Update - 13 years later

[Gator]

Fathertime,

You are a very wise man.   You have learned much from your experiences.  I look forward to reading more of your posts.   

[mies]

Mies, Miss Ameno, and Doll:

The three of you (and some men) state that Northkape is "tormenting" his UW wife Lena.    I believe Lena did as much as Norhkape in creating this odd situation. 

My opinion is based on my very similar experience with the mother of my sons.  This will take some explanation. 

Here is the critical fact:  The children remain with Northkape.

>>>> The fact is critical, but this is the fact we are  hearing from the Northkape, we do not know how did they arrive at that decision, and even if the OP told us about it, it would be only his side of the story.

How many women move away from their children and leave them with the father?   This fact is fundamental to understanding the relationship dynamics taking place.   This was the same as my divorce.  Based on my experiences and what I read from Northkape, it is apparent to me that:

-  Lena trusts Northkape to take responsibility for 90% of the parental duties.

  >>> trusting the father and leaving children behind are not synonyms, we cannot put an equal sign between them.

-  Thus, we can assume that Northkape is a family man, something he has stated repeatedly.

>>> yeah, a good family man usually travels on sex tours picking new wife before he filed the divorce documents. A good family man also parades his past and future women before his (15-20 or so years younger) wife, as a constant reminder to her what a desirable catch he is.

-  Being a family man with teenagers who could use some maternal nurturing,  Northkape wants to remarry rather than become a committed bachelor dating many, many women.

>>> do you somehow imply that the mother role is easily substitutable by ANY reasonably normal woman?

-  Lena feels some guilt about abandoning Northkape, and she wants him to find a good wife so that he will be happy, stable, etc. (all important to being a good father).

>>> this is waaaay too much of an assumption about Lena feeling guilt and her motives.

-  Because of the exemplary qualities of Lena, Northkape is interested in marrying a UW.

>>> I would dare to make an assumption that perhaps Norwegian women (unlike the UW's OP is meeting) would not be too open to go out and discuss marriage plans with a man who is 20+ years older than them, and who is still married, and who has two 10yo sons living with him. But that's just me.

-  Lena is in a good position to judge whether a particular UW would be good for Northkape, and Lena does not want the turmoil of a bad second marriage in the Northkape household where her children will reside.

>>> I think Lena would prefer the boys to live with her and spare them the turmoil of dealing with a Ukrainian step-mother all together. But is she given such an option - we don't know.

-  Thus,  she feels the need to help Northkape find a UW, she wants the opportunity to express her opinion, and she even welcomes the opportunity to meet prime candidates.

  >>> pardon me for asking, did you, while going through your divorce, welcome the opportunity to meet prime candidates and sex-partners of your soon-to-be-ex wife and mother of your children? How would you feel about such situation?

The situation mirrors my divorce from the mother of my sons.

>>> not necessarily, because you are you, and the OP can be completely different from you. Also your wife was American, and Lena is Ukrainian. Not the same deal, Ukrainians and Russians have very different family dynamics and relationships between children and parents.

Northkape needs to find a new wife without Lena's assistance.  For sure, he needs to proceed slowly.  >>> what Northkape needs is to divorce his current wife, or at least to start the divorce with his current wife, before looking for a new wife.

[mies]

They don't know.

Or she begged her parents to cooperate to get the Northkape finally let her go and give him what he wants so that he would stop tormenting her.

[mies]

And I can't see much in the way of personal details about Lena and my boys,,
that is much different from what she used to have on her open Facebook page.

But she is no longer allowed to have personal info about her family on the Internet,
because of her starting to work in the justice department.
She is working with uncovering organized economical crime, done by illegal immigrants into Norway.

So you are posting this "on her behalf" to destroy her career? Is this what this whole thread is all about?!?
Seriously. On a public forum, all the information, the cheerful and friendly and wonderful you. Really?!
This is very low.

Moderators, in the light of the new information disclosed by the Northkape, would you think it is reasonable to remove personal details and photos from the "Lena story"?

[Doll]

Mies, Northkape is funny (not). If you click on his "nickname" you will find his website with his REAL name, then change Jan into Lena and you see the infor about her (with her pics).
(I invited her to RW forum BTW))))))).
 

[Doll]

Maybe this is an exception to the expect idea.

Expect acceptances except when you have no reason to accept the other's expectation of whether you accept their exceptions of your expectations.

OK, time to get back to Sunday night football.

[Ranetka]

That's absolutely right, I was always a "one woman man" and short time relationships are not for me.

