What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[The Natural]

Sir, see this sentense of your highlited?
That's why I didn't post in this thread.
Sick of brainwashed people

I understand you Doll, all too well. Put on ignore LiveFromUkraine suggest. Yes, but then one would have to put a whole lot of misguided men here on ignore. Have you seen the Movies "Aliens"? They're like that. Can't be reasoned With, they are unable to feel shame and sympathy for the victims of their neo-nazi heroes. Better to just make comments from time to time when you have nothing else to do or for personal Entertainment.

[Maxx2]

Beast- who?
Would leave- where to?
 

The beast is Putin according to LordT and you are responsible for him because people like you voted for him. This then makes you unqualified to be an American citizen so you must leave the America and go back to Russia. I think you will be given enough time to pack but only your clothes. All other things you have were as a result of living in the "land of the free" and must be left behind for good Americans who agree with LordT and BillyB. I thought the embassy staff taught this to you at that interview when you were getting your visa?

[LiveFromUkraine]

What about the US and the EU? Did you note some Americans and Germans, Brits or Italians burnt in the BBQ? How about on the other government buildings? Maybe in the Russian tanks? You're pissing and moaning about folks sucking on Western media like a crack pipe yet, that is exactly what you are doing on the Putin propaganda machine.

I like you LFU. Usually you make a hellava lot of sense. Yet, once in a great while you're brain dead, like now. Why is it that because Putin wants to shit all over Ukraine that the US or the EU has to be at fault? You and several others seem to have to self defecate. That is a sickness friend. Perhaps, Putin wishes to decimate Ukraine and it has nothing to do the West?

haha  Well, I have been trying to learn Spanish so maybe that part of my brain has been severely damaged.


Anyway, I was talking about what started all of this nonsense.  Not so much about Odessa.  When talking about violence, no one side has a monopoly on violent activities. 


Didn't Kiev protesters take over government buildings?  Are you saying the West wasn't involved in the uprising that resulted in a new government?  If I voted for the current government I would be seriously pissed off at that point and I don't doubt many Ukrainians were as well judging from what has happened since.

This is the stuff I have been talking about.  The idea that people can do this and get away with it will give others the reasoning to do the same in other cities. 


Ron Paul even acknowledged the west involvement.

He adds that the IMF has dangled $17 billion in front of the Kiev government if it can rid eastern Ukrainian cities of “Russian supporters.” These kinds of measures, Paul said, explain “more aggressive activity by the Western Ukrainians to try to conquer these cities” and show that Western powers do not have the Ukrainian people’s best interests at heart.

http://rt.com/usa/156512-ron-paul-ukraine-war/


I think you got things backward.  Just because some of us are saying the US and EU were to blame doesn't mean we think Russia isn't to blame.  Ukraine became a battle ground just like we have seen in the past.  I posted a link to an article discussing how Carter started funding an anti-government group in Afghanistan that lured the Soviet Union into their own "Vietnam".  Carter previously stated he funded the group because of Soviet involvement but later the truth came out that he started funding 6 months prior to Soviet involvement.  This is the back handed bullshit I can't stand.

I see the same thing happening here.  It is hardly self defecating to see these actions and say it isn't right.

I have already stated many times that I don't agree with what Russia is doing. The west poked a bear and now Ukraine has to deal with it.  Hardly fair, if the US and EU is going to get involved, they should take it all the way by going to war.

Otherwise we should stay completely out.


I don't think Putin wants to decimate Ukraine . I do think he wants to show the west he can't be pushed around and will tear apart Ukraine in order to do it.  Is Russia the bully or is the US the bully?   To be honest, for me, it's hard to say. 

My line of thinking, Putin is drawing a line in the sand here.

It may look like we are taking sides but most of the people here agree that Russia isn't doing he right thing but a few of us believe that the US and EU screwed Ukraine royally.  That is the disagreements you are seeing and the minute we say "Wait a minute", we are called Putinists.


But here we are arguing about who has it worst, who is more violent and who started it all.  Odessa was my home for over a year, most of the people that I have met and spent time would say they are Russian.  It doesn't mean they want Russia to rule over them but it does mean they have strong ties to Russia.  Reading some of the posts here you would think all Ukrainians are rejoiced over the new government and any hatred is merely Russian antagonist.  Reality is, when the new government was put into place, it took the voting voice away from a lot of people and I would bet many are pissed off and rightly so.

[fathertime]

What about the US and the EU? Did you note some Americans and Germans, Brits or Italians burnt in the BBQ? How about on the other government buildings? Maybe in the Russian tanks? You're pissing and moaning about folks sucking on Western media like a crack pipe yet, that is exactly what you are doing on the Putin propaganda machine.

I like you LFU. Usually you make a hellava lot of sense. Yet, once in a great while you're brain dead, like now. Why is it that because Putin wants to shit all over Ukraine that the US or the EU has to be at fault? You and several others seem to have to self defecate. That is a sickness friend. Perhaps, Putin wishes to decimate Ukraine and it has nothing to do the West?

This post is a load of hoooey or defecation!  You chastise LFU for what you say is, sucking on Putin propaganda.  Why?  Because he believes the USA is helped create this mess. You DON"T see him repeating every other Russian theory out there like it is ALL true.  There is quite a bit of evidence that we have helped create what is going on behind the scenes.    Your evidence that we were not involved is:  No Americans were burned in the govt. building or occupying Russian tanks...that is weak and not evidence at all.    If you feel LFU or others shouldn't state their case, then provide the overwhelming evidence that we are just innocent bystanders.  There is plenty of signs that we are involved too deeply.  I wish we were on the sidelines, but it seem pretty clear that we weren't. 


You have provided an alternate theory which is that Putin wants to decimate Ukraine. You have stated this before.  That is a theory unless you can prove it, time will tell if it comes to fruition, but for the moment, I see tampering from both 'superpowers' and I live in one of the countries and want us to get the hell outta the business of other countries like Ukraine. 
 
Fathertime! 

[Doll]

The beast is Putin according to LordT and you are responsible for him because people like you voted for him. This then makes you unqualified to be an American citizen so you must leave the America and go back to Russia. I think you will be given enough time to pack but only your clothes. All other things you have were as a result of living in the "land of the free" and must be left behind for good Americans who agree with LordT and BillyB. I thought the embassy staff taught this to you at that interview when you were getting your visa?

I will leave my wardrobe to Billy's wife. Just let me take my broom.

