Update - 13 years later

[mendeleyev]

Northkape, if there is one thing I've learned about Russian women over the years is that if she wants to leave, she will leave. There is no hanging around. However if she stays, she wants you to change. Failure to pursue her not only makes her lose respect for you, but it causes her to lose respect for herself.

When a RW gives you a warning, it is an opening for you to win back her heart. Most men never get that chance.

Sadly it seems that most men aren't man enough to try either.

[missAmeno]

I wonder sometimes when reading the comments....
If it is the vivid imagination of other posters that is commented, or what I have written in my story.
...

Northkape, I have read what you wrote very carefully from beginning and my comments are based on what you wrote.
Your wife asked you to make some changes, you have failed (or may be didn't even try), she asked for divorce. It took you only a couple of months (or a bit more) after 13 years of marriage to decide seek new wife (shows just how much you valued your marriage and your wife). While your wife still drives 100km to work to have as much as possible time with family. Of course for the sake of boys she will talk with women you date but why would you put her through this? You saying you still love and care for her, so why do this to her? Paying back because she decided to leave? Yes, I understand that once you re-marry your new and ex wives will have to have good communication and understanding with each other because of boys. But no, she doesn't have to translate for you now, she doesn't have to be involved, you do not need to push in her face how fast she can be replaced.

Do you think when boys grow up they will not realize you have been dating other women while you and their mum were still living under same roof? Do you think they will take it as 'being protected'? Or as disrespect towards their mother?

[Boethius]

There will be no or very little pain for the boys the way me and Lena have arranged it.
I'm together with them several hours every day and know them very well.

All parents say this.  Especially when they are attempting to justify decisions which are for their benefit, rather than for that their children.

I prefer to live in a close family, where we are doing things together. Wether it is household duties or traveling.
In my opinion, I see this as the best solution for my boys also.
A decision Lena fully supports for the sake of the boys, as they will be living more with me than with her.

Do you really believe you will have a close family that is the best solution for your boys by introducing a new mother figure, and an instant step sibling. into their family?

Men here continually complain about how WW have lost "traditional family values".  Do any of you, on second marriages with your minor children in tow, or on third or fourth marriages, ever wonder why the progeny who have grown up under the shadow of such marriages become a little jaded about the "traditional family values" their parents foisted upon them?   

I'm not saying second marriages with children can't work, as I think they can, but kids never have a say in the matter.  They are presented with a done deed, and are expected to just accept it.  Let's not pretend this is an ideal situation for them, or, more to my point, that it is being done for them.  It's not.

[northkape]

Faux
You are reading to much into those words about Lena
There is no romantic love left between us, and hasn't been for a while.
And there are reasons why Lena wanted to divorce.
Reasons we don't fully agree on, but still prefer to keep private between the two of us.
Looking back, I see clearly, that I could have done more to prevent what happened.

As I have probably said before, Lena agrees that she might come knocking on the door at some point in the future.
But, she would regard me as foolish, and also hurting the boys unnecessarily, to wait for that to happen.

I was worried about my boys to start with, but no longer, we have been able to keep our friendly "family spirit" alive through all of this.
And I don't see that changing with a new wife having a friendly relationship with Lena.
Yes, there will be large changes in our family, but they will be prepared for it, and we are moving slowly.
They fully understand so far, that when Lena moves more permanently out of our house, they will be seeing her slightly less.

Natural
Thanks for the friendly words,, about Lena.
And without saying anything negatively about her,, I do agree that looks aren't always everything.
Yes, I do share your view about what is the most important thing in life.
About who is to judge, with no God present, that is for those being close to me to do, earning their respect, not through my words, but through my actions.

Pat
I do agree about the value of trip reports.... smile
It might help more men to plan for productive and successful trips.
There is an incredible amount of very good women above 35 with children, that would make for great partners to a lot of divorced lonely men in the western world.

MissA
When reading your words, it makes me wonder about how you are reading my words.
If you are writing those comments for me to take notice, I would kindly suggest a less resenting and hostile attitude in your "well meant" advice.

Lonedrake
I do understand that you trying to give advice based on the limited knowledge available.
But for me standing inside this situation, talking very openly with an intelligent and reasonable young woman, over a long period of time,
where we both understand each others views quite good, I think it is on the verge of being impossible, for an outsider to advice me at all.
But we are slowly making progress, which might or not, end in a marriage if she is the one I decide upon.
Having numerous profiles on the Internet and being listed with several "niche" marriage agencies in Kiev, looking first and foremost for a Ukraine man,
she understands the game very well, and have no naive illusions about how the cards are played out, after numerous meetings in the last two years.

