What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[justme100]

Fathertime,

You forgot to answer the question "How much time have you spent in Ukraine and/or Crimea?"

I live in Crimea for 30 years and I can say that everything you say is stupid nonsence. Having totally washed brain you seem unable even to notice evident facts.I wonder how it can be for a man of your age. Usually even brainless ones manage to master thinking and analysing.  Anyway, in general it doesn't matter what the USA goverment thinks about this, so for sure it evel less matter what calmisile thinks about this You can keep on barking loud, it doesn't change anything)

[Chelseaboy]

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatsenyuk.told the interim cabinet today in remarks broadcast live.

"Attempts at military conflict in Ukraine will lead to a military conflict in Europe.

The World has not yet forgotten World War 2,but Russia already wants to start World War 3 ".

Of course the pro-Russian posters on here know better,so is there any way of referring the Ukrainian government to this forum,so you can enlighten the Prime Minister with your superior knowledge and allay his fears ?

I'm sure they'll be particularly intrigued with fathertime's win/win for Ukraine analysis.

[justme100]

The World has not yet forgotten World War 2,but Russia already wants to start World War 3 ".

Of course the pro-Russian posters on here know better,so is there any way of referring the Ukrainian government to this forum,so you can enlighten the Prime Minister with your superior knowledge and allay his fears ?

Don't worry for mr. Yacenuk, he was already enlighted this week, so he knows perfectly well what to do and what to say. Occupying president chair, Mr. Brennan showed perfectly well who is in real power in Ukraine now

[Larry1]

An explosion near the southern Ukrainian city of Odessa has injured seven people, a news report said Friday.

The local news source Vzglyad of Odessa reported that a grenade thrown at a pro-government checkpoint outside the city had injured six Euromaidan activists and a police officer...

The head of police in the region announced this week that pro-Kiev activists would be accepted into special units that would guard checkpoints like the one attacked Friday.

Odessa, a largely Russian-speaking city on the Black Sea with a population of about 1 million, has been the site of increasing protests against the Ukrainian government in Kiev

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/498922.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+themoscowtimes%2Fnews+%28The+Moscow+Times+News%29

[fathertime]

Fathertime,

You forgot to answer the question "How much time have you spent in Ukraine and/or Crimea?"

Hey Calmissile,


1.  I asked you a couple questions too....and you did answer either of them.


2.  Of course nobody is obligated to answer questions.

-- I can see you are generally clueless. --he survived bigger fools than you.Now you make this insulting attempt to provoke--

I don't think LFU's opinion is 'clueless' or he is a fool.  I do think that you are not fond of a dissenting opinion though...  I, and perhaps a few others don't feel what is happening is as clean as you do.  The responses certain members are pushing for will lead to disastrous results and US involvement which most of the US populous is against. [size=78%] [/size]
Fathertime! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Hey Calmissile,


1.  I asked you a couple questions too....and you did answer either of them.


2.  Of course nobody is obligated to answer questions.

I don't think LFU's opinion is 'clueless' or he is a fool.  I do think that you are not fond of a dissenting opinion though...  I, and perhaps a few others don't feel what is happening is as clean as you do.  The responses certain members are pushing for will lead to disastrous results and US involvement which most of the US populous is against.
Fathertime!

FT, it just goes to show who is clueless or not.  You got guys that visit once in awhile and then you have people that actually lived there.  The guys who visit are acting like experts and telling those that lived there that they don't have a clue. 


Even after living there I wouldn't see myself as an expert.  It's people like Bo that I listen to when she talks about Ukraine.  Her not posting is a pretty big loss for this forum, imo.


