What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[GQBlues]

well my dear friends ,i am not here to degrade anyone, i am making the stand of my country clear ,i believe in a healthy debate everyone must be heard ,we still support Russia , US , Ukraine and will always be so,  my point is there should be no war between US and Russia as per the title of this topic  , eye for an eye will only make us blind, think about the catastrophic effects it will have on the people on both the sides , why should millions of people suffer for the ego battle between Obama & Putin , that is all my point                                                  

Actually I'm with you on this vig. I agree. Western media is a bit slanted if I dare say about this crisis so folks easily disregard what they're not 'reading' or 'hearing' about.

Putin in Crimea today is akin to Clinton in Kosovo nary 20 years ago. The US and 'most' EU members didn't have much trouble 'recognizing' Kosovo as an independent state when it was well in their geographical favor before and Russia was at its weakest state, but seem to exercise a bit of a double standard here when the land-grab shoe is on the other foot, no?
.
I won't be surprise there was an urgent need from Obama, due to the Syrian fiasco, to one-up Putin and go along with tempting fate and initiate their silly activities in Ukraine which prompted an 'expected' and understandable reaction from Putin.

Of course, like in B-Ball, the refs always call foul on the reactionary play.

I've said it before, it's all a political BS with people dying. Sadly, Ukraine got caught in a well-spunned western spider trap.

[lordtiberius]

I hear this moral equivalence all the time when I speak to Russians about Kosovo. 

1. I didn't vote for Clinton.  I don't think he was a good president or a good man.

2. If you really feel that way, then charge him in the Hague.  Invite him to Russia and arrest him like the did Pinochet like they are trying to do with Bush and Kissinger.

The Russian people want war.  Their economy sucks and is growing at less than 1% which means it is not growing at all.  People who whine about US coverage are getting their news from RT which is obviously unbiased.   

War is evil and must be avoided.  But if you can't avoid it, then you must be prepared to end it.

[Muzh]

Putin in Crimea today is akin to Clinton in Kosovo nary 20 years ago. The US and 'most' EU members didn't have much trouble 'recognizing' Kosovo as an independent state when it was well in their geographical favor before and Russia was at its weakest state, but seem to exercise a bit of a double standard here when the land-grab shoe is on the other foot, no?

LMAO
 
You should have seen the Soviet Russians 30 years prior to that when they were very strong and how the felt about Kososvo.
 
http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov

[fathertime]

DUH, because they speak English, sort of.
 
And they have a ton of blond and blue eyed people.
 
What's the matter with you? Dense? 

Muzh



I think that is an unfair charge you are making.  The claim being that because Australia is full of blonds we would care more.  From what i saw Ukraine was also full of blonds.  In addition the hypothetical SX gave, used India or Indonesia invading Australia, so that is what somebody would have to respond to, to stay on topic.    If he had said Russia was invading Australia I would have given a similar response.


I've noticed that you often look at things through the lens of Race, even when it is not an important factor....I don't know why you decide to do this, but presumably you have your reasons. 


Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

LMAO
 
You should have seen the Soviet Russians Ukrainians 30 years prior to that when they were very strong and how the felt about Kososvo.
 
http://feldgrau.info/index.php/2010-09-02-14-48-28/8548-sovetskie-antiyugoslavskie-karikatury-1949-1951-godov

Hah! 50 years ago? Wouldn't that also include Ukrainians?  Actually that would put us right smack into either Stalin, a Georgian, or maybe even Mr. Ukrainian himself, Nikita Kruschev, no?

LOL. These overlords are one and the same. It's just a question on what uniforms and flag they're flying under and at what time or what place in this world it is.

Everyone's hand is historically bloodied. Sure, some more so than others. But I honestly believe we, Americans, are hardly sitting in the saint aisle even now.

[fathertime]

Most people's goals is the same as yours, to save people's lives. That is why some of us think Obama should take a harder stance at stopping Putin now before things escalate beyond anybody's control with the cost of more lives.


Not everybody can be successful like Ghandi. Not every situation can be solved peacefully. I have great respect for Ghandi but I don't think if Obama and America starves themselves peacefully as a way to protest Putin's actions, he will feel sorry for us and change his ways.

Hi BillyB!


This is presuming that Russia is going to escalate things.  My thought is these opportunities don't come along that often so I don't see any forthcoming escalation at all.  Putin made his move and for the most part it is over IF there is no further provocation.   If we were to presume that was the going to be the case, then wouldn't it make sense to leave it alone, as that would save the most lives, as compared to going headlong into a war/proxy war with Russia?  I'm convinced that if we involve ourselves, Russia will dig it's heals in and fight it out...the human loss in that case would be ghastly.  Since they consider Crimea theirs now and if we take a battle to 'their' soil...well then who is to say they don't lob some shots into the states?...all I would see is losers...no winners if that happens. 




Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

This is presuming that Russia is going to escalate things. 

Those who believe Putin is going to stop are presuming things too. Crimea is over. If Putin were done, he'd probably take a break and go on vacation. Instead, Hitler Putin is making daily speeches to his public that the West are hypocrites and Russia may change it's stance on Iran. He's making hate speeches, making threats that could make the world a dangerous place for the West, and firing up his citizens to gain support. Why is he doing that now if this is supposed to be over?

[GQBlues]

A recent news is developing at press time that Moscow had grown weary and concern about the safety and well-being of Russians living in America. Due to the recent crisis happening in Ukraine, the Russian President expressed concerns about their state and welfare that he felt may suffer as a result of western society's uninformed and overly-dramatic and emotionally-misguided reactions and make the lives of ordinary Russians within the US border and populace less than comforting.

As a result, he immediately lobbied for the Kremlin Council to approve mobilizing a large force to a strategically predetermined US city to take-over and act as a refuge area available for all Russian nationals to seek shelter in.

Upon hearing this new development, US Foreign Affair expert and Vice-President Joe Biden took time off from selling Obamacare Insurance at a nearby university campus and excitedly screamed, "Annex Detroit! You may take Detroit Komrade!"

[Gator]

well my friend , Non-Violence was the weapon with which my country's freedom fighters won Independence from Britain , it runs in the blood of every single true Indian
 

Non-violence towards the British, yes, even though the Brits slaughtered Indians.  We all know Gandhi and admire him. 

OTOH, partitioning pitted Indian vs. Indian, displaced 15 million Indians from their homes, and killed anywhere from 200,000 to one million.  Not exactly non-violent. 

[fathertime]

Those who believe Putin is going to stop are presuming things too. Crimea is over. If Putin were done, he'd probably take a break and go on vacation. Instead, Hitler Putin is making daily speeches to his public that the West are hypocrites and Russia may change it's stance on Iran. He's making hate speeches, making threats that could make the world a dangerous place for the West, and firing up his citizens to gain support. Why is he doing that now if this is supposed to be over?

Yes we are both presuming then.   


I'd like to address your logic for a moment.  You say Putin is making daily speeches to the public that we are hypocrites, if he is then he is telling the truth.  You also said he is making 'hate' speeches, those are your words characterizing his speeches.  Can you show me the text of one of these 'hate speeches'?  I'd like to see if I'd agree with you regarding if they are hate speeches. 


Why is he making speeches?  Well I think it is a big deal in Russia what he has done.  They have 10's of 1000's of troops on the ground.  He needs to make speeches.  Our politicians are also making speeches full of threats, so doesn't that make it a dangerous place for the East? 


Fathertime!

[missAmeno]

... 'hate' speeches...

Would you consider as 'hate' speeches those speeches that state your country is not a state but a land that belongs to Russia or those that state that your country will become a target of russians nuclear missiles if joins NATO?

[GQBlues]

Would you consider as 'hate' speeches those speeches that state your country is not a state but a land that belongs to Russia or those that state that your country will become a target of russians nuclear missiles if joins NATO?

That isn't what he said, MissA. His reference was solely Crimea, and no, it isn't a state. It's an Autonomous Republic that can choose its own destiny at any given time through referendum. They are free to choose whose dominion they fall under, and in this case they chose Russia instead of Ukraine largely due to the chaos in Kiev.

Hell, one of these days Puerto Rico may elect to be back in Spain's dominion instead of the US, if so, it doesn't make it illegal or wrong for them to do so.

[fathertime]

Would you consider as 'hate' speeches those speeches that state your country is not a state but a land that belongs to Russia or those that state that your country will become a target of russians nuclear missiles if joins NATO?

1.  I would need to see the speech in context to understand better what he was saying. 


2. GQBlues has written that he didn't even say it the way you are now characterizing it.


3.  If you are able to present the context of the 'hate speech', that would help. I'd really like to see what you guys are referencing as hate speeches by Putin. 


Thanks,
Fathertime!   

[missAmeno]

GQ, I referenced to Ukraine because Putin never wanted just Crimea and never was hiding that either.

FT, something along the lines of "You don't understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us." Context: Ukraine is little Russia.

P.S. I have no intentions to write about history of about one and a half millennium to explain what Putin believes and why he is delusional.

[southernX]

.  In addition the hypothetical SX gave, used India or Indonesia invading Australia, so that is what somebody would have to respond to, to stay on topic.    If he had said Russia was invading Australia I would have given a similar response.

Fathertime!