[GQBlues]

...Didn't Kiev protesters take over government buildings?  Are you saying the West wasn't involved in the uprising that resulted in a new government?  If I voted for the current government I would be seriously pissed off at that point and I don't doubt many Ukrainians were as well judging from what has happened since....

Amusing, isn't it? You have the full audio of the US's direct involvement in choosing who gets to run an illegitimate government, yet folks won't even acknowledge it like it never happened. LOL. Oh and btw, FWIW, I agree with VNuland that Klitchko was not the right one to 'lead'.

I suppose it undermines all the other dramatics. So they'll just get to it later on. Minor detail...

What's happening in Ukraine is a carbon copy of what happened in Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, Croatia, and Bosnia in the '90s. You headline the atrocities done by one side of the conflict and you earn a pass to intervene.

The US/EU have Putin exactly where they want him. The recent escalation in Odessa is by design to provoke a Russian military strike. It'll likely happen a few more times. If Putin advances into Ukraine, then he's demonize as a marauder attacking a helpless country like Ukraine, the new 'Butcher of the Black Sea' - and could very well trigger regional war, in the least - multi-nation at worst. It isn't difficult to understand that Russia simply can't afford a prolonged war.

If Putin doesn't act despite the escalation of violence against ethnic-Russians in Ukraine, then he/Russia is automatically labeled 'weak', which is completely counter to what Putin aspired for Russia and thereby discredited.

So he's screwed right now either way. So one only need to ask a simple question into all these, how exactly do any of this crisis benefit Putin/Russia?

[fathertime]

It appears the Pro Russian people of Ukraine are gaining a lot of ground....


I saw/read that 1000's stormed the jail in Odessa and got the other pro russian's released....


The new york times(credible?) is reporting that the Pro Russian's are indeed Ukrainians not russians like some people keep repeating here.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/04/world/europe/behind-the-masks-in-ukraine-many-faces-of-rebellion.html?_r=0


in addition to this...the LA TIMES *credible?* has reported that the pro russians now control just about all of Donetsk.
http://www.latimes.com/world/europe/la-fg-wn-ukraine-separatists-donetsk-20140504,0,7658585.story#axzz30nxGoeem


it seems to me that there are an awful lot of angry Ukrainians that are rebelling against what they probably feel is an illegal govt.  Heck even the local citizenry greeted the tanks with  anger as they supported the separatists. That is unless Russia has literally sent 10's of 1000's into Ukraine to pretend to be Ukrainians..btw where did all those Ukrainian tanks and troops go...a few days ago the leadership said they were going to keep fighting...did the troops desert again? . Perhaps people think that the LA TIMES and NY Times are both lying...and covering for Russia.






The two sides need to get the table quick and create the federation or something like that, or they can just fight it out for years....and we can stay the Christ out of it!!
Fathertime!   

[Faux Pas]

haha  Well, I have been trying to learn Spanish so maybe that part of my brain has been severely damaged.


Anyway, I was talking about what started all of this nonsense.  Not so much about Odessa.  When talking about violence, no one side has a monopoly on violent activities. 


Didn't Kiev protesters take over government buildings?  Are you saying the West wasn't involved in the uprising that resulted in a new government?  If I voted for the current government I would be seriously pissed off at that point and I don't doubt many Ukrainians were as well judging from what has happened since.

This is the stuff I have been talking about.  The idea that people can do this and get away with it will give others the reasoning to do the same in other cities. 


Ron Paul even acknowledged the west involvement.
http://rt.com/usa/156512-ron-paul-ukraine-war/

What started the violence is Putin. One doesn't need to look any farther than him. His reason for doing so is anyone's guess. He started it and he can still stop it if he so chooses. To date, he hasn't. Connect the dots that may or may not exist to Maiden if you wish or even farther back to who supported and financed the events of Maiden. Illegal government or not in Ukraine, what caused it or not doesn't give Putin the right to invade, threaten, foment and instill the fear and violence. You fail to realize what Putin actually is. He doesn't need rhyme or reason of the West to justify his actions.

Where the West failed Ukraine the most IMHO was after the Orange Revolution. It was then a Western style democracy could have taken hold, instead it was hands off and the corrupt Russian style government continued the status quo. I am a fan of Ron Paul, I am an isolationist politically. I agree with him more than not however, some country or entity will meddle where meddling can be done. Regardless of who was financing Maiden, it was Ukrainians that threw out a corrupt leader. That was democracy at work, like it, agree with it or not.

I think you got things backward.  Just because some of us are saying the US and EU were to blame doesn't mean we think Russia isn't to blame.  Ukraine became a battle ground just like we have seen in the past.  I posted a link to an article discussing how Carter started funding an anti-government group in Afghanistan that lured the Soviet Union into their own "Vietnam".  Carter previously stated he funded the group because of Soviet involvement but later the truth came out that he started funding 6 months prior to Soviet involvement.  This is the back handed bullshit I can't stand.

I see the same thing happening here.  It is hardly self defecating to see these actions and say it isn't right.

I have already stated many times that I don't agree with what Russia is doing. The west poked a bear and now Ukraine has to deal with it.  Hardly fair, if the US and EU is going to get involved, they should take it all the way by going to war.

Otherwise we should stay completely out.


I don't think Putin wants to decimate Ukraine . I do think he wants to show the west he can't be pushed around and will tear apart Ukraine in order to do it.  Is Russia the bully or is the US the bully?   To be honest, for me, it's hard to say. 

My line of thinking, Putin is drawing a line in the sand here.

Carter's Afghanistan, Iraq, the Cuban missle crisis, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Zaire or any other conflict you can cite does not apply. This is Ukraine and this is here and now. Putin has been doing the same backhanded shit that pisses you off in Ukraine since his first term as President. Were you complaining about it then? I don't like it anymore than you do but our pissing and moaning about it won't impede the powers that be from doing it. I think you guys looking to accuse the West of causing the current crisis aren't looking close enough. Look who is amassing troops, arming soldiers without insignias and more importantly, who's shooting bullets. That is who is causing the problems.

It may look like we are taking sides but most of the people here agree that Russia isn't doing he right thing but a few of us believe that the US and EU screwed Ukraine royally.  That is the disagreements you are seeing and the minute we say "Wait a minute", we are called Putinists.


But here we are arguing about who has it worst, who is more violent and who started it all.  Odessa was my home for over a year, most of the people that I have met and spent time would say they are Russian.  It doesn't mean they want Russia to rule over them but it does mean they have strong ties to Russia.  Reading some of the posts here you would think all Ukrainians are rejoiced over the new government and any hatred is merely Russian antagonist.  Reality is, when the new government was put into place, it took the voting voice away from a lot of people and I would bet many are pissed off and rightly so.

