Russian Women Discussion

RWD News From the Front => Russian Front Discussion => Topic started by: Photo Guy on April 09, 2014, 09:32:51 PM

Title: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 09, 2014, 09:32:51 PM
I have been reading about what Moscow's media is saying about Ukraine. It is insane and people in Russia are believing it. Putin is saying that the new government in Kyiv is a bunch of Nazi fascists, who should be feared by the world. Moscow has been promoting the idea of 'protecting ethnic Russians and Russian speakers' in Ukraine/Crimea. Kerry is correct- It is a false pretext for invasion. Russian speakers were never in any danger in Crimea or other parts of Ukraine. I believe that we have to bring the truth to Russians. The revolution in Kyiv was about ideology. Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. Freedom to choose democracy as opposed to strongman dictatorship. The desire to rid Ukraine of corruption. Russians should know that the people who were protesting were people of all ages. They were average citizens who want a better way of life. They were not extremists. Russians need to see the truth. Putin is gradually destroying Russia and trying to destroy Ukraine. The revolution got rid of a person who is very similar to Putin. Putin is out for revenge. Russians need to wake up!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 09, 2014, 09:35:22 PM
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=291310237704604

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 09, 2014, 09:46:43 PM
I believe that we have to bring the truth to Russians.



What do you propose? Putin owns the Russian media. He recently clamped down on NGOs(non-governmental organizations) in Russia who promote alternative points of view. It's a dangerous time for someone to go into Russia and promote a different point of view. Putin brings truth to Russians. If you want to stop his brand of truth, you stop Putin. Call your congressman for starters and let him/her know America should back Ukraine all the way.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 09, 2014, 10:45:24 PM

What do you propose? Putin owns the Russian media. He recently clamped down on NGOs(non-governmental organizations) in Russia who promote alternative points of view. It's a dangerous time for someone to go into Russia and promote a different point of view. Putin brings truth to Russians. If you want to stop his brand of truth, you stop Putin. Call your congressman for starters and let him/her know America should back Ukraine all the way.

Billy, I propose info via the internet, RWD, FB, etc. Anyone from Russia here at RWD?
...militarily, I wish Ukraine could be reinforced somehow. Putin brings lies to Russians.
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 10, 2014, 12:20:38 AM
I bet u understand zero Russian to judge about we are lying or not. And I understand enouth English to see an opposite thing.
Inhale, exhale and relax. Nobody pretends on Alaska.  As for me I want to censorship news in Russia for using word Ukraina.  Tired  to hear about the next maidan, let them go where they want without Russian gas and money.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 10, 2014, 12:59:21 AM
I believe that we have to bring the truth to Russians.
I beleive you have a "knight in shining armour" complex.

Putin is ... trying to destroy Ukraine.
Ukraine is already destroyed by its own citizens, so Putin has nothing to do, don't worry about him, please.

Russians need to wake up!
And you need to relax.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 10, 2014, 01:36:02 AM
You both sound very angry. Are Russians angry? Why? Why is Russia surrounding Ukraine with her military? Putin has already asked his own government for permission to use his military in Ukraine. I can give you many examples of Putin lying. In Russia and now Crimea, there is only ONE news agency. There are no opinions. Putin lies when he says that the new government in Kyiv is a bunch of radical fascists or neo-Nazis. Those are obvious lies. Can't you see that? Putin and Yanukovych are the same: They both believe it should be illegal for citizens to openly protest in the square, the maidan. Putin lied when he said he was sending soldiers to Crimea to 'protect' Russian speakers, and before that he lied when he said the military in Crimea were not from Russia. Everybody could see the Russian vehicles. Why does Moscow allow only ONE news agency? To make it easier to lie. Russians need to realize that the new government in Kyiv is good for the people of Ukraine. The new government is only bad for two people: Putin and Yanukovych(Putin junior) Russians: Wake up! And when Putin shuts off the gas to Ukrainian homes, he is acting like a bully, a thug. Citizens of Russia want to have a bully for a leader???? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 10, 2014, 01:37:04 AM
I bet u understand zero Russian to judge about we are lying or not. And I understand enouth English to see an opposite thing.
Inhale, exhale and relax. Nobody pretends on Alaska.  As for me I want to censorship news in Russia for using word Ukraina.  Tired  to hear about the next maidan, let them go where they want without Russian gas and money.
What are you trying to say about Alaska? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 10, 2014, 01:45:23 AM
You both sound very angry.
We are tired of people like you. Please, go to teach how to live somebody else.  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 10, 2014, 01:52:07 AM
Russia should not invade Ukraine. They should also NOT invade Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Moldova, Georgia, or China. Placing all of those troops along the border is acting like a neighborhood 'bully'. (thug) Putin and Crimea is like Hitler and the Sudetenland. It's barbaric. Putin would have brother fight against brother. For what?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 10, 2014, 02:17:45 AM
What are you smoking?  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lonedrake on April 10, 2014, 04:08:09 AM
Quote
I propose info via the internet, RWD, FB, etc. Anyone from Russia here at RWD?

 You have two reading and responding so far. It may take a while to get them on board :)

Quote
Those are obvious lies.

 From what I have read...The more Putin lies....the more they love him......even when they know he is lying.

 



 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 10, 2014, 04:55:34 AM
You have two reading and responding so far. It may take a while to get them on board :)

 From what I have read...The more Putin lies....the more they love him......even when they know he is lying.

One guy I know very well never go to elections cuz as he told he never voted for criminals. You have 3 attempts to guess what country he is from  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 10, 2014, 05:32:12 AM
You have two reading and responding so far. It may take a while to get them on board :)
RWD is not a right place to talk to those Russians who can't read English, watch Russian tv and beleive it. I wonder why some people don't get it.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Dewed on April 10, 2014, 05:57:32 AM
Gotta go with die_cast on that one.. if you are wanting to reach un-informed Russian citizens.. this is likely not the best venue..  because all the FSU memeber here KNOW EVERYTHING ! ! !

that was a joke by the way.. mostly.. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 10, 2014, 05:58:50 AM
Billy, I propose info via the internet, RWD, FB, etc.



Why would Russians believe your brand of truth instead of their president's? The West has slowly befriended most nations that were previously in the USSR's sphere of influence. For every nation the West takes away from Russia, that's one less business partner they'll have and it affects their economy.


There are a couple of ways Russia can get those countries back. One is to offer more benefits than Western nations, the other is using hostile means.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 10, 2014, 06:03:11 AM
if you are wanting to reach un-informed Russian citizens.. this is likely not the best venue..
Let's just be rational. How many Russian citizens he can reach here?  :D Five, may be? :D IDK
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Turboguy on April 10, 2014, 06:03:29 AM
Nice to see you posting PG.


I have stayed out of most of the discussions about what is happening in Ukraine so far.  A few comments that I will share in this thread.


As far as my interpretation of what effect the propaganda has had on Russian people, based on my wife's comments Putin's approval rating in Russia has gone from one similar to Obama in the 30% range to more in the 70% range.  Perhaps they are listing to propaganda but Russian citizens seem to approve of what he has done.


My second comment is that all news seems to be biased.  Russia isn't the only country that gets propaganda from their news reports.  I have noticed some comments from people living in the UK who have a totally different take on the whole thing.  It actually shocked me a bit when I first encountered it but have seen more comments that agreed with what I first heard.  In many parts of the world they seem to think the USA is the villain in the problems Ukraine is encountering.  That we funded the turmoil there to the tune of 100 million or so and with people prompted to agitate the situation. 


   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: stilllooking on April 10, 2014, 08:19:18 AM
As far as my interpretation of what effect the propaganda has had on Russian people, based on my wife's comments Putin's approval rating in Russia has gone from one similar to Obama in the 30% range to more in the 70% range.  Perhaps they are listing to propaganda but Russian citizens seem to approve of what he has done.


My second comment is that all news seems to be biased.  Russia isn't the only country that gets propaganda from their news reports.  I have noticed some comments from people living in the UK who have a totally different take on the whole thing.  It actually shocked me a bit when I first encountered it but have seen more comments that agreed with what I first heard.  In many parts of the world they seem to think the USA is the villain in the problems Ukraine is encountering.  That we funded the turmoil there to the tune of 100 million or so and with people prompted to agitate the situation. 


There is nothing like a threat to the citizenship and a leader's tough words and actions against that threat to unite a nation. Most of the world can not believe the US voted for Bush Jr. once, let alone twice (and yes, I realize that depending on which account you believe the first time the US may not have voted for him). would he have had a second term without 9/11 and the WMD excuse to go into Iraq? His approval ratings skyrocketed from slightly above 50% to 90% after 9/11.

There is a part of the world that perceives the US as not practicing what they preach. They preach China on Human rights but let's be honest, Texas also has a very questionable record when it comes to Human rights (as do some other states with the death Penalty). They say Putin used lies to have an excuse to annex Crimea, did Bush Jr. not use lies to invade Iraq a second time? (or maybe by now they have found those WMD's?)

So, it's not so weird that just like people questions Putin's accounts of what is happening, they also question American accounts of what is happening.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 10, 2014, 09:13:13 AM
There is a part of the world that perceives the US as not practicing what they preach. They preach China on Human rights but let's be honest, Texas also has a very questionable record when it comes to Human rights (as do some other states with the death Penalty).

Police in the US have violated citizens' constitutional rights and the situation has been getting worse over the last few decades.  But most often this doesn't relate to the death penalty and isn't limited to the so-called "red states".  It is a result of the "war on drugs".

Here is a link to one particularly egregious case.  The police executed a no-knock warrant, breaking down the door to Cory Maye's apartment where he lived with his infant daughter. They were looking for illegal drugs. As it turns out they broke down the door of the wrong apartment.  Mr. Maye defended himself and killed a sheriff's deputy, who was, if my recollection is correct, a relative of the Sheriff, the top law enforcement in the county.  He was convicted of murder.  There were no illegal drugs found in Mr. Maye's apartment. After some years his conviction was overturned. http://www.theagitator.com/2008/05/08/mississippi-drug-war-blues-the-case-of-cory-maye/

You can get some idea of the more common violations of the constitutional prohibition of unreasonable searches by googling the phrase "body cavity search".  You will find many examples of drivers being stopped and police probing their vaginas and rectums in an attempt to find illegal drugs.  In several cases when a body cavity search didn't turn up drugs the police took the driver to a hospital to have x-rays and enemas given.  The poop was carefully scrutinized for drugs (wouldn't you love to have that job!).

But to put US violations of human rights in the same league as Chinese violations of human rights is not correct.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 10, 2014, 10:09:26 AM
One guy I know very well never go to elections cuz as he told he never voted for criminals. You have 3 attempts to guess what country he is from  :D

Anyone can have an opinion.  The difference is that in the United States you have the ability to express that opinion without the FSB knocking on your door.  In the US, if you got a bunch of your friends together and protested the government, they wouldn't arrest you.  They would call you Republicans.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BC on April 10, 2014, 10:16:06 AM
I think what many overlook is that there are many flavors and styles of 'democracy', even propaganda.

Each has it's advantages and disadvantages.

Putin obviously has popular support in RU and other places so who's to argue that what he is doing or not is wrong?

Some like vanilla, some strawberry and some chocolate.. so what.. live and let live.

They will figure things out quite well for themselves.  Best not to meddle IMHO.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BC on April 10, 2014, 10:17:04 AM
Anyone can have an opinion.  The difference is that in the United States you have the ability to express that opinion without the FSB knocking on your door.  In the US, if you got a bunch of your friends together and protested the government, they wouldn't arrest you.  They would call you Republicans.

apples and oranges.... again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 10, 2014, 10:23:32 AM
Putin obviously has popular support in RU and other places so who's to argue that what he is doing or not is wrong?

Some like vanilla, some strawberry and some chocolate.. so what.. live and let live.

Popular support doesn't make a leader's actions right.  Not to extend the comparison too far, but Hitler had a great deal of popular support in Germany.  That didn't make his actions right.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 10, 2014, 10:31:32 AM
Anyone can have an opinion.  The difference is that in the United States you have the ability to express that opinion without the FSB knocking on your door.  In the US, if you got a bunch of your friends together and protested the government, they wouldn't arrest you.  They would call you Republicans.

LOL
 
Like this?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faip5RwMEvU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faip5RwMEvU)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 10, 2014, 10:49:50 AM
That is FUN-Knee.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2014, 11:23:20 AM
I have been reading about what Moscow's media is saying about Ukraine. It is insane and people in Russia are believing it....

Where were you in the run-up to the 2008 Presidential election and the ensuing 2012 election campaign? Notice anything different concerning *propaganda* with your quote above? 20/40 million uninsured Americans? Really?

Your reaction is EXACTLY why propaganda exist and thrives. Here's a little tidbit that would maybe shine a little light with you:

"...Here’s a more current example of the Hegelian Dialectic in use. In Australia at present both of the main political parties on the eve of the upcoming election on September 7 are discussing “Boat People”. A derogatory term used to describe refugees and asylum seekers displaced by war or other hardships. I don’t believe they constitute what you would call a “crisis” as the statistics clearly show they aren’t, but for the purpose of this example, our Government is telling us they are a problem.

The media is used to play up this problem
in order to instigate a reaction (debate) in the public domain on how to tackle it. Both the opposition and ruling party offer their solution. Again we see that the only real debate occurring is just the minor differences between those two parties. Nothing is said or done about the many other more important issues that neither left or right is discussing.

In order to avoid falling victim to the Hegelian Dialectic from now on you must remember the process involved. Anytime a major problem or issue arises in society think about who will gain or profit from it. Then remove yourself from the equation and take a step back to look at it from a third party perspective. See the so-called “problem”, look at who is reacting, why and in what way. Then look for who is offering up the solution.

When you do this from now on you’ll quickly see the real truth instead of the false truth they wanted you to see...."


http://www.infowars.com/the-hegelian-dialectic-and-its-use-in-controlling-modern-society/ (http://www.infowars.com/the-hegelian-dialectic-and-its-use-in-controlling-modern-society/)


You can actually see this very dynamic/principle at work just on this board. Like the sampled political party mentioned above, the people *reacted* (antithesis) to a (created / orchestrated) *problem*(thesis)  with little or no solution (synthesis)  to the *crisis*

So, in the end, I can only hope you and others like you, can at least find some entertainment value in your quest to find the solution through your reaction to the crisis.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: CanadaMan on April 10, 2014, 11:29:35 AM
Anyone can have an opinion.  The difference is that in the United States you have the ability to express that opinion without the FSB knocking on your door. 

Ever heard of Barrett Brown, Susan Lindauer, Sibel Edmonds et al? 
Read up!

The U.S. today is not nearly as citizen-friendly as it once used to be.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: CanadaMan on April 10, 2014, 12:14:55 PM
Russians need to realize that the new government in Kyiv is good for the people of Ukraine. The new government is only bad for two people: Putin and Yanukovych(Putin junior) Russians: Wake up!

PG, if anyone needs to wake up it is you! Good for the people of Ukraine? :)

It would behoove you to start with a brief backgrounder on Ukraine's current political situation.

Take a listen to this 14 minute show that was broadcast yesterday on CBC radio.
There were two excellent guests talking about Ukraine.

Take special note to what Irvin Studin says in the second half of the interviews.
As Editor-in-Chief of Global Brief Magazine, Professor at the School of Public Policy and Governance at the University of Toronto and co-founder of Ukraine's Higher School of Public Administration this man knows a thing or two about Ukraine.

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/ID/2447812448/ (http://www.cbc.ca/player/Radio/ID/2447812448/)


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 10, 2014, 12:46:02 PM
I believe that we have to bring the truth to Russians. The revolution in Kyiv was about ideology. Freedom of speech. Freedom of assembly. Freedom to choose democracy as opposed to strongman dictatorship. The desire to rid Ukraine of corruption. Russians should know that the people who were protesting were people of all ages. They were average citizens who want a better way of life. They were not extremists. Russians need to see the truth. Putin is gradually destroying Russia and trying to destroy Ukraine. The revolution got rid of a person who is very similar to Putin. Putin is out for revenge. Russians need to wake up!
That's funny. This guy wants to open our eyes even though we read 10 times more information about the events, read first hand evidences, know background of politicians involved, know history of conflict, know people from both sides.  Sounds as a joke.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 10, 2014, 01:15:29 PM
That's funny. This guy wants to open our eyes even though we read 10 times more information about the events, read first hand evidences, know background of politicians involved, know history of conflict, know people from both sides.  Sounds as a joke.

Absolutely.
 
Photoguy, don't you know we cannot trust our lamestream media?
 
I mean, it is not even close to the openess of the media in Russia. Now there is an incredible independent and truthful media.
 
Edit to add: Pot, meet kettle.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 10, 2014, 02:08:10 PM

I mean, it is not even close to the openess of the media in Russia. Now there is an incredible independent and truthful media.


I would not refer Facebook or LiveJournal to media in Russia though may be you're right. Move with the times  :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 10, 2014, 03:08:21 PM
MAN! I am so impressed how GQ has grown! Too bad he doesn't unblock me from sending him a PM.

Over a hundred years ago the Anglo-American empire realized the vast resource rich Russia could be a threat to their world hegemony. So they sought to weaken Russia. They first did this by funding the communist revolution. 20 years later when Stalin became a threat to Europe they funded Hitler as a counter. When the Soviet Union fell in 1991 the West wanted to take it over by use of Western banking and multi-national corporations with ties to the oligarchs. Putin stopped that. During the 2008 Olympics Georgia which is allied with America and Israel (military advisors) shelled Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia and invaded that providence. In the West we only heard about Russia's invasion of Georgia. During the 2012 Olympics the West financed demonstrators and provocateurs to overthrow a government that was cozy with Russia. A government that had decided not to join the EU and not join their monetary and tax system. Then there was the whole gay rights agenda being pushed on Russia. Homosexuals and lesbians making up the American delegation to the Olympics. The whole Pussy Riot scene of desecrating an altar and their support by the West. Putins no saint but he at least does what right for himself and Russia. Can we say the later for our president with America?   




Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 10, 2014, 03:20:55 PM
I'm an equal-opportunity blocker, maxx. So relax  :P

9/11: No.Nothing's changed with me.
Boston Bomber frame-up: Yes. Nothing's changed with me.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 10, 2014, 03:41:18 PM
I'm an equal-opportunity blocker, maxx. So relax  :P

9/11: No.Nothing's changed with me.
Boston Bomber frame-up: Yes. Nothing's changed with me.


I knew all along I wasn't alone, it's everyone. We are ALL deprived.


The Boston Bomber case has one suspicious aspect after another to it. I liked how Russia warned us about the elder brother traveling on a fake passport and nothing was done about it. Try you or I doing something like that and see if we could get away with it. Kind of reminds of the US embassy employee in Saudi Arabia stopping those 9/11 terrorists from entering the U.S. and then getting the phone call from...... ah.... never mind


 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 10, 2014, 04:08:37 PM
Muhz, I am not saying bribery and corruption do not exist in the USA or Eu or wherever. I am saying we should fight against corruption. I am saying we should try to stop Russia from invading Ukraine under the false pretext of 'protecting Russian speakers'.

When Hitler invaded the Sudentenland, we should have questioned that and taken action.
When Putin invades Ukraine, we should question that and take action.
When Bush invaded Iraq, we should have questioned that and stopped it.

It bothers me that Russians in Russia do not question authority. When a government or President lies, they should be held accountable.
Always question authority.

I think the government of the Russian Federation is afraid of losing Ukraine as a trading partner. Russia is saying: choose us as your partner, do not choose the EU. In reality, free trade can be established with both sides. Meanwhile, Russia surrounds Ukraine with its military. Do Russians think that is acceptable? Why? Share your thoughts.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 10, 2014, 04:48:14 PM
After the Soviet Union dissolved, I was really unhappy with the way the West treated them. The West and NATO continued the cold war, seeing Russia as a threat. NATO expanded and the question was- who was NATO protecting us from? The idea of placing missiles in eastern Poland was idiotic. It was the perfect plan for creating paranoia in Russia. Now Russia is acting in a way that looks aggressive and dangerous which will inhibit investments from around the globe. Russia has gas and oil resources. Why would Putin use these resources as a way to manipulate Ukraine and the EU? Doesn't Putin realize this translates as an erratic policy? Free trade requires consistency and predictability for it to benefit all parties, otherwise trade breaks down.
This new film shows the reality of individuals at Euromaidan:
http://youtu.be/8L07GkYY2w0

 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 10, 2014, 11:54:04 PM
PG, if anyone needs to wake up it is you! Good for the people of Ukraine? :)
Finally someone without pink glasses here!  :clapping:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 02:55:43 AM
Photo Guy, is it you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQbtUJYFjE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsQbtUJYFjE)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: justme100 on April 11, 2014, 03:45:24 AM
Finally someone without pink glasses here!  :clapping:
thought the same when I read Canadaman's post :)

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lonedrake on April 11, 2014, 05:56:20 AM
Quote
One guy I know very well never go to elections cuz as he told he never voted for criminals. You have 3 attempts to guess what country he is from 

 Excellent...I love guessing games :clapping:  What do I win?

 My first attempt is Russia ....for obvious reason (see quote :))

 My second attempt is Iran. I heard they love strong women there so It makes sense you would go there.

 My third attempt is North Korea. ( just a wild guess :))
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 06:20:11 AM
Excellent...I love guessing games :clapping:  What do I win?

 My first attempt is Russia ....for obvious reason (see quote :))

 My second attempt is Iran. I heard they love strong women there so It makes sense you would go there.

 My third attempt is North Korea. ( just a wild guess :))
He lives in the Land of Freedom. USA.  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 11, 2014, 08:14:42 AM
apples and oranges.... again.

It was a joke, BC.  I was having fun.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lonedrake on April 11, 2014, 08:30:20 AM
Quote
He lives in the Land of Freedom. USA. 

 Damn, I thought for sure I was going to win :'(

 It is important for couples  to have common interests. Since you both hate USA......I think you will do fine :welcome:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2014, 09:01:34 AM
After the Soviet Union dissolved, I was really unhappy with the way the West treated them. The West and NATO continued the cold war, seeing Russia as a threat. NATO expanded and the question was- who was NATO protecting us from? The idea of placing missiles in eastern Poland was idiotic.



If you break free from something you were forced to be in and didn't like and joined an organization that will prevent you from ever getting back into the same situation again, why is it the organization's fault? Obama cancelled the missiles in Poland and it didn't seem to calm Putin down, did it? Showing weakness enables bullies to act.


Many ex Soviet bloc nations aren't having the same problems as Ukraine is having now. Do you think they joined NATO because they're dumb? NATO gets credit for the stability in those nations. Those nations don't have to worry about Russia influencing their elections and worry much less than Ukraine about invasion. Russia doesn't want to bring America into the fight.


The best way Russia can beat the West is show everybody they can be trusted and relied on more than America and NATO. Once they establish that, they will have plenty of countries that want to partner up with them.


Smart people running nations have to look out for how to survive in this dangerous world while many of their citizens are ignorant on the importance of long term security. Look at history, weak and small nations usually get gobbled up. I see a lot of people complain about today's world. If the Soviet Union won the cold war, do you think they'd be as friendly with us as we are with them? Do you think they'd do what America has done and stay within it's own borders without expanding? I can imagine a world that is much more uglier than it is now.
Title: Social Networking - A new kind of war - Propaganda at its worst
Post by: jone on April 11, 2014, 09:07:44 AM
If you really are interested in seeing hatred online, go on to Odnoklassniki or VKontakte.  On there you'd think being Ukrainian was a disease to be wiped off the face of the earth.

Imagine all of the women in the United States going on FaceBook every day and telling what sluts the women from Canada were.  Now you get the picture.   

It is as if to say, 'We share the same culture, and most of us share the same language, but we're better than you'.  It is getting to the point where it is reprehensible.

I see a dim vision, becoming brighter.  Shades of the master race. I've invited a couple of my Ukrainian friends to come on here and share their experiences, but most of them are too grief stricken to even comprehend what is being done to them.  These were former friends that are assaulting them.

One writes this:

Сейчас идет первая в истории Русско-Украинская интернет война. Убитых нет, но много раненых в голову.

It translates literally into:  Now, for the first time in history, a Russian-Ukrainian internet war begins.  While there are not yet any killed, many are wounded in the head (and heart).

Hate is such a bad thing.  Especially artificially created hate which we are seeing in abundance.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 11, 2014, 09:20:15 AM
Billy, you are right. I mostly agree, except I do not think the West adjusted well to the new Russia. In terms of defensive protection, Ukraine has depended on 1994's Budapest Memorandum- now a meaningless document. Ukraine has needed protection from the West, while the West placed them in the same basket as Russia, not to be trusted. How much can you trust a Yanukovych government? Here are a few opinions from actual Ukrainians:
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/vox-populi/vox-populi-with-iryna-yeroshko-what-should-the-government-do-to-stop-separatists-in-eastern-ukraine-342960.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 11, 2014, 09:37:18 AM
This time lapse movie shows us that the revolution was not a small group of Banderites, but the general population who demand a new government.

http://vimeo.com/82306393 (http://vimeo.com/82306393)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 11, 2014, 09:48:02 AM
The US Response to Russia's statements about Ukraine:
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/03/05/setting-the-record-straight-on-ukraine-march-4-2014-embassy-of-the-united-states-moscow-2/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 03:21:55 PM
Damn, I thought for sure I was going to win :'(

 It is important for couples  to have common interests. Since you both hate USA......I think you will do fine :welcome:

You sound too pompous and that's funny. It is important for couples to have common interests as well as have some brains also. Yes, Ukrainians are free, Russians are slaves, we can not express our opinion not because we have more important things to do, because it was banned. They can, so they are thrown dill on maidan square.  :D
Title: Re: Social Networking - A new kind of war - Propaganda at its worst
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 03:25:13 PM
Ñåé÷àñ èäåò ïåðâàÿ â èñòîðèè Ðóññêî-Óêðàèíñêàÿ èíòåðíåò âîéíà. Óáèòûõ íåò, íî ìíîãî ðàíåíûõ â ãîëîâó.

It translates literally into:  Now, for the first time in history, a Russian-Ukrainian internet war begins.  While there are not yet any killed, many are wounded in the head (and heart).

Hate is such a bad thing.  Especially artificially created hate which we are seeing in abundance.

Êðàòêèå èòîãè ðóññêî-óêðàèíñêîé âîéíû: Ðîññèÿ íà âîéíó íå ÿâèëàñü.

Summary results of Russian-Ukrainian war: Russia did not come at war.

And I never see posters "Ukrainians to the gallows" here.
Title: Re: Social Networking - A new kind of war - Propaganda at its worst
Post by: jone on April 11, 2014, 03:44:43 PM
Êðàòêèå èòîãè ðóññêî-óêðàèíñêîé âîéíû: Ðîññèÿ íà âîéíó íå ÿâèëàñü.

Summary results of Russian-Ukrainian war: Russia did not come at war.

And I never see posters "Ukrainians to the gallows" here.

I only write what I see on the internet.  I am entitled to my own opinion and observations.  Perhaps you have seen all the nice Russian ladies being nice to the Ukrainian ladies. 

Like you are?   ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 04:33:26 PM
I never promised to be nice to idiots. No matter of their nationality.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 11, 2014, 04:39:20 PM
I never promised to be nice to idiots. No matter of their nationality.

So, just so we all understand, you are calling the Ukrainian women idiots?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 06:33:45 PM
Again. hysteric and idiots have no nationality.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 11, 2014, 07:00:54 PM
I think she's being coy, like a young girl. 

Exactly who are you calling idiots, Whynotme? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 11, 2014, 07:10:57 PM
I think she's being coy, like a young girl. 

Exactly who are you calling idiots, Whynotme?

Well, anybody recognized himself?  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 11, 2014, 07:46:08 PM
Well, if you're calling me an idiot, I've been called worse.  And by you.     :rolleyes:

I was just hoping you would disavow all of the horrible things some of my Ukrainian friends have been experiencing on their social networks from women living in Russia.  Surely you don't think bad things about Ukrainian women.
Title: American Secret Service hunting down Russian citizens
Post by: BillyB on April 11, 2014, 07:58:06 PM

Russia's Foreign Ministry is warning that Russians should refrain from traveling abroad because they could be entrapped by US secret services who are actively "hunting" for Russians to persecute in punishment for Moscow's recent annexation of Crimea, according to an official notice published on the Ministry's website.


http://news.yahoo.com/russians-warned-abroad-us-might-snatch-them-162100712.html


Any Russians here that have access and read the Ministry's site to verify if it's true what is claimed to be posted there or is it the Western media writing propaganda?
Title: Re: American Secret Service hunting down Russian citizens
Post by: die_cast on April 11, 2014, 10:04:09 PM
Any Russians here that have access and read the Ministry's site to verify if it's true what is claimed to be posted there or is it the Western media writing propaganda?
It's true. We even have already a response.  :D
http://www.echo.msk.ru/blog/oreh/1298182-echo/
Quote
Я полностью исключаю вариант, что в здание МИД на Смоленской площади пустили веселящий газ, что дипломатов поразила чумка, дурка или какая-то иная вирусная инфекция. Также я полностью исключаю вариант, что у них на отрывном календаре до сих пор 1 апреля, а ответственный за переворачивание листочков в календаре захворал. Значит, нам рекомендуют отказаться от поездок за рубеж всерьез.

Но тем не менее, хочется уточнить. За рубежом опасность быть схваченными и доставленными в Америку для последующих измывательств грозит абсолютно всем россиянам? Грозит абсолютно в любой стране мира? Ну, потому что по данным Ростуризма с начала года россияне совершили 54 миллиона выездов за границу. Они уже планируют на лето поехать не только в Крым, но и в Турцию, Грецию, на Кипр – да много куда планируют, и не только летом. Господин Бут торговал оружием, господин Ярошенко перевозил наркотики. Но миллионы других россиян ничем подобным не занимаются, а просто загорают на пляжах или осматривают достопримечательности – либо едут за границу по служебным делам невинного характера.

Какие данным позволяют МИДу делать вывод, что американцы настолько там у себя в Штатах обалдели, что намерены ловить любого русского в любом месте безо всякого повода и потом тащить миллионы россиян к себе за океан, чтобы там посадить в свои тюрьмы. Я по-прежнему отвергаю версию чумки и веселящего газа, но мне это кажется каким-то чудным. Впрочем, не исключаю и очень простого объяснения. Это наш ассиметричный ответ на санкции. Русские туристы известны во всем мире. Нас за границей много, мы повсюду, мы веселые и щедрые ребята. Мы пьем и гуляем на все, мы тоннами скупаем поддельного Гуччи, Дольче и Габбану, да и настоящих скупаем тоже.

Если мы разом прислушаемся к рекомендациям МИДа и никуда не поедем, то создадим дикую прореху в доходах западной туриндустрии. А попутно еще и заполним Крым своими отдыхающими телами. Но есть одна загвоздка. Россияне – очень смелый народ. Мы ехали в Таиланд после цунами и весело улыбались на фоне жертв и разрушений. Когда исламисты громили музей в Каире, группы русских туристов рвались в этот музей с другого входа, потому что «у нас оплачено» и плевать мы хотели на этих исламистов. Нас не напугать никакими страшилками МИДа. А уж если американцы и захватят нас на турецком пляже и потащат к себе, мы ответим: отлично, давно хотели в Штаты слетать в отпуск – а тут само подвернулось: бесплатный перелет и питание. Клёво!
Title: Re: Social Networking - A new kind of war - Propaganda at its worst
Post by: die_cast on April 12, 2014, 12:45:06 AM
It is as if to say, 'We share the same culture, and most of us share the same language, but we're better than you'.  It is getting to the point where it is reprehensible.
That's how it always was between Russians and Ukrainians. Some days it was worse, some better... this is our national traditional way to entertain ourselves.  :D
Quote
Хохлосрач — термин, рожденный на udaff.com в разделе полит.сру, где любая статья на тему Украины гарантированно становилась каменторезкой. Фактически, для начала хохлосрача достаточно одного хохла, одного москаля и одного интернета.
Quote
Ранее наиболее популярной темой хохлосрача является тема «Как правильно писать: „на Украину“ или „в Украину“». 300 с лишним лет русские говорили «на Украину», но в 1993 самостийный президент придумал, что это ущемляет этим образом их права и попытался учить жену варить щи. Капитан Очевидность подсказывает, что правильней будет «в Изrаиль».
Quote
Примеры из классики
В неизучаемом в школе романе Тургенева «Рудин» (1855 год) есть персонаж по фамилии Пигасов, который в основном троллит на тему «женщина — недочеловек», но однажды:
«   

Вот мы толковали о литературе, — продолжал он, — если б у меня были лишние деньги, я бы сейчас сделался малороссийским поэтом. — Это что еще? хорош поэт! — возразила Дарья Михайловна, — разве вы знаете по-малороссийски? — Нимало; да оно и не нужно. — Как не нужно? — Да так же, не нужно. Стоит только взять лист бумаги и написать наверху: «Дума»; потом начать так: «Гой, ты доля моя, доля!» или: «Седе казачино Наливайко на кургане!», а там: «По-пид горою, по-пид зелено’ю, грае, грае воропае, гоп! гоп!» или что-нибудь в этом роде. И дело в шляпе. Печатай и издавай. Малоросс прочтет, подопрет рукою щеку и непременно заплачет, — такая чувствительная душа! — Помилуйте! — воскликнул Басистов. — Что вы это такое говорите? Это ни с чем не сообразно. Я жил в Малороссии, люблю ее и язык ее знаю… «грае, грае воропае» — совершенная бессмыслица. — Может быть, а хохол все-таки заплачет. Вы говорите: язык… Да разве существует малороссийский язык? Я попросил раз одного хохла перевести следующую, первую попавшуюся мне фразу: «Грамматика есть искусство правильно читать и писать». Знаете, как он это перевел: «Храматыка е выскусьтво правыльно чытаты ы пысаты…» Что ж, это язык, по-вашему? самостоятельный язык? Да скорей, чем с этим согласиться, я готов позволить лучшего своего друга истолочь в ступе…
   »
— «Рудин», И.С. Тургенев, 1855 г.
http://lurkmore.to/%F5%EE%F5%EB%EE%F1%F0%E0%F7

(http://lurkmore.so/images/thumb/8/8d/Mosk_mov.jpg/300px-Mosk_mov.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 10:57:38 AM
Nobody is saying that Russians are slaves. They're Slavs. Ha.
We are saying:
'Allow Ukrainians to be free. Do not invade Ukraine. Do not interfere in Ukraine's government or politics. do not lie about Ukraine.'

Whynotme, do you have any Ukrainian friends?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 11:20:54 AM
Billy, good post. Another example of crazy propaganda coming from the Kremlin. In Russia, the general population does NOT question authority. As a result, fear is fueled by the government and it is embraced by the general population. Ethnic hatred is a horrible thing and it's being fueled by the Kremlin. Recently I worked with business people from Russia, who wanted to learn about businesses in the US. An international organization brought people from China, Russia, and Scandinavia. For this group, there was a translator who spoke Russian and English. Most of her family still lives in Lviv, western Ukraine. She told me that she just had heated arguments with some of these Russian business people. They told her that they would be afraid to go to Lviv. She tried to tell them that things were calm in Lviv and that people there are friendly to Russians. She told them she invites them to her home in Lviv, but their reaction was that western Ukraine was a bunch of crazy terrorists. So firsthand, I recently saw the effects of lies and propaganda. The woman from Lviv was very upset and had to work with these people who were contemptuous. I acted friendly toward these Russian business people. Many of them were distrustful and ignored me, while some others were friendly. I got the impression that they had heard bad things about Americans.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 11:34:14 AM
 ‘Self-defense’ commander seizing Donetsk buildings comes from Tula, Russia (http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/11/self-defense-commander-seizing-donetsk-buildings-comes-from-tula-russia/)  Posted on April 11, 2014  by  chornajuravka (http://euromaidanpr.com/author/chornajuravka/)           4 (http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/11/self-defense-commander-seizing-donetsk-buildings-comes-from-tula-russia/#comments)
         
Russian News Service (RSN) put one of the “self-defense” commanders who seized the Donetsk administrative building on the air:

 -Can you present yourself?
 -Paramonov Pavel Vladimirovich
 -Are you a resident of Donetsk?
 -Of course not, I live in Yefremov, Tulska Oblast [Russia].
 -What are you doing in Donetsk?
 -Helping a fraternal people defend their rights.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on April 12, 2014, 03:35:10 PM
Here is a link to a funny story to stroke our Russian apologists.....       ;D

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/12/russian-tv-caught-red-handed-same-guy-same-demonstration-but-three-different-people-spy-bystander-heroic-surgeon/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 04:22:40 PM
Nobody is saying that Russians are slaves. They're Slavs. Ha.
We are saying:
'Allow Ukrainians to be free. Do not invade Ukraine. Do not interfere in Ukraine's government or politics. do not lie about Ukraine.'

Whynotme, do you have any Ukrainian friends?

I need not to have ukrainian friends having 7/8 ukrainian ancestry myself (1/7 is georgian). I'm Russian. So who are u to lecture me?  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 04:31:05 PM
This is called a discussion. You can tell me why you agree with me or why you do not. I am not lecturing you. You are not 6 years old. Tell us what you think about the situation in Ukraine. Or tell me why you disagree with me. Communicate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 04:31:14 PM
fake refugees from Crimea

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlpcIWtubJA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlpcIWtubJA)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 04:36:48 PM
This is called a discussion. You can tell me why you agree with me or why you do not. I am not lecturing you. You are not 6 years old. Tell us what you think about the situation in Ukraine. Or tell me why you disagree with me. Communicate.
Nobody needs the truth on that forum, it is a Russophobes meeting who listen themselves only and shed crocodile tears of the unfortunate ukrainians. Did u start that thread with the question? You started it from blaming Russia. It can't be called a discussion.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 04:38:52 PM
http://www.gazeta.lviv.ua/news/2014/03/22/25978 (http://www.gazeta.lviv.ua/news/2014/03/22/25978)

 Львівщина може прийняти 4000 втікачів із кримського півострова  (http://www.gazeta.lviv.ua/sites/default/files/imagecache/thnode/seh_0.jpg) (http://www.gazeta.lviv.ua/sites/default/files/seh_0.jpg)      фото: zik.ua  Зараз на Львівщині перебуває майже 2000 втікачів із Криму – здебільшого це кримські татари Однак зараз до нлих долучилисьт і українці та росіяни, які не хочуть жити під російською окупацією – про це сьогодні заявила голова Львівської обласної адміністрації Ірина Сех. За підрахунками її підлеглих область може прийняти ще близько 2000 біженців із автономії.
За словами Ірини Сех зараз область робить все можливе для того, щоб забезпечити максимально комфортне перебування втікачів з півострова в Галичині – для їх прийому відкрили санаторії, чимало людей розташовано в приватних помешканнях, так само оперативно вирішуються питання соціального захисту – виплати пенсій та допомоги на дітей, влаштування дітей у школи та садочки, лікування. Зрештою одна із кримських татарок уже тут народила доньку, ще кілька жінок перебувають на останньому місяці вагітності. Частина людей зараз намагається знайти тимчасову роботу – допомогу у цьому їм надає обласний центр зайнятості.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 04:41:25 PM
 Lviv welcomes refugees from Crimea  Posted on March 23, 2014  by  marquepro (http://euromaidanpr.com/author/marquepro/)        (http://www.skibbereeneagle.ie/web/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/crimea1.jpg)
According to the head of the Lviv Oblast Administration Iryna Sekh, some 2000 refugees from Crimea, mostly Crimean Tatars, are currently in the Lviv area, reports gazeta.lviv, on March 22.  They have been joined by a number of ethnic Ukrainians and Russians who do not wish to live under Russian occupation.  Sekh estimates that the oblast can accommodate an additional 2,000 refugees.
Sekh says the oblast is doing everything possible to ensure a comfortable stay for the refugees in Galicia.  Sanatoriums have been opened to accommodate them and many people have been placed in private homes. Social welfare issues also are being addressed effectively, including pensions payments, child benefits, medical care and the placement of children in schools and kindergartens, she explained. Recently, a Tatar refugee gave birth to a daughter here and several other women are in the last month of pregnancy. A number of the refugees are also trying to find temporary work with the help of the regional employment center, she said.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 04:44:14 PM
Crimean Tatars: we are afraid to lose our homeland again   (http://www.uznews.net/con_images/iu/t/610x385/1/11053.jpg) A Crimean Tatar family at a wellness spa near Kiev. Many years ago their family members were deported to Uzbekistan © Golos Ukrainy Among Crimean Tatars who are choosing to leave Crimea after the annexation of the peninsula by Russia are some who were born in Uzbekistan, but do not wish to be called refugees. 
 
 By Inna Najdenko
 
 The citizens of Ukraine who are leaving Crimea ask not to be identified as refugees; they consider their homeland to be not just Crimea but Ukraine at large and they have no plans of actually leaving the country.
 
 “Officially the Ukrainian language and Ukrainian symbols are not banned in Crimea,” says Sergey from Sevastopol, who has just moved with his wife and two children, a three- and five-year-old, to Kiev. “However it can be dangerous to speak in Ukrainian there at the moment so we decided to leave.” 
 
 Grigoriy, the father of another Sevastopol family who chose to come to Kiev, describes the situation in the peninsula:
 
 “No one is murdering anyone in Crimea, no, there is none of that. But there is hatred and aggression there; passersby can insult you on the street. Even if they are your relatives or friends. If you do not share their point of view – you are the enemy and you are hated.
 
 At the same time, some strangers in Kiev have made arrangements for us to safely leave Crimea; they are currently helping us to find a place to live.”
 
 Moving to Kiev and to Western Ukraine

 
 Crimean families started coming to the Ukrainian mainland on March 10. According to official statistics, as of March 25 about four thousand people have moved.
 
 More than half of them are finding opportunities to settle down in Western Ukraine, specifically in Lvov and Ivano-Frankovo provinces. 
 
RELATED TOPICSUzbek parliament calls on restraint in Ukraine (http://www.uznews.net/en/politics/25896-uzbek-parliament-calls-on-restraint-in-ukraine) 11.04.14
Uzbek Crimean Tatars fear for their people  (http://www.uznews.net/en/society/25571-uzbek-crimean-tatars-fear-for-their-people) 20.03.14
Situation in Crimea: will Crimea Tatars’ bet pay off?  (http://www.uznews.net/en/world/25537-situation-in-crimea-will-crimea-tatars%E2%80%99-bet-pay-off) 18.03.14
Thanks to Maidan, people from NIS can become Russian citizens (http://www.uznews.net/en/world/25401-thanks-to-maidan-people-from-nis-can-become-russian-citizens) 07.03.14
Vladimir Putin curbs his zeal in Ukraine (http://www.uznews.net/en/world/25373-vladimir-putin-curbs-his-zeal-in-ukraine) 05.03.14
Uzbekistan expresses support for Ukraine’s sovereignty  (http://www.uznews.net/en/world/25372-uzbekistan-expresses-support-for-ukraine%E2%80%99s-sovereignty) 05.03.14 On Monday, March 24, Mustafa Jemilev, the head of the Crimean Tatar Mejzhlis (self-organizing political body), announced that five thousand Crimean Tatars had left the peninsula. The final numbers would largely depend on the treatment of refugees by the Ukrainian authorities.   
 
 At the same time, he was careful to underscore that his people has no intention of leaving their traditional homeland. Crimea is home to about 300,000 ethnic Tatars.
 
 First helped by volunteers, then by the authorities

 
 The discrepancies between the two current estimates of the numbers of refugees – four or five thousand – can be explained by the fact that many families do not turn to the government for help; rather they are aided by their friends, family members, and volunteers.
 
 As a matter of fact, in the early days it was only the volunteers who tried to assist potential refugees and who organized support groups on various social networks.
 
 Since March 24 this question is also being dealt with by the Ukrainian interim government: the new arrivals are offered shelter and assistance with filling out applications for government subsidies.
 
 The central train station in Kiev welcomes trains from Crimea with hourly information on where the refugees can turn to for help.
 
 A 24-hour help center has been setup in Kiev to help the new arrivals as well as a telephone helpline.
 
 “We help anyone who has a Crimean residency permit,” says Svetlana Nazarenko, deputy director of the Kiev social services administration. “In addition to the most urgent needs – finding shelter, renewing passports, and providing social subsidies – we also assist in finding work and getting children into kindergartens.” 
 
 183 people registered with her center as of March 26.
 
 “We will return to Crimea from Uzbekistan”
 

 Last Sunday about 60 residents of Crimea have settled into the temporary accommodation at a wellness spa outside of Kiev.
 
 They are mostly women with children and the elderly. And only four out of eighteen families there are Crimean Tatars, the rest are Ukrainian.
 
 In the few days since their arrival they have been visited by dozens of journalists. They are tired by all the attention.
 
 As a group they come across as reserved and reluctant to talk too much, refusing to be photographed or to provide their names from fear of retribution from the Crimean mainstream towards their husbands and sons whom they have left behind. 
 
 A retiree, Gulnara Izetovna, came to Kiev from Evpatoriya with her daughter Elmaz, her son-in-law Osman and two young grandchildren.
 
 “My husband and older son stayed behind to watch over our house. It took us twenty years to build, we have just registered everything and now this!
  (http://www.uznews.net/con_images/iu/t/610x385/1/11054.jpg) Elzara with a small son was sent to Kiev by her husband © ICTV
 It’s very sad that our parents lost their homeland during the deportation. It seems we are facing a similar destiny. I was born and raised in Uzbekistan. My mother always said that Crimea is our homeland and we will definitely come back there …” 
 
 Gulnara also says that no one threatened them directly in Crimea but the atmosphere of alarm and the presence of so many military forces on the streets was very concerning and depressing. 
 
 Gulnara’s entire family consists of medics. She herself was a paramedic before she had retired, her daughter used to be a nurse and is currently a cosmetologist, he son-in-law is a obstetrician and gynecologist.
 
 Osman says that he was forced to quit his job: public employees have been asked to resign and then are re-hired with Russian contracts.
 
 Valeriy and his wife came from Kerch where they had lived for thirty years where he was a director at the Philharmonic. They say they only took their passports and some clothes with them. They were not able to take money out of their bank accounts – the funds have been frozen. They already turned to the social security administration in Kiev hoping to start receiving their pension payments. 
 
 Elzara and her two-year-old son Sajran were sent to the Ukraine mainland by her husband.
 
 “He told me to go, it’s calmer here,” says Elzara.
 
 When asked how she prepares their food she says the spa has allowed them access to its kitchen.
 
 Very modest living conditions

 
 Since Tuesday the refugees have been offered prepared meals three times a day. The local cooks, keeping in mind possible dietary restrictions of the Muslim faith, make special dishes. 
 
 The wellness spa where the refugees have been temporarily housed belongs to the state and has not been renovated for a long time; the furniture is shabby and electric plugs are barely functioning. Each room has, however, its own bathroom and shower, where everything while old is still functional.
 
 Kiev residents have brought a lot of food (a ten-day supply according to the director), clothes, cleaning supplies, tea pots, toys and books for children to the refugees living at the spa. People even donated a television set, a fridge, and collected money to buy a washing machine.
 
 “They are considered traitors …“

 
It’s very sad that our parents lost their homeland during the deportation. It seems we are facing a similar destiny. Gulnara Izetovna, a Crimean Tatar woman If Oldrich Andrysek, the regional representative of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), is to be believed those who have left Crimea have started to receive threats by SMS and on social networks.
 
 “They are called traitors and are promised punishment when they return home,” says Oldrich Andrysek, “They houses get marked by secret signs. That is why people are afraid to be photographed and to give interviews.”
 
 It is also known that 32 Crimean Tatars were received by Poland when they petitioned for a political asylum.
 
 According to the Ukrainian border patrol who have interacted with this group of refugees, they were persecuted by the new authorities in Crimea for helping the Ukrainian military.
 
 Crimean authorizes also report on refugees

 
 Rustam Temirgaliev, the self-proclaimed deputy prime-minister of Crimea, told Russian ITAR-TASS that about 200 refugees from Ukraine are coming to Crimea every day. He says the total number so far is several thousand.
 
 At the same time, the Russian government has asked Ukrainian citizens living in Crimea without a residency permit to leave the peninsula by April 19.
 
 Both the Ukrainian and Russian Ministry of Education have made suggestions to consider applications from Crimean students without the necessary paperwork.
 
 Regardless of one’s political preferences and convictions most of Crimean residents are affected by the transition.
 
 Receiving social payments, withdrawing money, registering one’s marriage or divorce, birth or death, applying for any kind of property ownership documents, or obtaining a court ruling is a problem all over the recently annexed area as  most of the Ukrainian laws are not longer applicable and Russian ones are not being enforced yet.
 
 Inna Najdenko in Kiev for Uznews.net               
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 04:55:28 PM
Wrong place for starting Propaganda war at a Russophobes forum. There will be a full agreement. So go on, if you have nothing usefull to do   :clapping:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Dewed on April 12, 2014, 04:56:03 PM
You do realize you are pasting in entire news stories, including their copy-right notices right?   A link to stories you find insightful would suffice while preventing you and this site from committing the crime or piracy.









Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 12, 2014, 04:57:35 PM
Nobody needs the truth on that forum, it is a Russophobes meeting who listen themselves only and shed crocodile tears of the unfortunate ukrainians. Did u start that thread with the question? You started it from blaming Russia. It can't be called a discussion.


Strange how they claim to love Russian women but always take the side of America and it's propaganda machine in every conflict. In my opinion they love only the advantage they have with their still strong dollar and blue passport to find a hotter, much hotter and younger Natasha than what they could manage back home. Sad that they claim to love their Natasha but spur everything about her background to the point of refusing to examine the Russian side of things in a balanced and fair manner? Example has anyone here tried to justify our own nation's (America) self interests in bombing the hell out of every Middle East country who didn't want to be dominated by the US? For example Libya and NATO 's bomb attacks that killed 10's of thousands of civilians. Or the US arming Al Qaeda in Syria while these Muslims exterminate Christains and Jews that have been living in peace for 2000 years?!. Yet Putin is such a bad guy because 97% of Crimeans voted to join him.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 05:02:33 PM
What is the side of America? That there actually are refugees from Crimea? Not just 'fake' refugees? What do Russians want? As an American, I am happy that a corrupt dictator in Kyiv was thrown out. Are Russians unhappy about that? What makes Russians happy? What do they want? Is it a secret? Please do tell.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 12, 2014, 05:33:34 PM
Maxx,

I don't think that there is anything against the Russian people.  (Possible present company excluded.)  Some of my best friends are Russians.  I did business there for over ten years.   I just have a soft spot in my heart for the underdog.  If someone is getting the sh&t beat out of them, I feel very sad.  That is what is happening right now as Russia is trying to make a client state out of Ukraine.

I don't know how many friends you have in Ukraine, but if you talk to them, they are scared beyond belief.  Put yourself in their shoes.  The average Ukrainian did NOT participate in Maidan.  The average Ukrainian is NOT participating in the ongoing stirred up mess in Eastern Ukraine. 

One of my friends told me the other day that he feels like it is 1939 and Ukraine is awaiting the blitzkrieg. 

Whynotme is stridently opinionated.  She has said many negative things about the United States on this forum and others.  Yet she is engaged to a man from the United States.  For me, it is very difficult to understand. 

Now she labels this whole forum as Russophobe.  While I oppose her and her comments against Ukrainians, I love the Russian people.  I always have.  It caused me to learn Russian in college when it was not a popular thing to do.  It caused me to do business there when everyone was losing their shirts.  Were this anything other than Russia picking on Ukraine, I would be on the side of Russia.  But I cannot understand the vitriolic dialogue I see here and on the social networking sites, slamming Ukrainians with the official Kremlin line of thought.

Whynotme, you claim to be of Ukrainian heritage, but you have had not one nice thing to say about them since you were on this forum - or the other.  To me, that does not speak of kindness of these wonderful people, simply disdain.   

Maxx, I am on record as saying that the United States should not be a participant in what is happening in Ukraine.  But here, on this forum, where we talk about meaningful relationships with FSUW, it is hard to understand hatred between two wonderful peoples, the Russians towards the Ukrainians.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on April 12, 2014, 06:15:16 PM
I need not to have ukrainian friends having 7/8 ukrainian ancestry myself (1/7 is georgian). I'm Russian. So who are u to lecture me?  ;D

7/8 = 87.5%
1/7 = 14.28%
         ---------
Total  101.78%

Hey whynotme, you have too much DNA in your genetic composition!!!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2014, 06:29:05 PM

Maxx, I am on record as saying that the United States should not be a participant in what is happening in Ukraine. 
You are also on record as saying this:


Russia is not there to have military exercises, they are their to intimidate and probably invade.  Frankly, it makes me want to call my Congressman and have the US do a little intimidation of our own.  Maybe put two or three divisions in Latvia.  Do military exercises there with drones and field hospitals and armored columns.  Big enough to reach Moscow.  Accompanied by the stealth weapons that your country has no idea how to defend against. 


I don't think it would EVER be a good idea to try to intimidate Russia in it's own backyard.  We would be bluffing and they would call it and then we would have to back down. 
We are not going to be willing to go the distance and I think the Russians will.  Bluffing is a good move if you are not likely to get called. 
[size=78%]  [/size]

Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 12, 2014, 06:47:14 PM
FatherTime,

Do you understand the word 'hyperbole' or is that out of your league?

You must be still smarting from that slap down from missA today.  Incidentally, she is a 'REAL' Ukrainian.

Tell us again about your 'Win/Win' philosophy.  We're all waiting for your latest spin!   :deadhorse:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 12, 2014, 06:51:34 PM
Maxx,

I don't think that there is anything against the Russian people.  (Possible present company excluded.)  Some of my best friends are Russians.  I did business there for over ten years.   I just have a soft spot in my heart for the underdog.  If someone is getting the sh&t beat out of them, I feel very sad.  That is what is happening right now as Russia is trying to make a client state out of Ukraine.

I don't know how many friends you have in Ukraine, but if you talk to them, they are scared beyond belief.  Put yourself in their shoes.  The average Ukrainian did NOT participate in Maidan.  The average Ukrainian is NOT participating in the ongoing stirred up mess in Eastern Ukraine. 

One of my friends told me the other day that he feels like it is 1939 and Ukraine is awaiting the blitzkrieg. 

Whynotme is stridently opinionated.  She has said many negative things about the United States on this forum and others.  Yet she is engaged to a man from the United States.  For me, it is very difficult to understand. 

Now she labels this whole forum as Russophobe.  While I oppose her and her comments against Ukrainians, I love the Russian people.  I always have.  It caused me to learn Russian in college when it was not a popular thing to do.  It caused me to do business there when everyone was losing their shirts.  Were this anything other than Russia picking on Ukraine, I would be on the side of Russia.  But I cannot understand the vitriolic dialogue I see here and on the social networking sites, slamming Ukrainians with the official Kremlin line of thought.

Whynotme, you claim to be of Ukrainian heritage, but you have had not one nice thing to say about them since you were on this forum - or the other.  To me, that does not speak of kindness of these wonderful people, simply disdain.   

Maxx, I am on record as saying that the United States should not be a participant in what is happening in Ukraine.  But here, on this forum, where we talk about meaningful relationships with FSUW, it is hard to understand hatred between two wonderful peoples, the Russians towards the Ukrainians.


One thing I have learned on posting on these forums (RWD,RWG,RUA) for the past 13 years is that I post best in the morning. Peace everyone. Zaftra ohtrum
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2014, 08:00:56 PM
FatherTime,

Do you understand the word 'hyperbole' or is that out of your league?
 
Yeah, you say that now. You like to play both sides though so I don't believe you.

FatherTime,
 

You must be still smarting from that slap down from missA today.  Incidentally, she is a 'REAL' Ukrainian.

Tell us again about your 'Win/Win' philosophy.  We're all waiting for your latest spin!   :deadhorse:
[/size]
[/size][size=78%] [/size]
If you consider anything here a ‘slap down’ then you need to get out more, as I’ve told you before.  Let me check, I seem to be just fine.   
 
I’ve already explained what I’d consider a win/win numerous times…if you are too dense to get it, I can’t help you.  That is not say it has happened that way just yet, but it still could….boy will you be upset though…   Meanwhile you sit poised for your invasion, which still hasn't happened.  Are you going to tell us more about your ‘sincere love’ for the Russian people?   It sounds like bologna.


Fathertime!     
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 12, 2014, 08:04:18 PM
This is called a discussion. bla-bla-bla. Communicate.
Ok, let's start the discussion.

Do you realize what this forum is about?
What is the purpose of your presence on this forum?
What is the purpose of questions you are asking?
Do you realize that none of us is Mr. Putin?
Are you Ukrainian?
Are you Russian?
What you personally have to do with Russian-Ukrainian cause?
If you are not Ukrainian and not Russian, may be you are a journalist?
Are you collecting information for an article?
If you are not a journalist who is collecting information for his articles in wrong place, may be your are a troll?
Or may be you are a spammer?

Now. Communicate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 08:06:39 PM
7/8 = 87.5%
1/7 = 14.28%
         ---------
Total  101.78%

Hey whynotme, you have too much DNA in your genetic composition!!!

You never do typing mistakes? 1/8
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 12, 2014, 09:06:29 PM

Ok, let's start the discussion.

Do you realize what this forum is about?
  Yes, and there is a section for talking about politics. If you know of a better place, let me know.

What is the purpose of your presence on this forum?
   In the past, I was here for info about K-1 visa, and for making friends who could give me insights into forming a relationship with a Ukrainian woman. I wanted to learn all about Ukrainians and Russians. Actually I am still interested in that.

