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Author Topic: Update - 13 years later  (Read 212969 times)

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Offline Gator

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #275 on: December 15, 2013, 12:02:54 PM »
Natural posted something this summer that adds to today's discussion.


 

Don't worry, Norway is about the most feminine country there is and if it's a battle between the parents, the mother would be pretty messed up on drugs or something not to get the children. "My kids"? It's their kids together if I understand it correctly.
Divorce proceedings are pretty straightforward and the authorities does not meddle unless there is a conflict. It's a mandatory 1-year "separation" time though. The idea is, I guess, to facilitate some time that hopefully the couple might decide to continue the marriage.

Thus, Northkape and Lena can not divorce until she lived in Oslo for one year.  Also, if she wanted the children, she would get custody of them.  Who knows, maybe in a year upon divorce she will want to take them to Oslo.   


Offline jone

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #276 on: December 15, 2013, 12:05:58 PM »
I have no idea why some people post the things they do on this forum.  I would guess that some post to assist others, some ask questions, hoping to glean some assistance for their own pursuit of happiness while others enjoy the idea of shooting down those who come on here with naive ideas of how to capture the elusive RussBabe.

However this is one thread that has confused me to the point that I, like many others on the forum, felt dragged through the mud of one individual's confusion of what should happen when a marriage breaks up. 

When I was going through a marriage breakup, I wished that my mother was still alive.  She would have boxed me on the side of the head and said that anything I needed to do to resolve the marriage I should have done.  It may not have saved the marriage, but I would have looked at things with a much greater vision than I had looking at the trees instead of the forest.

Now we are all here reading this travesty of an individual and his irrational dealings with a marriage that is splitting up.  Some are cheerleaders.  Some are thoughtful provocateurs.  Others are armchair quarterbacks. 

But the simple fact is that a marriage that is breaking up is a train wreck.  There is no 'good' answer.  I know that sounds cliche, but until a marriage is over, it is still salvageable.   There have been no documents signed.  There is no legal separation.  There are only children and a wife.  If my mother were alive today and reading this, she would be boxing your ears, NorthKape and telling you to have a couple of glasses of wine, get down on your knees, and find a way to make it work with your current wife.  Notice I said on your knees.  Because only their can you truly find the humility that I believe you lack in addressing your current situation.

This is, after all, a forum.  There are reasons why we all contribute to it.  I wish someone would have told me to do this six or seven years ago.  I'm an intelligent guy.  And fairly sensitive.  But even with the amicable split that I had with my wife, my kids still went through hell.  And you haven't (according to you) even disclosed to them what is in the offing.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #277 on: December 15, 2013, 12:14:17 PM »
Boe, Northkape posted
Quote
For me to have an abundance of energy, joy and happiness available for my boys to share, I need to feel happiness myself also,
and this is where a new woman in my life can fill the void left in my soul.

I am on the fence about it. If it would have came from the guy who divorced some time ago it would have been different picture. As it coming from someone who is still sharing the roof with his wife it is open to different interpretations and must of them to be honest are not very nice.
Whatever it is, I think Northkape should slow down and figure out his own feelings first. He shouldn't jump into new relationship to prove anything to anyone including himself. And if he believes he is doing what he is doing for the right reasons then he at least should be more considerate to the feelings of those who surround him including his wife.

Offline Gator

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #278 on: December 15, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »
I wish someone would have told me to do this six or seven years ago.  I'm an intelligent guy.  And fairly sensitive.  But even with the amicable split that I had with my wife, my kids still went through hell.

You make it seem as if you feel full responsibility for the divorce.  If in hindsight you believe your marriage was really worth salvaging 6 years ago, what is preventing you today form renewing the relationship? 

If OTOH you and your wife were miserable years ago, you should have divorced if indeed you had taken reasonable steps then to reconcile.  I say that because I am sure you would be just as miserable today unless there is more to the story.   

Jone, it is over.  You can not turn back the clock.  I am sure you learned from the experience.  Onward and upward!