It's actually quite funny seeing how worked up these guys get over someone's opinion and how they try and put others down when they don't agree. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

I live in Crimea for 30 years and I can say that everything you say is stupid nonsence. Having totally washed brain you seem unable even to notice evident facts.I wonder how it can be for a man of your age. Usually even brainless ones manage to master thinking and analysing.  Anyway, in general it doesn't matter what the USA goverment thinks about this, so for sure it evel less matter what calmisile thinks about this You can keep on barking loud, it doesn't change anything)

justme, you obviously don't know half as much as guys like Jay.  Jayh visited several times and has even driven a car. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

I do not know what your interest,involvement,experience in/about Ukraine  is-- but from many posts on this topic-- AND PREVIOUSLY-- I can see you are generally clueless. Now you trot out an attempt to insult Calmissile-- he has long ago been attacked on forums by many  and sundry --he survived bigger fools than you.Now you make this insulting attempt to provoke-- and what is worse-- it is in a thread on a very serious topic.You are one of the few that tries to make threads about themselves- for what purpose? Who knows and who cares.
The guy you are attempting to attack has made many trips to Ukraine-- immerses himself in studying the current situation as he learns more each day.
From your posts and a few others--it is clear that your understanding is thin-- and the specific flaw I see in many-- stuck in an earlier point in time.Anyone can have an opinion--but repeating it over and over is a serious waste of forum space.The basis of how the opinion is formed also happens to be relevant.

Many trips, eh?  Wow, I am floored by his expertise.  Immerses himself, eh?  Like marrying a woman who can't speak English.  You all got me and obviously are experts.   



You are overly dramatic in the whole thread. heck the whole forum.  If you want to talk about forum waste we can discuss you and your posts for starters.

[BillyB]

 I've been to the FSU many times, married someone who was born there and who communicates with people currently living there everyday. Does my knowledge of issues make me more right? Does it really matter? We have people posting here living in the FSU that can't agree on things. Truth is, just as what happened in Crimea, Ukraine's future on whether they exist or is annexed, will be decided by people not living in Ukraine.

[GQBlues]

...
Even after living there I wouldn't see myself as an expert.  It's people like Bo that I listen to when she talks about Ukraine.  Her not posting is a pretty big loss for this forum, imo.

It's actually quite funny seeing how worked up these guys get over someone's opinion and how they try and put others down when they don't agree.

Aw, c'mon...

How can Boethius possibly know more than these sex-touring old farts? Many of these geezers have powers they don't even need to understand the languages spoken there to know every facet of their culture and society...especially their women.

[Belvis]

Many of these geezers have powers they don't even need to understand the languages spoken there to know every facet of their culture and society...especially their women.

I wander what is easier to reach, understand FSU women or know every facet of their culture and society. The former task seems for me to be more ambitious, so the latter  could be just a first step to nail down  the first one.

[missAmeno]

Check your info before you post not to look so silly.
http://aluse.net/медаль-за-возвращение-крыма-оказал.html
The same concerns the other links in your second post.
Try to watch videostreams from those places, then you will know the real info )

You do realize you are just wasting your own time?
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C_%C2%AB%D0%97%D0%B0_%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%89%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D0%9A%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%BC%D0%B0%C2%BB
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3328246-v-rossyy-uchredyly-medal-za-vozvraschenye-kryma
http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/news/2014/03/25/n_6037281.shtml
http://www.pravda.ru/news/districts/south/crimea/25-03-2014/1201682-davayza-0/
http://rbctv.rbc.ru/archive/main_news/text/562949990952377.shtml
http://sammler.ru/index.php?showtopic=142324
http://www.ruslenta.com/index.php/production/23-zavozvrasheniekrima
http://kashin.guru/2014/03/25/secret/

[missAmeno]

Today's news doesn't look any better than yesterday's...

U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html  (can someone confirm this?)

Russian citizens will be fingerprinted for Schengen visas beginning from January 2015
http://www.interfax.com/newsinf.asp?id=500586

While Ukrainian military have been ordered to destroy without warning any armed units, if they cross the border of Ukraine
http://freejournal.biz/article3902/index.html

In meantime circus on the border gets more and more ridiculous. Russian soldiers have been playing dressing up games
(perhaps it is part of their extensive training these days): decorated themselves with peacekeepers logos and attempted
to cross Ukrainian order in Russian armored vehicles painted in UN peacekeepers colors.
http://tsn.ua/politika/na-luganschini-komunisti-sprobuvali-propustiti-rosiysku-armiyu-v-ukrayinu-347051.html

[GQBlues]

Today's news doesn't look any better than yesterday's...

