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[Ranetka]

Again, I'll stress my point; the 20's are the most valuable if you're living them. If your living the 40's then, they are. People (women) make choices in their 20's that they live to regret. Some choices they don't. It's part and parcel of life. Her 20's are most valuable to her and one would have to expect she made the choices that were best for her. It's not the old farts fault she if she chose him.

Yes. Based on outcome i think she made wrong choices and i feel sorry for that.

[Ranetka]

Ah, I see. So your years of value had already eclipsed? How did you compensate your old codger for the difference 

Please rephrase, i do not understand this. If it is an attempt to insult please refrain.

[Faux Pas]

Yes. Based on outcome i think she made wrong choices and i feel sorry for that.

You are assuming the outcome is bad and that she made the wrong choice when, she is liable to disagree with you. Why would her years be wasted and less valuable given the same marriage and divorce applied equally to an older foreigner versus a Russian man closer to her age? She would still be divorced and those years still in the past no matter whom she was previously married to.

Please rephrase, i do not understand this. If it is an attempt to insult please refrain.

It isn't an insult at all. Merely an attempt to hold up a mirror to you for what you are projecting on to these mythical 18-25 year old women we are discussing. Were your "valuable" years over when you married at 32?

[jone]

You are assuming the outcome is bad and that she made the wrong choice when, she is liable to disagree with you. Why would her years be wasted and less valuable given the same marriage and divorce applied equally to an older foreigner versus a Russian man closer to her age? She would still be divorced and those years still in the past no matter whom she was previously married to.

It isn't an insult at all. Merely an attempt to hold up a mirror to you for what you are projecting on to these mythical 18-25 year old women we are discussing. Were your "valuable" years over when you married at 32?

Actually, FP is tacitly arguing that your 'valuable' years were not wasted and that you achieved your happiness in accordance with how you lived your life.  Of course, neither of us have any idea of how you view your earlier years.  The point being is that there is no cookbook recipe for success and everyone lives according to their plans and beliefs. 

Some of the happiest people I know were late bloomers, so to speak.  And they do not consider their younger years wasted. 

[Misha]

Yes. Based on outcome i think she made wrong choices and i feel sorry for that.

Objectively, we would have to compare a person's life with what would have been if different choices would have been made. Perhaps the outcome would have been much worse had she made other choices. There is no way of knowing for certain. My philosophy is quite simple: there is no sense in regretting the past as there is no way of knowing if different decisions would necessarily have resulted in a better outcome. All you can do is act upon the present.

[Ranetka]

Obviously my and i guess pitbull opinion that 20s are the most valuable years for a woman based on a fact that i am a woman in my 40s.....and i have lived my 20s, 30s and 40s.

[Ranetka]

You are assuming the outcome is bad and that she made the wrong choice when, she is liable to disagree with you. Why would her years be wasted and less valuable given the same marriage and divorce applied equally to an older foreigner versus a Russian man closer to her age? She would still be divorced and those years still in the past no matter whom she was previously married

I answered this earlier in detail.

[Misha]

Obviously my and i guess pitbull opinion that 20s are the most valuable years for a woman based on a fact that i am a woman in my 40s.....and i have lived my 20s, 30s and 40s.

Yes, and you both did what you thought was best for you when you were in your 20s, 30s. Did you think it was right. Yes, of course. Can you then say that all women in their 20s and 30s should do only what you thought was best, I would say this is a bit presumptuous.

[Ranetka]

Yes, and you both did what you thought was best for you when you were in your 20s, 30s. Did you think it was right. Yes, of course. Can you then say that all women in their 20s and 30s should do only what you thought was best, I would say this is a bit presumptuous.

No i can not that. It seems to me that in order to win the argument you put words in my mouth that i have never said or intended to say. Can you please respond to my words rather what you imagine i meant?

[Misha]

No i can not that. It seems to me that in order to win the argument you put words in my mouth that i have never said or intended to say. Can you please respond to my words rather what you imagine i meant?

Fine, then answer my question. Do you believe that as given that as "a fact" that you are a woman in your 40s that your experience is generalizable to all women?