Are you ready to have a relationship with a RW who will need 150%  from you if she marries you?


Quote
And you haven't (according to you) even disclosed to them what is in the offing.

And given their age they should not know while everything is in limbo.   
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 12:26:28 PM by Gator »

Offline jone

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #279 on: December 15, 2013, 12:35:35 PM »
You make it seem as if you feel full responsibility for the divorce.  If in hindsight you believe your marriage was really worth salvaging 6 years ago, what is preventing you today form renewing the relationship? 

If OTOH you and your wife were miserable years ago, you should have divorced if indeed you had taken reasonable steps then to reconcile.  I say that because I am sure you would be just as miserable today unless there is more to the story.   

Jone, it is over.  You can not turn back the clock.  I am sure you learned from the experience.  Onward and upward!

Are you ready to have a relationship with a RW who will need 150%  from you if she marries you?


And given their age they should not know while everything is in limbo.

It is, as they say, ancient history. 

But the marriage of the OP is not over.   Hell, they aren't even separated yet!

To quote the illustrious Winston Churchill,  "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. But it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."

I would wish, for the OP, that if there is only a two percent chance that he can be happy in his current marriage, that he explore that two percent to the utmost of his ability, until the day that the marriage is over and that he is legally divorced.  If not, at least until the time that they are separated.

Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline Fashionista

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #280 on: December 15, 2013, 12:41:41 PM »
I know that sounds cliche, but until a marriage is over, it is still salvageable.   There have been no documents signed.  There is no legal separation.  There are only children and a wife.  If my mother were alive today and reading this, she would be boxing your ears, NorthKape and telling you to have a couple of glasses of wine, get down on your knees, and find a way to make it work with your current wife.  Notice I said on your knees.  Because only their can you truly find the humility that I believe you lack in addressing your current situation.



One thing I would recommend to better understand a Russian person  - don't cling to legal aspects. The marriage can be over long before any papers are signed, who cares about papers anyway.  Not in Russia.
Find your inner Bart!

Offline Daveman

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #281 on: December 15, 2013, 12:42:04 PM »

Quote

Boe, Northkape posted
Quote
For me to have an abundance of energy, joy and happiness available for my boys to share, I need to feel happiness myself also, and this is where a new woman in my life can fill the void left in my soul.
I am on the fence about it. If it would have came from the guy who divorced some time ago it would have been different picture. As it coming from someone who is still sharing the roof with his wife it is open to different interpretations and must of them to be honest are not very nice. Whatever it is, I think Northkape should slow down and figure out his own feelings first. He shouldn't jump into new relationship to prove anything to anyone including himself. And if he believes he is doing what he is doing for the right reasons then he at least should be more considerate to the feelings of those who surround him including his wife.



And therein lies the crux.  She's (seemingly) moved on or at least well into the process. He hasn't. 


If I had to venture a guess, I'd apply the cutting edge of Occam's Razor.  His behavior is most likely driven by that void in his soul. Pain is a powerful motivator. From one side, he can exact a little revenge for the hurt by involving the wife/in laws (and perhaps by this very thread, in all its aspects), which in itself can be a perceived yet temporary analgesic. The other side - perhaps, from his perspective, he can end that hurt of the void with a replacement woman.  Of course that rarely works long term.
The duty of a true patriot is to protect his country from its government. -- Thomas Paine

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #282 on: December 15, 2013, 12:48:19 PM »
I don't know and wouldn't even pretend to know at what point NK needs to turn, cut bait and run. Only he knows that. But, with a pair of 10 year old twins and the fondness (he claims) he and soon to be ex still share, if it were me, I'd be doing everything I could possibly do to rejuvenate this marriage. It really doesn't sound like Lena has moved on, rather accepting the situation. Perhaps she made the ultimatum and he didn't comply.

