My view of the war

[Boethius]

From today's paper, a reporter on the ground, as the terrorists ask for a ceasefire (rather than surrender) -

Some say both sides are to blame.

We’re afraid of the Ukrainian army, which is firing on the city, and of the rebels of the Donetsk People’s Republic, who are robbing and killing civilians,” said Dmitry Andronov, a 47-year-old resident.[/[/font][/color]quote]


http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/09/rebel-forces-are-surrounded-by-ukrainian-army-says-insurgent-leader/

[fathertime]

As for your e-penis statement, that is shameful.  It is totally beneath that which we had hoped to come from you.  You have no singular claim to love of the Russian or Ukrainian peoples.  You constantly claim 'insider' information, as if you, personally, were presenting the case to the Donbas.  Get over yourself.

REALLY, you are the one that tries to claim 'insider' information!  YOU are the one that has emoted a dozen times your 'love for the Russian people'...
There was nothing THAT offensive about Shadow's E-penis statement, so it is funny that you are pretending to be 'above' all of this because you say the same sort of things just using different words.

I have watched the US pull the same stuff that Russia did in this situation over the years I've been alive.  Russia is just not as good at it.  It all seemed so amateurish.  And 1300 bodies later, not to mention the airline, Russia is still claiming non-involvement.

This is true, the USA has pulled the same stuff as Russia and made it less obvious or thrown more resources at it, at least to this point....as far as I'm concerned that should take us out of the equation in this particular dispute.  We have no leg to stand on, without being complete hypocrites.  Getting tied up in Iraq again will likely be a good 'out' for us regarding this conflict (and it may not be a coincidence)...I wouldn't call it a green light just yet for Russia, but it might wind up being just that...we shall see...Meanwhile the sanctions are now harming both us and them.   


Fathertime!   

[lordtiberius]

I met with a friend of mine who is a lawyer in Kiev. 

He graduated in 2007.  He says he never knew a prosperous year.  Every year things went from bad to even worse. He had a job offer to emigrate to Dubai, but he declined because he cannot see abandoning his elderly parents.  He supported the Orange Revolution but was cool when I discussed politics in March of 2013. He does not like the nationalists. His father is Russian and retired from the Soviet Army as a full colonel.  They live near the Belorussian border.  He took a dim view of the Svobody Party and feared that he would be targeted for violence due to his ethnicity.  He has family on both sides of the border with whom they visit.

In following his statements during the course of Euromaidan, he went from reluctance to full throated support.  He saw his country moving toward the family of nations that respect human rights.  When Russia invaded Crimea and that the West would not support Ukraine.  He contemplated emigrated to Kazakhstan where discrimination against Russian speakers is more established.  But in emigrating, he would have to leave his parents.  He choose to stay.

If Russia does invade, they will bomb Kiev.  They may even nuke it and Lviv.  He may get drafted.

On my last visit with him in June, we took a spin in his car.  It is a beautiful machine.  He saved $ 20,000 to buy it.

[jone]

REALLY, you are the one that tries to claim 'insider' information!  YOU are the one that has emoted a dozen times your 'love for the Russian people'...
There was nothing THAT offensive about Shadow's E-penis statement, so it is funny that you are pretending to be 'above' all of this because you say the same sort of things just using different words.



This is true, the USA has pulled the same stuff as Russia and made it less obvious or thrown more resources at it, at least to this point....as far as I'm concerned that should take us out of the equation in this particular dispute.  We have no leg to stand on, without being complete hypocrites.  Getting tied up in Iraq again will likely be a good 'out' for us regarding this conflict (and it may not be a coincidence)...I wouldn't call it a green light just yet for Russia, but it might wind up being just that...we shall see...Meanwhile the sanctions are now harming both us and them.   


Fathertime!

There is a dramatic amount of difference between Shadow saying something, who has been there and done that, and someone coming on this website who has no special interest in Ukraine/Russia/Eastern Europe, but just loves to shoot his mouth off.  Those of us who have friends and family in these countries have used this outlet to vent our hopes and fears.  You, on the other hand, have neither friends nor family in Eastern Europe. 

