What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?

[cc3]

Yeah? Well, expel GazProm from the US!

[cc3]

Furthermore, expel Russian foreign minister Lavrov's daughter from the US!

[JayH]

CC--the acquisition of the French ships pre-dates current issues by some time-- and no decision will be made on handing over until October.
As far as Russian owned assets go--I would seize everything that can be found-- I would stop ALL travel of Russian passport holders( and review case by case the bona fides) anywhere by Russian passport holders--ie freeze them wherever they are. Make companies and people prove they have acquired assets legitimately-- make individuals show  how they are paying for travel etc --whatever-- and how funds were acquired.
That is only a few measures that would apply real pressure to Putin and Russia and Russians-- plus confiscate anything doubtful. That will get rid of Putin very fast and make Russia see reason and start behaving like they want to be part of the world again.
         Of course-- if Russia stops sending terrorists to Ukraine-- withdraws for the Crimea and  gives it back to Ukraine and respects the agreements it has just ignored etc-- then Russia could be treated as part of the world.
       Those types of far reaching sanctions would have huge affect-- afterall-- what is the point of having a poultice of money-- and being stuck in Russia!!

[JayH]

  A few more for the  FT win/win situation-- perhaps you can explain how these "winners" are going HOME to Russia from where they came in  the  attempt to INVADE Ukraine  and  finished   as dead " winners"  !!


The bodies of the terrorists killed during the ATO in Donetsk , began to send to. Today opiznani 33 gunmen who hails from Russia. With the city morgue began to publish their relatives, according to a story TSN.Ranok. Read more: In Slavic ATO artillery destroyed another terrorist base Today the area of ​​the airport was taken to the morgue bodies of five militants. According to the regional administration since the beginning of the week, since the anti-terrorist operation has entered the active phase, the militants was at least 36. The terrorists themselves say actually losing much up larger.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/tila-zagiblih-teroristiv-pochali-vidpravlyati-do-rosiyi-352281.html


http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/tila-zagiblih-teroristiv-pochali-vidpravlyati-do-rosiyi-352281.html


The fact that Ukrainian authorities  have continued sending dead invaders  back to Russia speaks highly of their respect for life and humanity-- a pity the same cannot be said of the murderous thugs and their criminal invasion of Ukraine.

[deccie]

CC--the acquisition of the French ships pre-dates current issues by some time-- and no decision will be made on handing over until October.
As far as Russian owned assets go--I would seize everything that can be found-- I would stop ALL travel of Russian passport holders( and review case by case the bona fides) anywhere by Russian passport holders--ie freeze them wherever they are. Make companies and people prove they have acquired assets legitimately-- make individuals show  how they are paying for travel etc --whatever-- and how funds were acquired.
That is only a few measures that would apply real pressure to Putin and Russia and Russians-- plus confiscate anything doubtful. That will get rid of Putin very fast and make Russia see reason and start behaving like they want to be part of the world again.
         Of course-- if Russia stops sending terrorists to Ukraine-- withdraws for the Crimea and  gives it back to Ukraine and respects the agreements it has just ignored etc-- then Russia could be treated as part of the world.
       Those types of far reaching sanctions would have huge affect-- afterall-- what is the point of having a poultice of money-- and being stuck in Russia!!

If you truly think that then you have a very short memory indeed and little understanding of what Russians can withstand.

It would be an interesting scenario indeed to see what state the US and indeed most western countries would be in if they went through similar collapses that Russians endured in the post soviet period.

Part of the popularity of Putin right now is specifically  linked to the notion that unlike the leaders of most other countries he does not bow down and do the bidding of others. Rightly or wrongly I have little doubt that someone who tried to introduce western notions of "democracy"  here right now would be completely shredded by some here as being weak. in any event what democracy has become in the west is debateable anyway since if the choice is A or B and there is little gap between them there is no real change to the status quo. Obama as one example  employed many officials from the previous lot. Debates over trivial issues like gay marriage don't keep food on the table or mortgages paid. They  are intended distractions to keep people focusing on really important things.

