Update - 13 years later

[Muzh]

Bo
You can say that in general,, "a person at 45, probably knows more about what he wants from life than one at 22", and it might be true.
But you can't do this on an individual level.
I'm sure there are persons at 45 that have no idea about what they want from life and those at 22 that knows perfectly well what they want from life.
And a phrase like: "knowing what you want" can't be objectively verified as true or false by someone looking in, from the outside either.

Was it a marriage of equals in all aspects according to your scale?
I don't know and will never know either, because I don't know your definition of "equal" in such a context.
And even if you specified it for me now, it wouldn't help, as I can't return and check with your yardstick.

But does it matter at all, after the fact,, is it really preferable for everyone to marry their "equal"?
if so, where in personality and qualities do they need to be equal.

For me I know what equals I am looking for,,, always knew, and will of course choose by the same scale again, this time around.

Dude, all this time I thought you were in Norway. Now I know you live in Egypt.

[mies]

Mies
Please let it go,,,
In my opinion, it's just littering this thread with "nonsense" of no value to any of us.
I'm sure both you and Fathertime are able to say "Sorry" and move on to something worthwhile using your free time for.

Northkape, thank you for your gracious response. If Fathertime will apologize, I will accept his apologies.

[northkape]

Mies
THANKS,,,,, smiles

[mies]

Mies
THANKS,,,,, smiles

You are very welcomed :-)

[northkape]

FatherTime
Thanks,,, I might have an opportunity to continue the story..... smile

[Boethius]

You can say that in general,, "a person at 45, probably knows more about what he wants from life than one at 22", and it might be true.

Unless the person is a blithering idiot, with no ability to learn, or no introspection, or has lived in a monastery or cave with relatively little contact with the world at large, it is absolutely true.

But you can't do this on an individual level.

Sure I can.  See above.

I'm sure there are persons at 45 that have no idea about what they want from life and those at 22 that knows perfectly well what they want from life.

Almost no one's life unravels the manner he/she envisioned it in youth.  You (a generic "you") can have a general sense of what you desire in life (career, family, fame, fortune, etc.), but how you will see the road before you have traveled it, and how you will view it when you are half way down the path, or at the end of the path, are very different.

And a phrase like: "knowing what you want" can't be objectively verified as true or false by someone looking in, from the outside either.

True. Often, even when one is living it, one does not truly know what one wants.

Was it a marriage of equals in all aspects according to your scale?
I don't know and will never know either, because I don't know your definition of "equal" in such a context.
And even if you specified it for me now, it wouldn't help, as I can't return and check with your yardstick.

Since you are not really asking, I will not elaborate and obviously, I don't know the details of your marriage.  But, let us look at a few facts you have posted.  You were middle aged, presumably had an established career, the money to do as you pleased, and had the opportunity to travel the world to find a wife.  You come from a country many would love to live in, so much so that citizenship, if I understand correctly, is difficult to obtain (more so than in North America, for example).  Your bride, OTOH, was from a second, in some respects, third world country, from a region that is highly polluted, with factories and industries in decline, high unemployment, where a third of the men are alcoholics, and where really, no matter what is posted about wonderful careers, her opportunities for career advancement and satisfaction were not at the levels that exist for WW.  She could not easily emigrate to your country, or to Western Europe on her own, despite a (presumably) good education.  So, for an ambitious young woman, what are her real choices?   She trades her youth and beauty to marry a foreigner and moves to a new country, where initially, she is unemployable unless she wants to work in menial labour, where she does not understand the language, where she is a foreigner in the society, and where even her ability to remain in country is wholly dependent on her husband.  So, even setting aside her youth, how, given the foregoing, are you equals?

But does it matter at all, after the fact,, is it really preferable for everyone to marry their "equal"?
if so, where in personality and qualities do they need to be equal.

IMO, it is because when you do not, there is a "power differential".  It can be subtle and overcome, it need not define a marriage, or it can become greater over time. 

For me I know what equals I am looking for,,, always knew, and will of course choose by the same scale again, this time around.