U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html  (can someone confirm this?)...

Well, JayH likely knows more about this as he's on top of these things....I'm sure he'll come up with an article to cut/paste here.

As for me (what do I know), well, 4 things I saw on the video right away.

1. The train is Union Pacific Railroad system
2. The bridge looks like First Street bridge in downtown LA



3. It is heading east. Likely heading towards 29 Palms marine base.
4. There's a blue sign (hardly legible) where you can barely read 'Los Angeles River' and a figure of a crane (35 seconds into the video).



So, unless these M1A1 tanks departed from Universal Studios last Monday heading to the eastern board, crosses the Atlantic ocean by UPS, across Europe to Poland and unto Ukraine, I think Russia have nothing to worry about.

But let's wait until what the old geezers think about this.

[Larry1]

U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html  (can someone confirm this?)

A quick search failed to corroborate this. 

The Obama administration has removed all operational combat tanks from Europe and key strike aircraft, limiting the options for a show of force to bolster eastern NATO allies as Russia contemplates invading Ukraine...

The Pentagon also could send a team of non-combatants into Ukraine to assess the threat posed by Russian troops, armor and fighter aircraft massing near its border, Mr. Coffey said.
“There really aren’t any military options,” said James Russell, an instructor at the Naval Postgraduate School in Monterey, Calif...

“For the first time in 70 years, there’s not a single U.S. tank on European soil that can be used for combat operations,” he said, adding that the Pentagon moved a few tanks back to the Continent for training purposes earlier this year.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/16/removal-of-military-gear-limits-options-for-us-nat/?page=all

[fathertime]

I don't think the USA is bringing our tanks over into Ukraine...that would be ridiculous...not to mention a huge escalation....


I think we would rather do things that really don't count for much...like the 650 troops we recently sent to a few of the nato allies...That just looks like a token effort..


Fathetime! 

[BillyB]

U.S. urgently dispatching tanks to Europe
http://freejournal.biz/article3906/index.html  (can someone confirm this?)

I read about this yesterday from the website below but it's all speculation so it's not worth reporting.

http://turnerradionetwork.com/news/449-pat


Video one shows freshly painted M1A1 tanks on a train. Could be that America sold them to another country. In times like these military sales go up. American soldiers would not be using the M1A1 tanks to spearhead a battle. M1A1 tanks can be over 20 years old. Our best fighting units will be using the M1A2 tanks which will soon be replaced by the M1A3. Also, America rarely sells our best technology to other countries. In conclusion, I can believe those tanks on a train are heading to a ship and leaving America but American soldiers will not be using them.


Second video shows Bradley fighting vehicles with missing turrets and Hemtt refueling tankers which have fresh paint. Another case of equipment to be sold?


Third video is a train with equipment from North Carolina which is on the east coast. Some of America's finest, rangers, airborne, special forces, and delta force are based in Ft. Bragg, North Carolina but I doubt Obama has sent our best units eastern Europe at this time. A good portion of the equipment on that train are stuff engineer units would use and their job would be to support armor and infantry units. With the mixed camouflage colors for fighting in different situations, the vehicles are coming from different units. Could be another case of America selling more old equipment.


The fourth video is a trainload of mixed armored vehicles with older paint. When I was stationed on the east coast, we'd load our equipment to do training in Arkansas and Ft. Irwin, California which is the army National training Center in the Mojave desert. That train is travelling through a desert and the equipment on it could be for our own training exercises.

I think we would rather do things that really don't count for much...like the 650 troops we recently sent to a few of the nato allies...That just looks like a token effort..

