What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[jone]

What do you mean, seceding from the American continent ? Wouldn't that require quite a lot of trench-digging on their part ?

Sandro, we've always felt that some day the San Andreas fault is gonna cut loose here in California.  The rest of North America will slide into the ocean and California will be left.

[Anotherkiwi]

Sandro, we've always felt that some day the San Andreas fault is gonna cut loose here in California.  The rest of North America will slide into the ocean and California will be left.

Somehow, jone, I think you have that back to front. 

[jone]

Ethnocentrism, my friend.

Ethnocentrism!

[southernX]

To be honest and I don't wish to insult or offend any US citizens on here.
I can't stand the fact that any time there is conflict the US has to stick their nose into it!
I am not political or don't know too much about politics however it seems to me that EVERY time there is a dispute the US have to get involved.
My girl is from Russia and she doesn't even like this situation in fact she hates that it has come to this...

Sorry if I offended I have heaps of US friends and don't wish to offend in any way.
Let these 2 countries sort it out themselves I think

daz

sorry mate iv gotta take the opposite view ,

while no one wants a war or any military conflict , for the world to have reasonable peace & order such actions as putin has done with crimea , right in the guts of europe has to be dealt with strongly imho

if not it will signal the start of more of the same from who knows where , im alarmed here of the bigger ramifications this could have if there is not a cohesive , forcefull response from the world police, , eu, un , nato etc americas role is tied into those entitys

daz , ask yourself this question ,

if indonesia or india , just decided to land into tasmanania or the NT in australia and occupy it with military, with the aim to  anexxe it from australia , would you not wish those world bodys to come to australias, aid if a military conflict broke out ? &we asked them to help ??

currently as i see it , all these treaties and international laws are worthless unless we all help ukraine , for who knows when next it might be one of us ,
might sound implausible , but having been in crimea recently  current situation seems pretty unbelievable to me know as well

australia is wide open to many aggressors should they choose to come here , western democracys need to keep the faith in such events as are happening  to ukraine now , especially if we dont want an nuclear arms race to grow again ,
ukraine would not have this  issue now  if it had kept its nuclear arsenal intact , end of story

we in australia have little idea how dam lucky we are never to have had such military conflicts on our own soil ,
the people of ukraine deserve our help , in any form to get them on the road to a better life , free from corruption and with full transparent laws and gov etc

aggression will not go away by looking the other way , it must be faced and dealt with asap
SX

[jone]

What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?

[Anotherkiwi]

What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?

The ANZUS Treaty for a start - unlike Budapest, this one WAS signed off by all countries involved. 

[southernX]

The ANZUS Treaty for a start - unlike Budapest, this one WAS signed off by all countries involved. 

, thing is , how would we/ANYBODY  view the ANZUS treaty if other treatys are not honoured by signatorys ?

SX 

[fathertime]

daz

sorry mate iv gotta take the opposite view ,

while no one wants a war or any military conflict , for the world to have reasonable peace & order such actions as putin has done with crimea , right in the guts of europe has to be dealt with strongly imho

if not it will signal the start of more of the same from who knows where , im alarmed here of the bigger ramifications this could have if there is not a cohesive , forcefull response from the world police, , eu, un , nato etc americas role is tied into those entitys

daz , ask yourself this question ,

if indonesia or india , just decided to land into tasmanania or the NT in australia and occupy it with military, with the aim to  anexxe it from australia , would you not wish those world bodys to come to australias, aid if a military conflict broke out ? &we asked them to help ??

currently as i see it , all these treaties and international laws are worthless unless we all help ukraine , for who knows when next it might be one of us ,
might sound implausible , but having been in crimea recently  current situation seems pretty unbelievable to me know as well

australia is wide open to many aggressors should they choose to come here , western democracys need to keep the faith in such events as are happening  to ukraine now , especially if we dont want an nuclear arms race to grow again ,
ukraine would not have this  issue now  if it had kept its nuclear arsenal intact , end of story

we in australia have little idea how dam lucky we are never to have had such military conflicts on our own soil ,
the people of ukraine deserve our help , in any form to get them on the road to a better life , free from corruption and with full transparent laws and gov etc

aggression will not go away by looking the other way , it must be faced and dealt with asap
SX

Interesting questions SX,


I would say it isn't a fair comparison at all, if the point is why protect Australia and not Ukraine. 


