USA blows up 2 tankers and blames Iran

[Gator]

Only 'Trampu' and his hawks thought so ...

The RoW don't agree and understand Iran - which you should - better..

I am not sure of who is RoW.  Does RoW stand for the "realm of weenies?"    

I guess these are Europeans who wanted to trade with Iran and Obama the Great Appeaser, conceding to demands just to get a signed deal. 


   

the idea was to reward Iran comiong vack into the fold and hoping the progressive majority will undermine the Iranian hawisk conservatives ..'Trampu' is f'n up all the good works of wiser players

Noble idea, reminds me of Chamberlain's   "peace for our time."  Iran had its chance to come back "into the fold."    It did not. 

BTW, when was Iran ever in the fold?  Under the Shah, whom the populace despised?

 

Oil prices are unstable - mainly because of ...'Trampu'..

Unstable?  Where ever you obtain your information, stop!

I assert oil prices were much more unstable before Trump. Let's do a litmus test.   

       - In June 2008 oil was $160/bbl, soon dropping in response to the Great Recession.
       - Under Obama prices started at $50 when he took office, rising to $130 in April 2011, and dropping briefly to $35 as Iran doubled its oil exports after the Obama nuclear deal and fracking increased. 
       -  Under Trump prices have varied in a narrow range, $50-65 even though Iran and VZ reduced production. 

Dr. Mobs, do you still consider this unstable!!!!

They fell due to falling demand expected rom China ..They've gone up because of the inveitable fal out of pressure on Iran's economy ..   This is 101 stuff...

What?  The production increases in North America (Canada and Mexico are big participants) have kept downward pressure on oil prices. 

....the USA did this to Japan in the thirties and look how THAT worked out .

Japan was such a saint in the decades before WW II., expanding aggressively in the Pacific, particularly into China.   Some remarkable similarities between 1930s Japan and today's Iran. 

Anyway, look where Japan is today after ridding itself of its militaristic and expansionist mentality. 

[SANDRO43]

Please do not bomb Iran , the world's major producer (47%) of pistachio .

[BillyB]

So far, Trump has shown remarkable restraint.   Even more remarkable is his transparency.    The hawks are not happy.

Evidently his plan is to get Iran to the negotiating table. 

Trump won't get any deal better than Obama's. Obama got them to agree to delay their nuke program and in return, they got money and were allowed to advance their ballistic missile system to deliver the nukes. Nukes aren't any good without a delivery system so making a deal that lifts sanction, gives them money, and allows their ballistic missile program to catch up to their nuke program is a win win for them.

Trump won't give them any nuclear related programs that they can advance so Iran won't deal. If Iran continues to make "mistakes" in the Strait of Hormuz, and Trump decides to launch an assault, then Trump should target their nuke facilities. Set them back 10+ years and making a deal with them isn't a priority anymore.

Trump criticized previous Presidents for not stopping N Korea's and Iran's nuke programs. His current policies will make him no better than the Presidents he criticized because his policies won't work.

[fathertime]

Noble idea, reminds me of Chamberlain's   "peace for our time."  Iran had its chance to come back "into the fold."    It did not. 

Everything that isn't bombing of 'disobedient' nations reminds you of your tired tired old quote from Chamberlain.


Reality is Iran stood up to our ridiculous interference and attempt to bully on their doorstep.   Trump had to respect that they did.  Had trump tried to bomb them, it would have made very clear to the world Iran's need for nuclear protection. 

So far Iran is also holding firm in not being willing to even to talk to the US/Trump until sanctions are terminated, so they aren't relenting an inch.  Iran has successfully forced trump into a box now.  No options are very good, which is what happens when a nation like the US over plays their hand as we have done.

Fathertime!   

[fathertime]

Trump won't get any deal better than Obama's. 
 

And why should he ?   Iran is under no obligation to make what they feel is a good deal for the US.

Fathertime! 

[fathertime]

Trump criticized previous Presidents for not stopping N Korea's and Iran's nuke programs. His current policies will make him no better than the Presidents he criticized because his policies won't work.

...but it is humorous to see some of the 'patriot' hypocrites defend Trump when he clearly stands down, whereas if it were Obama it would have been an angry excoriation of how big a wimp he was!   

Fathertime! 

[Maxx2]

Irrelevant.  He was a Republican who could have supported NAMBLA, which was your question.

Hastert would never have been elected if his supporters, his Republican supporters, knew he was a paedophile. You take the exception Hastert, and make it the rule.


Yes, you do have a side.