NK AFAIK hasn't put the ending of this marriage in a time frame. He may have already did as I am encouraging him to do now. I do not know. Either way, him traveling the countryside of Ukraine looking for Lena's replacement, while still married to Lena doesn't indicate that he has. Think about that just a minute, he's looking vigorously for her replacement. Perhaps he finds doing that much easier than at least attempting to hold on to the original. Working to save the marriage is much better use of his time resources if, his children are actually his #1 priority

Offline jone

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #283 on: December 15, 2013, 12:51:57 PM »

One thing I would recommend to better understand a Russian person  - don't cling to legal aspects. The marriage can be over long before any papers are signed, who cares about papers anyway.  Not in Russia.

Agreed....... and I do understand Russian women better than many.  But we haven't been told the whole story here.   And she has yet to move out, although has sufficient resources.  The Russian women I know would have been out the door and taken their kids with them.  Something about this pickled herring does not smell right.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #284 on: December 15, 2013, 01:04:56 PM »
And therein lies the crux.  She's (seemingly) moved on or at least well into the process. He hasn't. 

No, she isn't. She still drives 100km to be with them as much as possible. Perhaps Northkape could say how many weekends so far she spend with boys in Oslo (without him)?

Offline Daveman

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #285 on: December 15, 2013, 01:15:12 PM »
No, she isn't. She still drives 100km to be with them as much as possible. Perhaps Northkape could say how many weekends so far she spend with boys in Oslo (without him)?


To be with their kids.  Otherwise, she's playing a manipulation game with him as well - change and maybe I'll come back.


The simplest explanation is still the most viable.  She want's a different life. He doesn't.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 01:17:23 PM by Daveman »
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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #286 on: December 15, 2013, 01:24:43 PM »

To be with their kids.  Otherwise, she's playing a manipulation game with him as well - change and maybe I'll come back.


The simplest explanation is still the most viable.  She want's a different life. He doesn't.

As long as we're left to guess, I like the ultimatum angle  :D

Do this or I'm outta here. He didn't and she is

Offline jone

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #287 on: December 15, 2013, 01:27:46 PM »
Hmm,

With the pictures of him with his ex-girlfriends and with all the women he's dragged through this thread, I wonder what the ultimatum could have been?

(Tom, I'm stealing your lines.)
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #288 on: December 15, 2013, 01:37:33 PM »

To be with their kids.  Otherwise, she's playing a manipulation game with him as well - change and maybe I'll come back.


If to be with kids then she could have been with kids every weekend in Oslo not in NorthKape's home.

You could be right about manipulation but also she may have realized she made wrong decision or she is finding hard to actually let go and move on or many other options. Whatever it is, she has her own place for few months now and still didn't move out.

Anyhow, I do not think either of them is completely moved on. Their actions are far from actions taken by two pragmatic individuals as Northkape wish to convince himself. 

Online northkape

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #289 on: December 15, 2013, 02:06:40 PM »
Doll
I don't get it...
If you are writing for you own pleasure, and don't except me to answer..... well ....

MissA
Thanks for your polite and friendly answer..... smile  (I wrote this earlier in the day, I took a quick look through here just now.... and..... ok)

Me and Lena decided to divorce at the end of November 2012, we filed the separation papers in the beginning of August 2013,
the earliest I can have the paperwork ready for marrying again is in the middle of August 2014,
the earliest it would be possible to marry in Zags would probably be in the middle of September 2014,
all paperwork and waiting time is at the minimum another 6-8 months.
Meaning it would be unrealistic to expect a "new wife" living together with me before early summer 2015.
That will be more than two and a half years after our decision to divorce.

And we kept the divorce secret for a long time, our friends and Lena's family got to know, but my family still doesn't know.
My father died this summer and I am afraid my mother might die from the loss of him as well.
So I see no reason to make her feel even more sad about us, before the actual divorce is final.

It's not much different from your story is it...?

And I can't see much in the way of personal details about Lena and my boys,,
that is much different from what she used to have on her open Facebook page.