[JayH]

  I will answer politely to point out the obvious-- when the oiligarchs are hurt by sanctions-- it would not be long before the pressure would be on Putin.That will, be the fastest way to get rid of him and alter Russian direction.
My memory is neither short or lacking in understanding. My interest in Russia almost certainly is a lot longer than yours-- so apare me the condacending attitude.

[lordtiberius]

Given the incompetence of the Obama administration and the Euro-dithering, provided MadVlad doesn't invade any further than the sanctions Jay outlined are in order.  Glad the Poles haven't misplaced their nuts.

[fathertime]

  A few more for the  FT win/win situation-- perhaps you can explain how these "winners" are going HOME to Russia from where they came in  the  attempt to INVADE Ukraine  and  finished   as dead " winners"  !!

 

The confident ignorance your posts exude is worth a chuckle.  Did you REALLY think that these sorts of countrywide events occur without people dying?...and you were calling Deccie ignorant? 
There will be no sweeping sanctions like you demand as the countries are not going to shoot themselves in the foot over Crimea…a place where many, if not  most are delighted to be back in the Russian fold. 
 you already predicted that V. Putin will be ousted very soon....doubtful.... You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened...  You also wanted the USA to commence bombing....Obama said absolutely not   One resulting occurrence from the Ukraine situation there are signs that countries are unifying against the USA....that is probably ok with you since you don't live in our country.   Although we could have gotten more involved in Ukraine, many already believe that we have overstepped as this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue.  There will be no isolation of Russia, they are forming new ties and will persevere through  the halfhearted sanctions we have placed. France will finish their work and fulfill there contractual obligations, as they also apparently don't equate Putin to Hitler. 
Fathertime!   

[cc3]

"-the acquisition of the French ships pre-dates current issues by some time-- and no decision will be made on handing over until October."

JayH, French stab the western alliance in the back, yet again. The decision to deliver the carriers has already been made:

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/05/13/France-to-sell-carriers-to-russia

[cc3]

"You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened... "

FT, the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine is ongoing, albeit semi-covertly, with GRU-led Chechnyan mercs and a varied assortment of Russian military-trained gangsters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/30/us-ukraine-crisis-defence-idUSKBN0EA0LN20140530

My fiancee, living in Luhansk, reports to me there are many men under 30 yo, speaking Russian accented Russian, riding the marshrutkas throughout the city, whereas, before the crisis, Russians visiting the city were middle to upper middle class in their own SUVs, in Luhansk to shop, and not riding public transit.
Yesterday, she saw something extremely distressing, an open vehicle full of foreign-looking, bearded, heavily armed men, i.e.: Chechnyans. She is trying to brave out staying in Luhansk until the end of her academic session, at the end of June. I am beseeching her to escape westward now, while she and her daughter can. This is no longer a 'game' between Putin and Kyiv. It is the beginning of a full-on terroristic campaign against the civil population of the Donbass.

[JayH]

The confident ignorance your posts exude is worth a chuckle.  Did you REALLY think that these sorts of countrywide events occur without people dying?...and you were calling Deccie ignorant? 
There will be no sweeping sanctions like you demand as the countries are not going to shoot themselves in the foot over Crimea…a place where many, if not most are delighted to be back in the Russian fold. 
 you already predicted that V. Putin will be ousted very soon....doubtful.... You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened...  You also wanted the USA to commence bombing....Obama said absolutely not   One resulting occurrence from the Ukraine situation there are signs that countries are unifying against the USA....that is probably ok with you since you don't live in our country.   Although we could have gotten more involved in Ukraine, many already believe that we have overstepped as this is a Russian/Ukrainian issue.  There will be no isolation of Russia, they are forming new ties and will persevere through  the halfhearted sanctions we have placed. France will finish their work and fulfill there contractual obligations, as they also apparently don't equate Putin to Hitler. 
Fathertime!   