Mendy
I do respect your deep understanding of Russian women in general...
It might not ever be possible for me to attain your level of understanding, but I still feel like having one up on you in understanding my own wife,,,,, or?
And in general when trying to get through with advice on a personal level, I would advise a slight rewriting of your last sentence. smiles...

Bo
Not that I read all that is written on this forum, but at times you appear to be somewhat sensible in your way of commenting.

The art of criticizing while gaining respect is difficult enough face to face with people you are familiar with.
On a forum through words alone to persons you know little or nothing about, it is more than just difficult.

From my personal experience, showing respect before criticizing can help in making it worthwhile to write at all.
All people, including you and me, feel themselves as individual beings, and dislikes being dumped into blanket categories like: "all parents"
Going on with statements that your views are unquestionable right, and learning them top - down,, don't resonate well with me at least.

I feel myself like having a rich and multi flavored life experience at the age of 58, and if I truly didn't believe I was doing the right things for my family, I wouldn't be doing it.
For me to have an abundance of energy, joy and happiness available for my boys to share, I need to feel happiness myself also,
and this is where a new woman in my life can fill the void left in my soul.
Her bringing another (younger) child into our family is an extra bonus that I am very excited about.
My boys will be there to help me along,,, they are always happy whenever they can help their dad, and won't ever do anything to hurt me.

[Doll]

This is meant as a sincere question, as I don't get it.  How can you be truly and deeply in love and not have that love last?  How does someone who is deeply in love fall out of love to the point of splitting, even breaking a family?

It is simple- all these "loved ones" at some pont got OUT of Kape's control.
Did I miss something? Is Kape divorced already?

[Doll]

MissA
When reading your words, it makes me wonder about how you are reading my words.
If you are writing those comments for me to take notice, I would kindly suggest a less resenting and hostile attitude in your "well meant" advice.

 

What is it? You're telling the board member how to write and what to write?
BTW she is Russian and is writing in a "normal" Russian manner- she writes what she things.
Pleeeeeeeeease!))

[missAmeno]

Northkape, I don't do sugar coating, never did and came to the point of realizing I never will be able to attain even basic skills in it. I do not resent your actions and/or words and I do not have hostile attitude. If I did my posts would have been very different.


I do get it, your marriage is over, there is no way back, only forward. I do understand desire to share your life with someone, I do understand desire to be happy.

I know a couple who also after deciding to divorce carried on living together for some time for the sake of kids. Slowly making changes in daily life and making sure their kids will not be hurt by decision they have made.

Still I believe you should have spared your wife (and her parents) from being involved in your search of SO. Still I believe you should have not at any circumstances disclosed personal details of your wife/kids on net. Still I believe prior getting into any new relationship (even if it is long distance relationship) you should separate with your wife (meaning stop living together). And also think over and over again about impact on your boys of new wife and her child.

The couple that I have mentioned above after they decided to divorce kept it secret for some time, only relatives and few close friends have been aware about their decision. They slowly introduced changes into their daily lives. I do not know if either of them was involved with anyone else, if they were they were very discreet about it. Then he bought new house close by and their kids have been spending time equally at both homes, getting used to concept of parents not living together anymore. I believe over that time they slowly started dating others but still it was all very discreet. Now both of them in serious relationship, she has new partner living with her and kids, he moved out to another city and lives with his new partner. It took them about 2 years to execute this, their kids got older in mean time and get used to concept that their parents not together anymore.

By your writing it seems that you plan after you finally start to live separately with your ex new wife will come into picture as soon as possible. If that is what you are thinking to do then please rethink because it will cause more damage than good. It will take time for kids to adjust to the concept of you and their mum not being together anymore. Giving them new mum in that period of time could make them resent her and possibly you also. Regardless how much you know your kids you can not fully predict their emotions and reaction to change of circumstances.

[Doll]

   
 
     
 
Bo
Not that I read all that is written on this forum, but at times you appear to be somewhat sensible in your way of commenting.

The art of criticizing while gaining respect is difficult enough face to face with people you are familiar with.
On a forum through words alone to persons you know little or nothing about, it is more than just difficult.

   

Same again.
North, it is a public forum- this is one. Two- all the RW comment same way, they have the same reaction on your "romanticized " image".
We, Russian women, can EASILY see what stands behind your "trip reports" and Lena's behavior.
 You're tormenting both Lena and the kids.
The woman who will be your next wife will have her "rude awakening" VERY soon.
Or I don't know FSU women at all.