Without a doubt, even if ANZUS wasn't in place, if  Australia was suddenly attacked/invaded by a country like India, I'd be all for doing something in a hurry and I believe most Americans would feel the same way.  I do believe there are some circumstances where the US should get involved, but others where they should not.  There are many reasons and factors for that.   The conflicts we have entered recently have been bad choices and many, if not most of the American people are very unhappy about it.  Our military is supposed to be for defensive purposes, not to go on the offense in response to everything we consider an 'injustice' in the world.    We are approaching 18 Trillion in debt...we got some serious problems here coming up...


Russia is clearly not going to back down, not under these circumstances.  I'm convinced plenty of the world's  population supports them even if they don't say so.  One of the reasons for this support is a dislike of the how the USA has behaved recently. 


All that being said, maybe it would be wise for Australia to build up a reasonably sized military of it's own if they have concern...the USA can't be in  the business of making everybody feel secure on our nickel.   
[size=78%]  [/size]
Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

If anyone still harbors doubts of the wisdom and morality of fathertime's de facto but very philosophical  appeasement consider the following:



In it the speakers predict World War III breaking out in the Middle East and Asia (not in Ukraine or Russia).

[southernX]

All that being said, maybe it would be wise for Australia to build up a reasonably sized military of it's own if they have concern[size=78%]  [/size]
Fathertime!   

id agree FT, especially if those democarcys who sign international ageements dont honour them into the future, , thus if little support is given to ukraien in this situation, it will imo open the door for many countrys to legitimatly review their defences and opt for the nuclear option , who could argue they should not do so ?

...the USA can't be in  the business of making everybody feel secure on our nickel.   
[size=78%]  [/size]
Fathertime!   

neither can australia or any other country , our economy is no so big we can afford to go to the middle east etc to support you guys either if it is not reciprocal ,
we do so in good faith to keep our international commitments and obligations we signed up for
to break that commitment would leave alot of neagativity ,

remember when NZ banned nuclear ships
?
SX

[Dewed]

What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?

uh.. WWII  ? Japan's naval fleet...  I hated world history in school, but even I recall that one.. Granted it was strategic for the US to have a naval presence there, but it certainly was not without benefits for Australians, like not having to learn Japanese which I gather is a pretty hard language to master.

Personally, I've always considered Australia and the US to be like two good friends with more in common than not.. an alliance I can actually point to with pride. Of course I don't speak for the US government but I'm pretty sure the majority of US citizens feel the same way. We love you guys.. sorry we don't say so often enough.. 

and Fox news / Bill O'Reily??? really?? I haven't watched it but that is the crux and the head honcho of the disinformation machine in the US.. watch if you must, but VERIFY!!!!!     

[southernX]

dewed ,

Personally, I've always considered Australia and the US to be like two good friends with more in common than not.. an alliance I can actually point to with pride. Of course I don't speak for the US government but I'm pretty sure the majority of US citizens feel the same way. We love you guys.. sorry we don't say so often enough.. 

same here , it is why australia has always supported the US,
we might seem laid back or sometimes affront someones sense of patriotism  ,because by and large we are more low key usually ,  but we do have a deep seated sense of fair play and justice , when it counts we will do the right thing
SX

[Dewed]

aw shucks    you made me blush    dagnabit !

[jone]

Of course, you all know that I was teasing when I said that the US wouldn't support Australia.  With the misinformation that is being disseminated throughout the internet, people need to hold on to things that are real.  Friendship with Australia and mutual admiration is one thing that is real and will never go away.  When the the 1st Marines landed in Melbourne after fighting in Guadalcanal, they were treated as the saviors of Australia.  Many a good Marine was lost to the warm embraces of the Aussie women whose men were off fighting in Burma.

The friendship and love between Australia and the US has never been stronger.  I cannot imagine the US not immediately coming to Australia's defense in the event of an emergency. Nor could we imagine the Aussies not doing the same in our time of need.

Perhaps that is why when we see Russians and Ukrainians in showdown mode, we shake our heads in disbelief.  Like the US and Australia, Ukraine and Russia should be brothers.  We all believe it to be inconceivable that people from any part of Ukraine would think that people from another part of Ukraine would wish them ill.  It just isn't true.