[msmob]

I am not sure of who is RoW.  Does RoW stand for the "realm of weenies?"    

'Rest of the World '... 

"agreement reached in 2015 between the Islamic Republic of Iran and a group of world powers: the P5+1 (the permanent members of the United Nations Security Council—the United States, the United Kingdom, Russia, France, and China—plus Germany) and the European Union.".. 

30 nations agreed -  including the USA - and 'Trampu' f'd it up ...and here we are ..

I guess these are Europeans who wanted to trade with Iran and Obama the Great Appeaser, conceding to demands just to get a signed deal. 

Not just Europeans, was it ?..


   

Noble idea, reminds me of Chamberlain's   "peace for our time."  Iran had its chance to come back "into the fold."    It did not. 

Once again, you prove VERY naaive, historically ..  Chamberlain bought time ...

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/UsefulNotes/NevilleChamberlain

"Though he publicly proclaimed that the move would avert war, he started Britain's programme of rearmament just to be on the safe side. His wisdom and foresight paid off when he was forced to declare war upon Germany in aid of Poland in September 1939… and the public rallied behind him and a war they then understood was inevitable"

BTW, when was Iran ever in the fold?  Under the Shah, whom the populace despised?

We've both been there .. I was there before the Shah fell and after ...  The Conservative rulers - you think THEY are 'popular either ?   The idea was to give Iran a chance to trade and through business - become more open - less hostile

 

Unstable?  Where ever you obtain your information, stop!

I assert oil prices were much more unstable before Trump. Let's do a litmus test.   

       - In June 2008 oil was $160/bbl, soon dropping in response to the Great Recession.
       - Under Obama prices started at $50 when he took office, rising to $130 in April 2011, and dropping briefly to $35 as Iran doubled its oil exports after the Obama nuclear deal and fracking increased. 
       -  Under Trump prices have varied in a narrow range, $50-65 even though Iran and VZ reduced production. 

Dr. Mobs, do you still consider this unstable!!!!

http://www.infomine.com/investment/metal-prices/crude-oil/1-year/


Hmm.. 1 year under 'Trampu' .. Theprice has varied from $50 - nearly $85  / barrel .. that's a SIXTY-FIVE percent swing - and that's 'stable' to you ?

What?  The production increases in North America (Canada and Mexico are big participants) have kept downward pressure on oil prices. 

Increased production drives oil prices UP ... China is way DOWN - FAR outweighing the USA / Mexico ...

Japan was such a saint in the decades before WW II., expanding aggressively in the Pacific, particularly into China.   Some remarkable similarities between 1930s Japan and today's Iran. 

..and the USA was competing with Japan for those same resources - the Middle East Oil boom hadn't happened yet ..   The USA sided with China and imposed sanctions of Japan and made war inevitable ..  This is 101 stuff, Gator ...that our fore-fathers were surprised is bizarre, now

Anyway, look where Japan is today after ridding itself of its militaristic and expansionist mentality.

Yup - the developed nation with the highest Public debt to GDP ratio...

[BillyB]

..and the USA was competing with Japan for those same resources - the Middle East Oil boom hadn't happened yet ..   The USA sided with China and imposed sanctions of Japan and made war inevitable ..  This is 101 stuff, Gator ...that our fore-fathers were surprised is bizarre, now

America's sanctions led to Japan lashing out and invading China in the early 30's? The League of nations didn't apply sanctions because America and Britain were main trading partners with Japan.

http://www.johndclare.net/EL5.htm

Iran isn't nowhere near as powerful as pre WW2 Japan. Iran doesn't have the ability to conquer most of its neighbors. They will instead spread their influence and support radicals in their neighbors countries.

Gator earlier said a war in Iran is impossible to win. I disagree. Iraq fought Iran for 8 years to a stalemate. A few years later, America's troop rolled all the way to Baghdad in a matter of  days. Afghanistan was supposed to be unwinnable do to them keeping the Soviets out. With supplying a few special operation troops, air support and supporting pro American Afghans, Al Qaeda and the Afghan government was beat. Maintaining stability in a country after a war is a different story. I suspect most Iranians prefer a different government just like the Iraqis so I don't see them resisting much.

[fathertime]

America's sanctions led to Japan lashing out and invading China in the early 30's? The League of nations didn't apply sanctions because America and Britain were main trading partners with Japan.

http://www.johndclare.net/EL5.htm

Iran isn't nowhere near as powerful as pre WW2 Japan. Iran doesn't have the ability to conquer most of its neighbors. They will instead spread their influence and support radicals in their neighbors countries.