You have posted that part of the reason you are looking in Ukraine is that generally, Norwegian women in the age bracket you are looking for are not willing to date men of your age and that UW are willing to settle for an older man.  Based on my understanding, that, in and of itself, negates an argument of equality.

Note, this is not a criticism of you, and my original post was me expanding on how I read Muzh's post. 

[fathertime]

Unless the person is a blithering idiot, with no ability to learn, or no introspection, or has lived in a monastery or cave with relatively little contact with the world at large, it is absolutely true.
 

No it is not ABSOLUTELY true...things can change for a man or woman at any age and leave them in a state of confusion about their lives going forward...that does not make the person a blithering idiot or lacking introspection....sometimes things happen, like this.


Fathertime! 

[Boethius]

You missed the point.

[fathertime]

You missed the point.

No, you made a point that is not accurate.


Fathertime! 

[northkape]

Bo
Thanks for your long and detailed answer...
But I think we are talking about entirely different things.
I see from your answer that you are talking about equality in a social context.

Equality for me, is more related to what we have inside our minds,,,
like: outlook on life, ambitions, courage, strength, creativity, intelligence, empathy, happiness, energy and so on. 

You can of course apply a general rule to an individual, but it still has no value doing so.
It's like saying 2+2 = 3..... Even if you can say it, it's still wrong.

Please, don't ever tell people from FSU that they live in something close to a third world country.
It just isn't true,, and offending in such a way, I can't understand the reason for writing it in a forum like this.
I can agree about rating it as "second world" countries between us,
but I would never say that openly to anyone living there.
A large amount of the people living in Moscow or Kiev,
can't really see any difference between their life there, and our life in the west.
Even if it easily visible to me and many others living in some parts of the western world.

And really, I have hard time understanding the difference in personal satisfaction,
from great achievements in your career based on whether you are living in Dnieprodzerzhinsk or in Oslo.

If I didn't have the opportunity of searching for "such a woman" in Ukraine, I would of course try to find her here at home.
Not impossible, but I would have to use a very different strategy, and as of today, I have no idea about how hard it would be.
It was difficult 15 years ago, but I was very close to finding her at home at that time.

Bo,, don't ever worry about criticizing me,, I'm not easily offended.... smile

[flitabout62]

Bo
Thanks for your long and detailed answer...
But I think we are talking about entirely different things.
I see from your answer that you are talking about equality in a social context.

Equality for me, is more related to what we have inside our minds,,,
like: outlook on life, ambitions, courage, strength, creativity, intelligence, empathy, happiness, energy and so on. 

You can of course apply a general rule to an individual, but it still has no value doing so.
It's like saying 2+2 = 3..... Even if you can say it, it's still wrong.

Please, don't ever tell people from FSU that they live in something close to a third world country.
It just isn't true,, and offending in such a way, I can't understand the reason for writing it in a forum like this.
I can agree about rating it as "second world" countries between us,
but I would never say that openly to anyone living there.
A large amount of the people living in Moscow or Kiev,
can't really see any difference between their life there, and our life in the west.
Even if it easily visible to me and many others living in some parts of the western world.

And really, I have hard time understanding the difference in personal satisfaction,
from great achievements in your career based on whether you are living in Dnieprodzerzhinsk or in Oslo.

If I didn't have the opportunity of searching for "such a woman" in Ukraine, I would of course try to find her here at home.
Not impossible, but I would have to use a very different strategy, and as of today, I have no idea about how hard it would be.
It was difficult 15 years ago, but I was very close to finding her at home at that time.

Bo,, don't ever worry about criticizing me,, I'm not easily offended.... smile

Northkape,
You appear to be a very bright man and one who is thoughtful. (and possibly employed in a profession involving writing?)  But your justifications appear to be focused on the intangibles and not on what is tangible or real in our world.

With all due respect, I do not believe what you write.  It seems, by your own description, that your wife is focused on the very tangible world of success educationally and in business.    If what you right is true, then I have trouble seeing your wife and you having much in common other than the children.  The fact you have met, married, and been together for 13 years is difficult to imagine from what you've written about you both, unless there was more than your intangible qualities that attracted your wife to you.   It would make more sense to me if you were to confess that you simply enjoy debate and this whole thing is an elaborate writing exercise started because you are bored? 