[Doll]

(no sugarcoating either)))
MissAmeno, my vision of the situation: I don't think Kape cares too much about how the kids feel, leave   Lena (and her parents) alone.
He is doing what HE wants to do- to continue to control everybody around.
Again, we, RW, know VERY well what it is- to have two kids of this age and to have to live without them.
We know what Lena is getting though. She is getting though hell and this "hell" will last for the rest of her life.
The fact she is "helping" North to date means she is SCARED and lives under a huge stress and control.
No doubt about it (unless she is the worst woman on this planet).
I can't see ANYTHING 'civil" about what Kape is doing. Nothing.

[Fashionista]

North, your wife has been seeing someone in Oslo? That would certainly explain this very strange story...

[Doll]

IMHO, it suggests that the OP holds their children as hostages in this situation: if the wife doesn't cooperate, the OP has all means to make the divorce and custody process very difficult for her. Also, perhaps she thinks that in this way she can at least have a say in picking the "least evil" as a stepmother for her children. This isn't friendship, this is an extreme egoism on OPs part and inability to see behind his own whims and desires, it's his eagerness to sacrifice anything, including the happiness of his children for satisfying his selfish little egotistic needs. The OP is insensitive to the feelings and needs of everyone else (his wife, his children, the women he is dating), but his own. And he is sugar-coating his egoism and cynical attitude as "friendship" and "perfect relationship."

Come on, guys. In your cheer-leading, imagine the reverse situation: a couple is on the rocks and discusses divorce after 13 years of marriage, there are two teenage sons, husband initiated divorce. Wife tells him: OK, I'll grant you a divorce, but I have my needs, so how about you will help me to find the new husband? Also, I need to let you know that the guys I am shagging now will be calling you at random times to ask for references for me, and also I have prepared the video presentation of our home and our children that I am showing to all the guys I am screwing while traveling through the country. I have several cities in my tour and likely I'll have sex in every one of 3-5 cities I plan to visit, it's possible that I'll have sex with several different people in the same city. Here are the photos of the guys I had sex with, here are the photos of the guys I will have sex with, - as you can see, they are all younger than you and are in a perfect physical shape, also they are very hot in bed. I'm sure you do not mind me telling you all these details because we are such wonderful friends with you and I feel I can share with you everything. Also, since you decided to divorce me, I feel that I am free to do anything I want now, and as  woman I have my sexual and other needs, and I need to find a new husband ASAP. That's ok that our divorce is not finalized yet. Oh, wait, we have not even applied for divorce yet. But we are going to file the separation papers soon. Some time soon. Maybe in half a year, perhaps longer.

What would you say about such woman?
Now, what makes the OP so much different? The fact that he has balls and thus has some sort of special rights?

+100

[Faux Pas]

Faux
You are reading to much into those words about Lena
There is no romantic love left between us, and hasn't been for a while.
And there are reasons why Lena wanted to divorce.
Reasons we don't fully agree on, but still prefer to keep private between the two of us.
Looking back, I see clearly, that I could have done more to prevent what happened.

As I have probably said before, Lena agrees that she might come knocking on the door at some point in the future.
But, she would regard me as foolish, and also hurting the boys unnecessarily, to wait for that to happen.

I was worried about my boys to start with, but no longer, we have been able to keep our friendly "family spirit" alive through all of this.
And I don't see that changing with a new wife having a friendly relationship with Lena.
Yes, there will be large changes in our family, but they will be prepared for it, and we are moving slowly.
They fully understand so far, that when Lena moves more permanently out of our house, they will be seeing her slightly less.


There is an incredible amount of very good women above 35 with children, that would make for great partners to a lot of divorced lonely men in the western world.

Those words that you've written is all I have to make any assumptions on. Those are your words there guy, not mine. Either you wrote them as a lie or it is how you feel, no? True enough you've stated that there are other things at play that you haven't discussed. I won't venture to guess what those are but, I will give you this, if Lena has checked out of the marriage there isn't much you can do. However, there is nothing at all wrong in fighting for your marriage and your family. Winning her back is always an option. If she is the woman you've stated she is, it is what she wants as well. There is nothing you've written about Lena that would indicate she has checked out rather than just her playing with the cards you've dealt her.

In 5 or 10 years you'll be looking back to this period in your life and doing the "what if", "would'a, could'a, should'a" analysis as you are doing now. Hopefully, you'll still have the same relationship with your sons and Lena as well as the new woman and her brood.

Marriage sometimes can be very hard work. Especially when it plays against some personal goals or desires. Cutting your losses and moving on to the next new romance is the lazy way out IMHO. Hanging in there and making it work even if you have to do things and accept some things you don't like to keep your family together is the truer definition of a great father, husband and man. It's up to you to keep the family together. Expending your time, energy and resources doing that, is a much better lesson for you to be teaching those sons than the lesson you are teaching them now IMHO

[Doll]

Faux, can you please explain a dumb Russian woman (me) what lesson he is teaching his sons?