Gator earlier said a war in Iran is impossible to win. I disagree. Iraq fought Iran for 8 years to a stalemate. A few years later, America's troop rolled all the way to Baghdad in a matter of  days. Afghanistan was supposed to be unwinnable do to them keeping the Soviets out. With supplying a few special operation troops, air support and supporting pro American Afghans, Al Qaeda and the Afghan government was beat. Maintaining stability in a country after a war is a different story. I suspect most Iranians prefer a different government just like the Iraqis so I don't see them resisting much.

You are casually discussing the killing of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions in an unnecessary war.  A war based on nothing more than the US wanted to make more money.       I agree with Trump's decision not to bomb Iran.  I don't think he needed to agonize over it, it should have been a no brainer.   Of course I do agree the US would militarily make Iran submit, assuming other nations don't get involved, but the victory would cause more harm than good.

Fathertime! 

[BillyB]

You are casually discussing the killing of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions in an unnecessary war.

I believe religious fanatics who think God is talking to them and crazy people like Kim Jong UN who has not Parliament or Congress to provide checks and balances on his decisions are capable of launching nuclear missiles killing tens of millions when they get upset. It really isn't a question of if this will happen, just a question of when. It may not happen when we're alive but it will happen because that is what crazy people and religious fanatics are capable of.

I also believe Iran who are supplying weapons to terrorists will supply them nukes eventually. It's better for them if someone else nuke a Western city so they can say they weren't part of it.  Lives are important to you. They are important to me too. Lives will end doing something or nothing. How do we minimize the death toll?

[msmob]

Silly BillyB

IF a war kicked off - Iran can rely on Russia to supply - logistically the USA will find it much harder ..comparing Iran v Iraq - pointless

You forgot the mad man in charge of the White House as a factor ...


The US did not want Japan competing for the same resources

[fathertime]

I believe religious fanatics who think God is talking to them and crazy people like Kim Jong UN who has not Parliament or Congress to provide checks and balances on his decisions are capable of launching nuclear missiles killing tens of millions when they get upset. It really isn't a question of if this will happen, just a question of when. It may not happen when we're alive but it will happen because that is what crazy people and religious fanatics are capable of.

I also believe Iran who are supplying weapons to terrorists will supply them nukes eventually. It's better for them if someone else nuke a Western city so they can say they weren't part of it.  Lives are important to you. They are important to me too. Lives will end doing something or nothing. How do we minimize the death toll?

I don't think it is a matter of all these leaders being 'madmen'.  Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, and others aren't conforming to what the US wants.  That is the reason the leaders are 'madmen'.  It is the US that is creating the issues, and much of the world appears to recognize that nowadays.    We are seen as the 'madman' with nukes. 

Eventually nations like Iran will get nuclear weapons, because they truly need them.  They can't afford not to have them because the deterrent pretty much takes military action off the table for the US.  North Korea is a perfect example.  Trump huffed and puffed, but reality was in the end he didn't do anything much militarily. 

The best way to avoid casualties and killing in a war is to avoid the war itself.  We (The US) will have to accept that other nations are going to do things the way they want, and not be a part of the US system of dominance.  If we are to remain at the top or near the top it will require hard work, which are current populace hasn't been capable of.  More young/willing workers, like the ones coming from South of our border would help!      

Fathertime! 

[Jamesukjames]

USA bombing Iran I can't imagine a better way to unite the Muslim world against the USA.  What the western world is only just realising is there are more jihadists in the east than patriots in the west

[2tallbill]

USA bombing Iran I can't imagine a better way to unite the Muslim world against the USA.  What the western world is only just realising is there are more jihadists in the east than patriots in the west

That's because you don't know how much the Shia and the Sunni hate
each other. It's lots and lots and lots.

[fathertime]

That's because you don't know how much the Shia and the Sunni hate
each other. It's lots and lots and lots.

This is what YOU hope.  The US is very much ok with driving the wedge in further between different segments of their religion(s) as long as it helps us make more profits at their expense.  We will gladly try to arm one side or the other while fomenting discord.   Our system of dominance isn't appreciated much by the anyone much any much. Rather than working a little harder, we are more about exploiting others, and it shows. 

Fathertime!   

[Gator]

 

'Rest of the World '... 

Why would you defend Iran?  What are Iran's redeeming qualities vs. all Iran continues to do to destabilize the region. 

Contrarian you are.   


   

Once again, you prove VERY naaive, historically ..  Chamberlain bought time ...