Your propensity to attempt to pat yourself on the back by rewriting what was actually said on forum is comic.
You keep making unsubstantiated assertions about what Ukrainians think--what Crimeans think.It is straight out of Kremlin propaganda-essentially an invention.Perhaps you could show me where I unequivocally said Russia was going to invade ALL of Ukraine?  Or where I ever said the US should be bombing Russia?
But let us deal with the issue of your assertion that Russia has  not invaded Ukraine--leaving aside the undisputable fact that they have in the Crimea-- and let us look at mainland Ukraine.(btw--I did note your attempt to redefine what constituted an invasion-- for those that missed it-- FT defines a Russian invasion where the Kremlin has called it as such !!)
Exactly who do you think these pieces of shit killed in Ukraine and being sent back to Russia dead are?

Quoting & translated
"Cargo 200" went to a Russian mother. Ukrainian border guards will leave "Cargo 200" More than three dozen coffins with the bodies of the militants killed during the liberation of Donetsk airport is now moving in the direction of Russia - said in a story TSN.19 30 . Near the porch of Donetsk Regional State Administration in the morning there was a thirty coffins. In them - the bodies of militants, killed on Monday during a fight at the local airport. The day before, witnesses said, the men of the Russian battalion "Vostok" put all the fans of "DNR" from their busy construction administration. Some say that it is connected with looting, robbery particular store, the products of which later found in the separatists. The leader of the self-proclaimed republic to answer the question of whether he was acquainted with the victims refused. But call them volunteers, who defended the interests of the country."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html

In your ridiculous win/win comments you have sought to rationalise this Russian attempt to hijack parts of eastern Ukraine-- what we have seen is these terrorists killing,robbing,destroying Ukrainian cities-- you seem to think all that is ok. have you asked yourself why these people( Russia that is) are so hell bent on NOT allowing a vote in the area? It has been pointed out many times that the large majority( perhaps as high as 95%) of people want nothing to do with Russia.
Have you asked yourself how these Russian cretins can cross the border from Russia heavily armed--in effect waved thru from the Russian side?
Your proposition that countries are unifying against the USA is another looney comment--no basis of fact.You make numerous assertions of what I said that are incorrect--FULL STOP.

[fathertime]

Hey Retard, how much you want to bet?

You have proven to be untrustworthy and unstable so I would not receive payment…based on all your other predictions being wrong it would be easy money.   


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Your propensity to attempt to pat yourself on the back by rewriting what was actually said on forum is comic.
You keep making unsubstantiated assertions about what Ukrainians think--what Crimeans think.It is straight out of Kremlin propaganda-essentially an invention.Perhaps you could show me where I unequivocally said Russia was going to invade ALL of Ukraine?  Or where I ever said the US should be bombing Russia?
But let us deal with the issue of your assertion that Russia has  not invaded Ukraine--leaving aside the undisputable fact that they have in the Crimea-- and let us look at mainland Ukraine.(btw--I did note your attempt to redefine what constituted an invasion-- for those that missed it-- FT defines a Russian invasion where the Kremlin has called it as such !!)
Exactly who do you think these pieces of shit killed in Ukraine and being sent back to Russia dead are?

Quoting & translated
"Cargo 200" went to a Russian mother. Ukrainian border guards will leave "Cargo 200" More than three dozen coffins with the bodies of the militants killed during the liberation of Donetsk airport is now moving in the direction of Russia - said in a story TSN.19 30 . Near the porch of Donetsk Regional State Administration in the morning there was a thirty coffins. In them - the bodies of militants, killed on Monday during a fight at the local airport. The day before, witnesses said, the men of the Russian battalion "Vostok" put all the fans of "DNR" from their busy construction administration. Some say that it is connected with looting, robbery particular store, the products of which later found in the separatists. The leader of the self-proclaimed republic to answer the question of whether he was acquainted with the victims refused. But call them volunteers, who defended the interests of the country."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/truni-iz-trunami-boyovikiv-povezli-do-rosiyi-na-vantazhivkah-352436.html