But she is no longer allowed to have personal info about her family on the Internet,
because of her starting to work in the justice department.
She is working with uncovering organized economical crime, done by illegal immigrants into Norway.
(Might influence some of the info here also at some point)

Fashion
I don't know what results she has so far in finding a man...
But I guess she would have told me if there was anyone worth telling about..
-
If she hadn't started working in Oslo, we would still be married, in my opinion.
There area a lot of factors at play here,, that facilitated the actual outcome.

Offline Gator

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #290 on: December 15, 2013, 02:37:19 PM »

If she hadn't started working in Oslo, we would still be married, in my opinion.


This is news, suggesting that you and Lena are compatible other than workplace.  Why not move to Oslo and keep your family intact?   Surely  it isn't just about money?

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #291 on: December 15, 2013, 02:53:28 PM »
It's not much different from your story is it...?

No, it is not. You explained some important details now and I understand both of you better. Now there is only one question. Why you didn't want to move to Oslo? I understand it would have more likely completely changed lifestyle you all have use to but still that couldn't be the answer.

Offline Jumper

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #292 on: December 15, 2013, 02:54:43 PM »
Odd story for sure.
 It is unusual  for a woman to not want primary custody ,and even more unusual for her to help an ex  find a new wife/step mother,  for her children that will live with the ex , no matter how amicable the divorce or pragmatic the person might be.Children generally bring out strong possessive and protective emotions.

My suggestion is Northkape date/marry  Lena's mother.(if single)
If  using  a truly pragmatic approach as mentioned prior,and what started this whole adventure,
is this not the best all the way around?For ex ,for children ,for NK?

 :P  
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 02:58:34 PM by Jumper »
.

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #293 on: December 15, 2013, 07:13:56 PM »
So Lena left Ukraine to live with the OP in Norway and become his wife and mother of his children...

Northkape would much rather forego the family life and lose the wife and the mother of his children than to move to Oslo..

Okidokee! There you have it! That's life. Call him selfish or anything else you'd like, bottom line is that's a small pill to swallow for him than to apparently convince him to move to Oslo and lose the potential of bedding a new and much younger woman with new set of tits, new smell, new body to explore and not the 13 year ol' same ol, same old.

Then in between, he'll still have the woman look after his kids after she gets cleaned up so he can then do what ever he needs to do. Lena's is likely more Norwegian now than Ukrainian which is why she isn't putting up with it anymore.

No need to psychoanalyze any of this. Besides, it's always funny to me how so many relationship experts there really are in the forum built for the MOB context, LOL.

Alcoholics telling us how to be sober. OK.

Anywho...I'm not so sure what's so shocking for anyone here really. The bottom line is, Ukraine, like all the other MOB region, enables these types of things to happen. The OP knows full well a local woman would not put up with this silliness, so he goes back and fishes in Ukraine.

For some sanity, can people please refrain from saying 'FSUWs this, FSUWs that, blah, blah, blah...the bottom line is, a FSUW is enabling the OP to find his new wife in her country. a FSUW is apparently ready to 'give-up' her children to seek her personal identity living in OSLO on her own. FSUWs are currently meeting/participating/cajoling/ entertaining the very same MAN you folks are telling that FSUWs won't do, blah, blah, blah, blah..

The FSU is one of the orphan capital of the world so likely MANY FSUWs have no problem abandoning their children, OK? Many of you may not like how that sounds and many will get their panties all tied-up, but that's a fact.

Besides, a whole load of you have done the do-over thing, no? Some even within months, LOL. So what's the bid deal? Northkape is just one of the many, is all...

Why? Because he can. Why? Because places like Ukraine enables men like him. Like it or not, that's just the way it is.

So many marriage therapists, relationship experts...yet no one is getting paid for it.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2013, 07:31:53 PM by GQBlues »
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Online northkape

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #294 on: December 15, 2013, 07:43:44 PM »
Faux P
Sorry, but I'm at a loss in finding a path to express my views in such a way that they can't be "misunderstood".
Lena has checked out of the marriage, period, and there is nothing more that can be done about that.
Even if given the option to return, I'm now starting to doubt that it would have been a better solution for our boys.