Yeah, we know that.
 

Well I got my feet wet on that one.

In the following year I wrote with many and travelled to meet with some. Inviting those I really liked to come live with me for a couple of weeks while continuing to write all the time.
 Felt like an asshole dropping these beautiful, sincere young ladies off at the airport with a final goodbye, after having lived together with them for weeks. At least one was deeply hurt.

Took this 25 year old beauty along for a vacation in southern France. Sorry she was, when leaving for home after a month together.

[mies]

Mies, Northkape is funny (not). If you click on his "nickname" you will find his website with his REAL name, then change Jan into Lena and you see the infor about her (with her pics).
(I invited her to RW forum BTW))))))).

I think she is well-aware of the RWD by now, since it's the top 2nd and 3rd result when I searched her name on my iPhone. Right after the top 1st result: the "Travelogue" web site.
I also think she will not join the discussion (or else she would have joined it by now) - partly because they probably have some sort of "extortion agreement" designed by the OP, and partly because Lena wouldn't want to contribute anything about her life on a public forum, because the OP just told us she can't do that, because of her work requirements.

I still cannot believe what I am reading. So there is this poor woman whose only fault was to marry Northkape, give him two wonderful sons, and be a good wife to him for 13 years. She tolerated all his "in your face" women/girlfriends, and perhaps more than just that, she tried to be an achiever since the OP was constantly "stimulating" her with the stories of achievements of his ex. Then she does well: completes local education, finds great job, after Northkape refuses to cooperate on her requests - decides to move on. She takes down her public Facebook page, removes personal information from the internet since her employer requires her to do. And then her still husband tells her "Surprise surprise Lenochka, I know you are not allowed to keep your personal information in public access, so I've created a thread about you on the public forum, and am keeping the web site about us online, and I am not taking them down. Or maybe I will, maybe I won't."

And then this man comes to us, and lies to all of us that he is friends with his wife. Would a friend do something like that? Let alone husband and father of children they brought into this world together?

Maybe this is why Lena is so eager to cooperate with Northkape, maybe this is what she is afraid of - that he will keep posting more personal details and stories and photos and will populate the web with them to the point she will lose her job. Maybe he promised her to remove the web site and discussions from the web when he finds the new wife. Who knows.

This guy is 57, he has about +10 before his retirement. His wife is 36, she has 31 (!!!) years of productive career years ahead of her, she is so young, capable, beautiful and hardworking. And her "loving" husband decides, as the Russian saying goes  "так не достанься же ты никому". How??? How can anyone be that selfish and mean and just plain bad?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Mies, Northkape is funny (not). If you click on his "nickname" you will find his website with his REAL name, then change Jan into Lena and you see the infor about her (with her pics).
(I invited her to RW forum BTW))))))).

Involving yourself in a stranger's relationship is rather pathetic.  Maybe it is time you get a more productive hobby Doll.

[jone]

Doll,

I too disagree with your contact of the man's wife. 

[Ade]

Doll,

I too disagree with your contact of the man's wife.

So you don't agree that a woman with two young sons should be told her ex-husband is spreading her personal history around the net? Let's just leave a colleague of hers to stumble upon it one day, right? Not my problem, right? All arseholes united no matter what I guess.

Good for you Doll. No matter if this story is exactly like Jan states, his ex should be told that he's being free and easy with their story on an open forum.

[Gator]

Hello Ladies,

I am impressed by the degree of interest you have in this story.  Each of you raise valid points.  Do you believe your criticism of Northkape is totally accurate?  For  sure it is not balanced because none of you identify the good steps he is taking. 

For example, none of you commended him for agreeing to provide a majority of the parenting.  Many men, particularly in the FSU, tend to give their children after divorce a low priority, if not forget about them entirely.  Northkape knows that having young children at his advanced age is a disadvantage in finding a new wife, yet he wants his children to live with him.  Sweet suffering Jesus, you ladies need to acknowledge that.


My impression is that your thinking is tainted by your opinion that Northkape is a sex tourist.   Was he?  Is he?   

For sure he sampled a few damsels 14 years ago.   We do not know what he told these women, so how can we be sure he was dishonorable?  When questioned about sex in his string of current visits, he stated:

It was specifically important to avoid having sex as that would most certainly ruin my plans.

IMO Northkape is hurt by the divorce in three ways:  the loss of Lena, the breakup of his family, and the feeling that he is getting old.  The last point has prompted him to brag about the women he has known and the women he is meeting. 