Our NATO allies publicly announce the strong commitment America has for it's allies but behind closed doors, they think a few hundred troops is a weak showing which reflects on Obama. Obama visited Europe over a week ago. If he were smart, he'd tell those NATO allies if you want more support from America, buy American. Although I'm all for supporting Ukraine with our military, I'm disappointed many of our NATO countries buy German and French hardware and expect us to do the bulk of the work when it comes to security.


In other news Obama promised more sanctions that are going to cost Russia within days if they don't stop meddling in Ukraine's affairs. We all know how tough "costs" are.

[missAmeno]

I don't think the USA is bringing our tanks over into Ukraine...that would be ridiculous...not to mention a huge escalation....

Fathetime!

No body saying anything about supplying Ukraine. In article stated:

It is reported that the start of operations to transport troops to Europe U.S. gave on Monday,
with the objective to strengthen the European members of NATO. In other channels also  reported about
the transfer of aviation reserves to the European continent.

I am able to find on news more info about aviation but unable to confirm from more reliable sources if
tanks and military vehicles shown in videos really heading to Europe.

[BillyB]

unable to confirm from more reliable sources if
tanks and military vehicles shown in videos really heading to Europe.

Don't spend too much time looking for evidence if heavy armor equipment is headed to Europe. There are some pro Ukrainian journalists that's trying too hard to look for and report any serious support from America. There is none period. There's even less support from Europe. Before Obama commits heavy armor and American troops, he would send small arms to help Ukraine defend themselves which he hasn't done.


Don't expect Obama to make any more moves past a few more sanctions, and shifting a few hundred American troops to eastern European NATO countries to stop them from begging us for help. America does not have enough forces near Ukraine to stop or discourage a Russian invasion. Lots of citizens would have to die, like in Syria, before Obama commits to arming them. Chances are if Russia goes in, it would be too late to react. They plan to dominate, not drag a war on for years.


In other news Russian fighter jets have entered Ukrainian airspace multiple times. Russia is probably doing this in response to Obama's threat of sanctions, testing Ukrainian's radar systems and readiness, or probably wanting a jet to get shot down so they have an excuse that Ukraine attacked Russia first. All it takes is one incident to start a war.

[tfcrew]

 

27 April 2014 Last updated at 08:07 ET   
 Ukraine crisis: Pro-Russian gunmen show seized monitors  The European monitors said they had not been mistreated   Continue reading the main story 
                       Pro-Russian gunmen in eastern Ukraine have shown seized European military observers to the media, amid attempts to secure their immediate release.
One of the observers presented in the city of Sloviansk said that none of the group had been harmed.
A team from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation is hoping to begin negotiations with the militia.
The gunmen continue to occupy official buildings in a dozen eastern cities, defying the government in Kiev.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27177666

[missAmeno]

Pro-Russian gunmen show seized monitors

OSCE inspectors look not bad. Just separatist forgot to show 5 Ukrainian guys that were kidnapped together with OSCE inspectors. Haven't told even if they are alive or not.

Another 3 Ukrainian officers that also were kidnapped for sure do not look as good as OSCE inspectors.



But at least people know now why life of Ukrainians suddenly doesn't cost anything anymore
http://www.globalresearch.ca/beneath-the-ukraine-crisis-shale-gas/5379228

[southernX]

[quote  ] FT Despite you being a non-resident of the USA, you haven’t seen me condemn you for posting links that demand US action.  Should I be sensitive and insist that you worry about your own country’s involvement and not make demands on the USA?  I’d rather just allow you to voice your opinion, while I voice mine.  [/quote]

