What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[Muzh]

You seem to think the position I've taken as it pertains to further Russian aggression is 'passive-aggressive'...
 

Nope, just how you seem to relish getting other people's goats. Sometimes when you are blatant about it, you seem to make an about face and pretend to agree, just to keep things going.
 

.or maybe I'm blind.... Why do you think this? 
 

I was just being nice. 
 

I don't see a compelling reason for Russia to move into those Eastern cities...that doesn't mean that they won't...that just means I don't think they will.  The negatives are too great. From what I'm gathering, you must feel the Russians are going to move into the cities...why do you think this?

I believe you are lying. Even Russian citizens believe Putler is going to march into eastern Ukraine. After all, eastern Ukraine is a mistake. Right, Belvis?

I can see how someone would argue that I'm blind, but how  is taking that position 'passive-aggressive'?  If me taking that position is 'passive-aggressive' then isn't the position you are taking also 'passive-aggressive'? 


Thanks,
Fathertime!

Remember I have three children and they went through their stages recently. So it is easy for me to pick up on little bits here and there.

[fathertime]

Nope, just how you seem to relish getting other people's goats. Sometimes when you are blatant about it, you seem to make an about face and pretend to agree, just to keep things going.
 
I was just being nice. 
 
I believe you are lying. Even Russian citizens believe Putler is going to march into eastern Ukraine. After all, eastern Ukraine is a mistake. Right, Belvis?
 
Remember I have three children and they went through their stages recently. So it is easy for me to pick up on little bits here and there.

Well Muzh, maybe you should just forget that the view is coming from me then, and argue the points.  I won't 'pretend' to agree with you, unless I actually do. 
 Nowhere in what you have just written did you state your own position....you did state what you must feel is the 'Russian position' from fellow Russians.   
I did not believe the hype that Russia is moving into Eastern Ukraine a few weeks ago, nor do I now...You apparently do... So in a few weeks or months should I come back and say you were a hysterical alarmist, or some other phrase as you are doing now?  I'd rather just discuss the points and reasons.  You have not stated why you feel Putin is going to move into E. Ukraine or farther....I guess you don't want to look like a fool when it doesn't happen, I get you, I had an uncle your age once so it is easy to pick up on little bits and pieces.  See I was being nice too.   


Fathertime!   

[Muzh]

Well Muzh, maybe you should just forget that the view is coming from me then, and argue the points.  I won't 'pretend' to agree with you, unless I actually do. 
 Nowhere in what you have just written did you state your own position....you did state what you must feel is the 'Russian position' from fellow Russians.   
I did not believe the hype that Russia is moving into Eastern Ukraine a few weeks ago, nor do I now...You apparently do... So in a few weeks or months should I come back and say you were a hysterical alarmist, or some other phrase as you are doing now?  I'd rather just discuss the points and reasons.  You have not stated why you feel Putin is going to move into E. Ukraine or farther....I guess you don't want to look like a fool when it doesn't happen, I get you, I had an uncle your age once so it is easy to pick up on little bits and pieces.  See I was being nice too.   


Fathertime!

You are such a peach.
 
At the very begininig I was telling what's-her-name in Krim that Putler was not stoopid, therefore he would not invade Crimea. No reason for getting wet on that. That was just illogical for him to do so. I was CONVINCED no additional Russian troops would come into Crimea. You know how that turned out.
 
Well, Putler is just recycling history. As illogical it is for him to do so, he is intent on recycling history.
 
Now, here is you. Are you really trying to play the part of isolationist? Somehow, you don't fit the mold. So, what's your story?
 
And Jone, I never saw him claim he was a physician. And if he did I would say Bullshevik to that.

[fathertime]

You are such a peach.
 
At the very begininig I was telling what's-her-name in Krim that Putler was not stoopid, therefore he would not invade Crimea. No reason for getting wet on that. That was just illogical for him to do so. I was CONVINCED no additional Russian troops would come into Crimea. You know how that turned out.
 
Well, Putler is just recycling history. As illogical it is for him to do so, he is intent on recycling history.
 
Now, here is you. Are you really trying to play the part of isolationist? Somehow, you don't fit the mold. So, what's your story?
 