What is the purpose of questions you are asking?
   It looks like Ukraine will be invaded. I have close friends there. My ex-fiancee is still there. My questions are all about getting inside the Russian mind(s). I would like to discover their perspective on what Putin is doing. Here in the USA, we often argue and discuss politics. We often question the actions of our politicians. It is normal for us to ask, "Why is Obama doing such and such?" When the Russian military gathers all along the border of Ukraine and calls the new government 'terrorists', it worries me and my close friends in Ukraine. I think it is only natural to wonder what Russian citizens are thinking.
 
Do you realize that none of us is Mr. Putin?
   Yes, of course. Do you realize that it is interesting to know what a Russian citizen thinks about world events, Ukraine, and what your President is doing?

Are you Ukrainian?
Are you Russian?
   I grew up on Long Island, New York, USA. I live in Arizona. I've been to Kyiv twice.

What you personally have to do with Russian-Ukrainian cause?
  Like I said, I have close friends in Ukraine and also know Russians and Ukrainians who have moved to the USA. I also have a friend who just flew home to Simferopol.

If you are not Ukrainian and not Russian, may be you are a journalist?
   No, I am a motorcoach driver, and also a musician.

Are you collecting information for an article?
   No, most of the information I get about Russians in Russia, comes from the Russian News Service, so I thought it would be a good idea to get a more accurate picture from Russian individuals. What do Russians want?

I have discovered over the years that all people want the same thing:
prosperity and good health, decent food and clothing, a nice place to live, and an interesting job. I think communication is a good thing and feel free to answer your own questions for me, and, if you'd like, ask me more questions.

If you are not a journalist who is collecting information for his articles in wrong place, may be your are a troll?
   No, actually, I found this place when I was searching for a possible wife over in Ukraine or Russia.
Or may be you are a spammer? No, I have a sincere desire to learn.

Now. Communicate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 09:21:13 PM
Maxx,

I don't think that there is anything against the Russian people.  (Possible present company excluded.)  Some of my best friends are Russians.  I did business there for over ten years.   I just have a soft spot in my heart for the underdog.  If someone is getting the sh&t beat out of them, I feel very sad.  That is what is happening right now as Russia is trying to make a client state out of Ukraine.

I don't know how many friends you have in Ukraine, but if you talk to them, they are scared beyond belief.  Put yourself in their shoes.  The average Ukrainian did NOT participate in Maidan.  The average Ukrainian is NOT participating in the ongoing stirred up mess in Eastern Ukraine. 

One of my friends told me the other day that he feels like it is 1939 and Ukraine is awaiting the blitzkrieg. 

Whynotme is stridently opinionated.  She has said many negative things about the United States on this forum and others.  Yet she is engaged to a man from the United States.  For me, it is very difficult to understand. 

Now she labels this whole forum as Russophobe.  While I oppose her and her comments against Ukrainians, I love the Russian people.  I always have.  It caused me to learn Russian in college when it was not a popular thing to do.  It caused me to do business there when everyone was losing their shirts.  Were this anything other than Russia picking on Ukraine, I would be on the side of Russia.  But I cannot understand the vitriolic dialogue I see here and on the social networking sites, slamming Ukrainians with the official Kremlin line of thought.

Whynotme, you claim to be of Ukrainian heritage, but you have had not one nice thing to say about them since you were on this forum - or the other.  To me, that does not speak of kindness of these wonderful people, simply disdain.   

Maxx, I am on record as saying that the United States should not be a participant in what is happening in Ukraine.  But here, on this forum, where we talk about meaningful relationships with FSUW, it is hard to understand hatred between two wonderful peoples, the Russians towards the Ukrainians.

At first, all hate to Americans, Ukrainians and tec. u are trying to blame me in exists in your imagination only.
At second. Long ago I asked u not to mention my american fiancee in ur posts. My personal life in not ur business. But seems all ur comments turn into clarification of personal relationships.
At third. Hypocrites is behavior covered insincerity malice by feigned sincerity and virtue. It is what I see in ur posts.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 12, 2014, 09:42:56 PM

What is the purpose of questions you are asking?
   It looks like Ukraine will be invaded. I have close friends there. My ex-fiancee is still there. My questions are all about getting inside the Russian mind(s). I would like to discover their perspective on what Putin is doing. Here in the USA, we often argue and discuss politics. We often question the actions of our politicians. It is normal for us to ask, "Why is Obama doing such and such?" When the Russian military gathers all along the border of Ukraine and calls the new government 'terrorists', it worries me and my close friends in Ukraine. I think it is only natural to wonder what Russian citizens are thinking.
 
Do you realize that none of us is Mr. Putin?
   Yes, of course. Do you realize that it is interesting to know what a Russian citizen thinks about world events, Ukraine, and what your President is doing?

You may ask all questions u have to Putin directly here.

http://www.moskva-putinu.ru/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 12, 2014, 10:37:51 PM
Photo Guy,
Why do you think that RWD is a good place to get inside the Russian mind?
What prevent you from reading those threads about Ukraine/Russia cause, which we already have on RWD? Don't you think you can find there many answers to your questions?
Can you tell us, why Ukraine is of interest to USA?
Do you question the actions of your politicians in Ukraine?
Why don't you use other sources about Russians in Russia except Russian News service?
What sources do you use to learn more about Ukrainians in Ukraine?
Are you able to separate real news from ridiculous propaganda (both Russian and Ukrainian)?
Did the life of your Ukrainian friends improve since "corrupt dictator was thrown out"?
What makes you think that Ukraine will be invaded?
What do you think about Hungarian wish of Transcarpathia's annexion? (Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast)
Do you understand that Ukraine is a bankrupt already and a part of Ukrainian population doesn't support current goverment?
Why people who were fighting on Maidan they call "heroes", but people who are protesting in South-Eastern Ukraine - "terrorists"?
What do you think about statements like "Galicia, listen. Let's divorce" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAlyrQaBaBk), which comes from Ukrainian citizens in Donbass area?

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 12, 2014, 10:52:05 PM
At first, all hate to Americans, Ukrainians and tec. u are trying to blame me in exists in your imagination only.
At second. Long ago I asked u not to mention my american fiancee in ur posts. My personal life in not ur business. But seems all ur comments turn into clarification of personal relationships.
At third. Hypocrites is behavior covered insincerity malice by feigned sincerity and virtue. It is what I see in ur posts.

You are your usual charming self.

First of all, I was the one who welcomed you here on this forum.  You rubbed my nose in it like a dog you are trying punish for making a mess on the floor.   It was evident that you had no desire to find a middle ground or even acknowledge anyone who had opinions other than those which you were trying to promote.  That opinion is that the Kyiv Bandits were reprehensible.

Second, you are the one who has repeatedly brought up your fiancee.  I will be happy to repeat those posts if you cannot remember.  But, obviously, you were bringing up him when you said that he thinks all US politicians are criminals only yesterday.   Third, let me make this perfectly clear, their is nothing insincere or feigned regarding my opinion of you.  I consider your anger towards Americans, always on display, as disdainful. 

If we are talking about your anger towards Ukrainians, let me bring up your attempt to smear the Maidan protesters with the Nazi collaboration and Stepan Bandera.    You brought it up multiple times even showing pictures of atrocities that happened seventy years ago.  I'm certain that you wouldn't bring up pictures of the Holodomor, as that is an atrocity that was committed on the Ukrainian people from Russian leadership in the 1920s and 30s.   

You have constantly pointed, as of yesterday, again, that Kyiv is faking the truth and Russia is telling it.  People constantly have to counter your arguments.  Then, when they do so, you insult them, as you did me last night.

Now, I will post all of these quotes in succession if you continue to dispute them. 

I will tell you, I have no virtue.  I have pragmatism.  Tonight, it was my pleasure to entertain two people from Petersburg and one from Perm.  We had a wonderful dinner out and these people are guests in my home for the night.   We do not talk about what Russia is doing to Ukraine.  Most Russians I respect.  We laugh, we talk, we speak, mostly in Russian.

If you do not want to be continued to be called out for your abuse, both of Ukrainians and Americans, stop doing it.  Then no one will have to.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 12, 2014, 11:18:35 PM
At first, all hate to Americans, Ukrainians and tec. u are trying to blame me in exists in your imagination only.
At second. Long ago I asked u not to mention my american fiancee in ur posts. My personal life in not ur business. But seems all ur comments turn into clarification of personal relationships.
At third. Hypocrites is behavior covered insincerity malice by feigned sincerity and virtue. It is what I see in ur posts.


Hey  beware, Jone has shown that he will just make up ‘facts’ about a person on the forum.  He insists I demanded an apology from a Russian woman, but never put up a shred of evidence when challenged. 
 
I have to agree all the ‘love’ that he insisted he has seems phony as hell….he is constantly attempting to build his ‘creds’ and act important.  After the 50th time it starts to come off as insecure.






You have constantly pointed, as of yesterday, again, that Kyiv is faking the truth and Russia is telling it. People constantly have to counter your arguments.  Then, when they do so, you insult them, as you did me last night.
 

Why would you whine and expect any less given you attempt to do the same thing?


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on April 12, 2014, 11:49:47 PM

Hey  beware, Jone has shown that he will just make up ‘facts’ about a person on the forum.  He insists I demanded an apology from a Russian woman, but never put up a shred of evidence when challenged. 
 
I have to agree all the ‘love’ that he insisted he has seems phony as hell….he is constantly attempting to build his ‘creds’ and act important.  After the 50th time it starts to come off as insecure.




Why would you whine and expect any less given you attempt to do the same thing?


Fathertime!   

FatherTime,

You don't even know what the Holodomor is without looking it up on Wikipedia. 

Tell us again how everything is going to be a WIN for Ukraine.   The man with great depths of knowledge. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 13, 2014, 12:36:11 AM
What do Russians want? As an American, I am happy that a corrupt dictator in Kyiv was thrown out. Are Russians unhappy about that? What makes Russians happy? What do they want? Is it a secret? Please do tell.

Though I feel you're overloaded with one-side propaganda I'll try to express my point of view. Well, not just mine, actually.

Yanukovich was not a dictator. He was a liberal in comparison with Timoshenko, and his behavior during protests confirms my claim. Corrupted, yes, but not more corrupted than Timoshenko and her company in power. I red acknowledgment from a russian businessman, he was supprised that now illegal business goes smoothly in Kiev because bribe size is down, rate is firm and corrupt officials lost fear because there are nobody who could control them in current situation. But of course new rulers try to picture Yanukovich as a bloody dictator, hah. :)

   Why Yanikovich was overthrown. It was not a social conflict, it was an ethno-political conflict that reflects deep antagonisms in Ukrainian society. Only 12% of Kievans took part in Euromaidan at final stage, mostly rioters were from West of Ukraine. They can't accept Yanukovich because view him as a pro-Russian guy. Rival political clans united around Timoshenko clan (in other words: Dnepropetrovsk clan) to use discontent of west-ukrainians against Yanukovich. Timoshenko's team brings nationalism slogans to control rioters and send them in attack against legally elected president. On surface we hear the agenda of fight against corruption, eurointegration, nationalism, patriotism.
   OK, now down to Russia. Russia is unhappy with coup because new rulers will draw Ukraine in anti-Russian camp. USA is happy with coup because new rulers are under their full control.  So the conflict is not Russia vs Ukraine, the conflict is rather USA vs Russia at territory of Ukraine.
  Russia wants friendly state, economically stable partner at her borders. Isn't that simple?

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/wesservic/36941460/97438/97438_original.gif)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on April 13, 2014, 12:36:58 AM
'Allow Ukrainians to be free. Do not invade Ukraine. Do not interfere in Ukraine's government or politics. do not lie about Ukraine.'


Yeah about that lying. The worst thing that could happen to the US, EU or Russia for that matter is to "Win" the Ukraine. What does anyone win? A trashed out Ukraine? I can just picture Obama trying to tell the US why we're going to spend a Trillion $ to fix Ukraine when our economy is so screwed. The EU is in the same boat. Nato doesn't want them either. Obama needs to back off the rhetoric. Russia is the the only country with any interest in the area.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 13, 2014, 03:27:59 AM
You are your usual charming self.
First of all, I was the one who welcomed you here on this forum. 
So what? I have to be eternally grateful for that? Unlike you, nobody can blame me in hypocrisy. Why should I find some middle ground, if my opinion is clearly and definitely. Actually, I'm listening Israels info.
http://www.iton-tv.com/art/3926/Izrailskij-razvedchik-Yakov-Kedmi-Vtorzhenie-pochti-neizbezhno/ (http://www.iton-tv.com/art/3926/Izrailskij-razvedchik-Yakov-Kedmi-Vtorzhenie-pochti-neizbezhno/)
Hard to fault the Jews to be Putins spies. This interview have to be listened, I doubt that you will be able.
You feel offended by historical facts? I have nothing to do with that.
You're trying to argue that there was no Volyn massacre? Do u try to refute Bandera is the national hero of kievs junta? 20 years of brainwashing Ukrainians have done its job, the image of Russia as an external enemy was formed. We have a common history, in the 30th people froze like flies not only in Ukraine, but in the Volga region too. Dekulakize people was across all country, my mom's family, for example. Father's family was exiled to eastern Kazakhstan and my grandfather spent 15 years in the Gulag.
I will not translate in English opinion of one Jew (my friend) from odnoclassniki. If you know Russian as well as u are boasting u'll be able to translate.
Âîîáùå îíà ñàìà ïðèçíàåò, ÷òî áîëüøèíñòâî ïðîãîëîñîâàëî çà ïðèñîåäèíåíèå Êðûìà ê ÐÔ, òàê î ÷åì ñûð-áîð?!
 òîì, ÷òî Ïóòèí íå ïðîãíóëñÿ êàê îáû÷íî, à âñåõ ñäåëàë, ïðè÷åì âòîðîé ðàç ïîäðÿä ïîñëå îòìåíû áîìáåæåê Ñèðèè. Îòæàë ñòðàòåãè÷åñêóþ òåððèòîðèþ ïîä øóìîê. Ýòî îáèäíî äëÿ êîíêóðåíòîâ, çàìåøàíî íà íåïðèÿçíè ê Ðîññèè. Íå òîëüêî áèçíåñ, ìíîãî ëè÷íîãî .
×òîáû ïîíÿòü ëþäåé â ÐÔ, íàäî òàì ïîæèòü. Îíè ãîòîâû ïåðåæèòü ëþáûå ñàíêöèè, ýòî òîëüêî ðàñêðóòèò ìåñòíîå ïðîèçâîäñòâî, ãîòîâû îòêàçàòüñÿ îò ïîåçäîê çà ãðàíèöó, èì åñòü ãäå îòäûõàòü è â Ðîññèè. Îíè êëàëè íà âñå ëèöåíçèè ñîôòà, â ñàìûõ êðûïíûõ êîìïàíèÿõ íà ñåòåâûõ ðåñóðñàõ ìîæíî íàéòè ëþáîé ñîôò ñ ïàïêîé "êðÿê" âíóòðè. Îíè ïåðåæèëè 90ûå, à ñåé÷àñ âñå ñîâñåì ïî-äðóãîìó. Ïðîáëåìà ïîêà â òîì, ÷òî òîëüêî ëþäè ñ ïðèëè÷íûì äîõîäîì ìîãóò âèäåòü ýòó äðóãóþ Ðîññèþ è íàñëàæäàòüñÿ æèçíüþ. Íî ýòî òîæå âîïðîñ âðåìåíè. Ðîññèþ 90ûõ íàäî ñðàâíèâàòü â ÑØÀ 30ýõ ãîäîâ âðåìåí êðèçèñà, àìåðèêå ïîíàäîáèëîñü âûéãðàòü â âîéíå, ïîäíÿòü íà ýòîì ïðîìûøëåííîñòü, ÷òîáû òîëüêî ÷åðåç 30 ëåò âåðíóòñÿ ê ñòàáèëüíîìó ðîñòó è ðàñöâåòó ýêîíîìèêè. Òàê ÷òî ó Ðîññèè åùå âñå âïåðåäè. Ñàìîå ãëàâíîå â ëþäÿõ ïðîñíóëàñü ãîðäîñòü çà äåðæàâó, êîòîðîé íå áûëî ñ 90ûõ. ìåíÿ ýòî ðàäóåò è ÿ æåëàþ Ðîññèÿíàì òîëüêî ïîëîæèòåëüíûõ ýìîöèé è ìèðíîãî íåáà íàä ãîëîâîé. Âåðþ, ÷òî íèêàêîé âîéíû ñ Óêðàèíîé íå áóäåò. Îíà ñàìà ðàñïàäåòñÿ â ðåçóëüòàòå ãðàæäàíñêîé âîéíû, à âîò â ñâîáîäíóþ æóðíàëèñòèêó, ÿ íå âåðþ, âñåãäà êòî-òî ïëàòèò çà ðàáîòó, ïîýòîìó áûòü íåçàâèñèìûì íåðåàëüíî.
You may read this also, comments to article too.
http://www.vz.ru/opinions/2014/4/11/681573.html
The tenacity you are trying to find my weak spots amazes me. Show where I wrote that it was my fiancee who did not vote for criminals. I wrote - the guy I know.  Is it normal for gentleman (which you think you are) misrepresent and distort the facts to ascribe me in what I didn't speak. Did I ever wrote that Barbossa was idiot? I wrote that someone can recognize himself. It was you who recognized and seems agreed with that conclusion. Forum is not the place for personal references.
Please, stop to devote all ur posts to my person, my fiance is quite jealous  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 13, 2014, 03:45:21 AM
http://lifenews.ru/news/131147
Looks like the civil war begining.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 13, 2014, 04:20:32 AM
Costs of Propaganda War. Why the international community is silent about the genocide of Armenians in Kesap? Is it because Armenia - Russia's ally?
http://izvestia.ru/news/569137
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 13, 2014, 04:41:02 AM
...I will not translate in English opinion of one Jew (my friend) from odnoclassniki. If you know Russian as well as u are boasting u'll be able to translate.
Âîîáùå îíà ñàìà ïðèçíàåò, ÷òî áîëüøèíñòâî ïðîãîëîñîâàëî çà ïðèñîåäèíåíèå Êðûìà ê ÐÔ, òàê î ÷åì ñûð-áîð?!
 òîì, ÷òî Ïóòèí íå ïðîãíóëñÿ êàê îáû÷íî, à âñåõ ñäåëàë, ïðè÷åì âòîðîé ðàç ïîäðÿä ïîñëå îòìåíû áîìáåæåê Ñèðèè. Îòæàë ñòðàòåãè÷åñêóþ òåððèòîðèþ ïîä øóìîê. Ýòî îáèäíî äëÿ êîíêóðåíòîâ, çàìåøàíî íà íåïðèÿçíè ê Ðîññèè. Íå òîëüêî áèçíåñ, ìíîãî ëè÷íîãî .
×òîáû ïîíÿòü ëþäåé â ÐÔ, íàäî òàì ïîæèòü. Îíè ãîòîâû ïåðåæèòü ëþáûå ñàíêöèè, ýòî òîëüêî ðàñêðóòèò ìåñòíîå ïðîèçâîäñòâî, ãîòîâû îòêàçàòüñÿ îò ïîåçäîê çà ãðàíèöó, èì åñòü ãäå îòäûõàòü è â Ðîññèè. Îíè êëàëè íà âñå ëèöåíçèè ñîôòà, â ñàìûõ êðûïíûõ êîìïàíèÿõ íà ñåòåâûõ ðåñóðñàõ ìîæíî íàéòè ëþáîé ñîôò ñ ïàïêîé "êðÿê" âíóòðè. Îíè ïåðåæèëè 90ûå, à ñåé÷àñ âñå ñîâñåì ïî-äðóãîìó. Ïðîáëåìà ïîêà â òîì, ÷òî òîëüêî ëþäè ñ ïðèëè÷íûì äîõîäîì ìîãóò âèäåòü ýòó äðóãóþ Ðîññèþ è íàñëàæäàòüñÿ æèçíüþ. Íî ýòî òîæå âîïðîñ âðåìåíè. Ðîññèþ 90ûõ íàäî ñðàâíèâàòü â ÑØÀ 30ýõ ãîäîâ âðåìåí êðèçèñà, àìåðèêå ïîíàäîáèëîñü âûéãðàòü â âîéíå, ïîäíÿòü íà ýòîì ïðîìûøëåííîñòü, ÷òîáû òîëüêî ÷åðåç 30 ëåò âåðíóòñÿ ê ñòàáèëüíîìó ðîñòó è ðàñöâåòó ýêîíîìèêè. Òàê ÷òî ó Ðîññèè åùå âñå âïåðåäè. Ñàìîå ãëàâíîå â ëþäÿõ ïðîñíóëàñü ãîðäîñòü çà äåðæàâó, êîòîðîé íå áûëî ñ 90ûõ. ìåíÿ ýòî ðàäóåò è ÿ æåëàþ Ðîññèÿíàì òîëüêî ïîëîæèòåëüíûõ ýìîöèé è ìèðíîãî íåáà íàä ãîëîâîé. Âåðþ, ÷òî íèêàêîé âîéíû ñ Óêðàèíîé íå áóäåò. Îíà ñàìà ðàñïàäåòñÿ â ðåçóëüòàòå ãðàæäàíñêîé âîéíû, à âîò â ñâîáîäíóþ æóðíàëèñòèêó, ÿ íå âåðþ, âñåãäà êòî-òî ïëàòèò çà ðàáîòó, ïîýòîìó áûòü íåçàâèñèìûì íåðåàëüíî.

Whynotme, this is how your quote shows up on my computer.  I have no chance of reading it, let alone translating it, so it would be nice if you could give us at least a summary of what your friend has written.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 13, 2014, 05:18:59 AM
Google translator:
Generally Europe recognizes that the majority voted for annexation of the Crimea to the Russian Federation, so what the fuss is?
The fact that Putin has not caved in as usual, but made all for the second time after the abolition of bombing Syria. Got strategic territory. It is insulting to the competitors, brewed on hostility to Russia. Not only business, a lot of personal.
To understand the people in Russia, it is necessary to live there. They are willing to endure any sanctions, it just roll the local production, ready to abandon trips abroad, they have a place to rest in Russia. They put on all the software license, and coarse in most companies to network resources, you can find any software to the folder "crack" inside. They survived the 90th, and now things are quite different. The problem while that only people with a decent income can see this other Russian and enjoy life. But this is also a matter of time. Russian 90th should be compared to the U.S. 30eh years since the crisis, America took to win the war, pick up on this industry that only 30 years later return to sustained economic growth and a prosperous economy. So Russia is still ahead. The most important thing in people awakened pride in power, which has not happened since the 90th. I'm happy and I wish the Russians only positive emotions and peaceful sky. I believe there will be no war with Ukraine. It falls apart by civil war itself, but I do not believe in free journalism, someone always pays for the work so to be independent so unreal.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 13, 2014, 08:24:52 AM
Russia is the the only country with any interest in the area.



Not quite. Doesn't Ukraine have an interest in Ukraine? The best thing for America and Russia to do is to tell Ukrainians to stop fighting, vote in the next election, and let UN monitors verify and count votes. Ukraine can be and should be in charge of it's own destiny.


Beside Ukraine and Russia, other ex soviet bloc nations have an interest over there and prefer to see Ukraine join the west, and not have Russia at their door again, ever. If you were in a bad marriage, you'll be wanting to live far away from the ex as possible, not next door.


So why does America have an interest over there? We have the leader of the free world and many nations depend on us for their security. Like it or not, it's a fact and a responsibility. Everybody, take a moment from your daily job as Average Joe Citizen, and imagine yourself as President of the United States. You prefer to lead in a peaceful world but instead, you are currently getting many calls from head of states in Europe and Asia asking you to help. You can tell those VIP's it's their problem or you can show support. The risks of not showing support are losing status and losing business. As president you may not care about the lives and security of other nation's citizens but you have to care about something selfish such as your reputation and loss of business which hurts the economy. Putin is looking good for caring about people being discriminated against in Ukraine. If he can look good, so can our president. Encouraging pro West Ukrainians to have a revolution and then handing them back to Russia is what Obama seems to be doing.  How many of you guys will tell a woman to get out of an abusive relationship from a man and when things get violent, you avoid it by pushing the woman back to the man? Vice President Biden is headed to Ukraine. Things may change, our support levels may increase to keep Ukraine free so they may choose their destiny.


Everybody here can imagine for themselves if they were living in a small country, what would be the right thing? Although some people hate America, not Russia, for meddling in Ukraine affairs, all America wanted to do is allow them to have fair and free elections, something they didn't have due to Russia meddling in Ukrainian affairs for many years. Regardless if America gave them an opportunity to have a free and fair election, it's wrong to take it away from them and the mess in east Ukraine has a chance of blowing it.


If Ukraine votes pro West, then Putin can decide if he wants to bring into Russia all the pro Russian Ukrainians and make them citizens or continue to promote a bloody civil war. Putin doesn't care about those people. He needs the land. Remember last month after Crimea, Putin said he doesn't want to see Ukraine split? It's all or nothing and since he already has Crimea which split Ukraine, Ukraine has to be reunited.


Obama already stated he will not be sending any pro west Ukrainians any weapons. America never has or will interfere with Ukrainian affairs as much as Russia. In the event of a civil war, America will send pro West Ukrainians food to fight against pro Russian citizens who will be supplied with weapons from Russia. As long as these facts continue, Putin knows he has Ukraine. He just have to be patient.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 13, 2014, 08:52:38 AM
FatherTime,

You don't even know what the Holodomor is without looking it up on Wikipedia. 

Tell us again how everything is going to be a WIN for Ukraine.   The man with great depths of knowledge.
I think you have lost objectivity and credibility when you claim that it is 300 Ukrainians that are involved in the movement against the current govt.  You have been minimizing the division from the start.   
I continue to believe that this will be solved without too much blood when/if the sides get together at the bargaining table.  I believe the US should not meddle with the process any more than it already has as it will be seen as an aggravation and escalation.  Your ‘love’ of Russia and constant ‘credibility building’ is humorous to read.     There is still no invasion though as you promised. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 13, 2014, 09:42:37 AM
Die-cast,
Please answer your previous questions for me.
Photo Guy,
Why do you think that RWD is a good place to get inside the Russian mind?
       There are people here from Russia or living in Russia, and this is not a political forum, so the sampling of people is probably random.

What prevent you from reading those threads about Ukraine/Russia cause, which we already have on RWD?
     Lack of time. I barely have time to be here.
 
Don't you think you can find there many answers to your questions?
     It would be nice, but my life does not depend on it. I do not live
in Ukraine.

     Can you tell us, why Ukraine is of interest to USA?
No, I only speak for myself. The USA is a supporter of NATO and Russia is close to NATO countries, so we are obligated to protect NATO countries. When Hitler invaded the Sudetenland to protect ethnic Germans, many countries did nothing and were not interested. The world is a small place. When a strong country invades a weak country, the world should be interested. When a country changes from a dictatorship to a democracy, the USA usually supports them.

     Do you question the actions of your politicians in Ukraine?
Which actions are you referring to? Kerry has been direct with Russia. I agree with his statements.

Why don't you use other sources about Russians in Russia except Russian News service?
     I am open to specific suggestions. Most of Lavrov's statements sound crazy to me.

What sources do you use to learn more about Ukrainians in Ukraine?
     I speak with people that I know there. And there are many internet articles. Even Belarus supports the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

Are you able to separate real news from ridiculous propaganda (both Russian and Ukrainian)?
   Yeah, I think so. For example, I read one story here about how there were 'fake' refugees from Crimea. I determined that was a stupid story because I then found many stories about real refugees from Crimea- many Tartars. And did you see the video where students protested the playing of the Russian anthem at their school in Crimea? I think the video was truthful.

Did the life of your Ukrainian friends improve since "corrupt dictator was thrown out"?
     That was very recent and yes, trade agreements are being made with the EU. Life for my friends there has not changed very much. Now they have hope for a better life. They want to travel freely to the EU. They want to follow in the footsteps of Poland.

What makes you think that Ukraine will be invaded?
     They already were invaded in Crimea and Russia is sending armed individuals to take over buildings in Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov, etc. Russia is interfering with life and government in Ukraine. Russia has many troops at the Ukraine border. Ukrainians are very worried. This is intimidation by Putin.

What do you think about Hungarian wish of Transcarpathia's annexion? (Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast)
     I am not familiar with that. Send me a link.

Do you understand that Ukraine is a bankrupt already and a part of Ukrainian population doesn't support current government?
     Did you know that many Americans do not support Obama. Ha. Yes, Ukraine is bankrupt, Russia is financially shaky, and the EU is slowly improving economically.
Allow Ukraine to solve their problems without an invasion, without taking over buildings and creating chaos. That is what Russians are doing.

Why people who were fighting on Maidan they call "heroes", but people who are protesting in South-Eastern Ukraine - "terrorists"?
   Good question. Maidan revolutionaries are heroes because they protested Yanukovych's sudden decision to avoid a trade agreement with the EU. Then Yanu's court said it was illegal to have a public protest. Then Yanu's police beat journalists and students who were protesting. Protesters gathered there for three months. They were brave and strong. The public became aware of Yanu's opulent palaces, in the context of a poor country. Yanu's court made it illegal to 'slander' the government, going against freedom of speech. His court made it illegal to wear protective helmets. Despite that, protesters of all ages remained on the square as the riot police tried to force them away. The brave protesters stood strong. The revolutionaries were protesting:
1- the right to protest 2- freedom of speech(Yanu's police beat many journalists) 3- Yanu's sudden decision to move away from the EU and toward Russia. There were many more protesting at Maidan than any pro-Russian protest in other cities.
     Now let's compare Maidan to the armed occupation of a Donetsk government building by a gunman from Tula. What are the pro-Russians in the East protesting? It is not clear to me. Please explain. They want anther corrupt leader like Yanukovych?

What do you think about statements like "Galicia, listen. Let's divorce" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAlyrQaBaBk), which comes from Ukrainian citizens in Donbass area?
     I think unification will benefit the citizens of Ukraine. I think separation will be a big mistake. If people in the east want to separate, maybe that's a good idea. But, it certainly should not be by force from outside, from Russia. Russian media is promoting the idea that the EU is a horrible place and Russia is wonderful place. It's ridiculous.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 13, 2014, 09:47:16 AM
Very recent news from Eastern Ukraine:

Quote
Fears of full-scale Russian invasion as eastern Ukraine cities toppled

Fears of further Russian land-grabs in Ukraine grew on Saturday as pro-Kremlin gunmen mounted a series of co-ordinated assaults on police stations and security buildings. The operations came as Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said Ukraine was “demonstrating its inability to take responsibility for the fate of the country”.

In what many fear could be the prelude to a full invasion by Russian troops, masked men armed with Kalashnikovs and stun grenades seized two police stations and an intelligence headquarters in eastern Ukraine.

Believed to include professional soldiers in their ranks, the gunmen also set up checkpoints along local roads and began barricading the buildings. There were reports of gunfire, but no casualties.
The operations followed a period of relative calm in eastern Ukraine, where the pro-Russian movement that had occupied a number of town hall buildings appeared to have lost momentum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10763008/Fears-of-full-scale-Russian-invasion-as-eastern-Ukraine-cities-toppled.html

Maybe those guys bought the Kalashnikovs and stun grenades at the same store from which Putin said the guys who took Crimea bought their uniforms.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 13, 2014, 10:08:29 AM
Quote
masked men armed with Kalashnikovs and stun grenades seized two police stations and an intelligence headquarters in eastern Ukraine.
There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 13, 2014, 10:11:03 AM
Lack of time.
...
It would be nice, but my life does not depend on it.
So why did you open this thread?  :crackwhip:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Patagonie on April 13, 2014, 10:18:51 AM
There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.
Total BS.
There is a core of professionels from russian services (secret or military) and some locals.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 13, 2014, 10:21:17 AM
Total BS.
There is a core of professionels from russian services (secret or military) and some locals.
Oh, sure. KGB-agents are everywhere, how I could forget?  :wallbash:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 13, 2014, 10:36:53 AM
Did you see the interview of the individual from Tula? He was armed, in the government building in Donetsk. Today's news:

 Pro-Ukraine demonstrations held in Luhansk, Odesa, and Kryvyy Rih (http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/13/pro-ukraine-demonstrations-held-in-luhansk-odesa-and-kryvyy-rih/)  Posted on April 13, 2014  by  marquepro (http://euromaidanpr.com/author/marquepro/)                      (http://1-ps.googleusercontent.com/x/www.pravda.com.ua/img.pravda.com/images/doc/1/9/1913996-lug2.jpg.pagespeed.ce.Bba_wio-pK.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 13, 2014, 01:17:45 PM
Maybe those guys bought the Kalashnikovs and stun grenades at the same store from which Putin said the guys who took Crimea bought their uniforms.
Maybe. Maybe at the same store as americans who use the Kalashnikovs in Irak. Or maybe where this guy did.
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/millaa/1111/11111_zpsfa9b4b27.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 13, 2014, 02:02:20 PM
When armed gunmen from Russia take over a government building in Ukraine, shouldn't the Ukrainian government respond? Here is what I think is happening:
1- Putin decides he would like to include eastern Ukraine into his new Soviet state.
2- Putin sends armed militia to eastern Ukraine to create a separatist movement, and that includes taking over government buildings. He has support of a large percentage of the population.
3- Ukraine government responds by attacking the armed gunmen who have taken over the buildings.
4- Putin and Lavrov characterize this response as 'violence against Russian speakers', which they say is unacceptable.
5- Putin sends his military to 'save' the Russian speakers.
   It's the same false pretext that was used for Crimea.
I admit that many eastern Ukrainians are pro-Russian, especially the older folks who might have a nice fantasy about returning to the Soviet Union, BUT it's barbaric to throw the government out of office, just because Putin would like that. It's crazy. Some Ukrainians want a united Ukraine and others want to be a separate government, or a part of Russia. A united Ukraine makes the most sense to me. It looks like the armed gunman who want separation are from Russia. Do Ukrainians want another country to decide their future? Do eastern Ukrainians want to give up democracy? I think it is obvious to many Ukrainians that Russia is trying to take advantage of the situation. What is the best scenario for all Ukrainians?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 13, 2014, 02:29:44 PM
I think this video is truthful. It shows a highly organized armed militia attacking a government building. Sent by Putin? Probably. Sent by Kyiv? Probably not. Sent by Obama? No. NATO? Probably not. These people are very different from families at Euromaidan. Look at the truth:

http://say.tv/220792/video/embed/30293/0a490d90bbd88f74817289cfb23e4a3f
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 13, 2014, 02:37:53 PM
Oh, sure. KGB-agents are everywhere, how I could forget?  :wallbash:

Enough of BS, russians military is operating on territory of Ukraine.
And have some shame, do not mention Afganistan veterans.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 13, 2014, 02:56:45 PM
Enough of BS, russians military is operating on territory of Ukraine.
And have some shame, do not mention Afganistan veterans.
What CIA chief John Brennan did in Kiev last week?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 13, 2014, 08:06:02 PM
And have some shame, do not mention Afganistan veterans.

Are you sure you inderstand the situation?

(http://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/p526x296/1538892_715561328494799_4410414650813212041_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 13, 2014, 09:21:25 PM
Brennan? Secret meeting? Do you think Ukrainians are puppets? or cattle? That's funny, you mention a secret meeting while Russian militia openly capture government buildings! That's a real contrast. Absurd. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 14, 2014, 03:19:08 AM
Quote
russians military is operating on territory of Ukraine.
What events on territory of Ukraine are NOT operating by Russia?
Why USA and NATO military are not operating on territory of Ukraine? As we all can see - it's easy to get there for poor, weak and useless Russian military even with weapons. If Russians can - why NATO can not? Rhetorical questions.

(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag20/Jam_live/10152408_10152343732827280_743144651_n_zps0cb67879.jpg)

(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag20/Jam_live/10171792_1398584130416392_451280013_n_zps439b96f9.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 14, 2014, 07:47:40 AM
There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.

I don't know about you but, I do have a problem with people who spit on the country that gave them birth.
 
BTW, I have from very good sources that the Afgahn war vets in Ukraine are taking up arms to fight the Soviet Russian invasion. The masked men you see at these revolts are the thugs employees of Akhmetov.
 
Edit: Regardless of what Belvis believes.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 09:15:59 AM

I don't know about you but, I do have a problem with people who spit on the country that gave them birth.
 

 

You forget that for most people involved that country would have been USSR. Where Russia and Ukraine were the same country. And it was good.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 14, 2014, 09:18:33 AM
You forget that for most people involved that country would have been USSR. Where Russia and Ukraine were the same country. And it was good.

You are forgetting that was more than 20 years ago. A whole generation has passed. And this new generation is doing the spitting.
 
Think about it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 09:28:53 AM

You are forgetting that was more than 20 years ago. A whole generation has passed. And this new generation is doing the spitting.
 
Think about it.

I hope majority of them is older than 20.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 14, 2014, 09:59:37 AM
I hope majority of them is older than 20.

I bet many of them are in their 30s. I don't think many have such great recollection of the Soviet Union. Now, if we were talking of people in their mid 40s, I could understand.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on April 14, 2014, 10:21:01 AM

Not quite. Doesn't Ukraine have an interest in Ukraine?


Sure and about half of them want to go with Russia.



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 10:46:07 AM
half of them want to go with Russia.


They can voice their opinions in the upcoming UN monitored election. Problem is now they know they're going to lose so they're throwing a temper tantrum. Pro Russian Ukrainians were never in the majority and Yanukovych should've never been elected.


Putin needs to act quick and take Ukraine over. He has the backing of his people but the closer Ukraine comes to joining the West and NATO, the harder it is to win them back. Putin will go down in Russia's history as the man who lost the most ex Soviet bloc nations to the West. Taking gifts(Crimea) back after a bad breakup is nothing to be proud about.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 14, 2014, 10:50:30 AM
They can voice their opinions in the upcoming UN monitored election. Problem is now they know they're going to lose so they're throwing a temper tantrum. Pro Russian Ukrainians were never in the majority and Yanukovych should've never been elected.


Putin needs to act quick and take Ukraine over. He has the backing of his people but the closer Ukraine comes to joining the West and NATO, the harder it is to win them back. Putin will go down in Russia's history as the man who lost the most ex Soviet bloc nations to the West. Taking gifts(Crimea) back after a bad breakup is nothing to be proud about.


Yanukovych wasn't elected only by Pro Russians so Pro Russians being a majority or not doesn't really matter.  Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they weren't legally elected.


I am not a Republican or Democrat yet I will vote for the one who I think is the best candidate unless I don't vote at all.  That still doesn't make me a Republican or Democrat.


If you can see past your own biases, you might be able to see past the propaganda.  Instead, you are feeding right into what they want you to believe.  Sort of like some saying all Maiden protesters were the people wanting a better life while all the Pro Russians are terrorists or Russian military trying to unbalance the country. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2014, 10:54:16 AM
 
BTW, I have from very good sources that the Afgahn war vets in Ukraine are taking up arms to fight the Soviet Russian invasion. The masked men you see at these revolts are the thugs employees of Akhmetov.
 


The general evidence suggests IMO that the protesters taking control of government buildings in eastern Ukraine are supported by a Russian covert initiative.   Some of the protesters are likely Russians, yet a significant percentage could indeed be Ukrainian citizens. 


What percentage of the Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine support Ukraine?  Comparisons with the American revolution say the number of Ukrainian patriots could be less than half of the population. 


The concept of independence from Britain offered much hope of a better life for American citizens.   In fact, many had immigrated to America to escape certain British ways.  Thus, the American revolution of 1774-1783 seemingly would have been supported by a vast majority of those residing in the American colonies.  It is generally accepted that only 40% of Americans were patriots.  20% were loyalists (tories) who supported the British king.  And 40% were neutral and sat on the fence. 

How does that compare with Ukraine?   The Ukrainian citizens have already experienced 20 years of independence from Russia.  Did this independence bring a better life?   I say "no."   So maybe the  40% patriot percentage of the American revolution is too large for eastern Ukraine.  And maybe a large percentage of the protesters are Ukrainians who simply wish to reunite with Russia. 

Although vastly outnumbered against the most powerful military in the world, the American patriot prevailed. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 11:14:06 AM

A lot of people, on this forum, seems to be allowing their own biases dictate logic.




Logic, not bias, says if the majority of Ukrainians are pro Russian and pro Yanukovych, Putin would just need to sit back and let the Ukrainians elect another pro Russian candidate instead of doing what he's doing.


Anybody with half a brain knows Ukrainian elections are always rigged.  I've never started a hate campaign against Yanukovych in the past and not making statements now because I'm upset, it's a fact Ukrainian elections are rigged just as some protestors are paid.  It's also a fact anybody who comes close to beating Yanukovych is jailed or poisoned. If the man enjoys such popularity to win elections easily, he and his master, Putin, wouldn't need to do those things.


Although vastly outnumbered against the most powerful military in the world, the American patriot prevailed. 



Ukraine can do what Afghanistan did but needs the same level of support as America gave Afghanistan against a USSR invasion. Ukrainians have home field advantage if war comes.


Chances are Putin is hoping for a civil war and he will get it if there's any truth to half Ukraine being pro Russia. I doubt enough east Ukrainians are willing to split Ukraine and Putin will need to send Russian troops in to protect Russian citizens living in east Ukraine instead. If civil war happens, Putin will arm pro Russian Ukrainians and the West probably will only send food and clothes to pro West Ukrainians to support their fight. Lots of Ukrainians have to die before the West gives them weapons. Lots of Russian troops have to die before Putin backs off Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 14, 2014, 11:18:50 AM

Logic, not bias, says if the majority of Ukrainians are pro Russian and pro Yanukovych, Putin would just need to sit back and let the Ukrainians elect another pro Russian candidate instead of doing what he's doing.


Anybody with half a brain knows Ukrainian elections are always rigged.  I've never started a hate campaign against Yanukovych in the past and not making statements now because I'm upset, it's a fact Ukrainian elections are rigged just as some protestors are paid.  It's also a fact anybody who comes close to beating Yanukovych is jailed or poisoned. If the man enjoys such popularity to win elections easily, he and his master, Putin, wouldn't need to do those things.




lol  First you say America would help protect elections from being rigged and now you are stating Yanu's elections were rigged even though EU and Canada monitored them. 


Anyone with half a brain would understand why some would elect Yanu since nothing really changed under this orange revolution administration.  Instead of giving people there more credit you seem to think they are idiots for not electing the same group who did nothing to help their lives.

Quote
According to an OSCE report the elections are in line with European standards and were "much more democratic than in many other former Soviet countries."




http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/eem/0950-viktor-yanukovych-winner-of-the-presidential-election-in-ukraine (http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/eem/0950-viktor-yanukovych-winner-of-the-presidential-election-in-ukraine)


Billy, logic would state that people decided to give a new runner a chance to see if things change.  Why is this so hard to understand?



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 12:21:06 PM

lol  First you say America would help protect elections from being rigged and now you are stating Yanu's elections were rigged even though EU and Canada monitored them. 



Do you know why people have a hard time debating you? Because you put words in people's mouths and make stuff up, then get excited over something they never said.


I said earlier UN will help protect elections and America assists people in other nations to get to the point they can have a fair and free election. America will let UN, not themselves, monitor the election.


Anyone with half a brain would understand why some would elect Yanu since nothing really changed under this orange revolution administration.  Instead of giving people there more credit you seem to think they are idiots for not electing the same group who did nothing to help their lives.




Again you're making stuff up about my opinions and getting excited about it. Can you quote me more often? You'll make less mistakes. Earlier I mentioned leaders in the Orange Revolution have failed. I also said everybody in the current Ukrainian government should lose their job, not just Yanukovych, because they too, as a whole, failed the Ukrainian people.


http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/eem/0950-viktor-yanukovych-winner-of-the-presidential-election-in-ukraine (http://www.robert-schuman.eu/en/eem/0950-viktor-yanukovych-winner-of-the-presidential-election-in-ukraine)[/color]



I can find special interest websites to support my argument too but why don't you go to the website that matters most? Probably won't support your argument? Go to the OSCE website and read their report on Ukraine's last presidential election based on what they monitored. They said the election met most international commitments, not all. Although Central Election Commission (CEC) signed off the election, 33% of the members wrote dissenting opinions. 33% is not a majority but one out three members seen something wrong with Ukraine's last election. That is 33% too much IMO to call the election fair.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 14, 2014, 12:51:09 PM
What CIA chief John Brennan did in Kiev last week?

I do not know even if he was there for sure but even if he did that is such minuscule matter in the whole thing that it doesn't matter anymore.

I have grown up in city about 50 miles from Kiev. Regardless what Russian media tries to portray in news these days Kiev and its surrounds never have been anti-Russian. Half of population spoke Russian, another half spoke in something broken between Russian and Ukrainian, very rarely you would come across someone who in day to day life spoke clean Ukrainian language. Never met anyone who strongly disliked Russia and/or its population.

And I do not know no one Ukrainian who wants Ukraine once again be part of Russia. No one! I am not saying there isn't such people but no, they are not majority whatsoever. I do not know either anyone who hates Russia and/or Russians (yet! because many soon will after what Russians do in Ukraine) But I do know those who ready to fight for Ukrainian independence and no, not because they are brainwashed by Ukrainian news but because they do not want to be part of Russia in any form or shape.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 14, 2014, 12:55:42 PM

Do you know why people have a hard time debating you? Because you put words in people's mouths and make stuff up, then get excited over something they never said.




I'm getting excited?  It seems you are making stuff up bro.  The only person I see getting excited is you and that is probably because you got called out for being biased.


Quote
I said earlier UN will help protect elections and America assists people in other nations to get to the point they can have a fair and free election. America will let UN, not themselves, monitor the election.


You said America will promote fair elections by UN monitors.  You still don't accept the word of third party monitors because it goes against your bias. 

This is what you stated.


Quote
America can get involved but will promote UN monitors to watch the elections, not rig the election.


I said the same thing. 


Quote
First you say America would help protect elections from being rigged and now you are stating Yanu's elections were rigged even though EU and Canada monitored them.

Now Billy is trying to twist things around by saying I am putting words in his mouth.  Sorry Billy, go back to the corner.

Quote
Again you're making stuff up about my opinions and getting excited about it. Can you quote me more often? You'll make less mistakes. Earlier I mentioned leaders in the Orange Revolution have failed. I also said everybody in the current Ukrainian government should lose their job, not just Yanukovych, because they too, as a whole, failed the Ukrainian people.


Nah, you keep stating the elections were rigged and I stated why I thought you were wrong and the logic behind it.  I can't help if you are at a loss for words and instead of debating me on my points you decided to make this personal with "Excitement" and misquotations. 


You sound like a politician man.

Quote
I can find special interest websites to support my argument too but why don't you go to the website that matters most? Probably won't support your argument? Go to the OSCE website and read their report on Ukraine's last presidential election based on what they monitored. They said the election met most international commitments, not all. Although Central Election Commission (CEC) signed off the election, 33% of the members wrote dissenting opinions. 33% is not a majority but one out three members seen something wrong with Ukraine's last election. That is 33% too much IMO to call the election fair.


Post away dude.  I also would be interested in your explanation into the special interests of the group behind the link I posted.   As far as I know this is a EU based research group who said the election of a (according to you) Pro Russian was all fair. 

Maybe we should get Ukranian monitors because our last couple of elections have been seriously debateable as to their "fairness".


We can't even get our elections 100% right without any problems and you expect other countries to do the same. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 14, 2014, 01:03:31 PM
Are you sure you inderstand the situation?

(http://scontent-b-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t1.0-9/p526x296/1538892_715561328494799_4410414650813212041_n.jpg)

Yes, I am sure
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVDx-TqeWj4&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ghost of moon goddess on April 14, 2014, 01:04:59 PM
There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/v_n_zb/24204083/831335/831335_original.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmxBjsU2rig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmxBjsU2rig)

The word "поребрик'' (curb/kerb) is not used in Ukraine  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chelseaboy on April 14, 2014, 01:20:13 PM
They must be undercover USA operatives then,fully skilled in the Russian language..because they can't possibly be Russian troops fermenting trouble in a neighbouring country can they ?

Nah..the Russian and also the anti  evil  USA posters are sure that cannot be.

It's all a USA/EU conspiracy after all and poor Putler is soooo misunderstood by his non- fanboys/girls  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 01:23:27 PM
(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/v_n_zb/24204083/831335/831335_original.jpg)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmxBjsU2rig (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmxBjsU2rig)

The word "поребрик'' (curb/kerb) is not used in Ukraine  ;D
1

really? I googled поребрик Донбасс and a dozen ads come up selling curb calling in ПОРЕБРИК in Donbass region. May be they don't call it this where you live?

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 14, 2014, 01:23:48 PM
They must be undercover USA operatives then,fully skilled in the Russian language..because they can't possibly be Russian troops fermenting trouble in a neighbouring country can they ?

Nah..the Russian and also the anti  evil  USA posters are sure that cannot be.

It's all a USA/EU conspiracy after all and poor Putler is soooo misunderstood by his non- fanboys/girls  :rolleyes:


That's only because Russia hasn't perfected the drone attacks.  The US wouldn't get their hands dirty when they can hire it out to contractors. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 01:35:01 PM
http://atf-zarya.com.ua/trotuarnye-elementy/porebrik

there...your curb sold in Donetsk and called it not бордюр, not even бровка or трампель but .....ta-da... поребрик......
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 01:42:04 PM
So, USS Donald Cook was supposedly buzzed by 2 SU-24 fighters in the black sea. They report this is a direct provocation by the Russian government. To which I say...WTF is an American battleship still doing on the black sea? Their presence there alone is a provocation to this crisis.

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

Another fine European mess we're about to get pulled into again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2014, 01:56:49 PM
The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners.   And be prepared for a counterattack. 

Interrogation of prisoners would determine their identity.   Yes, it could get bloody.  As it stands now, Ukraine does not defend itself.  That fact is not lost on the rest of the world.   

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 14, 2014, 02:01:19 PM
So, USS Donald Cook was supposedly buzzed by 2 SU-24 fighters in the black sea. They report this is a direct provocation by the Russian government. To which I say...WTF is an American battleship still doing on the black sea? Their presence there alone is a provocation to this crisis.

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

Another fine European mess we're about to get pulled into again.


Well I have to agree...I don't even see the point of the destroyer being there at all.  If anything is launched off of it, Russia would have reason to blow it up, at which point we have an unnecessary escalation.  At which point, I would suspect the American people will be furious with Obama for putting it's crew members in harms way and involving us. 


Obviously our nation would be angered if Russian war vessels started showing up around Florida and Cuba.  Since the ship being there serves no purpose that I can think of, I feel we should move it out of there to keep our military out of this conflict. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chelseaboy on April 14, 2014, 02:07:57 PM
The Destroyer is there at the behest of Romania.


Why Romania specifically asked for a USA Warship,rather than a British or German one for example ,is open to debate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 02:12:08 PM
The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners.   And be prepared for a counterattack. 

Interrogation of prisoners would determine their identity.   Yes, it could get bloody.  As it stands now, Ukraine does not defend itself.  That fact is not lost on the rest of the world.


it's the beginning of a Civil War. Stuff often happening after revolutions. There are certainly all kind of people, including Russians, Russian agents, all kind of men wanting a bit of action for different reasons...But the majority are locals or semi-locals acting with support of local population and local police etc. It is NOT Ukraine defending itself, it is Civil War with neighbour v neighbour.

it could get as lovely as in Syria where democratic revolution has now forced over a million people out of their homes seeking refuge in neighbouring countries. Since Russia has an interest in the region and at the very least does not want refugees from across the border the Syrian scenario is not going to happen. But military operations are very possible. The west will of course cry invasion and blame Putin....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 02:27:06 PM
The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.



There's nobody better than America when it comes to security. Europe can't even rely on themselves to get it done. One American ship near Russia in response to tens of thousands of Russia's troops and war equipment on Ukraine's border isn't much for Russia to worry about and claim provocation.


The Philippines recently was bullied by China and now inviting American troops into their country. Again, people say America sticks it's nose in too many people's business but when there is trouble, America is first to be called on....to stick it's nose in somebody's business.


http://news.yahoo.com/philippines-aims-us-defence-deal-obama-visit-174845753.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 14, 2014, 02:44:50 PM
So, USS Donald Cook was supposedly buzzed by 2 SU-24 fighters in the black sea. They report this is a direct provocation by the Russian government. To which I say...WTF is an American battleship still doing on the black sea? Their presence there alone is a provocation to this crisis.

The NATO exercise had long since pass and if this is an extended NATO exercise, then why don't they get Europe's fleet out there instead.

Another fine European mess we're about to get pulled into again.


Well I have to agree...I don't even see the point of the destroyer being there at all.  If anything is launched off of it, Russia would have reason to blow it up, at which point we have an unnecessary escalation.  At which point, I would suspect the American people will be furious with Obama for putting it's crew members in harms way and involving us. 


Obviously our nation would be angered if Russian war vessels started showing up around Florida and Cuba.  Since the ship being there serves no purpose that I can think of, I feel we should move it out of there to keep our military out of this conflict. 


Fathertime!   

The Donald Cook has as much right to be in the Black Sea as any other warship from any other nation. The Black Sea is international waters.No nation has the right to buzz it without a just response. Doesn't matter "why" it's there, what matters is how other nations in the region/area respond to it. It is certainly cause for concern and caution. The 6th fleet isn't that far away and if it should appear in the Black Sea, it isn't a threat. It's a warning war is near.

IMHO
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 02:51:57 PM

Well I have to agree...I don't even see the point of the destroyer being there at all.  If anything is launched off of it, Russia would have reason to blow it up, at which point we have an unnecessary escalation.  At which point, I would suspect the American people will be furious with Obama for putting it's crew members in harms way and involving us....

Of course. Hell, I didn't see any Russian warships cruising along Venezuela's coastline during their recent unrest. 

Quote
....Obviously our nation would be angered if Russian war vessels started showing up around Florida and Cuba.  Since the ship being there serves no purpose that I can think of, I feel we should move it out of there to keep our military out of this conflict. 

Too late, at least according to this idiot...
Quote from: US Naval Forces Europe-Africa
...“Donald Cook’s mission is to reassure NATO allies of the U.S. Navy’s commitment to strengthen and improve interoperability while working toward mutual goals in the region.”...


So it isn't about any silly request by any country, or any NATO exercises.


"....On Wednesday, NATO’s top military commander in Europe said American troops may be deployed to the alliance’s member states in Eastern Europe...."
 
Quote from:  Gen Philip Breedlove (McCain's cousin)
...Essentially what we are looking at is a package of land, air and maritime measures that would build assurance for our easternmost allies.

Another bored & giddy General-in-Charge.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/10/357995/us-to-send-more-fighter-jets-to-poland/ (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/04/10/357995/us-to-send-more-fighter-jets-to-poland/)


Why we always get stuck into these messes is beyond me.

1. Ukraine wanted their independence, they ought to earn and fight for it to the last man - by themselves. Hell, drag the French & Germans into the mess if they have to.

2. Europe wants their phocking gas, have them take it from Russia. Hell, even the Neatherlands just passed a law to decrease their production of gas despite knowing EU is in need to secure all possible means for alternative sources.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 02:52:46 PM
The Donald Cook has as much right to be in the Black Sea as any other warship from any other nation. The Black Sea is international waters.No nation has the right to buzz it without a just response. Doesn't matter "why" it's there, what matters is how other nations in the region/area respond to it. It is certainly cause for concern and caution. The 6th fleet isn't that far away and if it should appear in the Black Sea, it isn't a threat. It's a warning war is near.

IMHO

You certainly can make the argument FP, but that isn't why it is there. See post above.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 14, 2014, 03:02:12 PM
You certainly can make the argument FP, but that isn't why it is there. See post above.

GQ
It's merely a presence, nothing more. The actual reason why it is there is pretty obvious but, nobody will admit to it. Neither will any of the other dozen or so countries that have a ship there. Russia and a dozen other countries are close to the U.S. in international waters on a regular basis. My point is/was, it's not unusual. What is unusual is for it to be buzzed intentionally. Even in international waters the Donald Cook has a right to defend itself. Doesn't matter one wit what is going on in Ukraine or what the ass clown politicians are mouthing off.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 14, 2014, 03:03:45 PM
The word "ïîðåáðèê'' (curb/kerb) is not used in Ukraine  ;D
Those experts never served in army and have no even the slightest idea what  they were talking about.
First, the Russian Special Forces conduct special and not military operation.
Secondly, they are not running in full growth as cockroaches crowds.
Third, they have the proper equipment (helmets, stun and, and, a means of communication - every fighter), not Saiga's and uniform  bought in local shop for fishing and hunting.
Fourth, they would not go in the forehead on duty armed commandos from the main entrance.

There were local guys having regular army training, which (unlike other commentators), apparently still able to hack coal which oligarchs saled. And sure, that among these guys there are loving sons, brothers and fathers who want a better life for their families.
Who sows the wind - reap the storm.

As for ïîðåáðèê... if you ever study or serve in army in another place u'll use local words for the whole life.
Very weak arguments.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 03:08:11 PM
The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners. 


Interrogation of prisoners would determine their identity.   



Obama talked to Putin today. Obama says there's overwhelming evidence Russia is behind the unrest. Maybe Obama can come to RWD and tell us what the evidence is and how he got it?


As it stands now, Ukraine does not defend itself.  That fact is not lost on the rest of the world.



I wouldn't look into that too much. Ukraine doesn't want to provoke Russia to cross the border in the event one Russian citizen gets killed. Vice President Biden will be visiting Ukraine in a week. It's best Ukraine take the chance to wait and gather more support from America instead of going at it alone.



