What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[BillyB]

I was hopeful that Ukrainians could come together and overcome their differences.

That's what the election is for. It would've been best for Russia and the West to cooperate and send monitors to the election to make sure the election is fair for Ukrainians and for the international community so there's no dispute. I think Obama would agree to that but Putin is ruining the upcoming election trying to get the east Ukrainians to start a civil war.


With Russia sending in more arms to angry people, you are going to see more blood. Did anybody expect different?

If this is a "win-win" I wonder what a "win-lose" or "lose-lose" situation will look like?

Obama is in a lose-lose situation. The pro Ukrainians are upset he's not doing enough and the pro Russians are upset he's doing too much. The Americans who don't want him to do anything are upset with him and the Americans who want him to do more are upset with him. Russia is upset with Obama. Obama is losing in so many ways right now. An American president has the power to do many things but the bottom line is he needs to get results and this thing is going to escalate instead of ending peacefully.

[JayH]

To me the highlighted part of what you said, sounds like an attempt to whitewash or downplay what might otherwise be truthful comments.
I've never really bought into the 'nazi' part of the argument from either side, nevertheless attempting to tell somebody else what to say or not say doesn't seem very helpful.


Fathertime!

The reference made relates to the way the Russians have sought to portray the "Right Sector" activists. In Moscow these are the people branded "Nazis" -- a position promoted repetitively thru Russian media.You can see how effective it was even on this forum--where Russian speakers have repeated that quite often. They have been painted as out of control nazi killers of Russian speaking people -- which is simply another one of Putin's lies.
A closer description would be a group believing in Ukrainian Nationalism--ie seeing Ukraine as Ukraine and not some annexe of Russia. they  were a key part in the head on fight to rid the country of corruption and the corrupt influences.That idea has widespread agreement amongst Ukrainians now-- the Russian invasion and meddling in internal Ukrainian matters has seen most Ukrainians now believing in self determination.Russia has sought to create an " us" or "them"situation out of it.That was definitely not how Ukrainians thought about it back at the start of the year.

[lonedrake]

If Ukrainians had been allowed to define their future without the overt aggression of Putin's Russia I am sure it could have happened. As an example-- the coalition government formed after Maidan has worked relatively well  in trying to get the country on the tracks again-- but reality is that the last thing Putin wanted on his doorstep was a successful democracy.

 I tend to agree...however the divide between the east and west is real. It has been there for years.  I see to many pro-russians in many of the videos who are from Ukraine.

but being in limbo at this time is a real problem.   

So we can count on you to drop the "win-win" from your opinion   Thank you!

[krimster2]

When I was tired my mother carried me.
She said, "Don't be afraid." But I was only tired.
Where we went there is no more Odessa.
The water there is deeper than the world
And I was tired and fell in in my sleep
And the water drank me. That is what I think.

So now the blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
the ceremony of innocence is drowned
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last
Slouches towards Odessa to be born?

[BillyB]

the divide between the east and west is real. It has been there for years. 

Most if not all countries have a divide between citizens, including America. We'd riot against each other and oust our government if America ever get half as inept and corrupt as Ukraine's government. What's going on in Ukraine shouldn't surprise anyone.

[lordtiberius]

It seems Ron Paul's views are starting to take over. [/size]

Just because rapists are raping your neighbor outside and attempting to rape your mother in the house doesn't mean that capping the rapists inside your home makes you pro-rape.  We don't have a commander in chief.  The commander in chief is not fit to serve.  We have a broken economy, a worn out military & a demoralized people.  Those are the conditions by which it makes agreement with Ron Paul possible doesn't say much for Ron Paul.

I think if you were to substitute USA for RUssia in the highlighted parts of your post it would be just as accurate.


I believe it is ridiculous that you are denying the USA has it's fingerprints all over what is happening.  You can call it a  'line' but I, and many others believe that to be true based on the evidence out there, Nuland/5billion among other things.  There are plenty of more deadly battles going on around the world, but our govt. has chosen to focus on this one, I believe as GQblues has pointed out numerous times, it pertains to commercial/business interests. 


  It appears that there is potential for a lot of civil battles and death in the streets and I believe the USA has helped set the scene.  I have no doubt that Russia has been getting involved as well.  I feel they have much more reason to then the USA ever did.