So you are using history for your predictions going forward....I am not....the world is too different to think that what happened in the past is going to parallel this recent event...at least that is my opinion.....


Why is it 'playing the role' of the isolationist?  Are you 'playing the role' of being a liberal?  I just rather take you at your word that you are a liberal, and go from there....
gotta roll....see you this evening.
Fathertime!   

[Muzh]

So you are using history for your predictions going forward....I am not....the world is too different to think that what happened in the past is going to parallel this recent event...at least that is my opinion.....
 

I'm not making predictions. It is obvious you never took History of Western Civilization in college. 
 
The only difference today is the speed of the killing. Nothing else has changed. I'm really surprised I have to tell you this since you seem "well-informed."

Why is it 'playing the role' of the isolationist?  Are you 'playing the role' of being a liberal?  I just rather take you at your word that you are a liberal, and go from there....
gotta roll....see you this evening.
Fathertime!

I'm not playing any role. I AM a liberal. Hope that helps. CYA tomorrow. I don't do RWD at night.

[jone]

There is a great difference between the 200 armed men who have taken over the government building in Donetsk and those that showed up in Kyiv to protest government corruption in Maidan.

1.  These men are heavily armed with the sole purpose of creating chaos in the region.

2.  They have called for immediate armed incursion by the Russians.

3.  They appear to be supplied with military armaments that could only have come from Russia.

Quite honestly, folks, this is the move everyone was anticipating.  Now, more than ever, I believe that Russia will invade.

[Muzh]

People who seized Donetsk regional administration armed with machine guns and grenade launchers
 
 

[Chelseaboy]

Fathertime,

                   No,it isn't my question that's stupid..it's your  repetitive claim that what has happened in Crimea is a win/win situation that is stupid.

Maybe now the killing has started,you will stop insulting the families of the bereaved with your ludicrous win/win claims.

For someone who admits to fully expecting deaths to occur over what happened, your insensitivity to the situation is pretty crass IMO.

[Muzh]

The only thing, I believe, holding Putler back is China's abstention at the UN Security Council Meeting.

[jone]

I think the horror of what is about to unfold is particularly devastating to those people with loved ones in the region.  My prayers are with all of the families on both sides of the border, but particularly with the Ukrainians who cannot put up a defense without outside assistance. 

I think the moves yesterday were planned out for two months and that this is the precursor to invasion.

I have never been to Donetsk, but I have spent a good amount of time in Eastern Ukraine and Kharkiv.  I cannot imagine the boots of Russian soldiers in this city, nor of the number of Ukrainian dead as a result of Putin's land grab.

Muzh, while I would like to believe your signature line, I personally think Putin is crazy and is on the same level as Hitler.

[Gator]

 
The interesting fact is that the majority of isolationists here in the US hate Obama. Ironic.
 

Talking about me?  No offense, yet some clarification is necessary.

Yes, I consider Obama an empty suit.  I am not an isolationist, yet feel this is Europe's lead with our support. 

One key reason is because this issue is in Europe's backyard, the future trade will be mostly with EU-UA, and the largest risk is supply of gas to EU.  Thus, Europe has the most to gain and lose, and Europe knows the participants better than we do.

Another part of my reasoning is because Obama has weakened our international stature.  So we are not operating from a position of strength.

Finally, and this is my major reason:  I believe Obama and his staff would screw up big in a chess match with Putin. 

Thus, let Europe take the lead.  Nevertheless, there is much we can in the form of support.  Besides aid, we could reverse Obama's energy policies to become a significant source of gas for Europe and Ukraine - frack more and accelerate LNG exports.  Maybe we expand our NATO presence. 

[BillyB]

My wife didn't sleep last night at all. All she did was sob in bed.

My wife stopped reading the news. She's tired of having her nerves shaken.


Guys, don't be so hard on Fathertime. Although he's in the minority here with his views, when all the heads are counted around the world, he's probably in the majority.