FT,
my hypothetical question was merely to point out to daz , how we would feel/respond if a larger populated near neighbouring country decided it wanted a starting point within australia for occupation & annexation ,

on my part there was no race /slur intended, hopefully none was given to anybody,

my point was to use alocal example of how any treatys/international law would be viewed in the aftermath of crimea if substantial action is not shown to russia ,
to not care &let them sort it out themselves will in the future invite the following

1 all countrys will review defence spending , with an aim to more arms proliferation across the globe, including nukes,
2 all countrys complete reluctance to not only sign agreements, but to honour them
3 many of the worlds countrys will  view argression on a near valuable neighbour possibly very differently
regardless of ''friendliness '' to each other

4 many countrys with internal ethinic issues may now have to deal with independence issues from within , including russia , as ethnic minoritys view this ''legal annexation of crimea '' within the accepted methods of achieving their aim

lots of other outcomes, but the ripple effect will last for along long time , even if putin stops at crimea

SX

[Vinnvinny]

3.  If you are able to present the context of the 'hate speech', that would help. I'd really like to see what you guys are referencing as hate speeches by Putin. 

fathertime: I think you will find that missAmeno is in fact a female. I'm rarely wrong on such matters ...

[jone]

Dr. Vinny to the rescue!

[Vinnvinny]

Dr. Vinny to the rescue!

Well I mean …

Its all very well waffling on about war between the USA and Russia (which aint gonna happen) but if we’re going to start referring to all sexes as ‘guys’ then it wont be long before the big Chief in the sky brings the curtain down on all of us. This nonsense, together with selfies, must be stopped immediately (IMO).

[fathertime]

fathertime: I think you will find that missAmeno is in fact a female. I'm rarely wrong on such matters ...

Ha!  you got me there.

GQ, I referenced to Ukraine because Putin never wanted just Crimea and never was hiding that either.

FT, something along the lines of "You don't understand, George, that Ukraine is not even a state. What is Ukraine? Part of its territories is Eastern Europe, but the greater part is a gift from us." Context: Ukraine is little Russia.

P.S. I have no intentions to write about history of about one and a half millennium to explain what Putin believes and why he is delusional.

Well From MissAmeno, To this point you have NOT backed up the earlier assertion that Putin was giving "Hate Speeches".    I imagine BillyB will be able to though.  I genuinely wanted to see what it is that had people saying he was 'crazy' and had 'hate speeches'...to this point he has always appeared rational to me...but I'm sure others have seen things that I haven't.


Fathertime! 

[GQBlues]

Ha!  you got me there.



Well From MissAmeno, To this point you have NOT backed up the earlier assertion that Putin was giving "Hate Speeches".    I imagine BillyB will be able to though.  I genuinely wanted to see what it is that had people saying he was 'crazy' and had 'hate speeches'...to this point he has always appeared rational to me...but I'm sure others have seen things that I haven't.


Fathertime!

Eng.kremlin.ru/news/6889

[BillyB]

You say Putin is making daily speeches to the public that we are hypocrites, if he is then he is telling the truth.   

Truth is not the issue here. The issue is he's making these speeches when he didn't do so in the past. The facts and truths were always there to talk about in the past so why is Putin behaving differently now? I can tell you something bad about every one of my family members, friends, enemies, and people I work around. I can tell you these are truths. It's easy for one to believe these truths because everybody and every nation has faults. It's not a goal of mine to go around and tell these truths to get people angry at, put down, and laugh at the people I know. Now if I had an agenda to have you guys hate those people, I would. Most everybody have, at one or more times, used words, lies or truths, to gain support from others for personal reasons. Let's say a kid in the playground wants to beat up another kid. Before getting in a fight, he goes around to other friends and talks bad about the kid he wants to beat up. He's trying to get approval and possibly physical support to help beat up his enemy.

You also said he is making 'hate' speeches, those are your words characterizing his speeches.  Can you show me the text of one of these 'hate speeches'?  I'd like to see if I'd agree with you regarding if they are hate speeches. 

You and I get along fine on this forum. At one time Obama and Putin got along fine, at least that is what we've seen on cameras. But lets say in public, I now begin to call you a fanatic, hypocrite, and won't support you on what you think is threatening your life, say Iran. To sum it up, I just told you that we're not friends anymore, I will act as your enemy and I don't care if you die. My words can be construed as hateful and even harmful. By claiming it's true, does it give me any more right to say these things? Certainly our friendship will be over. Putin's friendship, if there ever was one, is over with the West. He wants to gain the support for his actions from his people so he must say something bad about those he's about to hurt.


Putin's talk is working. There are plenty of Russian supporters, some are here, that think Ukraine and the West deserves what it got and will support what is coming, death included.