[Boethius]

Bo
Thanks for your long and detailed answer...
But I think we are talking about entirely different things.
I see from your answer that you are talking about equality in a social context.

Equality for me, is more related to what we have inside our minds,,,
like: outlook on life, ambitions, courage, strength, creativity, intelligence, empathy, happiness, energy and so on. 

Under that definition, many eight year olds are equal to adults.

You can of course apply a general rule to an individual, but it still has no value doing so.
It's like saying 2+2 = 3..... Even if you can say it, it's still wrong.

Everyone, including me, assumes they are the exception to the general rule.

Please, don't ever tell people from FSU that they live in something close to a third world country.
It just isn't true,, and offending in such a way, I can't understand the reason for writing it in a forum like this.  I can agree about rating it as "second world" countries between us,
but I would never say that openly to anyone living there.
A large amount of the people living in Moscow or Kiev,
can't really see any difference between their life there, and our life in the west.
Even if it easily visible to me and many others living in some parts of the western world.

I speak to Ukrainians who left the country to settle here every week.  I have just now asked my Ukrainian citizen husband, if, in his opinion, Ukraine is a third world country.  We had watched the programme Lily posted, about a chef who went to work in Lugansk.  He responded "Didn't you see it yourself yesterday?"

Ukraine has a per capita GDP of under US$8,000, lower than Namibia, Turkmenistan, Jamaica, Tonga, Albania, and Bosnia and Herzogovina.  In some towns in Ukraine, people hook their homes up to city lights to obtain electricity.  Every level of government is ruled by corrupt politicians who get rich from their offices, more often than not, by theft. 

The glitz and glamour of Kyiv is evident in the city centre, and there is more money because everyone who stole money elsewhere in the country (other than Odessa) moved to Kyiv.  However, go out to a neighbourhood 10 minutes by tram from Khreshchatik, such as where my MIL has lived for over forty years  (now a desirable area based on its central location), and you will witness a very different world.  Unemployed young men loiter outside all day, smoking and playing dominoes.  Stray dogs, known on occasion to attack people, particularly children, roam the streets.  So, let's not kid ourselves.  If the country were not in misery, young women would not be on ADate, earning a few pennies for each WM they speak with, and no one would be fleecing these men for $2 a day.

And really, I have hard time understanding the difference in personal satisfaction,
from great achievements in your career based on whether you are living in Dnieprodzerzhinsk or in Oslo.

It is not the personal achievements I was referring to.  One can be happy wherever one lives.  I was referring to the difficulty of life.  A woman's life, in particular, in Ukraine is far more difficult than it is in the West, and even more so in comparison to egalitarian Scandinavian nations.  If your ex had the same position in Ukraine she does now, she would have to worry about crossing a powerful politician (a de facto mobster) in any investigation or prosecution she was involved in.  She would run into a police system in which most officers have abused their positions for personal gain, and the majority take bribes.  She would have no ability to do anything to change this, at least, not if she wanted to remain alive.  How likely is that to occur in Norway?

It gives me, as a diaspora Ukrainian, no pleasure in stating any of the above.  Ukrainians are well educated, certainly as well, if not better educated, than many of their Western counterparts.  I had hoped, on the collapse of communism, that the country would flourish, with a rule of law by now, and a standard of living similar to that of some Western countries.  I also assumed, after the collapse, that the suppressed arts would flourish, that there would be a burst of artistic creativity in all spheres.  Instead, I read newspapers full of basic grammatical errors, suggesting the reporters' and editors' diplomas were purchased rather than earned, no interesting authors have emerged, and most of the musical artists are churning out rehashed Soviet pop tunes, or the same Europop.  The country is ruled by the former ruling class who now, instead of being committed to communism, are corrupt oligarchs who live with no rule of law, not a care about how the populace they are elected to serve live, and no Moscow to control the worst of their avaricious impulses. 

[mies]

Under that definition, many eight year olds are equal to adults.

Everyone, including me, assumes they are the exception to the general rule.