Your sole perspective is as an American citizen and how the US shouldn't get involved, militarily.  We hear you.  Many times over.  And then many times after that.  It is an opinion shared by almost all of the users of this forum.  Unfortunately, lacking a reference point, it is hard for you to understand people who are worried about their family members fighting or friends being drafted.

None of my posts were directed towards you.  I wonder why that is?

[fathertime]

There is a dramatic amount of difference between Shadow saying something, who has been there and done that, and someone coming on this website who has no special interest in Ukraine/Russia/Eastern Europe, but just loves to shoot his mouth off.  Those of us who have friends and family in these countries have used this outlet to vent our hopes and fears.  You, on the other hand, have neither friends nor family in Eastern Europe. 

Your sole perspective is as an American citizen and how the US shouldn't get involved, militarily.  We hear you.  Many times over.  And then many times after that.  It is an opinion shared by almost all of the users of this forum.  Unfortunately, lacking a reference point, it is hard for you to understand people who are worried about their family members fighting or friends being drafted.

None of my posts were directed towards you.  I wonder why that is?

You had no problem shooting your mouth off trying to put Shadow down (for the same things you do)so I don't know why you are groaning about being called out again.   It doesn't matter to me if you direct a post at me or not...I will still direct an occasional post at you when I feel like it.  Maybe my POV mostly comes from being interested in the USA staying out, although it was me that made you stand down when you INSISTED Russia was going to invade 4 months ago, when I didn't believe it to be true.  Once again you are claiming Russia is going to be invading, and this time they might....although there is still some fading hope the two sides will reach some sort of agreement to avert it.   


Fathertime!   

[AC]

You will never believe the fact that the majority of the populations in this region did not support the "separatists".  If they had, Ukrainian forces would never have retaken the regions that they have.

This is the key, to knowing what the truth is.  The truth is very obvious.

[jone]

You had no problem shooting your mouth off trying to put Shadow down (for the same things you do)so I don't know why you are groaning about being called out again.   It doesn't matter to me if you direct a post at me or not...I will still direct an occasional post at you when I feel like it.  Maybe my POV mostly comes from being interested in the USA staying out, although it was me that made you stand down when you INSISTED Russia was going to invade 4 months ago, when I didn't believe it to be true.  Once again you are claiming Russia is going to be invading, and this time they might....although there is still some fading hope the two sides will reach some sort of agreement to avert it.   


Fathertime!

There isn't a dialogue here, FT.  You are now on ignore.  I won't be responding to you any more.  Have a good life.

[lordtiberius]

We hear you.  Many times over.  And then many times after that. 

[Anotherkiwi]

What has some (presumably American) baseball player got to do with any of this?

[Drew]

Chicago Cubs baseball player.  Maybe because he does it over and over again.

[Shadow]

No "propaganda" stated oligarchs were funding the terrorists.

Russian journalists wrote "propaganda" about missing mercenaries, whose bodies were transported back to Russia. 

It was not "propaganda" that Poroshenko declared a unilateral ceasefire, and the terrorists used that ceasefire to kill and wound close to 100 soldiers and border patrols.

I've linked the "propaganda" from residents of cities Ukraine has retaken, telling their views of the "separatists" they supported.  That "propaganda", incidentally, also includes their criticism of Ukrainian forces for shelling their cities, causing massive destruction and, at times, death.

Even the Russians admit the "propaganda" that they have amassed tens of thousands on the Ukrainian border, though, of course, they claim it is "regular military exercises".

You will never believe the fact that the majority of the populations in this region did not support the "separatists".  If they had, Ukrainian forces would never have retaken the regions that they have.

I have always maintained the view that there is propaganda from both sides.
If the majority of the population was oppressed by the separatists, a 'victory celebration' in Slovjanks would bring out more than 50 people.

I am unsure if you are buying in to propaganda or knowingly spread it, howver the tactics are pretty clear.