Ukraine has been royally screwed for the last 3-400 years. The Putin screwing of Ukraine didn't just start a few months ago. It has been happening for many years. IMHO, he is seeing his ability to continue that screwing slipping away. This isn't a line in the sand, this is a "land grab because I can" move. Russia isn't a super power. They have Nukes but that is the limit of it. Militarily or economically I don't think Russia ranks in the top 10. Putin's actions are destructive. He's playing chess and winning but that doesn't mean he will win the match. If at any point the West deems Ukraine as worth going to bat for, a smart Putin would give it up and go home. I fear this isn't a smart Putin. The last thing we need is a war in Europe with both sides nuke ready.

[Faux Pas]

This post is a load of hoooey or defecation!  You chastise LFU for what you say is, sucking on Putin propaganda.  Why?  Because he believes the USA is helped create this mess. You DON"T see him repeating every other Russian theory out there like it is ALL true.  There is quite a bit of evidence that we have helped create what is going on behind the scenes.    Your evidence that we were not involved is:  No Americans were burned in the govt. building or occupying Russian tanks...that is weak and not evidence at all.    If you feel LFU or others shouldn't state their case, then provide the overwhelming evidence that we are just innocent bystanders.  There is plenty of signs that we are involved too deeply.  I wish we were on the sidelines, but it seem pretty clear that we weren't. 


You have provided an alternate theory which is that Putin wants to decimate Ukraine. You have stated this before.  That is a theory unless you can prove it, time will tell if it comes to fruition, but for the moment, I see tampering from both 'superpowers' and I live in one of the countries and want us to get the hell outta the business of other countries like Ukraine. 
 
Fathertime!

The old saying "It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" comes to mind 

[fathertime]

The old saying "It's better to remain silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt" comes to mind 

That is nice that it came to mind…unfortunately you failed to exercise it….
…veiled name calling…a definite sign you lost the disagreement yet again.   

[/size]Fathertime!  [size=78%]

[LiveFromUkraine]

Amusing, isn't it? You have the full audio of the US's direct involvement in choosing who gets to run an illegitimate government, yet folks won't even acknowledge it like it never happened. LOL. Oh and btw, FWIW, I agree with VNuland that Klitchko was not the right one to 'lead'.

I suppose it undermines all the other dramatics. So they'll just get to it later on. Minor detail...

What's happening in Ukraine is a carbon copy of what happened in Kosovo, Serbia, Albania, Croatia, and Bosnia in the '90s. You headline the atrocities done by one side of the conflict and you earn a pass to intervene.

The US/EU have Putin exactly where they want him. The recent escalation in Odessa is by design to provoke a Russian military strike. It'll likely happen a few more times. If Putin advances into Ukraine, then he's demonize as a marauder attacking a helpless country like Ukraine, the new 'Butcher of the Black Sea' - and could very well trigger regional war, in the least - multi-nation at worst. It isn't difficult to understand that Russia simply can't afford a prolonged war.

If Putin doesn't act despite the escalation of violence against ethnic-Russians in Ukraine, then he/Russia is automatically labeled 'weak', which is completely counter to what Putin aspired for Russia and thereby discredited.

So he's screwed right now either way. So one only need to ask a simple question into all these, how exactly do any of this crisis benefit Putin/Russia?

Yep and good point.  Putin is screwed on this.  He really has no reason to back down.  He can take Ukraine anytime he wants and there is nothing stopping him.  It makes you wonder why he hasn't so far, eh?

[LiveFromUkraine]

What started the violence is Putin. One doesn't need to look any farther than him. His reason for doing so is anyone's guess. He started it and he can still stop it if he so chooses. To date, he hasn't. Connect the dots that may or may not exist to Maiden if you wish or even farther back to who supported and financed the events of Maiden. Illegal government or not in Ukraine, what caused it or not doesn't give Putin the right to invade, threaten, foment and instill the fear and violence. You fail to realize what Putin actually is. He doesn't need rhyme or reason of the West to justify his actions.

Violence tends to happen when trying to overthrow a government.  Putin or not. Putting your head in the sand as to the involvement from the EU/US doesn't change the fact they fostered an environment that was going to lead to violence. 


They have as much blood on their hands as Putin.

Where the West failed Ukraine the most IMHO was after the Orange Revolution. It was then a Western style democracy could have taken hold, instead it was hands off and the corrupt Russian style government continued the status quo. I am a fan of Ron Paul, I am an isolationist politically. I agree with him more than not however, some country or entity will meddle where meddling can be done. Regardless of who was financing Maiden, it was Ukrainians that threw out a corrupt leader. That was democracy at work, like it, agree with it or not.

The president was legally elected and those elections where monitored by outside resources.  What I am saying is you wouldn't see that type of thing happening in any western democracy yet you think it is "ok" for Ukraine.


I most definitely wouldn't call overthrowing a government the democratic way.  I would call it a coup.

Carter's Afghanistan, Iraq, the Cuban missle crisis, Vietnam, Nicaragua, Zaire or any other conflict you can cite does not apply. This is Ukraine and this is here and now.

It's called modus operandi and it can help us figure out what is propaganda and what is not.  If the US has a history of doing these types of actions, and there is evidence of them doing the same thing, I am not going to believe they didn't do it no matter how many time you and/or others try to say otherwise.

Putin has been doing the same backhanded shit that pisses you off in Ukraine since his first term as President. Were you complaining about it then? I don't like it anymore than you do but our pissing and moaning about it won't impede the powers that be from doing it. I think you guys looking to accuse the West of causing the current crisis aren't looking close enough. Look who is amassing troops, arming soldiers without insignias and more importantly, who's shooting bullets. That is who is causing the problems.

The last election had monitors.  We talked about this many times.  Just because you don't think he should have been elected doesn't means it was a scam.  Ukrainians aren't dumb.  They know all politicians are corrupt.  I think it is pretty easy to see why they voted for Yanukovych and not another Orange Revolution bullshitter. 


Again, not all protesters of the new government are Russian soldiers.  They are Ukrainians that got told they have to accept a new government and phuck off if you don't like it. 


I posted a link to a video of a group of Ukrainians roughing up a television producer and making him quit. After that, he popped up in a photograph of parliament fighting between them.


There are also pictures of McCain with a neo nazis who is part of the new government.  You really think it is just the Pro Russian group that is causing the problems. 