Gator
Your layout is as close to the truth as it could possibly be, based on my written story.
There is of course a lot more to it, that would take forever to explain in detail, but I will fill in some of the missing pieces..
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
It is apparent that they have both tried to resolve the differences, particularly given the concern for their children.

Yes, of course, she warned me early about what was to happen, but when she told me that she wanted to divorce,
she had already made up her mind and her decision was not up for discussion at all.
She is leaving,, trust me, there is no turning back when she has made up her mind, there never was.   

Lena wants a new life.  To start her new life, Lena has decided to move 100km to Oslo (something about her career).  It suggests that Lena feels any more effort to resolve their differences is futile.   Also, Lena wants the separation to be amicable
 
She was already working in Oslo when she decided about the divorce. She wants a refresh on her life, for several reasons, me being one of them.
Taking our boys away from their private school, their piano teacher, paint teacher and gymnastics teacher would be over her dead body.
These teachers are all personal friends of us, and have been together with our boys since they were four years old.
It's impossible for an outsider to understand our relationship with them, and their love for our boys.
So let this be very clear, she wants the boys to stay here in my hometown with me, whatever happens in the future.
Our boys are Lena's greatest pride and joy, and she (and me too) wants them to excel and participate in a broad range of activities,,
it's not enough for her that they are best of class in everything at school..... smile...
These goals can't be achieved without me, as I'm instrumental in being able to motivate them to participate and enjoy all of the hard work being laid on their shoulders.
Also, I make sure that they understand that they are free to quit at any time, so that they aren't feeling any pressure to perform.
Lena sees clearly how I'm able to connect with them and stay close to them, understanding the strength of the bonds between me and our boys.

Second after the boys comes her newfound career path, which she has worked so hard for, through many years of re-educating.
If I hadn't been willing to take care of the boys, she would have to end her career and find work in my hometown.
Since I was helping her all along to make plans, and seeing in her eyes the dreams about her future,
I knew that ending her career, would have crushed her heart in more ways than one. 
 
-  Being a family man with teenagers who could use some maternal nurturing,  Northkape wants to remarry rather than become a committed bachelor dating many, many women.

That's absolutely right, I was always a "one woman man" and short time relationships are not for me.

-  Lena feels some guilt about abandoning Northkape, and she wants him to find a good wife so that he will be happy, stable, etc. (all important to being a good father).

No, Lena has absolutely no feelings of guilt, but just as I would like to see her happy, she wants the same for me.

-  Thus,  she feels the need to help Northkape find a UW, she wants the opportunity to express her opinion, and she even welcomes the opportunity to meet prime candidates.

No, she knows perfectly well that I'm able to find the woman I want on my own. But she will gladly help me, with being available on the phone for a woman interested in me. 

:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

Lonedrake
Thanks for the kind words.
Read above for answers,,,
Depression me...? never going to happen,,, if I ever had a bad day in my life, it's long since forgotten.

Why I was welcomed by Lena's parents?
They are very good friends, and especially Lena's mother likes me very much..
Truth is, they would be very disappointed if I didn't come to stay with them.
I wasn't feeling 100% comfortable about it, but Lena made me change my mind.
Without wanting to brag about good deeds, I think they also wants to show their gratitude,
and help me as much as they are able to, as a "thank you" for things that happened in our past.

more later

Offline ML

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #295 on: December 15, 2013, 08:17:15 PM »

One thing I would recommend to better understand a Russian person  - don't cling to legal aspects. The marriage can be over long before any papers are signed, who cares about papers anyway.  Not in Russia.

Yes, I had some fairly serious involvement with two Ukrainian women; and found out several dates in that they were actually still legally married.

When I expressed my surprise, they both said something like:  Oh but my marriage has been over for X months.  We are living in separate rooms in our 2-3 room apartment.  Will get divorced when we can sell the apartment.
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline Doll

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #296 on: December 15, 2013, 08:47:50 PM »
Doll
I don't get it...
If you are writing for you own pleasure, and don't except me to answer..... well ....

     
You mean "expect"?

