What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Then you should know that the building was accidentally set fire by the pro Russians on the fourth floor and nobody locked them inside. You will also have seen these were the same people firing live rounds down into an angry mob and the same group that ambushed and fired shots into the demonstration.

If by accident you mean guys on the ground throwing Molotov cocktails at the building windows, then, yeah, by accident.  It shows in the video you posted.   The same people set the tents on fire.


I highly doubt multiple fires where accidentally started in different parts of the building at the same time.

Everyone was from Odessa? You sure about that? No Russians, or hired football hooligans from Kharkiv, or possibly any people from Transnistria at the events?

How was this information gathered?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Hold your conviction justme. You are far more on the money than your detractors  this is a US regime change action. The deaths and violence happening now is the next stage forward by the US to escalate and provoke Putin to cross the border. Just as the war in the former Yugoslavia . Theres is that undeniable similarity in this current crisis as that one. Google Bosnians crimes against Serbs and you'll understand now how these things work.

Don't Ming my fellow Americans. They're products of our silly media.

Always remember that Ukrainians are just as much victims here as ethnics Russians in Ukraine

It's pretty sad to watch.  People have no problem with illegal activities when it comes to something they agree with.  Now, when something happens illegally they don't agree with, they are all hot and bothered and the pointy finger comes out blaming.

[JayH]

My country is in rage after Odessa massacre. Would you so kind to shut up for now.

Why bother  posting when you are consistently doing nothing more than repeating Russian propaganda?
Quoting
"How the fire started is under investigation as well as who instigated the violence. Authorities reported that 15 of the dead were Russian citizens and another five killed were from Moldova's Kremlin-backed breakaway region of Transnistria."
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/pro-ukrainian-volunteers-track-injured-and-detained-in-odesa-fear-prosecution-by-pro-russian-activists-346107.html

The reality that the pro-Rus  apologists will not accept despite overwhelming evidence that it is Putin and Russia responsible for what is happening in Ukraine-- NOT some home grown desire to be part of Russia.

[lordtiberius]

The reality that the pro-Rus [Putin scum] apologists will not accept despite overwhelming evidence that it is Putin and Russia responsible for what is happening in Ukraine-- NOT some home grown desire to be part of Russia.

 

It's pretty sad to watch.  People have no problem with illegal activities when it comes to something they agree with.  Now, when something happens illegally they don't agree with, they are all hot and bothered and the pointy finger comes out blaming.

For the Odessa burn victim mourners:

[JayH]

It's interesting the photo justme and LT later posted were of women making Molotov cocktails. I seen the video of Molotov cocktails being thrown against the building and causing fires.

If you bothered with   2 seconds research you would not only see video of Molotov cocktails being thrown by both sides-- it is also clear you have not watched video--or read the reports of what took place.

The imported pro-Rus "protesters" had no business being there in the first place-- and it was THEY that attacked pro-Ukrainians--including shooting dead a number of them.
There is no support in Ukraine for pro-Rus--without Putins paid hirelings none of this violence would be happening-- Ukrainians are sick of it and want to be left to control there own destiny-- not have it dictated to them by Putin.

[JayH]

It's pretty sad to watch.  People have no problem with illegal activities when it comes to something they agree with.  Now, when something happens illegally they don't agree with, they are all hot and bothered and the pointy finger comes out blaming.

Between you and GQ  -- and the other pro-Rus apologists all you are doing is making yopurselves look totally ridiculous .On the fringe of any sense of normality and deluded to a ridiculous extent.
Let's hear a few of you condemn Russia's complicity in creating the Ukrainian situation and invading another country.

[JayH]

Ukraine says Russian envoy's role shows Kremlin in charge of separatists

While Moscow hails him for being an efficient mediator, Kyiv insists that Lukin sent the order to militiamen in Sloviansk from their Russian bosses.

Ukraine’s Security Service (SBU) released a transcript of an intercepted telephone conversation between Lukin and Igor Strelkov, head of the pro-Russian self-defense of Sloviansk. According to the SBU, Strelkov’s real name is Igor Girkin, a Russian national and colonel of Russian Military Intelligence.

“I’m in Donetsk right now, in good company… You do sort of have a general idea about the task that I’ve been given, don’t you?” Lukin said.

“Yes, I know, I’ve been warned… I have no objections for one simple reason. All this has been already discussed with me,” Strelkov answered.

According to the conversation, Lukin said that he was traveling to Sloviansk with the secretary general of the Council of Europe to be in Donetsk for a joint operation. “I had the instructions to provide assistance to you and not the European partners,” Strelkov replied to him.
http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/ukraine-says-russian-envoys-role-shows-kremlin-in-charge-of-separatists-346140.html

[Chelseaboy]

So,the truth will out..despite the best efforts of the pro Russian/anti west fantasists on here.