I speak to Ukrainians who left the country to settle here every week.  I have just now asked my Ukrainian citizen husband, if, in his opinion, Ukraine is a third world country.  We had watched the programme Lily posted, about a chef who went to work in Lugansk.  He responded "Didn't you see it yourself yesterday?"

Ukraine has a per capita GDP of under US$8,000, lower than Namibia, Turkmenistan, Jamaica, Tonga, Albania, and Bosnia and Herzogovina.  In some towns in Ukraine, people hook their homes up to city lights to obtain electricity.  Every level of government is ruled by corrupt politicians who get rich from their offices, more often than not, by theft. 

The glitz and glamour of Kyiv is evident in the city centre, and there is more money because everyone who stole money elsewhere in the country (other than Odessa) moved to Kyiv.  However, go out to a neighbourhood 10 minutes by tram from Khreshchatik, such as where my MIL has lived for over forty years  (now a desirable area based on its central location), and you will witness a very different world.  Unemployed young men loiter outside all day, smoking and playing dominoes.  Stray dogs, known on occasion to attack people, particularly children, roam the streets.  So, let's not kid ourselves.  If the country were not in misery, young women would not be on ADate, earning a few pennies for each WM they speak with, and no one would be fleecing these men for $2 a day.

It is not the personal achievements I was referring to.  One can be happy wherever one lives.  I was referring to the difficulty of life.  A woman's life, in particular, in Ukraine is far more difficult than it is in the West, and even more so in comparison to egalitarian Scandinavian nations.  If your ex had the same position in Ukraine she does now, she would have to worry about crossing a powerful politician (a de facto mobster) in any investigation or prosecution she was involved in.  She would run into a police system in which most officers have abused their positions for personal gain, and the majority take bribes.  She would have no ability to do anything to change this, at least, not if she wanted to remain alive.  How likely is that to occur in Norway?

It gives me, as a diaspora Ukrainian, no pleasure in stating any of the above.  Ukrainians are well educated, certainly as well, if not better educated, than many of their Western counterparts.  I had hoped, on the collapse of communism, that the country would flourish, with a rule of law by now, and a standard of living similar to that of some Western countries.  I also assumed, after the collapse, that the suppressed arts would flourish, that there would be a burst of artistic creativity in all spheres.  Instead, I read newspapers full of basic grammatical errors, suggesting the reporters' and editors' diplomas were purchased rather than earned, no interesting authors have emerged, and most of the musical artists are churning out rehashed Soviet pop tunes, or the same Europop.  The country is ruled by the former ruling class who now, instead of being committed to communism, are corrupt oligarchs who live with no rule of law, not a care about how the populace they are elected to serve live, and no Moscow to control the worst of their avaricious impulses.

I agree with Boethius.

I have visited Ukraine past spring, after 6 years of not seeing it. While living in USA I've heard both good things and bad things about changes/evolution of Ukraine. In my hometown roads and anything related to public infrastructure are in worse shape than they were in early 1990s, following the collapse of USSR, hyperinflation and extreme deficit, when municipal budgets had no money and people were not paid salary for a year or more. I visited few more small towns, along with various districts in Kyiv, and cannot understand how the country can be living better if every public good is so neglected and not cared for. The state collects money from citizens, but the money get lost in deep pockets of many state employees and politicians, only to be found later in off-shores and in Swiss and Austrian banks. The century-old buildings in Kyiv, which are designated as historical heritage and supposedly are protected by state, are instead methodically destroyed by neglect and arson. While the majority of the country becomes poorer by the day,  our politicians and state officials use their political power to gain competitive advantage for their business enterprises, to get contracts for their sons, daughters, and in-laws. General attitude to women in Ukraine is so upsetting that I do not even want to start talking about it. 

[northkape]

Thanks again for taking your time Bo

Under that definition, many eight year olds are equal to adults.

Yes, and if you belived in that, you would prefer to choose your own partner by the scale of social equality,
and vote for an eight year old running for president.
You clearly do understand Bo, that the traits alone doesn't a personality make.

So, no need to belittle what qualities I'm looking for, in the woman I want to have beside me.

Whatever amount of ambitions an eight year old might have,,
he still hasn't acquired the necessary knowledge and reason for building an abstract platform, where to envision his future achievements.
Even though he is equally ambitious there in't much of value for an adult to discuss with him.