Again, with the head in the sand.   

Ukraine has been royally screwed for the last 3-400 years. The Putin screwing of Ukraine didn't just start a few months ago. It has been happening for many years. IMHO, he is seeing his ability to continue that screwing slipping away. This isn't a line in the sand, this is a "land grab because I can" move. Russia isn't a super power. They have Nukes but that is the limit of it. Militarily or economically I don't think Russia ranks in the top 10. Putin's actions are destructive. He's playing chess and winning but that doesn't mean he will win the match. If at any point the West deems Ukraine as worth going to bat for, a smart Putin would give it up and go home. I fear this isn't a smart Putin. The last thing we need is a war in Europe with both sides nuke ready.

As GQ pointed out, Putin wasn't smart.  He has now put himself into a corner and I don't see many options for him to get out.  Who knows what will happen and I fear not allowing him to come out looking good will make things quite bad. 


The best thing that could happen is figuring out a way for him to save face and allow Ukraine to get back on their feet.  I don't see a way to do that. 

[fathertime]

What started the violence is Putin. One doesn't need to look any farther than him. His reason for doing so is anyone's guess. He started it and he can still stop it if he so chooses. To date, he hasn't. Connect the dots that may or may not exist to Maiden if you wish or even farther back to who supported and financed the events of Maiden. Illegal government or not in Ukraine, what caused it or not doesn't give Putin the right to invade, threaten, foment and instill the fear and violence. You fail to realize what Putin actually is. He doesn't need rhyme or reason of the West to justify his actions.

What a silly case of circular logic and faulty reasoning.  So your big point is that the US doesn't have troops on the ground creating violence?  It is ok for a highly questionable govt. to wrest control, that Russia's international rival helped fund/plan/install.....but it is not ok for Russia to do what it can to influence things....Sounds like a double standard to me....the USA's hands don't look clean to me, and this wasn't the right part of the world to do this sort of thing. We should have stayed away and not help set the scene for the violence now occurring, while raising our hands in the air saying 'what did we do?'


All that said, I don't believe there are any innocent parties here, but I'm not going to try to hold other govts. to account when ours is just as guilty...Russia has a lot better reason to intervene in this part of the world then we do...They have a lot of crucial interests in the area including not wanting to be surrounded by more unfriendly military bases someday down the road...I feel we are just there to try to poke Russia in the eye with a stick...and put Russia in a further comprised position where they are less able to exert influence in their international interests.  I doubt they would permit that to happen. 


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

As GQ pointed out, Putin wasn't smart.  He has now put himself into a corner and I don't see many options for him to get out.  Who knows what will happen and I fear not allowing him to come out looking good will make things quite bad. 


The best thing that could happen is figuring out a way for him to save face and allow Ukraine to get back on their feet.  I don't see a way to do that.

Hey LFU,
I think there are ways for everybody to get something...it may not go down that way...but the pie is big enough....Thus far I believe Russia has asked for Ukraine to vote on a Federation where Ukraine would still be one country, with different regions having more self determination.  I think that could work, if that is truly what the people of parts E. Ukraine want. 


After Ukraine has it's election, maybe that guy who is elected can sit down, hammer out a framework, and work out a way to make a relatively fair vote happen in these regions. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me as it would be the people's choice.  At that point if Russia decided they didn't like the result they would clearly be invading an area that didn't want them and many additional people would condemn and back tough sanctions on them (and deservedly so)...I would think it is more likely the people would vote for more self-determination.   Anyway that is just one possible solution...I'm sure there are others...


Fathertime! 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Hey LFU,
I think there are ways for everybody to get something...it may not go down that way...but the pie is big enough....Thus far I believe Russia has asked for Ukraine to vote on a Federation where Ukraine would still be one country, with different regions having more self determination.  I think that could work, if that is truly what the people of parts E. Ukraine want. 


After Ukraine has it's election, maybe that guy who is elected can sit down, hammer out a framework, and work out a way to make a relatively fair vote happen in these regions. That doesn't seem unreasonable to me as it would be the people's choice.  At that point if Russia decided they didn't like the result they would clearly be invading an area that didn't want them and many additional people would condemn and back tough sanctions on them (and deservedly so)...I would think it is more likely the people would vote for more self-determination.   Anyway that is just one possible solution...I'm sure there are others...


Fathertime!

That is one of their major problems FT.  Election results don't seem to matter.  People will cry fraud if they don't agree with the result even if they are monitored.  Overthrowing elected officials when you don't like their decisions doesn't cry stability. 


You have to respect the process for it to work. 

[LiveFromUkraine]

Interesting article on the Odessa tragedy.  It was pieced together, in Russia, from youtube videos so who knows if it is accurate.


http://rt.com/news/156744-video-footage-odessa-fire/

Then the visibly smaller group of alleged anti-Kiev activists started to attack the march, apparently provoking the demonstrators. Footage then shows a smaller group men wearing red bands luring the pro-Kiev crowd into a different direction.
At some point, the police line opened up to let the men wearing red bands through and closed back up again. A video then shows a man standing behind the police lines shooting at the pro-Kiev crowd.

[lordtiberius]

The United States should not and cannot engage in combat operations in Ukraine.  Now, Ukraine may invite us (it probably already has in so many words) - but we may not be able to help them reach their goals which is independence, freedom & prosperity.  We should support them.  We should not (as Benghazi Vicky Nuland and Geoff Butterfingers Pyatt have appeared to have done) pick their leaders for them.  Ukraine is not Palestine.  They are not an unreliable cobelligerent but have demonstrated moral and physical courage in the face of a great menace.

Combat operations requires some defense of a national interest.  We do have national interests in Ukraine.  Those interests include honoring the Budapest Memorandum.  But we have abdicated that responsibility - a shame we will live with for the rest of our lives.  Absent the honor and the principle of nonproliferation, we would be wise to avoid, in the words of Neville Chamberlain on Czechslovakia:

a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war.

- Broadcast (27 September 1938), quoted in "Prime Minister on the Issues", The Times (28 September 1938

 

Secondly, we do not have a competent Commander in Chief.  We do not have a Commander or a Chief. We do not have a leader.  We have a fraud whose true character and nature has yet to reveal itself.  We do know that this Changeling did try to lead us into a war we all opposed.  Fathertime, FauxPas, even GQBlues and me agreed that war in Syria was not just wrong it was evil.  Mendeleyev, who no longer posts on this forum, defended Putin's actions justifying himself in the language of the Third Rome and the Nationalism that appeals to so many Russians here and elsewhere.  Though I WRONGLY opposed him, Mendeleyev rightly argued that the Obama Administration through its actors in the al Qaeda Rebel militias were responsible for the sarin gas bombings.  Yes, they bombed their own people.  Mendeleyev said and I didn't believe him but what he said was true.