Let's see them try and squirm out of the photo showing the pro-Russian aiming his gun...his henchmen standing behind him

Pro-Russian terrorists went to Odessa to cause death..and it has back-fired on them..no wonder Russia is in a rage 

Guess what ? If your troops go into Ukraine be prepared for a lot more rage as  your troops come back in body bags.Ukraine isn't Georgia,so you can't bully them in the same way.

The fact remains Russia has stolen another countries land,is fermenting violence in other parts of the same country..and proves the saying "There is no honour among thieves".

Putlers defenders on here  can bleat as much as they like ...they're just making themselves look deluded...and more ridiculous as events unfold.

[lordtiberius]

Putlers defenders on here  can bleat as much as they like ...they're just making themselves look deluded.

Immoral bastards, Pro-Putin scum

[fathertime]

The reality that the pro-Rus  apologists will not accept despite overwhelming evidence that it is Putin and Russia responsible for what is happening in Ukraine-- NOT some home grown desire to be part of Russia.

Hey Jay, I dont agree with a couple items here.
1. It appears to me that there are a lot of regular people involved in these uprisings...probably a lot more that are in support but to frightened to enter.
2. I dont agree with you asserting the goal of the protests is to become part of Russia.  I believe the goal is to transform Ukraine into a confederation.

What I see going on is propaganda from both sides. I don't believe the U.S. or Russia is without some culpability.  That said, as a citizen and U.S. taxpayer, I don't think we should enter in this conflict. Not every battle is ours.  Based on what I've seen/read and our recent history it is not hard to believe we instigated this situation.
fathertime!

[fathertime]

FatherTime, of things I did say you haven't bothered to refute that you are pro-Putin shill and that Pyatt-Nuland are rubes.

I am sure everything is our fault: AIDS, tornadoes, and flat tires despite the evidence.

I found no reason to address what you wrote. What you fail to realize is that labels and name calling don't constitute an argument and often are not worth much more than a chuckle or eye roll
Fathertime!

[lordtiberius]

I found no reason to address what you wrote. What you fail to realize is that labels and name calling don't constitute an argument and often are not worth much more than a chuckle or eye roll
Fathertime!

What is there to argue about?  You won't listen to reason or argument.  You won't consider the other side.  There are aspects of this I might agree with you, but with you what's the point?

Russia will always be a saint to you.  You married it.  Nothing I can do to change that.  No matter how many bodies are presented before you.  That is your guy.  You say you aren't religious but . . . .hey whatever, YOLO, right?

[LiveFromUkraine]

Between you and GQ  -- and the other pro-Rus apologists all you are doing is making yopurselves look totally ridiculous .On the fringe of any sense of normality and deluded to a ridiculous extent.
Let's hear a few of you condemn Russia's complicity in creating the Ukrainian situation and invading another country.

Thanks man.  I don't think you know how much of a compliment it is to not be included in the same group as you and some of the others on this forum.  It gives me happy tingles.

You seem to be an expert on looking ridiculous.  I like to check out the other board to see some of the comments from Bo.   What I did also see is some guy with the same name saying the same things to people who don't agree with you.


 Shouting at people on different boards is pretty silly but not surprising from a guy like you.


As for condemning Russia, I have already posted my views on what Russia has done and don't feel any obligation to say it over and over again just to make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

[JayH]

Hey Jay, I dont agree with a couple items here.
1. It appears to me that there are a lot of regular people involved in these uprisings...probably a lot more that are in support but to frightened to enter.
2. I dont agree with you asserting the goal of the protests is to become part of Russia.  I believe the goal is to transform Ukraine into a confederation.

What I see going on is propaganda from both sides. I don't believe the U.S. or Russia is without some culpability.  That said, as a citizen and U.S. taxpayer, I don't think we should enter in this conflict. Not every battle is ours.  Based on what I've seen/read and our recent history it is not hard to believe we instigated this situation.
fathertime!

The future of Ukraine is not-was not- and will not be for Russia to decide. It is an independent country and Russia has no business invading it- or even attempting to influence it-let alone actively sending paid provocateurs etc
Only a very small % of Ukrainians want Russia there--and even if that was so--it is an independent country who should have been left to decide which direction it would take.After all--there is an election pending-- and it is exactly that election that  Putin did not want to see the pro-Rus candidates wiped off the floor.
Last--what has happened there has very little to do with the US or US ambitions--it is truly ridiculous to keep pushing that lineThe US has NOT instigated this situation.Even in saying that you are discrediting an extremely popular uprising to rid Ukraine of corruption..Putin's Russia and it's behaviour has now guaranteed greater interest-- but in the context of assisting the Ukrainian people to self determination of it's future and not one imposed by Russia.