Everyone, including me, assumes they are the exception to the general rule.

Not everyone Bo, only those willing to forfeit reason and logic in the face of feelings.
However populated mankind's history is with such people, you will not find my name in there.

Whatever you tell me Bo, I will not agree about Ukraine being even close to the level of third world countries, as in Africa.

In countries where a substantial and unknown amount of the economy goes below the radar, the Official GDP numbers have less than artificial value.

The glitz and glamour of Kyiv
No way do I want a pissing match about who knows the most about Ukraine so I will only state my opinion once.
In my opinion, I know as much about Ukraine as almost anyone living there,
having been together with people from the Elite level corrupts in the main cities,
down to the poorest of the poor living in the most remote villages of Ukraine.
And driving myself, across almost every part of Ukraine numerous times in the last 13 years.

I was referring to the difficulty of life
You know what Bo,,, I really don't believe in that when placing it in this context.

If you are fighting for a position when climbing the ladder, no one are going to step aside and offer you the place.
You will have to fight to the absolute ability of every nerve in your body as long as you are awake.
And you are fighting with other humans that will do exactly the same, using every trick ever invented by mankind, to make you slip and fall.
Wether you are in Los Angeles, in Oslo or in Kiev the game is the same, there are similar written and unwritten rules for all players to follow.
All participants are still only humans that have the same 24 hours a day available for using as fit.

I sat at the sidelines 30 years ago watching my lady fighting her way from serving coffee to become "Business Woman Of The Year" in Norway.
And I have Lena sleeping in the bed beside me, totally exhausted every day of the week from fighting the same game on her way up.

But in general, I truly admire the women I meet with in Ukraine for being able to support a family on their own, working almost constantly every single hour of their life.

Ukrainians are well educated, certainly as well, if not better educated, than many of their Western counterparts.  I had hoped, on the collapse of communism, that the country would flourish, with a rule of law by now, and a standard of living similar to that of some Western countries.  I also assumed, after the collapse, that the suppressed arts would flourish, that there would be a burst of artistic creativity in all spheres.  Instead, I read newspapers full of basic grammatical errors, suggesting the reporters' and editors' diplomas were purchased rather than earned, no interesting authors have emerged, and most of the musical artists are churning out rehashed Soviet pop tunes, or the same Europop.  The country is ruled by the former ruling class who now, instead of being committed to communism, are corrupt oligarchs who live with no rule of law, not a care about how the populace they are elected to serve live, and no Moscow to control the worst of their avaricious impulses.

Bo,,, these are similar to my own thoughts 13 years ago, sitting behind the steering wheel of my own car, watching thousands of kilometers disappear at my side.
I remember very well, telling Lena to look closely at her own Ukraine, when passing by, because in a few years time it would all change it's face.
Looking back, I was quite a bit too optimistic about that.... smile

[Boethius]

northkape, you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian.  Both mies and I do, and we have both lived in Ukraine.  I am fairly confident our views of Ukraine are more accurate than is yours.

[northkape]

I stated my opinion only Bo

And made it clear that I'm not willing to argue about it.
You have no knowledge about my history in Ukraine, and I am not going to tell about it either.

Of course, I fully understand and respect your opinion about a subject very sensitive to you.

[Boethius]

No, I don't know your history, but I do know that if one does not speak the language of a country, one cannot see all its facets.  This is probably more so when economic disparity exists.

[JayH]

northkape, you don't speak Russian or Ukrainian.  Both mies and I do, and we have both lived in Ukraine.  I am fairly confident our views of Ukraine are more accurate than is yours.

I have read thread with interest in the many areas covered-in that comment I do not mean geographical.
From a geographical perspective!!-- in driving yourself  you do get to see a lot of Ukraine. I drive when I am there and have covered many thousands of kms-- both in large cities and very small towns. I do not speak Ukrainian or Russian  and in no way seek to make comparisons of relative understanding. I have and am most interested to learn from others -- but in that process one always has opinions of what the see and hear( & read of course).Of course-- you learn a lot in the process.
 I have seen people living in what I consider 3rd world conditions in far to many cases to say that is unusual. For me--it has been an incredibly humbling and emotional experience. I have never ceased to be amazed how people can live in such a harsh winter climate in such inadequate housing -- and I will quickly add--amazed at how house proud people are regardless.