1. Your use of polls that are correct, yet do not ask the correct questions, nor are valid in a fast changing situation. If you would ask the same question one year ago, six months ago and today you would see a shift in answers.
In March the people did not want Ukraine to break apart. That was before they were bombed and shot at by their own government. Their opinion may have changed.
Similar, a question if someone supports a division of Ukraine is not the same as a question if someone supports the Kiev government. Twisting the answer like it does is propaganda.

2. Your use of personal disaster stories. Atrocities happen and happen on both sides. It is a civil war and unfortunately both sides try to demonize the other, as there is a mental barrier to kill another human being that is considered equal.
Once people are brought in to a state where the other side is seen as less human, this brings forth an altered state of mind in which people do atrocius things. I will never say that is good, but I will say it is an effect of (civil) war.
However to bring these stories is a way to demonize the group to which those who committed them belong. That is propaganda.

[ghost of moon goddess]

I have always maintained the view that there is propaganda from both sides.

''With both Russian and Ukrainian propaganda outlets fanning divisions in conflict-ridden eastern Ukraine, local communities are struggling to move on''

Ukraine Trauma Counselors Battle ‘Info-Intoxication’, by Simon Shuster

http://time.com/3079245/ukraine-trauma-counselors-battle-info-intoxication/

[krimster2]

shale gas fields near Slovyansk — with a potential reserve of about 3 trillion cubic meters of gas — were the cause of constant tension between Russia and Ukraine. (at the Russian price of $430 per 1,000 cu meters this is worth (drum roll) $1.2 trillion!!!!!)

“Since recently, Gazprom bosses have been worried about shale gas production in Europe and financed propaganda campaigns against the evil of shale gas,” said Mikhail Krutikhin, a senior energy expert at RusEnergy, a Moscow-based consulting firm.

Kiev’s plan was to set up a joint venture with Shell and drill for shale gas around Slovyansk (have you heard that name in the news lately?) (Later that year, a similar $10 billion deal was reached with Chevron for exploration in western Ukraine.)

On June 20, Denis Pushilin, then an official in the Donestk People’s Republic, declared that the “USA unfolded significant activity” in Slovyansk to make money on shale gas and promised that under his authority, nobody would ever allow “dangerous for the ecology” shale gas development in the Donbass.   (what he meant was “dangerous for Gazprom monopoly”)

“Gas paranoia stopped as soon as Pushilin left the Donetsk People’s Republic. It must have been a well-organized campaign that manipulated with people’s minds,” a Donetsk entrepreneur and civil society organizer, Enrike Menendes, said in an interview about the causes of the war and the future of eastern Ukraine.



A tip of the hat to aljazeera   

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/10/long-before-the-fearofwartherewasfearoffrackinginukraine.html

[fathertime]

A tip of the hat to aljazeera   

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/10/long-before-the-fearofwartherewasfearoffrackinginukraine.html

Thanks for the link.  The fact that Joe Biden's son is involved with gas production in Ukraine should have never been allowed to happen.  It looks very suspicious and provides another lightening rod for distrust. 


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

1. Your use of polls that are correct, yet do not ask the correct questions, nor are valid in a fast changing situation. If you would ask the same question one year ago, six months ago and today you would see a shift in answers.
In March the people did not want Ukraine to break apart. That was before they were bombed and shot at by their own government. Their opinion may have changed.
Similar, a question if someone supports a division of Ukraine is not the same as a question if someone supports the Kiev government. Twisting the answer like it does is propaganda.

The polls I link have the questions included.  The last poll taken was less than a month ago, so it does take into account the current situation.

2. Your use of personal disaster stories. Atrocities happen and happen on both sides. It is a civil war and unfortunately both sides try to demonize the other, as there is a mental barrier to kill another human being that is considered equal.
Once people are brought in to a state where the other side is seen as less human, this brings forth an altered state of mind in which people do atrocius things. I will never say that is good, but I will say it is an effect of (civil) war.
However to bring these stories is a way to demonize the group to which those who committed them belong. That is propaganda.