I believe that the US should not be involved, simply because outsiders should never try and intervene in a family argument.  But should there be violence and death promulgated by a husband on his wife, i.e., the stronger on the weaker, then it is time to defend the weaker, the abused.

[lonedrake]

Nobody is frightened of Russia.

 Not quite nobody. I am.

 Each day I hope someone will kill Putin. LT won't even try. But thats what I hope. My wife and "everyone" in her city is in agreement. One man causes problems for all.

[Gator]

  What makes you think that the US would EVER consider coming to Australia's defense?

uh.. WWII  ? Japan's naval fleet...  I hated world history in school, but even I recall that one..

One million American troops passed through Australia in preparation for combat campaigns and rest and recuperation afterwards.    Meanwhile, many Australian men were away, fighting in North Africa  and the Pacific theater and later Europe.   

Given that the Australia population was only about 7 million then,  the relatively large presence of American troops gave rise to the phrase, "Over sexed, over paid, and over here."   

[Faux Pas]

uh.. WWII  ? Japan's naval fleet...  I hated world history in school, but even I recall that one..

 "Over sexed, over paid, and over here."   

Of course that was closer to your generation than mine Gator but, I believe that was a cry of the Brits in WWII?   

[Larry1]

Of course that was closer to your generation than mine Gator but, I believe that was a cry of the Brits in WWII?   

That's what I thought too.

[lordtiberius]

LT won't even try. But thats what I hope.

I really wish you didn't say this.  First of all, I value my life especially now when I have people that are depending on me.  Second, whoever kills Putin in an extrajudicial context face certain death and Putin will be martyred.  Third, I have seen men die - evil men too.  They are still human beings, still someone's brother, someone's Dad, someone's husband, someone's son.  People are too casual about this stuff and it makes me sick.  We should be preserving lives not taking them.

[lonedrake]

I really wish you didn't say this.  First of all, I value my life especially now when I have people that are depending on me.  Second, whoever kills Putin in an extrajudicial context face certain death and Putin will be martyred.  Third, I have seen men die - evil men too.  They are still human beings, still someone's brother, someone's Dad, someone's husband, someone's son.  People are too casual about this stuff and it makes me sick.  We should be preserving lives not taking them.

Now you are a pacifist 


You call everyone a coward for not wanting to stand up and go to war......and now this???   

Where is the koo-koo emotion?

[lordtiberius]

I don't have anything positive to contribute. Except that you may have misunderstood me.  Anyway, its not worth clarifying. So I will ask you nicely to keep my name out of your mouth and we can keep it the same.  Good luck with your family.

[lonedrake]

LT,

 I understand both of our emotions are high due to our where both of our spouses are from. I will do my best to be respectful and keep to the issues. My BIL, who is 45, was called into the army yesterday. Now I am not going to say that I know him well, but he has been nothing but nice to me. We even have skyped. He is always interested in seeing "guy" stuff. (truck,atvs,guns,tools etc)

 They are getting ready for war.

 I will give you a quote from what you said. Maybe I misunderstood? There is no need for me to convince my wife of anything.

The second thing you can do is convince the Russian spouses that Putin is an evil madman and that it is in their interest too to stop this man.

[Dewed]

Ok, it's late here I really should be asleep, but as I see it...

assassinate Putin, you have a remake of what started WWI

Do nothing, you have a remake of what started WWII   

options?

[Dewed]

PS.. perhaps it's the sleep deprivation speaking, but I feel the need to point out I can publicly post the words "assassinate Putin" as a single sentence without fear of.. well anything.

Many do not have the luxury, and those that do, take it for granted. Those that don't assume I'll soon be dead or imprisoned

Good night and see you tomorrow

[pokerintherear]

PS.. perhaps it's the sleep deprivation speaking, but I feel the need to point out I can publicly post the words "assassinate Putin" as a single sentence without fear of.. well anything.

Many do not have the luxury, and those that do, take it for granted. Those that don't assume I'll soon be dead or imprisoned

Good night and see you tomorrow

And as you will see you will forget what you posted by tomorrow. As a moderator you will delete and edit speech and opinions contrary to what you write.

Power always goes to a persons head. Whether it be a President or school hall monitor. Eventually they become drunk with power and know better than all. Forum moderators are some of the worst drunkards. But the smart ones can handle their liquor.

This advice I give you with a handshake and pat on the back gesture of good luck.