I agree with Boethius.

I have visited Ukraine past spring, after 6 years of not seeing it. While living in USA I've heard both good things and bad things about changes/evolution of Ukraine. In my hometown roads and anything related to public infrastructure are in worse shape than they were in early 1990s, following the collapse of USSR, hyperinflation and extreme deficit, when municipal budgets had no money and people were not paid salary for a year or more. I visited few more small towns, along with various districts in Kyiv, and cannot understand how the country can be living better if every public good is so neglected and not cared for. The state collects money from citizens, but the money get lost in deep pockets of many state employees and politicians, only to be found later in off-shores and in Swiss and Austrian banks. The century-old buildings in Kyiv, which are designated as historical heritage and supposedly are protected by state, are instead methodically destroyed by neglect and arson. While the majority of the country becomes poorer by the day,  our politicians and state officials use their political power to gain competitive advantage for their business enterprises, to get contracts for their sons, daughters, and in-laws. General attitude to women in Ukraine is so upsetting that I do not even want to start talking about it. 

This post and MrsB's that Mies is referring to cover a lot of real issues.My only word of caution is that it is not necessary to be condescending and dismissive of those who do not speak the language and /or are late to taking an interest in Ukraine. I am sure that both NorthKape and I can tell you things  Ukraine related that neither MrsB or Mies knows about!!

[missAmeno]

I am sure that both NorthKape and I can tell you things  Ukraine related that neither MrsB or Mies knows about!!

Now I am curious to know such things 

[JayH]

Now I am curious to know such things 

Funny thing is I nearly included you when I said that!!

[missAmeno]

Funny thing is I nearly included you when I said that!!

That doesn't help my curiosity. Go on, tell those things about Ukraine. You know you want to 

[JayH]

That doesn't help my curiosity. Go on, tell those things about Ukraine. You know you want to 

]

For the sake of others-- I will repeat what I have said previously and alluded to above. There are specific things Ukraine within my exposure  that  you know--or knew very little of -eg the mob and agency business-reference you agreeing with unesteemed member resident in Estonia and being prepared to dispute it with others on forum -some who were referencing first hand anecdotes from now wives-- who had in fact lived in Ukraine far more recently than you.
Let me give another example --- in response to a forum question( by LT as it it happens) as to how to get from a Ukraine city ( not far from where you came from ) -- a lady member!! advised a convoluted cross country route of bus and train connections   to Kharkov.It was in winter and would have involved considerable time waiting around etc.
I suggested--the best and EASIEST way was to train/bus direct back to Kiev and catch express train to Kharkov.
For that simple common sense advice (which I stand by until this day)  I was assailed by forum fools and bag carriers whose assertion was I would not have a clue etc and that "lady" had far more knowledge of Ukraine than me etc
Of course-- you  still think I have never been there so not much I can say about that.
Your question is answered- please do not divert this thread.

[northkape]

Mies
I totally agree with most everything you wrote.

In my hometown roads and anything related to public infrastructure are in worse shape than they were in early 1990s, following the collapse of USSR, hyperinflation and extreme deficit, when municipal budgets had no money and people were not paid salary for a year or more. I visited few more small towns, along with various districts in Kyiv, and cannot understand how the country can be living better if every public good is so neglected and not cared for. The state collects money from citizens, but the money get lost in deep pockets of many state employees and politicians, only to be found later in off-shores and in Swiss and Austrian banks. The century-old buildings in Kyiv, which are designated as historical heritage and supposedly are protected by state, are instead methodically destroyed by neglect and arson. While the majority of the country becomes poorer by the day,  our politicians and state officials use their political power to gain competitive advantage for their business enterprises, to get contracts for their sons, daughters, and in-laws.

In general a lot of the infrastructure in Ukraine, is in worse condition now, than it was when I first came here 13 years ago.