In your ridiculous win/win comments you have sought to rationalise this Russian attempt to hijack parts of eastern Ukraine-- what we have seen is these terrorists killing,robbing,destroying Ukrainian cities-- you seem to think all that is ok. have you asked yourself why these people( Russia that is) are so hell bent on NOT allowing a vote in the area? It has been pointed out many times that the large majority( perhaps as high as 95%) of people want nothing to do with Russia.
Have you asked yourself how these Russian cretins can cross the border from Russia heavily armed--in effect waved thru from the Russian side?
Your proposition that countries are unifying against the USA is another looney comment--no basis of fact.You make numerous assertions of what I said that are incorrect--FULL STOP.

 I don’t believe it is a Russian invasion.  If extremists are crossing, joining the ranks of Ukrainians and helping to make trouble, that is not the same as an invasion.    After Russia invaded and took Crimea, they had a several month period where they could have invaded much of Ukraine with very little problem…during those months parts of the Ukrainian army was even abandoning their equipment and siding with people.  I don’t believe Russia intended to, or are at the moment making an effort to invade…if they were interested it would have already been done…  There will be no invasion unless the west gets too aggressive in Russia’s backyard….all indications are that will not happen, as even France is selling Russia war equipment...and the sanctions for invading Crimea have been light enough to be called a tickle.       
Your efforts to demonize everything Russian have been overboard.  I continue to believe that there are two sides to this story despite you being interested in pretending there is only one.   Soon there will be meetings between the leaders and I believe things will be worked out over time, and both sides will be able to win something from it....and you will be left scratching your head wondering who you are supposed to hate now! 


Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

"You also predicted that Russia was going to invade all of Ukraine...never happened... "

FT, the Russian invasion of eastern Ukraine is ongoing, albeit semi-covertly, with GRU-led Chechnyan mercs and a varied assortment of Russian military-trained gangsters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/05/30/us-ukraine-crisis-defence-idUSKBN0EA0LN20140530

My fiancee, living in Luhansk, reports to me there are many men under 30 yo, speaking Russian accented Russian, riding the marshrutkas throughout the city, whereas, before the crisis, Russians visiting the city were middle to upper middle class in their own SUVs, in Luhansk to shop, and not riding public transit.
Yesterday, she saw something extremely distressing, an open vehicle full of foreign-looking, bearded, heavily armed men, i.e.: Chechnyans. She is trying to brave out staying in Luhansk until the end of her academic session, at the end of June. I am beseeching her to escape westward now, while she and her daughter can. This is no longer a 'game' between Putin and Kyiv. It is the beginning of a full-on terroristic campaign against the civil population of the Donbass.

Hi CC3,


I believe what you are saying is true.  I believe there are a % of foreigners contributing to the unrest.  I am not convinced that Russia is directly responsible though.  I wouldn't doubt if they allowed people to cross as the Russian position appears to strengthen for the moment if things remain in flux within Ukraine ....it would be Ukraine's responsibility to stop people at border checkpoints that they don't want to enter. Ukraine should make it a priority to secure their border if there is enough loyalty within the army to do so.    I saw today that all the Russian troops on the border have left.


http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html


Fathertime!   

[deccie]

  I will answer politely to point out the obvious-- when the oiligarchs are hurt by sanctions-- it would not be long before the pressure would be on Putin.That will, be the fastest way to get rid of him and alter Russian direction.
My memory is neither short or lacking in understanding. My interest in Russia almost certainly is a lot longer than yours-- so apare me the condacending attitude.

You make a huge assumption there.  My interest in Russia dates back until about the age of 8 and certainly predates any notions of finding a partner here.

[deccie]

Hey Retard, how much you want to bet?