Is it a coincidence a lot of things have been happening around the world the past month not related to Russia? Israel a victim to rocket attacks.  Israel threating to take matters in their own hands over Iranian nukes. China pursuing more real estate and using military force to starve Filipinos on an island. N Korea shooting in S Korea's waters. Japan feeling insecure about N Korea and China and asking for America to do something so we send warships over there to ease their fears. Many people are comfortable with their lives and don't care what happens elsewhere in the world. Maybe some of these things are happening to turn our attention away from Russia at Putin's request? Maybe these things are happening because those nations and terrorists know Obama doesn't like to use force? History has shown what it takes and the ingredients for WW3 are present.

[alex330]

Quite honestly, folks, this is the move everyone was anticipating.  Now, more than ever, I believe that Russia will invade.

MIL said they are quite sure it will happen soon as well. There are people on the buses and trams in who are not from the city praising Russia and filling the sheeps heads with nonsense. At this point they are just waiting for the troops to roll in.

[Muzh]

The latest is that the fcuking pig of Akhmetov was responsible for paying and arming the Pro-Russian demonstrators in Donetsk. He wants his little kingdom. It seems that the not-so-secret meeting he had with Putler a month or so ago was to discuss the partition of Ukraine in little kingdoms and all of them reporting to Putler.
 
This way the goddamn pig keeps his billions, is still the richest "Ukrainian" and doesn't have to compete with the Russian oligarchs.
 
What a piece of shit.
 
To make matters worse Acting President Yulia Turchimov and the Prime Minister Arsney Timoshenko are still trying to figure out what to do. Like nothing. And the Russian Ukrainian military commanders are still playing scrabble until the "peaceful greens" cross the border (what? they are not there yet?) come to the rescue of Belogrod citizens in Eastern Ukraine.
 
Oh boy. The country is doomed.
 
It is true. At least with Yanukonvict there was a Ukraine.
 
BOHICA

[pokerintherear]

I think you will see something happen around the election or the day before the election. Possibly Putin will roll some tanks across the border to disrupt the election and put Ukraine in total turmoil. Just an intrusion a kilometer or so will cause total chaos and turn the election upside down.

The West already screwed up. From the very beginning they should have reacted differently. The rules of engagement were thrown out the window. This being, you always have a plan based on the very, very worst scenario you think your aggressor can take. This would have been planning strategics on the assumption Putin would take all of Crimea and rolling North taking Eastern Ukraine with support from Russian military moving from Western Russia.

NATO and the West should have reacted with a show of force in Crimea and the Eastern part of Ukraine immediately. You hesitate you lose. Putin most likely won't hesitate with the opportunity of Eastern Ukraine. The West should already be prepared but of course we have final 4 brackets to fill and gay marriage issues to deal with along with trying to convince people a passed healthcare law is good. Hell its the law. You should not have to convince anybody. They are required to have it.

[Gator]

 
My wife didn't sleep last night at all. All she did was sob in bed. ......This is a woman that for years would identify herself as Russian because they were one people. Now, it is not pleasant what she says of Russians.
 
Really sad.

This latest news is troubling, yet don't you think it has Putin written all over it?

Is your wife from eastern Ukraine?  Near the Russian border?  As a little girl, did she speak Ukrainian or Russian with her parents? 

I am asking to understand how ethnically Ukrainian is she.     I assume she is Slavic and Orthodox, which would align her with Russians.   

My wife grew up in western Siberia.  She is half-Cossack, half-Russian, which makes her essentially Slavic, and she is very much Orthodox.  She says she has always identified with Ukrainian people as brothers and sisters.  She has not taken a hard position one way or the other, except she is not a Putin fan and does not want military combat. 

[Muzh]

This latest news is troubling, yet don't you think it has Putin written all over it?
 

Joke of the day. LMFAO Seriously, I almost chocked on my coffee.
 
Are you suggesting this is a Ukrainian initiative? Really? These are thugs not academia types we are talking about. Because they have billions doesn't mean they have class or education.

Is your wife from eastern Ukraine?  Near the Russian border?  As a little girl, did she speak Ukrainian or Russian with her parents? 

I am asking to understand how ethnically Ukrainian is she.     I assume she is Slavic and Orthodox, which would align her with Russians. 
 

She was born and raised in Xapkib and she would not set foot on a Ukrainian Orthodox church until recently. She speaks both but would pride herself that she could speak Ukrainian fluently. Her mother and sister do not speak Ukrainian. However, her nephew talks in Ukrainian exclusively unless he has to speak in Russian. He was raised in Russian language and went to the same school his mother and aunt went to which specializes in languages.
 