And now you defend Chamberlain.   

Contrarian You Are II.   

The idea was to give Iran a chance to trade and through business - become more open - less hostile

 

Noble idea.  So please point to examples of Iran's open and peaceful initiatives......"Death to Amerika."

Contrarian You are III.

 

Hmm.. 1 year under 'Trampu' .. Theprice has varied from $50 - nearly $85  / barrel .. that's a SIXTY-FIVE percent swing - and that's 'stable' to you ?

Good data source, other than 50-day moving averages are more helpful to analysis.

You say 65% swing.  Let's look closer.  The $85 price was short-lived and  resulted from 1) increased demand (America's economy was growing at a quickened pace due to tax and regulatory reforms)  and 2) reduced supply (VZ, et al).  Note that the price came down as US oil production continued to increase and Europe and China slowed, even managing to decline as Iranian supplies dwindled.   

The manner in which you read your chart without examining underlying factors sdemontrates: 

Contrarian You Are IV


In summary, you relish playing the part of the contrarian.  Admit it. 

   
____________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________

Increased production drives oil prices UP ... China is way DOWN - FAR outweighing the USA / Mexico ...

You must be misreading me.  My statement was about oil production. 

[Gator]

USA bombing Iran I can't imagine a better way to unite the Muslim world against the USA.  What the western world is only just realising is there are more jihadists in the east than patriots in the west

It is worse than that.  I am fairly certain Iran has embedded IRGC cells around the globe equipped and ready to hit soft US targets. 

But Bill is correct.  Muslims are diverse and would not unite. 

[BillyB]

USA bombing Iran I can't imagine a better way to unite the Muslim world against the USA.  What the western world is only just realising is there are more jihadists in the east than patriots in the west

Most Arabs would be happy if we bombed the Persians. America is currently defending Arabs and Muslims. we’ve gone to war twice in the last two decades to rescue people who are predominantly Muslim. Most Muslims know America doesn’t hate Muslims.

[2tallbill]

'Trampu' is f'n up all the good works of wiser players

John Kerry was the dumbest person to be Secretary of State in US History.

Oil prices are unstable - mainly because of ...'Trampu'..

You should do stand up

[fathertime]

John Kerry was the dumbest person to be Secretary of State in US History.

You should do stand up

I realize that you want it to be right wing but it's far left of everything EXCEPT
Socialism and Communism. So it's right wing compared to Communism, but
not compared to our American market economy and Constitutional Republican
form of government. Compared to what we have in the USA Fascism is left wing.
It almost exactly mirrors what they have in Modern China. Tell me how Modern
China is right wing.

Fascism is socialism with a capitalist veneer.

"Where socialism sought totalitarian control of a society’s economic processes
through direct state operation of the means of production, fascism sought that
control indirectly, through domination of nominally private owners. Where
socialism nationalized property explicitly, fascism did so implicitly, by requiring
owners to use their property in the “national interest”—that is, as the autocratic
authority conceived it.

(Nevertheless, a few industries were operated by the state.) Where socialism
abolished all market relations outright, fascism left the appearance of market
relations while planning all economic activities. Where socialism abolished
money and prices, fascism controlled the monetary system and set all prices
and wages politically. "


Follow my source by clicking here

If you change the words plunder and extortion with the word Taxes
then it sound pretty lefty to me.


Yet the Chinese have done EXACTLY that, 

They have converted from communism/socialism one step to
the right to fascism. Deng Xiaoping 101

What you are accidentally telling the world through you posts is what a significant segment of trump voters think like.   Most people from abroad are going to think you have a screw or two loose.  Here in the states most people will understand you have been metamorphosized  into an extremist through years of right wing brainwashing.

A significant portion of the right wing in the US is as dangerous as any muslim or terrorist organization.  What they would like to promote will produce much death and destruction.  Of course they will justify it in their own small minds, and make themselves the hero destroying the savages of the world.   

Fathertime!

[msmob]

Why would you defend Iran?  What are Iran's redeeming qualities vs. all Iran continues to do to destabilize the region. 

Why would you even suggesting I'm 'defending' Iran ..?   This seems to be the 'modern way' of trying to divert from the point ..

'We' - as in the other 29 nations ' Trampu' thought he knew better  than appreciate that Iran's 'leadership' does not represet the people and the deal was an attempt to show the people of Iran how they can normalise trade relations

   

And now you defend Chamberlain.   

Did you read the aticle ? Clearly not ... He bought time and prepared the UK people for a war - at a time when they might have sued for peace and allowed Hilter to invade the UK at will ....