For sure we can fault Northkape for his braggart style.  I have known many incredible women, yet I do not parade them around RWD.  In fact, very few RWD men have done this.    I consider this as his major fault.  And again I consider it more a testament to some shattered confidence than to a Don Juan libertine seducing women.   This issue is not uncommon, and I am sure he will reconcile it.  If not, the many UW will think something is wrong with him or that he has wind in the head.

[Gator]

So you don't agree that a woman with two young sons should be told her ex-husband is spreading her personal history around the net? Let's just leave a colleague of hers to stumble upon it one day, right? Not my problem, right? All arseholes united no matter what I guess.

Good for you Doll. No matter if this story is exactly like Jan states, his ex should be told that he's being free and easy with their story on an open forum.

Why am I not surprised by this?  You attempted the same for BillyB.  Ade, for a man who does not believe in God, you sure do enjoy playing God.

[jone]

Ade

I didn't agree with Eduard calling Muzh at his office.  I didn't like the concept of you trying to get a hold of Billy B's fiancee and I don't agree with Doll trying to contact Lena.  This is, after all, an internet forum.  I happen to subscribe to many of Doll's points of view.  But I think that contacting someone outside of the forum, particularly in a family matter is wrong. 

I think the only exception to this philosophy is trying to ascertain when a woman is being accused of being a scammer. 

If you think about it, there are too many people here who make this forum more than it is:  A place to trade opinions and assist those in need.  But it is a cyberspace operation.  We all have real lives to live.

[Gator]

Mies, you had many substantive comments.

>>>> The fact is critical, but this is the fact we are  hearing from the Northkape, we do not know how did they arrive at that decision, and even if the OP told us about it, it would be only his side of the story.

We have been told enough, and the explanation is Lena wants the children to not have more disruption in their lives.  They stay to keep their friends,  their private school, their coaches and teachers, their home, their neighborhood, etc. 

If this is not reasonably accurate, please suggest another reasonable alternative. 

  >>> trusting the father and leaving children behind are not synonyms, we cannot put an equal sign between them.

I like your term "equal sign."   So let us play with the concept.   Do you agree that the factors I listed just above must be in your equation?  Yet if "trust of the father" was not also in the equation, she would not leave them where they live today.

 

>>> yeah, a good family man usually travels on sex tours picking new wife before he filed the divorce documents. A good family man also parades his past and future women before his (15-20 or so years younger) wife, as a constant reminder to her what a desirable catch he is.

Your opinion based on your feelings, not his words.  See my earlier post. 

>>> do you somehow imply that the mother role is easily substitutable by ANY reasonably normal woman?

No.  That is why Norhkape must be very careful.  Or otherwise Lena would take her children to Oslo.

>>> this is waaaay too much of an assumption about Lena feeling guilt and her motives.

You are correct.  Northkape also said I was wrong.

>>> I would dare to make an assumption that perhaps Norwegian women (unlike the UW's OP is meeting) would not be too open to go out and discuss marriage plans with a man who is 20+ years older than them, and who is still married, and who has two 10yo sons living with him. But that's just me.

Retaining the children is a disadvantage in finding a wife.  However, he gives his children first priority.

>>> I think Lena would prefer the boys to live with her and spare them the turmoil of dealing with a Ukrainian step-mother all together. But is she given such an option - we don't know.

Discussed before.

  >>> pardon me for asking, did you, while going through your divorce, welcome the opportunity to meet prime candidates and sex-partners of your soon-to-be-ex wife and mother of your children? How would you feel about such situation?

My ex-wife was not open, and would never have done it.  She suffers from clinical depression (strong meds and therapy). 

She found a better caregiver than me (if you want to belittle me, read first about people married to depressed spouses).     However, I never wanted to meet the son-of-a-bitch.   As her caregiver, he felt it important to use her money (previously my hard earned money) to retain attorneys to go after my ass for issues we had previously agreed to  (she never won a case).   BTW, the son-of-a-bitch was older than me, in bad health and died a few years ago.   Her formerly best friend will not talk with her and in fact is now a friend of my Cossack wife.   Jesus, you hit a nerve.

 

>>> not necessarily, because you are you, and the OP can be completely different from you. Also your wife was American, and Lena is Ukrainian. Not the same deal, Ukrainians and Russians have very different family dynamics and relationships between children and parents.

Good mothers are good mothers everywhere. My ex-wife has some faults as do I; however, she was a good mother.