Many roads are now in a condition that makes it almost impossible to use them.
In some places this year, the farmers had made access to their fields, so it was possible to detour in the places where the conditions were at it's worst.
Places like between Krivoy Rig - Nikolaev  /  Zhitomyr - Khmelnitsky  /  Zhitomyr - Vinnitsa

But there are also some glimpses of light in between:
The Northern route from Kiev to Poland through Korosten and then Kovel, more than 500 kilometers, is totally rebuilt and in perfect condition.
And new four lane roads between Kiev - Zhitomyr  /  Kherson - Nikolaev  /  Kharkov - Dniepropetrovsk  /  Kiev - Kharkov soon to be finished.

Even as terrible as the economic situation is, I see that most of those people I know, can afford more amenities in their homes today than ten years ago.
There are also several, that can now afford to buy their first car ever.

13 years ago, the price of (Ukraine) foods in general, were as low as one tenth of the price here in Norway.
Today, prices on food are almost the same as in Norway, but our salaries are close to ten times higher than in Ukraine.
However difficult the conditions of their daily life, most people are still friendly and helpful wherever I have been.

Taking care of historical buildings is very difficult, in all of the world and also extremely expensive.
I saw that they were doing work on some buildings in Kiev this summer.
Sadly, most of the work isn't done correctly for restoring the buildings to their original state and condition.
Missing the craftsmen with knowledge about how the work was done when the buildings were made, they do a cheap "look-alike" restoration that won't last.

General attitude to women in Ukraine is so upsetting that I do not even want to start talking about it.

Yes, Mies it makes me truly sad to see what burdens your women are supposed to carry on their shoulders every day of their life.

[northkape]

Thanks FatherTime

Now getting back to my story,,,
A short summarry of what happened so far:
Met with Kiev33 and then Kiev32 when arriving in Kiev.
After a business meeting in Kharkov I met with Kharkov32
Have arrived at Lena's parents in Dnieprodzherzhinsk, where I will be staying for a few days.
We are finished with dinner, and I will drive to Dniepropetrovsk for a date in the evening.

Dniepropetrovsk36 is supposed to meet with me at the French Carousel in the European Square at 19.00

I park my car in the parking lot across Prospect Karl Marx, a few minutes to 19.00 and walk over to the French Carousel.
Picking up my phone, I call her,,,, she speaks no English, but I do understand this at least: ya budu tam cherez djecit minut.
Meaning,,, she will be here in 10 minutes, (or usually within 10 - 50 min. for a Ukraine woman)

Then I feel it safe to turn on my "number 2" phone and make a call to my long time favorite Kirhovorad32.
I was unable to get in touch with her while driving here, and she is waiting for my call about our meeting tomorrow.
Heaven might fall down in hell, if I'm unable to get hold of her before Dniepropetrovsk36 arrives here.

More later.....

[Елена]

[Now getting back to my story,,,
A short summarry of what happened so far:
Met with Kiev33 and then Kiev32 when arriving in Kiev.
After a business meeting in Kharkov I met with Kharkov32
Have arrived at Lena's parents in Dnieprodzherzhinsk, where I will be staying for a few days.
We are finished with dinner, and I will drive to Dniepropetrovsk for a date in the evening.

Dniepropetrovsk36 is supposed to meet with me at the French Carousel in the European Square at 19.00

I park my car in the parking lot across Prospect Karl Marx, a few minutes to 19.00 and walk over to the French Carousel.
Picking up my phone, I call her,,,, she speaks no English, but I do understand this at least: ya budu tam cherez djecit minut.
Meaning,,, she will be here in 10 minutes, (or usually within 10 - 50 min. for a Ukraine woman)

Then I feel it safe to turn on my "number 2" phone and make a call to my long time favorite Kirhovorad32.
I was unable to get in touch with her while driving here, and she is waiting for my call about our meeting tomorrow.
Heaven might fall down in hell, if I'm unable to get hold of her before Dniepropetrovsk36 arrives here. ]
I read the beginning of this post. I'm surprised to read this. I do not think that would be one of your list ... What do you think about the fact that someone from the women on your list, she will come to meet you and to meet again with 20 men in your city? It is possible that I either obsolete or I just do not understand something.