And Russia pumped 20 Bn pay off to Yanuk, 2 months ago where as the 5bn was over a period of 20 years.  Of course no one would accuse of you of maintaining some perspective.  All this from a tapped phone from the people who according to Snowden never spy on anyone



Does anyone with a straight face tell me that these people are in charge of Ukraine



& effectively managing this crisis:



& giving the Ukrainians everything they need to face Putin:



But don't let evidence stop you from believing what every it is you believe . . .

  Our citizenry doesn't want us interfering and spending our tax dollars in Ukraine.     

Really?  You don't understand America.  This guy does:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/bill_oreilly_on_ukraine_reverse_military_cuts_approve_keystone_xl.html

Don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth but he does have the pulse of the nation.

It would've been best for Russia and the West to cooperate

Honestly not a wise sentiment here as even you must concede that Fathertime's bestie Vladimir Vladimirovich has no interest in cooperating nor should we trust such cooperation.

With Russia sending in more arms to angry people, you are going to see more blood. Did anybody expect different?

Father time, what a shock!

the bottom line is he needs to get results

Not exactly his strong suits unless you want those results to be not good, then he's awesome at that!

[steveboy]

I think it's bad enough that we have fighting going on in Ukraine right now. The last thing we need is more fighting in this forum.

Gentlemen have you forgotten that the reason you came here in the first place was to find love with a FSU woman?

Make love, not war.

Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b*** especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries. lol or seldom visit.

I will be uploading a newer version of my site end of next week available in German/italian/English/French and Russian I could do with some genuine feedback I hope it will be far superior to anything else out there and of course it is totally FREE for all forum members

[Doll]

Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b*** especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries.

Exactly my thought every time I log in this forum and see the title of this thread.
Russianwomendiscussion about war between USA and Russia.

[Faux Pas]

Exactly my thought every time I log in this forum and see the title of this thread.
Russianwomendiscussion about war between USA and Russia.

Doll, you seem to have been strangely silent on this issue. What is your take on the events in Ukraine? 

[Doll]

What I REALLY think I am not going to write here)))
What I CAN say is it is beyond my understanding how it is possible between two closest nations- Russians and Ukrainians.
As for USA and this problem then this is what my husband (born American ) said," It is NONE of American business at all"
Once again- he is a born American and very sensible.

[BillyB]

Yes It gets rather boring after a while listening to the same b***

Every time you come to this forum, you participate in the same boring sh!t. Addicting isn't it? That your problem, not ours. People have family over there. Some have gf's and others are simply in communication stages with ladies but it affects most people reading this forum, especially if the guy's lady is from Ukraine or Russia. As long as there are problems over there, we will be talking about it so either refrain from reading or get used to it.

especially from armchair experts who do not even live in any of these countries. lol or seldom visit.

Each time you come here, you leave an insult. Same stuff, different day. You do understand the future of Ukraine depends on support from people who don't live there? Since you live there, you must be the expert and got it all figured out. Tell us when and how this crisis will end?

[fathertime]

Just because rapists are raping your neighbor outside and attempting to rape your mother in the house doesn't mean that capping the rapists inside your home makes you pro-rape.  We don't have a commander in chief.  The commander in chief is not fit to serve.  We have a broken economy, a worn out military & a demoralized people.  Those are the conditions by which it makes agreement with Ron Paul possible doesn't say much for Ron Paul.

And Russia pumped 20 Bn pay off to Yanuk, 2 months ago where as the 5bn was over a period of 20 years.  Of course no one would accuse of you of maintaining some perspective.  All this from a tapped phone from the people who according to Snowden never spy on anyone



Does anyone with a straight face tell me that these people are in charge of Ukraine



& effectively managing this crisis:



& giving the Ukrainians everything they need to face Putin:



But don't let evidence stop you from believing what every it is you believe . . .

Really?  You don't understand America.  This guy does:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2014/03/04/bill_oreilly_on_ukraine_reverse_military_cuts_approve_keystone_xl.html

Don't believe everything that comes out of his mouth but he does have the pulse of the nation.



Honestly not a wise sentiment here as even you must concede that Fathertime's bestie Vladimir Vladimirovich has no interest in cooperating nor should we trust such cooperation.

Father time, what a shock!


Not exactly his strong suits unless you want those results to be not good, then he's awesome at that!

Thanks for all the mentions, it is superb to know that there is a lot of distance between what you think and what I think.  There are no specifics here to address though, just silly analogies and photos....just more eye rolls.




Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

So we can count on you to drop the "win-win" from your opinion   Thank you!