Noble idea.  So please point to examples of Iran's open and peaceful initiatives......"Death to Amerika."

Again, you've been there and should know better ..America and esp. Britain ARE mistrusted as 'we' shafted Iran re oil deals - 'we' took the money and put xip back into Iran - paying to ensure the Shah ran the nation and oppressed oposition

I am WELL aware of Iran's hands in Syria, Lebanon and Yemen and the 'nuke deal' was - as I said - a way to allow Iran to IMPROVE it's economy - instead of lashing out at 'us' in other spheres


 

Good data source, other than 50-day moving averages are more helpful to analysis.



You say 65% swing.  Let's look closer.  The $85 price was short-lived and  resulted from 1) increased demand (America's economy was growing at a quickened pace due to tax and regulatory reforms)  and 2) reduced supply (VZ, et al).  Note that the price came down as US oil production continued to increase and Europe and China slowed, even managing to decline as Iranian supplies dwindled.   



In summary, you relish playing the part of the contrarian.  Admit it. 

 

1/ You suggested 'stabilty' - a 65% swing is anything but, over a year - no matter how you try to 'dismiss it'

2/ The peaks and troughs corrspond with events that correlate with the reasons for them ..'Trampu's' policy re Iran and Trade War's brought about most of those swings in your time of 'stability'...


Conclusion

Gator tries to avoid the FACT that 'Trampu' pulling out of the deal is why we are here - '
Thanks' - once again, 'Trampu' for proving "you re a risk to peace" - while suggesting otherwise

[Gator]

Again, you've been there and should know better ..America and esp. Britain ARE mistrusted as 'we' shafted Iran re oil deals - 'we' took the money and put xip back into Iran - paying to ensure the Shah ran the nation and oppressed oposition

That I did know.  The CIA interference was wrong. 

You said Iran's Conservative leaders today are despised.   For sure by the Iranians you knew (let me guess, educated at Cambridge).   With the UN, I traveled well outside of Teheran and met the ordinary people, who revere their religious leaders.   Very religious people: worshipers of shrines, self-flagellation ceremonies, and an underlying culture of martyrdom.   Separate from religion is a culture of accepting and respecting deceit.  Their culture of deceit means this country can never be trusted, and their martyrdom culture means they are dangerous.  A part of the world community....what a sad joke.     

Gator tries to avoid the FACT that 'Trampu' pulling out of the deal is why we are here - '
Thanks' - once again, 'Trampu' for proving "you re a risk to peace" - while suggesting otherwise

Obama should have negotiated a better deal, one that would have been ratified by Congress. 

Bottom line - the world will be far better if Iran curtailed its proxy wars, its goal to annihilate Israel, its quest for nukes, its IRGC, ...... 

Trump, the rest of the West and Iran's Sunni neighbors are clueless on how to get there because quite possibly it is impossible. 

[BillyB]

Iran to IMPROVE it's economy - instead of lashing out at 'us' in other spheres

If Iran needs America for an Improved economy, it should not be lashing out at us. If you need a company to give you financially security, you don't bite off the hand that feeds you. If Iran feels they can function without depending on any country, they are free to try to do so.

Separate from religion is a culture of accepting and respecting deceit.  Their culture of deceit means this country can never be trusted, and their martyrdom culture means they are dangerous.  A part of the world community....what a sad joke.     

I believe a lot of what goes on in the culture is due to what type of government is running the show. If we had a mafia controlled government that increased what they took from citizens and increased control, Americans may get desperate and when people are desperate, they steal, cheat or do whatever to survive.

Google "Organization Iranian American communities" and check out the photos. Large crowds of Iranians marching in front of Congress, the White House, and cities across America to promote a freer Iran. I think most people in other countries what we want. Freedom, liberty and a good life for our families but they are scared to speak out.

In other news Trump probably did cyber attack Iran before calling off the bombing. Cyber attack knocked out Iran's missile batteries.

http://www.engadget.com/2019/06/22/us-cyberattack-reportedly-knocked-out-iran-missile-control-syste/?yptr=yahoo

[BillyB]

Iran shows photos claiming they are of the recovered drone that they claim was shot down in their territory. No US markings or serial numbers on the parts though. What do you guys think? Real or propaganda?

http://www.military.com/daily-news/2019/06/21/iran-makes-show-drone-wreckage-after-trump-calls-retaliatory-strike.html

http://www.businessinsider.com/iran-shows-navy-drone-wreckage-suggests-tehran-got-first-2019-6