[CanadaMan]

The fact remains Russia ... ,is fermenting violence in other parts of the same country..

Sandro will love this one. 

[alex330]

If by accident you mean guys on the ground throwing Molotov cocktails at the building windows, then, yeah, by accident.  It shows in the video you posted.   The same people set the tents on fire.


I highly doubt multiple fires where accidentally started in different parts of the building at the same time.

How was this information gathered?

It is documented. The fire started on the fourth floor as shown in the video and according to preliminary reports. After rounds are fired down on the mob the building (front door and lower floors) was burned further. The photos you and Belvis refer to occurred after the crowd was shot at (for the second time). Mob mentality takes over at that point.

http://dumskaya.net/news/gschs-prichinoj-pogara-v-dome-profsoyuzov-mogli--035329/

The soccer hooligans were bused in from Kharkiv along with a number of armed foreigners from other regions. There are pictures online and the police are now confirming it with those detained. There have been small provocations over the last several months in Odessa with foreigners.

http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/

[LiveFromUkraine]

It is documented. The fire started on the fourth floor as shown in the video and according to preliminary reports. After rounds are fired down on the mob the building (front door and lower floors) was burned further. The photos you and Belvis refer to occurred after the crowd was shot at (for the second time). Mob mentality takes over at that point.

http://dumskaya.net/news/gschs-prichinoj-pogara-v-dome-profsoyuzov-mogli--035329/

Hey Alex, I wasn't talking about the photo Belvis posted.  I was talking about the video you linked too.  It was clear that that people were throwing objects at the windows.  That is why you see the camera go from the street following what was thrown to that window that showed fire.  Also, the video showed multiple fires in different areas of the building. 

The soccer hooligans were bused in from Kharkiv along with a number of armed foreigners from other regions. There are pictures online and the police are now confirming it with those detained. There have been small provocations over the last several months in Odessa with foreigners.

http://dumskaya.net/news/miliciya-podtverdila-chto-sredi-zadergannyh-vo-v-035330/

Thanks for the link. 


I'm trying to figure out the misinformation from the real stuff.  It sounds like Kiev activists came into Odessa and from my understanding they were the ones who started the tent and building fires.  Now we have soccer hooligans and trained Russian nationals with guns.   I saw the video of the guy with what looked like an automatic shooting into public areas. 


This is just crazy and I hate seeing a place I called home trashed and people dying.


Side note: I remember watching a video on those types of soccer fans.  I think it was based in Poland.  They looked more like gangs than sports fans. 

[alex330]

I'm trying to figure out the misinformation from the real stuff.  It sounds like Kiev activists came into Odessa and from my understanding they were the ones who started the tent and building fires.  Now we have soccer hooligans and trained Russian nationals with guns.   I saw the video of the guy with what looked like an automatic shooting into public areas. 

Yes, supposedly there were paid Right Sector members from Kiev assisting the pro Ukraine rally. Both sides had their local soccer teams hooligans. We all know how messy that can be by itself. The pro Russians had outside help from armed men both from Russia and Transnistria. There have been several smaller events involving foreigners like the grenade attack, beatings, etc.

 The pro Russians started the event by ambushing the rally and firing shots into the crowd from a side street and rooftops. Several local men were killed and the crowd went berserk, breaking past the police lines to chase down the outsiders. Part of the crowd then moved to the trade building location and burned the tents to evict the pro Russians. More gunfire from inside the building into the crowd and the fire begins.

[JayH]

Yes, supposedly there were paid Right Sector members from Kiev assisting the pro Ukraine rally. Both sides had their local soccer teams hooligans. We all know how messy that can be by itself. The pro Russians had outside help from armed men both from Russia and Transnistria. There have been several smaller events involving foreigners like the grenade attack, beatings, etc.

 The pro Russians started the event by ambushing the rally and firing shots into the crowd from a side street and rooftops. Several local men were killed and the crowd went berserk, breaking past the police lines to chase down the outsiders. Part of the crowd then moved to the trade building location and burned the tents to evict the pro Russians. More gunfire from inside the building into the crowd and the fire begins.