[mies]

So you don't agree that a woman with two young sons should be told her ex-husband is spreading her personal history around the net? Let's just leave a colleague of hers to stumble upon it one day, right? Not my problem, right? ...

Good for you Doll. No matter if this story is exactly like Jan states, his ex should be told that he's being free and easy with their story on an open forum.

I agree fully.

[mies]

Hello Ladies,

I am impressed by the degree of interest you have in this story.  Each of you raise valid points.  Do you believe your criticism of Northkape is totally accurate? 

Gator, I have the greatest respect for you, in all cases I learn much from your opinions and in many cases I agree with you. Here is what I feel when I read the development of this thread: I feel not very good, not quite happy.

And here is what I think about this. I presume you, as most of American posters on this site know that working for the Federal Government in DC is sort of a big deal: the job is very secure, great social benefits, very interesting, high responsibility, good comfortable salary, very difficult to get. So imagine, for a moment, that you are 36, and after long path you finally got your dream job. You also bought a new apartment, expecting to pay the mortgage from the salary this dream job would pay. So basically all your planning, life and finances are tied to this job. Now you are passing security clearance. The process is lengthy, every detail of your biography is checked and cross-checked, and you are asked to remove personal information from the web. So you do. And then your wife - maybe the same wife with whom you have amicably divorced, creates on the web several very revealing and extensive information sources about you, your private and family life, while knowing that your employer specifically requested to remove this type information from the web. What is your reaction? What are you going to do? Will you think that your wife is your friend?
This is just mind-boggling how some people act.

[mies]

My ex-wife was not open, and would never have done it.  She suffers from clinical depression (strong meds and therapy). 

She found a better caregiver than me (if you want to belittle me, read first about people married to depressed spouses).     However, I never wanted to meet the son-of-a-bitch.   As her caregiver, he felt it important to use her money (previously my hard earned money) to retain attorneys to go after my ass for issues we had previously agreed to  (she never won a case).   BTW, the son-of-a-bitch was older than me, in bad health and died a few years ago.   Her formerly best friend will not talk with her and in fact is now a friend of my Cossack wife.   Jesus, you hit a nerve.

Gator, if I hit the nerve, I am truly sorry. And I definitely never meant to belittle you, and I apologize if what I said came across that way. My point was that your story is not the same story as the OPs, although it has some similarities, and that your wife, or you, never subjected each other to the type of treatment the OP subjects his wife. That's all. You were civil with your ex, she was (I presume, based on your posts) civil with you. The OP isn't civil with his wife to.

[LiveFromUkraine]

So you don't agree that a woman with two young sons should be told her ex-husband is spreading her personal history around the net? Let's just leave a colleague of hers to stumble upon it one day, right? Not my problem, right? All arseholes united no matter what I guess.

Good for you Doll. No matter if this story is exactly like Jan states, his ex should be told that he's being free and easy with their story on an open forum.

You really expect us to believe this reasoning.  Trying to save her from colleagues finding out is pretty funny reasoning but anyone with half a brain can see right through it.


Some of you guys display narcissistic behavior thinking your opinions are gospel.   Typically people getting involved in others affairs are the people who should be working on their own shortcomings.

[Gator]

And here is what I think about this. I presume you, as most of American posters on this site know that working for the Federal Government in DC is sort of a big deal: the job is very secure, great social benefits, very interesting, high responsibility, good comfortable salary, very difficult to get. So imagine, for a moment, that you are 36, and after long path you finally got your dream job. You also bought a new apartment, expecting to pay the mortgage from the salary this dream job would pay. So basically all your planning, life and finances are tied to this job. Now you are passing security clearance. The process is lengthy, every detail of your biography is checked and cross-checked, and you are asked to remove personal information from the web. So you do. And then your wife - maybe the same wife with whom you have amicably divorced, creates on the web several very revealing and extensive information sources about you, your private and family life, while knowing that your employer specifically requested to remove this type information from the web. What is your reaction? What are you going to do? Will you think that your wife is your friend?
This is just mind-boggling how some people act.

This is a valid concern.   I thought the others who were trying to contact Lena were doing it for vindictive reasons.   

Lena should now what Northkape has presented if she does not already know.  However, I feel certain she knows.  Northkape has said nothing bad about Lena, nothing.   

Some men might express something negative, e. g.,   an example of a husband paying for the education of a young woman and now that he approaches his decrepit pension years, she leaves him to earn BIG MONEY.  Heck, that is part and parcel of marrying a much younger woman. 