Offline ML

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #297 on: December 15, 2013, 09:05:04 PM »
You mean "expect"?

Maybe this is an exception to the expect idea.

Expect acceptances except when you have no reason to accept the other's expectation of whether you accept their exceptions of your expectations.

OK, time to get back to Sunday night football.
A beautiful woman is pleasant to look at, but it is easier to live with a pleasant acting one.

Offline Gator

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #298 on: December 15, 2013, 09:14:02 PM »

Gator
Your layout is as close to the truth as it could possibly be, based on my written story.
There is of course a lot more to it, that would take forever to explain in detail, but I will fill in some of the missing pieces....


The reason I was able to make a reasonable guess about the dynamics in your relationship is the fact that my own divorce was so similar (my ex-wife left, and my sons stayed).

You say Lena felt no guilt, and I believe you.  Perhaps my ex-wife did not feel guilt as well, and helping me was simply an expression of her pathologically nice personality  ;)

I really appreciate your elaboration of why the boys have stayed with you and did not move to Oslo.  Lena knows the divorce will be difficult for your sons.  By staying with you the boys keep their support of friends and network of private teachers in piano, art, gymnastics, etc.  This is a good plan, which can be modified as the boys get older (e. g., prep school in Oslo).    BTW, I commend you for spending the money to give your boys a private school education plus worldly extracurricular activities.   

I hope FSUW such as Doll can now understand and accept the fact that you will be the primary parent for your sons.    In essence, Lena trusts you to be a good father.  In contrast, I have met very few FSUW who would trust the father of their children with primary custody.   

Many people have painted you as a troubled if not bad man.  Please forgive us as the Modus Operandi here is to make quick decisions.   And you must admit that your story is different from most divorces.  Nevertheless, based on what you have revealed, you seem to be well adjusted and doing the best you can for your boys and for yourself. 

I trust you are not clinging to the false hope that Lena is coming back.  She is a beautiful, competent woman, and she will meet someone in Oslo.  If he embraces her career as did you, she might let him stay around for companionship. 

Finally, I see that you are 58.  I was 56 when my wife and I started to live outside the marriage, 58 when she moved out and I first wrote a RW, 59 when I made my first trip to Russia, and 62 when I divorced.   Unlike you, I had no experience with RW.  I wish that your journey progresses faster and on a straighter line than my odyssey.

Good luck!


Offline fathertime

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Re: Update - 13 years later
« Reply #299 on: December 15, 2013, 09:46:41 PM »


But the simple fact is that a marriage that is breaking up is a train wreck.  There is no 'good' answer.  I know that sounds cliche, but until a marriage is over, it is still salvageable.   There have been no documents signed.  There is no legal separation.  There are only children and a wife.  If my mother were alive today and reading this, she would be boxing your ears, NorthKape and telling you to have a couple of glasses of wine, get down on your knees, and find a way to make it work with your current wife.  Notice I said on your knees.  Because only their can you truly find the humility that I believe you lack in addressing your current situation.

This is, after all, a forum.  There are reasons why we all contribute to it.  I wish someone would have told me to do this six or seven years ago.  I'm an intelligent guy.  And fairly sensitive.  But even with the amicable split that I had with my wife, my kids still went through hell.  And you haven't (according to you) even disclosed to them what is in the offing.


A trainwreck?  Really?  The end of this marriage doesn't sound like a train wreck to me.  I would think some of the features of a trainwreck would be a lot of anger and vengeful acts, lawyers, bickering, using the kids as weapons...that sorta thing.... From what I've read of this situation, it is a rather peaceful parting of the ways, for reasons we don't exactly know...


Regarding the children 'going through hell'...I don't know about that either...some kids are actually delighted when their parents divorce because sometimes people get along better when they are apart...


Not that I think NorthKape did all he could to keep the marriage together, or cared to the degree that maybe he should have..but that is just an unverifiable hunch...My feeling is, he probably had it within his control to keep the marriage together, but made a choice to cut bait...and maybe with good reason...hard to say.






Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

 

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