Alex ( & others) --be careful about attributing too much blame on the "Right Sector:"  activists--they make an easy target to exaggerate the intent of rallies.
While it is true that it was the "right sector" activists that put the steel in Maidan ( and also took the brunt of many attacks)-they also put the discipline in Maidan that saw some sense of law and order in the aftermath.
Additionally-- all over Ukraine they have sought to encourage moderation at rallies in the face of tremendous provocation-in line with the general theme not to give Putin any excuses.
As at Maidan-- large numbers were ordinary Ukrainians reacting to something they do not want--ie Russian rule. As at Maidan--once again we see guns being used to kill ordinary protesters on the pro-Ukraine side ( 5 dead as I write).
If you bother to read the links ( forum mods prevent me from including translated versions) you will see that in this case--the pro-Rus participants attacked the pro-Ukraine rally-- the outraged Ukrainians then drove those pro-Rus back to the trade union building .
The fact is  that the pro-Ukraine  people helped save many lives from that building-you read that anywhere yet?

So  if these pro-Rus supporters are so peaceful--why are they using violence towards the pro-Ukraine rally? That is a pattern repeated all over Ukraine in the last few weeks . Why have they often been armed and used those guns? the answers are clear enough.
The deniers on the forums seek to rationalise the pro-Rus and Russian provocations--the fact is none of them are wanted in Ukraine.Ukrainians want them to disappear and let Ukrainians decide their future peacefully-- that is an overwhelming sentiment of over 90% of Ukraine.
Without Putin urging them on,discredited oligarchs paying for them-there would be no significent pro-Rus movement.

[Maxx2]

Patrick Buchanan just wrote this today:

A Wall Street Journal/NBC Poll reveals that while only 19 percent of Americans want this country more active in world affairs, 47 percent want it to become less active. This confirms a Pew poll where 53 percent of Americans said the United States “should mind its own business internationally.”

It seems Ron Paul's views are starting to take over.

[fathertime]

The future of Ukraine is not-was not- and will not be for Russia to decide. It is an independent country and Russia has no business invading it- or even attempting to influence it-let alone actively sending paid provocateurs etc
Only a very small % of Ukrainians want Russia there--and even if that was so--it is an independent country who should have been left to decide which direction it would take.After all--there is an election pending-- and it is exactly that election that  Putin did not want to see the pro-Rus candidates wiped off the floor.
Last--what has happened there has very little to do with the US or US ambitions--it is truly ridiculous to keep pushing that lineThe US has NOT instigated this situation.Even in saying that you are discrediting an extremely popular uprising to rid Ukraine of corruption..Putin's Russia and it's behaviour has now guaranteed greater interest-- but in the context of assisting the Ukrainian people to self determination of it's future and not one imposed by Russia.

I think if you were to substitute USA for RUssia in the highlighted parts of your post it would be just as accurate.


I believe it is ridiculous that you are denying the USA has it's fingerprints all over what is happening.  You can call it a  'line' but I, and many others believe that to be true based on the evidence out there, Nuland/5billion among other things.  There are plenty of more deadly battles going on around the world, but our govt. has chosen to focus on this one, I believe as GQblues has pointed out numerous times, it pertains to commercial/business interests. 


  It appears that there is potential for a lot of civil battles and death in the streets and I believe the USA has helped set the scene.  I have no doubt that Russia has been getting involved as well.  I feel they have much more reason to then the USA ever did.  Our citizenry doesn't want us interfering and spending our tax dollars in Ukraine.     
Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Alex ( & others) --be careful about attributing too much blame on the "Right Sector:"  activists--they make an easy target to exaggerate the intent of rallies.
While it is true that it was the "right sector" activists that put the steel in Maidan ( and also took the brunt of many attacks)-they also put the discipline in Maidan that saw some sense of law and order in the aftermath.
 

To me the highlighted part of what you said, sounds like an attempt to whitewash or downplay what might otherwise be truthful comments.
I've never really bought into the 'nazi' part of the argument from either side, nevertheless attempting to tell somebody else what to say or not say doesn't seem very helpful.


Fathertime!   

[lonedrake]

I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences. Not so hopeful now

If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?

[fathertime]

I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences. Not so hopeful now

If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?

You must be some sort of fool  if you think the way this is developing is a win-win. 

I felt the potential was there, but it may not go that way. I think it would have been better had the elections been sooner, as it doesn't appear any leader really speaks for Ukraine at this time.  That may still be the case after the election, but being in limbo at this time is a real problem.   


Fathertime!   

[JayH]

I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences. Not so hopeful now

If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?

After Maidan  I am sure that is what most thought and wanted. The polling still shows substantial support for that--even in the far most eastern parts of Ukraine.
If Ukrainians had been allowed to define their future without the overt aggression of Putin's Russia I am sure it could have happened. As an example-- the coalition government formed after Maidan has worked relatively well  in trying to get the country on the tracks again-- but reality is that the last thing Putin wanted on his doorstep was a successful democracy.