Here's something for the conspiracy theorists out there. Obama sent one warship to the Black Sea not to scare Russia. It's purpose is to get sunk by Russian missiles or a secret missile delivered by American troops/pilot. The Tonkin Incident part II. American citizens will get pissed at Russia and give the green light to Obama to start a war bigger than what would be in Ukraine, a war that allows us to enter and take Russian land because we know America is all about gas and oil. I still think our presidents have been going about it all wrong for fuel. Mexico and Canada are easier to take than Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 14, 2014, 03:08:15 PM
Very "peacefull" news...
"Right sector" surrounded the Rada and calls for the Turchinovs resignation. The White House acknowledged the CIA chief visited Kiev last weekend for secret consultations. In the Donetsk region a special operation mode was declared. Polite Russian bomber politely flyed over American destroyer in the Black Sea. 12 times in a row. 
Who sows the wind will reap the storm.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 03:11:48 PM
GQ
It's merely a presence, nothing more. The actual reason why it is there is pretty obvious but, nobody will admit to it. Neither will any of the other dozen or so countries that have a ship there. Russia and a dozen other countries are close to the U.S. in international waters on a regular basis. My point is/was, it's not unusual. What is unusual is for it to be buzzed intentionally. Even in international waters the Donald Cook has a right to defend itself. Doesn't matter one wit what is going on in Ukraine or what the ass clown politicians are mouthing off.

The Cuban missile crisis wasn't too long ago FP. We fired at those ships in international waters, too you know. They had the right to bring whatever it is they wanted to bring to Cuba.

Steady deployment of land, air and naval personnel have one objective in mind this time only. Even during 'peace time' this could be seen as an act of provocation at best, but in a crisis that obviously involve European interest is a whole 'nother bean altogether, IMO.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 14, 2014, 03:12:19 PM

it's the beginning of a Civil War. Stuff often happening after revolutions. There are certainly all kind of people, including Russians, Russian agents, all kind of men wanting a bit of action for different reasons...But the majority are locals or semi-locals acting with support of local population and local police etc. It is NOT Ukraine defending itself, it is Civil War with neighbour v neighbour.

it could get as lovely as in Syria where democratic revolution has now forced over a million people out of their homes seeking refuge in neighbouring countries. Since Russia has an interest in the region and at the very least does not want refugees from across the border the Syrian scenario is not going to happen. But military operations are very possible. The west will of course cry invasion and blame Putin....


Ranetka, take back all your agents, toughs, colonels, lieutenants, subordinates, guns, grenades, explosives, ammunition, rifles and all other s* (pardon for my language) you are forwarding into Ukraine and you will see how fast any chances for any Civil War evaporate. Understand simple thing: you are the ones who trying to start Civil War in Ukraine in order to slice a piece of it. You can keep finding excuses as many as you wish but it doesn't mean your hands get cleaner.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 14, 2014, 03:23:57 PM

Ranetka, take back all your agents, toughs, colonels, lieutenants, subordinates, guns, grenades, explosives, ammunition, rifles and all other s* (pardon for my language) you are forwarding into Ukraine and you will see how fast any chances for any Civil War evaporate. Understand simple thing: you are the ones who trying to start Civil War in Ukraine in order to slice a piece of it. You can keep finding excuses as many as you wish but it doesn't mean your hands get cleaner.

I bet Ranetka has no power to do that. And don't worry, her hands are clean enouth. The main customer of recent events in Ukraine is USA, so send your petition there.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 14, 2014, 03:30:33 PM
The Cuban missile crisis wasn't too long ago FP. We fired at those ships in international waters, too you know. They had the right to bring whatever it is they wanted to bring to Cuba.

Yes and no. The U.S. did fire on Soviet ships warning shots after being informed that they would be fired upon if they attempted to break the naval blockade of Cuba. Actually, they were lucky they were not sunk.

No, the USSR didn't have a right to bring anything into Cuba they pleased. The cold war was real and Soviet nuclear warheads were not going to be permitted. The U.S. would have invaded Cuba and went to war with Russia to halt it. Kennedy made that clear. The Soviets denied the missiles existed.

Quote
Steady deployment of land, air and naval personnel have one objective in mind this time only. Even during 'peace time' this could be seen as an act of provocation at best, but in a crisis that obviously involve European interest is a whole 'nother bean altogether, IMO.

Agreed. But, much like any Russian ship in Cuba's ports now are less than 90 miles away from the US and they are not buzzed. There's a good reason for that.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 03:35:55 PM
Yes and no. The U.S. did fire on Soviet ships warning shots after being informed that they would be fired upon if they attempted to break the naval blockade of Cuba. Actually, they were lucky they were not sunk....

The naval blockage was spotted on international waters, FP. We didn't have the right to block anyone in international waters. Same as you saying we can have anyone and anything on international waters.

Quote
...No, the USSR didn't have a right to bring anything into Cuba they pleased. The cold war was real and Soviet nuclear warheads were not going to be permitted. The U.S. would have invaded Cuba and went to war with Russia to halt it. Kennedy made that clear. The Soviets denied the missiles existed. ...

They have as much right to have missiles in Cuba as much as we felt righteous having missiles in Turkey. How this was different is still a mystery to me.

 ;)

Quote
...Agreed. But, much like any Russian ship in Cuba's ports now are less than 90 miles away from the US and they are not buzzed. There's a good reason for that.


They weren't buzzed just fired at (soviet ships) LOL.

I digress. We have NO part in this mess and we shouldn't be IN this mess. Let the French handle this crap with Ukraine since they'll be the one freezing their butts off come winter time.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 14, 2014, 03:44:18 PM
The naval blockage was spotted on international waters, FP. We didn't have the right to block anyone in international waters. Same as you saying we can have anyone and anything on international waters.

They have as much right to have missiles in Cuba as much as we felt righteous having missiles in Turkey. How this was different is still a mystery to me.

 ;)


They weren't buzzed just fired at (soviet ships) LOL.

I digress. We have NO part in this mess and we shouldn't be IN this mess. Let the French handle this crap with Ukraine since they'll be the one freezing their butts off come winter time.

I don't necessarily disagree with your position on the whole situation but, I have a bit of an issue with your position that a US ship has no right to be there. There's Russian ships and subs 25 miles off the Eastern seaboard with regularity or constantly. They could be deemed a threat but, they are not. Your use of the Cuban Missile crisis as a defense doesn't cut the muster IMHO.

I am of an isolationist POV politically and foreign policy. Anything short of genocide, we need to keep our noses out. That goes for everything, military intervention, financial aid, humanitarian aid, everything. Letting the world deal with their problems and us deal with ours at home  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 03:48:19 PM

Ranetka, take back all your agents, toughs, colonels, lieutenants, subordinates, guns, grenades, explosives, ammunition, rifles and all other s* (pardon for my language) you are forwarding into Ukraine and you will see how fast any chances for any Civil War evaporate. Understand simple thing: you are the ones who trying to start Civil War in Ukraine in order to slice a piece of it. You can keep finding excuses as many as you wish but it doesn't mean your hands get cleaner.

I am not aware of any IDENTIFIED Russian army colonels or agents. What is identified is a CIA chief visit.
 Last thing I read on BBc website is Ukrainian police refused to fight activists. Why is that do you think?
Last time I came to Ukraine they checked I did not have any weapons, has something changed?

I do not think even Putin can stop Limonov's guys to fight where they want to, I can not help either, sorry.

Do you think Russia has not got enough territory already? What on earth for does Russia need bankrupt unstable state which on top owes Russia a lot of money?
Who do you think more interested in safe and prosperous Ukraine, Russia who is your neighbour and trade
partner or US for whom you are just one more undeveloped corrupt state like Libiya or Siriya?
You live in the UK, how much people here want Ukraine to be in EU? (you know they don't at all, do they?)


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 14, 2014, 03:50:32 PM
Yes and no. The U.S. did fire on Soviet ships warning shots after being informed that they would be fired upon if they attempted to break the naval blockade of Cuba. Actually, they were lucky they were not sunk.

No, the USSR didn't have a right to bring anything into Cuba they pleased. The cold war was real and Soviet nuclear warheads were not going to be permitted. The U.S. would have invaded Cuba and went to war with Russia to halt it.
Hey FP, Cuba was in OUR backyard and I think we probably would have went to war over it.  Russia decided it wasn't the right place or time, or worth the cost.  In addition the secret agreement to remove the Nuclear missiles in Turkey were to be removed so they got what they wanted and so did we...a win/win.  ;)

  Now this current situation is in RUSSIA'S backyard, if we start actively participating, I think Russia will go to war and pull out all the stops.  I don't think we should be putting ourselves in this situation.  I don't believe the American people are going to be very supportive if we do.



I am of an isolationist POV politically and foreign policy. Anything short of genocide, we need to keep our noses out. That goes for everything, military intervention, financial aid, humanitarian aid, everything. Letting the world deal with their problems and us deal with ours at home  :D


I think we can all agree that the ship has a RIGHT to be there...but that doesn't make it a good move, given the circumstances.  I mean one could say, The Soviet Union had a RIGHT to put missiles in Cuba, but it wasn't going to happen.  I know the situations aren't analogous but I can see unmistakable parallels.     

Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 04:05:24 PM
I don't necessarily disagree with your position on the whole situation but, I have a bit of an issue with your position that a US ship has no right to be there. There's Russian ships and subs 25 miles off the Eastern seaboard with regularity or constantly. They could be deemed a threat but, they are not. Your use of the Cuban Missile crisis as a defense doesn't cut the muster IMHO....

Hah! That's benign compared to the excessive use of 'Hitlerism' thus far in these discussions.

Quote
...I am of an isolationist POV politically and foreign policy. Anything short of genocide, we need to keep our noses out. That goes for everything, military intervention, financial aid, humanitarian aid, everything. Letting the world deal with their problems and us deal with ours at home  :D

...is all I'm saying. I'm just sick and tired of hearing how much of a war-mongering bastards we are to the point of having the graves of our fallen soldiers in Normandy spat at and desecrated not too long ago, man. This after selling us out for a few measly millions of dollars in Iraq. Like Nuland said, f@ck the EU.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 14, 2014, 04:11:48 PM
The Cuban Missile Crisis.  Many years after the crisis was averted, some revelations came to light.  For example, Castro was ready to launch the Soviet missiles if America invaded Cuba even knowing that Cuba would be totally destroyed.

The most interesting revelation was the action by  a Soviet submarine commander named Vasili Arkhipov.  He alone prevented a nuclear war when the American Navy surrounded a Soviet sub.   So everyone, next time you make a toast with vodka, be sure to pay respect to Vasili.   Some of us would not be alive today if not for him. 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-stopped-nuclear-war
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 04:22:19 PM

Besides Obama calling Putin, he's made calls to the leaders of major European nations to get ready to get tough on Russia and hit the Russian economy, including in the mining, finance and energy sectors, if Moscow does not change course. Although Europe's economy is fragile, they may be on board with Obama's requests. That will be determined after talks between Ukraine, Russia, EU, and America this Thursday. Don't expect protestor crackdowns or war before that.


Besides the CIA boss visiting Ukraine and Vice President Biden's scheduled visit, today Treasury Secretary Jack Lew signed a deal with Ukrainian Finance Minister Oleksandr Shlapak for a one billion dollar loan guaranteed. America is becoming more active in helping Ukraine with high level talks and support, not just promises of food. Now that America's money is invested in Ukraine, I don't think Obama is going to let Russia take it so easily.


http://news.yahoo.com/cia-chief-visited-kiev-weekend-white-house-174243734.html


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 14, 2014, 04:50:02 PM
...
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-stopped-nuclear-war (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/27/vasili-arkhipov-stopped-nuclear-war)

I've read about Vasya's story before, as was Yeltsin's. Certainly neither should ever be taken lightly. But there's a lone sentence in the article I didn't know or was aware of...

This one...

"....On one occasion, Jimmy Carter, the sanest of US presidents, left nuclear launch codes in his suit when it was sent to the dry cleaners...."

LOL. How appropriate!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 14, 2014, 05:10:04 PM
I am not aware of any IDENTIFIED Russian army colonels or agents.

http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_sbu-perehvatila-razgovor-separatistov-s-rossijskim-rukovodstvom/552530
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_v-slavyanske-obnaruzhili-rossijskij-specnaz-io/552309
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-strategy-in-eastern-ukraine-will-be-very-hard-to-stop-2014-4
http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/amid-new-violence-in-ukraine-western-and-russian-diplomats-escalate-rhetoric/498036.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/13/ukraine-unrest-spreads/7679125/

You expecting listed name, surname and date of birth?


Do you think Russia has not got enough territory already? What on earth for does Russia need bankrupt unstable state which on top owes Russia a lot of money?
Is the only ones are Russians who do not know that Putin is trying to build Greater Russia aka SSSR?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 05:27:08 PM
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_sbu-perehvatila-razgovor-separatistov-s-rossijskim-rukovodstvom/552530
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_v-slavyanske-obnaruzhili-rossijskij-specnaz-io/552309
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-strategy-in-eastern-ukraine-will-be-very-hard-to-stop-2014-4
http://www.examiner.com/article/russian-spetsnaz-arrested-ukraine
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/amid-new-violence-in-ukraine-western-and-russian-diplomats-escalate-rhetoric/498036.html
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/04/13/ukraine-unrest-spreads/7679125/

You expecting listed name, surname and date of birth?

Is the only ones are Russians who do not know that Putin is trying to build Greater Russia aka SSSR?

Yes, I expect evidence of Russian officials involved, similar to Nuland tape. What I hear is a conversation of two unidentified men, one talks with Ukrainian accent. I have no doubt, by the way, there are Russians in these groups, I think half of Limonov party, for example. So what? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 14, 2014, 05:50:22 PM
The best way to determine the identity of the protestors is for the Ukrainian security services to encircle one of these buildings, storm it and and take prisoners.

It was done a few times. Three weeks ago over 100 rioters were arrested in Donetsk, a week ago about 80 protestors were arrested in Kharkov. All turned to be Ukrainians.

SBU (security service of Ukraine) detains on regular base russian "diversants" like this 22 y.o. one, who is claimed to be FSB coordinator of unrests in Nikolaev:
(http://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/s403x403/10177342_670059726365222_4799407982228567321_n.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on April 14, 2014, 08:00:05 PM
A couple of interesting links about the propaganda war.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-russian-tv-caught-red-handed-as-same-guy-plays-three-different-people-343235.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/14/smoking-guns-shatter-russian-lies-about-no-troops-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 14, 2014, 08:50:00 PM


It's kind of funny to listen to nations deny having agents in Ukraine, a country they claim is bankrupt, worthless, and a drag on their economy if Ukraine aligns with them to get bailed out financially.


American CIA boss entered Ukraine under a different name and passport. How did Russia detect this without having spies in Ukraine? Some people will believe the lies so there's value telling a story to some folks.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 14, 2014, 08:51:28 PM
A couple of interesting links about the propaganda war.

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-russian-tv-caught-red-handed-as-same-guy-plays-three-different-people-343235.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/paul-roderick-gregory-russian-tv-caught-red-handed-as-same-guy-plays-three-different-people-343235.html)

http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/14/smoking-guns-shatter-russian-lies-about-no-troops-in-ukraine/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/14/smoking-guns-shatter-russian-lies-about-no-troops-in-ukraine/)
I'm sure the Putin lovers will come up with a very creative explanation. LOL  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 14, 2014, 09:08:29 PM
Fresh videos, not old ones again for many times

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNeKQXOsI0g&feature=youtu.be  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNeKQXOsI0g&feature=youtu.be)

this
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eew9bGi8KA  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eew9bGi8KA)

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNX9cdyCFAA&feature=youtu.be  (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNX9cdyCFAA&feature=youtu.be)
on last video candidate for president Zarev

Your very creative explanations, please
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on April 14, 2014, 09:40:48 PM
That was a hilarious cartoon.
What was the purpose of your posting it?

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 14, 2014, 09:42:46 PM
whynotme, most of us don't understand what is being said and happening. Could you explain it for us?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on April 14, 2014, 10:28:25 PM
I bet Ranetka has no power to do that. And don't worry, her hands are clean enouth. The main customer of recent events in Ukraine is USA, so send your petition there.

I hope your university students are not as clueless about world events as their professor is!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 14, 2014, 11:31:24 PM

It's kind of funny to listen to nations deny having agents in Ukraine, a country they claim is bankrupt, worthless, and a drag on their economy if Ukraine aligns with them to get bailed out financially.


American CIA boss entered Ukraine under a different name and passport. How did Russia detect this without having spies in Ukraine? Some people will believe the lies so there's value telling a story to some folks.

Who are the people denying Russians having spies in Ukraine Billy? If Russia does not have spies in a neibourhood country during civil war then some general need to be fired for gross incompetence.
The question is who is responsible for Civil war in Ukraine?  The roots are in Maidan and what Ukraine is having now is a normal result of a paid for revolution. If they are lucky there will be no Syria scenario.

They just can't stop blaming Russia for everything even after 23 years of independence.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on April 14, 2014, 11:41:57 PM
Who are the people denying Russians having spies in Ukraine Billy? If Russia does not have spies in a neibourhood country during civil war then some general need to be fired for gross incompetence.
The question is who is responsible for Civil war in Ukraine?  The roots are in Maidan and what Ukraine is having now is a normal result of a paid for revolution. If they are lucky there will be no Syria scenario.

They just can't stop blaming Russia for everything even after 23 years of independence.

Are you this clueless?  Russia invaded and annexed Crimea!!!!!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 14, 2014, 11:50:57 PM
I hope your university students are not as clueless about world events as their professor is!
My students know history muuuch better illiterate Americans  :D
Are u the next Barbossa to make personal comments?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on April 15, 2014, 12:44:58 AM
My students know history muuuch better illiterate Americans  :D
Are u the next Barbossa to make personal comments?

Your constant derogatory comments about my country I take personally.  So yes, I will push back when your comments are based upon untrue Russian propaganda. It is unfortunate that you have been spoon fed Soviet propaganda for so many years that you believe it no matter if it makes common sense or not.  Based upon your posts, we are learning much about the Russian mind and how you have become indoctrinated in Soviet nonsense over the years.  It seems to not matter what lies are told, you still believe what the Russian government tells you to believe.  Sad!

Most Westerners can sort the wheat from the chaff, whether it is Western propaganda or Russian propaganda.  Even when we cannot agree on any action that can or should not be taken, at least we can sort bullshit from facts.  I now understand more about the cold war than earlier.  There was no communication with ordinary Russians during the cold war because you lived in a closed society.  The news was only what the Kremlin allowed to be released.  Fortunately, the internet has somewhat overcome the ability of the Kremlin to totally control the news within Russian.  Hopefully the younger Russians will become more enlightened to the truths that were previously and currently controlled by the state.  As far as older people indoctrinated in the Soviet mentality, perhaps the young will help overcome it.

For someone that is planning to come to the USA, I am surprised that given your attitude and hatred for the USA, you would lower yourself to come to our fine country?  What's that all about?

In spite of your attitude toward the USA, you might want to use some common sense and ask yourself why tens or hundreds of thousands of people want to immigrate to the USA?  Many, waiting for years to get immigration approval and some risking their lives to get her illegally.  Can you say the same about Russia?  Are all these people just brainwashed idiots that are fools standing in line for something worse than Russia?  Think about it.

You were asked a couple of questions about the video of the tank that you have not answered.  Can you grant us the courtesy of answering them?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 15, 2014, 01:50:47 AM
Your constant derogatory comments about my country I take personally.  So yes, I will push back when your comments are based upon untrue Russian propaganda. It is unfortunate that you have been spoon fed Soviet propaganda for so many years that you believe it no matter if it makes common sense or not.  Based upon your posts, we are learning much about the Russian mind and how you have become indoctrinated in Soviet nonsense over the years.  It seems to not matter what lies are told, you still believe what the Russian government tells you to believe.  Sad!

Most Westerners can sort the wheat from the chaff, whether it is Western propaganda or Russian propaganda.  Even when we cannot agree on any action that can or should not be taken, at least we can sort bullshit from facts.  I now understand more about the cold war than earlier.  There was no communication with ordinary Russians during the cold war because you lived in a closed society.  The news was only what the Kremlin allowed to be released.  Fortunately, the internet has somewhat overcome the ability of the Kremlin to totally control the news within Russian.  Hopefully the younger Russians will become more enlightened to the truths that were previously and currently controlled by the state.  As far as older people indoctrinated in the Soviet mentality, perhaps the young will help overcome it.

For someone that is planning to come to the USA, I am surprised that given your attitude and hatred for the USA, you would lower yourself to come to our fine country?  What's that all about?

In spite of your attitude toward the USA, you might want to use some common sense and ask yourself why tens or hundreds of thousands of people want to immigrate to the USA?  Many, waiting for years to get immigration approval and some risking their lives to get her illegally.  Can you say the same about Russia?  Are all these people just brainwashed idiots that are fools standing in line for something worse than Russia?  Think about it.

You were asked a couple of questions about the video of the tank that you have not answered.  Can you grant us the courtesy of answering them?


 :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 15, 2014, 02:00:44 AM
whynotme, most of us don't understand what is being said and happening. Could you explain it for us?

The first video was made in kiev. You can see young Ukrainian Nazis abused women who have come to put flowers in remembrance of Berkut.

The second video - villagers stopped the tank, which was sent against the insurgent South-East.  Any tanks were used against Crimean population?

The third video - the presidential candidate of the South-East Tsarev, who was beaten after the TV conference.
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-presidential-candidates-attacked-516/ <<< in English here

But you're know all, you are not brainwashed and your point of view is the only correct  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 15, 2014, 02:03:37 AM
In spite of your attitude toward the USA, you might want to use some common sense and ask yourself why tens or hundreds of thousands of people want to immigrate to the USA?  Many, waiting for years to get immigration approval and some risking their lives to get her illegally.  Can you say the same about Russia?  Are all these people just brainwashed idiots that are fools standing in line for something worse than Russia?  Think about it.

May I use the same weapon as you do? Don't judge everybody according ur wife.  :D Sure she comes to USA just cuz a great love not citizenship.
Think about it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 15, 2014, 03:30:38 AM
I saw today a comment thread about protests in East of Ukraine. A talk between Russian (R.)  and local from Kharkov (U.):

> U.: I saw here no russian special forces men. I were watching, but failed. There is people with cracked brains after maidan who wants to run in Russia to feel confidence in the future.
> R.: Of course, there are no special forces there. Civil riots are out of their jurisdiction.
> U.: How is no? Our media in Kharkov declares daily about 20 exposed FSB guys. So I insist there are FSB men, at least in TV ).
> R.: Hey, slow down, guys. We can't keep pace with you to prepare new experts. You force us to send poorly equipped youngsters.
> U.: Don't send more, we're closing the border. Though I wander what will be in reports from our valiant secret service. Probably they will catch the rest couple of millions spies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ghost of moon goddess on April 15, 2014, 03:37:48 AM
1

really? I googled поребрик Донбасс and a dozen ads come up selling curb calling in ПОРЕБРИК in Donbass region. May be they don't call it this where you live?

Actually, what they call 'поребрик' are curbstones - stones or blocks used to form curbs/бордюры
where I live and in most places across Russia (except St. Petersburg, I guess)  the word 'поребрик' is not used to mean a curb. Muscovites often say in jest - calling a curb 'поребрик'  is sure to reveal your 'tourist from St. Petersburg' status.

(http://lamcdn.net/lookatme.ru/post-cover/ceJrxWCGIadB3w5jIdSRUg-default.jpg)

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2014, 05:33:10 AM
It was done a few times. Three weeks ago over 100 rioters were arrested in Donetsk, a week ago about 80 protestors were arrested in Kharkov. All turned to be Ukrainians.

SBU (security service of Ukraine) detains on regular base russian "diversants" like this 22 y.o. one, who is claimed to be FSB coordinator of unrests in Nikolaev:
(http://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/s403x403/10177342_670059726365222_4799407982228567321_n.jpg)

What a babe!   She would be an ideal wife for some of our far right-wing American men.   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 15, 2014, 05:39:28 AM
What's not to love? Big boobs, handles a grenade launcher well and the hand grenade tatt is a nice touch. I'd say she's ideal for a left winger or they should both see other men  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2014, 05:47:48 AM
Faux Pas,

Yeah, she could teach a liberal a few things about life.   

We  need to find what marriage agency she is listed with, and then broadcast her contact info.  I don't believe she will be a prodater, wanting to travel to Italy to buy Gucci shoes.   Instead,  she would enjoy a trip to some country in central Africa experiencing a civil war.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 15, 2014, 05:48:33 AM
My 14-yo stepson watches Russian TV on the internet for news.  He explains to me that the Ukrainian people are injuring Russians living in Ukraine, and that Putin needs to protect the Russians there. 

We had a little talk.


Where are the Russian citizens getting their news?  Is it just government TV?  Are the independent TV channels in Russia allowed to broadcast unfettered coverage of this conflict.   Supposedly during the Crimea seizure the independent stations were censored.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 06:03:20 AM
ask yourself why tens or hundreds of thousands of people want to immigrate to the USA? ... Can you say the same about Russia?
Net migration rates for 2011: positive (blue), negative (orange), stable (green), and no data (gray)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Net_migration_rate_world.PNG/800px-Net_migration_rate_world.PNG)

I hope you are able to find Russia on the map...  :rolleyes:

The number of people who left Russia (red line) and arrived in Russia (blue line) during 1993-2009 years, thousands of people (Число выбывших из России и прибывших в Россию в 1993—2009 годах, тыс. человек)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/b/b2/EMIMRF19932009.png)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 06:07:19 AM
Are the independent TV channels in Russia allowed to broadcast unfettered coverage of this conflict.
There is no independent TV in Russia. There is internet in Russia. And 65 millions of Russians who use internet daily (not just have access every day, but really use it on daily basis).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: whynotme on April 15, 2014, 06:24:44 AM
Where are the American citizens getting their news?   :D Were they told at least where Ukraina is?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 15, 2014, 06:46:59 AM
I saw today a comment thread about protests in East of Ukraine. A talk between Russian (R.)  and local from Kharkov (U.):

> U.: I saw here no russian special forces men. I were watching, but failed. There is people with cracked brains after maidan who wants to run in Russia to feel confidence in the future.
> R.: Of course, there are no special forces there. Civil riots are out of their jurisdiction.
> U.: How is no? Our media in Kharkov declares daily about 20 exposed FSB guys. So I insist there are FSB men, at least in TV ).
> R.: Hey, slow down, guys. We can't keep pace with you to prepare new experts. You force us to send poorly equipped youngsters.
> U.: Don't send more, we're closing the border. Though I wander what will be in reports from our valiant secret service. Probably they will catch the rest couple of millions spies.

Where did you get hilarious piece? A Russian comedy show?  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 06:57:34 AM
Oh, and about Russian comedy show...  :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5G5Qhg0CiM

"Transcarpathian partisan"

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 15, 2014, 07:22:08 AM
There is no independent TV in Russia. There is internet in Russia. And 65 millions of Russians who use internet daily (not just have access every day, but really use it on daily basis).

True. If the truth be known, there is no independent internet in Russia, either. We have Russian TV channels at our house. My wife is Russian and watches mostly just the classic Russian programs, hardly none of the Russian news or magazine shows. About 90-95% of her news she gets from various sources on the internet. My wife tells me these are trusted sources for news of Russia. I don't know what those sources are. I've never asked. Of course I don't read Cyrillic anyway.

I've visited Russia many times although I am no expert or even vaguely familiar with Russian politics but, I know many Russians in Russia and I know their position on politics and Putin in particular. I asked my wife why she thought the RW here on this forum could be so diabolically opposite to her view and the views of other Russians we know personally. Her straight and quick response was "it's where they are getting their information".

Countrymen/women from any country are going to disagree especially on politics but, given that you "know" by your admission here that there is no independent news source widely available to Russians in general. Why do you trust what you do have so vehemently?


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 07:31:29 AM
 :popcorn:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bXjkT_mj7Io
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 07:49:41 AM
there is no independent internet in Russia, either.
Internet is internet. We don't have here some special "Russian internet", everyone can choose what to read now about Ukraine, Western media on internet also.
Quote
We have Russian TV channels at our house. My wife is Russian and watches mostly just the classic Russian programs, hardly none of the Russian news or magazine shows.
We now watch channel Disney during half an hour every morning. That's all. Have I to add that there is no political news on Disney channel?
Quote
About 90-95% of her news she gets from various sources on the internet.
Similar for me, about 80% of information I get from internet.
Quote
I asked my wife why she thought the RW here on this forum could be so diabolically opposite to her view and the views of other Russians we know personally. Her straight and quick response was "it's where they are getting their information".
Well, if all people would get same information they would still have different opinions, it's personal choice. My opinion is different not because I get some "special" and "wrong" information, but because I'm different person.
Why do you trust what you do have so vehemently?
If you think that I trust anything vehemently, you got wrong impression about me.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 08:02:32 AM
I asked my wife why she thought the RW here on this forum could be so diabolically opposite to her view and the views of other Russians we know personally. Her straight and quick response was "it's where they are getting their information".

The new propaganda machine is forums and blogs. Political campaigns, governments, pay people to blog and post their views on highly fueled issues 24/7 on the web. Look no further than the current US administration and the Healthcare debate for the last 5 years. The anti gun debate after Sandy Hook. It is the new age of spreading the lies to convince people it is the truth. It is only going to get worse. A propaganda minister's dream.

Look at RUA and this forum. At RUA you have an administrator who hates Ukraine and the US. If you do the research on his name you can piece the puzzle together. He creates forum traffic by making deals and or topics. His pockets are being lined in some way by what he post and publishes.

Usually when something does not make sense its not the truth.

This is the new age of integrity. For $10.00 you throw it out the window when it comes to the internet.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 08:07:57 AM
The new propaganda machine is forums and blogs.

Forums and blogs are just personal opinions. Like this one here. If a head of state is going to use this forum to make an Earth-shattering decision, then we are DEAD.
 
You see how simple was that?
 
You CAN research the internet for FACTS. THAT is a given. The internet CAN be a research tool.
 
It is the lazy people who do not want to exercise their brain who rely on blogs and forums for their "news."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2014, 08:26:53 AM
The question is who is responsible for Civil war in Ukraine?

 


If you see American made guns, brand new uniforms, and use of American(there's a difference between Russian) military grade razor wire being used, we can correctly assume America is promoting civil war in Ukraine. So far I see brand new Russian made gear being used. I still have an old uniform from the Army. It is old and faded. The old soldiers who claim to be protesting are wearing new unmarked gear, not the stuff they had back when they were in the military with unit identifications.


Even in America's civil war, both the South and North had help from other nations. Without proper backing and a real chance to win, citizens are much less likely to have a civil war.


If Russia really doesn't have an interest in the rest of Ukraine, they should pull back their forces and stop talking about Ukraine in Russian news everyday which ends up getting Russian citizens pissed off at Ukraine. High level talks will happen Thursday. We'll see if Russia can accept UN peacekeepers in Ukraine to protect Russian citizens living there and encourage a riot free election next month. I doubt it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BC on April 15, 2014, 08:42:59 AM

If you see American made guns, brand new uniforms, and use of American(there's a difference between Russian) military grade razor wire being used, we can correctly assume America is promoting civil war in Ukraine. So far I see brand new Russian made gear being used. I still have an old uniform from the Army. It is old and faded. The old soldiers who claim to be protesting are wearing new unmarked gear, not the stuff they had back when they were in the military with unit identifications.


That's naive.. the US buys AK47's a plenty...  the pentagon is not dumb... in any case the AK's probably work better.

http://www.infowars.com/u-s-army-buys-nearly-600000-soviet-ak-47-magazines/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2014, 08:52:49 AM
That's naive.. the US buys AK47's a plenty...  the pentagon is not dumb... in any case the AK's probably work better.

http://www.infowars.com/u-s-army-buys-nearly-600000-soviet-ak-47-magazines/


We're talking Ukraine right? If America issued out Ak-47's, brand new uniforms and other military gear, who will they issue it out to? Explain why you think the pentagon and America is starting a civil war in Ukraine and trying to topple a Pro West Ukrainian government by issuing Russian made gear to Pro Russian Ukrainians. Why would America help Russia? All this bickering of late between them is just an act?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 15, 2014, 08:59:54 AM
Look at RUA and this forum. At RUA you have an administrator who hates Ukraine and the US. If you do the research on his name you can piece the puzzle together. He creates forum traffic by making deals and or topics.

Can you give an example of making deals?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 09:01:20 AM
How about some American propaganda?
 
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/04/224759.htm (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2014/04/224759.htm)
 
Can't wait to hear the Russians.  :P
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BC on April 15, 2014, 09:03:24 AM

We're talking Ukraine right? If America issued out Ak-47's, brand new uniforms and other military gear, who will they issue it out to? Explain why you think the pentagon and America is starting a civil war in Ukraine and trying to topple a Pro West Ukrainian government by issuing Russian made gear to Pro Russian Ukrainians. Why would America help Russia? All this bickering of late between them is just an act?

Billy,

there are interests and there are interests.. what the common man see's is only a small if any part of the whole scheme, whether from RU or USA  That's the 'jist' of my post... no more, no less.

Do you really think a little forum such as this is authoritative?  I think not.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 15, 2014, 09:05:41 AM
Internet is internet. We don't have here some special "Russian internet", everyone can choose what to read now about Ukraine, Western media on internet also. We now watch channel Disney during half an hour every morning. That's all. Have I to add that there is no political news on Disney channel?


This is where you are wrong. You only have the internet that your internet provider allows you to have. I have witnessed this in Russia first hand albeit it, that was 8 years ago. Russia was the first place where I experienced that the world wide web could only be accessed through a local intranet. I did see it improve over the years but lately appears to have regressed. There is a reason the Iranians, Chinese, North Koreans and a dozen or so other countries access an intranet but don't have access to the world wide web. It's not since Putin became Emperor that restrictions are starting tightening once again in Russia.

Quote
Similar for me, about 80% of information I get from internet.Well, if all people would get same information they would still have different opinions, it's personal choice. My opinion is different not because I get some "special" and "wrong" information, but because I'm different person. If you think that I trust anything vehemently, you got wrong impression about me.

No doubt, People are just going to disagree. I have friends in Russia (few) that openly support Putin. I also have others (most) who opposed Putin but wouldn't do it in public, outside of the home or circle of friends. I remember seeing pictures of Putin on the walls of various homes and work places when he was the prime minister and no picture of Medvedev and he was president.

I fond it odd that 4 years most Russians were pissed that Putin changes the constitution so that he could again be President. When he enters office there was Arab Spring like uprisings in Moscow and Petersburg and now, he's the second coming of Christ to many of the RW posting here. Very odd
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 15, 2014, 09:13:42 AM
The new propaganda machine is forums and blogs. Political campaigns, governments, pay people to blog and post their views on highly fueled issues 24/7 on the web. Look no further than the current US administration and the Healthcare debate for the last 5 years. The anti gun debate after Sandy Hook. It is the new age of spreading the lies to convince people it is the truth. It is only going to get worse. A propaganda minister's dream.

Look at RUA and this forum. At RUA you have an administrator who hates Ukraine and the US. If you do the research on his name you can piece the puzzle together. He creates forum traffic by making deals and or topics. His pockets are being lined in some way by what he post and publishes.

Usually when something does not make sense its not the truth.

This is the new age of integrity. For $10.00 you throw it out the window when it comes to the internet.

This and other blogs amount to nothing more than spit in the ocean. I do agree with you however that there are many folks and organizations that attempt to create opinion for a cash price via the internet and they are successful. Some such as George Soros do it to change policy and I will remain convinced that without the internet, Obama would never have been elected. They are not alone, every cause and political persuasion do the same thing. Hillary Clinton was caught last week with 80% (?) of her twitter followers were paid phantoms. It's the world we live in. Disimformation.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 09:21:02 AM
This and other blogs amount to nothing more than spit in the ocean. I do agree with you however that there are many folks and organizations that attempt to create opinion for a cash price via the internet and they are successful. Some such as George Soros do it to change policy and I will remain convinced that without the internet, Obama would never have been elected. They are not alone, every cause and political persuasion do the same thing. Hillary Clinton was caught last week with 80% (?) of her twitter followers were paid phantoms. It's the world we live in. Disimformation.

Is that italic (Soros) or slant (Koch Bros.)? Any difference?  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 15, 2014, 09:26:54 AM

Is that italic (Soros) or slant (Koch Bros.)? Any difference?  ;D

No difference there leftwinger man  ;D Didn't my following statement clarify that?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2014, 09:29:36 AM

there are interests and there are interests..
.


That's the truth and your interests was to show I'm naïve by linking an article that says America bought old Soviet era Ak-47 magazines for Syrian rebels. If you really believe America is supplying pro Russian Ukrainians with Russian made gear, state that as your opinion instead of calling people naïve. NEW magazines are being used by the protestors, not OLD Soviet era magazines that America bought for the Syrian rebels.


what the common man see's is only a small if any part of the whole scheme, whether from RU or USA 



I've been saying that since the problem started and people should accept it instead of being pissed off at America or Russia. This stuff is nothing new. People should not be alarmed Russia and America are involved in Ukrainian affairs even if they are using methods that seem wrong and unethical to some people. They should not be alarmed America encouraged regime change in Ukraine and should not be alarmed Russia wants to influence Ukraine or is willing to do a hostile takeover. It's all a matter of survival and if America or Russia doesn't protect it's interests, their world gets smaller. America was slow to learn after WW2 when the Soviets spread Communism. In the end, America has done a better job at foreign affairs than our advisories but it doesn't mean we can stop and assume all nations of the world will hold hands and remain friendly with each other.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 10:11:01 AM
Can you give an example of making deals?

This is the internet. You don't need proof. I give my educated opinion.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: alex330 on April 15, 2014, 10:13:53 AM
I've been saying that since the problem started and people should accept it instead of being pissed off at America or Russia. This stuff is nothing new. People should not be alarmed Russia and America are involved in Ukrainian affairs even if they are using methods that seem wrong and unethical to some people. They should not be alarmed America encouraged regime change in Ukraine and should not be alarmed Russia wants to influence Ukraine or is willing to do a hostile takeover. It's all a matter of survival and if America or Russia doesn't protect it's interests, their world gets smaller.

That's pretty much how the cards fall as I see it. It just so happens my wife is Ukrainian and I am on the opposite team on this one. Sucks Putin seems to be playing his hand so much better than those we have in power. I read a quick opinion on why Russia should invade and if half of what the author says is true it makes sense for Putin to roll on in or use everything in his power to implement a pro Russian government. I will let the experts here pick it apart for inconsistencies.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14808#.U01moFc7bic (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14808#.U01moFc7bic)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:37:36 AM
that was 8 years ago. Russia was the first place where I experienced that the world wide web could only be accessed through a local intranet. I did see it improve over the years but lately appears to have regressed.
Thanks for comparing us to China, that explain pretty good how some (many?) Americans see situation in Russia...  :rolleyes:
Judging current situation with internet by your experience 8 years ago ... a little bit unwise, hm. Let's do it simple, what I can not find and see here, using my internet now? Can you tell me, if you have such information, of course?

When he enters office there was Arab Spring like uprisings in Moscow and Petersburg and now, he's the second coming of Christ to many of the RW posting here.
It was not like Arab Spring, probably that's how you could see it from the West through the prism of Western media (similar to many Russians who were watching Russian TV which were pretending that there are no any protests at all) and through the prism of your friends in Russia if they support our opposition, those days anyone who were following "Echo of Moscow", for example, could feel the same, I personaly was very proud of those protests, but at the same time I completely realize that majority of Russians didn't support them, mostly because people just don't care.
As for "the second coming of Christ", you are very wrong about it. That fact we are not shouting "Putin is evil" in every corner doesn't mean we see him as a god. Don't run to extremes, please. There are people in Russia who see him as a god, I have no doubt, but I see none of them on RWD.
Many guys here are entrapped themselves with thought "Putin is aggressor and dictator", it makes them blind and not able to see any positive outcomes. Open your mind a little and try to see whole picture, make an attempt to understand other POV, POV of Russian people who live in Russia and who would not tell you what you want to hear, because they want you to think good about them. Forget for a minute that you are American and put yourself in Russian shoes. It's almost impossible, most guys here are too busy trying "to wake up Russians" and don't bother themselves with any doubts, but if you are a smart person, you can try, at least. I don't ask you to change your mind and accept ours (mine), I only want you to understand and stop calling us names just because we don't support your opinion.

(http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag20/Jam_live/1618493_10152972743360931_353210180_n_zps5d016b27.jpg)

Picture says: This is a thuth (правда), and this is a truth (правда). But that is an absolute truth (истина). Any truth is only one side of absolute truth.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 10:39:20 AM
That's pretty much how the cards fall as I see it. It just so happens my wife is Ukrainian and I am on the opposite team on this one. Sucks Putin seems to be playing his hand so much better than those we have in power. I read a quick opinion on why Russia should invade and if half of what the author says is true it makes sense for Putin to roll on in or use everything in his power to implement a pro Russian government. I will let the experts here pick it apart for inconsistencies.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14808#.U01moFc7bic (http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/14808#.U01moFc7bic)

Heh. seems to me he is peddling his business.
 
Using his logic, Israel should invade NYC because there is a huge jewish diaspora who supports Israel's expansionism and bellicosity in the middle east.
 
Why don't we have Mexico invade California and Texas?
 
And maybe Canada can take Maine?
 
Heh, while we are at it let's have Portugal invade Brasil. Boy, would Portugal strike it rich here!?!?!
 
Can you think of any other stupid scenario?
 
Why don't we bring back Attila, Gengis, Adolf and Nap? Those guys definitely were born on the wrong era. Today they would be idolized.
 
What world order. We already forgot why we HAD a world order. Maybe we should have another REAL war.
 
Whadda ya say Alex? Up for it? Got any kids that can have their heads blown off?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 10:41:35 AM
Are you this clueless?  Russia invaded and annexed Crimea!!!!!

Annexed - yes. Invaded - no. 

Whichever way you call it majority of Crimean seem to be happy about it. So what is YOUR complaint? You can still stay in your wife's Crimean apartment, just need a visa, that's all.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:42:31 AM
I am on the opposite team on this one.
That's a main issue, everyone is choosing a team and see "another team" as an enemy, no matter what... Nobody listen another side, as usual, because is busy with talking.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 10:44:34 AM
That's a main issue, everyone is choosing a team and see "another team" as an enemy, no matter what... Nobody listen another side, as usual, because is busy with talking.

Somehow you think that Ukraine is on the same side of Russia? Or is it maybe that Ukraine don't exist and are just misguided?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 10:47:33 AM

Actually, what they call 'поребрик' are curbstones - stones or blocks used to form curbs/бордюры
where I live and in most places across Russia (except St. Petersburg, I guess)  the word 'поребрик' is not used to mean a curb. Muscovites often say in jest - calling a curb 'поребрик'  is sure to reveal your 'tourist from St. Petersburg' status.

(http://lamcdn.net/lookatme.ru/post-cover/ceJrxWCGIadB3w5jIdSRUg-default.jpg)

Have you looked at the picture you yourself posted? :-)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 15, 2014, 10:48:26 AM
Annexed - yes. Invaded - no. 

Whichever way you call it majority of Crimean seem to be happy about it. So what is YOUR complaint? You can still stay in your wife's Crimean apartment, just need a visa, that's all.

No, invaded is the correct word. Yes 97 % of all Crimea is happy right ? Keep believing that one, LOL.
 YOU ARE CLUELESS.....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 10:50:02 AM
Annexed - yes. Invaded - no. 

How does your moral compass square this? I find it interesting.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:56:09 AM
Somehow you think that Ukraine is on the same side of Russia? Or is it maybe that Ukraine don't exist and are just misguided?
TBH, I don't understand your first question. We have here two teams - Ukrainian and Russian. How they can be on the same side?
Now, Ukraine is almost doesn't exist as a state, it's very weak and poor, I have no idea how they are going to improve situation.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:59:04 AM
YOU ARE CLUELESS.....
What an unassailable argument...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:01:01 AM

Somehow you think that Ukraine is on the same side of Russia? Or is it maybe that Ukraine don't exist and are just misguided?

The thing is there is no such thing as the whole united Ukraine. Your family friends may be of one opinion, miners in Donetsk - another. You picked up one side because it goes along with what you were told all your life and because your wife is of the same opinion. And now everything you read or see you'll be only picking up arguments to support this point of view.

Saying RW's on the forum have no access to information apart from Russian channels is an insult. I am bilingual plus I can understand Ukrainian so surely I can access wider range of information than an average forum member.

And in the end I found esteemed members disapproval hilarious. You ask an average MOB-er one year ago why he went to Ukraine for a wife instead of Russia and the reasons are
1. no need for visa
2. women are less spoiled (suspect something to do with ....eh....ever so slightly like 4 times less GDP per capita...)

And now look at ya, all protecting democracy and condemn evil Russia lol......Couple more weeks and even ML will sign for Ukrainian anti terrorist squad. Women power rules lol
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 11:01:45 AM
Now, Ukraine is almost doesn't exist as a state, it's very weak and poor, I have no idea how they are going to improve situation.

You have summed up the Russian mentality on the situation.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 11:01:50 AM
TBH, I don't understand your first question. We have here two teams - Ukrainian and Russian. How they can be on the same side?
Now, Ukraine is almost doesn't exist as a state, it's very weak and poor, I have no idea how they are going to improve situation.

Okay, so I guess I misunderstood your statement.
 
Also, Ukraine is TRYING to exist. However, it seems Putin has other plans.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:02:01 AM

No, invaded is the correct word. Yes 97 % of all Crimea is happy right ? Keep believing that one, LOL.
 YOU ARE CLUELESS.....

And you know better how exactly?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:04:45 AM
You have summed up the Russian mentality on the situation.

Remind me current Ukraine credit rating please? Also any reasonable assessment of how strong current Ukrainian government is?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 11:06:39 AM
You have summed up the Russian mentality on the situation.
You are willing to think whatever you want, of course, but there are some European experts (none of them are Russian so I'm not sure they have same mentality) who are saying the same.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 11:08:57 AM
Remind me current Ukraine credit rating please? Also any reasonable assessment of how strong current Ukrainian government is?

Like many countries. Not good. Its still not justification to invade and annex. I assume you would agree with the US annexing Cuba?

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:13:21 AM


 YOU ARE CLUELESS.....

It's always a pleasure to listen to a well-informed and well argued even opposite point of view.

Good job you have such good understanding of world politics.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 11:16:44 AM
Also, Ukraine is TRYING to exist. However, it seems Putin has other plans.
Yes, they are trying... please, leave Putin alone for a minute, he is not that omnipotent, and think about that what Ukraine have to deal with now, economics mostly, not politics. They have no money and have a lot of debt, population is inactive, they want somebody to come and rescue them (EU)... but there is no magic, you know.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:16:58 AM
Like many countries. Not good. Its still not justification to invade and annex. I assume you would agree with the US annexing Cuba?

Actually I address your opposing opinion to a statement that Ukraine is a weak and poor country.
Please can you keep up with what you yourself have said?

And no, Ukrainian credit rating is NOT like many countries. It's CCC which is very low.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 11:19:57 AM
The thing is there is no such thing as the whole united Ukraine. Your family friends may be of one opinion, miners in Donetsk - another. You picked up one side because it goes along with what you were told all your life and because your wife is of the same opinion. And now everything you read or see you'll be only picking up arguments to support this point of view.
 

Ahh, this is where you are half wrong. I picked one side because of what I was TAUGHT all my life.
 
Now, that my wife and inlaws told me? You have no clue how far off you are there. Let's say that I always got the standard answer: You don't understand. Every time I tried to discuss the situation, that is what I got. I remember once being so frustrated I told them that when they open their eyes, it will be too late. My wife asked me if I was angry at her family. Of course not. I was so frustrated because I cared so much for them. Now their eyes are wide open and now it is too late.
 

Saying RW's on the forum have no access to information apart from Russian channels is an insult. I am bilingual plus I can understand Ukrainian so surely I can access wider range of information than an average forum member.


I hope that was not directed at me since I have never said that to you.
 

And in the end I found esteemed members disapproval hilarious. You ask an average MOB-er one year ago why he went to Ukraine for a wife instead of Russia and the reasons are
1. no need for visa
2. women are less spoiled (suspect something to do with ....eh....ever so slightly like 4 times less GDP per capita...)

And now look at ya, all protecting democracy and condemn evil Russia lol......Couple more weeks and even ML will sign for Ukrainian anti terrorist squad. Women power rules lol

Well, I made my feelings perfectly clear so I'm assuming this was not directed at me.
 
But just in case, Putin miscalculated bad and his true colors came out with this move.
 
Here is the unfortunate state of affairs.
 
Putin is trying very hard to recreate the only glory he knows, the USSR where they were a superpower. The unfortunate fact is that today they are neither the USSR nor a superpower. As a matter of fact, they are borderline becoming another North Korea. You don't seem to understand that in the span of maybe a year Russia can and may be on their knees because the only thing they can barter are her natural resources and guess what happens when business people do when their suppliers become unstable? They shop somewhere else. Are you willing to live in an enclosed society, ALL OVER AGAIN?
 
I'll stop here.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 11:22:44 AM
I assume you would agree with the US annexing Cuba?
What about Cubans? Would they agree? According their life, I guess, they would agree. So why not?
But you have to keep in mind that we care about Cuba much less than you care about Crimea.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ghost of moon goddess on April 15, 2014, 11:25:04 AM
Have you looked at the picture you yourself posted? :-)

I have! Had you looked inside that picture book, you would have gotten the idea why I posted it  ;D

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 11:27:19 AM
But you have to keep in mind that we care about Cuba much less than you care about Crimea.  ;)

I don't think so. I cant even imagine the out cry and tears of the world if the US took control of Cuba.

The internet is not big enough for the grief.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 11:27:49 AM
Yes, they are trying... please, leave Putin alone for a minute, he is not that omnipotent,
 

LMAO
 
When Putin says "Jump" close to 10 million Muscovites ask "How high?"
 
and think about that what Ukraine have to deal with now, economics mostly, not politics. They have no money and have a lot of debt, population is inactive, they want somebody to come and rescue them (EU)... but there is no magic, you know.  :rolleyes:

Again LMAO
 
No politics, eh?
 
So Ukraine secures an IMF loan of over $14 billion usd. And now Putin Gazprom says Ukraine owes them $22 billion and if they don't pay Europe will have no gas.
 
And your concern of the population inactive and poor? That works wonders for the conquering army. Didn't you know that? For reference look at the US entering Iraq.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 11:29:39 AM
I don't think so. I cant even imagine the out cry and tears of the world if the US took control of Cuba.

The internet is not big enough for the grief.

What an ignorant statement!!!
 
You are DEFINITELY NOT helping our cause there, bub.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:34:48 AM
Do you thin I am not worried about future impact? Of course I am, I am horrified of what future will bring.
You tell me how Putin could afford a hostile government on the border? Or how he can now afford civil war on the border? You like many people think hear democracy and think oh these are good changes....I do not care what things are called. I look at what they bring.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: pokerintherear on April 15, 2014, 11:35:29 AM

What an ignorant statement!!!
 
You are DEFINITELY NOT helping our cause there, bub.

WTF are you screaming about? Do you not think the world would object to the US annexing Cuba?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 15, 2014, 11:39:59 AM
...Saying RW's on the forum have no access to information apart from Russian channels is an insult. I am bilingual plus I can understand Ukrainian so surely I can access wider range of information than an average forum member....

LMAO!

Yeah, well, you're still not a match to an average RWDer. Most of these guys are privileged to top secret information not available to the meager Joe Public. They rely on 'Yahoo Online', you don't.


Quote
...And in the end I found esteemed members disapproval hilarious. You ask an average MOB-er one year ago why he went to Ukraine for a wife instead of Russia and the reasons are
1. no need for visa
2. women are less spoiled (suspect something to do with ....eh....ever so slightly like 4 times less GDP per capita...)

And now look at ya, all protecting democracy and condemn evil Russia lol......Couple more weeks and even ML will sign for Ukrainian anti terrorist squad. Women power rules lol


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:40:37 AM

LMAO
 
When Putin says "Jump" close to 10 million Muscovites ask "How high?"
 
Again LMAO
 
No politics, eh?
 
So Ukraine secures an IMF loan of over $14 billion usd. And now Putin Gazprom says Ukraine owes them $22 billion and if they don't pay Europe will have no gas.
 


Really? I heard they jumped on Maidan? Something about "Who does not jump is Russian". Hilariously stupid, ask your in laws. LMAO.

Nah, Russia should not request her debts to be paid at all. Indeed. Especially by the openly hostile government. You really think Russians should give Ukrainians more credit? Since Kiev likes EU so much I fear EU will have to pay for Kiev;s gas from now on.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 11:40:53 AM
Putin is trying very hard to recreate the only glory he knows, the USSR where they were a superpower.
As far as it is not possible, this statement actually can be read as "Putin is a moron", while he is not a moron and he is not an idiot, he is very smart person, because if he was not very smart, he would not be in power so many years. Don't underestimate him, an underestimation of the enemy is a perfect way to lose a battle. IMHO, he is trying to create an analogue of EU on basis of USSR, which is not bad idea at all.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 15, 2014, 11:41:48 AM
Do you thin I am not worried about future impact? Of course I am, I am horrified of what future will bring.
You tell me how Putin could afford a hostile government on the border? Or how he can now afford civil war on the border? You like many people think hear democracy and think oh these are good changes....I do not care what things are called. I look at what they bring.

The only civil war occuring on the border is the one your holy Putin is trying to foment by using his special forces to slip into Ukraine and start it all....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:44:56 AM
I actually suspect all this Kiev hostility is just they do not really want to pay their debts...Simples.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 11:49:54 AM
And your concern of the population inactive and poor?
It's not my concern. Not my country = not my concern.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 11:51:06 AM

The only civil war occuring on the border is the one your holy Putin is trying to foment by using his special forces to slip into Ukraine and start it all....

Yes I have read Washington memo on the matter. (You can google it). They supported the statement with two arguments

1. Men are well organised (obviously Ukrainians are not capable of being well organised, we all know that. - just ask an MOB-er, there women are always late after all)
2. Kiev government says so. (That of course even beats the "you're clueless argument)

I am sure you are better informed than your government and can make their memo more fireproof by adding your analysis.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 11:58:23 AM
Men are well organised (obviously Ukrainians are not capable of being well organised, we all know that. - just ask an MOB-er, there women are always late after all)
Yep, I was thinking about it too, such statements don't put Ukrainians in a favourable light...  ::)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 12:01:32 PM
WTF are you screaming about? Do you not think the world would object to the US annexing Cuba?

My sincerest apology. I read it again and realized I didn't see the "t" in "cant".
 
Honest mistake. Sorry.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2014, 12:02:37 PM

Ukraine started a military offensive against the east Ukrainian militia men. They have some balls. I was wrong to think they would wait until Thursday's meeting with Russia, EU, and America. I guess they don't have faith anything will be accomplished in that meeting.


It's almost certain a few Russian citizens will get killed in this military operation. Russia will have to decide if war/occupation is next if the Ukraine military successfully crushes any chance of civil war.


http://news.yahoo.com/separatists-tighten-grip-east-ukraine-obama-putin-talk-000940888--finance.html?vp=1
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 12:13:11 PM
As far as it is not possible, this statement actually can be read as "Putin is a moron", while he is not a moron and he is not an idiot, he is very smart person, because if he was not very smart, he would not be in power so many years. Don't underestimate him, an underestimation of the enemy is a perfect way to lose a battle. IMHO, he is trying to create an analogue of EU on basis of USSR, which is not bad idea at all.

I'm sorry if you took it that I was calling him a moron. I don't think he is a moron and he should not be underestimated at all.
 
However, I see him as a very dangerous man. Any person who manages to change the rules to install himself, "democratically" as the leader of a nation is in my book a dangerous person.
 
Someone would try to do that here and you'd have a revolt. If Obama would try that, not only a revolt but a bloody civil war.
 
I believe this can be attributed to different upbringings. For example, I was reading the Moscow Times and this passage was very telling to me:
 
Quote
Viktoria also praised President Vladimir Putin.
"Putin deserves respect because he holds Russia with an iron fist," she said.

The Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/in-east-ukraine-town-residents-sharply-divided-over-pro-russian-movement/498094.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 15, 2014, 12:15:09 PM
Annexed - yes. Invaded - no. 

Joke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9T39W7l3uk

Can it finally sink in your mind that right now Russia is nothing more than a liar.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 12:23:04 PM
Joke?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9T39W7l3uk

Can it finally sink in your mind that right now Russia is nothing more than a liar.

You can not invade when you have been invited; Russia does not recognize the government sitting in Kiev now.

How do you feel about tanks in Slavyansk?

Кошка бросила котят, это Путин виноват......
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 12:28:32 PM
You can not invade when you have been invited; Russia does not recognize the government sitting in Kiev now.

How do you feel about tanks in Slavyansk?

Кошка бросила котят, это Путин виноват......

Invited??? Hmmm (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/tapped-calls-show-russian-servicemen-active-in-ukraine-security-service-says/498044.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 12:35:51 PM
Національний банк прийняв рішення про тимчасове відключення 14 банків від Системи підтвердження угод на міжбанківському валютному ринку. Такі дії регулятор здійснив, ураховуючи дестабілізаційний вплив рівня обмінних курсів гривні, що застосовуються цими банками на міжбанківському валютному ринку, та формування ними негативних очікувань щодо майбутньої курсової динаміки гривні.