Obama, the war in Ukraine, is not about Ukraine.  The Putinists are right.  The CIA is meddling in Ukraine.  But they overestimate the scale and the wisdom.  We like any other nation reserve the right meddle anywhere we have interests of the affairs of others smaller and weaker than us.  It is the law of nations.  It has its own morality.  Sometimes we have done well other instances not at all much.  But we are no different than other peoples.  Where we are different is who we are, the kind of values we live by and espouse.  The kind of people we are.  That Americanism, the combination of Christianity and Democracy, even if it is balderdash appeals to people all over the world as the way it should be.  And the way it should be is that we should have advised them to appoint an honest man - Klitchko is an honest man who made is his own money on his own merits and not appointed Yatseniuk, Timashenko or Poroshenko who are all corruptible.  Also a real American would not have put its weight in a National Socialist (left wing) muscle but would have bolstered legitimate institutional authorities like the police and military.  A real American would have arranged for a power sharing agreement on national unity because of a national crisis which would have included members of the party of Regions which had defectors early on that would have accepted Keivan Leadership.

So America is behind this coup.  So why are they being so stingy?  Why are they being so obtuse?  Yatseniuk asked for guns, he got MREs.  The Euromaidan heroes died because they thought the US Sixth fleet would support them.  Its still in the Aegean.  The Ukrainian people thought they would be apart of Europe, but the EU is skittery and NATO does not accept collect calls. 45 million people are saying rightly 'WTF?'

An explanation that makes any sense is that this - all of this - as ugly as this is - is not about Ukraine, but about Syria.  if you go back to Syria, you go back to Benghazi.  Before there was Benghazi, there was Extortion 17.  Extortion 17 was about avenging UBL's murder which corrupted the meaning of the Arab Spring and Obama's Cairo Speech.  Obama doesn't like Putin, but he does not want a blood war with Putin.  His interests are in the Middle East.  Re-read GQBlues posts about parallels to the Balkans.  Obama can't say what he is really doing which is laying the ground work for a Muslim caliphate.  And Erdogan is read on.  Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria.  But guess who controls Syria (and Iran)?  This isn't your grandfather's Cold War.

All the Russians talk about this war as a WWII redux, which in a sense it is.  If you follow the logic of subversion.  Subversion comes in 3 stages:

1) demoralization
2) crisis
3) normalization

Most of the Middle East and Ukraine is demoralized.  So getting people in riot mode is not that had.  Forcing a crisis (civil war or invasion) follows.  Normalization is killing off all those allies you had in fighting the Civil War or invasion so you have no political competition.  Octavius did it when he killed off Antony.  The Muslim Brotherhood tried to do that in killing off the Egyptian democrats.    The same will happen in Ukraine no matter who wins for the Nazis and the Commies were lefties.  They don't believe in power sharing.

Obama is not a real American.  He campaigned twice on fundamental transformation of America.  We have to stop him.  Like I said, we cannot stop others from raping our neighbors if we do not stop the rapist (Obama) in our own home.  That may take awhile and by that time Ukraine maybe gobbled up.

If we, the interventionists want intervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long as he holds the auspices of legitimate power will abuse that power to change the subject - even taking us to the brink of thermonuclear war.  Clinton did it.  Obama is more of a bastard than Slick Willie was or ever be.  If you, the noninterventionists want nonintervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long is weak, he cannot lead his country to war.

Where does that leave Ukraine?  Ukraine and Russia are linked.  Their origin stories are the same.  The stories of all Slavs are linked.  But Slavs of every stripe have to ask themselves who is the more ascendant power Poland or Russia because they both cannot lead the Slavic identity.  If you look at the last 100 years and see what Russia has done with leadership, you might want to re-assess.  I say that as a (not so good) Russian speaker.

Thoughts?  Insults?

[Faux Pas]

That is nice that it came to mind…unfortunately you failed to exercise it….
…veiled name calling…a definite sign you lost the disagreement yet again.   

[/size]Fathertime!  [size=78%]

 

Whatever it takes for you FT is fine with me. You and I have no disagreement. I stopped any exchange with you many pages ago after it became evident you were unable to formulate any reasoned debate. I alerted you to that little factoid at the time. My position has not changed and I see yours hasn't either.

[Maxx2]

The United States should not and cannot engage in combat operations in Ukraine.  Now, Ukraine may invite us (it probably already has in so many words) - but we may not be able to help them reach their goals which is independence, freedom & prosperity.  We should support them.  We should not (as Benghazi Vicky Nuland and Geoff Butterfingers Pyatt have appeared to have done) pick their leaders for them.  Ukraine is not Palestine.  They are not an unreliable cobelligerent but have demonstrated moral and physical courage in the face of a great menace.

Combat operations requires some defense of a national interest.  We do have national interests in Ukraine.  Those interests include honoring the Budapest Memorandum.  But we have abdicated that responsibility - a shame we will live with for the rest of our lives.  Absent the honor and the principle of nonproliferation, we would be wise to avoid, in the words of Neville Chamberlain on Czechslovakia:
 

Secondly, we do not have a competent Commander in Chief.  We do not have a Commander or a Chief. We do not have a leader.  We have a fraud whose true character and nature has yet to reveal itself.  We do know that this Changeling did try to lead us into a war we all opposed.  Fathertime, FauxPas, even GQBlues and me agreed that war in Syria was not just wrong it was evil.  Mendeleyev, who no longer posts on this forum, defended Putin's actions justifying himself in the language of the Third Rome and the Nationalism that appeals to so many Russians here and elsewhere.  Though I WRONGLY opposed him, Mendeleyev rightly argued that the Obama Administration through its actors in the al Qaeda Rebel militias were responsible for the sarin gas bombings.  Yes, they bombed their own people.  Mendeleyev said and I didn't believe him but what he said was true.