Wow, the strength and eloquence of your argument is just astounding.

You sound every bit the bully yourself that your are supposedly complaining about others.

[lordtiberius]

 I don’t believe it is a Russian invasion.  . . After Russia invaded and took Crimea,  . . . I don’t believe Russia intended…if they were interested it would have already been done…         
Your efforts to demonize everything Russian have been overboard.    . . . both sides will be able to win something from it.... 


Fathertime!

This guy is an idiot. Language omitted. Anyone who knows Jay knows he hates violence and hates hate more than people. But he has a conscience unlike Dr. Strangelove. 

[deccie]

Hi CC3,


I believe what you are saying is true.  I believe there are a % of foreigners contributing to the unrest.  I am not convinced that Russia is directly responsible though.  I wouldn't doubt if they allowed people to cross as the Russian position appears to strengthen for the moment if things remain in flux within Ukraine ....it would be Ukraine's responsibility to stop people at border checkpoints that they don't want to enter. Ukraine should make it a priority to secure their border if there is enough loyalty within the army to do so.    I saw today that all the Russian troops on the border have left.


http://screen.yahoo.com/nearly-russian-troops-ukraine-border-174605629.html


Fathertime!

What made the news here yesterday is that Chechen fighters are making their way to Ukraine.
 If it was published on the news one can assume it has official sanction and approval.

[lordtiberius]

Wow, the strength and eloquence of your argument is just astounding.

You sound every bit the bully yourself that your are supposedly complaining about others.

I'm sorry.  Does Putin have another mouthpiece? By all means proceed counselor, tell us how Putin is justified in killing his own people to save his political skin.

[deccie]

  I will answer politely to point out the obvious-- when the oiligarchs are hurt by sanctions-- it would not be long before the pressure would be on Putin.That will, be the fastest way to get rid of him and alter Russian direction.
My memory is neither short or lacking in understanding. My interest in Russia almost certainly is a lot longer than yours-- so apare me the condacending attitude.

I think you misunderstand completely what is going on in Russia right now. Those oligarchs not aligned with the leadership are being steadily separated from their assets.  That process is continuing.

[lordtiberius]

They  are NOT carriers. They are amphibious warfare vessels.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mistral-class_amphibious_assault_ship

They are helicopter carriers. Big deal . . .

[deccie]

I'm sorry.  Does Putin have another mouthpiece? By all means proceed counselor, tell us how Putin is justified in killing his own people to save his political skin.

Whatever Putin does, is that a reason you for to be a bully and insult other members here? Right this second I'm interested in YOUR behavior. Does that standard meet the TOS of this forum?

[deccie]

They are helicopter carriers. Big deal . . .

They are much, much more than helicopter carriers. A helicopter carrier  is a flat deck with a hangar.

These things can also carry up to 70 vehicles or  450 troops. They also have a flood-able well deck. Ships of a previous generation (Intrepid and Fearless) were key to the British being able to re-take the Falklands.

[deccie]

OK.

Father time, you have a champion.  There is a turd stinkier than you.

Looks like your going to keep the moderaters busy today my lad.

[fathertime]

Pick a charity turd merchant.  If $ 10 is too much for you, I understand.  Ukraine is repatriating the bodies of the Vostok Battalion.  Slavs are fighting Slavs doesn't play well in the oblasts.  Would you care to revise your statements? Monster

OK.

Father time, you have a champion.  There is a turd stinkier than you.

I got to giggle at your angry name-calling, as I know it shows your frustration and since your goal is to stifle other points of view you should be frustrated, as you will fail!     It appears that you that you have shown no honor or discipline (probably throughout your life) and your stability is questionable.  You do not represent the American point of view, you represent a very small minority, and you will not be permitted to dictate unfettered.


   As for me, I am content enough to be able to speak my piece and let others give the thoughts some consideration and then draw their own conclusions...even if they are different than the ones I've drawn.   
Fathertime!