FT , im hoping your opinion like JUST ME,s is not in line with the majoritys ,

you seem to be reluctant to grasp the US along with others , sign a memorandum of understanding with ukraine when it handed over its nuclear arsenal ,  whichever way people wish to spin it , most people of good moral values understood that meant something , hence the common view of onlookers that the US has an obligation to uphold in ukraine , at present it is slowly moving in that direction ,

ask yourself this question , why would ukraine give up it nuclear arsenal if it did not honeslty trust the budapest signatories to honour their commitment

for people like my family ,, miss A muzh etc we have family there , they are among your win /win human participants you keep talking about ,
understand quite clearly it is not a win/win  not for the vast majority in ukraine

while some may spin it otherwise this is one mans [putins ] long range clever strategic orchestration of events to suit his own aims ,

he isnt finnished yet , while politicians postulate and talk , etc etc , this is moving into a full scale stealth takeover on the ground in ukraine , invasion , yes , it is exactly that

proof ?? its there , plenty of it , 

SX

[Faux Pas]

 Klitschko gives an interview on the events.

Language? We have to support Russian language? Sorry, in East Ukraine, only 54 percent of schools are Ukrainian speaking. Every parent has the right to choose which school they send their children to. In Crimea there are 650 schools, just seven of them are Ukrainian-speaking. And people say we are threatening the speaking of Russian? It's just propaganda. It's not true.

Right now the people who lost power -- the [Ukrainian] politicians -- are trying to use propaganda to try to divide the country. No one in Ukraine who speaks Russian is under threat or is unable to speak Russian in any part of the country. Equally, no one Ukrainian-speaking has a problem speaking Ukrainian in any part of the county.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/04/27/what_is_happening_in_ukraine_is_dangerous_for_russia_vitali_klitschko

[Gator]

But at least people know now why life of Ukrainians suddenly doesn't cost anything anymore
http://www.globalresearch.ca/beneath-the-ukraine-crisis-shale-gas/5379228

The shale formation in the east Ukraine is the larger of the two formations.  It underlies the exact territory  being contested by pro-Russian separatists.   

The shale gas in Ukraine is promising yet still unproven, hence the development contracts  with Shell and Chevron.  The shale could replace the gas that Ukraine now imports from Russia.  It is not a huge reserve that could alter the big picture for Europe's energy imports. 

For sure Moscow does not want these formations developed.  One reason is that it would reduce Russia's exports of gas.  A bigger reason is that if Ukrainian shale is developed it likely will demonstrate that the environmental impacts are manageable.   This could prompt other European countries to develop their shale formations, and that would eliminate Europe's need for any Russian gas.
 

Also, keep in mind that a large majority of Russia's total energy export revenues derive from oil, not gas.   The shale gas is important but surely would not be an economic  reason for Russia to seize Eastern Ukraine.

[BillyB]

Obama has added new sanctions on a few Russian people and companies and admitted he's not sure they're going to work. Duh, of course they're not going to work. The value of east Ukraine is worth the loss resulting from a few sanctions.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/04/28/obama-says-us-will-impose-new-sanctions-on-russian-individuals-companies/


I was looking for some info about Ukraine's military and learned they have the second largest in Europe behind Russia's. Their military is larger than any NATO member's military except America's but most of their military is in reserve and not combat ready from being old and out of shape. I also suspect many of those reserves have not shown up for work if they are pro Russian.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_military_and_paramilitary_personnel


I was surprise to learn America's military personnel numbered 2,291,910 which is the 9th largest military in the world. Many of the bad players such as North Korea and Iran has personnel in their military than America's. America does rank 2nd in active personnel which is really what counts since troops are fresh trained and youthful which is the time men are physically at their best.


Russia 3,250,000 personnel which is the 7th largest in the world.

Ukraine 1,214,900 but only 130,000 are active duty. The reserves will be out of shape and have poor gear if they're called up.


Here are the top 5 NATO countries total military personnel excluding America.


Turkey 1,087,930

Poland 663,000

Greece 461,600

France 413,469

UK  387,570


I thought Germany, Spain and Italy would've made the top 5 but it doesn't seem that way. Many NATO countries are weak to handle a Russian invasion alone but as a collective group and with America, it discourages any country from invading.