[pitbull]

Yes, and you both did what you thought was best for you when you were in your 20s, 30s. Did you think it was right. Yes, of course. Can you then say that all women in their 20s and 30s should do only what you thought was best, I would say this is a bit presumptuous.

Misha,


Women mostly want the same things - family, kids, education and a secure job/career. A subset might want to only have a family and are not interested in working. Some are child-free and prefer to build a career.


There is no doubt that Lena belongs to the majority that want a secure job and a family with kids.


Both Ranteka and I, and most women and men would agree that a woman's "shelf life" is much shorter than a man's and that the most beneficial age for a woman to achieve all of the above (or lay down most of the work) is in her 20s and early 30s.


Ranetka and I feel sorry for a woman who wasted those pivotal years in a large age - gap relationship, did not use the opportunities that come with it and has nothing to show for it as an outcome.


And yes, being divorced in your early 30s in a foreign country with no good job, family support or money hinders a woman's prospects to attain any and all of those goals immensely.

[Misha]

There is no doubt that Lena belongs to the majority that want a secure job and a family with kids.

Sure, everybody wants a job, preferable a secure job, but then the question will be how do you define a "secure job"? Do you mean a job that you know that you will get a regular paycheque that will pay the bills of a modest life. Do you mean an above-average job that will net a high salary? The devil is always in the details.

Both Ranteka and I, and most women and men would agree that a woman's "shelf life" is much shorter than a man's and that the most beneficial age for a woman to achieve all of the above (or lay down most of the work) is in her 20s and early 30s.

Ah, but the question is how long does it really take to achieve it? Does it take more than a decade from the age of 20 to the  early 30s to ensure a family? Is it not entirely possible for a woman to in her early thirties to find a husband and start a family by the time she is 33 or 35 or even a bit older? Or, do you believe as Lyudmila presented yesterday that there is a strict timeline that must be followed whereby a woman must have university degrees, an established career, husband and children by the age of 30?

Ranetka and I feel sorry for a woman who wasted those pivotal years in a large age - gap relationship, did not use the opportunities that come with it and has nothing to show for it as an outcome.

Yes, but you seem to be linking two variables and seeking to make one the cause of another, but just because A follows B does not mean that B caused A. A woman who "wasted" those "pivotal years" in a large age-gap relationship, could have just as easily "wasted" them in a marriage with a partner the exact same age with even less to show for it. Also, what happens if such a person did not believe they were "wasting" anything and simply were enjoying life?

And yes, being divorced in your early 30s in a foreign country with no good job, family support or money hinders a woman's prospects to attain any and all of those goals immensely.

Why? What exactly would hinder a divorced 30-year-old woman from dating, finding a good husband, getting married and having a child before the age of 35?

[pitbull]

Sure, everybody wants a job, preferable a secure job, but then the question will be how do you define a "secure job"? Do you mean a job that you know that you will get a regular paycheque that will pay the bills of a modest life. Do you mean an above-average job that will net a high salary? The devil is always in the details.



Ah, but the question is how long does it really take to achieve it? Does it take more than a decade from the age of 20 to the  early 30s to ensure a family? Is it not entirely possible for a woman to in her early thirties to find a husband and start a family by the time she is 33 or 35 or even a bit older? Or, do you believe as Lyudmila presented yesterday that there is a strict timeline that must be followed whereby a woman must have university degrees, an established career, husband and children by the age of 30?



Yes, but you seem to be linking two variables and seeking to make one the cause of another, but just because A follows B does not mean that B caused A. A woman who "wasted" those "pivotal years" in a large age-gap relationship, could have just as easily "wasted" them in a marriage with a partner the exact same age with even less to show for it. Also, what happens if such a person did not believe they were "wasting" anything and simply were enjoying life?


Why? What exactly would hinder a divorced 30-year-old woman from dating, finding a good husband, getting married and having a child before the age of 35?

Misha,


She was divorced at 31-32. And yes, it IS hard for an immigrant woman from ground zero, and on a very short time-table. Unless she was basically hopping from one bed to the other. Just accept this. A woman like that would invoke pity in other women because we know a thing or two about being a woman in a foreign country. Period.