 

My wife grew up in western Siberia.  She is half-Cossack, half-Russian, which makes her essentially Slavic, and she is very much Orthodox.  She says she has always identified with Ukrainian people as brothers and sisters.  She has not taken a hard position one way or the other, except she is not a Putin fan and does not want military combat.

My wife's uncle (mama's brother) lives in Omsk. He is a retired Air Force pilot and big shot. He says they are all making stuff up. Says he hasn't seen any news about any invasion and refuses to believe what his sister tells him.

[Dewed]

Still taking this all in.. but I can't help but think these are the actions of ACTORVISTS .. not activists .

How many are actually partaking in this rebellion and not being paid to incite rebellion?

[jone]

One of the Ukrainian government ministers said today that the typical activist is being paid $500 from slush funds provided by the Russian government.  After all the accusations of American money funding Maidan, I am sure that in the head of the Russian government, they would think such actions are both legitimate and appropriate.

[Larry1]

At least with Yanukonvict there was a Ukraine.

[BC]

One of the Ukrainian government ministers said today that the typical activist is being paid $500 from slush funds provided by the Russian government.  After all the accusations of American money funding Maidan, I am sure that in the head of the Russian government, they would think such actions are both legitimate and appropriate.

Well.. the concept albeit a bit afar from UA, that funding of democratic processes should not be limited, was recently upheld as constitutional in one western country.

Even 'activists' and their families have to eat.

No foul by today's playbook.

[fathertime]

I'm not making predictions. It is obvious you never took History of Western Civilization in college. 
 
The only difference today is the speed of the killing. Nothing else has changed. I'm really surprised I have to tell you this since you seem "well-informed."

Since you are the western civilization 'buff'...why were you shouting from rooftops that Russia wasn't going to take Crimea wise guy?  That was the most obvious  move they would make.   Maybe you can blame it on your teacher or something...obviously you failed the class.  So where is the rest of the invasion you are now promising us?


Fathertime!   

[jone]

Well.. the concept albeit a bit afar from UA, that funding of democratic processes should not be limited, was recently upheld as constitutional in one western country.

Even 'activists' and their families have to eat.

No foul by today's playbook.

Hell, BC,

 We funded an entire election in '08 based on a paid activist staff.  Only then it was called ACORN.

[fathertime]

Fathertime,

                   No,it isn't my question that's stupid..it's your  repetitive claim that what has happened in Crimea is a win/win situation that is stupid.

Maybe now the killing has started,you will stop insulting the families of the bereaved with your ludicrous win/win claims.

For someone who admits to fully expecting deaths to occur over what happened, your insensitivity to the situation is pretty crass IMO.

Yes Chelseaboy the original question WAS stupid. I'm sure more people will be killed too.  People were being killed before the Russian invasion of Crimea, that is how these things go.   Believe it or not there are far greater tragedies going on in the world. 


Now back to win/win...yes I think ultimately it will be a win/win...Russia was never going to risk being shut out of that port area, that was for certain...so they got their win...Now IF/When Ukraine restores order in their country they can move in the direction they choose...a win for them...Was America's revolution bloodless when we freed ourselves from your country's clutches? 


I think it is crass of you to try to stifle debate, because deaths have occurred if that is the barometer for ending discussion then very few political events like this could be talked about.


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

I’m curious what the end solution is going to be for Ukraine… is the final solution that there is an East Ukraine and a West Ukraine?  That would be less of a win for Ukraine for sure, but is that the best way anyway?  It appears a lot of the Eastern Ukrainians truly do feel close to Russia and obviously most of the Western Ukrainians detest Russia’s influence.  Why force these two groups to live together if it is to mean they start killing each other? It appears to be a legitimate issue.  Can/will they get along as a whole, or is a civil/proxy war going to wind up happening?   What reasonable solutions are out there?  I don’t see purging otherwise law-abiding citizens based on ideology as being reasonable at this point.  If the USA is bringing in NGO's in Ukraine they are making the situation worse, imo. 


Fathertime!