For the moment, but it could reappear if/when Ukraine brings somebody to the negotiating table with the real clout and ability to negotiate. 

Obama is in a lose-lose situation. The pro Ukrainians are upset he's not doing enough and the pro Russians are upset he's doing too much. The Americans who don't want him to do anything are upset with him and the Americans who want him to do more are upset with him. Russia is upset with Obama. Obama is losing in so many ways right now. An American president has the power to do many things but the bottom line is he needs to get results and this thing is going to escalate instead of ending peacefully.

I believe this is correct Billyb.  I don't blame Obama TOO much, at this point regardless of which fork in the road he takes he is going to be heavily criticized.  The people would flee from him further if he were to get us more involved in this far flung conflict.  I don't want to see heavy sanctions either myself (as it will hurt us too), but there has to be a compromise somewhere so if that is where he takes it, I can live with that.   It is not like we don't have serious stuff to focus on here.  I'd like to see billions more spent on  huge water projects and things of the like, rather than trying to micromanage politics in Ukraine...

Fathertime!   

[Gator]

....but reality is that the last thing Putin wanted on his doorstep was a successful democracy.

Agree.  Putin wants a weak and corrupt Ukraine.   I do not know if Putin's policies have made Ukraine this way, or whether Ukraine did it to themselves. 

Ukraine was given its independence 20 years ago.  20 years is a long time.  Instead of progressing, the country went backwards over that time.  For sure Russia played a part in those 20 years, yet Ukraine had the opportunity to make some progress.  Its elected leadership failed, again and again. 

So maybe the pro-Russian separatists have no faith in any form of Ukrainian government.  They want the same bailout given to Crimea rather than years of austerity of a pro-Western tilt. 

[Faux Pas]

What I REALLY think I am not going to write here)))
What I CAN say is it is beyond my understanding how it is possible between two closest nations- Russians and Ukrainians.
As for USA and this problem then this is what my husband (born American ) said," It is NONE of American business at all"
Once again- he is a born American and very sensible.

As you wish  Too bad though, I would have like to hear it. I agree with your hubby but unfortunately the American government and foreign governments want America to be involved everywhere.

[lordtiberius]

Thanks for all the mentions, it is superb to know that there is a lot of distance between what you think and what I think.  There are no specifics here to address though, just silly analogies and photos....just more eye rolls.

The same can be said of you.  You call those who disagree with you war mongers because they want the Ukrainians to be able to defend themselves.  You just want Russia to commit aggression.  You dismiss my pictures & arguments, but you have no arguments or facts yourself.  We have been down this road.  We have argued on another thread. I responded to your every point and you quit.  Now you want to ridicule as it is the only option you have left to justify yourself.

1) How much money do you estimate Russia is pumping into Ukraine?  And the US-EU-NATO combined?

2)  How many troops Russia has in Ukraine?  And the US-EU-NATO combined?

3)  How many pipelines does Russia have that run through Ukraine?  And the US-EU-NATO combined?

4) True or False question, I know you are not that smart or diligent, the US has a trade deficit with Ukraine?

Bonus questions:

A) and what about Russia?

B) the EU?

C) ballpark, how much trade does the US and Ukraine have?

D) And Russia?

[BillyB]

Putin wants a weak and corrupt Ukraine. 
 

It will reflect poorly on Putin's legacy that he lost Ukraine. It will also make Putin look bad in front of his citizens if Ukraine adopts a Western style economy which eventually could be as successful as those in Poland and the Baltics where citizens earn more income than the average Russian.

I do not know if Putin's policies have made Ukraine this way, or whether Ukraine did it to themselves. 

No country has ever become successful doing things alone. They need to do business with other nations to succeed long term. Those nations that moved away from Russia are doing much MUCH better than those such as Moldova and Ukraine who stayed under Russia's influence. West Germany and Japan recovered very well after WWII under the guidance of the West. East Germany lagged far behind in the same period.


Ukraine shares in some of the blame allowing themselves to remain under Russia's influence so long but we have to remember, there are a lot of pro Russians there compared to pro Russians in the Baltics and Poland so Ukraine has a much tougher road to travel in moving West.