[jone]

She was divorced at 31-32. And yes, it IS hard for an immigrant woman from ground zero, and on a very short time-table. Unless she was basically hopping from one bed to the other. Just accept this. A woman like that would invoke pity in other women because we know a thing or two about being a woman in a foreign country. Period.

As interesting aside but paralleling this concept, I had a classmate who, at the age of 18 started banging out kids with her high school boyfriend.  While married, they produced four kids in six years.  Now at 24, he pulls a disappearing act and leaves her with nothing.   The mother has a gun to her head.  While she gets minimal support from social services, she creates a file on the most eligible bachelors in town.  Then she goes out and puts herself in front of each of them in her best possible light.  She hooks up with one, a friend of mine, and slams a bun in the oven.   My friend is as happy as can be.  She is a wonderful woman but had the severe hardship of four young mouths to feed.  I think my friend is a good man for marrying her and caring for her kids (and his own) but he would say he is the lucky one.

I can understand that a woman who comes to America, and doesn't know the language after being here for a long time, and is suddenly rudderless without a husband is at a severe disadvantage.  But by the descriptions I have heard of Lena, I would be willing to be that she landed on her feet. 

How do Eastern European women with Green Card / Citizenship fare against women from America when comparing interest by men?  I would gauge them higher both for appearance and for femininity.  But, that is just an opinion.  Perhaps our ladies think differently. 

I will say something in general:  There are ways to phrase things in forum that do not have to do with absolutes.  Someone who issues an absolute will always receive push back.  It is almost as if the intent of the post is to facilitate push back.  Hmmm.  Maybe?

[Jumper]

There is no doubt that Lena belongs to the majority that want a secure job and a family with kids.

There isn't?
That's an interesting assumption.
While a good generality,  I doubt I can point to any random person in the phone book and make that same assumption,and have no doubts that  i'm correct.

My aunt loves kids , yet never wanted any of her own. Doesn't have them and at 50 isn't likely to and does not regret it.
Her first husband did.He has never remarried and is unlikely to.
Did he waste his 17 years of first marriage?
He knew and choose  to marry a women that did not want children.He seems to have no regrets but if so, has only his choices to blame. Yes a feel empathy for my uncle.Yet the responsibility rests fully on his shoulders.
Alas if he was only an impressionable young man in high school  when all these life decisions happened (he was) ,then we could blame someone or speculate to death what he wanted or changed his life goals.

If i took a random attractive women in her 30's , that has been single for 6 years, has no children, no engagement , no career, my speculation would be that generally those are not truly high priorities in their life.
They might be, but don't appear to be as clearly as is sated here. They may be wishes, she may want them,but her actions in life so far do not speak directly to it,no matter what spin is put on them.

Certainly others will think differently.
None  of us would actually know with any certainty  that a random 30 something  without children,  fits  the mold of either generality. No doubt ,  is a big stretch to me
as the main issue isn't what they might *want*, but their choices in life to attain it.
I  see daily people who want to purchase something,yet make no adjustments or practical decisions that would allow that
to occur,  despite  having opportunity to do so.
Do they really want that? If they do not make choices to make it happen?
Most other people, as a generality would.
So how are the differences  possible if as a generality theywould all want or like to have  item *B*?
Seemingly individuality and different life goals and priorities.

[Misha]

Misha,


She was divorced at 31-32. And yes, it IS hard for an immigrant woman from ground zero, and on a very short time-table. Unless she was basically hopping from one bed to the other. Just accept this.

Why should I just accept it? Are you going to say that it is impossible for a woman who is 31 to date and find a potential husband by the time she is 34? Three years is not enough? Of course there are variables, one of which is whether the expectations are reasonable.

[size=78%]A woman like that would invoke pity in other women because we know a thing or two about being a woman in a foreign country. Period.[/size]

Ah, so it is all about having a pity party

[pitbull]

Ah, so it is all about having a pity party

Yep, was my point from the get-go. A spectacular waste