[Doll]

They fully understand so far, that when Lena moves more permanently out of our house, they will be seeing her slightly less.

This tricky English! "Slightly less" when the mother lives 100 km away?
Sugar coating it is.
It is a huge drama pending, guys.
Like I said, Lena is not AM or WW- she is a FSU woman. This is the end of the world for her AND the boys.
Kape, wait till your sons are 15-16 yo.
You'll see all this "slightly less" and I don't want then to be in your shoes.

[Gator]

Mies, Miss Ameno, and Doll:

The three of you (and some men) state that Northkape is "tormenting" his UW wife Lena.    I believe Lena did as much as Norhkape in creating this odd situation. 

My opinion is based on my very similar experience with the mother of my sons.  This will take some explanation. 


As with any divorce, Lena and Northkape clearly have some major differences.  Northkape is a gentleman and will not discuss the differences in public.   It is apparent that they have both tried to resolve the differences, particularly given the concern for their children.   

Lena wants a new life.  To start her new life, Lena has decided to move 100km to Oslo (something about her career).  It suggests that Lena feels any more effort to resolve their differences is futile.   Also, Lena wants the separation to be amicable. 

Can we assume that as in most divorces, it is impossible to prove that one party is more responsible or at fault for the end of the marriage than the other.   Both Lena and Northkape share responsibility.   So let us not blame Northkape for the divorce, nor blame Lena. 

Here is the critical fact:  The children remain with Northkape. How many women move away from their children and leave them with the father?   This fact is fundamental to understanding the relationship dynamics taking place.   This was the same as my divorce.  Based on my experiences and what I read from Northkape, it is apparent to me that:

-  Lena trusts Northkape to take responsibility for 90% of the parental duties.

-  Thus, we can assume that Northkape is a family man, something he has stated repeatedly.

-  Being a family man with teenagers who could use some maternal nurturing,  Northkape wants to remarry rather than become a committed bachelor dating many, many women.

-  Lena feels some guilt about abandoning Northkape, and she wants him to find a good wife so that he will be happy, stable, etc. (all important to being a good father).

-  Because of the exemplary qualities of Lena, Northkape is interested in marrying a UW.

-  Lena is in a good position to judge whether a particular UW would be good for Northkape, and Lena does not want the turmoil of a bad second marriage in the Northkape household where her children will reside.

-  Thus,  she feels the need to help Northkape find a UW, she wants the opportunity to express her opinion, and she even welcomes the opportunity to meet prime candidates.   


The situation mirrors my divorce from the mother of my sons.   I did not want a divorce.  She did.   She eventually moved three hours away, leaving me with a 17-yo son who had a problem requiring much parental attention.  My ex-wife wanted stability at my home with her younger son, and she wanted me to find a good girlfriend.  As an example of this, upon a chance encounter with one woman I dated, she hugged her.  She always asked about whom I was dating and wanted to know details.  She was not shy about making suggestions.  Indirectly, she introduced me to RW when she showed me how to meet women on the Internet. 

If I had not had experienced the same situation as Northkape, I too would have some doubts. 

I do disagree with one aspect of Lena's and Northkape's situation.  They need to stop delaying the divorce.  Did you read Northkape's words:  " Lena agrees that she might come knocking on the door at some point in the future..."   Such delays the inevitable and gives Northkape false hope.   He and Lena need to start their new life now without any hangover of such false hopes.   Northkape needs to find a new wife without Lena's assistance.  For sure, he needs to proceed slowly. 

[Doll]

   

 
 
 

Here is the critical fact:  The children remain with Northkape. How many women move away from their children and leave them with the father?   This fact is fundamental to understanding the relationship dynamics taking place.    -  .   


   

Seriously- I have same question)) I actually know the answer- she HAS to move away, she was forced.
Do we know why they are divorcing other than "we're different"?
I forgot.

[lonedrake]

Northkape,

 Well I have to admit you are able to handle criticism extremely well.  You must also realize that this thread was very deceptive. It started out as an update about a love story. Then the truth came out that you were getting a divorce. It is very odd to say the least and to say many of us felt deceived is an understatement. This leads us to believe you are deceptive in other things as well. This may not be true.....but you are responsible for this.

 I also realize you are not lying, you are just not revealing all of the facts. It makes more sense and is more believable.