 

Зазначений захід спрямований на стабілізацію ринкових очікувань щодо обмінного курсу гривні та сприятиме прийняттю більш виважених управлінських рішень суб’єктами валютного ринку.


For guys who are planning on travel and whos relatives are in Ukraine. Ukraine Central bank cancelled forex licenses of 14 banks so bear in mind it might get hard to get dollars.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 15, 2014, 12:37:27 PM
You can not invade when you have been invited; Russia does not recognize the government sitting in Kiev now.

I am sorry but now we getting to totally absurd level. Keep coming up with childish excuses if it makes you feel better.

How do you feel about tanks in Slavyansk?

My brother is in one of the troops there. I guess it easy for you to sit there and come up with ridiculous and childish excuses. What is next? Banderovci? Nazis?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 12:40:18 PM

Invited??? Hmmm (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/tapped-calls-show-russian-servicemen-active-in-ukraine-security-service-says/498044.html)

Thank you,, I have been already provided with ORIGINAL info by Miss A and I explained my thought about it. I am not interested in articles with second hand OPINIONS.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 15, 2014, 12:44:08 PM
Thank you,, I have been already provided with ORIGINAL info by Miss A and I explained my thought about it. I am not interested in articles with second hand OPINIONS.

Interesting response.
 
I guess Yulia is correct.
 
Quote
That is the most disturbing part for me — that the Russian people strongly support what is happening, that a majority of Russians actually believe that Western-financed fascists have taken power in Kiev and that the people of eastern Ukraine have been pushed into the desperate act of arming themselves against bands of fascist nationalists intent upon their destruction. And most amazing of all is that even the people of southeast Ukraine believe it, even though there is no evidence of a threat to their safety.
 

Ayatollah Putin (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/ayatollah-putin/498088.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 12:47:21 PM
You may think I am ignorant, that,s fine. But why do you think you are better informed then people in the South East Ukraine?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on April 15, 2014, 12:50:20 PM
I am sorry but now we getting to totally absurd level. Keep coming up with childish excuses if it makes you feel better.

My brother is in one of the troops there.


I am sorry to hear that.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: steveboy on April 15, 2014, 12:50:42 PM
I bet u understand zero Russian to judge about we are lying or not. And I understand enouth English to see an opposite thing.
Inhale, exhale and relax. Nobody pretends on Alaska.  As for me I want to censorship news in Russia for using word Ukraina.  Tired  to hear about the next maidan, let them go where they want without Russian gas and money.

I think Unless you LIVE in Ukraine or Russia really no body here has a clue about what is really going on. Being married to a Ukrainian women making a few trips to Ukraine in your life , listening to hearsay and sitting at home in the US as an arm chair critic and watching Tv cackling on about stuff you don't even know about is about as good as it gets on the subject of Propaganda.
I have never heard so much ***** from people living thousands of miles away from a country they know little about :deadhorse:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chelseaboy on April 15, 2014, 01:16:19 PM
I'd say the vast majority of people living in Russia don't have a clue what is really going on in Ukraine. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: steveboy on April 15, 2014, 01:23:49 PM
I'd say the vast majority of people living in Russia don't have a clue what is really going on in Ukraine. :rolleyes:

Thats funny!! I think you will find a few million Russians living in Ukraine :deadhorse: And a fair few, well millions in Ukraine speak Russian as their first language :deadhorse: Donkey!!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 15, 2014, 01:37:40 PM
Steveboy, and by any chance you know why so many Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Daveman on April 15, 2014, 01:52:59 PM
I think Unless you LIVE in Ukraine or Russia really no body here has a clue about what is really going on. Being married to a Ukrainian women making a few trips to Ukraine in your life , listening to hearsay and sitting at home in the US as an arm chair critic and watching Tv cackling on about stuff you don't even know about is about as good as it gets on the subject of Propaganda.
I have never heard so much ***** from people living thousands of miles away from a country they know little about :deadhorse:

Probably, even those who live there don't have a complete clue either as the propaganda, rumor mills, and disinformation machines roll.

The ones with the most clues, aside from the instigators, would be the ones actively participating.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: steveboy on April 15, 2014, 02:07:44 PM
Steveboy, and by any chance you know why so many Ukrainians speak Russian as their first language?

It was forced upon them?? :-X
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: steveboy on April 15, 2014, 02:09:15 PM
Probably, even those who live there don't have a complete clue either as the propaganda, rumor mills, and disinformation machines roll.

The ones with the most clues, aside from the instigators, would be the ones actively participating.

I am actually actively participating:)) Give me a short time and I will post my pictures here 8)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 15, 2014, 02:17:12 PM
I think Unless you LIVE in Ukraine or Russia really no body here has a clue about what is really going on.



Do you have a clue Steveboy? Tell us what's on your mind. The only person who knows what's going to happen is Putin. He alone is going to decide to back off or continue to proceed on keeping Ukraine within his influence.


There's a dispute here on whether or not Russia was invited in Ukraine. If you are for the pro West government, Russia was not invited. If you believe Yanukovych is still president as Putin claims, then Russia was invited into Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chelseaboy on April 15, 2014, 03:44:04 PM
Can't wait for the resident forum expert  on all things Russian..steveboy..to enlighten us all as to how Putin thinks   :popcorn:

With all his mouth the local Brit exile must be privy to Putins and Ukraine's various leadership inner sanctums. :rolleyes:

Hey steveboy,maybe you can start by giving us proof about how those poor ethnic Russian seperatists who use Russian as their first language in Ukraine have been so persecuted by Ukrainian authorities and Ukrainian people that they felt the need to commit violence and invite Russia into invading the country .

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: alex330 on April 15, 2014, 04:04:54 PM
Heh. seems to me he is peddling his business.
 
Using his logic, Israel should invade NYC because there is a huge jewish diaspora who supports Israel's expansionism and bellicosity in the middle east.

I thought many of his other points made sense for Putin (including personal gain) and Russia's security.


Maybe we should have another REAL war.
 
Whadda ya say Alex? Up for it? Got any kids that can have their heads blown off?

There will always be wars and nobody will ever be able to change that. And some wars are more justified than others. My brothers three tours in Iraq for oil was certainly not justified. Unfortunately for Ukraine this may need to be one of those times. As many have previously said, this is not Americas war. Should a war occur it will fall on my father in law and my wife's girlfriends husbands who have all been served draft notices or signed up voluntarily. Even babushka keeps asking us to give her an AK47 so she can shoot the invaders, yet she cannot walk out the front door.... But this is for them to decide if it is something they want and we should support them as best we can.

My family has been cannon fodder for hundreds of years, and before that catapult targets. Should there be a great war or a war that is justified it will fall upon myself and my brothers to bear that burden. And I will be thankful it was us and not our children who were called on.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 15, 2014, 04:11:19 PM
I'm worried about what's going on in south Nevada with the Bundys and the Federal government about to crush them. http://www.infowars.com/judge-napolitano-fearful-of-whats-coming-next-in-bundy-dispute/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GregfromGa on April 15, 2014, 04:22:16 PM
I'm worried about what's going on in south Nevada with the Bundys and the Federal government about to crush them. http://www.infowars.com/judge-napolitano-fearful-of-whats-coming-next-in-bundy-dispute/

You mean the rancher that has freeloaded with his cattle for the last 20 years?  99% of the ranchers pay their grazing fee but not this snapperhead.He doesn't even recognize our federal government. The guy is  as crazy as a loon.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 15, 2014, 04:22:39 PM
Thanks for comparing us to China, that explain pretty good how some (many?) Americans see situation in Russia...  :rolleyes:
Judging current situation with internet by your experience 8 years ago ... a little bit unwise, hm. Let's do it simple, what I can not find and see here, using my internet now? Can you tell me, if you have such information, of course?[/b]

Not only China but, Iran and North Korea, too.  ;D I asked you a well reasoned and honest question. If you chose to take offense at it, that is your problem, not mine. Please do not confuse me with your run of the mill poster at RWD. I've called you no names, I've called no RWD women posters here names, regardless of their political views or "team" they may be siding. I have no team. I have a Russian wife. That does not put me on a "team". My political views are mine. I tend to see things/events in terms of right and wrong by my own views and moral compass.
 
Quote
It was not like Arab Spring, probably that's how you could see it from the West through the prism of Western media (similar to many Russians who were watching Russian TV which were pretending that there are no any protests at all) and through the prism of your friends in Russia if they support our opposition, those days anyone who were following "Echo of Moscow", for example, could feel the same, I personaly was very proud of those protests, but at the same time I completely realize that majority of Russians didn't support them, mostly because people just don't care.

To me, it was very much like the Arab spring uprisings. Maybe that is just how I viewed it, maybe not. Russians were tired of the political system and the yolk of Putin. I saw it then and still do now as protest of Putin. You can declare that all I see is through a prism and to many degrees you are correct. Not so much in others. I'm not stupid and I am able to see and discern things for myself. My friends are all intellectual educated people and they have formulated their own views, from their own lives and not just spouting off something to appease or impress me. They don't have to. I do agree with you in that as a majority, most just do not care.

Quote
As for "the second coming of Christ", you are very wrong about it. That fact we are not shouting "Putin is evil" in every corner doesn't mean we see him as a god. Don't run to extremes, please. There are people in Russia who see him as a god, I have no doubt, but I see none of them on RWD.

Putin had a 47% approval rating after his last election. Now he has a 70% approval rating. I believe that is from independent sources. This is since the protests. This despite a crumbling infrastructure, a dying ruble and gas prices that have never been higher. That should give every Russian something to think about. Especially, in light of his aggression into Ukraine. I only directed my question to you because you seemed the most reasoned of the RW posting on the subject. Several of these others are worked up into a froth and equate disagreement with Russia hating. Not so much the case with you.

Quote
Many guys here are entrapped themselves with thought "Putin is aggressor and dictator", it makes them blind and not able to see any positive outcomes. Open your mind a little and try to see whole picture, make an attempt to understand other POV, POV of Russian people who live in Russia and who would not tell you what you want to hear, because they want you to think good about them. Forget for a minute that you are American and put yourself in Russian shoes. It's almost impossible, most guys here are too busy trying "to wake up Russians" and don't bother themselves with any doubts, but if you are a smart person, you can try, at least. I don't ask you to change your mind and accept ours (mine), I only want you to understand and stop calling us names just because we don't support your opinion.

There are no positives outcomes in Putin's aggression if your are Ukrainian. I make a living out of understanding others POV on a daily basis. I'm not trying to wake up or convert a single Russian or anyone else. I, out of my personal curiosity, just wish to understand the mindset that can support the actions of Putin. As I said, I am married to a Russian. My shoes have a little Russian soul to them everyday. I formulate my own opinion based on my discovery of truths and logic processes. I do not look for others approval on my opinions or anything else. Annexation/invasion tomata/tomato. One verifiable fact remains. Russian troops occupy Crimea.

I'm scared. You and everybody on this planet should be scared as well. Putin is inept as a leader. Obama is inept as a leader and both are sitting next to a button that could easily lead to nuclear destruction of the planet. This based on the whims of egomaniacs. Yours is no better than mine and neither has our well being in mind. You know?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 15, 2014, 07:28:51 PM
You can not invade when you have been invited;

By whom?  I didn't see the government of Ukraine issuing any invitation to the Russians.  Crimea was already an autonomous region, enjoying far more independence from central government than any other part of the country.  If Crimea was an incredibly oppressed region, gaining nothing from being part of Ukraine, I could perhaps understand a majority of the people wishing to have a better standard of living by becoming part of another country.  Everybody here knows that nothing could be further from the truth - Crimea has been the first choice holiday destination for the majority of Ukrainians, as well as many other Europeans (and even North Americans), with a standard of living for many people that would be the envy of a lot of those in "mainland" Ukraine.
 
Justme100 made the point in one of her posts that her salary as a public servant has now doubled (or trebled?  I can't remember the exact details) to match what Russians in Russia receive.  She also acknowledged that many people will lose their jobs and struggle to survive while Crimea adjusts to being part of Russia.  Now what will happen?   All the tourism dries up, and many people whose sole income is from that source will starve.  It will take years for Crimea to recover from what has happened in just a few short weeks.
 
Russia does not recognize the government sitting in Kiev now.

This is something that I'm still struggling to understand.  Even in Ukraine (just like the USA and many other republics), the President is NOT part of Parliament (or Congress, or whatever it might be called).  It is exactly the same government, with the same members of the Rada, that was elected in 2012!  Sure, the leadership has changed, but so has my government's at various times.  That doesn't change the fact that it's still the same people in power.
 
You don't vote for a leader of a Parliamentary party to become the government - you vote for the party itself, whether through an MMP system (New Zealand and Ukraine), some other method of proportional representation (most of Europe), or straight constituency elections (United Kingdom and many others).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:08:52 PM
Not only China but, Iran and North Korea, too.  ;D I asked you a well reasoned and honest question. If you chose to take offense at it, that is your problem, not mine.
Oh, you didn't understand my comment.  ;D I thanked you for making it clear how you see Russia. There was no offense, there was your idea, your image of Russia from what you make up your other ideas about life in Russia, your comment told me what kind of person you are, how it could offend me? It's just what you choose to believe in. You believe that Russia is the same as China, N.Korea and Iran, I am sure it's not. The rest of discussion has no sense, because our views are based on completely different ideas. It's like if atheist would argue with strong believer...  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:24:35 PM
I'm scared. You and everybody on this planet should be scared as well. Putin is inept as a leader. Obama is inept as a leader and both are sitting next to a button that could easily lead to nuclear destruction of the planet.
I have no idea why are you are or others are scared. I tend to think that people are rational creations. Both Obama and Putin are not insane, we could not like them, but let's don't go into hysteric. EU is full of rational people, who are thinking about money all the day every day. Nuclear destructuion is not going to bring any money to anyone.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 15, 2014, 10:38:24 PM
By whom?  I didn't see the government of Ukraine issuing any invitation to the Russians. ...
bla-bla-bla... How long we are going to beat the air? What done is done. Crimea is a part of RF now, do you like, don't you like it, do you agree, don't you agree... you can't change it, so what's the point of this ":arguing:"?
Quote
Now what will happen?   All the tourism dries up, and many people whose sole income is from that source will starve.  It will take years for Crimea to recover from what has happened in just a few short weeks.
Making forecasts is like playing lottery, the only diffenrence, with lottery you have a chance to win.  ;) Summer is coming... let's wait a little bit and see what will happen. If you are so excited, you can stake on.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 16, 2014, 05:04:13 AM
bla-bla-bla... How long we are going to beat the air? What done is done. Crimea is a part of RF now, do you like, don't you like it, do you agree, don't you agree... you can't change it, so what's the point of this ":arguing:"?

No, its not. Legally Crimea is still part of Ukraine. Part of Ukraine that is occupied by Russia.

Get your terminology right.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 16, 2014, 05:42:05 AM
Oh, you didn't understand my comment.  ;D I thanked you for making it clear how you see Russia. There was no offense, there was your idea, your image of Russia from what you make up your other ideas about life in Russia, your comment told me what kind of person you are, how it could offend me? It's just what you choose to believe in. You believe that Russia is the same as China, N.Korea and Iran, I am sure it's not. The rest of discussion has no sense, because our views are based on completely different ideas. It's like if atheist would argue with strong believer...  :D

I very well understood your statement die cast and my statement doesn't reflect at all how I see Russia. Oh no, I see Russia as it is. I've been to Russia many times. The first time was 8 years ago. The comparison of your government to China and others is real whether you wish to acknowledge it or not. Stings don't it?  ;D As long as your government can keep it's constituency in the dark, the corruption and theft is easier and broader. My comparison was only the Russian government to the others. Please don't assume anything on my behalf  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on April 16, 2014, 07:58:02 AM
You believe that Russia is the same as China, N.Korea and Iran, I am sure it's not.

I agree with die_cast on this one. Russia and China don't even belong in the same sentence. One country is going places and will soon become the largest economy in the world, while the other country is going backwards and has a shrinking population. Guess which description is applicable to Russia and which one is applicable to China.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 16, 2014, 08:04:39 AM
I agree with die_cast on this one. Russia and China don't even belong in the same sentence. One country is going places and will soon become the largest economy in the world, while the other country is going backwards and has a shrinking population. Guess which description is applicable to Russia and which one is applicable to China.

Sure they do when the discussion is corrupt totalitarian regimes
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 16, 2014, 09:56:52 AM
I am not aware of any IDENTIFIED Russian army colonels or agents.

http://ru.tsn.ua/politika/glavarem-diversantov-na-vostoke-ukrainy-okazalsya-specnazovec-iz-rossii-sbu-360821.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on April 16, 2014, 05:44:40 PM
Just an observation, this time round there doesn't seem to be anything on the social media of western countries about moves to boycott Russian made crap in order to punish them. Normally for a significant world event, there would be some activist groups attempting to do something like that.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 16, 2014, 06:24:42 PM
bla-bla-bla... How long we are going to beat the air? What done is done. Crimea is a part of RF now, do you like, don't you like it, do you agree, don't you agree... you can't change it, so what's the point of this " :arguing: "?

Sure, what's done is done - that doesn't mean that what happened had any semblance of legality, whatever you and the rest of Russia may think, nor does it mean that the rest of the world should like it.  In any case, there's no guarantee that Russia will be able to, or will want to, hold onto it for an extended period of time, especially if it becomes too much of a drain on the Kremlin's coffers.
 
Making forecasts is like playing lottery, the only diffenrence, with lottery you have a chance to win.  ;) Summer is coming... let's wait a little bit and see what will happen. If you are so excited, you can stake on.

How could I possibly be excited about the prospect of people dying because your country has invaded (sorry, "annexed") part of another?  Are you really that callous?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GregfromGa on April 16, 2014, 06:49:31 PM
Callous isn't a word that most Russians or Ukrainians are familiar with for that matter but you hit the nail square on the head.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 17, 2014, 01:49:21 AM
Legally Crimea is still part of Ukraine
And that's why Ukrainian companies and banks are leaving Crimea now, because it's a part of Ukraine...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 17, 2014, 01:51:59 AM
Stings don't it?  ;D
Why would your opinion make me feel anything?  ;D It's just your opinion, it's just words.  :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: die_cast on April 17, 2014, 02:01:15 AM
How could I possibly be excited about the prospect of people dying because your country has invaded (sorry, "annexed") part of another?  Are you really that callous?
So now you are saying that Crimeans not just will starve, but they will die? And it's me who is callous?  :rolleyes:
And yes, I see here many people who are excited to see how Crimea will starve as a part of Russia, and even better if Russians in Russia will starve, because they are such bad people, they invaded Ukraine, they deserve it, right? Let's punish Russians! We can't do it with weapons, but we can wish them to die.
Sure, I'm callous, but you are just sweet white fluffy kittens.  :crackwhip:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BC on April 17, 2014, 04:14:55 AM
Doesn't it all go back to human nature?  When a situation is bad then look for change?

Is it possible that many in UA are simply disgruntled with years of problems in UA and simply want something new?  What's wrong with a little revolution now and then, especially with the Crimea experience?

If the government is not able to appease the needs of their citizens and treat them fairly then I see nothing wrong, especially if little or no blood is shed in the process.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 17, 2014, 05:27:01 AM
So now you are saying that Crimeans not just will starve, but they will die? And it's me who is callous?  :rolleyes:
And yes, I see here many people who are excited to see how Crimea will starve as a part of Russia, and even better if Russians in Russia will starve, because they are such bad people, they invaded Ukraine, they deserve it, right? Let's punish Russians! We can't do it with weapons, but we can wish them to die.
Sure, I'm callous, but you are just sweet white fluffy kittens.  :crackwhip:

Don't get all defensively sarcastic just because you don't fully understand me.  Nobody, least of all me, wishes anyone to starve to death, and I don't see how you could possibly infer that from what I've written.  My point is that it is a possibility because of what has taken place so far in Crimea; a possibility which has been acknowledged, at least in general terms, by one of your fellow RW who happens to live right in the middle of the affected area.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 17, 2014, 05:38:13 AM
Doesn't it all go back to human nature?  When a situation is bad then look for change?

Is it possible that many in UA are simply disgruntled with years of problems in UA and simply want something new?  What's wrong with a little revolution now and then, especially with the Crimea experience?

If the government is not able to appease the needs of their citizens and treat them fairly then I see nothing wrong, especially if little or no blood is shed in the process.

Russia has been a catalyst to the problems of Ukraine since they left the USSR. It's more about control than change IMO
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 17, 2014, 05:39:43 AM
Why would your opinion make me feel anything?  ;D It's just your opinion, it's just words.  :)

That'd be completely of to you I suppose but the idea that there is a bit of truth to my opinion might make it burn, just a bit  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 17, 2014, 07:14:10 AM
Can someone explain what is going on in here?
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L9MGMNm19I (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L9MGMNm19I)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 17, 2014, 08:27:06 AM
Okay, so who are the Nazis?
 
http://novosti.dn.ua/details/222825 (http://novosti.dn.ua/details/222825)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 17, 2014, 08:41:28 AM


This is where you are wrong. You only have the internet that your internet provider allows you to have. I have witnessed this in Russia first hand albeit it, that was 8 years ago. Russia was the first place where I experienced that the world wide web could only be accessed through a local intranet. I did see it improve over the years but lately appears to have regressed. There is a reason the Iranians, Chinese, North Koreans and a dozen or so other countries access an intranet but don't have access to the world wide web. It's not since Putin became Emperor that restrictions are starting tightening once again in Russia.

No doubt, People are just going to disagree. I have friends in Russia (few) that openly support Putin. I also have others (most) who opposed Putin but wouldn't do it in public, outside of the home or circle of friends. I remember seeing pictures of Putin on the walls of various homes and work places when he was the prime minister and no picture of Medvedev and he was president.

I fond it odd that 4 years most Russians were pissed that Putin changes the constitution so that he could again be President. When he enters office there was Arab Spring like uprisings in Moscow and Petersburg and now, he's the second coming of Christ to many of the RW posting here. Very odd

I came across a Financial Times article that has some bearing on this issue:

Quote
The Russian government is determined to control the internet as part of its quest to tighten the noose around free speech. Under legislation that took effect on February 1, the internet regulator can block websites carrying content that is deemed “extremist” or suspected of inciting mass disturbances – merely on the orders of the procurator-general’s office. The authorities are making good use of their new powers. As of April 13, the procurator-general’s office had ordered 107 such blockages, at least 80 of which targeted pages with political content.

“The internet in Russia is becoming a very different place,” says Sergei Buntman, deputy editor of the liberal radio station Ekho Moskvy. Its website was taken down and only went online again after it stopped hosting a blog by opposition leader Alexei Navalny.

After President Vladimir Putin brought almost all traditional media either directly under state ownership or into a position where they could be indirectly controlled, online news sites, blogs and social media had become the main source of information and debate for his critics.

Although this space is shrinking, experts say it is unlikely to disappear. “Russia is worlds apart from China, which identified the ‘threat’ posed by the internet upfront and made sure the internet that developed there was domesticised from the beginning,” says Steven Wilson, who teaches Russian politics at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University.
 

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/3c8495d0-c0ba-11e3-a74d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2z9nvym7r

The rest of the article is interesting. It begins with a history teacher in Moscow:

Quote
... when the mild-mannered 60-year-old tried to discuss Russia’s annexation of Crimea in class, things almost got out of hand. “My students swore at me and said I wasn’t telling the truth,” he says. “Then they said I didn’t love Russia or the Russian people, and told me to leave the country.”
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 17, 2014, 08:51:15 AM
http://www.bloomberg.com/video/-patriot-games-charlie-rose-02-27-tt2tRQj4Riy0gaDjpenLVA.html (http://www.bloomberg.com/video/-patriot-games-charlie-rose-02-27-tt2tRQj4Riy0gaDjpenLVA.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 09:39:34 AM
More on internet censorships, intranet, web restrictions, etc....

Guys, be careful believing that countries like Iran, China, Russia, India, etc...have very limited, if not censored altogether, access to information via the internet. That can prove dangerous to your internet browsing experience (virtual ignorance).

Consider for a moment, if peoples in these countries can infiltrate, hack, scan, spam, turn-off your TV sets, make you morning coffee, walk your dog - all from the comfort of their highly-restricted and censored computing locations; don't think for a minute they won't have the same full access you do to those silly media-regurgitated *biased news reports* we, here in the *free world*, enjoy everyday.

About the only thing they will likely have difficulty doing is directly asking you if you're done with the sport's page.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2014, 09:55:09 AM
Doesn't it all go back to human nature?  When a situation is bad then look for change?

Is it possible that many in UA are simply disgruntled with years of problems in UA and simply want something new?  What's wrong with a little revolution now and then, especially with the Crimea experience?

If the government is not able to appease the needs of their citizens and treat them fairly then I see nothing wrong, especially if little or no blood is shed in the process.


Ukraine had their revolution and is in the process of changing their government and asking the west for assistance. Most countries and nations can accept that. Russia doesn't accept it because it would take away the influence and control they had over Ukraine's economy that kept it in the dump. Russia didn't have a problem with Ukraine not paying it's gas bill and Crimea belonging to Ukraine when Russia's puppet president was in charge. People want change. They want better. Russia, like an angry ex boyfriend who just got dumped, wants all their gifts back.


Why are some nations so afraid to let Ukraine choose it's destiny through majority vote? I was not happy when Obama won the election but I didn't take up arms and threaten to take my property and secede from America. Ukraine should be allowed to have UN monitors in their country to watch the elections without outside interference. How hard is that for Russia to accept?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 17, 2014, 10:00:01 AM
http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/international/auslandnachrichten/das-luegen-karussell-dreht-sich-immer-schneller-1.18285557 (http://www.nzz.ch/aktuell/international/auslandnachrichten/das-luegen-karussell-dreht-sich-immer-schneller-1.18285557)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 11:02:47 AM

Ukraine had their revolution and is in the process of changing their government and asking the west for assistance. Most countries and nations can accept that. Russia doesn't accept it because it would take away the influence and control they had over Ukraine's economy that kept it in the dump. Russia didn't have a problem with Ukraine not paying it's gas bill and Crimea belonging to Ukraine when Russia's puppet president was in charge. People want change. They want better. Russia, like an angry ex boyfriend who just got dumped, wants all their gifts back.


Why are some nations so afraid to let Ukraine choose it's destiny through majority vote? I was not happy when Obama won the election but I didn't take up arms and threaten to take my property and secede from America. Ukraine should be allowed to have UN monitors in their country to watch the elections without outside interference. How hard is that for Russia to accept?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010)

"...Fraud suspicions and accusations

According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine....
"
 :wallbash:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 17, 2014, 11:19:19 AM
If I remember correctly, the US deposed a lawfully elected President once and we, as a people, were applauded for it. Given that there were no Maidan-type demonstrations where people were gunned down, but everything else was basically the same. At least out President had the decency to resign and didn't take the (gold-plated) kitchen sink with him.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2014, 11:20:06 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_presidential_election,_2010)

"...Fraud suspicions and accusations

According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine....
"
 :wallbash:


You read my debate with LiveFromUkraine earlier in this thread and you bring up wiki to trump it?  :wallbash:


Why go to wiki when you can go to the source? Go to the OSCE website and read their report on Ukraine's last presidential election based on what they monitored. They said the election met most international commitments, not all. Although Central Election Commission (CEC) accepted the election, 33% of the members wrote dissenting opinions. 33% is not a majority but one out three members seen something wrong with Ukraine's last election. That is 33% too much IMO to call the election fair.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 11:24:03 AM
If I remember correctly, the US deposed a lawfully elected President once and we, as a people, were applauded for it. Given that there were no Maidan-type demonstrations where people were gunned down, but everything else was basically the same. At least out President had the decency to resign and didn't take the (gold-plated) kitchen sink with him.

I agree completely.

Legal and due process is what rule of laws are all about. Heck, it even almost happened in the late 90s again, too except it (lawful) didn't see the full validation of the process and wasn't able to fully implement exercising impeachment.

I can only wish the same happened in Ukraine. Unfortunately, not so...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 11:27:38 AM

You read my debate with LiveFromUkraine earlier in this thread and you bring up wiki to trump it?  :wallbash:


Why go to wiki when you can go to the source? Go to the OSCE website and read their report on Ukraine's last presidential election based on what they monitored. They said the election met most international commitments, not all. Although Central Election Commission (CEC) accepted the election, 33% of the members wrote dissenting opinions. 33% is not a majority but one out three members seen something wrong with Ukraine's last election. That is 33% too much IMO to call the election fair.

Translation: 67% said it was fair. Which math do you rely on?

Oh wait, I think I have an idea...

...Why are some nations so afraid to let Ukraine choose it's destiny through majority vote? I was not happy when Obama won the election but I didn't take up arms and threaten to take my property and secede from America. Ukraine should be allowed to have UN monitors in their country to watch the elections without outside interference. How hard is that for Russia to accept?


 :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash: :wallbash:


Tip of the Day-
That F-1 student living in Seattle likely need to be a bit more objective in her views...just sayin'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2014, 12:29:08 PM
Translation: 67% said it was fair. Which math do you rely on?



That 67% who didn't see anything wrong were probably monitoring the elections in west Ukraine.


I know some of you guys badly want to believe that the majority of Ukrainians are pro Russian. I hate to burst your bubble but even Putin doesn't believe this. After the revolution a few months ago, Putin wouldn't need to do anything before the election if the majority of people in Ukraine were pro Russian except beg the UN to come, monitor and verify the next president of Ukraine is pro Russian. Nobody would have to die and the international community will accept Putin's influence over Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 17, 2014, 12:33:14 PM

That 67% who didn't see anything wrong were probably monitoring the elections in west Ukraine.


I know some of you guys badly want to believe that the majority of Ukrainians are pro Russian. I hate to burst your bubble but even Putin doesn't believe this. After the revolution a few months ago, Putin wouldn't need to do anything before the election if the majority of people in Ukraine were pro Russian except beg the UN to come, monitor and verify the next president of Ukraine is pro Russian. Nobody would have to die and the international community will accept Putin's influence over Ukraine.


I hate to burst your bubble, not everyone who voted for Yanu is Pro Russian.  The same as me voting for a Democratic presidential runner doesn't make me a Democrat.   Trying to box these people into categories shows your own bias and ignorance.


That is some whacky logic you're trying to make us drink.  The majority isn't Pro Russian so the elections must have been a scam...  lol
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 12:35:08 PM
BillyB-

When you find yourself with nothing else to say, refrain from doing so because if you do not, more often than not, you begin to fabricate things along the way and actually start believing them. Worst, you begin to start using it to express your your views in an attempt to engage anyone in a discussion. You just make yourself look really bad in people's eyes. So you come full circle. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Again, when you have nothing else to say, refrain from doing so.


That 67% who didn't see anything wrong were probably monitoring the elections in west Ukraine.

Citation please, or state that as your opinion.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 17, 2014, 12:54:56 PM
More on internet censorships, intranet, web restrictions, etc....

Guys, be careful believing that countries like Iran, China, Russia, India, etc...have very limited, if not censored altogether, access to information via the internet. That can prove dangerous to your internet browsing experience (virtual ignorance).

Consider for a moment, if peoples in these countries can infiltrate, hack, scan, spam, turn-off your TV sets, make you morning coffee, walk your dog - all from the comfort of their highly-restricted and censored computing locations; don't think for a minute they won't have the same full access you do to those silly media-regurgitated *biased news reports* we, here in the *free world*, enjoy everyday.

About the only thing they will likely have difficulty doing is directly asking you if you're done with the sport's page.

Access to any online service censored or not, your novice, savvy and expert will find a way to get to get around the censorship. Problem here GQ, your average end user of the internet has no knowledge or tools to do so. The gubmints doing the censoring don't care much about those, it's the masses that concern them.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 17, 2014, 01:11:15 PM
BillyB-

When you find yourself with nothing else to say, refrain from doing so

Again, when you have nothing else to say, refrain from doing so.



When losing a debate, it doesn't help your argument when you tell people to shut up.....twice in the same post.


That's ok, you don't have to agree with me and you may not want to admit it in public but deep down, you and LivefromUkraine know Putin is correct in that Ukraine would not elect a pro Russian president in a fair, UN monitored election otherwise taking over Ukraine would be so much easier without all this drama.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 17, 2014, 01:51:36 PM

When losing a debate, it doesn't help your argument when you tell people to shut up.....twice in the same post.


That's ok, you don't have to agree with me and you may not want to admit it in public but deep down, you and LivefromUkraine know Putin is correct in that Ukraine would not elect a pro Russian president in a fair, UN monitored election otherwise taking over Ukraine would be so much easier without all this drama.


 According to your own logic, Yanu isn't Pro Russian.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 01:54:23 PM

When losing a debate....

LOL. No need for elaboration of my previous post.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 17, 2014, 02:09:44 PM
Access to any online service censored or not, your novice, savvy and expert will find a way to get to get around the censorship. Problem here GQ, your average end user of the internet has no knowledge or tools to do so. The gubmints doing the censoring don't care much about those, it's the masses that concern them.

While I may understand your point of view expressed in this post, FP...I'm not quite sure I would agree with it. Maybe partially if any consolation but even then that likely would fall more on the *wishful thinking* category.

First off, and just from our local perspective...can you tell me exactly how much of the super-information highway we enjoy that you feel is neither censored, filtered, screened, withheld, etc.? Personally, I wouldn't know and I would believe not too many within 'our' masses could either. Unless  of course you can with great certainty and would like to share (?)

For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country - at that time?

How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?

Maybe now you know, but how much of the truth were you aware that when Obama and some in the senate was told of the fact that the whole "you can keep your plan" fiasco was just not true but was kept from us until way after the *law* had taken effect?

I could go on with a few more but hopefully you get the idea...

As for the US masses, seriously now, based on the last 2 presidential elections, I simply cannot put too much faith in the manner of how our *masses* process whatever information they have on hand these days.

Additionally, without any information on exactly how much the masses of China/Iran/Russia actually have available at their disposal, in addition to how much is available with us, how can I ever even begin to compare apple to apple?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 17, 2014, 02:11:23 PM
It was done a few times. Three weeks ago over 100 rioters were arrested in Donetsk, a week ago about 80 protestors were arrested in Kharkov. All turned to be Ukrainians.

SBU (security service of Ukraine) detains on regular base russian "diversants" like this 22 y.o. one, who is claimed to be FSB coordinator of unrests in Nikolaev:
(http://fbcdn-sphotos-a-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/t1.0-9/s403x403/10177342_670059726365222_4799407982228567321_n.jpg)


A good example of the propaganda war. 

On Monday, Belvis introduced us to 22 yo Maria Koleda.  She is a Russian citizen still being detained by Ukraine's counter-intelligence services, who allowed CNN to interview her.  CNN is a respected news organization.   CNN reports that Maria claims she is a journalist, yet when CNN researched the organization she claims to represent, CNN discovered it last published in the 1920s. 


http://www.cnn.com/video/data/2.0/video/bestoftv/2014/04/17/pkg-damon-russian-provocateur.cnn.html

(Maria's case starts at the 1:20 mark).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 17, 2014, 02:27:13 PM

For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country?

How much information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?

Maybe now you know, but how much of the truth were you aware that when Obama and some in the senate was told of the fact that the whole "you can keep your plan" fiasco was just not true but was kept from us until way after the *law* had taken effect?

I could go on with a few more but hopefully you get the idea...


Was that information even available?  Suppressing available information would be one thing but not releasing it is a different matter, imo.


Quote

As for the US masses, seriously now, based on the last 2 presidential elections, I simply cannot put too much faith in the manner of how our *masses* process whatever information they have on hand these days.

Additionally, without any information on exactly how much the masses of China/Iran/Russia actually have available at their disposal, in addition to how much is available with us, how can I ever even begin to compare apple to apple?


The media is big business now and we can't rely on them.  Look at Ron Paul being blacked out on almost all mainstream media outlets even though he was in second place. 


I would say that there is so much disinformation that it is hard to even discern fact from fiction.  I believe most people will be lazy enough not to put in the effort to figure it out and rely on the first news piece they come across.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 17, 2014, 04:26:09 PM


For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country - at that time?

How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?




I agree with this....our govt often does its own censoring by not telling us the truth, after which the falsehood is repeated by the media ad nauseam.   That is a form of censorship just as effective, perhaps more so than trying to block websites.  Sometimes I'm not convinced we hear 1/3 of the real truth about things, BUT many think we do...although less and less do continue to believe. 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on April 17, 2014, 07:35:00 PM
Just an observation, this time round there doesn't seem to be anything on the social media of western countries about moves to boycott Russian made crap in order to punish them. Normally for a significant world event, there would be some activist groups attempting to do something like that.
Russia doesn't make anything worth owning except military hardware for the third world dictatorships.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 10:05:36 AM
How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?




Obama and Hillary handled the terrorist action poorly and blamed it on a video. They aren't going to tell the truth because it hurts their image just like if they told the truth on lack of interest in Obamacare, it hurts their image. But there is no conspiracy or bigger issue at play than Obama and Hillary trying to save face due to poor reaction and deflecting blame regarding Benghazi. It's important to Obama the world is a safe and friendly place and no terrorism happens on his watch.


As hard as you are on our government, I'm surprised you've accepted the election that Yanukovych won in Ukraine two years ago. Did you read the OSCE report on the election? Questions about transparency are there, votes moved around without proper observers present, the election approved by CES before pending complaints in court being resolved. Most issues pertaining to election fraud were in south and east Ukraine. Yulia Tymoshenko was supposed to go on live tv in front of a panel of judges to rule on her complaints about fraud in the election for the Ukrainian people to see but Yanukovych cancelled the broadcast. Yulia has opened her mouth too much about election fraud so a short time later Yanukovych gives her an all expense paid trip to jail. If things like this happened in America, I'm sure you'd be on top of it.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 18, 2014, 10:16:44 AM


Obama and Hillary handled the terrorist action poorly and blamed it on a video. They aren't going to tell the truth because it hurts their image just like if they told the truth on lack of interest in Obamacare, it hurts their image. But there is no conspiracy or bigger issue at play than Obama and Hillary trying to save face due to poor reaction and deflecting blame regarding Benghazi. It's important to Obama the world is a safe and friendly place and no terrorism happens on his watch.


As hard as you are on our government, I'm surprised you've accepted the election that Yanukovych won in Ukraine two years ago. Did you read the OSCE report on the election? Questions about transparency are there, votes moved around without proper observers present, the election approved by CES before pending complaints in court being resolved. Most issues pertaining to election fraud were in south and east Ukraine. Yulia Tymoshenko was supposed to go on live tv in front of a panel of judges to rule on her complaints about fraud in the election for the Ukrainian people to see but Yanukovych cancelled the broadcast. Yulia has opened her mouth too much about election fraud so a short time later Yanukovych gives her an all expense paid trip to jail. If things like this happened in America, I'm sure you'd be on top of it.

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 10:25:35 AM
...As hard as you are on our government, I'm surprised you've accepted the election that Yanukovych won in Ukraine two years ago. Did you read the OSCE report on the election? Questions about transparency are there, votes moved around without proper observers present, the election approved by CES before pending complaints in court being resolved. Most issues pertaining to election fraud were in south and east Ukraine. Yulia Tymoshenko was supposed to go on live tv in front of a panel of judges to rule on her complaints about fraud in the election for the Ukrainian people to see but Yanukovych cancelled the broadcast. Yulia has opened her mouth too much about election fraud so a short time later Yanukovych gives her an all expense paid trip to jail. If things like this happened in America, I'm sure you'd be on top of it.

Which part of this are you struggling to understand?

>>According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine....<<


You have been the one speculation that any future elections to be deemed legitimate must have outside observers participation. Well, there WERE outside participation in the last 2010 presidential election and they universally stated and reported no impropriety and further elaborated the election to be *a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine*

...Ukraine should be allowed to have UN monitors in their country to watch the elections without outside interference....

Having raised that information to you, now you're peddling UN's participation. Questions of transparency is just that, questions. They found them to be *UNFOUNDED*. Any following statement that advocated these allegations to be unfounded, means just that - UNFOUNDED.

Did you even know that OSCE is a multi-nation MILITARY observer that also includes Russia? OSCE is the organization in charge of election observation.

Here's their report relating to that 2010 Presidential Election:

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/eoms/presidential_2010 (http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/eoms/presidential_2010)

Quote
...According to the mission's final report: "The presidential election met most OSCE commitments and other international standards for democratic elections and consolidated progress achieved since 2004. The process was transparent and offered voters a genuine choice between candidates representing diverse political views. However, unsubstantiated allegations of large-scale electoral fraud negatively affected the election atmosphere and voter confidence in the process."...

***UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS***

The dictionary defines *unsubstantiated* as follows:

>>not supported or proven by evidence.<<

So for the life of me...what exactly are YOU having trouble understanding here, BillyB? Dude...you've been inhaling way too much dirt dust. Take a break.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 10:34:41 AM

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?


Absolutely. The whole goal of Obamacare is to get all Americans health insurance which means it should focus on the uninsured Americans, not the insured. Before Obamacare over 45 million Americans didn't have health insurance. After Obamacare, there's still almost as many uninsured. Many of those who signed up on Obamacare already had private insurance that was cancelled or had their rates go up. When Obama can get almost all the uninsured people to sign up, then he can start talking success.


***UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS***



I guess you didn't read the part where allegations were never pursued and/or ruled on by the courts to be substantiated before the acceptance of the election. Truth hurts so it hurts to read the whole report, doesn't it? But you have the right to believe the American government is dirtier than Ukraine's.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 18, 2014, 10:35:47 AM

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?


8 million out of 300 million... yes, I would say that is a lack of interest especially if most of those 8 million where already getting some sort of assistance.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 18, 2014, 10:54:02 AM

8 million out of 300 million... yes, I would say that is a lack of interest especially if most of those 8 million where already getting some sort of assistance.

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 18, 2014, 10:54:54 AM

8 million out of 300 million... yes, I would say that is a lack of interest especially if most of those 8 million where already getting some sort of assistance.


Good point. If Obamacare is so desirable then why do they have the IRS enforcing it? How can you tell what is love making and rape? The knife at the throat gives you a hint. People having to accept $12,000 a year deductibles is people whop are not covered. If you had to pay big insurance company premiums plus a yearly deductible that size wouldn't you not go to the doctor unless as a last resort? Many people are going to die because they didn't catch things in time. The AFFORDABLE Health Care act is an obamanation.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 18, 2014, 10:56:39 AM

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.


Does your Belarusian wife know about your poor girlfriend?  :D [size=78%] [/size]
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 10:57:49 AM
...I guess you didn't read the part where allegations were never pursued and/or ruled on by the courts to be substantiated before the acceptance of the election. Truth hurts so it hurts to read the whole report, doesn't it? But you have the right to believe the American government is dirtier than Ukraine's.

It's on a PDF format, so I am quoting the following for you. http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/41595 (http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/41595)


Ukraine, Presidential Election, 17 January and 7 February 2010: Post-election Interim Report No. 1

Publisher: Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe        Date: 23 February 2010
(click on the 'English' tab)
Post-Election Interim Report
8-20 February 2010
Section IV - Complaints and Appeal; Page 3; Last Paragraph:
and I quote:

Quote
...On 20 February, on the second day of the court hearing, Ms. Tymoshenko filed a motion requesting that her complaint challenging the election result be withdrawn. This was after the HAC had denied her request to call as witnesses members of PECs, DECs and Observers. After five hours of deliberations, the HAC granted Ms. Tymoshenko the motion to withdrew her complaint (13). Ms. Tymoshenko stated that she would not challenge the result in any other court. On the same day, President Yushchenko congratulated Mr. Yanukovich as the legitimately elected President of Ukraine and signed the decree for his inauguration....

End quote.


I'm convinced you're clinical. jb once called this site an 'asylum'. I didn't realize he was being literal.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Maxx2 on April 18, 2014, 11:02:13 AM
I guess you didn't read the part where allegations were never pursued and/or ruled on by the courts to be substantiated before the acceptance of the election. Truth hurts so it hurts to read the whole report, doesn't it? But you have the right to believe the American government is dirtier than Ukraine's.


Ah Billy, both are as crooked as a dog's hind leg. It shouldn't be "My country right or wrong. My mother drunk or sober."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on April 18, 2014, 11:02:26 AM

Does your Belarusian wife know about your poor girlfriend?  :D

We are not married yet, lol
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 11:04:58 AM

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.

The majority of those who signed up were exactly like your GF - freeloaders. Most of those folks were already on Medicaid.

This administration won't even release the information as to exactly how many of those who signed up are actually paid subscriber. This is why the plan had to take monies from Medicare to help finance this stupid law. The program will be subsidizing healthcare centers and hospital for at least 2 years. If the *paying* people doesn't increase in numbers within the program...it's dead on the water and everyone is really phocked. People had to be paying into the program to finance the society's freeloading losers like his stupid Aunt. You don't get enough paying folks in the program, it's screwed. That is why its always been held as unsustainable.

That is largely why the Union didn't want any part of this stupid law and since they were major contributor to Obama's election, he is giving the Union a free pass. If the law implodes, the Union may have to implode along with it if they didn't get that pass.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 18, 2014, 11:19:23 AM

Not really, when they were expecting about 6 million. Not everyone in the US needs to sign up. My girlfriend signed up and was approved for free healthcare for her and her son.


The amount of money they threw at this thing would be considered a failure in the real world.


This is the way I look at it, if it has worked out like they wanted, there would be no reason not to release the data from the signups.  Obamacare needs the young people to pay for the old.  I doubt many younger people signed up since it is only a small tax hit (this year) compared to what they would pay for higher insurance. 


Don't forget they made catastrophe insurance illegal now which is what most young people would purchase.  They postponed this, for after elections, but those will have to pay up for better coverage even if they don't want it.


There is no national security at risk for this so there should be no reason why these numbers can't be released.  6 million sign ups should not be a gauge for success since we don't know the breakdown of that data.  If there isn't enough young people the whole system will fail. 


I feel for the young people since they are just starting out in life, trying to build a career and now they have pay up for all of the old people and freebie seekers.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 18, 2014, 01:24:24 PM
Which part of this are you struggling to understand?

>>According to all international organizations observing the election, allegations of electoral fraud in relation to the first round ballot were unfounded, they declared that the conduct of the elections was within internationally recognized democratic standards and a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine....<<


You have been the one speculation that any future elections to be deemed legitimate must have outside observers participation. Well, there WERE outside participation in the last 2010 presidential election and they universally stated and reported no impropriety and further elaborated the election to be *a testament to the will of the people of Ukraine*

Having raised that information to you, now you're peddling UN's participation. Questions of transparency is just that, questions. They found them to be *UNFOUNDED*. Any following statement that advocated these allegations to be unfounded, means just that - UNFOUNDED.

Did you even know that OSCE is a multi-nation MILITARY observer that also includes Russia? OSCE is the organization in charge of election observation.

Here's their report relating to that 2010 Presidential Election:

http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/eoms/presidential_2010 (http://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/ukraine/eoms/presidential_2010)


***UNSUBSTANTIATED ALLEGATIONS***

The dictionary defines *unsubstantiated* as follows:

>>not supported or proven by evidence.<<

So for the life of me...what exactly are YOU having trouble understanding here, BillyB? Dude...you've been inhaling way too much dirt dust. Take a break.

Fine - that covers the Presidential election.  What about the latest Rada elections?  Were they monitored and given the all-clear (sort of) in the same way?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 01:30:44 PM
Fine - that covers the Presidential election.  What about the latest Rada elections?  Were they monitored and given the all-clear (sort of) in the same way?

Illegal impeachment of a duly elected President make any/all actions thereafter illegitimate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Slumba on April 18, 2014, 01:32:03 PM

So, 8 Million people signing up for Obama care shows a lack of interest?

1.  That is how many "clicked the button" to create an account - that is not the number of people who actually paid money to an insurance company for the plan.  They won't release, despite having the latest data on a daily basis. Since they have the data but won't release it, what does that tell you?

2. The claim was to "fix" healthcare for the estimated 45 million uninsured.  So after billions of dollars in website development costs, passage of a 2000 page healthcare bill that no one understood or could read, millions of people having their hours cut to 28.5 hours per week by restaurants and other service industries, etc. etc. ... not even 20% of the problem could even, by the low standards of "close enough for government work" , be considered "fixed".
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 18, 2014, 01:50:07 PM
While I may understand your point of view expressed in this post, FP...I'm not quite sure I would agree with it. Maybe partially if any consolation but even then that likely would fall more on the *wishful thinking* category.

First off, and just from our local perspective...can you tell me exactly how much of the super-information highway we enjoy that you feel is neither censored, filtered, screened, withheld, etc.? Personally, I wouldn't know and I would believe not too many within 'our' masses could either. Unless  of course you can with great certainty and would like to share (?)

I've no doubt that in the U.S. at this time, we can go anywhere on the world wide web. We have no restrictions that I am aware of. But, just because we can go anywhere on the web doesn't necessarily mean we are getting the truth. Or, that the "truth" is even available on the web. Keyword here GQ "disinformation". Google, Yahoo, Facebook, Twitter and the other big engines are the masters of it. You get what they want you to have. Others wise you must filter through all of their "disinformation" to just get information that you can discern or not for the "truth". If, in fact the truth is out there.


Quote
For instance, how much information was made available to us regarding our participation in Libya's uprising and ensuing bombing of that country - at that time?

How much *truthful* information was/is available to us, or was made available to us, regarding Benghazi?

Maybe now you know, but how much of the truth were you aware that when Obama and some in the senate was told of the fact that the whole "you can keep your plan" fiasco was just not true but was kept from us until way after the *law* had taken effect?

I could go on with a few more but hopefully you get the idea...

As for the US masses, seriously now, based on the last 2 presidential elections, I simply cannot put too much faith in the manner of how our *masses* process whatever information they have on hand these days.

Additionally, without any information on exactly how much the masses of China/Iran/Russia actually have available at their disposal, in addition to how much is available with us, how can I ever even begin to compare apple to apple?

Yeah I get the idea. But, I believe these are two separate and distinct things here as LFU mentioned. The hours and days after Benghazi the truth wasn't made available to be on the web. Being lied to and unable to find the truth aren't the same things. The same pertains to IRS scandal and the bevy of other lies this admin has purported
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 02:02:27 PM
The amount of money they threw at this thing would be considered a failure in the real world.



It would have been better if the government took the billions of dollars they'd spend on Obamacare every year and buy health insurance for the 45+ million uninsured instead. We'd could get all Americans health insurance and save money from having to hire all those extra IRS agents.



Fine - that covers the Presidential election.  What about the latest Rada elections?  Were they monitored and given the all-clear (sort of) in the same way?


I believe there has been monitoring in the past pertaining to Ukraine's parliament election. If parliamentary elections get the same quality of monitoring as the presidential election, then one shouldn't have much faith in the results where candidates are on the edge of winning and losing. Close races are more easily subject to electoral fraud.


Here is the entire official report on the OSCE 2010 presidential elections. 33% of the CEC members responsible for monitoring the elections wrote dissenting opinions on the acceptance of the election. They were not happy the election was accepted before the investigation of claims of electoral fraud. I run a business and if 33% of my people say there's something wrong, I don't cheerfully assume everything is all right. Issues should be addressed.


http://www.ecoi.net/file_upload/1002_1272736068_ua.pdf


Illegal impeachment of a duly elected President make any/all actions thereafter illegitimate.


Only Russia and a few of their pals have the same belief as you. Most people, nations of the world, and UN body have accepted Ukraine's current government as a legitimate government and Russia's actions against them illegal.


Since you consider all actions of Ukraine's government illegal for the rest of their existence, what must they do to be legitimate again? Bring back into power the criminal who robbed citizens for billions?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 02:18:20 PM
...Only Russia and a few of their pals have the same belief as you. Most people, nations of the world, and UN body have accepted Ukraine's current government as a legitimate government and Russia's actions against them illegal.

Citation please.

Quote
...Since you consider all actions of Ukraine's government illegal for the rest of their existence, what must they do to be legitimate again? Bring back into power the criminal who robbed citizens for billions?

It isn't a 'consideration', it's a fact.

As for bringing back a 'criminal who robbed citizens of billions', LOL. Who exactly are you talking about? Which one?


...I run a business and if 33% of my people say there's something wrong, I don't cheerfully assume everything is all right. Issues should be addressed....


LOL. I run a company, too. If 1 out of every 3 employees of mine have a *dissenting opinions* about anything within the framework of our purpose and functions as a company, which after being found to be unsubstantiated and continue to be disruptive despite the fact, then I consider them unhealthy to our goal and will seek to replace them.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 02:32:34 PM
Citation please.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/27/here-are-the-11-u-n-members-that-voted-against-a-resolution-on-ukraines-unity/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 18, 2014, 02:39:27 PM
 .
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 02:40:16 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/27/here-are-the-11-u-n-members-that-voted-against-a-resolution-on-ukraines-unity/ (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/03/27/here-are-the-11-u-n-members-that-voted-against-a-resolution-on-ukraines-unity/)

Are you this dense? The citation I asked for, based on your posted drivel above, pertains to your assertion that the UN accepted the current government of Ukraine - NOT - a vote of any type of resolution regarding Crimea as reported by the Washington Post.

You have 5 Security Council member seated in the United Nations. Of which, Russia is an integral PERMANENT member. So think harder...

Quote
...Resolutions from the United Nations' General Assembly, unlike those from the Security Council, are non-binding. So a vote for or against a measure -- like the one Thursday that says Crimea's referendum to break away from Ukraine was not valid -- doesn't mean any action will be taken....

You can do this, man....I'm rooting for you. Rah-rah-rah BillyB!!! Think, think, think! You once told this site you were an honor student in school. LOL. Prove to us you can at least 'READ'.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 03:14:04 PM
Are you this dense? The citation I asked for, based on your posted drivel above, pertains to your assertion that the UN accepted the current government of Ukraine - NOT - a vote of any type of resolution regarding Crimea as reported by the Washington Post.

 Prove to us you can at least 'READ'.


Again, you are reading only what you want to read or maybe I'm just debating a child? Blind or just in denial? There are six items on the U.N. resolution affirming Ukraine's territorial integrity. Two of them specifically mention Crimea, the others are related to all of Ukraine. Why are you ignoring the other items when I put them in your face as you requested?  Look at #1 and notice "affirms"..... "political independence?" When a nation voted "yes" on that, they affirm Ukraine's political independence besides agreeing on the other 5 issues. When a nation votes "no", they do not recognize Ukraine's government as legitimate or maybe they do but don't recognize Crimea belonging to Ukraine in items 5 & 6. I showed you the majority of nations accept Ukraine's government as it is today yet you continue to believe most nations see things as Russia does and that Ukraine's government is illegal.


Did you read this below in the link I gave you? Probably not, just read the first paragraph of the article and went on attack.  :rolleyes:


1. Affirms its commitment to the sovereignty, political independence, unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders;


2. Calls upon all States to desist and refrain from actions aimed at the  partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine, including any attempts to modify Ukraine’s borders through the threat or use of force or other unlawful means;


3. Urges all parties to pursue immediately the peaceful resolution of the situation with respect to Ukraine through direct political dialogue, to exercise restraint, to refrain from unilateral actions and inflammatory rhetoric that may increase tensions, and to engage fully with international mediation efforts;


 4. Welcomes the efforts of the United Nations, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and other international and regional organizations to assist Ukraine in protecting the rights of all persons in Ukraine, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities;


5. Underscores that the referendum held in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol on 16 March 2014, having no validity, cannot form the basis for any alteration of the status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea or of the city of Sevastopol;


6. Calls upon all States, international organizations and specialized agencies not to recognize any alteration of the status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol on the basis of the above-mentioned referendum and to refrain from any action or dealing that might be interpreted as recognizing any such altered status.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 03:23:44 PM

Again, you are reading only what you want to read or maybe I'm just debating a child? Blind or just in denial? There are six items on the U.N. resolution affirming Ukraine's territorial integrity. Two of them specifically mention Crimea, the others are related to all of Ukraine. Why are you ignoring the other items when I put them in your face as you requested?  Look at #1 and notice "affirms"..... "political independence?" When a nation voted "yes" on that, they affirm Ukraine's political independence besides agreeing on the other 5 issues. When a nation votes "no", they do not recognize Ukraine's government as legitimate or maybe they do but don't recognize Crimea belonging to Ukraine in items 5 & 6. I showed you the majority of nations accept Ukraine's government as it is today yet you continue to believe most nations see things as Russia does and that Ukraine's government is illegal.


Did you read this below in the link I gave you? Probably not, just read the first paragraph of the article and went on attack.  :rolleyes:


1. Affirms its commitment to the sovereignty, political independence, unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders;


2. Calls upon all States to desist and refrain from actions aimed at the  partial or total disruption of the national unity and territorial integrity of Ukraine, including any attempts to modify Ukraine’s borders through the threat or use of force or other unlawful means;


3. Urges all parties to pursue immediately the peaceful resolution of the situation with respect to Ukraine through direct political dialogue, to exercise restraint, to refrain from unilateral actions and inflammatory rhetoric that may increase tensions, and to engage fully with international mediation efforts;


 4. Welcomes the efforts of the United Nations, the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe and other international and regional organizations to assist Ukraine in protecting the rights of all persons in Ukraine, including the rights of persons belonging to minorities;


5. Underscores that the referendum held in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol on 16 March 2014, having no validity, cannot form the basis for any alteration of the status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea or of the city of Sevastopol;


6. Calls upon all States, international organizations and specialized agencies not to recognize any alteration of the status of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and the city of Sevastopol on the basis of the above-mentioned referendum and to refrain from any action or dealing that might be interpreted as recognizing any such altered status.