I won't criticize your position that America should stay out of everybody's business. I won't criticize America or Russia for getting in everybody's business. We have friends in every country and so does Russia. I respect the fact strong nations take care of their friends. With great power comes great responsibility but, we have differences and somebody is going to get their way in the end. If I had the choice in picking Russia or America in getting their way and be top dog, I'd choose America. Most will say the world will be a better place with America on top and some will say it's the lessor of two evils. Either way most would want America on top.

[BillyB]

Ha!  you got me there.

He didn't get you exactly. When you referred to MissAmeno and I as "guys", you used the word correctly. "Guys" is a gender neutral word that refers to a group of people who doesn't have to be all males. BUT, if you thought MISSAmeno was a male, you fooled yourself.

[fathertime]

Truth is not the issue here. The issue is he's making these speeches when he didn't do so in the past. The facts and truths were always there to talk about in the past so why is Putin behaving differently now? I can tell you something bad about every one of my family members, friends, enemies, and people I work around. I can tell you these are truths. It's easy for one to believe these truths because everybody and every nation has faults. It's not a goal of mine to go around and tell these truths to get people angry at, put down, and laugh at the people I know. Now if I had an agenda to have you guys hate those people, I would. Most everybody have, at one or more times, used words, lies or truths, to gain support from others for personal reasons. Let's say a kid in the playground wants to beat up another kid. Before getting in a fight, he goes around to other friends and talks bad about the kid he wants to beat up. He's trying to get approval and possibly physical support to help beat up his enemy.



You and I get along fine on this forum. At one time Obama and Putin got along fine, at least that is what we've seen on cameras. But lets say in public, I now begin to call you a fanatic, hypocrite, and won't support you on what you think is threatening your life, say Iran. To sum it up, I just told you that we're not friends anymore, I will act as your enemy and I don't care if you die. My words can be construed as hateful and even harmful. By claiming it's true, does it give me any more right to say these things? Certainly our friendship will be over. Putin's friendship, if there ever was one, is over with the West. He wants to gain the support for his actions from his people so he must say something bad about those he's about to hurt.


Putin's talk is working. There are plenty of Russian supporters, some are here, that think Ukraine and the West deserves what it got and will support what is coming, death included.


I won't criticize your position that America should stay out of everybody's business. I won't criticize America or Russia for getting in everybody's business. We have friends in every country and so does Russia. I respect the fact strong nations take care of their friends. With great power comes great responsibility but, we have differences and somebody is going to get their way in the end. If I had the choice in picking Russia or America in getting their way and be top dog, I'd choose America. Most will say the world will be a better place with America on top and some will say it's the lessor of two evils. Either way most would want America on top.

Hey Billyb!  Damn right we get along fine...I like your style and way you argue...BUT...In this case you (among others) did say he is making hate speeches and threats publicly....I'm not reading that...the opinion you gave has been said so often that it is just accepted...and I'm not seeing the hard evidence of 'craziness or hate', but I might if somebody gave me either a transcript or the public speech where he was exuding hate.  I'm open to the POSSIBILITY but the case has not been made.


  That recent speech GQblues cited was extremely level-headed IMO.  Perhaps people are getting caught up in the endless western propaganda and labeling Putin that they are not actually listening to what he has said?  That would be ironic, because that is exactly the accusation many make of people that are giving their interpretation of the Russian position. 


What we do know is that Russia has taken Crimea and they aren't giving it up without a big fight.  Are we willing to fight over a small part of Crimea that means a lot to Russia and very little to us? 






Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

I'm not seeing the hard evidence of 'craziness or hate',

I've never been one to say Putin is crazy. He's smart. He'll always be one step ahead of Obama and a few steps ahead of he average Joe.

That recent speech GQblues cited was extremely level-headed IMO. 

Putin's speech was during a time of celebration. He's not going to hate talk 100% of the time.

I'm not seeing the hard evidence of 'craziness or hate', but I might if somebody gave me either a transcript or the public speech where he was exuding hate.  I'm open to the POSSIBILITY but the case has not been made.

Putin doesn't like us. Can we agree on that?

Are we willing to fight over a small part of Crimea that means a lot to Russia and very little to us? 

If this was only about Crimea, no, we shouldn't start a war over that but we should've park our troops in there to join Russia in protecting Russian citizens from the fanatics. Let them expose themselves and decide if they want to fight a war over that piece of land. Crimea is one piece to a larger puzzle. Putin desires to have more than Crimea. Anybody not believe that? Let's hope Putin's desires and actions are two different things.


Fathertime, you think this will end at Crimea. A few years ago I thought like you and thought it would end at Georgia after Russia invaded them. What more could they want? The West's response to the invasion of Georgia was weak. Putin understood that. The West's response to Crimea was weak. Putin understood that. Rinse and repeat. Putin has and will continue to exploit weakness. This is the reputation he's earning.

[cc3]

That's me!

 ....the state of American politically correct public school education....