[mies]

Some men might express something negative, e. g.,   an example of a husband paying for the education of a young woman and now that he approaches his decrepit pension years, she leaves him to earn BIG MONEY.  Heck, that is part and parcel of marrying a much younger woman.

I've seen people using this line of argument on this board and elsewhere, and I do not think age difference plays a big role in the argument/claim. Remove the age difference and you will receive the normal family, where one spouse works to support the other spouse through college years, and then switch/take turns. I know quite a few people in USA, local Americans, who had done that. They are still married, but making an argument "the wife used her husband to pay for her education and now when she earns big money she leaves" is far-fetched. Especially in the case when couple have been married for 13 years and have 2 children. There are easier ways to get education rather than marry someone for 13 years and give birth to 2 sons for him. I vaguely remember the prices for surrogate parenting, and I vaguely remember cost of university education in Norway, and I think that if doing strict math "2 children vs. college education" - the OP still owes his wife quite a bit. But no, when we talk about children no one raises a question that the woman was used by the OP to produce two beautiful children. But when we are talking about woman's career, suddenly we start saying "perhaps she used her husband to get education." Why?

[jone]

Gator,

I have read much of what you wrote on this thread.  You have transference of your situation onto the OP's.  You compare yourself to him because he is of a similar age as you were when you got divorced.   You think this is similar to your situation.  IT IS NOT.   You did not have two kids going through their adolescence at the time your marriage was breaking up. 

The fact that the OP is substantially older than his wife only exacerbates the situation by making him that much more desperate to find a new love interest.  If he really had his children's interest first in his life, he would realize that the proper course of action is to allow the divorce to happen without introducing a new woman into the situation.  His course of action can only end in severe trauma for these children, no matter how lovingly he plays it. 

He is not thinking rationally.  Even though he tells everyone he is.  I note that my posts are the ones he ignores because, ultimately, I have been there and had to make these decisions for my children.   They were reasonably thought out because I had someone coaching me.   

The decisions that I made, I am happy that I did.   They were very difficult.  But then, I was not so desperate.

He should obtain counseling from a qualified marital counselor - not from this bunch of Armchair Quarterbacks.

[LiveFromUkraine]

I've seen people using this line of argument on this board and elsewhere, and I do not think age difference plays a big role in the argument/claim. Remove the age difference and you will receive the normal family, where one spouse works to support the other spouse through college years, and then switch/take turns. I know quite a few people in USA, local Americans, who had done that. They are still married, but making an argument "the wife used her husband to pay for her education and now when she earns big money she leaves" is a big in far-fetched. Especially in the case when couple have been married for 13 years and have 2 children. There are easier ways to get education rather than marry someone for 13 years and give birth to 2 sons for him. I vaguely remember the prices for surrogate parenting, and I vaguely remember cost of university education in Norway, and I think that if doing strict math "2 children vs. college education" - the OP still owes his wife quite a bit. But no, when we talk about children no one raises a question that the woman was used by the OP to produce two beautiful children. But when we are talking about woman's career, suddenly we start saying "perhaps she used her husband to get education." Why?

It is the same as women complaining their men left after they finished law/medical school and built up their careers. 

[ML]

I have seen/heard of several cases where the MD after finishing residency, internships, specialty training, etc., files for divorce.

Typically they did not get married until after receiving MD, but did marry sometime during residency, internship, etc.

During this period, the spouse often provides a good part of the family income.

But later, the MDs salary will skyrocket (in most cases) while the non-MD spouse's salary will be on less of a trajectory.

At divorce time, the non-MD spouse will scream (via their attorney) that they were taken advantage of by supporting the future high earning MD . . . and now that the money starts flowing in, they are being thrown to the curb.

I think these non-MD spouses typically get very good settlements both up front and over several years because they are viewed as victims.

But turn this around . . .

A pretty good payoff to provide some (maybe even > 50%) support for a few years to a budding MD . . . and then reap the big payoff from a divorce.

Depending on the specific numbers . . . it could prove to be a very high rate of return on invested money and time.  And maybe even having good sex all along.

Let's assume a scenario of no children produced.

[mies]

ne

It is the same as women complaining their men left after they finished law/medical school and built up their careers.

Similar, yes. But not the same. Because while men do their law/medical school - it takes a toll on family finances and on the family in general, as they are never around. I saw no facts in this story showing that OPs wife drained money from the family and was never around. She did raise their children and took care of the home, didn't she?