Which part of 'non-binding' do you not understand this time, BillyB?

>>A non-binding resolution is a written motion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motion_%28parliamentary_procedure%29) adopted by a deliberative body (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deliberative_body) that cannot progress into a law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law).

The substance of the resolution can be anything that can normally be proposed as a motion. This type of resolution is often used to express the body's approval or disapproval of something that they cannot otherwise vote on,[1] due to the matter being handled by another jurisdiction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jurisdiction), or being protected by a constitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution). (and in this case, the council of the United Nations)<<

The resolution IS about Crimea's decision to be under Russian dominion. You said "the UN accepted the government of Ukraine".

Despite your futile silly attempt to make sense, your left toe will never be the same as your right hand pinky.

 >:D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 03:50:14 PM

Which part of 'non-binding' do you not understand this time, BillyB?



Verbal agreements are non-binding too but does that mean there is no agreement at all? The majority of UN members voted to recognize Ukraine's current government besides considering what happened in Crimea illegal. You know Russia has a veto at the UN. There can never be anything binding at the UN pertaining to Ukraine and it's desire to separate from Russia but the majority of the UN body has voiced their opinions and agreed to accept Ukraine with it's current government. They consider Ukraine's government legal and Ukraine will continue to have a seat at the UN.


The resolution IS about Crimea's decision to be under Russian dominion.



I put all 6 items that were to be voted on by the UN in front of your face. Since you don't have the ability to read anything else except the 2 items that specifically refer to Crimea, I can't help you anymore.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 04:09:50 PM
You should've taken my advice upthread, BillyB. But being I'm sexy and sort of nice...I'd like to at least give you a weekend reading assignment to help familiarize you to the difference between the UN's SC & GA.

It is evident that the *non-binding* segment had you perplexed right now so I don't mean to add to your anxiety and embarrassment.

So, here goes, hombre...The Diifference Between UN Security Council and UN General Assembly (http://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-un-security-council-and-un-general-assembly/)

In return, please provide requested citation showing *the UN accepted the government of Ukraine*.

Not resolutions, not any motion, not any Katy Perry selfie, ok?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 18, 2014, 04:32:25 PM
please provide requested citation showing *the UN accepted the government of Ukraine*.



I have a better idea since you're the one eager to learn. Show me where the UN Security Council or General Assembly or any world body rejects the Ukrainian government. Or simply show me that Ukraine has lost it's seat at the UN or even lost the right to vote on issues. After you do your homework this weekend, you will begin to understand Ukraine's government, in it's current form, retains all rights since it's recognized as legitimate. Just because you and Russia says it's illegitimate doesn't make it so. Stop living in the fantasy world and embrace reality, you'll enjoy life more. Study hard but try to have a good weekend without letting your head explode.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 18, 2014, 06:03:50 PM
Illegal impeachment of a duly elected President make any/all actions thereafter illegitimate.

Try answering my questions instead of going off at a tangent.  What does your answer have to do with elections that were held in 2012?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 08:48:05 PM
Try answering my questions instead of going off at a tangent.  What does your answer have to do with elections that were held in 2012?

Then quit being obtuse. Your silly question have nothing whatsoever to do with the ongoing discussion, nor does it have anything to do with the recent event.

Was the Council election of 2012 monitored, YES. What was the finding/opinion/report? It was marred by suspicions of improprieties, briberies and overall corruption. So now AK, what the heck is your point?

Does it somehow legitimize the ousting of the president? The answer is no.

Now what?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 18, 2014, 08:51:38 PM

I have a better idea since you're the one eager to learn. Show me where the UN Security Council or General Assembly or any world body rejects the Ukrainian government. Or simply show me that Ukraine has lost it's seat at the UN or even lost the right to vote on issues. After you do your homework this weekend, you will begin to understand Ukraine's government, in it's current form, retains all rights since it's recognized as legitimate. Just because you and Russia says it's illegitimate doesn't make it so. Stop living in the fantasy world and embrace reality, you'll enjoy life more. Study hard but try to have a good weekend without letting your head explode.

Translation: You don't have a citation. It's OK, I knew you won't find one and you're just, again, shooting from the hip. LOL.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BC on April 19, 2014, 01:18:58 AM
There will be voter fraud in any election regardless of country.  Perfect is not part of the game.

The ultimate test is whether or not the population accepts or revolts against election results.  That's a part of the checks and balances inherent in any free democracy.  Civil strife is a part of the democratic process, and yes, sometimes blood and life is lost.  That's just the way it is and sometimes the only way to get things sorted out and over with.

IMHO the concept of 'bloodless democracy' only goes so far or long.  It's against human nature especially when only the few hold political and economic power.

UA is going through this process now.  At the human level it seems much like a divorce.  Why can we accept couples divorcing, splitting assets and moving on but not peoples?

It has been proposed that regions in UA have more autonomy, even to the point of being able to alter alliances.  What is fundamentally wrong with that?  Should such be prevented?




Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 19, 2014, 03:42:32 AM
Then quit being obtuse. Your silly question have nothing whatsoever to do with the ongoing discussion, nor does it have anything to do with the recent event.

I wasn't being obtuse.  I asked a really simple question but, instead of simply answering it, you have to get all high and mighty about its "relevance" to the "ongoing discussion."  Why do you always have to act so bloody superior to everyone else?  For a while I thought you might actually be settling down, but the old GQBlues is definitely back.


Was the Council election of 2012 monitored, YES. What was the finding/opinion/report? It was marred by suspicions of improprieties, briberies and overall corruption.

Thank you!  That's all I wanted to know.  :clapping:


So now AK, what the heck is your point?

The point is that there was no point - it was just a question!  :wallbash:

Does it somehow legitimize the ousting of the president? The answer is no.

Now what?

Whether or not the ousting of the President is deemed illegitimate or otherwise, he has embezzled billions of dollars from his country's Treasury, and he and his family and cronies are the biggest reason that the country is nearly bankrupt.  In any case, even if the impeachment was illegal, how can he remain President if he has fled the country, especially if it was to avoid arrest?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on April 19, 2014, 04:04:29 AM
Why do you always have to act so bloody superior to everyone else?

Maybe he is suffering from small man syndrome?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 19, 2014, 07:10:41 AM
Maybe he is suffering from small man syndrome?

The proper term is "little man complex/Napoleon Complex". If you're attempting to insult anyone in the future, try to at least use the proper term otherwise you'd look foolish doing so.

I'm 5'8" and nothing happened in my life so far to induce any type of complex in me, big guy. LOL. Hell, my wife is nearly 6' tall and she still can't get enough of me.

What about you Sleepy Cat? You're what 6' plus-Mr. Atmospheric? How well is that working out for you? I bet you can't even get laid without paying for it, no?

Aren't you the one who kept getting burned and scammed trying to chase women of the dirty barrel? LOL. It sux you can't get a date at home then have to rely in the MOB but still get blistered. That has to be the sh!ts, no? I mean dude, you *may* be tall(er) but that crap happening to you all your life can't get any *lower*, don't you agree?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on April 19, 2014, 08:01:18 AM
If you're attempting to insult anyone in the future,

LOL not at all! I was reading the exchange between you and Ak and decided to add my 2 cents worth. Sometimes it's fun to play amateur psychologist don't you agree?

Consider this an apology if I happened to have touched a raw nerve. Not all of us are born with a thick skin now are we!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 19, 2014, 08:38:25 AM
LOL not at all! I was reading the exchange between you and Ak and decided to add my 2 cents worth. Sometimes it's fun to play amateur psychologist don't you agree?

Consider this an apology if I happened to have touched a raw nerve. Not all of us are born with a thick skin now are we!

Neppers, not an ounce of insecurity with this dude. I'm not the type to be posing with a giant plastic sword and take a picture of myself nor the type to dog anyone then bitch about it when they get bit back.

So no, I don't 'do' apologies. Save it for someone who cares  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 21, 2014, 09:38:54 AM
Why does the Russian government call the new government of Ukraine 'illegitimate'?
Answer: They threw out Putin's bitch, Yanukovych. That's what it is all about to Putin. And he takes it personally. What I don't understand is why some Ukrainians want to be a part of Russia? Bizarre. Free trade with the EU and integration with the West would be far superior to life in a neo-Soviet state, where non-government organizations and protests are illegal. In the past, has Moscow treated Ukraine fairly? Regardless of what happens there WILL BE a backlash against the current government in Moscow, and it will come from Ukrainians and Russians who can see the truth. The great thing is that the truth can be found on the internet. All you have to do is look for it. I've learned a lot from photos and videos. Here's an example:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 21, 2014, 09:47:35 AM
I read a poll recently that told us that 75% of people in Donetsk do NOT want to be a part of Russia. I predict that in a few weeks they will have no choice. Here's an interesting article:
http://espreso.tv/new/2014/03/04/lyst_druzhyny_rosiyskoho_oficera
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 21, 2014, 09:57:01 AM
This true story should tell us everything we need to know about Putin's government and their intentions:
http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/03/24/russian-state-duma-to-the-polish-foreign-ministry-lets-divide-ukraine/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on April 21, 2014, 06:22:08 PM
I read a poll recently that told us that 75% of people in Donetsk do NOT want to be a part of Russia. I predict that in a few weeks they will have no choice. Here's an interesting article:
http://espreso.tv/new/2014/03/04/lyst_druzhyny_rosiyskoho_oficera

The other result of polling of interest is that there was extremely small percentage in favour of joining Russia. The point being--the reality of Putin's provocations is universally unwarranted.
Also of note--how the Russian propaganda impacts--- it seems a guy killed in eastern Ukraine thought he was protecting his fellow citizens from the "nazi's" coming from Kiev to kill Russian speakers in  eastern Ukraine. That is very sad in every respect. :'(
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on April 21, 2014, 06:32:37 PM
Does it somehow legitimize the ousting of the president? The answer is no.
Now what?

GQ-please read this very slowly and see if your brain can get this-- the ousting of Yanukovych was the legitimate act of the Ukraine parliament. The process of law was followed and a new interim coalition government formed-with a new interim President. The simple fact that Yanu's own party members voted against him ought to give you a clue --instead you follow an illogical piece of nonsense promoted by Putin that is simply in denial of the reality.
You really waste everyones time here promoting that nonsensical piece of Russian propaganda .

ps   I presume you are wearing 4/5" heels to get to 5'8"?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on April 21, 2014, 06:40:49 PM

ps   I presume you are wearing 4/5" heels to get to 5'8"?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 21, 2014, 07:34:07 PM
GQ-please read this very slowly and see if your brain can get this-- the ousting of Yanukovych was the legitimate act of the Ukraine parliament. The process of law was followed and a new interim coalition government formed-with a new interim President. The simple fact that Yanu's own party members voted against him ought to give you a clue --instead you follow an illogical piece of nonsense promoted by Putin that is simply in denial of the reality.
You really waste everyones time here promoting that nonsensical piece of Russian propaganda .

ps   I presume you are wearing 4/5" heels to get to 5'8"?


I suggest you read... slowly, the Ukraine constitution.  The legal process to impeach a president is set forth within.  I know it has big words and such, but sound them out and ask for help.  We will gladly help you. 


I certainly hope you are not referring to the Ukraine constitution as Russian propaganda.  If so, I would have to take back the presumption of being able to help you.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 21, 2014, 08:15:58 PM
GQ-please read this very slowly....

There indeed is one born every minute and you were on the first minute.

::::thinking::::::


Quote
...the ousting of Yanukovych was the legitimate act of the Ukraine parliament. The process of law was followed and a new interim coalition government formed-with a new interim President. The simple fact that Yanu's own party members voted against him ought to give you a clue --instead you follow an illogical piece of nonsense promoted by Putin that is simply in denial of the reality. You really waste everyones time here promoting that nonsensical piece of Russian propaganda ....

LOL. I am impress you actually was able to put a few sentences together. What an improvement. For a while there I thought you can only cut and paste from the Yahoo press reruns.

Quote
...ps   I presume you are wearing 4/5" heels to get to 5'8"?...

Oh man, loser...well that really bothered me LOL.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on April 21, 2014, 08:25:48 PM
An insightful analysis of the latest propaganda from the weekend. An excerpt:


"The Russian TV coverage of the story of the “Slavyansk slaughter” starting early  the morning of Easter Sunday contains a major blooper. The cache of so-called Right Sector paraphernalia, proudly displayed to prove its complicity, was already filmed  by Russian TV cameras  during the day of April 19 at least ten hours before the attack. (The camera crew did not bother to remove the date of the filming – the day of April 19). The April 19 film shows the same pile of Right Sector paraphernalia used the next day to prove Ukrainian extremist guilt in broadcasts throughout  Easter Sunday (April 20)! (I imagine some TV personnel are losing their jobs or worse)."


Elsewhere, a Russian source also notes that the footage of the "massacre" was uploaded to YouTube a few hours before the events allegedly took place  :popcorn:


Source: [size=78%]http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/20/putin-propagandists-caught-red-handed-again-pro-russian-self-defense-forces-capture-snipers-diapers/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/20/putin-propagandists-caught-red-handed-again-pro-russian-self-defense-forces-capture-snipers-diapers/)[/size]
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 21, 2014, 09:28:07 PM
An insightful analysis of the latest propaganda from the weekend. An excerpt:
"The Russian TV coverage of the story of the “Slavyansk slaughter” starting early  the morning of Easter Sunday contains a major blooper. The cache of so-called Right Sector paraphernalia, proudly displayed to prove its complicity, was already filmed  by Russian TV cameras  during the day of April 19 at least ten hours before the attack. (The camera crew did not bother to remove the date of the filming – the day of April 19). The April 19 film shows the same pile of Right Sector paraphernalia used the next day to prove Ukrainian extremist guilt in broadcasts throughout  Easter Sunday (April 20)! (I imagine some TV personnel are losing their jobs or worse)."

Elsewhere, a Russian source also notes that the footage of the "massacre" was uploaded to YouTube a few hours before the events allegedly took place  :popcorn:

Are Forbes readers so naive they don't aware of a simple detail that YuoTube service shows Californian time of uploads? Time difference between California and Moscow is 11 hrs. 
So Misha, you has become one more victim of propaganda war, indeed  :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 21, 2014, 09:39:33 PM
I see that Biden the clown is in Ukraine....the hypocrite 'representatives' of the USA are threatening more sanctions if they don't get their way....


I say if the US imposes more sanctions, it will backfire and Russia will retaliate.   I believe we are wading in a little deeper now...don't think we should.  We should stay out.  I believe that most people here in the states don't want involvement to the point where it affects us.   


My belief is that the USA has been operating outside the law around the world for quite some time...other times we gerrymander laws to our suiting...  For us to whine and threaten another country is laughable.  We shall soon see if the 'king' is wearing any clothing, when nations begin to 'defy' our commands.   


http://news.yahoo.com/u-says-act-days-no-russian-action-ukraine-210040700.html (http://news.yahoo.com/u-says-act-days-no-russian-action-ukraine-210040700.html)


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 21, 2014, 09:41:09 PM
Are Forbes readers so naive they don't aware of a simple detail that YuoTube service shows Californian time of uploads? Time difference between California and Moscow is 11 hrs. 
So Misha, you has become one more victim of propaganda war, indeed  :)

Time stamps on You tube aren't telling in any regard. Easily manipulated
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 21, 2014, 09:45:48 PM
The legal process to impeach a president is set forth within. 



If Yanukovych wants to come back and be put on trial for his crimes for an impeachment, he's free to do so.


Why is impeachment the only thing you'd consider to get rid of a president? If a president dies, becomes mentally unstable, or leaves his post and country, a parliament of any nation can replace their president legally since the president can't perform his/her duties. Impeachment is for crimes, not lack of performance. Yanukovych wasn't put on trial for crimes...yet so he's removed since he abandoned his duties. New laws can't be passed without a president's signature and a country can't come to a halt because of one man. Ukraine has every right to replace their president since Yanukovych left the country and most people and nations of the world recognize Ukraine's current government.


Russia can take their opinion that Yanukovych is still the president and Ukraine currently has an illegitimate government to the UN and put it up for a vote. They'll be wasting their time. Russia and a few media outlets say Yanukovych was illegally impeached. That is wrong and some people have been drinking the kool aid. Yanukovych was dismiss because he couldn't perform his duties, not impeached over crimes.


Some people see Ukraine's current leaders as violent fascists. They see no difference between them and Hitler. One reason the UN recognizes Ukraine's current government and leaders is because they're trying to facilitate a quick, fair election May 25 instead of a hostile takeover installing themselves as rulers for life. Most nations will be comfortable doing business with Ukraine's new government after the elections if Russia doesn't screw it up first.


In other news Russia is blaming Ukraine for breaking the agreement with their hostilities and the Ukraine and the West is claiming Russia isn't pulling out their troops and leaving the government buildings. Anybody actually believe the agreement would last long?


I see that Biden the clown is in Ukraine....the hypocrite 'representatives' of the USA are threatening more sanctions if they don't get their way....



When will Obama learn sanctions don't work?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on April 21, 2014, 09:46:04 PM

Are Forbes readers so naive they don't aware of a simple detail that YuoTube service shows Californian time of uploads? Time difference between California and Moscow is 11 hrs. 
So Misha, you has become one more victim of propaganda war, indeed  :)



The article that refers to the time inconsistency is here:
[size=78%]http://gordonua.com/news/politics/Lifenews-zaranee-snyal-syuzhet-o-napadenii-Pravogo-sektora-na-blokpost-v-Slavyanske-19208.html?fb_action_ids=597595163672732&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B501937633265830%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map (http://gordonua.com/news/politics/Lifenews-zaranee-snyal-syuzhet-o-napadenii-Pravogo-sektora-na-blokpost-v-Slavyanske-19208.html?fb_action_ids=597595163672732&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B501937633265830%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map)[/size][/font]


The video is here:


And, one of the comments addresses the issue of the time zone difference: "По инфе самого ютуба, это видео зааплоадили в 2014-04-20 в по ГМТ, то бишь в по Маскве. Шустрые, однако." Translation: the time of the video upload was 5:22AM, which would still be hours before the alleged incident even taking into account time zone differences :-X
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 21, 2014, 09:50:09 PM
Time stamps on You tube aren't telling in any regard. Easily manipulated
You're undermining  Ukrainian counterpropaganda main argument in Slavyansk massacre case.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on April 21, 2014, 09:52:50 PM
You're undermining  Ukrainian counterpropaganda main argument in Slavyansk massacre case.


Actually, the time issue is just one of the inconsistencies. There was also the magic business card that can survive a fire, yet the phone number printed on the card was wrong... At some point, if you pile it too high, it all comes tumbling down...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 21, 2014, 09:56:03 PM




When will Obama learn sanctions don't work?


Hey Billyb,


I don't think Obama has enough support to do anything much...the American people probably won't be behind him...and Russia will be willing to fight for this one...but I hear you...sanctions are perhaps the worst thing he could do, because it hurts us AND doesn't solve the problem...doing nothing would have been better imo.
Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on April 21, 2014, 09:58:42 PM

The article that refers to the time inconsistency is here:
[size=78%]http://gordonua.com/news/politics/Lifenews-zaranee-snyal-syuzhet-o-napadenii-Pravogo-sektora-na-blokpost-v-Slavyanske-19208.html?fb_action_ids=597595163672732&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B501937633265830%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map (http://gordonua.com/news/politics/Lifenews-zaranee-snyal-syuzhet-o-napadenii-Pravogo-sektora-na-blokpost-v-Slavyanske-19208.html?fb_action_ids=597595163672732&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=%5B501937633265830%5D&action_type_map=%5B%22og.likes%22%5D&action_ref_map)[/size][/font]

What does this change? Still manipulation exploiting people don't know about time difference.

Quote from: Misha
And, one of the comments addresses the issue of the time zone difference: "По инфе самого ютуба, это видео зааплоадили в 2014-04-20 в по ГМТ, то бишь в по Маскве. Шустрые, однако." Translation: the time of the video upload was 5:22AM, which would still be hours before the alleged incident even taking into account time zone differences :-X [/size]

Some inconsistency between russian text and translation, there is no mention about exact time in Russian as well as no link to YouTube info about the time.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on April 21, 2014, 10:20:21 PM

Actually, the time issue is just one of the inconsistencies. There was also the magic business card that can survive a fire, yet the phone number printed on the card was wrong... At some point, if you pile it too high, it all comes tumbling down...

according to the right sector , their actual   cards do not even have phone numbers on them ?

sx
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 21, 2014, 10:24:02 PM
Yanukovych was dismiss because he couldn't perform his duties, not impeached over crimes.


Certainly you can quote the Ukrainian constitutional law stating that the President can be voted out for not performing his duties. 


I await with much anticipation to reading what law you are talking about.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 21, 2014, 10:27:21 PM
Time stamps on You tube aren't telling in any regard. Easily manipulated


How so FP?  I always thought it was based on the server time.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on April 21, 2014, 10:34:08 PM
What does this change? Still manipulation exploiting people don't know about time difference.

Some inconsistency between russian text and translation, there is no mention about exact time in Russian as well as no link to YouTube info about the time.


I will concede the time zone difference that could account for the date of April 19th, but it still somewhat odd seeing the sun so high so early in the morning as they were filming outside all the alleged evidence found at the scene of the massacre  ;)  Again, the business cards in perfect condition, the nice $100 bills that are not even wrinkled, the reference to adult diapers found left behind by snipers.... It is all too neat and tidy and reeks of managed propaganda media overkill  :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 06:18:10 AM
Are Forbes readers so naive they don't aware of a simple detail that YuoTube service shows Californian time of uploads? Time difference between California and Moscow is 11 hrs. 
So Misha, you has become one more victim of propaganda war, indeed  :)

Psst.
 
Check the social media pages in Eastern Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2014, 06:21:11 AM

Certainly you can quote the Ukrainian constitutional law stating that the President can be voted out for not performing his duties. 


I await with much anticipation to reading what law you are talking about.


I think it's best the guys who been spreading misinformation that Yanukovych was impeached do some homework and come back and tell us what you found. I'd be interested in knowing if 3/4 of parliament is needed to replace a president who doesn't show up for work or is dead(remember, Yanukovych was missing for some time and people thought he was killed) and if so and they can't get 3/4 of the vote, does Ukraine remain without a president forever?


May 25 elections was set up by Yanukovych. The new leadership hasn't changed anything of his there. Yanukovych verbally resigned but took back his words when Putin needed him. When will some of you guys let him go?


How about Crimea? The Constitution you and GQ say is important when it comes to presidential matters says that any changes to Ukraine's territory has to be decided by the entire country? Do you think Crimea separating from Ukraine was legal? I know GQ believes that.



doing nothing would have been better imo.
 


Fathertime, are you by chance a Rand Paul fan? Some people know him as an isolationist and conservative. Some conservatives have criticized Rand for changing his stance on Ukraine. Some of the things Rand Paul have been saying lately shows he's willing to take action on Ukraine and portray himself as a tough, Ronald Reagan, kind of guy. I think Rand Paul is open to changing his views on foreign policy since Putin's action has opened his eyes on what leaders can do and the way they want to shape the world. Below is a quote from Rand Paul:


" I think that sometimes want to stand up and say hey, look at me, I’m the next Ronald Reagan. Well, almost all of us in the party are big fans of Ronald Reagan,” Paul said.

“I’ve always been a big fan of peace through strength. I think America should and has a responsibility around the world and really, virtually all of the opinions that have been coming from Republicans are somewhat the same on this – that Putin should be condemned, he should be isolated. I favor sanctions on Putin. So, for people to characterize that as somehow not being the Reagan position, I think they need to have a re-reading of Reagan, frankly,”
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 07:08:53 AM
So much propaganda...
 
Love song for Putin in Donetsk (http://www.62.ua/news/518564)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 22, 2014, 07:26:27 AM

How so FP?  I always thought it was based on the server time.

Perhaps I should have prefaced with "those that know how". Most any video editing software, my folks tell me
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 07:38:02 AM

I think it's best the guys who been spreading misinformation that Yanukovych was impeached do some homework and come back and tell us what you found. I'd be interested in knowing if 3/4 of parliament is needed to replace a president who doesn't show up for work or is dead(remember, Yanukovych was missing for some time and people thought he was killed) and if so and they can't get 3/4 of the vote, does Ukraine remain without a president forever?




I ran this through the BillyB translator and this is what I got.


"I don't really know what I'm talking about and I can't back up what I am trying to say as facts with anything substantial. "


Quote
May 25 elections was set up by Yanukovych. The new leadership hasn't changed anything of his there. Yanukovych verbally resigned but took back his words when Putin needed him. When will some of you guys let him go?


BillyB Translator...


"Nope, still can't back it up with any law but will continue to talk until everyone forgets what I previously said."

Quote
How about Crimea? The Constitution you and GQ say is important when it comes to presidential matters says that any changes to Ukraine's territory has to be decided by the entire country? Do you think Crimea separating from Ukraine was legal? I know GQ believes that.


BillyB Translator...


"It's time to change the subject to something else because there are no laws that say he can be voted out for not doing his duties."

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2014, 08:08:51 AM
Blah, blah, blah....



LivefromUkraine's translation: "I search for evidence that  Yanukovych was impeached illegally but BillyB is right, Yanukovych was relieved from office because he failed to perform his duties, not impeached over misconduct. The illegal impeachment of Yanukovych I'm upset about was never an impeachment at all. I don't want to embarrass myself admitting I'm wrong in front of the forum so I'll make fun of BillyB instead.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on April 22, 2014, 10:08:56 AM
An insightful analysis of the latest propaganda from the weekend. An excerpt:


"The Russian TV coverage of the story of the “Slavyansk slaughter” starting early  the morning of Easter Sunday contains a major blooper. The cache of so-called Right Sector paraphernalia, proudly displayed to prove its complicity, was already filmed  by Russian TV cameras  during the day of April 19 at least ten hours before the attack. (The camera crew did not bother to remove the date of the filming – the day of April 19). The April 19 film shows the same pile of Right Sector paraphernalia used the next day to prove Ukrainian extremist guilt in broadcasts throughout  Easter Sunday (April 20)! (I imagine some TV personnel are losing their jobs or worse)."


Elsewhere, a Russian source also notes that the footage of the "massacre" was uploaded to YouTube a few hours before the events allegedly took place  :popcorn:


Source: [size=78%]http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/20/putin-propagandists-caught-red-handed-again-pro-russian-self-defense-forces-capture-snipers-diapers/ (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/04/20/putin-propagandists-caught-red-handed-again-pro-russian-self-defense-forces-capture-snipers-diapers/)[/size]

As I noted earlier . . . that is a country full of chicken shit people.

And they even know it; and are proud of it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 10:09:32 AM

LivefromUkraine's translation: "I search for evidence that  Yanukovych was impeached illegally but BillyB is right, Yanukovych was relieved from office because he failed to perform his duties, not impeached over misconduct. The illegal impeachment of Yanukovych I'm upset about was never an impeachment at all. I don't want to embarrass myself admitting I'm wrong in front of the forum so I'll make fun of BillyB instead.


More BillyB Translation:


"I'm going to continue to make stuff up like Yanu was relieved from office even though there is no law stating he can be relieved from office.  Yanu can only resign, die or be impeached to be relieved from office.  Since LiveFromUkraine is correct on the impeachment laws, I will make up a story that he can be relieved for not performing his duties.   If I continue to make stuff up someone will believe me."


Quote
Ukraine’s parliament voted to impeach the president, Viktor Yanukovych, and strip him of his powers after three months of street protests. Yanukovych fled Kiev and said he would battle to stay in power. “They are trying to scare me. I have no intention of leaving the country. I am not going to resign, I’m the legitimately elected president,” he said in a television interview
]http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates)

Billy, you should write to the site I linked too and let them know they got it all wrong.  I look forward to your next "Story". 

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:00:02 AM
Ukraine’s parliament voted to impeach the president, Viktor Yanukovych, and strip him of his powers after three months of street protests. Yanukovych fled Kiev and said he would battle to stay in power. “They are trying to scare me. I have no intention of leaving the country. I am not going to resign, I’m the legitimately elected president,” he said in a television interview
 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates)

Billy, you should write to the site I linked too and let them know they got it all wrong.  I look forward to your next "Story". 


First of all, you two sound so childish with "he said, he said."
 
Also, how do you battle staying in power? By stealing all the gold fixtures from the toilets and bathroom sinks that were on his stolen property? BTW, where are all the expensive cars he was amassing as president? No, not the Soviet POS relics he left behind.
 
This is how you fight to stay in power?
 
Damn! I want some power too!!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 11:03:07 AM

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates)

Billy, you should write to the site I linked too and let them know they got it all wrong.  I look forward to your next "Story". 


 
First of all, you two sound so childish with "he said, he said."
 
Also, how do you battle staying in power? By stealing all the gold fixtures from the toilets and bathroom sinks that were on his stolen property? BTW, where are all the expensive cars he was amassing as president? No, not the Soviet POS relics he left behind.
 
This is how you fight to stay in power?
 
Damn! I want some power too!!


Ah, the expert in being childish does speaketh. 


What is your point dude?  That he stole stuff?  Duh, he was just like all of them and the next one will be the same. 


Cmon, make your point or are you just jealous of his golden bathroom throne?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:04:52 AM

Ah, the expert in being childish. 


What is your point dude?  That he stole stuff?  Duh, he was just like all of them and the next one will be the same. 


Cmon, make your point.

 
Just for you since you like to bob and weave.
 
 :blowkiss:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 11:05:42 AM

 
Just for you since you like to bob and weave.
 
 :blowkiss:


Must suck getting old and not able to bob and weave.  Try some yoga.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:07:33 AM

Must suck getting old and not able to bob and weave.  Try some yoga.  ;)

Sorry loverboy, I'll leave the flexibility to you, you young stud.
 
Now, BOHICA.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 11:08:56 AM

 
Now, BOHICA.


Ah, it all makes sense now.  You are batting for the other team.  You're just one of the gals... no wonder you white knight.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:12:21 AM
And so it starts, they (http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/04/22/services/) are starting to isolate themselves...
 
Shades of Dr. Goebbels
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:15:46 AM

Ah, it all makes sense now.  You are batting for the other team.  You're just one of the gals... no wonder you white knight.

LMFAO
 
Oh dear. Are you so sure of your manhood? Really?
 
One more
 
 :blowkiss:
 
 :flowers:
 
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 11:17:33 AM

LMFAO
 
Oh dear. Are you so sure of your manhood? Really?
 
One more
 
 :blowkiss:
 
 :flowers:


Men don't go around telling other men to bend over where I am from if that is what you mean.  Thanks for the flowers but this dialog has nothing to do with this thread topic.  Maybe try Craigslist or whatever site you guys meet each other.   :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:27:37 AM

Men don't go around telling other men to bend over where I am from if that is what you mean.  Thanks for the flowers but this dialog has nothing to do with this thread topic.  Maybe try Craigslist or whatever site you guys meet each other.   :o

Where men are men and the sheep run scared?
 
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/cringe_zps3a342d45.gif)
 
Okay, okay
 
The fragility of it all.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 11:31:40 AM

Where men are men and the sheep run scared?
 

The fragility of it all.  :rolleyes:


No, I'm not from New Zealand and AnotherKiwi won't appreciate your humor.   :-\


I asked you for your point and you decided to tell me to bend over.    :rolleyes:   I take it you didn't have a point and were just doing the usual Muzh thing.


(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwmmh6CipC1r54d6ao1_400.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 22, 2014, 11:58:59 AM

No, I'm not from New Zealand and AnotherKiwi won't appreciate your humor.   :-\


I asked you for your point and you decided to tell me to bend over.    :rolleyes:   I take it you didn't have a point and were just doing the usual Muzh thing.


(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwmmh6CipC1r54d6ao1_400.jpg)

Now who's having old age issues? You are not that old, I've seen you. So it must be something else.
 
Just to refresh your memory:
 
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg365892#msg365892 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg365892#msg365892)
 
Where did I say to bend over?
 
Actually, who started the ad hominem?
 
Come on, I'm pretty sure that if you think long and hard you'll remember.
 
There you go, now that we agree you started the ad hominem I'll try to explain the term. It is meant for toadies, not festive people. I'm pretty sure festive people will also agree the term is for toadies.
 
You are showing some insecurities there, sweetheart.  ;D
 
And it is not nice to insult New Zelanders for no reason.
 
Tsk Tsk
 
You have to control those ad hominems. They might come back and bite you in the ass. If you know what I mean.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 22, 2014, 12:05:11 PM

 
(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/cringe_zps3a342d45.gif)




(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lwmmh6CipC1r54d6ao1_400.jpg)

 :ROFL:


LMAO!!! Where the heck do you guys get these graphics from?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2014, 12:51:19 PM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/23/ukraine-crisis-yanukovych-tymoshenko-live-updates)

Billy, you should write to the site I linked too and let them know they got it all wrong.  I look forward to your next "Story". 



Yes, that site got it wrong. Lots of journalists and news organizations never read what Yanukovych was ousted for, they just reported "impeached" right after the vote and some people like you and Russia ran with the story talking about Ukraine's constitution was violated because there was not enough votes.


Go find out for yourself what the parliament voted on in the ousting of Yanukovych. He was removed because he could not fulfill the duties of his job. That was the issue that was voted on, not a vote on Yanukovych's misconduct. Impeachment would mean he was found guilty of misconduct or crimes. Yanukovych hasn't been put on trial for that yet. Maybe Yanukovych's Wiki biography page can help you? You will learn he has never been impeached in his life so it's best you and a few others stop debating something that's never happened.


My guess is you're still upset Yanukovych was ousted, in massive denial, and will still run with the impeachment story. Before Putin found value in Yanukovych, he said it himself that Yanukovych has no political future in Ukraine after getting ousted. Parliament voted in Ukraine's interim government with 371 votes. It's time to move on and let Yanukovych go. They did.


You avoided my question earlier and anybody can answer it, especially since the Ukraine Constitution is important to some people. Article 73 says matters that split Ukraine's territory up must be decided by all of Ukraine. That means Crimea's split and east Ukraine's soon to be split is illegal. You guys and Putin can't pick and choose what you think is important, either respect all of Ukraine's Constitution or none of it.
Title: VICE News reporter detained
Post by: calmissile on April 22, 2014, 01:23:02 PM
Our hero journalist that has been providing news feeds from Ukraine has been detained by Pro-Russians in Ukraine.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/osce-calls-for-release-of-american-journalist-ostrovsky-others-in-eastern-ukraine-344665.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 22, 2014, 01:25:21 PM
And so it starts, they (http://lenta.ru/articles/2014/04/22/services/) are starting to isolate themselves...
 
Shades of Dr. Goebbels

And here too:

Quote
Navalny's conviction in Russia a chilling message

MOSCOW (AP) — A Moscow justice of the peace did not just fine Russian opposition leader Alexei Navalny $8,400 on Tuesday for slandering a lawmaker, she left the door open to locking up the Kremlin's most vocal critic in prison for years.

The move was also a warning shot at all those who dare to challenge President Vladimir Putin.

Navalny was nearly jailed last summer, when he was running a high-profile mayoral campaign in Moscow, but the Kremlin figured then he would be more useful if allowed to run. But now Putin, emboldened by an 80 percent approval rating and national euphoria over the annexation of Crimea, appears no longer willing to tolerate any criticism.

http://www.starnewsonline.com/article/20140422/API/304229796?Title=Navalny-s-conviction-in-Russia-a-chilling-message
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 01:29:37 PM

Yes, that site got it wrong. Lots of journalists and news organizations never read what Yanukovych was ousted for, they just reported "impeached" right after the vote and some people like you and Russia ran with the story talking about Ukraine's constitution was violated because there was not enough votes.


Go find out for yourself what the parliament voted on in the ousting of Yanukovych. He was removed because he could not fulfill the duties of his job. That was the issue that was voted on, not a vote on Yanukovych's misconduct. Impeachment would mean he was found guilty of misconduct or crimes. Yanukovych hasn't been put on trial for that yet. Maybe Yanukovych's Wiki biography page can help you? You will learn he has never been impeached in his life so it's best you and a few others stop debating something that's never happened.




You mean the same wiki that has this quote?


Quote
The Ukrainian parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verkhovna_Rada) voted on 22 February to remove him from his post on the grounds that he was unable to fulfill his duties although the legislative removal lacked the required votes according to the constitution in effect at the time




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych)

 :ROFL:   I do appreciate you backing up what I have been saying.  He was illegally removed!


 As far as why he was ousted, I don't care what you or any website says.  I want to see the law that says he can be put out for nonperformance of duties and what the process for doing so is. 


You can't seem to do it.  All you have is a wiki link which anyone can edit. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2014, 02:02:25 PM
I do appreciate you backing up what I have been saying. 



Wiki didn't agree with you that he was impeached. Here's what I said in another thread. "Yanukovych was relieved because he wasn't fulfilling his duties, not because he's impeached over misconduct or crimes. Article 111 in the Ukrainian constitution requires 3/4 votes for impeachment. Not fulfilling duties doesn't fall under the impeachment process of Article 111."


As far as why he was ousted, I don't care what you or any website says.



You're not lying and it's part of the problem that allows you spread misinformation without educating yourself



I want to see the law that says he can be put out for nonperformance of duties and what the process for doing so is. 


The Ukrainian constitution has been linked on the forum and elsewhere on the internet.


Article 108

The President of Ukraine exercises his or her powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.

The powers of the President of Ukraine terminate prior to the expiration of term in cases of:
1.resignation;
2.inability to exercise his or her powers for reasons of health;
3.removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;
4.death.


Yanukovych did give a verbal resignation but his official ousting IMO falls in line with #2 since his mind and body isn't available to perform the duties of the president. Your and other people's mistake is taking article 111 and it's impeachment procedures and applying those rules to each and every way a president is to lose his job. Does death require a 3/4 vote too to oust a president too?  :rolleyes: Those impeachment procedures and 3/4 majority vote requirement is only needed in cases of impeachment.


Somebody may not accept my #2 reason for ousting Yanukovych. One may claim failure to perform duties after not showing up for work is not listed in the constitution and there is no instructions given to parliament to take. Then it's even more reason the parliament didn't do anything illegal against the constitution when they ousted Yanukovych.


He was illegally removed!



Yep, keep spreading misinformation when all the facts are in front of you.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 22, 2014, 02:53:36 PM
LIU-

Why bother arguing with a clod? He's got information in front of him yet he still have difficulties understanding what he reads. He can't even get past 'non-binding'.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 03:06:36 PM
LIU-

Why bother arguing with a clod? He's got information in front of him yet he still have difficulties understanding what he reads. He can't even get past 'non-binding'.


I don't know, I get a sense of enjoyment when he actually does cite a source and it backs up what you and I have been saying.  I can see now why he doesn't post more links.  haha  He totally tried to ignore his own source stating there wasn't enough votes.  A thing of beauty.


BillyB,


It's kind of strange some members of parliament introduced a new impeachment bill right at the same time.  Coincidence?  Doubtful.


http://rt.com/news/president-impeachment-bill-parliament-174/ (http://rt.com/news/president-impeachment-bill-parliament-174/)



Kyiv Post also considers it an impeachment


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html)



So does Aljazeera
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/02/ukraine-parliament-ousts-president-yanukovich-2014222152035601620.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/02/ukraine-parliament-ousts-president-yanukovich-2014222152035601620.html)

Verbal resignations mean nothing.  If it was in writing there wouldn't be any confusion.


A coup can be detrimental to your health but his health is fine.  Our President would have been taken to a safe place if the same thing occurred here.  Next you will try to say he was removed because he stubbed his toe or got a splinter in his finger.

He is still alive according to his television performances.


You agree he wasn't legally impeached so that can't be it.

You're trying to stretch it beyond belief now and you say I and some others are the ones who are not dealing with reality.  Unlike you, I am not married to my argument which is why I have been asking for proof he was legally removed.  So far, you have just proved he was indeed illegally remove regardless if you believe it was an impeachment or not.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on April 22, 2014, 04:55:00 PM




Fathertime, are you by chance a Rand Paul fan? Some people know him as an isolationist and conservative. Some conservatives have criticized Rand for changing his stance on Ukraine. Some of the things Rand Paul have been saying lately shows he's willing to take action on Ukraine and portray himself as a tough, Ronald Reagan, kind of guy. I think Rand Paul is open to changing his views on foreign policy since Putin's action has opened his eyes on what leaders can do and the way they want to shape the world. Below is a quote from Rand Paul:


" I think that sometimes want to stand up and say hey, look at me, I’m the next Ronald Reagan. Well, almost all of us in the party are big fans of Ronald Reagan,” Paul said.

“I’ve always been a big fan of peace through strength. I think America should and has a responsibility around the world and really, virtually all of the opinions that have been coming from Republicans are somewhat the same on this – that Putin should be condemned, he should be isolated. I favor sanctions on Putin. So, for people to characterize that as somehow not being the Reagan position, I think they need to have a re-reading of Reagan, frankly,”


Hey Billyb....I will go and look up Rand Paul's entire stance on this issue when i get a chance....I did like Ron Paul's philosophy towards aid and foreign intervention...but I will have to see where Rand differs.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 22, 2014, 05:24:52 PM
Why bother arguing with a clod?



Why do people resort to name calling when they lose a debate? I'll take that comment as your official surrender.



http://rt.com/news/president-impeachment-bill-parliament-174/ (http://rt.com/news/president-impeachment-bill-parliament-174/)


http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv/euromaidan-rallies-in-ukraine-feb-21-live-updates-337287.html)


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/02/ukraine-parliament-ousts-president-yanukovich-2014222152035601620.html (http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/02/ukraine-parliament-ousts-president-yanukovich-2014222152035601620.html)



Notice the dates those articles were written? Notice how although the media reported a vote, they mislabeled what the vote was about? Notice some of the articles talk about an impeachment bill that was introduced by a lawmaker but it doesn't talk about whether or not it was voted on? Is it possible a bill that is introduced on the floor won't be entertained by other lawmakers thus never voted on?


Here is a timeline of events. You can Google it since you don't trust me and are in massive denial.


On 20 February, Minister of Internal Affairs Vitaliy Zakharchenko announced he had signed a decree authorising the use of live ammunition against protesters.[47] Central Kiev saw the worst violence yet, and the death toll in 48 hours of clashes rose to at least 77.[48] In response, the next day Chairman of the Ukrainian parliament Volodymyr Rybak announced he had signed a parliamentary decree, condemning the use of force and urging all institutions (Ministry of Internal Affairs, Cabinet of Ministers, etc.) to cease immediately all military actions against protesters.[49] The Ukrainian parliament also suspended Zakharchenko from his duties. Yanukovich's cabinet members aren't so nice but I suspect the order came from Yanukovych himself. People now are really pissed.


On 21 February, President Yanukovych signed a compromise deal with opposition leaders which would implement constitutional changes to hand powers back to parliament and early elections, to be held by December. Yay! Parliament has more power to do things and they go back to using the 2004 constitution for guidance. Parliament has the right to initiate early elections which will happen May 25. Like it or not, Yanukovych will be legally replaced May 25 so stop crying over his ousting.


On 21 February an impeachment bill was introduced in Ukrainian parliament,[52] but no details were provided and the Ukrainian parliament did not vote to impeach Yanukovich according to the legal procedure.[53] On 21 February Yanukovich left for Kharkov to attend a summit of south-eastern regions, according to media reports. Notice media reported this impeachment bill introduced on Feb 21? Introduced doesn't mean it was voted on. LivefromUkraine, nice trick with the selective news media articles but you're not going to fool me to believe the impeachment bill introduced was the one that was voted on. You and GQ should join Putin's propaganda team since you both work hard at fooling the readers here. Not only that, you truly believe what you're saying and those people are the best people to deliver propaganda.


On 22 February, Parliament voted to declare that the chair of the President is vacant due to the fact that Yanukovich left Ukraine and no longer exercise his duties. Aha! There it is! The vote was on Feb 22, not Feb 21 when the impeachment bill was introduced based on your selective news links. Now you understand what parliament actually voted on? Parliament chose to vote on Yanukovych's inability to perform his duties, not the impeachment bill which was rejected. Since Yanukovych wasn't impeached, you guys have been wasted massive amounts of time trying to convince people here that proper impeachment procedures and 3/4 majority vote are necessary in the ousting of Yanukovych. Nowhere in Ukraine's constitution say a 3/4 vote and impeachment procedures are necessary to relieve a president if he doesn't perform his duties. Don't take my word for it, Google some of these cut and paste words I've used and get yourself educated.



Unlike you, I am not married to my argument
.


My wife being Ukrainian has nothing to do about the way I think pertaining to world affairs. The power of the bush has little influence on me and I don't need to be a "yes" man to get into a woman's pants. I've told my wife the same things I've told you guys here. She likes it when I criticize Obama for being weak because she thinks of the Obama the same way. She doesn't like to hear my opinion that I respect Putin taking care of his country's interest.



Hey Billyb....I will go and look up Rand Paul's entire stance on this issue when i get a chance....I did like Ron Paul's philosophy towards aid and foreign intervention...but I will have to see where Rand differs.


Fathertime! 


Google some of the words I quoted Rand Paul on and you'll find his opinions pertaining to the current crisis in Ukraine. I was actually surprised he seems to want to react to Russia's actions. If he changes his opinion on foreign policy, I wouldn't hold it against him. Being a congressman, he has access to more intelligence on issues and their consequences than we, the common people.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on April 22, 2014, 05:37:03 PM


My wife being Ukrainian has nothing to do about the way I think pertaining to world affairs. The power of the bush has little influence on me and I don't need to be a "yes" man to get into a woman's pants. I've told my wife the same things I've told you guys here. She likes it when I criticize Obama for being weak because she thinks of the Obama the same way. She doesn't like to hear my opinion that I respect Putin taking care of his country's interest.




That wasn't what I meant.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on April 22, 2014, 05:55:45 PM

That wasn't what I meant.

 :ROFL: :ROFL:

See what I mean? A clod.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 23, 2014, 12:58:27 PM
Quote

The main objective in this new warfare is not so much to neutralize or vanquish the enemy as it is to fully persuade, control and manipulate the population you purport to "liberate." Through a relentless propaganda campaign, the people are turned into zombies, easily provoked into forming panic-stricken mobs capable of carrying out pogroms and ethnic cleansing. Sometimes they even sacrificing themselves as "living shields" before the guns of the enemy. Those refusing to get caught up in the general hysteria are cast out, beaten or murdered by the crowd.
 
As an example, thousands of people died in Palestine's anti-Jewish pogroms in 1936. But only several hundred Jews were killed. All the rest were Palestinians who had either sympathized with the Jews or refused to kill them.
 

Russia's New War Technology in Ukraine (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russias-new-war-technology-in-ukraine/498729.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 24, 2014, 07:47:41 AM
One more example of Russia's New War Technology in Ukraine (http://www.dw.de/ukraine-forces-kill-five-pro-russia-separatists-in-slovyansk/a-17588924)
 
Quote
Russian President Vladimir Putin said Thursday that the deployment of military in east Ukraine by the authorities in Kyiv was a crime against its own people that will "have consequences."
 
"If Kyiv really began to use the army against the country's population... that is a very serious crime against its own people," Putin was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.
 
"That is simply a punitive measure that will without question have consequences... including for our inter-governmental relations," he said. However, he did not specify the nature of consequences.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on April 24, 2014, 08:05:00 AM
One more example of Russia's New War Technology in Ukraine (http://www.dw.de/ukraine-forces-kill-five-pro-russia-separatists-in-slovyansk/a-17588924)

It is so wrong and hypocritical of Putin to say "...the deployment of military in east Ukraine by the authorities in Kyiv was a crime against its own people that will 'have consequences.' "

The Ukrainian military was deployed to stop Ukrainian people who were leading an insurgency against Ukraine.  Someone (Belvis, et al)  please explain the difference between the east Ukrainian insurgents and the Chechens who fought Russia for an independent Chechnya.   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 24, 2014, 08:20:20 AM
It is so wrong and hypocritical of Putin to say "...the deployment of military in east Ukraine by the authorities in Kyiv was a crime against its own people that will 'have consequences.' "

The Ukrainian military was deployed to stop Ukrainian people who were leading an insurgency against Ukraine.  Someone (Belvis, et al)  please explain the difference between the east Ukrainian insurgents and the Chechens who fought Russia for an independent Chechnya.   

Didn't someone coined the term "doublethink" for that kind of approach?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on April 24, 2014, 08:27:18 AM
It is so wrong and hypocritical of Putin to say "...the deployment of military in east Ukraine by the authorities in Kyiv was a crime against its own people that will 'have consequences.' "

The Ukrainian military was deployed to stop Ukrainian people who were leading an insurgency against Ukraine.  Someone (Belvis, et al)  please explain the difference between the east Ukrainian insurgents and the Chechens who fought Russia for an independent Chechnya.   

It would appear to me as more doublespeak lying and word parsing from Putin to set the table for further naked aggression on his part. Ukrainian troop movement inside Ukraine is Ukraine's business. Never mind that the troop movement is to defend it's soil from the Russian invader. He is attempting to make it sound as if the Ukrainian military is attacking it's own citizens, apparently so that when he attacks them, he can blame it on Ukraine. It's obvious the truth will not becoming from his lips. Gauge his actions
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 24, 2014, 10:21:09 AM
So here's Putler asking Ukraine to remove their armies from the eastern part so he can bring his own.
 
Putler sucks (http://news.liga.net/news/politics/1471686-rossiya_trebuet_chtoby_ukraina_ubrala_svoyu_armiyu_s_vostoka_strany.htm)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 24, 2014, 11:39:12 AM
The OSCE calls Putler a Fcuking Hypocrite (http://www.rferl.org/content/osce-slams-putin-for-the-height-of-hypocrisy/25361555.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 24, 2014, 11:44:08 AM
The Head of Russia Today posted "Ukraine RIP" (http://twitter.com/BBCDanielS/status/459390349396283392/photo/1)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 28, 2014, 01:09:37 PM
There are so many Putin lies. Who are the idiots who believe him?
For example: the idea that there are no Russian military personnel in Ukraine:

http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/27/why-moscow-revealed-strelkovs-identity/#more-7837 (http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/27/why-moscow-revealed-strelkovs-identity/#more-7837)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on April 28, 2014, 02:08:36 PM
There are so many Putin lies. Who are the idiots who believe him?
For example: the idea that there are no Russian military personnel in Ukraine:

http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/27/why-moscow-revealed-strelkovs-identity/#more-7837 (http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/27/why-moscow-revealed-strelkovs-identity/#more-7837)


Churchill once said "A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on."


Putin will say what he has to say to gain the advantage of staying a few steps ahead of everyone.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on April 28, 2014, 07:46:33 PM
strelkov interview was given only after he was pretty much already unmasked
by giving the interview he now has cast enough doubt on his identity & origins and his loyaltys aims of his involvement in ukraine ,

it gives to those who  are not sure of the power play at hand some semblence of truth about him while still creating doubt that he is russias man in charge on the ground

yet more skillfull disinformation and propoganda by the kremlin for the unbelievers of the russian stealth invasion going on in ukraine

succesfully masking some outragous lies with some basics truths from strelkov , gives rise to doubt and mistrust in many peoples minds of events on the ground and who is orchestrating /controlling it , exactly the result desired by putin in his chess game with  ukraine and the west

result is over anyalysis of contradicting information , distrust of all /any authority continued destabilisation and general paralysis on the ground , rather than concise decisive action to stop further erosion of ukraines sovereignty

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 28, 2014, 08:39:38 PM
Did you see the video I posted showing little green men invading a police station? That's what we need more people to see, especially Putin's citizens. Putin calls these military guys, 'protesters', who have bought military clothing at the local army/navy store. Ha. The videos speak volumes. Here is a short video of what Putin has been calling 'Russian speaking protesters'. All Russians should watch this:
http://say.tv/220792/video/embed/30293/0a490d90bbd88f74817289cfb23e4a3f
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 28, 2014, 08:58:23 PM
Ideas from a Ukrainian. Propaganda?:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interview-with-ukrainian-presidential-candidate-petro-poroshenko/2014/04/25/74c73a48-cbbd-11e3-93eb-6c0037dde2ad_story.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on April 29, 2014, 02:04:37 AM
strelkov ...
You mean Igor Girkyn? The one that is Russian citizen, Colonel, born December 17, 1970, russian passport number: № 4506460961, registered in Moscow at Shenkursky passage 8B, apartment 136?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa82z8vL_EE
http://gazeta.ua/ru/articles/politics/_sbu-nazvala-nastoyaschee-imya-rossijskogo-diversanta-strelkova/554917
http://ru.tsn.ua/svit/russkiy-diversant-strelkov-smenil-imya-pered-tem-kak-ehat-v-ukrainu-363110.html

Right now he better return home and take care of his own family.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 29, 2014, 04:18:41 PM
'...There are many more examples where Russian officials talk of patriotism and unity of the Russian people, while their children and other relatives reside abroad...'
from this article:

http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/29/children-of-russian-officials-prefer-overseas/#more-7966

Oh, I guess some Russians think life in the EU is not so bad.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 30, 2014, 12:03:00 PM
Irony.
If Putin is concerned about the new Ukraine having free trade with the EU, his actions have actually hurt Russia's trade with the EU, and pushed Ukraine toward the EU, while making Russia appear untrustworthy. So, it's not about trade. It's about Putin being emotional, throwing a tantrum. What does Putin want? Can he put it into words? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on April 30, 2014, 12:27:58 PM
Ukrainian Fascist attack peaceful pro-Russian demonstrators. (http://euromaidanpr.com/2014/04/30/donetsk-blogger-attack-on-ukrainian-rally-was-attack-by-russian-nazis-upon-ukrainians-for-being-ukrainian-ethnic-cleansing/#more-7984)


Vicious Ukrainian Fascists attack Peaceful Pro-Russians (http://graphics.france24.com/ukraine_unity_rally_violence/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on April 30, 2014, 12:44:51 PM
Those two links actually show the opposite. Maybe that was your point. Buildings are being occupied in eastern Ukraine by Russian militia, with assault rifles. Protesters for Ukrainian unity are just regular folks, common citizens, who are attacked by radicals. The local police have been doing nothing to protect buildings or citizens.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on April 30, 2014, 12:53:01 PM
Those two links actually show the opposite. Maybe that was your point. Buildings are being occupied in eastern Ukraine by Russian militia, with assault rifles. Protesters for Ukrainian unity are just regular folks, common citizens, who are attacked by radicals. The local police have been doing nothing to protect buildings or citizens.

I'm pretty sure that was his point.

Quote
The pro-Russian militants return to their headquarters, the regional administration building, where a support committee crying ‘Down with Nazism’ awaits them. 

That's rich!  Those gentlemen wearing balaclavas and beating unarmed rally-attenders with clubs act just like Hitler's brownshirts acted, REAL Nazis.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on May 05, 2014, 02:15:56 PM
Those two links actually show the opposite. Maybe that was your point. Buildings are being occupied in eastern Ukraine by Russian militia, with assault rifles. Protesters for Ukrainian unity are just regular folks, common citizens, who are attacked by radicals. The local police have been doing nothing to protect buildings or citizens.


<wink, wink>
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on May 06, 2014, 02:41:02 AM
It is so wrong and hypocritical of Putin to say "...the deployment of military in east Ukraine by the authorities in Kyiv was a crime against its own people that will 'have consequences.' "

The Ukrainian military was deployed to stop Ukrainian people who were leading an insurgency against Ukraine.  Someone (Belvis, et al)  please explain the difference between the east Ukrainian insurgents and the Chechens who fought Russia for an independent Chechnya.   
As soon as you explain the difference between the actions of Yanukovich and the actions of the current government against demonstrants.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on May 06, 2014, 01:18:45 PM
Oops


The official results of the Crimean Referendum (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/) are not what they seem to be.


It seems that someone at the Russian Ministry of Propaganda made a big boo-boo and let the cat out of the bag long enough for some savvy sleuths to catch the "slight" misinterpretation of the numbers.


But of course, the vast majority of the people in Crimea voted (cough, bullshevik) for annexation.


Yea, and pigs fly.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on May 06, 2014, 01:25:19 PM
Oops


The official results of the Crimean Referendum (http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2014/05/05/putins-human-rights-council-accidentally-posts-real-crimean-election-results-only-15-voted-for-annexation/) are not what they seem to be.


It seems that someone at the Russian Ministry of Propaganda made a big boo-boo and let the cat out of the bag long enough for some savvy sleuths to catch the "slight" misinterpretation of the numbers.


But of course, the vast majority of the people in Crimea voted (cough, bullshevik) for annexation.


Yea, and pigs fly.
That is why Ukraine has now closed the border with Crimea, is cutting off water supply and is afraid as hell the people from there will join in the civil war.
So tell me, how does Ukraine expect to hold their presidential elections in Crimea? Or perhaps they will hold them only in Kiev, so it will be easier to get a result.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on May 06, 2014, 01:37:12 PM
That is why Ukraine has now closed the border with Crimea, is cutting off water supply and is afraid as hell the people from there will join in the civil war.
So tell me, how does Ukraine expect to hold their presidential elections in Crimea? Or perhaps they will hold them only in Kiev, so it will be easier to get a result.


If you haven't got a feed from Russia's Ministry of Propaganda, that's understandable. They seem to run late in fabricating stories.