 I have a new picture of how things are really happening. Maybe it's not correct,but I will say it anyways. Maybe others see this also. Lena has moved on. She may have a new love in her live. She knows you are a good person and wants to see you happy. She also knows your happiness is better for the children. The sooner she can help you find love the easier her life will be. I also suspect there is some depression on your part and she is aware of this. It is in her best interest and the interest of her children to help you find a new love.

[Doll]

   I have a new picture of how things are really happening. Maybe it's not correct,but I will say it anyways. Maybe others see this also. Lena has moved on. She may have a new love in her live. She knows you are a good person and wants to see you happy. She also knows your happiness is better for the children. The sooner she can help you find love the easier her life will be. I also suspect there is some depression on your part and she is aware of this. It is in her best interest and the interest of her children to help you find a new love.

I disagree.
Only something horrible can force the FSU woman out of her family and away from her kids.

[Gator]

Seriously- I have same question)) I actually know the answer- she HAS to move away, she was forced.

She was forced?  No way Doll.   You are grasping for straws, and I understand the need to say this because abandoning the children seems so unnatural for a FSUW.

I recall that Northkape wrote Lena is moving to facilitate her professional career (evidently Oslo has better career opportunities for her than Northkape's city).


I did not force my ex-wife to move.  She deemed it necessary for two reasons:  her health and to facilitate starting a new life.

I know of a family in Russia where the mother abandoned her three children and the father raised them.  My wife says all the  kids have grown up to be good adults.  I met one and agree.  It happens. 
 

Do we know why they are divorcing other than "we're different"?
I forgot.

I and others have asked Northkape.  He is not disclosing the reasons, and I commend him for keeping it private.  He did say that he disagreed with the reasons and that he could have done more in the past.  All of us with failed relationships could have done more.  Yes?

[flitabout62]

I wasn't going to post on this thread, simply because I have a bit of an odd feeling in my gut about the other person when I began reading  it days before.  But know I must say my piece.  Also, maybe I'm much less experienced in relationships in general, but my preference for privacy and maintaining privacy is a core value of mine and I view this post from this position. 

Northkape, I find it unusual that you come back 13 years later to post all of these details of you and your wife after you profess that it is over between you. Certainly, you don't need encouragement that you are doing the right thing.  Relationships end all the time for many different reasons and you are clearly a man who is confident he knows best how to live his own life.  But I believe that your wife might value her privacy more than you value her privacy during this difficult time.  I want to be clear, after 13 years, this break up is more difficult on her than you.  Even if there is fault on both sides, she might see this as a much more significant failure than you.  So why drag her through the mud in a seemingly positive post from your perspective? 

[Doll]

She was forced?  No way Doll.   You are grasping for straws, and I understand the need to say this because abandoning the children seems so unnatural for a FSUW.

I recall that Northkape wrote Lena is moving to facilitate her professional career (evidently Oslo has better career opportunities for her than Northkape's city).

What "no way"? Lena willingly left her sons? BS. It is 0.0000000% chance.
Stuff in bold font is sugar coating  or *&#$%$.
I've learned to comprehend what people imply behind they words.
Look at the ACTIONS not words!
Kape is misbehaving as a married man and Lena is slaving for him out of fear.
A married man is dating tens of women? Give me a brake.
Trust me- I am smelling the blackmail big time.

[Doll]

flitabout62, you'r  asking why Kape is back with his story after 13 years?
He knows he is doing something awfully wrong so he wants support.
Like somebody said, cheer leading.
 
Plus he wants to picture himself very positive and attractive.
Sorry, none of Russian board members have bought it.

[lonedrake]

What "no way"? Lena willingly left her sons? BS. It is 0.0000000% chance.
Stuff in bold font is sugar coating  or *&#$%$.
I've learned to comprehend what people imply behind they words.
Look at the ACTIONS not words!
Kape is misbehaving as a married man and Lena is slaving for him out of fear.
A married man is dating tens of women? Give me a brake.
Trust me- I am smelling the blackmail big time.

 Doll, We are all speculating as all the facts are not present.

 Here is an alternate theory. Lena gets work in Oslo. She falls in love with another man. Northkape is depressed and expresses suicidal thoughts. He constantly begs for her to come back. She feels guilt and looks for the best way to move on.

How do you explain that he was welcomed by her parents?

[Doll]

  How do you explain that he was welcomed by her parents?

They don't know.

[Doll]

   Here is an alternate theory. Lena gets work in Oslo. She falls in love with another man. Northkape is depressed and expresses suicidal thoughts. He constantly begs for her to come back. She feels guilt and looks for the best way to move on.

How do you explain that he was welcomed by her parents?

Possible.
You're right- the facts are not presented.