I have noted where the Ukrainian army has shelled cities, causing death.  However, unlike the terrorists, the Ukrainian army does not kidnap and beat civilians.  It does not execute terrorists.  It does not carry out extra judicial killings.  All of these things are widely reported, some even admitted to, by the terrorists.  For example, if anyone from a private militia is captured, he is tortured, then executed.  The terrorists openly admit this.  Mass graves have been uncovered in captured territory.   That is not propaganda.

[krimster2]

FatherTime,
   Burisma Holdings hired Joe Jr. and also hired Devon Archer who was a campaign manage for John Kerry and is a trustee for the Heinz Family, you know "The" Heinz Co. who agreed to be purchased by Berkshire Hathaway and 3G Capital for $23 Billion, Joe Jr and Devon Archer together founded Rosemont Realty, which must own over a billion in prime US office space

[lordtiberius]

All of this is garbage.  Off topic crap.  Talk about the personal cost of the war to you or get off the thread.  HAVE SOME RESPECT

[lonedrake]

What has some (presumably American) baseball player got to do with any of this?

It just means he hit it out of the park in his response.

Similar to a +1000 reply.

[BillyB]

shale gas fields near Slovyansk — with a potential reserve of about 3 trillion cubic meters of gas — were the cause of constant tension between Russia and Ukraine. (at the Russian price of $430 per 1,000 cu meters this is worth (drum roll) $1.2 trillion!!!!!)

Not surprising. That's one of the reasons Putin wanted Crimea and extend its boundaries in the Black Sea. Trillions of dollars worth of fossil fuels there. The poor Crimeans will probably see little benefit from it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/18/world/europe/in-taking-crimea-putin-gains-a-sea-of-fuel-reserves.html?_r=0

[fathertime]

FatherTime,
   Burisma Holdings hired Joe Jr. and also hired Devon Archer who was a campaign manage for John Kerry and is a trustee for the Heinz Family, you know "The" Heinz Co. who agreed to be purchased by Berkshire Hathaway and 3G Capital for $23 Billion, Joe Jr and Devon Archer together founded Rosemont Realty, which must own over a billion in prime US office space

Interesting Krimster...so now Biden AND Kerry have very close links to this gas company...  I can completely see why there is so much distrust of the west.  Our credibility was already shot, but now it is doubly shot! 


 To look on the bright (greedy) side, if indeed things go the way the US wants them to go, our country (The USA) will make profits somehow I imagine...and that is good for me personally. 


Fathertime! 

[I/O]

our country (The USA) will make profits somehow I imagine

Nothing wrong with JVs providing the split doesn't screw the locals completely.

[lordtiberius]

Interesting Krimster...so now Biden AND Kerry have very close links to this gas company...  I can completely see why there is so much distrust of the west.  Our credibility was already shot, but now it is doubly shot! 


 To look on the bright (greedy) side, if indeed things go the way the US wants them to go, our country (The USA) will make profits somehow I imagine...and that is good for me personally. 


Fathertime!

Do you have any friends or relatives in the conflict?

[krimster2]

Burisma Holdings Ltd. was formally owned by  Mr. Zlochewsky, a citizen of Ukraine and
under Yanukovych was Ukraine’s environmental minister (I bet drilling permits were easy to get!)

However Burisma later rather mysteriously changed ownership to Ihor Kolomoisky, the #2 oligarch in Ukraine, my belief is that Archer/Biden are there as a fig leaf to help raise international investment funds for Burisma.

A fascinating article for you to read at The AntiCorruption Action Center

http://antac.org.ua/en/2012/08/kings-of-ukrainian-gas/

So don’t worry, Donetsk shale gas isn’t an American project at all, in fact there’s even a chance it could all be a scam

[Photo Guy]

Krimster, how does that article, from 2012, relate to current conditions and Archer and Biden?

[Misha]

Shooter is getting royally drunk right now as he awaits his execution.
http://www.unian.net/politics/949657-strelok-bejal-iz-donetska-i-besprobudno-pet-sovetnik-avakova.html

Yes, the reports of the "liquidation brigade" should certainly not be of much comfort to Strelkov et al. He has become too much of a liability to Putin, given his popularity among the Russian nationalists.