Notice that the Tatars are being beaten the crap out of them because they want to enter Krim? Who do you think is closing the borders? What the Ukrainians are doing (finally) is not allowing the Russian "tourist" to enter Ukraine. They are considered unstable and malign. Also, they are preparing for elections in Eastern Ukraine. But, somehow that information will not be available from Russia's Ministry of Propaganda. Do you remember the Ministry of Propaganda? (http://www.rferl.org/media/video/russian-state-tv-anchor-any-propaganda-is-journalism/25375248.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on May 06, 2014, 01:44:11 PM

If you haven't got a feed from Russia's Ministry of Propaganda, that's understandable. They seem to run late in fabricating stories.


Notice that the Tatars are being beaten the crap out of them because they want to enter Krim? Who do you think is closing the borders? What the Ukrainians are doing (finally) is not allowing the Russian "tourist" to enter Ukraine. They are considered unstable and malign. Also, they are preparing for elections in Eastern Ukraine. But, somehow that information will not be available from Russia's Ministry of Propaganda. Do you remember the Ministry of Propaganda? (http://www.rferl.org/media/video/russian-state-tv-anchor-any-propaganda-is-journalism/25375248.html)
I am asking how they will hold election in the Crimea area. If they believe it is still part of Ukraine they should.
So if they do not plan to hold elections there, it is clear that even Ukraine does no longer see Crimea part of their country.

That is the hypocritical stance of the Ukrainian government, the fascists will not rest until they have absolute power.
They are totalitarian and unstable in nature. But as they are considered the 'good guys' they can get away with anything as long as the propaganda machine works.

Sleep tight, dream of the pink elephants that you are shown.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on May 06, 2014, 03:05:04 PM
To believe Russian media propaganda to be the most credible source of news on the Russian invasion of Ukraine is to suck off the Russian disinformation teat to the max. Shadow, you are a priceless example of the sheeple deserving the dictatorship which they support.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on May 06, 2014, 03:44:46 PM
To believe Russian media propaganda to be the most credible source of news on the Russian invasion of Ukraine is to suck off the Russian disinformation teat to the max. Shadow, you are a priceless example of the sheeple deserving the dictatorship which they support.


I don't know, I can see quite a few examples on this forum that will give Shadow a running for the "priceless" prize.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on May 06, 2014, 03:54:29 PM
To believe Russian media propaganda to be the most credible source of news on the Russian invasion of Ukraine is to suck off the Russian disinformation teat to the max. Shadow, you are a priceless example of the sheeple deserving the dictatorship which they support.

You know what disgusts me?  We have people on this forum that are suffering because of Putin's policies in Ukraine and do we sympathize with them?  No. Some of us cheerlead for the bastard in Moscow. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on May 07, 2014, 12:28:02 AM
To believe Russian media propaganda to be the most credible source of news on the Russian invasion of Ukraine is to suck off the Russian disinformation teat to the max. Shadow, you are a priceless example of the sheeple deserving the dictatorship which they support.
Tells someone  who probabl feels its ok to drive 200 people in to a building and burn them
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on May 07, 2014, 12:28:39 AM
You know what disgusts me?  We have people on this forum that are suffering because of Putin's policies in Ukraine and do we sympathize with them?  No. Some of us cheerlead for the bastard in Moscow.
You told you had stopped hating the Russians. Hypocrite.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on May 08, 2014, 12:19:01 AM
Quoting--
Odessa Odious "mourners" in Moscow told about 300 corpses and ammonia in the House of Trade Unions (video) A woman named Mary, known for its trip to the Crimea before the referendum, along with her ​​friends appeared in Moscow, where he told about events in Odessa. corresponding video appeared on the YouTube channel of the Communist Party. One of the Russian deputies "helped from Odessa to leave the territory of Ukraine", and, of course, talked with them on camera. As during his visit to Sevastopol, Mary tearfully voiced facts interspersed with rumors. For starters, it had an activist "Kulikovo Field", although only two months ago publicly accused the leader of the camp Anton Davidchenko proplacheny and conspiracy in the Maidan. She also spoke about the brutal murder of the priest: "Killed Father, who blessed me and bring girlfriend signatures for Russian language for the referendum (in Sevastopol - Ed.) - Lamented Maria. - He was shot, and then cut a cross on his chest. " Then the women reported the deputy on the number of victims of the riots on May 2: "They said 46 people were killed and more than two hundred, about three hundred! Only 126 people were in the basement of the House of Trade Unions, and then there were already dead. MOE employee promised to give us accurate information about where the bodies were taken away "- they assured. And in the end, women and all responded to the question that is still puzzling experts - called the exact cause of the deaths of Kulikovo " In the House of Trade Unions they threw Molotov cocktails, already filled with ammonia, so that people immediately suffocated ". http://freeua.net/obshestvo/1328-odioznye-odesskie-pl ..
Title: Re: The Propaganda War--She's back!!
Post by: JayH on May 10, 2014, 04:12:08 PM
She's back again !!!   & again & again & again etc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=El1UXZgEfvQ


 :deadhorse: :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on May 12, 2014, 07:51:37 AM
And Again !!
And now in Donetsk !!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYlDRUnzvsc


She has appeared over the last few months in many guises  at many of the different hotspots.
One hell of a coincidence  to be such an unlucky resident on such diverse areas of Ukraine-- and for the media to keep "choosing" her to do TV interviews!!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on May 12, 2014, 01:02:57 PM
and for the media to keep "choosing" her to do TV interviews!!



Can't you see why? She's got lots of cleavage.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on May 13, 2014, 06:49:12 AM
Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer, has expand edits Board of Directors by bringing onMr. R Hunter Biden as a new director.


http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/ (http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/)


I am sure this is just a coincidence.


For our non-USA members, R Hunter Biden is the son of our Vice President.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on May 13, 2014, 07:24:26 AM
Burisma Holdings, Ukraine’s largest private gas producer, has expand edits Board of Directors by bringing onMr. R Hunter Biden as a new director.


http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/ (http://burisma.com/hunter-biden-joins-the-team-of-burisma-holdings/)


I am sure this is just a coincidence.


For our non-USA members, R Hunter Biden is the son of our Vice President.

The page isn't opening, Live.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on May 13, 2014, 07:26:52 AM
The page isn't opening, Live.


Yeah, it took quite some time to load here. It was a press release. 


Another article using some quick googlekungfu.


http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/farce-complete-joe-bidens-son-joins-board-largest-ukraine-gas-producer (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-05-13/farce-complete-joe-bidens-son-joins-board-largest-ukraine-gas-producer)


I was waiting for JayH to post this but it may not have appeared on Yahoo.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on May 13, 2014, 07:39:04 AM
Thanks Live! What an incredibly surprising news, no? I am shocked at such a coincidence! It almost looks like there's some funny shaking going on around this crisis in Ukraine. I can only hope not too many Ukrainians pay for their lives in this whole mess..

Anyway, the dude looks like ex-Laker Rick Fox.

...I was waiting for JayH to post this but it may not have appeared on Yahoo....

LOL... The Jay - *If you want to know what I think read this article* - H?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on May 13, 2014, 02:10:39 PM
FWIW, the erstwhile now absentee Dean of the forum posted on his blog the absence of many foreign dignitaries and tourists from this year's VD.  Perhaps this because of the malfeasance of the EU-US neocon Russophobia craze.  Angela Merkel, a Putin friend from way back also AWOL from the Putin muscle flex.  How will they attract foreign investment? Maybe by paying people to troll the internet.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 16, 2014, 11:00:12 PM
A really interesting interview from eastern Ukraine. Also available in English and Ukrainian:
http://inforesist.org/glava-profsoyuza-gornyakov-donbassa-my-plevok-putina-v-nashu-dushu-ne-sterpim/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on May 17, 2014, 04:45:38 AM
A really interesting interview from eastern Ukraine. Also available in English and Ukrainian:
http://inforesist.org/glava-profsoyuza-gornyakov-donbassa-my-plevok-putina-v-nashu-dushu-ne-sterpim/

The interviewer is a Russian and the interviewee is a Donbass trade unionist.  It is humorous and informative.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 26, 2014, 01:46:02 AM
This video went viral. It really shows a reality. A truth in eastern Ukraine:
http://youtu.be/DFDVEUEg5Pk
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 26, 2014, 01:51:08 AM
People in Russia need to watch that video.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on May 26, 2014, 02:14:59 AM
People in Russia need to watch that video.

I posted this link earlier-- and reports of the aftermath where she and her children/family were threatened by the local thugs. They went into hiding as a result.
Todays election results confirm that  the huge majority want a free independant Ukraine.
That is one brave lady in the video-- but scenes like that have been repeated many times. This Russian sponsored terrorism is unwanted-- everywhere.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17402.msg367971#msg367971
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on May 28, 2014, 03:48:17 PM
Great video
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on May 29, 2014, 04:09:09 AM

The network has the fake photos of children allegedly killed in eastern Ukraine

http://www.stopfake.org/v-seti-poyavilis-fejkovye-foto-detej-yakoby-ubityh-na-vostoke-ukrainy/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 29, 2014, 07:28:38 PM
Here is an interview with a Ukrainian in Slavyansk near Donetsk. I'll post it in Russian too.
http://inforesist.org/slavyansk-resident-euphoria-wow-our-guys-are-in-town-has-already-gone/?lang=en (http://inforesist.org/slavyansk-resident-euphoria-wow-our-guys-are-in-town-has-already-gone/?lang=en)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 29, 2014, 07:31:00 PM
The interview, in Russian.
http://inforesist.org/zhitel-slavyanska-ejforiya-vauu-nashi-prishli-uzhe-zakonchilas/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 29, 2014, 08:11:31 PM
Lavrov tells Kerry that he is interested in a 'peaceful solution'. He tells Kerry that Ukraine should stop its military operation in eastern Ukraine. Kerry should've confronted him with the facts- Russian citizens/mercenaries have been killed in Donetsk, after taking over the airport. Their bodies are now being sent back to Russia. Lavrov, please have Putin remove Russian military from Ukraine, as a peaceful solution.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on May 30, 2014, 07:55:19 PM
PG, do you trust this administration to tie their shoes?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 30, 2014, 09:26:01 PM
Obama is weak and inept. Kerry is taking the correct stance. Putin is erratic, immature, and full of revenge. Trust is out of my hands. I can only be hopeful. I hope Ukraine's border becomes sealed, secure. I hope Ukraine receives military support from somewhere, anywhere- Poland? Canada?
Glory to Ukraine!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 30, 2014, 10:10:27 PM
Quote from a woman in eastern Urkaine:
'Russia, my motherland, will do everything possible to smash and divide us here.'
Remark from the following video at about 9:02:

http://youtu.be/XtdVVFhjdqA
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: deccie on May 30, 2014, 10:20:56 PM
I posted this link earlier-- and reports of the aftermath where she and her children/family were threatened by the local thugs. They went into hiding as a result.
Todays election results confirm that  the huge majority want a free independant Ukraine.
That is one brave lady in the video-- but scenes like that have been repeated many times. This Russian sponsored terrorism is unwanted-- everywhere.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17402.msg367971#msg367971 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17402.msg367971#msg367971)

And I guess US sponsored terrorism is wanted eh?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: deccie on May 30, 2014, 10:34:25 PM
You know what disgusts me?  We have people on this forum that are suffering because of Putin's policies in Ukraine and do we sympathize with them?  No. Some of us cheerlead for the bastard in Moscow.
One could say exactly the same about some US led wars of recent decades.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on May 30, 2014, 11:09:40 PM
And I guess US sponsored terrorism is wanted eh?

You really are proving what an idiot you are.
None of this is about the US per se.
It is about  Russian lies and propaganda-- with lots of CURRENT examples.
Russian propaganda has been so ridiculous it is hard to beleive anyone swallows it.
btw-- bother to read the forum and you will see some fools have already been down your path-- and the nonsense rebutted.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on May 30, 2014, 11:12:41 PM
One could say exactly the same about some US led wars of recent decades.

An America hater!!!!

Anything to justify your Putin love
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: deccie on May 31, 2014, 02:56:18 AM
An America hater!!!!

Anything to justify your Putin love

I do not hate Americans. I have many long term and dear American friends. I hate what American foreign policy has become and the idea that we must all cow tow to the way your country wants things in the world.

Supposedly you want free trade - yet you subsidze your farmers more than most do. You wage open war on the most flimsy of excuses (iraq) later proven to be false.  I do not like having your military based in my country.  Nor do I like the current international battles going on at the moment over GM food and American companies seeking to control the food supply globally. Or your American banks that make billions in profits yet all they actually do is destroy the lives of others. Your country has a history of creating civil wars in many countries for the purposes of installing another government more favourable one towards the US. In that regard I don't think the people of Chile will forgive you for a long, long time to come. You openly flout international law when it suits you to do so yet demand others adhere to it.

Yes, there are many things i do not like about the US. 

I would add even the ability to travel is substantially different between Russia and here. For Russia all  I need is a visa and invitation and I'm done. Just to transit the USA I  need to be fingerprinted. Who is the more paranoid and controlling of the two? It seems to me it is the USA. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: deccie on May 31, 2014, 03:00:20 AM
You really are proving what an idiot you are.


And you are proving you like to insult others. A typical defence of the weak minded.

None of this is about the US per se.

Of course it is since the US is involved here.

It is about  Russian lies and propaganda-- with lots of CURRENT examples.
Russian propaganda has been so ridiculous it is hard to beleive anyone swallows it.
btw-- bother to read the forum and you will see some fools have already been down your path-- and the nonsense rebutted.

So that makes American propoganda ok does it? I also find it hard to believe anyone swallows THAT particular drivel.
Then again it is hard for most Americans to actually find Ukraine on a map.

I know what I will find in the archives - more of your abusive language.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on May 31, 2014, 04:35:16 AM

I would add even the ability to travel is substantially different between Russia and here. For Russia all  I need is a visa and invitation and I'm done.
I would like to add my two cent's worth as I had first hand experience in applying for a Russian visa from my trip to St. Pete last year. To apply for the visa you will need a tourist voucher and invitation letter from the place you will be staying at. This pretty much forces you to stay at a hotel and not rent a private apartment as apartment landlords can't supply you with the tourist voucher.

The Russian visa application form is at least twice as long as the Ukrainian visa application form. For example the Russian form asks you stupid questions like who is your previous previous employer and whether you had ever joined any clubs/organisations etc. It's almost like they are trying to discourage tourist from coming to Russia by making the visa application form a P.I.T.A. What? They think that someone from a first world country is going to overstay in Russia and immigrate there illegally?

Not to mention about the need to register once you get there. That's just an excuse for the hotel to earn an extra thousand roubles from you.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: deccie on May 31, 2014, 04:51:32 AM
I would like to add my two cent's worth as I had first hand experience in applying for a Russian visa from my trip to St. Pete last year. To apply for the visa you will need a tourist voucher and invitation letter from the place you will be staying at. This pretty much forces you to stay at a hotel and not rent a private apartment as apartment landlords can't supply you with the tourist voucher.

Incorrect. I've only ever stayed at a hotel in St Petersburg and Moscow 3 times out of more than 20 odd trips since 2006 and applied for visas in Russian consulates spread over more than 3 countries. YOU may have gone that way, but there is absolutely no need to.
Your incompetence should not be taken to advise others.

The Russian visa application form is at least twice as long as the Ukrainian visa application form. For example the Russian form asks you stupid questions like who is your previous previous employer and whether you had ever joined any clubs/organisations etc. It's almost like they are trying to discourage tourist from coming to Russia by making the visa application form a P.I.T.A. What? They think that someone from a first world country is going to overstay in Russia and immigrate there illegally?

And what do your own wives and girlfriends think about the Visa process to visit you in Australia? How easy was that for them?
The Russian policy is one of reciprocation. They will make the visa process easy for people from one country if that same country makes it easy for Russians to visit them.

Not to mention about the need to register once you get there. That's just an excuse for the hotel to earn an extra thousand roubles from you.

The registration process is a left over from the communist days but it is not a federal system - it's a local government one. But remember too that Russians themselves have registration and cannot get access to some government services without it.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on May 31, 2014, 05:23:20 AM

The Russian policy is one of reciprocation. They will make the visa process easy for people from one country if that same country makes it easy for Russians to visit them.
Point is, in this age of global competition for the tourist dollar, RU is putting itself in a disadvantage by making its visa application troublesome. But then again Russia probably prefers its foreign exchange revenue to come from selling oil & gas instead of from the tourist dollar. Safer that way as there will be less chance of us evil westerners going over there to corrupt the minds of their patriotic citizens!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chicagoguy on May 31, 2014, 05:44:24 AM
For years I used "Go To Russia" for my visas. They have a service where they can get you a Business Visa vs. a tourist or home stay. They will find an invite for you. Now I am working on a 3 year visa. This way you do not need a hotel.

But you still must register sometime after you arrive. Since I did not use hotels - who usually do this for free - I needed help from a friend, wife [ Ovir office ] or once a cheap hotel who was willing to bend the rules and stamp it for $15. Also, "Go To Russia" can do this for you.

A couple times I just plain forgot and all I got was suspicious looks at Passport Control when I left but I am not comfortable doing this any longer. They could take you aside long enough for you to miss your plane.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on May 31, 2014, 07:29:31 AM
...To apply for the visa you will need a tourist voucher and invitation letter from the place you will be staying at. This pretty much forces you to stay at a hotel and not rent a private apartment as apartment landlords can't supply you with the tourist voucher.

Sleepycat, invitations (whether for tourist or business visas) are available from dozens of travel agencies on the internet.  I presume that you would have done the same as me if you had flown directly from this part of the world - you would have ended up in Moscow first, rather than going directly to St Petersburg.  Have a night or two in a hotel, get your visa registered (hopefully by a friendly person who will cover the whole of your stay in Russia), then go on to St Petersburg.  If you can't get it registered by your hotel or apartment manager, you're staying in the wrong type of place.  At worst you'll have to go to the OVIR office - take your girlfriend and a book!

The Russian visa application form is at least twice as long as the Ukrainian visa application form. For example the Russian form asks you stupid questions like who is your previous previous employer and whether you had ever joined any clubs/organisations etc. It's almost like they are trying to discourage tourist from coming to Russia by making the visa application form a P.I.T.A.

You're kidding, right?  I realise that things may have changed, and the application form here is now electronic (and unreachable unless you start the process for real), but the form which I filled in for Russia was less than one page long, and certainly didn't include questions like those you've quoted.  Compare that with the visa application for New Zealand, which is 12 pages long (even if not all of them apply to tourist visas).

And what do your own wives and girlfriends think about the Visa process to visit you in Australia? How easy was that for them?
The Russian policy is one of reciprocation. They will make the visa process easy for people from one country if that same country makes it easy for Russians to visit them.

It's a lot easier to get a visa for Russia than for New Zealand.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 31, 2014, 10:08:04 AM
Deccie wrote:
'And I guess US sponsored terrorism is wanted eh?'

OK. What specifically are you referring to and how does it relate to what's happening in Ukraine? It's a weak argument to say that a Russian mercenary in Ukraine is equal to an American mercenary in some other part of the world or some other period in time. That's silly. It's like saying China is now selling us items with poisonous ingredients, and that's not so bad because the USA once allowed stores to sell paint with toxic lead. That kind of thinking is impractical and absurd. US sponsored terrorism should be exposed and stopped. I agree. Do you agree that Russian sponsored terrorism in eastern Ukraine should be exposed and stopped? It now looks like blood is on Putin's hands. The guy is stupid and immature, because he has turned most Ukrainians against him, and most of the world against him. How does that help anyone? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 31, 2014, 10:34:14 AM
Boycott Exxon and British Petroleum!

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/news/oil-giants-exxonmobil-and-bp-defy-white-house-extend-partnership-with-russia-30311367.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on June 13, 2014, 03:01:08 PM
m&ms too!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on July 19, 2014, 01:39:47 AM
The editor was not able to put up with more lies.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/zhurnalistka-russia-today-zvilnilasya-cherez-brehnyu-pro-katastrofu-boeing-359778.html


The editor was not able to put up with more lies. Russia Today Firs Sarah resigned from Russia Today. Journalist Kremlin TV channel Russia Today Sarah Firs resigned in protest against lies in the coverage of the destruction by terrorists of the Boeing 777 in the Donetsk region. "It was obvious misinformation 's the ugliest" - commented Firs plot its former channel, that blame for the tragedy in Ukraine, reports The Guardian . Read more: Russia closed for flying Boeing 777 long before his fall - NYT A journalist named horrific act tragedy in order to use propaganda when there are families who lost their loved ones and expect objective information. "I have always fought against arguments that portray Russia Today network of evil, but as woke up and realized it was just wrong," - said the Firs. "It was a complete disregard for the facts. We showed only those witnesses who openly accused the Ukrainian government (involvement in the accident)," - added the journalist commenting BuzzFeed their release from the channel. See also: Ukrainian government will place free for all families of the dead on the "Boeing 777" Previously, the agency Bloomberg reported that Russian television continues to talk about all versions of Boeing 777 accident, but one of the most probable - that he was hit by pro fighters with weapons obtained from.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/zhurnalistka-russia-today-zvilnilasya-cherez-brehnyu-pro-katastrofu-boeing-359778.html

After his loud release from the Kremlin channel Russia Today , a British correspondent Sarah Fort revealed details of Russian propaganda machine. Specifically, in an interview with Press Gazette she said, stepping into the newsroom, she saw being fake accounts in social networks in which all the blame for the disaster Malaysian "Boeing" 777 in the skies over the Donbas relies on the Ukrainian side. On Friday, July 18 Fort applied for exemption to protest against the policy on TV coverage of the situation in Ukraine, including news about the crash Boeing 777. Read more: How Russia and terrorists lied about the crash "Boeing" In her Twitter, she described the principles of the TV channel coverage of the situation in Ukraine: "The first principle of working style RT: no matter what happens - this is always the fault of Ukraine.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/rosiyskih-zhurnalistiv-zmushuyut-brehati-v-socmerezhah-pro-katastrofu-boyinga-359782.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on July 19, 2014, 08:25:26 PM
I don't know if this video has been posted yet in one of the forums.
It's important for the world and Russian citizens to see this:

http://youtu.be/YgdqdklrqDA
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on July 19, 2014, 09:27:11 PM
Didn't another RT correspondent resign earlier this year, also in protest of the lies they were supposed to broadcast?

And in the video PhotoGuy posted : 

OK, what is the gist of what is being said by the Russian language speakers.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on July 19, 2014, 09:35:45 PM
Didn't another RT correspondent resign earlier this year, also in protest of the lies they were supposed to broadcast?

And in the video PhotoGuy posted : 

OK, what is the gist of what is being said by the Russian language speakers.

the video is of the intercepted phone calls between the terrorists and the Russian military officers.  This version has Russian subtitles.  I posted earleir the version with English translation.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on July 19, 2014, 10:58:50 PM
Video for English speakers:

http://youtu.be/0JPJKMIYFsk
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on July 20, 2014, 01:53:22 AM
Didn't another RT correspondent resign earlier this year, also in protest of the lies they were supposed to broadcast?

Yep, strange enough it happens with every incident. Perhaps the FSB needs to improve their screening.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on July 20, 2014, 11:19:44 AM
It has been reported that the Russian terrorists first posted jubilation on a FaceBook or youtube video about shooting down the plane.

And then later, when they realized it was a civilian plane, they  removed the video.

But, in my experience, you can never really get totally rid of anything that has been posted on the Internet.  He!! it is close to impossible to even get anything completely removed from your own computer, aside from a complete format.

So, I say these first videos can be retrieved somewhere on the Internet.  Certainly not by me, and probably not by anyone here. 

However, be sure that the hosting websites can retrieve the videos; and they probably already have. 

But when this retrieval will be made public is the unknown.

Anyone have an update on this?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gylden on July 20, 2014, 12:03:15 PM
I gotta say, I am very impressed with those villagers in eastern Ukraine. I now understand why Putin wants to have close ties to them.
Durring this conflict they have mannaged to build entire missile systems, which have been demonstated to function and have already started to export them to Russia!!
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on July 20, 2014, 12:31:50 PM
I gotta say, I am very impressed with those villagers in eastern Ukraine. I now understand why Putin wants to have close ties to them.
Durring this conflict they have mannaged to build entire missile systems, which have been demonstated to function and have already started to export them to Russia!!

LMAO    ;D    That's a good one.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 20, 2014, 01:36:38 PM
Russian speakers were never in any danger in Crimea or other parts of Ukraine. 

They are hassled.  This is a large part of the problem. 'Ukrainian' Ukrainians want to be disengaged from Russia...Russian Ukrainians don't. They want to retain their language and ideals.

ie.
(http://static1.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1868829.1405522771%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/531661226.jpg)


http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/blond-beauty-patrols-eastern-ukraine-pro-russia-rebels-tensions-mount-article-1.1868831
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on July 20, 2014, 01:44:39 PM
(http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/iblock/4c5/5415-10-medved_c.jpg)

I would surmise that the future of the Moscow Times is in doubt.  While it is an English language publication, this type of opinion does not appear to be tolerated in the 'new' information dissemination laws.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russians-will-suffer-in-putin-s-new-cold-war/503782.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 20, 2014, 02:21:44 PM
Quote
They are hassled.  This is a large part of the problem. 'Ukrainian' Ukrainians want to be disengaged from Russia...Russian Ukrainians don't. They want to retain their language and ideals.


For two decades, this ethnic minority population has been allowed to speak their language.  They elect members to the Rada.  They can send their children to Russian language schools.  So where, exactly, is the hassle?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on July 20, 2014, 04:18:25 PM

For two decades, this ethnic minority population has been allowed to speak their language.  They elect members to the Rada.  They can send their children to Russian language schools.  So where, exactly, is the hassle?
agree100%
not only that but in crimea there where more russian language schools than ukrainian

in the east of ukraine there never has been any conflict over ethnicity , language etc
that is russian propoganda bs

most people living in this area are dual linguists in russian and ukrainian

if you talk to any of them or have family there you will hear quite plainly language everday language use was never an issue

it has now possibly become one , purely by putins driving of the propoganda and disinformation in the last 8 months or so
SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 20, 2014, 07:38:52 PM

For two decades, this ethnic minority population has been allowed to speak their language.  They elect members to the Rada.  They can send their children to Russian language schools.  So where, exactly, is the hassle?

Ethnic minority?
'Allowed'? Allowed to speak...... ::)
I believe that is what I am talking about.
The Ukrainian Parliament?
Must have missed the fist fights the last couple of years.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 20, 2014, 07:54:38 PM
Quote
Ethnic minority?

Yup.   Ethnic Russians are less than 20% of Ukraine's population, ergo, they are a minority. 
Quote
'Allowed'? Allowed to speak..

Do you have any examples of regions of Russian being restricted from Russian schooling, being prohibited from speaking Russian, reading Russian language, accessing Russian media?  You do know that Ukrainian schools are already being closed for the new school year in Crimea, do you not? 


So, exactly how were Russians "oppressed" in Ukraine?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 20, 2014, 07:56:55 PM
Crimea is mostly Russian. Been there and discussed months ago so naturally there is more Russian language schools.
It is mostly in the western side of Ukraine that refuse to use the Russian language.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 20, 2014, 08:01:22 PM

There are Russian language schools across Ukraine, wherever there is demand.

As for Western Ukraine, why should they be forced to use a language which is not their ethnic tongue?  Still, if you go to L'viv and speak Russian, the locals will answer in Russian.


You do know, I assume, that there were policies of Russification in Ukraine, where Ukrainian language was viewed as secondary and non important, do you not?  There were many things that were published only in Russian.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 20, 2014, 09:30:55 PM
It was called The Soviet Union. Russian was the primary Language.
And let's just go full circle again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on July 20, 2014, 09:40:35 PM

There's been talk about the RT anchor quitting on the air. In the video she is explaining why she quit. Tired of the propaganda.



http://video.foxnews.com/v/3686595391001/russian-tv-anchor-quits-while-on-air/#sp=show-clips (http://video.foxnews.com/v/3686595391001/russian-tv-anchor-quits-while-on-air/#sp=show-clips)

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 20, 2014, 10:03:41 PM
It was called The Soviet Union. Russian was the primary Language.
And let's just go full circle again.

It was called the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.  Theoretically, each republic was equal.

Russification went far beyond use of Russian language as the primary language of the USSR.  The intent was to obliterate Ukrainian as the primary language of its native speakers.  This is why Ukrainian dissidents were jailed.  One, Ivan Dziuba, wrote a book about the official policy titled Internationalism or Russification? Many Ukrainian writers, poets, and journalists were sent to gulags for wanting to write in Ukrainian.  The last political prisoner in the USSR to die in a gulag was a Ukrainian poet, Vasyl Stus, who died on September 4, 1985, at Perm-36.

In Western Ukraine, when the Bolsheviks came, they closed all the churches.  Every school, in every village, had a Russian teacher.  There perhaps was no math teacher, or physics teacher, but even a "zadrepane selo" had a Russian teacher.  The best jobs were reserved for the "tried, tested and true" commies from Central/Eastern Ukraine, or Russia.  Singing the wrong (Ukrainian) song could get you, even in Brezhnev's time, a prison sentence of 2 years or more.  So, please don't assume that Ukrainians who, oppressed and forbidden to speak, or publish, in their language are doing something horrific in wanting to know and live their language and their culture in their country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on July 21, 2014, 08:22:21 AM
Apart from that Ukrainian and Russian are more like dialects as completely separate languages, I wonder why people who expect the world to speak English are surprised about the dominating country of the Soviet Union trying it make it language uniform for all republics.
Standard Dutch and Flemish street language are just as different as Ukrainian and Russian, yet are officially the same language. The Limburg dialect, which is not recognized as language, is between Dutch and German, and while spoken (with local varieties) in a wide area nobody speaks of oppression.
On the other hand the Frysk is officially recognized, though once again rather close.

Language is nothing but a political means to divide instead of unite.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 08:32:28 AM
They are dialects the way that Dutch and German are dialects to one another.

The issue is not that Russian was a uniform language for all republics.  It is that Ukrainian culture and language was deliberately suppressed.  There was an attempt to erase it, gradually, from history.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2014, 08:55:58 AM
(http://static1.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1868829.1405522771%21/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/article_970/531661226.jpg)


She is one #!#! cute *terrorist*. Hell, she can terrorize me anytime she wants, man IMO.

If she isn't busy shooting down planes, that is... :P Evil b@stard!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 21, 2014, 09:13:14 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Language

Quote
Effective in August 2012, a new law on regional languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislation_on_languages_in_Ukraine) entitles any local language spoken by at least a 10% minority be declared official within that area.[266] Russian was within weeks declared as a regional language in several southern and eastern oblasts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oblasts_of_Ukraine) (provinces) and cities.[267] Russian can now be used in these cities'/oblasts' administrative office work and documents.[268][269] On 23 February 2014, following the 2014 Ukrainian revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Ukrainian_revolution), the Ukrainian Parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Parliament) voted to repeal the law on regional languages, making Ukrainian the sole state language at all levels; however, this vote was vetoed by acting President Turchynov (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oleksandr_Turchynov) on March 2.[270][271]

The 'Russian can now be used in these cities'/oblasts' administrative office work and documents' part was certainly  not active when my wife sold her property and drew up real estate papers last year.
 Was originally in Russian had to be transcribed  into Ukrainian and then translated into English for tax accounting...A hassle.

[Someone changed my word hassled to oppressed earlier in the thread yesterday.]
What was the motive there?

 Anyway............Had she waited till now..I would not permit her to fly there.

A post on another forum...
Laloosh (http://polyglotclub.com/member/Laloosh)   Hello! I was born and grew up in Ukraine, but I don't consider Ukrainian as my mother tongue, Russian is my native language, and I'll explain why. Actually Ukraine can be divided into two parts: Eastern and Western. The eastern part, including Crimea speaks Russian, maybe because it is closer to Russia, I don't know, it is just how it is. And the Western part speaks only Ukrainian. Districts that are close to Poland have some kind of language mixture (Ukrainian + Polish + Chezh). That part is quite nationalistic. They don't really like Russian people. And I heard so many stories how Russians were treated badly in that part of Ukraine. In the capital of Ukraine people speak both Russian and Ukrainian.   
http://polyglotclub.com/language/ukrainian/post/65



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 09:18:20 AM
So?  In what language would a real estate transaction in the U.S. occur? 


Odesa is no longer a part of the USSR.  Moscow is no longer its capital.  Ukrainian is the official language of the Ukraine.


I don't think anyone changed your post.  Were it revised, there would be a note that Anonmod edited your post.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on July 21, 2014, 09:19:42 AM
Ethnic minority?
'Allowed'? Allowed to speak...... ::)
I believe that is what I am talking about.
The Ukrainian Parliament?
Must have missed the fist fights the last couple of years.


Quick question.


In what language are the US Congress sessions held?
I bet it is NOT in Spanish.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 21, 2014, 12:27:48 PM
...In what language are the US Congress sessions held?
I bet it is NOT in Spanish.

From the 'Did you know Department'...

For nearly 50 years, there was a State (don't remember which) that actually made it a 'law' establishing *American* as the official language of the State. LOL.

It was eventually amended because the schools/teachers kept teaching *English* in their classes...

 ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on July 21, 2014, 12:34:40 PM
From the 'Did you know Department'...

For nearly 50 years, there was a State (don't remember which) that actually made it a 'law' establishing *American* as the official language of the State. LOL.

It was eventually amended because the schools/teachers kept teaching *English* in their classes...

 ;D


LMFAO
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 21, 2014, 05:11:16 PM



So, exactly how were Russians "oppressed" in Ukraine?

OK there was the word oppressed in quotes when no one had used the word.

 

Quote
If you are going to Ukraine, learn a few phrases in Ukrainian.  If you, as a foreigner, speak Russian only, in many parts of Ukraine, you will  offend the locals.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9695.msg187615#msg187615 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9695.msg187615#msg187615)


Boethius..if my wife tells me that she was hassled regarding her speaking in Russian than I will take her word for it.

I can't find anywhere that you would be qualified to know otherwise
 
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 05:21:04 PM

Re this -


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9695.msg187615#msg187615 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=9695.msg187615#msg187615)

I have been on the streets of Kyiv, where one will hear, in order, surzhik, Ukrainian, and Russian.

I have been on the streets of Vinnitsya, where one will hear, in order, surzhik and Ukrainian.

I have been on the streets of Chernivtsi where one will hear, in order, Ukrainian, surzhik and what I assume is Romanian.

I have been on the streets of L'viv, where one will hear, in order, Ukrainian and surzhik.

I have been on the streets of Ternopil, where one will hear, in order, Ukrainian and surzhik.

I have been on the streets of Ivano Frankivsk, where one will generally hear Ukrainian, and the odd Russian word thrown in.


In Kyiv and L'viv, I have seen Russian tourists, who had no issues with locals. 


In 2009, in Western Ukraine, if a foreigner used Russian phrases yes, it offended the locals.  They have become more cosmopolitan since then, in my experience.   They don't even balk at my husband's "moskal" surname.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on July 21, 2014, 05:30:00 PM
I've been to both Russia and Ukraine, yet never ever been discriminated. So I conclude these countries are safe for us pink People, haha
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 05:33:03 PM
Do you mean censorship?  Where is the censorship?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 21, 2014, 06:10:02 PM
 
...in Western Ukraine



Didn't say you weren't qualified about Ukraine.

Just didn't see how you would know what had happened when my wife was there.

In western Ukraine, the younger generation was taught Ukrainian as their native language.

With those from the Soviet days, it is different.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 07:17:04 PM
Did I ever suggest I knew what happened to your wife? 


Did I mention her at all in any of my posts?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on July 21, 2014, 07:50:00 PM
From the 'Did you know Department'...

For nearly 50 years, there was a State (don't remember which) that actually made it a 'law' establishing *American* as the official language of the State. LOL.

It was eventually amended because the schools/teachers kept teaching *English* in their classes...

 ;D

So nobody in the other states could understand them?  :devil:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on July 21, 2014, 08:07:33 PM
The news networks in America are expressing dismay about the inaccuracies reported by Russian news. 

They mentioned the story about the woman who told how the pro-Ukranian groups crucified a young child, and how it was later disproven.    They were dismayed that the Russian news did not publish a retraction much less an apology. 

Regarding MH17, there are the usual conspiracy stories such as "it was shot down by a Ukrainian jet fighter thinking it was Putin's plane," yet today I heard the most preposterous story.  A pro-Russian separatist said MH-17 was carrying corpses, not live passengers.

The New Republic had a story Sunday about the inaccuracies.   http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

They make the point that Putin is a prisoner of his own propaganda.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on July 21, 2014, 08:27:09 PM
The news networks in America are expressing dismay about the inaccuracies reported by Russian news. 

They mentioned the story about the woman who told how the pro-Ukranian groups crucified a young child, and how it was later disproven.    They were dismayed that the Russian news did not publish a retraction much less an apology. 

Regarding MH17, there are the usual conspiracy stories such as "it was shot down by a Ukrainian jet fighter thinking it was Putin's plane," yet today I heard the most preposterous story.  A pro-Russian separatist said MH-17 was carrying corpses, not live passengers.

The New Republic had a story Sunday about the inaccuracies.   http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

They make the point that Putin is a prisoner of his own propaganda.

Very well written article.  It all seems so logical  Fortunately for the non-Russian world we are not dependent on state run media and can view many sources of news and presentation of evidence.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on July 21, 2014, 08:32:11 PM
The news networks in America are expressing dismay about the inaccuracies reported by Russian news. 

They mentioned the story about the woman who told how the pro-Ukranian groups crucified a young child, and how it was later disproven.    They were dismayed that the Russian news did not publish a retraction much less an apology. 

Regarding MH17, there are the usual conspiracy stories such as "it was shot down by a Ukrainian jet fighter thinking it was Putin's plane," yet today I heard the most preposterous story.  A pro-Russian separatist said MH-17 was carrying corpses, not live passengers.

The New Republic had a story Sunday about the inaccuracies.   http://www.newrepublic.com/node/118782

They make the point that Putin is a prisoner of his own propaganda.

Gator,

Sure, there are false stories in Russia, but do you really think you are living in a country of the free and ithe ndispensible, the exceptional People as an American? You really think you have a special kind of stuff in Your genes, or something? Arrogance always Catch up With these kinds of ideas, and then the Europeans aren't such museum guys after
all, or what?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 08:39:51 PM
No matter what you will say about America, the U.S. media is not controlled by the American government.  Other than PBS/NPR, I can't think of any American media outlet owned by the U.S. government, and in the case of PBS/NPR, they are quite left, far more than either US political party.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on July 21, 2014, 09:22:28 PM
  A pro-Russian separatist said MH-17 was carrying corpses, not live passengers.




Cool story bro. If they could find just one living soul after falling 33,000 ft, it would prove that guy wrong. What are those rebels drinking? Just think, if the rebels succeed in taking east Ukraine, they would be in charge of the government.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on July 21, 2014, 09:33:50 PM
No matter what you will say about America, the U.S. media is not controlled by the American government.  Other than PBS/NPR, I can't think of any American media outlet owned by the U.S. government, and in the case of PBS/NPR, they are quite left, far more than either US political party.

I'll give 'em that. They run the propaganda machine much more smoothly that in Russia. It's not just the US. Seems that Foreign policy is off-topic for a balanced view in Europe too. So the consumer in Europe and USA ends up With the same, the reports that the government wants.  The journalists might as well hide their professions as they are not journalists, but media whores. And they know it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 21, 2014, 09:56:50 PM
Is Seymour Hersh, who broke the My Lai and Abu Ghraib scandals, a media whore? 


The New York Times broke the story on NSA Surveillance.


An American journalist also broke the Edward Snowden NSA scandal.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on July 21, 2014, 10:43:43 PM
Is Seymour Hersh, who broke the My Lai and Abu Ghraib scandals, a media whore? 


The New York Times broke the story on NSA Surveillance.


An American journalist also broke the Edward Snowden NSA scandal.

What about Watergate?  Surely that's the biggest of them all!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 22, 2014, 12:12:21 AM
Woodward went corporate.  Great access to power, interesting books, but, meh.


Bernstein didn't.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on July 22, 2014, 05:54:45 AM

The American President is the most criticized person on the planet besides our country. Our media doesn't answer to the government.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War...France doesn't care
Post by: fathertime on July 22, 2014, 08:41:06 AM
Hot off the press France is still selling the warships to Russia.   I thought there was a chance they wouldn't as a way to get out of that enormous bank fine the US levied on the last week.  Apparently many European nations don't have very strong negative feelings about what Russia has helped foment and aren't going to let US financial pressures sway them.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 22, 2014, 09:59:13 AM

From the 'Did you know Department'...

For nearly 50 years, there was a State (don't remember which) that actually made it a 'law' establishing *American* as the official language of the State. LOL.

It was eventually amended because the schools/teachers kept teaching *English* in their classes...

 ;D
So nobody in the other states could understand them?  >:D

It seems like a joke but it actually is true. It was gnawing at me last night but just couldn't remember which State it was, so I looked. It was Illinois.

In 1923, as a show of protest against the Brits for dragging their feet in giving Ireland their independence, they made *American* as the official language of the State. It was *illegal* to speak English (LOL).

Of course, the learning institutions had to keep on teaching *English* to their students so eventually (1969), and silently, they amended the law and reverted back to making English as their official language.

 :P
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on July 22, 2014, 05:34:15 PM
So nobody in the other states could understand them?  >:D


It seems like a joke but it actually is true.

I never doubted you for a moment!  The USA is the happy home of some nearly all of the absolute weirdest legislation ever created.

It was gnawing at me last night but just couldn't remember which State it was, so I looked. It was Illinois.

In 1923, as a show of protest against the Brits for dragging their feet in giving Ireland their independence, they made *American* as the official language of the State. It was *illegal* to speak English (LOL).

Of course, the learning institutions had to keep on teaching *English* to their students so eventually (1969), and silently, they amended the law and reverted back to making English as their official language.

 :P

Of course, as there are several hundred "American" languages (or dialects), that could have had a somewhat fraught ending if people had taken them literally.  By 1969, though, I wonder what percentage of Illinois residents knew that this law was on the books?  0.000001%?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 23, 2014, 12:13:55 PM
CNN had a panel of *experts* convened to discussed the available *evidence* being presented so far to further accuse Russian of  complicity in the downing of MH17. The one particular one that everyone found to be hilarious was the video between a commander and his field personnel's intercepted conversation about searching and retrieving the black boxes..



(http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/ag162/matteo251/WinkWink_zpsdc72fb2e.png) (http://s1368.photobucket.com/user/matteo251/media/WinkWink_zpsdc72fb2e.png.html)


It was asked; "Doesn't it seem strange to you how this transcript of supposed intercepted call is making sure that *someone really high up* (Moscow) had to be inscribed?"

::::Laughter:::

Response: Yeah. Maybe had they added a *wink wink* emoticon after the word 'Moscow', the world would have no doubt!"

 :ROFL:   
   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gylden on July 23, 2014, 12:49:50 PM
The real strategy is to wait until all of the Russian military has retired and moved to Ukraine and then BAM!!
Full scale invasion of Russia!
 
 ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 23, 2014, 03:13:52 PM
I think Lee Ann McAdoo is cute!!!

I like the T-Rex sighting in Texas...LMAO! It's true! It's on Youtube!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFDjVRPMsu4
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 23, 2014, 04:21:51 PM
The material in the link below is what cutie pie Lee Ann McAdoo was referring to.

http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence/ (http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence/)

While I will remain objective about this tragic event until the truth surfaces up, I contend, if the Russians are releasing satellite images as evidence, why are we (US) content on relying to Kiev's YOUTUBE videos and cartoon rendering?

Please USA, my stars and stripes, show us the money!

Lee Ann McAdoo, cute as she is, is still not as cute as CNN's Erin Burnett. GGrrrrr.....  :P

BTW - I forgot to add the notation: The release of the Russian information coincided with the US Intelligence (questionably vague) announcement that the downing of MH17 have 'no direct link to' Russia yesterday....
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: tfcrew on July 23, 2014, 07:34:24 PM
http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence/ (http://mashable.com/2014/07/22/russia-mh17-plane-evidence/)

Quote
Russian counterpoint #1: Why did MH17 deviate its route?

immaterial

Quote
Russian counterpoint #2: Missile launchers near Donetsk According to the Russian Ministry of Defense's data, Ukraine's military had three or four Buk-M1 missile launchers based near the embattled eastern city of Donetsk on the day the plane was downed.

So, the Ukrainians are shooting down their own planes. Well that's rich!

 

Quote
Russian counterpoint #3: Ukrainian radar activity Ukrainian radar activity in the days leading up to the crash gradually increased in the nearby area, according to Russian officials.

If the Russians are so un-involved, how would they know so much about it?

Quote
Russian counterpoint #4:
 There were two other civilian flights in the area around the time the plane was shot out of the sky: a flight from Copenhagen to Singapore and a flight from Paris to Taipei.

Maybe they deviated their course like the Dutch plane did? Bad weather maybe?

Quote
Russian counterpoint #5: Video of the Buk missile system

Takes us back to point #2...the Ukrainians are cruising the separatist area with half a missile system to shoot down who?

Quote
Russian counterpoint #6: U.S. satellite imagery U.S. officials have said they possess satellite images proving the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a missile launched from a specific location.
So where are the images? And was there a satellite overhead at the precise time the airliner was downed?

There's always somebody watching someone else 8)

Lee Ann huh?
Info war or info whore?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 23, 2014, 07:40:07 PM
The Russians haven't released any of their results either.  As for the billboard in Ukrainian controlled territory, that has been debunked.


http://twitter.com/AricToler/status/491308413557538816/photo/1 (http://twitter.com/AricToler/status/491308413557538816/photo/1)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 23, 2014, 10:04:19 PM
There was a U.S. briefing today in which satellite images were released.  The U.S. stated the attack having been carried out by Ukraine is "not a plausible scenario".


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/us-discloses-intelligence-on-downing-of-malaysian-jet/2014/07/22/b178fe58-11e1-11e4-98ee-daea85133bc9_story.html?tid=pm_world_pop
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on July 24, 2014, 03:18:53 PM
It seems like a joke but it actually is true. It was gnawing at me last night but just couldn't remember which State it was, so I looked. It was Illinois.

In 1923, as a show of protest against the Brits for dragging their feet in giving Ireland their independence, they made *American* as the official language of the State. It was *illegal* to speak English (LOL).

Of course, the learning institutions had to keep on teaching *English* to their students so eventually (1969), and silently, they amended the law and reverted back to making English as their official language.

This documentary is being made available to anyone who might have wondered what life was like in Illinois when the language law was still in effect (pre-1969) and *American* was then the State's official language.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd7FixvoKBw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dd7FixvoKBw)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on July 30, 2014, 11:02:22 AM
Speaking of propaganda, why do separatists (and Moscow) characterize the new government in Kiev as being 'fascist'?? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 30, 2014, 11:08:32 AM
Because of the Svoboda members of the Rada and cabinet.  However, Svoboda had the exact same number of seats in the Rada when the Party of Regions controlled it as well, and have never been a majority party.  I believe they hold six seats.


Because of their agitation at Euromaidan, Svoboda deputies were awarded cabinet posts.  However, some of those have already been vacated.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on July 30, 2014, 02:32:49 PM
Speaking of propaganda, why do separatists (and Moscow) characterize the new government in Kiev as being 'fascist'??


Because the term was ingrained in their subconscious as being the equivalent of a man eating a child raw. So once you create enough hysteria, reasoning flies out the window.


I take it you never took politics 101.


Edit: Just like socialist in this country. The exact same thing.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on July 30, 2014, 02:47:25 PM
Speaking of propaganda, why do separatists (and Moscow) characterize the new government in Kiev as being 'fascist'??


For the same reason they used Fascist imagery to describe Georgia in 2008. It portrays the Russian forces as liberators, the opponents as evil scum and thus it falls into the national narrative of the Great Patriotic War...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on July 30, 2014, 02:50:12 PM

For the same reason they used Fascist imagery to describe Georgia in 2008. It portrays the Russian forces as liberators, the opponents as evil scum and thus it falls into the national narrative of the Great Patriotic War...


Which is exactly what I said.  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 01, 2014, 04:36:05 PM
This is a great video that refutes a lot of the Russian propaganda about Ukraine, including the bogus charge of 'fascism'.
(click on 'CC' for subtitles in English):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfFhnqw0sE8
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 01, 2014, 04:55:15 PM
An important point:
In order to discern the truth, you have to look at a lot of different news sources. Currently I am re-watching most of Vice news' video reports with Simon Ostrovsky. Through the entire series, he interviews separatists, and those who oppose them. The series begins with Crimea.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o5zqF6WJR8zuC7Uwyv76h7R (http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLw613M86o5o5zqF6WJR8zuC7Uwyv76h7R)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 01, 2014, 05:13:09 PM
This is a great video that refutes a lot of the Russian propaganda about Ukraine, including the bogus charge of 'fascism'.
(click on 'CC' for subtitles in English):



 :ROFL:

This is what you have to implicate *Russians* aiding the rebels in Ukraine? Retired soldiers and obviously out-of-shape volunteers?

Now, I ask, how is this any different than US & European citizens flying to Iraq and Syria to join the militants that includes Al Qaeda and ISIS ( that the US armed) trying to topple those respective governments?

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-foreign-fighters-20140720-story.html#page=1 (http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-foreign-fighters-20140720-story.html#page=1)

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/opinion/bergen-american-al-qaeda-suicide-bomber-syria/ (http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/31/opinion/bergen-american-al-qaeda-suicide-bomber-syria/)

The world *we created* is very sick but yet, we continue to spread democracy unto our world one nation at a time. Our way!

Quote
...Two U.S. citizens have been arrested on terrorism-related charges since April before boarding flights to Turkey, suspected of being on their way to help the militants. One is said to have paid his way with his federal tax refund. In May, a Florida man became a suicide bomber in northern Syria....

 :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on August 01, 2014, 05:19:43 PM

Which is exactly what I said.  ;D


I didn't disagree with you either  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 01, 2014, 08:17:23 PM
:ROFL:

This is what you have to implicate *Russians* aiding the rebels in Ukraine? Retired soldiers and obviously out-of-shape volunteers?


I posted this video yesterday or the day before.


A lot of those "retired soldiers" and "out of shape volunteers" are well trained, having fought the Chechen wars. 


Strelkov retired last year, allegedly, and spent a decade fighting for Russia before that. 


The point is that the separatist movement in Donbas is not a native movement.  Where do you think the funds and equipment come from?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 01, 2014, 10:35:32 PM

I posted this video yesterday or the day before.


A lot of those "retired soldiers" and "out of shape volunteers" are well trained, having fought the Chechen wars. 


Strelkov retired last year, allegedly, and spent a decade fighting for Russia before that....

Which, FWIW, doesn't mean the Russian government is sending them there. Anymore than you can say US mercenary force in Ukraine implicates the US government of sending them in Ukraine Boethius.


  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK9gMhRZA2U

BILD and Der Spiegel reported the matter, as did a French photographer Jerome Sessini (http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=MAGO31_10_VForm&ERID=2K1HRGTPI3G), which was verified by Paris Match. That's in addition to BBC's report I posted here about that German sniper working in Ukraine. That doesn't mean the German government can be implicated of sending troops in Ukraine. Or Ilyo Kolomoski's personal army consisting of Romanian, Polish, Albanian military advisers and troops would implicate those countries into sending soldiers to Ukraine.

Either hired guns or volunteers, doesn't necessarily mean the US nor Russia or anyone else for that matter is automatically culpable for what the video suggests, LOL.

Quote
...The point is that the separatist movement in Donbas is not a native movement.  Where do you think the funds and equipment come from?...

LOL...and this is different with the pro-Kiev forces exactly how?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on August 01, 2014, 10:51:59 PM
When the Russian state (directly or through indirect channels) fund the mercenaries, then that certainly implicates Russia. In one intercepted call, the self-proclaimed prime minister complains that the cash he brought with him from Russia to fund their efforts had almost run out and that he needed more. The Russian handler told him not to worry, that they would get money to them through their usual channels...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 01, 2014, 10:54:04 PM
When the Russian state (directly or through indirect channels) fund the mercenaries, then that certainly implicates Russia. In one intercepted call, the self-proclaimed prime minister complains that the cash he brought with him from Russia to fund their efforts had almost run out and that he needed more. The Russian handler told him not to worry, that they would get money to them through their usual channels...

Great! Now we're getting somewhere. Do you know how many millions the US have funded Kiev for this conflict? Guess...

Again, how is this any different from your allegations.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 01, 2014, 10:59:54 PM
Quote
...I support what the Ukrainians are trying to do. I can’t do much about it, except teach… Because of the semi-official position I work in, I can’t do much more. If it gets too dangerous out here in western Ukraine, I have to go home. If it gets too politically strenuous for the US, the State Department might order us to go home. I’m not impressed with John Kerry whining that Putin doesn’t respond to our super-civilized new world society. He is “stunned” that Mr Putin acted in the same old way that Russians have always reacted. By force. By making your enemies fear you. By taking action, not talking. I’m amazed that anyone with a clue really thinks that this 21st century is going to be much different than the 19th century. History shows us otherwise. Every Damned Time....

Read more: http://sofrep.com/33637/ukraine-american-spec-ops-veteran-on-the-ground-speaks/#ixzz39DCuPY00
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on August 01, 2014, 11:02:07 PM
Great! Now we're getting somewhere. Do you know how many millions the US have funded Kiev for this conflict? Guess...

Again, how is this any different from your allegations.

Quite different. The USA is going through open and transparent channels funding a legitimate state with a democratically elected president and a democratically elected legislative assembly.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 01, 2014, 11:06:37 PM
It's different because it fits nicely into your narrative. But reality is, it isn't.

Besides, this *transparency* thing you speak of needs some serious cleaning before you can even recognize what exactly is inside the box. LOL.

You guys really need to get out more often and stop watching CSI.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 02, 2014, 07:07:46 AM
Besides, this *transparency* thing you speak of needs some serious cleaning before you can even recognize what exactly is inside the box. LOL.

You guys really need to get out more often and stop watching CSI.



Just because you recently discovered America gives nations foreign aid to spread democracy doesn't mean everybody else was as clueless and in the dark. Transparency? This happened for decades. It's no secret. You need to get out more often and read the news and stop watching CSI.


Quite different. The USA is going through open and transparent channels funding a legitimate state with a democratically elected president and a democratically elected legislative assembly.


Misha is correct. There is also a difference between USA giving foreign aid to Israel to be free and live in a peaceful democracy and other nations giving Hamas financial aid to perform terrorist acts. GQ thinks both acts are equally evil.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on August 02, 2014, 07:12:04 AM
Quote
  There is also a difference between USA giving foreign aid to Israel to be free and live in a peaceful democracy and other nations giving Hamas financial aid to perform terrorist acts.
And what IS this "deifference"?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 02, 2014, 07:17:15 AM
Which, FWIW, doesn't mean the Russian government is sending them there. Anymore than you can say US mercenary force in Ukraine implicates the US government of sending them in Ukraine Boethius.


 
BILD and Der Spiegel reported the matter, as did a French photographer Jerome Sessini (http://www.magnumphotos.com/C.aspx?VP3=CMS3&VF=MAGO31_10_VForm&ERID=2K1HRGTPI3G), which was verified by Paris Match. That's in addition to BBC's report I posted here about that German sniper working in Ukraine. That doesn't mean the German government can be implicated of sending troops in Ukraine. Or Ilyo Kolomoski's personal army consisting of Romanian, Polish, Albanian military advisers and troops would implicate those countries into sending soldiers to Ukraine.

Either hired guns or volunteers, doesn't necessarily mean the US nor Russia or anyone else for that matter is automatically culpable for what the video suggests, LOL.

LOL...and this is different with the pro-Kiev forces exactly how?


I took a look at the linked video you provided.  It states that German sources reported Blackwater is in E. Ukraine.  I don't know if it is true or not, but if it is true, AND we are paying for it, it would be pretty bad and not 'transparent'. 


 This link is several months old, when this may have happened, and purportedly shows the 'Blackwater forces' getting chased by Russian Separatist supporters.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2576490/Are-Blackwater-active-Ukraine-Videos-spark-talk-U-S-mercenary-outfit-deployed-Donetsk.html)


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 02, 2014, 07:25:01 AM
And what IS this "deifference"?


Look at the results.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Drew on August 02, 2014, 08:38:40 AM
It is the Russian ethnic and Russian speaking persons in Eastern Ukraine who are the Nationalists and Fascists.

And many of them are Russian terrorists themselves or are supporting the Russian terrorists who are operating in Ukraine.

Those Russians and Russian sympathisers living around the world who give aid, support and cover for the Russian terrorists operating in Ukraine are the true Nationalists and Fascists.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 02, 2014, 10:44:37 AM
Quote
Which, FWIW, doesn't mean the Russian government is sending them there. Anymore than you can say US mercenary force in Ukraine implicates the US government of sending them in Ukraine Boethius.


I didn't say the video says the Russian government is sending forces to Ukraine.  Nor have I so stated.  The video does make a strong case, complete with statements from Russian nationals, that Russia is funding its proxy war.


As for the Der Spiegel/Blackwater, I tracked down the article when I first read that allegation.  The Der Spiegel article just refers to a report in Bild am Sonntag.  It is not an independent investigative piece.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on August 02, 2014, 01:48:58 PM
And what IS this "deifference"?


There is no difference Doll.  Billy is a hypocrite when it comes to the US.  He thinks Russia's influence is bad but has no problem with the US influencing other countries through Bribes Foreign Aid, Sanctions or funding regime changes all over the world. 