Joe Biden has some rough words for Ukrainian lawmakers when he spoke to them. He wasn't afraid to talk to them about the level of corruption in their system. I hope the money our administration is sending them to rebuild their country has monitors to make sure it gets used wisely instead of going into some people's pockets.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-vogl/kiev-ukraine-joe-biden-talks-_b_5241784.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592

[lordtiberius]

There is a good article from Simon Shuster of Time magazine taking a sympathetic view of the police.
http://twitter.com/shustry

http://time.com/81475/ukrainian-policemen-stand-by-as-pro-russian-separatists-seize-control/

The freedom lovers and freedom haters may enjoy it.

[fathertime]

The same can be said of you.  You call those who disagree with you war mongers because they want the Ukrainians to be able to defend themselves.  You just want Russia to commit aggression.  You dismiss my pictures & arguments, but you have no arguments or facts yourself.  We have been down this road.  We have argued on another thread. I responded to your every point and you quit.  Now you want to ridicule as it is the only option you have left to justify yourself.

1) How much money do you estimate Russia is pumping into Ukraine?  And the US-EU-NATO combined?

2)  How many troops Russia has in Ukraine?  And the US-EU-NATO combined?

3)  How many pipelines does Russia have that run through Ukraine?  And the US-EU-NATO combined?

4) True or False question, I know you are not that smart or diligent, the US has a trade deficit with Ukraine?

Bonus questions:

A) and what about Russia?

B) the EU?

C) ballpark, how much trade does the US and Ukraine have?

D) And Russia?

 I disagree with most of what you are saying and I don’t count some of your ‘responses’ as responses…I believe you are way too interested in us getting involved in armed conflict and I believe that has distorted your train of thought...I don’t care to entertain your silliness because you have already proven to be perfectly willing to distort whatever is said or disfigure the position of others. There are other posters who don’t do that, and I’d rather exchange points of view with what I see as rational people. 
   When you take a position I am happy to counter the positions you take, if I don’t agree… and it doesn’t really matter to me that you take it personally or commence label time…if you feel ‘ridiculed’ it is your own fault…you are free to focus on me and distort the positions I take…when I feel like it I’ll point this out, other times I’ll just let it stand because it is so obvious I won’t feel the need to address it at all.   If there ever comes a point where I feel you are making points fairly I’ll participate, meanwhile no thanks.


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

 I disagree with most of what you are saying and I don’t count some of your ‘responses’ as responses…I believe you are way too interested in us getting involved in armed conflict and I believe that has distorted your train of thought...I don’t care to entertain your silliness because you have already proven to be perfectly willing to distort whatever is said or disfigure the position of others. There are other posters who don’t do that, and I’d rather exchange points of view with what I see as rational people. 
   When you take a position I am happy to counter the positions you take, if I don’t agree… and it doesn’t really matter to me that you take it personally or commence label time…if you feel ‘ridiculed’ it is your own fault…you are free to focus on me and distort the positions I take…when I feel like it I’ll point this out, other times I’ll just let it stand because it is so obvious I won’t feel the need to address it at all.   If there ever comes a point where I feel you are making points fairly I’ll participate, meanwhile no thanks.


Fathertime!

How many US troops (DoD ID card holders) do you guess are in Ukraine right now?

[Gator]

RWD MEMBERS IN UKRAINE - IS THIS TRUE?

CNN reports in Donetsk only "a few hundred are involved in political agitation."

Other than the insurgents taking control of regional government administration building, life is normal.   "....up-market fashion stores are busy; the leaders of the Ukrainian football league, Shakhtar Donetsk, play home games as scheduled; cafes are full in the spring sunshine; the airport is open and functioning normally."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/04/29/world/europe/ukraine-lister-small-numbers/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

If this is indeed the case, it is good.  The May 25 election will presumably take place without much interference. 

[Doll]

 

  You do understand the future of Ukraine depends on support from people who don't live there? 

Since when?

[BillyB]

Since when?

Since the pro Russian's needed the backing of Russia and the pro Ukrainians need the backing of the West. Smart Ukrainian leadership understands they can't survive without outside help. Do you feel pro Russians or pro Ukrainians aren't getting any help at this time?

[Doll]

Since the pro Russian's needed the backing of Russia and the pro Ukrainians need the backing of the West. Smart Ukrainian leadership understands they can't survive without outside help. Do you feel pro Russians or pro Ukrainians aren't getting any help at this time?

Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?

[BillyB]

Just for you in a p-l-a-i-n English- domestic problems are domestic problems of a SOUVEREIN state (AND ONLY), so let it resolve this problem itself.
Got it?

I'll forward your thoughts to Putin.