Obama, the war in Ukraine, is not about Ukraine.  The Putinists are right.  The CIA is meddling in Ukraine.  But they overestimate the scale and the wisdom.  We like any other nation reserve the right meddle anywhere we have interests of the affairs of others smaller and weaker than us.  It is the law of nations.  It has its own morality.  Sometimes we have done well other instances not at all much.  But we are no different than other peoples.  Where we are different is who we are, the kind of values we live by and espouse.  The kind of people we are.  That Americanism, the combination of Christianity and Democracy, even if it is balderdash appeals to people all over the world as the way it should be.  And the way it should be is that we should have advised them to appoint an honest man - Klitchko is an honest man who made is his own money on his own merits and not appointed Yatseniuk, Timashenko or Poroshenko who are all corruptible.  Also a real American would not have put its weight in a National Socialist (left wing) muscle but would have bolstered legitimate institutional authorities like the police and military.  A real American would have arranged for a power sharing agreement on national unity because of a national crisis which would have included members of the party of Regions which had defectors early on that would have accepted Keivan Leadership.

So America is behind this coup.  So why are they being so stingy?  Why are they being so obtuse?  Yatseniuk asked for guns, he got MREs.  The Euromaidan heroes died because they thought the US Sixth fleet would support them.  Its still in the Aegean.  The Ukrainian people thought they would be apart of Europe, but the EU is skittery and NATO does not accept collect calls. 45 million people are saying rightly 'WTF?'

An explanation that makes any sense is that this - all of this - as ugly as this is - is not about Ukraine, but about Syria.  if you go back to Syria, you go back to Benghazi.  Before there was Benghazi, there was Extortion 17.  Extortion 17 was about avenging UBL's murder which corrupted the meaning of the Arab Spring and Obama's Cairo Speech.  Obama doesn't like Putin, but he does not want a blood war with Putin.  His interests are in the Middle East.  Re-read GQBlues posts about parallels to the Balkans.  Obama can't say what he is really doing which is laying the ground work for a Muslim caliphate.  And Erdogan is read on.  Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria.  But guess who controls Syria (and Iran)?  This isn't your grandfather's Cold War.

All the Russians talk about this war as a WWII redux, which in a sense it is.  If you follow the logic of subversion.  Subversion comes in 3 stages:

1) demoralization
2) crisis
3) normalization

Most of the Middle East and Ukraine is demoralized.  So getting people in riot mode is not that had.  Forcing a crisis (civil war or invasion) follows.  Normalization is killing off all those allies you had in fighting the Civil War or invasion so you have no political competition.  Octavius did it when he killed off Antony.  The Muslim Brotherhood tried to do that in killing off the Egyptian democrats.    The same will happen in Ukraine no matter who wins for the Nazis and the Commies were lefties.  They don't believe in power sharing.

Obama is not a real American.  He campaigned twice on fundamental transformation of America.  We have to stop him.  Like I said, we cannot stop others from raping our neighbors if we do not stop the rapist (Obama) in our own home.  That may take awhile and by that time Ukraine maybe gobbled up.

If we, the interventionists want intervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long as he holds the auspices of legitimate power will abuse that power to change the subject - even taking us to the brink of thermonuclear war.  Clinton did it.  Obama is more of a bastard than Slick Willie was or ever be.  If you, the noninterventionists want nonintervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long is weak, he cannot lead his country to war.

Where does that leave Ukraine?  Ukraine and Russia are linked.  Their origin stories are the same.  The stories of all Slavs are linked.  But Slavs of every stripe have to ask themselves who is the more ascendant power Poland or Russia because they both cannot lead the Slavic identity.  If you look at the last 100 years and see what Russia has done with leadership, you might want to re-assess.  I say that as a (not so good) Russian speaker.

Thoughts?  Insults?

I am shocked that I agree with every word above.

[fathertime]

Whatever it takes for you FT is fine with me. You and I have no disagreement. I stopped any exchange with you many pages ago after it became evident you were unable to formulate any reasoned debate. I alerted you to that little factoid at the time. My position has not changed and I see yours hasn't either.

You when you are prepared to  disagree like an adult I will be ready to discuss…meanwhile I will permit you to pout in the corner because viewpoints and reasoning differ from yours. 


Fathertime!

[fathertime]

The United States should not and cannot engage in combat operations in Ukraine.  Now, Ukraine may invite us (it probably already has in so many words) - but we may not be able to help them reach their goals which is independence, freedom & prosperity.  We should support them.  We should not (as Benghazi Vicky Nuland and Geoff Butterfingers Pyatt have appeared to have done) pick their leaders for them.  Ukraine is not Palestine.  They are not an unreliable cobelligerent but have demonstrated moral and physical courage in the face of a great menace.

Combat operations requires some defense of a national interest.  We do have national interests in Ukraine.  Those interests include honoring the Budapest Memorandum.  But we have abdicated that responsibility - a shame we will live with for the rest of our lives.  Absent the honor and the principle of nonproliferation, we would be wise to avoid, in the words of Neville Chamberlain on Czechslovakia:
 

Secondly, we do not have a competent Commander in Chief.  We do not have a Commander or a Chief. We do not have a leader.  We have a fraud whose true character and nature has yet to reveal itself.  We do know that this Changeling did try to lead us into a war we all opposed.  Fathertime, FauxPas, even GQBlues and me agreed that war in Syria was not just wrong it was evil.  Mendeleyev, who no longer posts on this forum, defended Putin's actions justifying himself in the language of the Third Rome and the Nationalism that appeals to so many Russians here and elsewhere.  Though I WRONGLY opposed him, Mendeleyev rightly argued that the Obama Administration through its actors in the al Qaeda Rebel militias were responsible for the sarin gas bombings.  Yes, they bombed their own people.  Mendeleyev said and I didn't believe him but what he said was true.

Obama, the war in Ukraine, is not about Ukraine.  The Putinists are right.  The CIA is meddling in Ukraine.  But they overestimate the scale and the wisdom.  We like any other nation reserve the right meddle anywhere we have interests of the affairs of others smaller and weaker than us.  It is the law of nations.  It has its own morality.  Sometimes we have done well other instances not at all much.  But we are no different than other peoples.  Where we are different is who we are, the kind of values we live by and espouse.  The kind of people we are.  That Americanism, the combination of Christianity and Democracy, even if it is balderdash appeals to people all over the world as the way it should be.  And the way it should be is that we should have advised them to appoint an honest man - Klitchko is an honest man who made is his own money on his own merits and not appointed Yatseniuk, Timashenko or Poroshenko who are all corruptible.  Also a real American would not have put its weight in a National Socialist (left wing) muscle but would have bolstered legitimate institutional authorities like the police and military.  A real American would have arranged for a power sharing agreement on national unity because of a national crisis which would have included members of the party of Regions which had defectors early on that would have accepted Keivan Leadership.