Look how the US broke Switzerland's privacy laws.  Of course, it must have been for the good of the Swiss otherwise the US wouldn't have done so.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 02, 2014, 01:54:17 PM

I didn't say the video says the Russian government is sending forces to Ukraine.  Nor have I so stated.  The video does make a strong case, complete with statements from Russian nationals, that Russia is funding its proxy war.

I didn't say you did Boethius. I didn't even commented on your post when you posted the same video in another thread. All I'm saying is, objectively speaking, if people volunteered to participate in any conflict it doesn't automatically implicate their government of sending troops anywhere unless they sanction it. I posted links of reports where thousands of European and American citizens joining the rebels in Syria, I'm sure you'd agree that it doesn't mean EU/US are sending fighters to fight the Syrian government. Right?

I posted a special op page above and that illustrate, at the least, that we do have commissioned special ops inside Ukraine at the behest of the US. I would *suspect*, considering the impotence of the Ukrainian army, that we have SO and advisers on the ground directing offensive strategies for the Ukranians. Because let's face it, the Ukrainian army at their current state will be overmatched by the Bloods or the Crips of LA, let alone an army like Russia.

It's a very dirty proxy war, Boethius. You know that. The greater powers call the shots and unfortunately the Ukrainians are the pawns in this war game.

Quote
As for the Der Spiegel/Blackwater, I tracked down the article when I first read that allegation.  The Der Spiegel article just refers to a report in Bild am Sonntag.  It is not an independent investigative piece.

That may well be Boe...but it doesn't diminished what they saw and what they reported. Matter of fact, I'd take that over youtube video as evidence any day. I know my government will definitely disagree with me, but just call me old school. Or is it Old skool?

Btw...if you like to  surf a bit, there's a whole of good info on WikiLeaks that would shine a little daylight into this entire mess...if you're curious.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 02, 2014, 02:04:59 PM

Just because you recently discovered America gives nations foreign aid to spread democracy doesn't mean everybody else was as clueless and in the dark. Transparency? This happened for decades. It's no secret. You need to get out more often and read the news and stop watching CSI....


 :ROFL:

This coming from a UkraineInvestigation subscriber!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 02, 2014, 02:17:14 PM
Misha and Muzh gave the most direct and honest replies:

Quote from: Photo Guy on July 30, 2014, 09:02:22 AM (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg372889#msg372889)<blockquote>'Speaking of propaganda, why do separatists (and Moscow) characterize the new government in Kiev as being 'fascist'?? '
</blockquote>


For the same reason they used Fascist imagery to describe Georgia in 2008. It portrays the Russian forces as liberators, the opponents as evil scum and thus it falls into the national narrative of the Great Patriotic War...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 02, 2014, 02:31:04 PM
When the USA or the EU annex foreign territory in the name of some ideology, it should be questioned, and challenged. I think the second war in Iraq was a stupid move by the USA. However, it's a very different situation when you have a leader like Putin, blatantly lying about his use of troops and weapons, while also stating that he yearns for the USSR and, while sharing his serious fantasy about establishing a New Russia in nearby countries. There's nothing comical about it. There's blood on his hands. He doesn't care about the local people in Ukraine, especially those who do not speak Russian. He has this blatant prejudice. His narrow-mindedness includes a complete disregard for creating an atmosphere of TRUST that is essential for economic prosperity. Turning his country into a rogue nation has consequences. Where will Russia be five or ten years from now? ...Fear and intimidation are the tools of a bully.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Manny on August 02, 2014, 02:41:42 PM
America gives nations foreign aid to spread democracy doesn't mean everybody else was as clueless and in the dark.

We are not clueless or in the dark. We know what spreading democracy American-style means.

(http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/post/auto-army-door-open-348200.jpeg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 02, 2014, 05:52:31 PM
We are not clueless or in the dark. We know what spreading democracy American-style means.

(http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/post/auto-army-door-open-348200.jpeg)


LMFAO


Said the man whose country decimated entire civilizations in the name of the Queen.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 04, 2014, 04:34:28 AM

The point is that the separatist movement in Donbas is not a native movement.  Where do you think the funds and equipment come from?
Do you believe all people in the Donbass region are living in poverty?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 04, 2014, 07:53:54 AM
We are not clueless or in the dark. We know what spreading democracy American-style means.

(http://img0.joyreactor.com/pics/post/auto-army-door-open-348200.jpeg)

Are you certain those soldiers did not have a search warrant?

BTW, how is democracy there today after the interventionists left?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 04, 2014, 08:20:06 AM
Do you believe all people in the Donbass region are living in poverty?

Just the opposite, Shadow.  Where do you think the funds came to kick the rebels out of Mariupol?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 04, 2014, 11:53:22 AM
Speaking of Akhmetov, where is he now? What is he saying during the seige of Donetsk?
The separatists are both locals and Russians from Russia. It looks to me like most of them are motivated by propaganda from Moscow. Imagine dying, to fight an imagined monster (Poroshenko)? Very sad.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 04, 2014, 11:57:23 AM
One line of propaganda that has appeared in Moscow's media, ever since Euromaidan, is the idea that life in the USA and the EU is horrible, dangerous, and scary. Current surveys in Russia show us that Russians have a low opinion of the EU and the USA.
But, Russians should consider these facts:

Дочь Сталина - десятилетия жила и умерла в США.
 - Сын Хрущева - гражданин США.
 - Где дочери Путина? В России их не видно.
 - Депутат Пехтин. С сыном в США.
 - Министр транспорта Московской области - Кацыва. С сыном в США.
 - Дети депутата Железняка - живут в Швейцарии.
 - Дети Астахова. Один во Франции, другой в Англии.
 - Дети и внуки "главного патриота России" главы РЖД Владимира Якунина живут за пределами страны - в Англии и Швейцарии.
 - Дочка министра иностранных дел Сергея Лаврова Екатерина живет и учится в США.
 - Сын - вице-спикера госдумы А.Жукова долго жил и учился в Лондоне.
 - Дочь вице-спикера гос.думы Сергея Анденко учится и живёт в Германии.
 - Старший сын вице-премьера Дмитрия Козака - Алексей живет за границей и занимается строительным бизнесом.
 - Младший брат Алексея Козака, Александр, работает в Credit Suisse
 - Старший сын депутата Ремезкова, Степан, недавно закончил милитер-колледж Вэлли Фордж в Пенсильвании (год обучения стоит 1 млн 295 761 руб.).
 Его младшая дочь живёт в Вене, где занимается гимнастикой. Маша Ремезкова представляла сборную Австрии(!!!) на детских соревнованиях в Любляне.
 - Дочь депутата В. Фетисова - Анастасия, выросла и выучилась в США.Писать и читать по-русски Настя так и не научилась.
 - Дочь Светланы Нестеровой, депутата гос.думы от фракции «Единая Россия»- живет в Англии.
 - У главного борца за "традиционные православные ценности" Е. Мизулиной сын Николай учился в Оксфорде, получил диплом и переехал жить на постоянной основе в толерантную Бельгию, где разрешены однополые браки.
 - Дочь депутата Воронцова Анна проживает в Италии. Туда она переехала из Германии.
 - У единоросса Елены Раховой, прославившуюся тем, что она ленинградцев, проживших менее 120 дней в блокаде, назвала "недоблокадниками", дочь живет в США.
 - Дочь экс-спикера ГД,одного из основателей партии "Единая Россия", а ныне члена Совбеза Бориса Грызлова Евгения живёт в Таллине. И даже недавно получила эстонское гражданство.
 - Сын бывшего министра образования Андрей Фурсенко живёт на постоянной основе в США.
 - Сын В.Никонова (внука Молотова), президента фонда «Политика»- гражданин США. А Вам, русские, доказывают, что там плохо????? И Вы еще верите?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 04, 2014, 12:00:08 PM
from Ольга Павли's facebok page (http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100002286875278) google translation:

Stalin's daughter - decades lived and died in the United States.
- Khrushchev's son - a U.S. citizen.
- Where is the daughter of Putin? In Russia, they are not visible.
- Deputy Pehtin. With his son in the United States.
- Minister of Transport, Moscow region - Katsyv. With his son in the United States.
- Children MP Zheleznyaka - live in Switzerland.
- Children Astakhov. One in France and one in England.
- Children and grandchildren "main Russian patriot" head Vladimir Yakunin live outside the country - in England and Switzerland.
- Daughter of the Minister of Foreign Affairs Sergey Lavrov Catherine lives and studies in the United States.
- Son - State Duma Deputy Speaker Alexander Zhukov long lived and studied in London.
- Daughter of Vice Speaker Sergei Gos.Dumy Andenko living and studying in Germany.
- The eldest son of Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Kozak - Alex lives abroad and in the construction business.
- Younger brother Alexey Kozak, Alexander, works for Credit Suisse
- The eldest son of the deputy Remezkova Stepan, recently graduated from College Militaire Valley Forge in Pennsylvania (study year 1 million worth 295,761 rubles.).
His youngest daughter lives in Vienna, where he is engaged in gymnastics. Masha Remezkova represented the national team of Austria (!) On the children's competitions in Ljubljana.
- Daughter deputy V. Fetisov - Anastasia grew and learned to read and SShA.Pisat in Russian Anastasia never learned.
- Daughter Svetlana Nesterova, State Duma member from the faction "United Russia" - lives in England.
- The main champion of "traditional Orthodox values​​" E. Mizulina son Nicholas studied at Oxford University, received his diploma and went to live on a permanent basis in a tolerant Belgium, where gay marriages are allowed.
- Daughter deputy Vorontsov Anna lives in Italy. She moved there from Germany.
- At United Russia Elena Rakhova famous because she Leningrad, lived less than 120 days in the blockade, called "nedoblokadnikami" daughter lives in the United States.
- Daughter of the ex-speaker of the State Duma, one of the founders of the party "United Russia", and now a member of the Security Council Boris Gryzlov Eugene lives in Tallinn. And even recently received Estonian citizenship.
- The son of former Education Minister Andrei Fursenko lives permanently in the United States.
- Son Nikonov (Molotov's grandson), President of the Foundation "Politics" - a U.S. citizen. And to you, Russian, prove that there is bad????? And you still believe?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 04, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands.

Stalin's daughter died last year, and lived not too far from where I grew up, in Wisconsin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 04, 2014, 01:20:58 PM
Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands.

Her current whereabouts are unknown as some people were choosing their words unwisely.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: wicheese on August 04, 2014, 01:24:21 PM
Putin's daughter lives in the Netherlands.

His other daughter lives in Korea.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 04, 2014, 01:29:15 PM

His other daughter lives in Korea.
North or South? ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on August 04, 2014, 01:51:18 PM
Her current whereabouts are unknown as some people were choosing their words unwisely.

She did maintain a residence there.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 05, 2014, 02:09:31 AM
She did maintain a residence there.
To be more precise, her Dutch husband does.
In the wake of the MH17 tragedy a mayor of a small Dutch town poposed to evict Putin´s daughter from the Netherlands as sanction. While he retracted this a very short time after and issued an apology, it was enough for the Faassens to book an extended holiday.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on August 05, 2014, 07:32:31 AM
To be more precise, her Dutch husband does.
In the wake of the MH17 tragedy a mayor of a small Dutch town poposed to evict Putin´s daughter from the Netherlands as sanction. While he retracted this a very short time after and issued an apology, it was enough for the Faassens to book an extended holiday.

That is the story I read although it said nothing about booking a holiday, just that they were gone and haven't been seen. So it's her husbands condo and she doesn't own it or consider it a residence?  ::)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on August 05, 2014, 04:57:58 PM
That is the story I read although it said nothing about booking a holiday, just that they were gone and haven't been seen. So it's her husbands condo and she doesn't own it or consider it a residence?  ::)

FP , you cant beat russian logic when it comes to facts  :D :D :D

being married im sure you have experienced this twist of logic lol

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on August 06, 2014, 07:12:40 AM
FP , you cant beat russian logic when it comes to facts  :D :D :D

being married im sure you have experienced this twist of logic lol

SX

Maybe so but, twisted the other way  :D For example we have "our" car and we have "her" car
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 06, 2014, 10:41:48 AM
A 'rebel' in eastern Ukraine talking about Buk missiles:

http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-rebel-commander-buk-missile/25468569.html?z=670&zp=1 (http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-rebel-commander-buk-missile/25468569.html?z=670&zp=1)

from that article:
'...In a July 22 interview with Reuters, pro-Russian separatist commander Aleksandr Khodakovsky admitted the separatists had the type of antiaircraft missiles believed to have been used to shoot down a Malaysian airliner over eastern Ukraine...'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 06, 2014, 11:27:18 AM
Now why would people see a video like that, and still hold the position that Russia is not sending powerful weapons to Ukraine?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on August 06, 2014, 02:26:17 PM
Maybe so but, twisted the other way  :D For example we have "our" car and we have "her" car

yep , thats them lovely FSU GIRLS logic all right lol  :D

any married guy knows how it wrks with them  ;D ;D
but we love them  all the more for it i reckon
SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: I/O on August 06, 2014, 03:19:53 PM
For example we have "our" car and we have "her" car
Ours when we buy it, mine (wife) when we show it to our friends (initially), yours (husband) when it comes to paying for repairs. Remember - RW thinking - what's yours is mine and what's mine's my own. Topic for another thread.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: I/O on August 06, 2014, 03:28:32 PM
Said the man whose country decimated entire civilizations in the name of the Queen.
There can be much made of that but what the Brit's did do was leave a fairly stable and enduring system of government and prosperity (for the most part) in place. Quite unlike the Spanish and to an extent the French conquerors for example. There's plenty of holes in my proposition but it's worth comparing Canada with Mexico or Australia with the Philippines together with the mess in French speaking North Africa.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 06, 2014, 04:54:54 PM
There can be much made of that but what the Brit's did do was leave a fairly stable and enduring system of government and prosperity (for the most part) in place. Quite unlike the Spanish and to an extent the French conquerors for example. There's plenty of holes in my proposition but it's worth comparing Canada with Mexico or Australia with the Philippines together with the mess in French speaking North Africa.

Near the top of the list is the Brits'  introduction of a proper crapper. 

Comparison of India with China for the period when the former was a British colony gives convincing evidence of the benefits of Anglicization. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 06, 2014, 05:57:03 PM
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0e/Crapper%27s_Valveless_Waste_Preventer.jpg/220px-Crapper%27s_Valveless_Waste_Preventer.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 06, 2014, 06:03:49 PM
Very interesting article on corruption at the top of Ukraine's military command structure.


David Marples is a respected historian.  I believe some of this is true, although the Soviet military was historically one place where corruption did not exist at command levels.


http://opendemocracy.net/od-russia/david-marples-myroslava-uniat/ukrainian-army-is-unprepared-for-war
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: I/O on August 06, 2014, 06:44:01 PM
David Marples is a respected historian.  I believe some of this is true, although the Soviet military was historically one place where corruption did not exist at command levels.
Boethius - It is a good article and from what I understand, is significantly true. Indulge me to take up your point about Soviet Military Corruption thus. Way back when, I was travelling in a "Private Taxi" in Russia from a city to a tourist location along a very well maintained (if not quite a highway) road when much to my horror we suddenly braked and veered down a side track into the bush. Before my self defences became completely physical (as I  was bigger than the non Russian but Russian speaking driver, I figured I could at least make life willing for him on the way out), I found we were parked next to and being refuelled by, a  military bulk tanker hidden (loosely) in the bush with the pump being manned by a 3 star general.
 
I was to later recant my experience to my host and hostess, a charming Russian couple - after being berated thoroughly for daring to escape their watchful eye (and apparent protection) and be so stupid as to hire a taxi driven by who knows whom from who knows where going to see who knows what, I remarked that what amazed me most was the involvement of the 3 star general - my hostesses response was telling. A wry smile followed by "We have a lot of generals in Russia".  I enquired had it always been this way and they both assured me it had, even long before the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Welder on August 06, 2014, 08:10:45 PM
Very interesting article on corruption at the top of Ukraine's military command structure.


David Marples is a respected historian.  I believe some of this is true, although the Soviet military was historically one place where corruption did not exist at command levels.


http://opendemocracy.net/od-russia/david-marples-myroslava-uniat/ukrainian-army-is-unprepared-for-war (http://opendemocracy.net/od-russia/david-marples-myroslava-uniat/ukrainian-army-is-unprepared-for-war)


Interesting article, thanks for posting.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 06, 2014, 10:43:01 PM
Interesting. Thanks. That's a major problem for Ukraine's military.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 06, 2014, 11:26:32 PM
There's propaganda on both sides, but way more coming from Moscow than anywhere else. How many news sources are there out there, that are covering the conflict in Ukraine? Probably hundreds....  Of those hundreds, how many are controlled by Washington? How many news sources are there in Russia? For me, the least believable news sources are over there in Russia. So in a way, that is a lot like the height of the Cold War.

I think we should all post a list of simple truths about the conflict, both in Crimea and eastern Ukraine, and if you'd like, western Ukraine. I'll start:

1- Putin lied about protecting Russian-speakers in Crimea and also eastern Ukraine

All of my sources tell me that Russian speakers were not being singled out and abused in Crimea. What were the problems in Crimea say, 5 years ago? Anyone?
My sources do not confirm the ethnic problem, as stated by Putin.

2- Putin lied about the arrival of additional military from Russia into Ukraine.

Why did he do this? He later admitted that yes, these military convoys were from Russia. To me, it appeared as though he was trying to create the false appearance of a
counter-revolution, a revolution similar to Euromaidan, which was implemented by local citizens, rather than some military or mercenary group.

3- Top separatist commanders in Donetsk are Russian citizens.

This fact, gives the impression that Moscow is fomenting unrest and rebellion in Ukraine. Is that an unreasonable conclusion? Why?

4- Putin has stated that he wants to protect all Russian speakers.


Help me research this to discover exactly where Russian speakers need 'protection'.
Give me some specific references please. On its surface, that statement looks ...really out there. Can someone give me clarification, please. Also, what other 'speakers' need protection? French speakers? Ukrainian speakers? What exactly is Putin's thinking on this subject. I welcome insight from those who know him best. (Russians)

Okay- that's just four facts, but we'll come up with more soon...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 07, 2014, 04:18:47 AM
Hard pressed to get fact based responses from the other side.  But really what that retort would really need is one longy windy Psaki quotes with red type please.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 07, 2014, 07:10:22 PM
Reading your post has forced me to take a break from the somber realities in Ukraine. Thanks for the humor!
  :applaud:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 07, 2014, 07:47:18 PM
Reading your post has forced me to take a break from the somber realities in Ukraine. Thanks for the humor!
  :applaud:

Putin has lots of enemies inside Russia.  Don't believe the hype over this loser.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0jFrZYdMCXI/Ui8oIAJBUwI/AAAAAAAABHQ/yOKPPyAPhZg/s1600/Young+Vladimir+Putin+%25281%2529.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Manny on August 08, 2014, 01:58:12 AM
Reading your post has forced me to take a break from the somber realities in Ukraine.

We are thankful for small mercies.

On propaganda, here is an interesting article: Another Successful American Propaganda Effort (http://mwcnews.net/focus/politics/40093-american-propaganda.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 08, 2014, 04:46:38 AM
(http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2014-07-23/0723-MH17-wreckage-970-630x420.jpg)

Yeah this is all Bush's fault
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 08, 2014, 05:54:15 AM
(http://images.bwbx.io/cms/2014-07-23/0723-MH17-wreckage-970-630x420.jpg)

Yeah this is all Bush's fault
The blood is on the hands of everyone who has been happy over people fighting in this area.
Everyone who has let their blind hatred of another opinion lead to rooting for armed conflict.
Everyone who believes democracy means the largest bully wins.
The blood is on my hands, and on yours.
It can never be washed from them as long as we refuse to understand the other.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 08, 2014, 06:14:43 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8SqwiFbRb4
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 08, 2014, 12:52:28 PM
People are fighting for what? Interviews of terrorists tell us that they are trying to stop the fascist government in Kiev from doing horrible things to the people in eastern Ukraine. They are trying to 'protect their land'.
So, as you see, separatists are motivated by fears induced by propaganda. Just look at what the alleged fascists are doing in Slovyansk. Look at what the fascists are doing in western Ukraine. The facts show us that the new Ukraine government has been taking steps to counter separatism. The government in Kiev has offered eastern Ukrainian governments more autonomy, as you can read in Petroshenko's inaugural speech.
The goal of (Russian)mercenaries is to conduct war not peace. What concessions do they want? The blood is on the separatists hands, along with some Russian citizens and fighters from Chechnya. Isn't that obvious?

The blood is on the hands of everyone who has been happy over people fighting in this area.
Everyone who has let their blind hatred of another opinion lead to rooting for armed conflict.
Everyone who believes democracy means the largest bully wins.
The blood is on my hands, and on yours.
It can never be washed from them as long as we refuse to understand the other.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 08, 2014, 01:11:25 PM
This article supports the reality of Russia's influence, in the separatist camp:

excerpt:
'...The Russian commanders "are fleeing like rats," said Andrei, a 27-year-old rebel in Donetsk. Like other locals who have joined the separatist cause, he gave only his first name out of fear of retribution either from the rebel leadership for speaking freely or from the Ukrainian authorities for taking up arms. "We had hoped for help from Moscow, we had expected Russian troops, but Russia betrayed us," Andrei said. "Many fighters are beginning to think about their future and also are escaping to Russia."
complete article:
http://www.whdh.com/story/26230010/new-ukrainian-rebel-leader-gives-moscow-distance
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 08, 2014, 03:22:36 PM
To save the village we had to destroy it
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on August 08, 2014, 06:33:33 PM

The blood is on my hands, and on yours.
It can never be washed from them as long as we refuse to understand the other.

Shadow, please explain exactly how I cause that Malaysian plane to fall out of the sky?

Or were you just trying to make one of those Martin Luther King type speeches?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 08, 2014, 07:02:38 PM
That last statement you quoted from him, makes no sense.  How exactly did I shoot these people out of the sky?  Tell me how I looted stuff from the crash site?  Tell me how I stole the black box?

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 09, 2014, 03:14:00 AM
It is clear to see who are too blinded to understand.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 09, 2014, 07:39:34 AM
What are the Dutch going to do about this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bf_IsgOsFGk

Nothing?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 09, 2014, 07:45:30 AM
What are the Dutch going to do about this?



Nothing?
Forensic investigation to hand the remains over to their families.
What else?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 09, 2014, 10:49:49 AM
An intelligent journalist in Russia. This can be translated by google translate.

http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/3292-zhurnalist-iz-rf-ya-hochu-chtoby-ukraina-znala-chto-est-i-drugie-russkie
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 09, 2014, 11:13:10 AM
An intelligent journalist in Russia. This can be translated by google translate.

http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/3292-zhurnalist-iz-rf-ya-hochu-chtoby-ukraina-znala-chto-est-i-drugie-russkie (http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/3292-zhurnalist-iz-rf-ya-hochu-chtoby-ukraina-znala-chto-est-i-drugie-russkie)
Impossible. Anyone disagreeing with Putin is in jail or dead, and there is no free press.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 09, 2014, 11:54:39 AM
Read the article. ....Interesting!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chelseaboy on August 09, 2014, 12:31:49 PM
Now that Donetsk is totally surrounded by Ukrainian troops,Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov and the Separatist leader are both bleating about an impending humanitarian disaster and pleading for a peacekeeping force in eastern Ukraine.

Looks like they're trying to find an escape route for the pro-Russian terrorists before they get wiped out.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 09, 2014, 01:50:15 PM
An escape route is fine, as long as they don't take their war elsewhere on Ukrainian soil. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gylden on August 09, 2014, 02:38:20 PM
Disgusting
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPnb97ybtiU&feature=player_embedded (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPnb97ybtiU&feature=player_embedded)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 09, 2014, 02:54:52 PM
Its not propaganda if its true:

http://vk.com/video-36358473_169705804?list=88964adad9780a61a7&og=1

Video of a Yalta woman who bought milk and when she opened up the packet its water.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on August 09, 2014, 03:17:58 PM
Disgusting
 
 
What exactly is disgusting?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 09, 2014, 05:24:35 PM
Did you watch it, Doll?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on August 09, 2014, 06:06:55 PM
Not the whole thing but it is just the rock concert- show.
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on August 09, 2014, 06:23:01 PM
Actually, it says it is a BIKE show.
I don't like things like this but somebody does.
Are rock shows in the USA any better?
Same crazy. So what?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 09, 2014, 06:32:15 PM
No, it was not just a bike show.  Halfway in, they have two tanks with Ukrainian flags, that they eventually attack.


Ultranationalist and obscure.  But yes, you can see the same things in other countries as well.  I've never seen anything like it in the modern West, though.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 09, 2014, 06:54:26 PM
A couple of swastikas if I am not mistaken as well, no?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 09, 2014, 10:52:46 PM
Yes, a human formation of swastikas, to represent Ukrainians.  Then, mock executions, hangings, a globe with Ukraine and the tryzub in blood, a union of the Ukrainian "fascists" and America, and rescue by terrorists freedom fighters.


To me, it is shocking. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 09, 2014, 11:40:52 PM
idk, I like motorcycles but scum is scum and a lot of 'em traffic on 2 wheels whatever the nationality
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 12:28:50 AM
Ukrainians and especially western Ukrainians are being demonized as fascist radicals. IN that context, refugees from eastern Ukraine are being sent to shelters in western Ukraine where the alleged evil 'fascists' are now giving them aid and shelter. This is the best kind of message to send, a message of compassion:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/western-ukraines-banderstadt-shelters-eastern-ukraines-refugees-359873.html (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/western-ukraines-banderstadt-shelters-eastern-ukraines-refugees-359873.html)

excerpt:
'...
In Ivano-Frankivsk, non-government youth organisation Etalon is setting an innovative example of cross-sectoral cooperation. People like Tanya from Luhansk can get help right away from representatives of health, education, migration, employment and social services gathered in one room of the Osvita building. Psychologists and lawyers are there to provide counselling. Notices on the walls offer free tours of the town, or trips to the nearby Carpathian mountains. When Tanya arrives, she is at once offered a food package and up to two week’s free stay in the Banderstadt hotel.
The name Banderstadt comes from controversial Ukrainian nationalist leader Stepan Bandera, who lived from 1909-1959, when a KGB agent murdered him in Munich, Germany...'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 01:14:59 AM
The problem with that performance, which took place in Crimea, is that it is being broadcast to the people of Russia, with only one goal: propaganda!!!!
How can Russians allow this to happen? If you look at the new government in Ukraine, you will not find fascists or Nazis!! Look at Poroshenko. Yes, I would call him an oligarch, but certainly NOT a fascist. Please refer me to the fascist writings or statements of Poroshenko. The new government in Kiev is quite tolerant, especially in contrast to Putin's government. Russia allows dual citizenship, EXCEPT in 'their' new Crimea. (?!?)
     Russia is WAY more fascist than Ukraine, and yet now we have an extravaganza in Crimea portraying the government in Kiev as 'Nazi'. Russians should be ashamed of this performance. It's sickening. Doll, you find this acceptable???? Yikes! You won't find this kind of propaganda in Kiev against Russia. Ukrainians simply want Russian citizens to stop meddling inside Ukraine and want Ukraine to remain unified. I think that's reasonable. There are basically two types of Russians. 1- those who can see Moscow's manipulations  2- those who are quick to hate and demonize those who are 'separate' from Moscow, in their thinking and actual territory.
     You're wrong, if you see Russians as some sort of superior culture or ethnicity. The Russian culture is no better than the French culture, the German, the Italian, the American, the Polish, etc.   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 01:18:35 AM
Russian culture is NOT superior to Ukrainian culture. Russians are not superior to Ukrainians.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on August 10, 2014, 01:33:28 PM
Disgusting


Yes, and what is worrisome is that rather than trying to scale back the rhetoric, they are intensifying it to a feverish pitch. This when the Ukrainian Army is gaining even more ground. It makes an all-out war between Russian and Ukraine that much more likely IMVHO as it will make it that harder for Putin to get out of the corner in which he painted himself into and is insisting on adding a second coat just to be sure...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 01:57:36 PM
video from Russia: the swastika section:
http://youtu.be/EwwBFJkwZ_Q
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 10, 2014, 03:37:10 PM

Yes, and what is worrisome is that rather than trying to scale back the rhetoric, they are intensifying it to a feverish pitch. This when the Ukrainian Army is gaining even more ground. It makes an all-out war between Russian and Ukraine that much more likely IMVHO as it will make it that harder for Putin to get out of the corner in which he painted himself into and is insisting on adding a second coat just to be sure...

If he goes to war, doesn't he loose his money train?  European gas consumers?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: I/O on August 10, 2014, 03:41:32 PM
If he goes to war, doesn't he loose his money train?  European gas consumers?
I would be highly surprised.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 10, 2014, 04:16:17 PM
80% of the pipelines run through Ukraine and attacking the infrastructure is what you do in war.  It is number 1 or number 2.  So if there is an invasion, that goes bye bye.  Also MH17 did Putin no favors.  Whether you believe as the world does that he is responsible, or whether you cling to your tin foil hat, the fact is Putin got the blame.  Another invasion and  . . . I mean he just gets further isolated
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: I/O on August 10, 2014, 05:06:55 PM
80% of the pipelines run through Ukraine and attacking the infrastructure is what you do in war.  It is number 1 or number 2.  So if there is an invasion, that goes bye bye.
Quite the opposite. RU isn't about to kill the fatted calf....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on August 10, 2014, 05:19:46 PM
I think LT means if the Russians are to openly invade, then the Ukrainian army should blow up all the gas pipes.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Misha on August 10, 2014, 05:35:12 PM
If he goes to war, doesn't he loose his money train?  European gas consumers?


Putin's main concern is holding onto power at all costs IMVHO. However, these things often take on a life of their own. "Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall." The danger is that Putin may begin to believe the propaganda...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: I/O on August 10, 2014, 05:44:22 PM
then the Ukrainian army should blow up all the gas pipes.
Then UA loses out on taxes - either way, the pipes are safe enough.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 05:56:14 PM
If he goes to war, doesn't he loose his money train?  European gas consumers?

Of course!
Putin is Ruining Russia, and one major reason I say that is based on how most of the world perceives him. Back when he 'secretly' poured more Russian troops into Crimea, under the guise of 'Protecting Russian-Speakers', I knew the world would see him as a loose cannon, a leader who cannot be trusted. That will affect the Russian economy, which is part of the world economy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 06:35:10 PM
From the former president of Georgia

excerpt:
'..I had 36 meetings with Putin. At almost each one he repeated that Ukraine is not a real state, but a territory. He was absolutely convinced that Ukraine has only 5 million people like Georgia. And the rest are simply an artificial organization of people. Ukrainians, to his mind, live in Ivano-Frankivsk, in Lviv, and in Volyn, and that’s it..'

full article:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/10/saakashvili-ukraine-will-be-the-end-of-putin/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on August 10, 2014, 06:51:20 PM
From the former president of Georgia

excerpt:
'..I had 36 meetings with Putin. At almost each one he repeated that Ukraine is not a real state, but a territory. He was absolutely convinced that Ukraine has only 5 million people like Georgia. And the rest are simply an artificial organization of people. Ukrainians, to his mind, live in Ivano-Frankivsk, in Lviv, and in Volyn, and that’s it..'

full article:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/10/saakashvili-ukraine-will-be-the-end-of-putin/

A must read for anyone interested in Ukraine's future....

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 10, 2014, 08:48:18 PM
If he goes to war, doesn't he loose his money train?  European gas consumers?


Putin has already made backup plans with China if that happens. Obama and the EU wants to bring a trade war to a gun fight. I'm not convinced that is going to stop Putin from taking part or all of Ukraine. If he orders a full invasion, he'll still be a millionaire many times over and his people who are backing his actions more than ever will gladly accept the financial burden of sanctions believing it's someone other than Putin's fault. Regardless the events, a few years after it's over, everybody will get back to business as usual.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 10, 2014, 08:53:26 PM
No.  His China deal won't start until 2018.

http://studentreporter.org/2014/07/pivot-to-the-east-demystifying-the-russia-china-natural-gas-deal/

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 10, 2014, 09:08:52 PM
Billy- No. If there's a full invasion, many Ukrainians will shift to a continuous guerilla war. Putin has created enemies, enemies who once felt like brothers. Tragic...and for what?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 11, 2014, 02:18:41 PM
Billy- No. If there's a full invasion, many Ukrainians will shift to a continuous guerilla war. Putin has created enemies, enemies who once felt like brothers. Tragic...and for what?


Partisan war. The Ukrainians will start a partisan war.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 11, 2014, 02:44:47 PM
Interesting quote today by Lavrov:

SOCHI, August 11 (RIA Novosti) – The Kiev government’s military operation in eastern Ukraine seems to be aimed at “razing the southeast to the ground” and forcing the Russian-speaking population to flee, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Monday.

“So far, it seems that the purpose of the so-called anti-terrorist operation is to raze the southeast [of Ukraine] to the ground and make all Russians leave it. Apparently, with a purpose to later populate it with those who have a different view of our history, culture, friendship and centuries-long ties between our peoples,” Lavrov told reporters during his visit to Sochi.

*****************************************************************

Yup.  They want to get rid of all of the Russian speakers in Ukraine.  Let's see.  That's three quarters of the population!

Here's the article:

http://en.ria.ru/politics/20140811/191918317/Kiev-Seeks-to-Raze-Southeast-to-the-Ground-Expel-Russian.html

Does this constitute propaganda and fit in the "The Proaganda War" thread?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 11, 2014, 04:11:05 PM
Right! The Ukrainians I know, prefer the Russian language, and they think Putin is mad. Lavrov speaks pure propaganda.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 11, 2014, 07:54:11 PM
I found this great story over at Euromaidan Press. Is it propaganda?
A man with cerebral palsy rescues people in Donbas:

excerpt:
'...When I was taking people out of Snizhne, thirteen people have managed to fit inside my car. I couldn’t even fathom it’s possible. There were only eleven of them to begin with, but they told me that there were two more people in Shahtarsk who needed to be picked up. I asked them: “How?”As I approached Shahtarsk, two elderly men were waiting there. They said that they would be able to fit in. I told them: “Where?! You can’t! It’s impossible.” They started crying as I drove away. I came back for them and they got into the car! I don’t know how...'

full article:
http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/11/an-incredible-story-a-disabled-donetsk-man-daily-evacuates-elderly-and-children/

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 11, 2014, 08:19:38 PM
All of the comments at Poroshenko's facebook are against Putin's Russia. They ask- How can Ukraine now cooperate with the 'aggressor', in the new humanitarian project in Lugansk?  Are all of these individuals CIA operatives, or just regular Ukrainians? Propaganda?
http://www.facebook.com/petroporoshenko/photos/a.474415552692842.1073741828.474409562693441/488600947940969/?type=1
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 13, 2014, 12:01:30 PM
Oooo, more propaganda (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/12/russia-s-suspicious-humanitarian-aid-for-ukraine-separatists.html).



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 14, 2014, 10:37:32 AM
Translation please.


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/hacked_zps6278d0a9.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 14, 2014, 11:00:19 AM
Press accreditation for the phony republics
Title: Daily Field Report by OSCE
Post by: GQBlues on August 14, 2014, 11:14:34 AM
DAILY UKRAINE FIELD REPORT BY OSCE (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/daily-updates)

Quote
...A group of internally displaced persons (IDPs) from Pervomais'k (76km west of Luhansk city) spoke to the SMM at Svatovo IDP transit camp (150km northwest of Luhansk city). They said that only 10,000 of Pervomais'k’s 80,000 inhabitants remained in the town. The town, they said, was being shelled by both Ukrainian military forces and irregular armed forces. The result, they said, was that almost all apartment blocks in the town had sustained damage, and only 30% of detached houses were intact. They said that 200 people had been killed in the town, and more than 400 wounded, since the shelling allegedly started on 22 July, with the dead being buried in courtyards. The town’s mayor, contacted later by the SMM over the phone, corroborated the figures supplied by the IDPs....

OSCE Report August 12, 2014 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122578)



Quote
...Police in the Luhansk region accuse a volunteer military battalion of illegal detentions.

Municipal officials in Pervomaiskii (90 km southwest of Kharkiv city) told the SMM that public sentiment in the Pervomaiskii district is pro-Russian, with 80% of the population being ethnic Russian and a third of the district’s men working in the Russian Federation. People do not support the Kyiv government, they said. The officials stressed, however, that there was no appetite for separatism amongst the population – the maintenance of peace was more important.

The regional chief of police told the SMM in Severodonetsk (97 km northwest of Luhansk city) that the detention of supporters of the so-called “Luhansk People’s Republic” (“LPR”), carried out by a volunteer Ukrainian battalion at the filtration checkpoint in Schyatya (24 km north of Luhansk city), was illegal.  He likened the battalion’s behaviour to that of the irregular armed forces, adding that he was about to write to the Ministry of Defence, which controls the battalion, to have the battalion removed from the area. He said the mayor of Luhansk city, who had been detained by the battalion at the checkpoint, and whose whereabouts had been unknown since then, was now in “a safe place”, protected by the police, and considered a “crime victim”.  The police chief did, however, say that police at the checkpoint were seeking out suspects of illegal activities. He said they had a list, and when arrests were made suspects were handed over to the Security Service of Ukraine (SBU)....

OSCE Report Dated August 13, 2014 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122607)



Quote
...The SMM learnt about cases of detention of two villagers in the Luhansk region. The head of Starobilsk police told the SMM that investigations had confirmed that soldiers from the 24th Battalion, a volunteer battalion under the control of the Ukrainian Ministry of Defence, was responsible for the abduction of the villagers, as well as their detention. In a meeting with the Ukrainian military commander of the security operation, the SMM was told that the military general staff had been visiting the area in order to assess further involvement of the 24th Battalion. The findings had not been revealed so far. The interlocutor said that, in his view, the 24th Battalion ought to be disbanded, reformed and redeployed...

OSCE Report August 14, 2014 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122628)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 14, 2014, 02:41:39 PM
For a man who has never served in the military you sure are pretending to expertise.  Tell us again of your indifference to winners and losers.

Where's the win win?
Title: Re: Daily Field Report by OSCE
Post by: GQBlues on August 15, 2014, 03:48:35 PM
OSCE Daily Report, August 15, 2014 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122661)


Quote
...In Kharkiv the regional administration informed the SMM that a convoy of 26 trucks carrying Ukrainian humanitarian aid had left the city for Luhansk city. The convoy was accompanied by traffic police. The SMM met with the regional deputy head of the social protection department who said that the Kharkiv region had not been prepared for a big influx of IDPs coming from the conflict zone hence there was no co-ordinated effort to face the needs of IDPs. Efforts were made at the district level and in an ad hoc manner, the interlocutor said. According to the interlocutor, the Kharkiv region “has exhausted” its capacity to absorb additional IDPs; the lack of a unified IDP database hinders the capacity to properly plan and respond to different categories of IDPs, particularly the most vulnerable categories, such as children with disabilities.


At 13:30 the SMM heard a series of loud explosions consistent with shelling, and subsequently observed what appeared to be two bodies between 300 to 500 metres from the SMM’s initial location in the city centre of Donetsk. People at the scene told the SMM that there had also been a number of people injured. The SMM noted that an apartment on the fourth floor of a residential block had been destroyed and that all windows at the back of a building across the road had been shattered following what appeared to have been a mortar shell impact in the backyard of the building. At a nearby street, several windows and the entrance of a maternity clinic were damaged from what appeared to have been a mortar shell impact in the nearby yard. The SMM observed no military facilities in the vicinity.

 :(

Actually learned a new word (for me) today, *lustration*.

Quote
Lustration (from the Latin verb lustrare, to ceremonially purify) refers to a policy that seeks to cleanse a new regime from the remnants of the past. The process involves screening new officials (elected or appointed) for involvement in the former regime and sets some consequences if they are found to have been involved....

Sobolev, the newly appointed head of Ukraine's Lustration Committee, said:

Quote from: Sobolev
...the goal of the lustration law will be to ban Yanukovych and his closest allies from politics for life, as well as to screen and remove those who are "agents of foreign secret service, people who have been involved in corruption, and people who have been involved in destruction of democracy."...

The first thought to come to mind then was...

Quote from: US Ambassador for reasons 1.4 (b) and (d) - 2006


1. (C) During an April 28 meeting with Ambassador, Our Ukraine (OU) insider Petro Poroshenko emphatically denied he was using his influence with the Prosecutor General to put pressure on Tymoshenko lieutenant Oleksandr Turchynov (refs A and B).  Coalition talks with the Tymoshenko Bloc (BYuT) were continuing, but there was no progress to report; President Yushchenko still seemed unwilling to accept Tymoshenko as prime minister and was "listening" to influential advocates of cooperation with the Party of Regions.  Poroshenko claimed that he was personally opposed to an "Orange-Blue" pairing. Poroshenko related that he had spoken at length with Tymoshenko on April 27; she had sought, and then spurned, his assistance in forming a BYuT-OU coalition in the Kiev city council.  Poroshenko confided that he had spoken with Tymoshenko during the Orthodox Easter weekend (April 22-23); she had called him to ask "what he wanted" in return for his support for her serving again as PM. 

Poroshenko said he had replied that he wanted her to be more flexible and less high-handed in the coalition talks.  Poroshenko groused that Tymoshenko could not be trusted, stressing that she was not candid and not "principled."  It was very possible, Poroshenko warned, that there could be a crisis scenario in which Tymoshenko and Yushchenko simply could not get a coalition deal done.  End summary.

There's more on the *corrupton* segment for later.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 15, 2014, 04:23:34 PM
Fair and balanced!
Title: Re: Daily Field Report by OSCE
Post by: SANDRO43 on August 15, 2014, 04:51:14 PM
Actually learned a new word (for me) today, *lustration*.
I, too:
Quote
Lustration is a recently coined term that refers to the purge of government officials once affiliated with the Communist system in Eastern Europe. Various forms of lustration were employed in post-communist Europe. The concept might resemble de-Nazification in post-World War II Europe, and the de-Ba'athification in post-Saddam Hussein Iraq, and therefore resonates with concepts such as possible accountability for past human rights abuses, corruption or injustice. The term is taken from the Roman lustrum purification rituals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lustration

We have a derived term in Italian (acqua lustrale, lustral water) that applies to the holy water held in a church stoup or sprinkled in benediction by a priest with an aspersorium:

(http://www.mmaq.qc.ca/Photos/10_depotSL.jpg#ActualImage)

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 16, 2014, 01:09:18 AM
Interesting GQ, I'll be curious to read your next installment.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 16, 2014, 07:49:13 AM
Finally the win win,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/russia-ukraine-fighting_n_5681870.html

The President of Russia gets to send troops and material to his mercenaries in Ukraine and on the way The President of kills the Russian soldiers sent by the President of Russia.  Win Win!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 16, 2014, 08:44:48 AM
Finally the win win,

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/15/russia-ukraine-fighting_n_5681870.html

The President of Russia gets to send troops and material to his mercenaries in Ukraine and on the way The President of kills the Russian soldiers sent by the President of Russia.  Win Win!

Although it has been obvious that you were motivated by anger, hate, and body counts, it is nice to see you 'out' yourself by celebrating Russian deaths.  Can you tell us more about your great wartime 'heroism' snd how this uniquely qualifies you?

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 16, 2014, 08:52:41 AM
What do you care?  Ukraine and Russia are just exercising their sovereign rights.  The main thing is that we stay out of it because we are to blame for everything wars, diseases, cankles, everything
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 16, 2014, 10:41:40 AM
LT,

I have one for you to hit out of the park:

I was watching the statements coming in from British news services that Ukraine had hit the convoy that Russia tried to send across the border two nights ago.   Poroshenko said that it was 'mostly destroyed'. 

It occurred to me that the soldiers brought forth from Ukraine have gotten much better at fighting as the war goes on.  (Obviously they were in a state of disorganization when the two Oblasts were taken.)  Can you tell me how long it really takes to come up to speed as a gunner on an artillery piece?  And how long it really takes to be able to use the intelligence assets that are available? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 16, 2014, 11:05:05 AM
Can you tell me how long it really takes to come up to speed as a gunner on an artillery piece? 

An experienced mortar, tank or 105 mm Howizter team can reload and fire in less than 3 minutes.  MLRS or Multiple Launch Rocket Systems its push button killing.

And how long it really takes to be able to use the intelligence assets that are available?

That is more difficult question.  Intelligence assets as you know could be anything.  It could be receipts it could be Satellite imagery that the US-NATO selectively give to the Ukrainians for political (or propaganda) purposes.  [I guess its not propaganda if its true.]  Manned and unmanned overflights are instantaneous.  The entire world knows that the US has the best signals intelligence.  The NSA is the federal agency but the services themselves have very sophisticated real time assets.  It is a open question how much intelligence sharing the West is providing the Ukrainians.  If you ask our Kremlin friends, its too much.  If you ask me, its not enough.

But for the purposes of your question, presuming I understand, if the West was not helping the Ukrainians who quickly could they get intelligence of the movements and positions of this armored column.  The British set up a system of eyes around the Pacific tracking Japanese ship movements.  These eyes were Merchant Marines, Lighthouse tenders but they also included a Catholic priest and other less obvious human intelligence sources.  You know the roads better than anyone here except maybe JayH.  There are only a few roads that they could have entered on.  Though tracked vehicles can go off road, but the trucks themselves need the hard ball so presumably Air Assets like the Mi-24 Hinds destroyed them:

(http://airheadsfly.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/mi24ukrarmy201404021346462831_ukrmindef.jpg)   

One of the arguments against tanks is that they are highly vulnerable to these attacks.  The Buks weren't there to protect them.  We haven't seen the Battle Damage Assessments from open source reporters to speculate how they were destroyed or even if they were destroyed.

The Ukrainian War Ministry says it has sealed the border.  I don't believe this.  But it is possible that the Russian column met their end in a tank battle or using land based assets (IEDs, anti-tank guns, etc).  But this is IMO doubtful.

I hope this answers your question.  Thank you for asking.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 18, 2014, 07:08:38 PM
'...For many Russians, for whatever reason, it is difficult to understand one very simple thing: Ukraine is not Russia, and Ukrainians are not Russians...'


http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/18/ukraine-is-not-russia-and-ukrainians-are-not-russians/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 18, 2014, 08:08:41 PM
Well, yes and no, there are a lot of Ukrainians in Russia and they have a common origin.  My Betsy is Ukrainian but I talk to Russians too and Russians of Ukrainian descent and vice versa.  Things are not black and white like they are in Ferguson.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 19, 2014, 01:41:32 PM
Did you read the article?
It's not black and white, here or there....

The point of the article is that since becoming an independent state in 1991, Ukraine and Russia have moved in very different directions. I know Olga in Kiev. She tells me her ethnicity is "Russian". She tells me she is a citizen of Ukraine and does not want to be a citizen of Russia. So, in terms of nationality, she is pro-Ukrainian. There are people in Ukraine with ancestors in Greece. They are not pro-Greece. They are pro-Ukrainian. The Russian insurgency in eastern Ukraine has brought many Ukrainians against Russia, who they see as trying to force parts of Ukraine to become a part of Putin's 'New Russia'. Ethnic Russians who are Ukrainians, remember how Russia turned off the gas a few years ago. It affected them in their flats. The people in Donbas have been neglected for the last 20 years, even under Yanukovych. The government in Kiev is NEW. It has not had a chance to implement reforms because it is so busy fighting a war instigated by Moscow. Ethnic Russians in Ukraine prefer the EU over Russia. Putin can't understand that. When have Russians in Russia determined their own political future? If you ask your typical 18 year old in Ukraine, where they would rather live: Poland? France? Russia? ...Putin does not want Ukraine's citizens to make that choice, on a political level. Ukraine is evolving in a good way. Russia is not.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 19, 2014, 05:35:51 PM
No.  I didn't read it.  I thought it was one you posted earlier however I read it today.  25% of the Russian language depends on English loanwords like progress and President.  If you listen to the Eurasians who are supporting Putin they want to replace that with Russian words eliminate the machy zak and de-Ukrainize Russia.  The problem is there is a lot of Russia that is Ukrainian and vice versa.  Ripping that element out of Russian society is like us getting rid of all the Spanish people or black or Irish people.

Separatism in Russia is a serious problem not because I think the peoples of the Kuban, Sibera, Kaliningrad, or Karelia have real ethnic differences like Dagestan or Chechnya,  but because Moscow governance is so bad and so corrupt.  The Euromaidan that Berzozsky was planning in 2004 against his old enemy is happening.  He is seeing it from the grave.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 19, 2014, 11:33:38 PM
Russian speakers?
What is this woman from Donetsk saying about Putin? Does she speak truth or propaganda?
http://youtu.be/Nqdv0rjkasA?list=UUwguW5HUwPJN1vss6WrstIw
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ronnie on August 20, 2014, 03:50:55 AM
She's a resident of Slavyansk.  She says the DNR's so-called protectors" were nothing but bandits, Chechens and drug adicts with automatic weapons in their hands and how she wants the Ukrainian Army to get them out of her town. (the did, of course).
Of course this is true.  I live in Odesa and come across refugees from the ATO zone who say the same.  These Russian-lead terrorists car killing people, shelling homes (and blaming the Ukraine army), hijacking cars off the streets and from car sales salons.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ronnie on August 20, 2014, 04:18:33 AM
Even worse than the bike show propaganda ...now they are using little girls to make Ukraine out to be a war monger.  Wow.  How do normal Russians deal with this insane propaganda?  Are they not insulted by the assumptions made by their government that Russians will believe this, when most of them know people who live in Ukraine and know there are no fascists or warmongers here except the ones Moscow sends in to destabilize the country, to punish it for getting rid of their puppet, Yanukovych.

.http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TaXKGToxduE
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 21, 2014, 05:33:55 PM
Apparently, NPR is one of many flabbergasted media, including OSCE and the US Intelliegnce, trying to get *proofs* of claims and accusations being repeatedly made in this silly conflict but keeps coming up *zero*.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/21/342095395/news-out-of-eastern-ukraine-battle-zone-is-hard-to-confirm (http://www.npr.org/2014/08/21/342095395/news-out-of-eastern-ukraine-battle-zone-is-hard-to-confirm)

Or, listen to the Podcast (http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=342095395&m=342095396) instead.

Quote
....
As to the deadly attack on the refugee convoy, I still don't know what happened, as the Ukrainian military decided to make us leave the area before we met with the injured refugees we were told we'd be interviewing because the fighting was too intense.

Nor did we meet the military driver who served as an escort for that ill-fated convoy. Ukrainian officials said they would bring him to us outside the no-go zone since they failed to take us to see the wounded refugees. But in the end, the military did not deliver the driver, either....


MH17, the *completely destroyed Russian artillery convoy* that Poroshenko claimed a week ago, etc...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 21, 2014, 07:01:09 PM
This is a lot of opinions from a guy who says he is indifferent to what happens in Ukraine
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 22, 2014, 05:18:55 AM
Apparently, NPR is one of many flabbergasted media, including OSCE and the US Intelliegnce, trying to get *proofs* of claims and accusations being repeatedly made in this silly conflict but keeps coming up *zero*.

http://www.npr.org/2014/08/21/342095395/news-out-of-eastern-ukraine-battle-zone-is-hard-to-confirm (http://www.npr.org/2014/08/21/342095395/news-out-of-eastern-ukraine-battle-zone-is-hard-to-confirm)


Quote from the link provided:
Quote
But Ukrainian officials have yet to offer any proof of the attack, including photos, videos, eyewitnesses or survivors.

Do they mean something along the lines of this?
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?mashinu_rozirvalo_na_shmatki__ochevidets_pro_obstril_avtobusa_z_bizhentsya mi_video&objectId=476056 (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?mashinu_rozirvalo_na_shmatki__ochevidets_pro_obstril_avtobusa_z_bizhentsyami_video&objectId=476056)

If so internet is full of it for those who wish to look for it instead of spamming net with 'no proof' BS.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 22, 2014, 10:14:22 AM
Yes, there is plenty of proof out there.

What do Russians think of this fact??:
the Russian convoy of 280 tracks are 'almost empty', containing only water and salt.
What conclusions can we draw from that? To me it looks like Russia has no intention of helping in eastern Ukraine. Why aren't the trucks also filled with food and medicine? Again Russia is showing no respect for Ukrainian territorial integrity. This is what the world sees. ...The trucks should be used to remove pro-Russian separatists!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2014, 10:36:25 AM
Quote from the link provided:
Do they mean something along the lines of this?
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?mashinu_rozirvalo_na_shmatki__ochevidets_pro_obstril_avtobusa_z_bizhentsya (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?mashinu_rozirvalo_na_shmatki__ochevidets_pro_obstril_avtobusa_z_bizhentsya) mi_video&objectId=476056

If so internet is full of it for those who wish to look for it instead of spamming net with 'no proof' BS.

Oh, another social media anecdotal *proof* in a country widely known to be corrupt.

Poroshenko claimed the army completely destroyed a Russian heavy artillery convoy, but no one can seem to find remnants of the destroyed convoy. It's been reported that supplies keep coming from Russia, but even with the US intelligence on the ground, in the air, OSCE monitors, not the UN monitors, etc...no one from any of these entities can come forth and present hard irrefutable evidences other than youtube/twitter feeds conveniently provided for by Kiev.

Yup, there sure is a whole lot of *proofs* out there in the internet, isn't it?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 22, 2014, 10:52:54 AM


  To me it looks like Russia has no intention of helping in eastern Ukraine. Why aren't the trucks also filled with food and medicine? Again Russia is showing no respect for Ukrainian territorial integrity. This is what the world sees. .


Speaking of territorial integrity...it has been all over the news lately from the Obama people that Syria no longer has official borders because ISIS doesn't recognize them...I suspect it won't be much longer before we are dropping bombs from afar in their country....but that doesn't matter because Syria doesn't have an 'official border' anymore.  :rolleyes:   If the USA can do what it wants then who are we to tell other countries  " NO you may not"! 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

Speaking of territorial integrity...it has been all over the news lately from the Obama people that Syria no longer has official borders because ISIS doesn't recognize them...I suspect it won't be much longer before we are dropping bombs from afar in their country....but that doesn't matter because Syria doesn't have an 'official border' anymore.  :rolleyes:   If the USA can do what it wants then who are we to tell other countries  " NO you may not"! 


Fathertime!




Heh, heh, heh


That never deterred the US from dropping bombs somewhere. Ask the Colombians. You of all people should know.
(Hint, Hint: Since you can't see past your nose, look up the birth of Panama. Definitely a win-win. But not for the Colombians)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 22, 2014, 11:21:22 AM



Heh, heh, heh


That never deterred the US from dropping bombs somewhere.


Well then if we are dropping bombs everywhere without respect to 'territorial integrity' that should be something Photoguy takes note of, as he was just groaning that Russia isn't showing the respect to Ukraine, the very thing that the USA also doesn't show to other countries. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2014, 11:38:08 AM

Well then if we are dropping bombs everywhere without respect to 'territorial integrity' that should be something Photoguy takes note of, as he was just groaning that Russia isn't showing the respect to Ukraine, the very thing that the USA also doesn't show to other countries. 


Fathertime!


Why is Photoguy part of this? I was trying to educate you, not Photoguy.


It's useless. :P
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 22, 2014, 11:45:05 AM

Why is Photoguy part of this? I was trying to educate you, not Photoguy.


It's useless. :P


Your post was to a response (0f mine) to his (PHotoguy's) post regarding 'territorial integrity' ...   Perhaps that is a little too complicated for you, but I understand. If you can't keep up, maybe somebody can sell you the Cliff Notes. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2014, 12:11:07 PM

Your post was to a response (0f mine) to his (PHotoguy's) post regarding 'territorial integrity' ...   Perhaps that is a little too complicated for you, but I understand. If you can't keep up, maybe somebody can sell you the Cliff Notes. 


Fathertime!


Try if you must. You still sound foolish.


Heh heh heh
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 22, 2014, 12:27:49 PM

Try if you must. You still sound foolish.


Heh heh heh


Sound?  You can 'hear' me?  What big ears you have!




(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/078/e/6/50_chibis_disney___dumbo_by_princekido-d3bypvq.jpg)


Fathertime! 

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 22, 2014, 01:35:48 PM
Oh, another social media anecdotal *proof* in a country widely known to be corrupt.

Is this is some kind of sick joke?

You posted link to article in which claim made there is no any proof of the attack, including photos, videos, eyewitnesses or survivors.
I posted link to video where eyewitnesses or survivors told what happened, I didn't start to post photos because it is heartbreaking as it is without photos in the hope that people have enough of common sense to realize how ridiculous for author of article to claim there is no any proof of the attack.
Writing on net gibberish about country that know almost nothing about and language of which do not understand is easy. Be fool enough to comment on something that language barrier makes unable to understand is easy too and even easier to try to be an expert on the net on what is real and what is anecdotal proof  in foreigner to you country, mentality and language.  :wallbash:


Poroshenko claimed the army completely destroyed a Russian heavy artillery convoy, but no one can seem to find remnants of the destroyed convoy. It's been reported that supplies keep coming from Russia, but even with the US intelligence on the ground, in the air, OSCE monitors, not the UN monitors, etc...no one from any of these entities can come forth and present hard irrefutable evidences other than youtube/twitter feeds conveniently provided for by Kiev.

Yup, there sure is a whole lot of *proofs* out there in the internet, isn't it?

Oh so because nothing to say on one matter lets bring completely different one in.  :wallbash:
Lets do so, you post what exactly word to word Poroshenko claimed and then we discuss that matter, instead of writing 'net expertise' nonsense which has no value or much in comment with reality.

EDIT: by the way NATO officials confirmed Russia is supplying tanks, artillery, etc to separatists.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 22, 2014, 03:40:37 PM
Is this is some kind of sick joke?