So America is behind this coup.  So why are they being so stingy?  Why are they being so obtuse?  Yatseniuk asked for guns, he got MREs.  The Euromaidan heroes died because they thought the US Sixth fleet would support them.  Its still in the Aegean.  The Ukrainian people thought they would be apart of Europe, but the EU is skittery and NATO does not accept collect calls. 45 million people are saying rightly 'WTF?'

An explanation that makes any sense is that this - all of this - as ugly as this is - is not about Ukraine, but about Syria.  if you go back to Syria, you go back to Benghazi.  Before there was Benghazi, there was Extortion 17.  Extortion 17 was about avenging UBL's murder which corrupted the meaning of the Arab Spring and Obama's Cairo Speech.  Obama doesn't like Putin, but he does not want a blood war with Putin.  His interests are in the Middle East.  Re-read GQBlues posts about parallels to the Balkans.  Obama can't say what he is really doing which is laying the ground work for a Muslim caliphate.  And Erdogan is read on.  Ukraine is not about Ukraine, its about Syria.  But guess who controls Syria (and Iran)?  This isn't your grandfather's Cold War.

All the Russians talk about this war as a WWII redux, which in a sense it is.  If you follow the logic of subversion.  Subversion comes in 3 stages:

1) demoralization
2) crisis
3) normalization

Most of the Middle East and Ukraine is demoralized.  So getting people in riot mode is not that had.  Forcing a crisis (civil war or invasion) follows.  Normalization is killing off all those allies you had in fighting the Civil War or invasion so you have no political competition.  Octavius did it when he killed off Antony.  The Muslim Brotherhood tried to do that in killing off the Egyptian democrats.    The same will happen in Ukraine no matter who wins for the Nazis and the Commies were lefties.  They don't believe in power sharing.

Obama is not a real American.  He campaigned twice on fundamental transformation of America.  We have to stop him.  Like I said, we cannot stop others from raping our neighbors if we do not stop the rapist (Obama) in our own home.  That may take awhile and by that time Ukraine maybe gobbled up.

If we, the interventionists want intervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long as he holds the auspices of legitimate power will abuse that power to change the subject - even taking us to the brink of thermonuclear war.  Clinton did it.  Obama is more of a bastard than Slick Willie was or ever be.  If you, the noninterventionists want nonintervention, prosecute Obama because Obama as long is weak, he cannot lead his country to war.

Where does that leave Ukraine?  Ukraine and Russia are linked.  Their origin stories are the same.  The stories of all Slavs are linked.  But Slavs of every stripe have to ask themselves who is the more ascendant power Poland or Russia because they both cannot lead the Slavic identity.  If you look at the last 100 years and see what Russia has done with leadership, you might want to re-assess.  I say that as a (not so good) Russian speaker.

Thoughts?  Insults?

Well LT if we agree on a few things that is fine...the fact that you posted without misstating other people's positions or name-called is a step in the right direction, from my point of view.


Fathertime!   

[Faux Pas]

Violence tends to happen when trying to overthrow a government.  Putin or not. Putting your head in the sand as to the involvement from the EU/US doesn't change the fact they fostered an environment that was going to lead to violence. 


They have as much blood on their hands as Putin.

My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions. What has happened in Ukraine has been happening throughout the world for the last 1000 years. Russia has and continues to do the very same crimes you accuse the West of. It's not "okay" for Russia to carry out these crimes because the West allegedly, in your mind, started it.

The president was legally elected and those elections where monitored by outside resources.  What I am saying is you wouldn't see that type of thing happening in any western democracy yet you think it is "ok" for Ukraine.


I most definitely wouldn't call overthrowing a government the democratic way.  I would call it a coup.

He was elected. Fairly or not, who is to say but, that's not the point. He sold Ukraine up the river to Moscow. He was a crook, a thief and Putin's puppet, his own party wanted him out of office. The Ukrainian people/government took measures to end it. It was completed by a vote. It should also be noted it was while he was on the lamb and hiding with his master. You and numerous others here blame the West for that. You blame the West for assisting that action. Would you feel better if it wasn't the West but rather China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea?

It's called modus operandi and it can help us figure out what is propaganda and what is not.  If the US has a history of doing these types of actions, and there is evidence of them doing the same thing, I am not going to believe they didn't do it no matter how many time you and/or others try to say otherwise.



The last election had monitors.  We talked about this many times.  Just because you don't think he should have been elected doesn't means it was a scam.  Ukrainians aren't dumb.  They know all politicians are corrupt.  I think it is pretty easy to see why they voted for Yanukovych and not another Orange Revolution bullshitter. 

I didn't say they didn't do it. I'm not defending the actions of the Obama admin or their complicity in the Ukrainian situation. Let's keep that clear. If the West didn't do it, another country or countries would have. It is/was an opportunity that someone would have exploited/ taken advantage of. I don't like it, certainly don't agree with it or think it just but, it is, what it is. That is the reality. This reality was possible because of Yankovict, his thievery and serving Putin rather than Ukraine.

Again, not all protesters of the new government are Russian soldiers.  They are Ukrainians that got told they have to accept a new government and phuck off if you don't like it. 


I posted a link to a video of a group of Ukrainians roughing up a television producer and making him quit. After that, he popped up in a photograph of parliament fighting between them.


There are also pictures of McCain with a neo nazis who is part of the new government.  You really think it is just the Pro Russian group that is causing the problems. 

There are many fingerprints all over this situation but, the current bloodshed is clearly on Putin's hands IMHO. He is the catalyst of the fighting. If Putin were correct in his declarations, he would allow Ukrainians to have an unfettered election unimpeded with terror or disruption. The fact that he isn't should be an indicator to you.

As GQ pointed out, Putin wasn't smart.  He has now put himself into a corner and I don't see many options for him to get out.  Who knows what will happen and I fear not allowing him to come out looking good will make things quite bad. 


The best thing that could happen is figuring out a way for him to save face and allow Ukraine to get back on their feet.  I don't see a way to do that.

You, GQ nor I have any idea what Putin's plan is. I don't think him smart either. The damage he has inflicted thus far will be far reaching into the future of Russia as well as Ukraine. Russia's position on the world stage is diminishing daily. It won't bother Putin or his cronies personally as he's already moved his stolen billions all over the world. It will affect your average Russian. This includes my wife's family and our Russian family and friends in Russia. This is where my personal concern is mainly focused. I don't personally have a dog in the fight in Ukraine but, I am seeing the world being reshaped as a result and I do not like it one bit. There is a method to my madness. The best course of action for Putin right now, today is to pack up and go home and be happy with the change of Crimea. Anything beyond that is going to come at a very expensive price IMHO

[GQBlues]

My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions. What has happened in Ukraine has been happening throughout the world for the last 1000 years. Russia has and continues to do the very same crimes you accuse the West of. It's not "okay" for Russia to carry out these crimes because the West allegedly, in your mind, started it.


He was elected. Fairly or not, who is to say but, that's not the point. He sold Ukraine up the river to Moscow. He was a crook, a thief and Putin's puppet, his own party wanted him out of office. The Ukrainian people/government took measures to end it. It was completed by a vote. It should also be noted it was while he was on the lamb and hiding with his master. You and numerous others here blame the West for that. You blame the West for assisting that action. Would you feel better if it wasn't the West but rather China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea?
I didn't say they didn't do it. I'm not defending the actions of the Obama admin or their complicity in the Ukrainian situation. Let's keep that clear. If the West didn't do it, another country or countries would have. It is/was an opportunity that someone would have exploited/ taken advantage of. I don't like it, certainly don't agree with it or think it just but, it is, what it is. That is the reality. This reality was possible because of Yankovict, his thievery and serving Putin rather than Ukraine.

There are many fingerprints all over this situation but, the current bloodshed is clearly on Putin's hands IMHO. He is the catalyst of the fighting. If Putin were correct in his declarations, he would allow Ukrainians to have an unfettered election unimpeded with terror or disruption. The fact that he isn't should be an indicator to you.



 

You, GQ nor I have any idea what Putin's plan is. I don't think him smart either. The damage he has inflicted thus far will be far reaching into the future of Russia as well as Ukraine. Russia's position on the world stage is diminishing daily. It won't bother Putin or his cronies personally as he's already moved his stolen billions all over the world. It will affect your average Russian. This includes my wife's family and our Russian family and friends in Russia. This is where my personal concern is mainly focused. I don't personally have a dog in the fight in Ukraine but, I am seeing the world being reshaped as a result and I do not like it one bit. There is a method to my madness. The best course of action for Putin right now, today is to pack up and go home and be happy with the change of Crimea. Anything beyond that is going to come at a very expensive price IMHO

I'm not quite understanding your logic here FP. The majority of ukraine population duly elected a president observed by the international organization and openly deemed fair yet you can't accept it because of yanu's alliance to Moscow? He was elected president by majority Ukrainians. It doesn't matter if you believe he's a crook. Obama is a bigger crook but that doesn't negate his presidency now does it?

Should we keep on interfering in each country's electoral process every time we feel the elected leader n that country doesn't fit our vision of the world? Isn't this what you're critical of putin yourself?

Yanu's removal is illegal. The process of impeachment was not consummated due to failure in parliamentary protocol so they simply abandoned the process and overthrew him regardless. You cite right from wrong yet disregard having the US decide for Ukrainians on who gets to illegally lead them as non passé ?

You are also disregarding Estonia's PM phone call regarding the information about the sniper incident and how disturbing it is they not only have information this was planted to exact violence in Kiev and no one is bothering for any type of international investigation ?

You think all this justifiable due to your opinion of Putin?

[fathertime]

My head isn't in the sand here guy. I have no doubt Western entities are complicit in the destabilization of Ukraine. I also have little to no doubt of the Obama's admin complicity, too. The reasons why are pure conjecture and immaterial. Although LT's description is probably more truth than fiction. However, the blood being spilled is not by the hand of the West, it is by Putin. Stop excusing his actions.

It seems to me that you are excusing the U.S. actions by saying if it weren't us it would have been N. Korea or Saudi Arabia.   I would rather focus on the country I live in, then blame 'Putin' or another foreign country. The evidence seems to point to us, so pointing our collective crooked finger elsewhere seems to be hypocritical. It wasn't China caught on tape discussing who was going to be installed as the new leader. I continue to believe if we get outta the way and permit the process to run its course the outcome will wind up being more palatable then the alternative...although it could get to the point of no return...where no outcome is at all pleasant.

Fathertime!

[Faux Pas]

I'm not quite understanding your logic here FP. The majority of ukraine population duly elected a president observed by the international organization and openly deemed fair yet you can't accept it because of yanu's alliance to Moscow? He was elected president by majority Ukrainians. It doesn't matter if you believe he's a crook. Obama is a bigger crook but that doesn't negate his presidency now does it?

Should we keep on interfering in each country's electoral process every time we feel the elected leader n that country doesn't fit our vision of the world? Isn't this what you're critical of putin yourself?

Yanu's removal is illegal. The process of impeachment was not consummated due to failure in parliamentary protocol so they simply abandoned the process and overthrew him regardless. You cite right from wrong yet disregard having the US decide for Ukrainians on who gets to illegally lead them as non passé ?

It's not that hard. It's not for "me" to accept nor any of you. Ukraine's elected officials deemed him unfit to serve and voted him out. All in Ukraine's (or rather's Russia's own) style of democracy. Yes, I'm okay with that and it has nothing to do with my opinion of Putin or Yankovict's ties to Putin. I expect I'd be okay with an impeachment vote or a vote to remove Obama from office. They have been wiping their ass with the constitution too long already. What I think of Yanukovich has no bearing on my opinion of the legality of Ukrainian law. They voted Yanu out and they have their reasons. It wasn't done at the barrel of a gun. They were fed up with the corruption. Ukraine's parliament responding to it's constituents. The idea that Ukraine has no right to remove a president who lost favor with the population to bow down to Putin's demands IMHO, is their right. The fact that this angers Putin doesn't give him rights to invade or seize Ukraine. You were earlier arguing the Ukrainian constitutional semantics.  It is their constitution. They have a right to change it.

You've put much too much stock in a recorded phone call of Nuland. Do you honestly believe she can or had the ability to place who she deemed? I don't. She is but another clown of the Obama admin. Neither does Kerry, Biden or King Obama himself.

You are also disregarding Estonia's PM phone call regarding the information about the sniper incident and how disturbing it is they not only have information this was planted to exact violence in Kiev and no one is bothering for any type of international investigation ?

You think all this justifiable due to your opinion of Putin?

Hell no. My opinion of Putin has nothing to do with anything. The PMs phone call while likely valid is still nothing more than heresay. Just as Nuland's. It can be just as false and it can be true. I'm all for an investigation but any kind of investigation isn't going to happen until Putin exits the stage, taking his invasion with him. I suspect such an investigation would reveal far more about Yanu and Putin than the West's financing protests in Kiev.