You posted link to article in which claim made there is no any proof of the attack, including photos, videos, eyewitnesses or survivors.

I posted link to video where eyewitnesses or survivors told what happened, I didn't start to post photos because it is heartbreaking as it is without photos in the hope that people have enough of common sense to realize how ridiculous for author of article to claim there is no any proof of the attack.

Writing on net gibberish about country that know almost nothing about and language of which do not understand is easy. Be fool enough to comment on something that language barrier makes unable to understand is easy too and even easier to try to be an expert on the net on what is real and what is anecdotal proof  in foreigner to you country, mentality and language.  :wallbash: ...

Again, social media (youtube/twitter/facebookV/k) FWIW is *not* irrefutable proof. You and Kiev may want everyone to believe so, I do not.

Quote
...Oh so because nothing to say on one matter lets bring completely different one in.  :wallbash: ...

LOL. No, this was only ONE OF the many claims and accusations void of any irrefutable evidence. Youtubes, twitter, etc...does not count.

Quote
...Lets do so, you post what exactly word to word Poroshenko claimed and then we discuss that matter, instead of writing 'net expertise' nonsense which has no value or much in comment with reality....

Come again. I didn't understand this part.

Quote
...EDIT: by the way NATO officials confirmed Russia is supplying tanks, artillery, etc to separatists....

Where's their evidence? They've been saying this since this conflict began, and was repeatedly asked by reporters why they haven't ben able to provide proofs that this is in fact happening.

The US State Department also condemned the *mortar attack* by the separatist when they tried to flee the city, which the rebels knew nothing about, only to say a day later that they didn't have actual evidence other than what the Ukrainian government told them so. LOL.

>><<
QUESTION: Okay. Were you – yesterday, you had – you condemned the attack on this IDP convoy --
MS. HARF: Yes.
QUESTION: -- that you said – you added that you didn’t know or that you didn’t have any confirmation as to who did it. I’m wondering if you have gotten any clarity.
MS. HARF: We do not have any more clarity on that today. I again will strongly condemn it, and we’re not in a position to confirm details of this alleged incident. I know the Ukrainian Government and military spokespersons – I will use the non-sexist term – have given briefings on the incident, including updates on efforts to recover bodies. But I can’t independently confirm the details about anything related to the incident.
QUESTION: Can you confirm that it did happen?
QUESTION: Well, did it happen?
QUESTION: Yeah.
MS. HARF: Hello.
QUESTION: How are you?
QUESTION: (Inaudible) whether or not it happened --
QUESTION: You just called – yesterday --
MS. HARF: Yes.
QUESTION: -- your comments were – you condemned the shelling and rocketing of this convoy.
MS. HARF: Yes.
QUESTION: Today, you’re saying that you would condemn this --
MS. HARF: I don’t have reason to believe it didn’t. I just – we can’t confirm the details, many of which have been out there in the press about what happened specifically.
QUESTION: Well, but you referred to it as an alleged incident just now. Does that mean that you think that --
MS. HARF: I think this is what I said yesterday, but we can double-check.
QUESTION: No.
MS. HARF: Maybe it’s not.
QUESTION: No, no. You didn’t say it was alleged.
MS. HARF: Alleged? Okay.
QUESTION: Your – are you certain that it happened?
MS. HARF: We have no indication to believe it didn’t.
QUESTION: Well --
MS. HARF: But I can’t confirm the details surrounding --
QUESTION: I’m just curious as to why you went – why it’s now an alleged incident.
MS. HARF: Let me check with our folks. And if I didn’t say it yesterday, that may have just been an oversight. We are in the same place we were yesterday. We’ve seen the reports. The Ukrainian Government has put out quite a number of details about what they say happened. We don’t have reason to believe they didn’t. We just can’t independently confirm them.


http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/08/230741.htm#UKRAINE (http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2014/08/230741.htm#UKRAINE)


MissA, US State Department Press Briefings is a daily briefing given to reporters for information relating to current global events. They gather information from respective government and official sources the world over, including but not limited to, intelligence, respective countries' government officials and other means of acquiring information they feel is worthwhile to share...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2014, 04:05:19 PM

MissA, US State Department Press Briefings is a daily briefing given to reporters for information relating to current global events. They gather information from respective government and official sources the world over, including but not limited to, intelligence, respective countries' government officials and other means of acquiring information they feel is worthwhile to share...


At least someone is trusting what our government is saying.  ;D


So far, many don't believe one iota what they say. That is until it can prove their point.


Hat cha cha.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 22, 2014, 04:29:52 PM
Today, the Russian Ambassador to the United Nations categorically denied that there are any Russian troops in Ukraine or that Russia is supplying weapons to the "separatists."


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Rusambassadortoun_zpsbeaf8424.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 22, 2014, 08:19:33 PM

Sound?  You can 'hear' me?  What big ears you have!




(http://fc02.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/078/e/6/50_chibis_disney___dumbo_by_princekido-d3bypvq.jpg)


Fathertime!

More insults?  Ohhhh yes please!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 22, 2014, 08:44:44 PM
Again, social media (youtube/twitter/facebookV/k) FWIW is *not* irrefutable proof. You and Kiev may want everyone to believe so, I do not.

I did not provide link to social media, youtube, twitter or facebok.


Come again. I didn't understand this part.

Post Poroshenko's exact words as he said.

Where's their evidence? They've been saying this since this conflict began, and was repeatedly asked by reporters why they haven't ben able to provide proofs that this is in fact happening.


Quote
We have also seen transfers of large quantities of advanced weapons, including tanks, armoured personnel carriers, and artillery to separatist groups in Eastern Ukraine.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_112089.htm

Or the only valid evidence in your eyes is Putin's admission 'grasshoppers are not only green but also russian'?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 22, 2014, 11:27:46 PM
Oh, another social media anecdotal *proof* in a country widely known to be corrupt.

Poroshenko claimed the army completely destroyed a Russian heavy artillery convoy, but no one can seem to find remnants of the destroyed convoy. It's been reported that supplies keep coming from Russia, but even with the US intelligence on the ground, in the air, OSCE monitors, not the UN monitors, etc...no one from any of these entities can come forth and present hard irrefutable evidences other than youtube/twitter feeds conveniently provided for by Kiev.

Yup, there sure is a whole lot of *proofs* out there in the internet, isn't it?


Those individuals in missA's link are working class, ordinary citizens and no, from what they are saying it is not a set up, they are not being forced, or paid, to say anything. 


As for NATO -
Quote

Hours after the Russian convoy entered without permission Friday, NATO announced that Russian artillery units were firing on Ukrainian forces inside Ukraine.

Russian artillery support has been “employed against Ukrainian armed forces,” NATO said in a statement.

“Moreover, NATO is observing an alarming build-up of Russian ground and air forces in the vicinity of Ukraine,” the statement reads.

Since mid-August, NATO observers have noted “major escalation in Russian military involvement” in the region, including the use of Russian troops.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/22/fed-up-with-waiting-for-permission-russia-sends-aid-trucks-into-ukraine-in-what-kyiv-calls-a-direct-invasion/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/22/fed-up-with-waiting-for-permission-russia-sends-aid-trucks-into-ukraine-in-what-kyiv-calls-a-direct-invasion/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 23, 2014, 06:11:59 AM
(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvrGB2qCAAA620w.jpg)

Picture of Russian Tank destroyed in Illovaysk

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bvqwk-3IIAAqXNg.jpg)

Out of one of the tanks, one of young Russian tankist's Russian Internal Passport. 

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BvqEkkHCEAA3Fsj.jpg)

Picture of two 'separatists' - one with GRU markings on his uniform (he probably sewed those on to confuse the press  ::) )

Then there are the eight paratroopers from the 76th Division from Pskov injured (critically) in one of the area hospitals in Lugansk.  Must be that they came across the border to seek better medical care than they could receive in Russia.  (Why else would they be in Ukraine?)

It took me less than three minutes of looking on the internet to obtain pictures.  None were from Social Networks.

My problem with GQ's assertions are that they are intellectually lazy.  I read both sides of the conflict.  The US intelligence community is intentionally staying out of providing proofs.  Now, why do you think that might be?  Come on, GQ.  You can figure this out.  It doesn't take too much of a level of intelligence to understand why the US intelligence community remains 'hands off'.

Reading that ID card above, I am left wondering what Ilya's family would say if they were interviewed:  Whether they would say he came all the way to Ukraine as part of the Russian military and then just volunteered to go across the border and get killed in his tank? 

Russia owes it to their soldiers that are dying to admit that they are fighting.  Young Ilya died a horrible death and Russia disowns him. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 23, 2014, 07:11:52 AM

This is a great post

Russia owes it to their soldiers that are dying to admit that they are fighting.  Young Ilya died a horrible death and Russia disowns him.

Russia the Soviets have been doing this for years . . . .

(http://ib.frath.net/w/images/6/60/Vlasov.jpg)

Another military tradition
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 23, 2014, 08:47:07 AM
I did not provide link to social media, youtube, twitter or facebok....

You sure you don't want to make sure of this first? It's only a few posts upthread.


Quote
Post Poroshenko's exact words as he said.

He said, "GQ is right. You can Google this easily enough yourself"


Quote
..http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_112089.htm

Or the only valid evidence in your eyes is Putin's admission 'grasshoppers are not only green but also russian'?

Oh look! Another NATO sighting report! They sure can *see* everything, no? I wish someone else should borrow their binoculars now and then though.



Those individuals in missA's link are working class, ordinary citizens and no, from what they are saying it is not a set up, they are not being forced, or paid, to say anything....

 Sure.

It's an honest testimony because a) he used to be your neighbor; b) they're Ukrainian and they're in Ukraine; c) ordinary people don't lie in Ukraine; and most importantly; d) it's on YouTube.

It must be real.  :rolleyes:

Quote
As for NATO -
[/size]
http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/22/fed-up-with-waiting-for-permission-russia-sends-aid-trucks-into-ukraine-in-what-kyiv-calls-a-direct-invasion/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/22/fed-up-with-waiting-for-permission-russia-sends-aid-trucks-into-ukraine-in-what-kyiv-calls-a-direct-invasion/)


Dang! Another NATO sighting/proclamation!!! Surprise, surprise.

It's amazing how these guys are everywhere in a place they're not supposed to be in, errr wait...that didn't sound right, did it?

....It took me less than three minutes of looking on the internet to obtain pictures.  None were from Social Networks....

LOL. Pictures of what exactly and in what context? I can probably do the same thing showing a Russian tank beside 2 elephants fcoking in the Arctic.

Anyway, I bet it also took you that long to say there are guards with tanks and machine guns along the border of Transnistria like you did on this thread.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17489.msg373721#msg373721

Quote
...My problem with GQ's assertions are that they are intellectually lazy.  I read both sides of the conflict.  The US intelligence community is intentionally staying out of providing proofs.  Now, why do you think that might be?  Come on, GQ.  You can figure this out.  It doesn't take too much of a level of intelligence to understand why the US intelligence community remains 'hands off'....

Let me get this straight. They make rampant accusations, but when asked to provide evidence to support their accusations, it is *quite understandable* why they shouldn't? LMAO. This is likely the reason why they declassified *Digital Globe's satelitte images* as proof, right? If they cannot provide any evidence for what they accuse others of, then why even accuse anyone to begin with?

That's about as *intellectually lazy* as someone arguing ferociously with someone as though he's an authority over the subject, including speaking for thousands of people he doesn't know; over a *word* in his native language he didn't knew the definition of all along.

Then to make matters even sillier, once called on it, he immediately sends a PM to that someone admitting getting blown out to bits for that silliness to save face, but at the same time tries to maintain the persona on a public forum. Then, pulls a Ferguson and cries out seeking justice and pity...LMAO!

Do you know someone like that, jone?

Dude. You're probably the biggest wazoo I know. I am not surprised you're just a SoCal wannabe. We aren't all from Wisconsin, you know.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 23, 2014, 09:44:41 AM
This is the Russia they are defending:

(http://gdb.rferl.org/19494915-5E93-45E7-85C3-A647D2AE15EC_mw1024_s_n.jpg)

Anti-Putin Activist Nasibov before the attacks

http://www.rferl.org/content/azerbaijan-attack-rights-activist-nasibov/26545123.html


Attacked in 2009

(http://humanrightshouse.org/files/images/6019-Ilgar%2520attacked%2520photo.jpeg)

Attacked in 2014
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-cLxFYxBVGF4/U_hfu_tfqnI/AAAAAAAAD7w/85fySz2eBZc/s1600/Ilgar-Nasibov-636x253.jpg)

(http://gdb.rferl.org/370C6206-C253-4E57-BD27-9F20951D8FFD_cx0_cy21_cw0_w300_r1_s.jpg)


Tell us again how Putin and Russia are innocent.  It ain't propaganda if its the truth.  Stop lying.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 23, 2014, 10:28:49 AM
Quote
Sure. It's an honest testimony because a) he used to be your neighbor; b) they're Ukrainian and they're in Ukraine; c) ordinary people don't lie in Ukraine; and most importantly; d) it's on YouTube.It must be real. 



The link was not from youtube.  We don't know if the inidviduals are Ukrainian or Russian.  All we know is, they are from the region, evident from their accents.  The manner in which they speak tells me it is not rehearsed/staged, but real.  It has nothing to do with them being from Ukraine.
Quote
Dang! Another NATO sighting/proclamation!!! Surprise, surprise. It's amazing how these guys are everywhere in a place they're not supposed to be in, errr wait...that didn't sound right, did it?



NATO has always stated it is monitoring the situation, and has since Russia started amassing troops on Ukraine's borders.  IIRC (I do, I am just being polite), Putin claimed there were no Russian forces in Crimea.  After the illegal annexation of the region, he admitted Russian troops had indeed been dispatched there. 


NATO has access to extensive sophisticated satellite imagery.  There is no need for them to have anyone on the ground to know what is going on in the region.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 23, 2014, 12:03:18 PM
Human intelligence is an important component in any intelligence gathering operation
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 23, 2014, 12:05:29 PM
For the Putin apologists:

Here is what most of the world thinks about the conflict in Ukraine:

1- Russia and Putin are fomenting the rebellion in eastern Ukraine. There's LONG list of facts to come to that conclusion. When the Kremlin says they are not supplying the rebels with weapons and personnel/mercenaries, it comes across as a huge lie. This is how most of the world sees it. Putin can be accurately described as a 'liar'. Do we need to post a list of his lies?
2- Thousands of deaths could have been prevented, had Putin made good on his promise to help end the conflict. Most of the world sees it this way.
3- Comparing the situation in Iraq with the conflict in Ukraine is completely ridiculous. It's laughable. One of the few humorous ideas about Russia's war in Ukraine. 

There are two strategies for dealing with these tragic conflicts. A strategy of stopping the deaths or promoting the deaths for political and economic benefits. In Ukraine you have Putin who is interested in political and economic gains. For example, his humanitarian convoy was mostly empty, but now removing manufacturing equipment from Ukraine. The reason for the convoy. Putin also has a warped fantasy about establishing New Russia. So this fantasy is resulting in thousands of deaths, and apparently he does not care so much for non-Russian speakers or those who might be 'okay' with them. ...He's a chauvinist about his particular ethnicity.

The separatists do not even know what kind of Republics they want in Donetsk and Luhansk. What are they willing to die for? Some maudlin fantasy about 'fascists' in the West??? Okay, we know that vision of reality is FAR off. Go to Lviv or even Kharkiv and look at the horrors of fascism. For some reason those horrors are not posted on youtube. On the other hand, we see the blatant atrocities of the separatists in the east. Presidential elections are NOT allowed there, but they're against fascism. Oh. Okay. And they have lots of hostages. They killed  Lithuania’s Mykola Zelenec. Why? Was he a non-Russian speaker? Moscow's propaganda machine is losing. The truth becomes apparent. The lies become apparent. When a separatist steals a car in Luhansk, the locals see the truth. The war is just one huge BAD public relations campaign for Putin and Russia. Bad for Russia, because we see a lack of compassion, a lack of real humanitarian aid. The trucks were for removing equipment from Ukraine. Oh. Thanks!
The people who do not care how this conflict resolves are uncaring folks, in their own little world, enjoying their comfy sofa, and martini, taking their peace for granted.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 23, 2014, 12:10:44 PM
That's about as *intellectually lazy* as someone arguing ferociously with someone as though he's an authority over the subject, including speaking for thousands of people he doesn't know; over a *word* in his native language he didn't knew the definition of all along.

Then to make matters even sillier, once called on it, he immediately sends a PM to that someone admitting getting blown out to bits for that silliness to save face, but at the same time tries to maintain the persona on a public forum. Then, pulls a Ferguson and cries out seeking justice and pity...LMAO!

Do you know someone like that, jone?

Dude. You're probably the biggest wazoo I know. I am not surprised you're just a SoCal wannabe. We aren't all from Wisconsin, you know.

Looks like I touched a nerve.  After all, you're nothing but a transplant as well.  Moreover, you wrap yourself in the flag about how wonderful veterans are and all you can do is tell everyone that the fighting in Ukraine, of which you claim to be an expert, has nothing to do with young Russians and Ukrainians dying. 

The simple fact is that you never served your country, either in the Phillipines or in the United States, by your own admission so you would have absolutely no clue of the human drama playing out.  You are a guy who sits at your computer for many hours.  We wonder whether such activities make up for not having anything to do at home.

While I may be a SoCal wannabe, at least my children grew up here and are successful.  After all, isn't the next generation what it's all about?  That's what the people in Ukraine believe.  It is why they are fighting to move to a Western European society, similar to that which many of the countries of Eastern Europe have done before them.  Your ideas that had the country waited until elections there would have been no bloodshed is ridiculous armchair quarterbacking given the nature of the past four elections in Ukraine.  The (failed) Orange revolution happened because of a tainted election.  As Putin told Condi Rice, "Ukraine is ours".  Russia would never allow Ukraine to leave its sphere of influence without a fight. 

The old KGB Agent, Putin, is scared sh&tless that the same revolution that happened in Kyiv will happen in Russia.  If, in ten years time (and probably sooner now that Ukraine is polarized and the West is sympathetic) Ukraine's standard of living bounces to a new, never before seen level, such will put the final nail in the coffin or Russian hegemony.   His only hope on maintaining power will come with the increased controlling of his population.

From an overall perspective, which we all view, your arguments that the US is behind all of the activity in Ukraine and that the government is simply a puppet is categorically wrong.  The US is taking a 'hands off' approach to this crisis.  The only true thing that can be said of US involvement is that western society has shown other Eastern European countries that, with their own resources, they can create a much better standard of living for their people.  This is the beacon that attracts most of my friends in Ukraine.  GQ, how many people do you regularly confer with there?  I was just curious.

But this theory that the people actually want a Western style government doesn't agree with the 'spin' you want to create.  So, yes, intellectual laziness (or perhaps dishonesty). 

For the rest of us, we are engaged with a world where I spent my summer last year and have good friends and family.  Some of whom have family members that are serving and some that are dying.  I don't have too much good to say for someone who calls native Ukrainians disingenuous because their views don't coincide with this world of conspiracy you've created in your mind.

Now, I once again leave the forum to you for a couple of days as we have plans for the weekend. 

Good luck GQ.

You face me, you tower over me with your intellectual genius.  But you take on two women of Ukrainian descent and they will eat you alive.  As they should.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on August 23, 2014, 12:32:40 PM
Hmmmmm.....interesting post.
Now that certainly explains a few things about our mercurial friend...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 23, 2014, 12:55:10 PM
The US is as much invested in Ukraine as Russia. Its up to you to determine how much that is.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 23, 2014, 01:33:05 PM
You sure you don't want to make sure of this first? It's only a few posts upthread.

Yes, I am sure

He said, "GQ is right. You can Google this easily enough yourself"

No, he said: 'GQ is have no idea what he is talking about when he talks about Ukraine. He just talks because he likes to talk'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 23, 2014, 01:39:40 PM
...In Ukraine you have Putin who is interested in political and economic gains. For example, his humanitarian convoy was mostly empty, but now removing manufacturing equipment from Ukraine. The reason for the convoy...

Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 23, 2014, 01:59:55 PM
Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

Not all trucks were full, some had very small load in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28799627
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/16/world/europe/some-russian-aid-trucks-are-nearly-empty-reporters-find.html

Earlier in news today came the following:

Quote
Infocenter spokesman for National Security Council Andrei Lysenko reported that Russians taking out on trucks that were in the "humanitarian convoy"radars from the factory "Topaz" and ammunition from Lugansk factory.

"According to current information, the trucks that entered in the territory (Ukraine) in the guise of "humanitarian convoy" loaded equipment from production factory "Topaz", which produces the most advanced radars such as "Kolchuga" and equipment from Lugansk plant, which produced ammunition for firearms, "- said Lysenko on brief today.
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?rosiyani_vivozyat_na_vantazhivkah_gumkonvoyu_naboyi_i_tehniku_z_ukrayinski h_zavodiv__rnbo&objectId=477459 (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?rosiyani_vivozyat_na_vantazhivkah_gumkonvoyu_naboyi_i_tehniku_z_ukrayinskih_zavodiv__rnbo&objectId=477459)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 23, 2014, 02:06:03 PM
Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

Not all trucks were full, some had very small load in.

Sorry - perhaps I should rephrase that as "every truck that the reporters inspected was full of supplies."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 23, 2014, 02:11:18 PM
I edited and added to link to BBC video, you can see some trucks are almost empty.

BBC was not only one who reported this, many other journalists from number of countries reported same.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 23, 2014, 02:21:12 PM
What's REALLY interesting here is that the BBC report which I saw (on our main television news) appears to have been an edited version of the one linked by you - edited to remove the references to the "almost empty" trucks!

We obviously have a Russian Putin sympathiser determining what we see!  :devil:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 23, 2014, 04:20:17 PM
Looks like I touched a nerve.  After all, you're nothing but a transplant as well.  Moreover, you wrap yourself in the flag about how wonderful veterans are and all you can do is tell everyone that the fighting in Ukraine, of which you claim to be an expert, has nothing to do with young Russians and Ukrainians dying. 

The simple fact is that you never served your country, either in the Phillipines or in the United States, by your own admission so you would have absolutely no clue of the human drama playing out.  You are a guy who sits at your computer for many hours.  We wonder whether such activities make up for not having anything to do at home.

While I may be a SoCal wannabe, at least my children grew up here and are successful.  After all, isn't the next generation what it's all about?  That's what the people in Ukraine believe.  It is why they are fighting to move to a Western European society, similar to that which many of the countries of Eastern Europe have done before them.  Your ideas that had the country waited until elections there would have been no bloodshed is ridiculous armchair quarterbacking given the nature of the past four elections in Ukraine.  The (failed) Orange revolution happened because of a tainted election.  As Putin told Condi Rice, "Ukraine is ours".  Russia would never allow Ukraine to leave its sphere of influence without a fight. 

The old KGB Agent, Putin, is scared sh&tless that the same revolution that happened in Kyiv will happen in Russia.  If, in ten years time (and probably sooner now that Ukraine is polarized and the West is sympathetic) Ukraine's standard of living bounces to a new, never before seen level, such will put the final nail in the coffin or Russian hegemony.   His only hope on maintaining power will come with the increased controlling of his population.

From an overall perspective, which we all view, your arguments that the US is behind all of the activity in Ukraine and that the government is simply a puppet is categorically wrong.  The US is taking a 'hands off' approach to this crisis.  The only true thing that can be said of US involvement is that western society has shown other Eastern European countries that, with their own resources, they can create a much better standard of living for their people.  This is the beacon that attracts most of my friends in Ukraine.  GQ, how many people do you regularly confer with there?  I was just curious.

But this theory that the people actually want a Western style government doesn't agree with the 'spin' you want to create.  So, yes, intellectual laziness (or perhaps dishonesty). 

For the rest of us, we are engaged with a world where I spent my summer last year and have good friends and family.  Some of whom have family members that are serving and some that are dying.  I don't have too much good to say for someone who calls native Ukrainians disingenuous because their views don't coincide with this world of conspiracy you've created in your mind.

Now, I once again leave the forum to you for a couple of days as we have plans for the weekend. 

Good luck GQ.

You face me, you tower over me with your intellectual genius.  But you take on two women of Ukrainian descent and they will eat you alive.  As they should.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2JiKu_wpIU

The US is as much invested in Ukraine as Russia. Its up to you to determine how much that is.

How exactly?  We do about 200 B in trade NOW with Ukraine and we have a trade surplus.  A coup we cheerled not engineered or underwrote has succeeded and we defend that revolution by sending them night vision googles and flak jackets?

Meanwhile our patron saint has KILLED 193 of your own citizens and you parrot his talking points BUT YET we are the strange ones.

(http://i3.ytimg.com/vi/N6VFRBTvB6Y/0.jpg)

this is a picture of a Filipina killed on MH 17.

(http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/8a/a7/8aa7cc5b3fefcdba2916013eedb5801c.png?itok=6XM8G8Dq)

This is a picture of a woman who picked over the loot to get some mascara from the dead victims.

Maybe Ukraine is not the only place, Putin considers is not a real country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 23, 2014, 04:29:06 PM
Are you sure about that, Photo Guy?  I've seen reports from the BBC (and other media) showing the media inspecting the convoy, being told to "look in any truck you like," and finding every truck full of supplies (not just "water and salt" as quoted above).  Did they empty out the trucks after the reporters and camera crews had left?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcWzAfgMPBM
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on August 23, 2014, 09:12:29 PM
He just talks because he likes to talk'

+1

Although technically to be correct, the word 'talk' should be replaced with the phrase 'wear out a keyboard'.
BTW why hasn't our friend posted a response already, usually he is a lot quicker than that. Phone line down at his home?
Or maybe jone's post really did hit a raw nerve with our friend?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 23, 2014, 09:48:18 PM
Maybe it is because he has been routed by our own Judith.  Maybe he has been sanctioned for his incessant and annoying insults.  I know this, I wouldn't want to be routed by MissA
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 24, 2014, 02:15:20 AM
Perhaps read the links of Boethius and you will know it has not just started.
The US is invested in Ukraine as much as Russia. You can determine how much or how little.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 24, 2014, 08:29:37 AM
Perhaps read the links of Boethius and you will know it has not just started.
The US is invested in Ukraine as much as Russia. You can determine how much or how little.

Can you cite those statistics or are you making that up as well?

(http://www.onetainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/children-636x336.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 24, 2014, 08:37:59 AM
The US is as much invested in Ukraine as Russia. Its up to you to determine how much that is.
We won't know for sure how invested the USA is invested in Ukraine...but it is clear that we are going to try to encourage Ukraine to rebel (and die) as much as possible to further our own agenda.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 24, 2014, 08:41:00 AM
We won't know for sure how invested the USA is invested in Ukraine...
Fathertime!

some people are really LAZY

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine

Quote
U.S. foreign direct investment (FDI) in Ukraine (stock) was $840 million in 2012, up 21.7% from 2011.


It's nothing.  There's more direct investment in Harris County, Texas by Texans than Americans in Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 24, 2014, 08:46:45 AM
some people are really LAZY

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine

It's nothing.  There's more direct investment in Harris County, Texas by Texans than Americans in Ukraine.
Thank you for again demonstration how foolish you can be.  There is much more to investment than that silly link.  I shouldn't expect you to get that fully, given your biases and singular viewpoint.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 24, 2014, 08:49:20 AM
Thank you for again demonstration how foolish you can be.  There is much more to investment than that silly link.  I shouldn't expect you to get that fully, given your biases and singular viewpoint.

Fathertime!

Show us the win win!

(http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/dead-fat-nazi.jpeg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 24, 2014, 08:58:04 AM
Show us the win win!

(http://www.dailystormer.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/dead-fat-nazi.jpeg)

I'd rather you continue to perpetuate that phrase a few dozen more times.  I continue to hold the two countries will come to an agreement. The remaining questions are when and at what cost. When this happens you will be angry as there will be less for you to demonize and blame Russia for, which has always been YOUR top priority rather than a real solution.

Fathertime!

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 24, 2014, 09:18:30 AM
some people are really LAZY

http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine (http://www.ustr.gov/countries-regions/europe-middle-east/russia-and-eurasia/ukraine)

It's nothing.  There's more direct investment in Harris County, Texas by Texans than Americans in Ukraine.
That logically means there is also no involvment of Russia in Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 24, 2014, 09:34:29 AM
We won't know for sure how invested the USA is invested in Ukraine...but it is clear that we are going to try to encourage Ukraine to rebel (and die) as much as possible to further our own agenda.

Fathertime!

Rebel? Who are you to say that? Rebelling from who?
Ukrainians has as much right as any other nation to be free and defend their land.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 24, 2014, 09:39:24 AM
Rebel? Who are you to say that? Rebelling from who?
Ukrainians has as much right as any other nation to be free and defend their land.
Except for those in the East.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 24, 2014, 09:45:28 AM
Except for those in the East.

You mean Russian tourists or Russian army?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 24, 2014, 09:58:58 AM
You mean Russian tourists or Russian army?
You mean Ukrainians are so weak as people that a hand ful of tourists can keep them hostage for months?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 24, 2014, 10:17:59 AM
You mean Ukrainians are so weak as people that a hand ful of tourists can keep them hostage for months?

You mean russians are so vile as people that they have no shame to hide behind children and women?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHgnJy7ECb8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHgnJy7ECb8)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 24, 2014, 10:22:05 AM
You mean russians are so vile as people that they have no shame to hide behind children and women?




You should know, you lived with them.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 24, 2014, 10:41:36 AM
You mean Ukrainians are so weak as people that a hand ful of tourists can keep them hostage for months?


Unless an army wants to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents, then yes, terrorists do have an upper hand when they fight from civilian areas.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 24, 2014, 10:51:56 AM
Rebel? Who are you to say that? Rebelling from who?
Ukrainians has as much right as any other nation to be free and defend their land.

If you are going to ask who I am then  exactly who are YOU?  So what if you are from  the area and have a brother fighting. 

That said, linguistically I used the wrong word in 'rebel'. The sentiment is the USA is delighted  and encouraging Ukrainians to RESIST.  It doesn't matter if they die doing it, even if there could be a better way to solve the crisis. Whatever and whomever we can use to bloody Russia is the longer term plan and where our real interest lies.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 24, 2014, 10:55:12 AM
You should know, you lived with them.

Shadow, have no idea how you came to such conclusion but I can assure you I have never lived with Igor Girkin (Strelkov), Igor Bezler, Alexander Borodai, Vladimir Antyufeyev, or any other Russian tourist rebel fighting on East of Ukraine and neither I lived with any of Kremlin schizophrenics who encourages russian tourists to hide behind Ukrainian children and women.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 24, 2014, 11:29:11 AM

If you are going to ask who I am then  exactly who are YOU?  So what if you are from  the area and have a brother fighting. 

That said, linguistically I used the wrong word in 'rebel'. The sentiment is the USA is delighted  and encouraging Ukrainians to RESIST.  It doesn't matter if they die doing it, even if there could be a better way to solve the crisis. Whatever and whomever we can use to bloody Russia is the longer term plan and where our real interest lies.

Fathertime!

And RESIST is better than REBEL? How?  Resist who? Come on, complete the sentence! RESIST Russian occupation? REBEL Russian dictator?

There is no better way to solve the crisis at this moment. Putin is not prepared to let Ukraine go and Ukrainians not prepared to be under Russia once again. Bullet in schizophrenic's forehead will be helpful to solve crisis.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 24, 2014, 11:49:17 AM
That logically means there is also no involvment of Russia in Ukraine.

You talk logic?   :popcorn:

(http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/76337000/jpg/_76337761_76337759.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 24, 2014, 07:37:21 PM
And RESIST is better than REBEL? How?  Resist who? Come on, complete the sentence! RESIST Russian occupation? REBEL Russian dictator?
 .


Who said RESIST was BETTER than REBEL?   I think it is a more accurate way of describing what is happening.    Resist who?  The Russians and the Ukraianians that support the separatist movement. ...who else?




There is no better way to solve the crisis at this moment. Putin is not prepared to let Ukraine go and Ukrainians not prepared to be under Russia once again. Bullet in schizophrenic's forehead will be helpful to solve crisis.


Well I'd say it is more likely that the bullet will wind up in the head of the leader of Ukraine, than Russia's leader... 




Perhaps you think the fighting is the best way, and maybe it is...but it is going to be bloody and possibly never ending so it would seem negotiating something that works for both countries would be better....and if it still truly isn't possible then the alternatives narrow....of course it is up to Ukrainian representatives to decide.


Fathertime!   

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 24, 2014, 08:21:27 PM
Perhaps you think the fighting is the best way, and maybe it is.



Fighting is probably the only way this thing gets settled. Putin pretends to talk peace and wants to negotiate but Putin will only allow peace if the Ukrainian government gives the east so much autonomy Putin can rig the election and claim the east as his own. Why is Putin involved in any peace talks? Because the smart people know he's in charge of the rebels in Ukraine. Things can end or escalate on his word.


How can Ukraine negotiate with Putin who stole a piece of their land already and are sending in military hardware to kill their troops? How many people here can talk nicely to someone who steals a piece of their property and smile at the negotiating table knowing that person wants to steal more property?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 24, 2014, 08:50:18 PM
A truce and a peace treaty are two different things.  Why not get a truce?  Time is on Ukraine's side not Russia's.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 24, 2014, 09:05:00 PM
Why not get a truce? 


Does Putin want a truce or even peace with Ukraine remaining intact? I don't think so.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 24, 2014, 10:15:31 PM
The link was not from youtube.  We don't know if the inidviduals are Ukrainian or Russian.  All we know is, they are from the region, evident from their accents.  The manner in which they speak tells me it is not rehearsed/staged, but real.  It has nothing to do with them being from Ukraine....

LOL! Seriously now Boethius. I bet you can also lay an ear against any ground and be able to tell me the full names of the last 100 folks that walked past it, won't you? You should be on the Jimmy Kimmel show.

You believed Obama WAS the TRUTH way back in 2008 that you even bought his book...somehow now you'll tell me you can 'trust' a stranger on YouTube by the way he speaks? C'mon. I'm neither a loser (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16713.0), a MOBer (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17146.0) or a dolt from Wisconsin.


Quote
...NATO has always stated it is monitoring the situation, and has since Russia started amassing troops on Ukraine's borders.  IIRC (I do, I am just being polite), Putin claimed there were no Russian forces in Crimea.  After the illegal annexation of the region, he admitted Russian troops had indeed been dispatched there....

NATO, yeah...

Yes. All 22,000 of them. Silly of Putin to deny that. But then again, sillier still are folks who's been buying into the narrative, too. 

Quote
...NATO has access to extensive sophisticated satellite imagery.  There is no need for them to have anyone on the ground to know what is going on in the region.[/font]

LOL. Sophisticated satellite images? You don't mean the one they bought from Digital Globe now, do you? Because unless the CIA or NATO came over to your home to show them to you, Digital Globe's imagery had been the only one made available so far.

Look, NATO have *zero* business in this conflict. Zip, Nada, Zilch...at least not yet. *Interest* is a whole other matter.

After all, Hillary had been trying to make this happen since back in 2009 (that we now about) Likely even further back when Slick was still in Monica's Oval and we were too busy playing 'kill-a-Serb' in Yugoslavia) roughly the same time she was handing Lavrov that ridiculous red buttoned 'Reset' fiasco. NATO membership was reinforced even more strongly by what happened in Georgia the prior year. Except in 2009 they were hoping to get ride through Tymoshenko's presidential run of 2010.

Why do you think her prison release was an integral component in the AA's condition, which was the major block as to why Yanu didn't immediately inked the deal despite literally already agreeing to it?

Over 2,000 dead, thousands injured/wounded, hundreds of thousand displaced, cities damaged and blown and you folks still follow the narrative.

From December 2009, 1:15 PM, Washington DC

SECURITY ASSURANCES AND NATO

7. (C) Secretary Clinton reiterated that the United States stood behind the Budapest Memorandum security assurances and that these assurances had not changed with the expiration of the START Treaty.  She emphasized that the United States envisioned multiple pathways to NATO membership.  The United States, however, had received mixed messages from Ukraine during its presidential campaign, and Ukraine's friends wondered whether Ukrainians really wanted NATO membership.  The United States continued to support Ukraine's eventual membership in NATO, but the Secretary reminded Poroshenko that all aspirants must meet NATO standards. She noted that during the December 3 NATO-Ukraine Commission meeting, Allies commended Ukraine on the finalization of its first Annual National Program and urged Ukraine to make further progress through its 2010 program.
 
8. (C) Poroshenko was pleased by the U.S.-Russia statement reaffirming the Budapest Memorandum security assurances.  He proposed bilateral consultations to establish new security "guarantees" for Ukraine, saying such consultations were needed to avoid an incident similar to the Russia-Georgia war.  Poroshenko lamented that Montenegro and Bosnia, which had not voluntarily given up nuclear weapons, were on their way to NATO membership.  Ukraine felt that NATO had demanded greater reforms from it than from other countries.  He claimed that both Prime Minister Tymoshenko and opposition leader Yanukovych had agreed to avoid raising NATO in their campaigns....


ENERGY SECURITY

9. (C) Poroshenko stated it was vital that the EU invite Ukraine to join the European Energy Community at the December 18 ministerial in Zagreb.  The Secretary agreed that energy security was essential.  Ambassador Morningstar said that he had actively lobbied for Ukraine's inclusion in the Energy Community and would be happy to make another approach to the EU.  (Morningstar later spoke with European Commission Pielbalgs to voice continued support for Ukrainian membership.)  Morningstar noted that the EU was considering a compromise agreement that would involve a two-step approach to Ukraine's membership. 

He noted some progress on energy issues, e.g., progress with Russia on gas issues at Yalta, but emphasized that this was short-
term; what was needed was long-term reform.  The United States was ready and willing to help Ukraine modernize its gas sector, increase energy efficiency and improve the investment climate, if Kyiv's commitment was there. The Secretary stressed that Ukraine could boost its independence and sovereignty by increasing its energy independence.



We don't have a hand in this illegal government overthrow, you say? Well, WE apparently, will "never let a good crisis go to waste"
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 24, 2014, 10:29:27 PM
...blah, blah blah...
The simple fact is that you never served your country, either in the Phillipines or in the United States, by your own admission so you would have absolutely no clue of the human drama playing out.  You are a guy who sits at your computer for many hours.  We wonder whether such activities make up for not having anything to do at home....blah, blah

OY! The dramatics! I'm just quoting a portion I thought was worth my time to respond to your wazoo post...

First, an English & history lessons. The proper spelling is, *Philippines*, not 'Phillipines. The country was named after King Philip II of Azturias who later became King Philip II of Spain.

Secondly, this is how I served, and will continue to serve *my* country:

I am and had been chiefly responsible for, or had a hand in, or collaborated on the development, renovation and improvements of the following: hospitals, schools, public infrastructures i.e. utilities (water, sewer, storm drain systems, common trenches (gas, communication/cable/electrical), roads, highways/freeways, bridges, ports, landfills, reclamation systems for local, state and federal projects.

I had built industrial complexes, commercial complexes, residential communities, single-family homes, high-density / multi dwelling residential buildings, parks, golf courses, entertainment sites like Disneyland, Universal, Knotts, the Getty Museum..coastal developments and improvements i.e. seawalls, jetties, piers, ports....

I've done work in LAX, Sta. Monica Airport, Van Nuys Airport, & Ports of Long Beach. I've done *classified* work in various federal/military bases: 29 Palms, Camp Roberts, Vandenburg AF...

I've done work as far away as Daytona Beach Raceway Florida to Virginia's Banta Books to Oklahoma's Frito Lays and all over California.

What I haven't done is gone to a foreign country with the SOLE INTENT of killing/bombing/murdering/plunder/rape its men, women and children; solely on the virtue their politics had fallen out of favor with ours.

Your silly *generous attitude* theory is flat-out stupid. Why don't you tell me exactly HOW YOUR service benefited Iraq? Tell me how exactly *our* participation in the killing fields of millions benefited the citizens of Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam? Iran? The citizens of Yugoslavia? Colombia, El Salvador, Honduras, nations of Africa, Libya?....

Dude, you're much too dense to even remotely understand WHY we are perpetually at zones of conflict. When you peel off your fuzzy blinders one of these days and finally realize all these are actually nothing more than an overrated, modernized narrative, media falsely glorified COLONIALISM.

We control territories, we control commerce. ONE for you NINETEEN for me. I take your stuff, you buy my stuff. I hire your cheap labor, you buy my pricey label. You don't do as I say, I either slap you sanction to deprive your people, or just simply bomb the fcok out of you - policy.

So in the end, unlike you and super-size-it-with-extra-friesLT, I am much PROUDER in the way *I SERVE*, and continue to serve, my country...

 ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 24, 2014, 10:31:03 PM
Although technically to be correct, the word 'talk' should be replaced with the phrase 'wear out a keyboard'. BTW why hasn't our friend posted a response already, usually he is a lot quicker than that. Phone line down at his home? Or maybe jone's post really did hit a raw nerve with our friend?

Simple, because unlike the lot of you, I have a life to enjoy on weekends.

Ta-da!

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 24, 2014, 11:00:22 PM
Not all trucks were full, some had very small load in....

I can't understand why there's much ado about partially loaded trucks in this saga.

The total weight of the humanitarian goods supposed to total to 2,000 tons. If these trucks are anything like the semis we have here at home, it likely have the capacity to carry 20 tons/truck (fully loaded). 2,000 tons will mean a total of 100 FULLY LOADED trucks.

Now, if I was in charge of dispatching these trucks in a heavily conflicted zone, I would do as they did. Partially load the trucks, or even have an accompanying 'empty' trucks.

Why?

Consideration of the following: Time is of the essence. You need to get 'there' and be 'out' ASAP. A 'hot-zone'.

1. It'll be much easier to unload/load trucks in the event of break-downs. This was why they had a driver and a rider in the beginning.
2. In the event one or two, or more gets' hit by the fighting, intentionally or otherwise, you don't suffer 'mass' waste.
3. The destination is a 'city'. They don't have the luxury of a 'distribution warehouse' where they can unload everything in a lone central depot. The Kiev government either doesn't differentiate between hostile or civilians to begin with when they bomb the city, or are doing it on purpose like they did with the State Administration building not too long ago. So I doubt anyone can expect these civilians to be walking blocks and citywide fetching supplies of food, water and medicine.

Thus, many of the trucks likely various appointed/designated points of delivery in the city which could be 5 - 10 points of distribution.


Quote
...Earlier in news today came the following:
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?rosiyani_vivozyat_na_vantazhivkah_gumkonvoyu_naboyi_i_tehniku_z_ukrayinski h_zavodiv__rnbo&objectId=477459 (http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?rosiyani_vivozyat_na_vantazhivkah_gumkonvoyu_naboyi_i_tehniku_z_ukrayinskih_zavodiv__rnbo&objectId=477459)

MissA, I hope you understand the meaning of the word 'accuse'. Unless there is substantial and irrefutable evidence to support an accusation, you literally have *nothing*. The allegations is null and void.

IF, it turns out the Russians did in fact gathered *sensitive* military and security materials borne out of their business with Ukraine before, especially knowing who had been behind and in strong support of the coup, IMO, they are entitled to it.

As for 'accusation', the Kiev government accused the rebels of bombing the State Administration building that killed civilians not too long ago despite knowing full well they did it themselves.

Which begs the question, how do you like a government who would *lie* like that in their quest to start anew?

Do you even know your government were the ones who did it?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 25, 2014, 10:49:14 AM
I can't understand why there's much ado about partially loaded trucks in this saga.

....GQB's Saga....

(http://scontent-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/10646656_292365860947223_2574931825937217211_n.jpg?oh=e111aa86b1a5200d50bcb81db141a639&oe=54669593)

Do I have to explain anything else?


MissA, I hope you understand the meaning of the word 'accuse'.

Of course I do

IF, it turns out the Russians did in fact gathered *sensitive* military and security materials borne out of their business with Ukraine before, especially knowing who had been behind and in strong support of the coup, IMO, they are entitled to it.


Here you have lost me on 'gathered *sensitive* military and security materials'. I haven't posted anything about gathering materials, I posted about accusation of stealing factory equipment to manufacture certain military equipment. Since when Russia entitled to rob Ukrainian factories?
 
As for 'accusation', the Kiev government accused the rebels of bombing the State Administration building that killed civilians not too long ago despite knowing full well they did it themselves.

Which begs the question, how do you like a government who would *lie* like that in their quest to start anew?

Do you even know your government were the ones who did it?

Post more specific details about which State Administration building you are talking about and I will reply. It is impossible to give any answer to general statements as the one you did above.


By the way perhaps you also wold like to see this photo (hopefully you follow news enough to recognize face on this photo as well as able to understand where that photo is made)

(http://scontent-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpa1/v/t1.0-9/s526x395/10460129_705127269523601_9181522779173868637_n.jpg?oh=fc0ce38dbda0269d8788b0691c2e308b&oe=546407CA)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 25, 2014, 11:16:54 AM
LOL! Seriously now Boethius. I bet you can also lay an ear against any ground and be able to tell me the full names of the last 100 folks that walked past it, won't you? You should be on the Jimmy Kimmel show.

You believed Obama WAS the TRUTH way back in 2008 that you even bought his book...somehow now you'll tell me you can 'trust' a stranger on YouTube by the way he speaks? C'mon. I'm neither a loser (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16713.0), a MOBer (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17146.0) or a dolt from Wisconsin.


NATO, yeah...

Yes. All 22,000 of them. Silly of Putin to deny that. But then again, sillier still are folks who's been buying into the narrative, too. 

LOL. Sophisticated satellite images? You don't mean the one they bought from Digital Globe now, do you? Because unless the CIA or NATO came over to your home to show them to you, Digital Globe's imagery had been the only one made available so far.

Look, NATO have *zero* business in this conflict. Zip, Nada, Zilch...at least not yet. *Interest* is a whole other matter.

After all, Hillary had been trying to make this happen since back in 2009 (that we now about) Likely even further back when Slick was still in Monica's Oval and we were too busy playing 'kill-a-Serb' in Yugoslavia) roughly the same time she was handing Lavrov that ridiculous red buttoned 'Reset' fiasco. NATO membership was reinforced even more strongly by what happened in Georgia the prior year. Except in 2009 they were hoping to get ride through Tymoshenko's presidential run of 2010.

Why do you think her prison release was an integral component in the AA's condition, which was the major block as to why Yanu didn't immediately inked the deal despite literally already agreeing to it?

Over 2,000 dead, thousands injured/wounded, hundreds of thousand displaced, cities damaged and blown and you folks still follow the narrative.

From December 2009, 1:15 PM, Washington DC

SECURITY ASSURANCES AND NATO

7. (C) Secretary Clinton reiterated that the United States stood behind the Budapest Memorandum security assurances and that these assurances had not changed with the expiration of the START Treaty.  She emphasized that the United States envisioned multiple pathways to NATO membership.  The United States, however, had received mixed messages from Ukraine during its presidential campaign, and Ukraine's friends wondered whether Ukrainians really wanted NATO membership.  The United States continued to support Ukraine's eventual membership in NATO, but the Secretary reminded Poroshenko that all aspirants must meet NATO standards. She noted that during the December 3 NATO-Ukraine Commission meeting, Allies commended Ukraine on the finalization of its first Annual National Program and urged Ukraine to make further progress through its 2010 program.
 
8. (C) Poroshenko was pleased by the U.S.-Russia statement reaffirming the Budapest Memorandum security assurances.  He proposed bilateral consultations to establish new security "guarantees" for Ukraine, saying such consultations were needed to avoid an incident similar to the Russia-Georgia war.  Poroshenko lamented that Montenegro and Bosnia, which had not voluntarily given up nuclear weapons, were on their way to NATO membership.  Ukraine felt that NATO had demanded greater reforms from it than from other countries.  He claimed that both Prime Minister Tymoshenko and opposition leader Yanukovych had agreed to avoid raising NATO in their campaigns....


ENERGY SECURITY

9. (C) Poroshenko stated it was vital that the EU invite Ukraine to join the European Energy Community at the December 18 ministerial in Zagreb.  The Secretary agreed that energy security was essential.  Ambassador Morningstar said that he had actively lobbied for Ukraine's inclusion in the Energy Community and would be happy to make another approach to the EU.  (Morningstar later spoke with European Commission Pielbalgs to voice continued support for Ukrainian membership.)  Morningstar noted that the EU was considering a compromise agreement that would involve a two-step approach to Ukraine's membership. 

He noted some progress on energy issues, e.g., progress with Russia on gas issues at Yalta, but emphasized that this was short-
term; what was needed was long-term reform.  The United States was ready and willing to help Ukraine modernize its gas sector, increase energy efficiency and improve the investment climate, if Kyiv's commitment was there. The Secretary stressed that Ukraine could boost its independence and sovereignty by increasing its energy independence.



We don't have a hand in this illegal government overthrow, you say? Well, WE apparently, will "never let a good crisis go to waste"


I still believe Obama is the truth.  No president achieves all he wishes, and he faced some almost insurmountable problems.


GQ, you don't speak the language, you haven't been to the region, and you have never interacted with Ukrainian peasants.  I have, and that is what tells me it is not faked.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 25, 2014, 11:38:17 AM
..Do I have to explain anything else?..

Yes. Because from that picture you posted doesn't tell me anything other than a silly label saying it's ammunition. These trucks were at the border a FULL WEEK and had both the Ukrainians/ICRC inspecting them.

Quote
...Of course I do..

Good. Then tell me exactly what it means and how it applied to my assertion.

Quote
...Here you have lost me on 'gathered *sensitive* military and security materials'. I haven't posted anything about gathering materials, I posted about accusation of stealing factory equipment to manufacture certain military equipment. Since when Russia entitled to rob Ukrainian factories?...

Radars is but one of the equipment being accused of 'trucking' back to Russia. The eastern region of Ukraine had been manufacturing a lot of Russian weaponry and technology. These are classified, intelligence material. As to whether or not the Russians took them back is still left for evidential due process. and Like I said, if they did, then I can't honestly say I blame them because the truth of the matter is, had it been USA, UK, France, Israel, etc...they will undoubtedly do the exact same thing.

Quote
...Post more specific details about which State Administration building you are talking about and I will reply. It is impossible to give any answer to general statements as the one you did above...

No it isn't. How many 'STATE ADMINISTRATION BUILDING are there in Luhansk? You're just being coy to avoid a direct line of questioning.

So answer the questions.

Quote
...By the way perhaps you also wold like to see this photo (hopefully you follow news enough to recognize face on this photo as well as able to understand where that photo is made)...

I don't. You ask me to be specific but you like remaining vague.

You need to remember. Military advisers, strategists, foreign fighters, or whatever else you'd like to introduce in this conflict *swings both ways*. You can't condemned one but not the other. Eastern Ukraine largely voted for what was the presiding president in 2010, which was illegally removed. That is what you need to view this entire conflict.

I am amazed at how ordinary Ukrainian citizens just bought into the whole *investigation result* on who was behind the Kiev sniper attacks.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 25, 2014, 11:47:02 AM

I still believe Obama is the truth...

Therein lies my point.

Quote
...No president achieves all he wishes, and he faced some almost insurmountable problems....

Insurmountable problems? He had the majority of congress at his bidding at the start of his administration. There hasn't been a president who trampled our Constitution in the way this dufus has, Boethius. I doubt the IRS, VA, Benghazi et al scandals can hardly be termed 'insurmountable problems'.

Quote
...GQ, you don't speak the language, you haven't been to the region, and you have never interacted with Ukrainian peasants.  I have, and that is what tells me it is not faked....

Riiight...

I can speak other languages than just English and if I saw anyone speaking what I speak doesn't automatically say I can ascertain whether truth or lies are being conveyed. English speakers are in knots in our court system and they had to rely on lie detectors, court deliberations and other scientific means to gauge truths from lies.

Ferguson's recent eyewitness's testimony of 'Hands up, don't shoot' BS is a good example of this.

You either need to market your skills, appear in some 'wonderful world of the unexplained' or simple admit you're wildly stretching by saying you can ascertain truths from lies from someone who you don't know speaking from a silly youtube video.

I can't believe the lengths some of you would go to maintain silly narratives.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 25, 2014, 12:16:58 PM
Quote
At a meeting arranged by the chief of police in Starobilsk (97 km north of Luhansk city) on 20 August, a man claimed that he had been severely beaten the previous day in Polovynkyne (88 km north of Luhansk) by members of a Ukrainian volunteer battalion. He said members of the 24th Aidar Battalion – already at the centre of accusations of human rights abuses in the northern Luhansk region (see SMM daily reports of 8 August (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122495),of 11 August (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122570), 14 August (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122628)) – after detaining him at a checkpoint, had accused him of separatism and had threatened to kill him, unless his wife paid over USD 10,000. She did so, whereupon he was released the same day, he said. The SMM observed that the man’s head was heavily swollen, bloody and bruised and that he had bruises and smaller wounds on his arms and legs.

Rest of the report here: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122920 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122920)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 25, 2014, 01:24:21 PM
Interesting article today about the way Russia is playing this at home:

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/210801-rosjanie-pochowali-swoich-zolnierzy-poleglych-na-ukrainie-chcieli-zachowac-tajemnice

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 25, 2014, 04:04:16 PM

The old KGB Agent, Putin, is scared sh&tless that the same revolution that happened in Kyiv will happen in Russia.  If, in ten years time (and probably sooner now that Ukraine is polarized and the West is sympathetic) Ukraine's standard of living bounces to a new, never before seen level, such will put the final nail in the coffin or Russian hegemony.   His only hope on maintaining power will come with the increased controlling of his population.



Reporting from the front, this may be closer than you think. My outlaws have a cousin who lives in Omsk. He would repeat the propaganda he saw on Russian TV and would tell my outlaws they were over reacting and all the stuff my outlaws told him they experienced, he said they must be lying because they don't see anything like that in Russian TV.


Well, one of his neighbors in Omsk is creating a big stink. (He may be asking for a death sentence for all I know.) The neighbors have a son in the military and they went to visit him at his base. When they got there, their son was nowhere to be found. They went to the base commander and demanded to know where was their son. "Oh well, he went missing or something like that." The father, who was also military got on the commander's face at ripped him a new one telling him that if his son "went missing or something like that" he is breaking the law and that is punishable with jail time so what the fcuk is he doing about it. They left the base and no news from the son. That was a month ago. Now they are questioning all the bullshit news media they see on TV and are expecting the worse as they feel their son was killed in Ukraine and they may never see his body.


As I was told, this guy is beyond himself and may do some stoopid shit that we will never hear on Russian TV.


Needless to say, the zombies are NOT telling my outlaws they are making up stories of shit happening in Ukraine anymore. This time, they are listening. Including the father of the young soldier.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 25, 2014, 04:10:08 PM
Oh, BTW. Some of the empty humanitarian aid trucks from Russia were seen raiding a Ukrainian army depot and taking the shit back to Russia. The local news were interviewing some workers at the depot and gave eyewitness accounts.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 25, 2014, 04:32:01 PM

Reporting from the front, this may be closer than you think. My outlaws have a cousin who lives in Omsk. He would repeat the propaganda he saw on Russian TV and would tell my outlaws they were over reacting and all the stuff my outlaws told him they experienced, he said they must be lying because they don't see anything like that in Russian TV.


Well, one of his neighbors in Omsk is creating a big stink. (He may be asking for a death sentence for all I know.) The neighbors have a son in the military and they went to visit him at his base. When they got there, their son was nowhere to be found. They went to the base commander and demanded to know where was their son. "Oh well, he went missing or something like that." The father, who was also military got on the commander's face at ripped him a new one telling him that if his son "went missing or something like that" he is breaking the law and that is punishable with jail time so what the fcuk is he doing about it. They left the base and no news from the son. That was a month ago. Now they are questioning all the bullshit news media they see on TV and are expecting the worse as they feel their son was killed in Ukraine and they may never see his body.


As I was told, this guy is beyond himself and may do some stoopid shit that we will never hear on Russian TV.


Needless to say, the zombies are NOT telling my outlaws they are making up stories of shit happening in Ukraine anymore. This time, they are listening. Including the father of the young soldier.

There is a historical precedent to this:

When the Tzar sent all of the Russian soldiers to battle in the First World War, they came back from the front and told all of their stories about fighting a battle that Russia did not have an interest in.  I can't remember what happened after that ........     :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 25, 2014, 05:56:14 PM
Another perspective on the purpose of the recent Russian 'humanitarian aid' convoy by TIME Online (http://time.com/3166682/russia-ukraine-trucks-putin/)...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 25, 2014, 07:15:03 PM

I still believe Obama is the truth. 



Obama is many things but truthful is not on the list.  In fact, he may be the most deceitful President since Nixon, yet Nixon was a pro who accomplished much. 

I detest the man, yet I give him good marks for what he has done so far in Ukraine.  You do not want to hear my grades for his policies in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, etc.  With regard to foreign policy, the man is an amateur. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 25, 2014, 07:46:46 PM
Another perspective on the purpose of the recent Russian 'humanitarian aid' convoy by TIME Online (http://time.com/3166682/russia-ukraine-trucks-putin/)...


Thanks for providing that link.  I agree with much of what was stated regarding Russia is just doing the types of things we (the USA) are doing in Syria.  To take it one step further, today I read that we (the USA) are going to begin a drone surveillance campaign in Syria, without asking the Syrian leadership.  Well if that is the precedent, then Russia may well decide to do something similar in Ukraine.  Although Syria can't do much of anything against our military the rest of  the world can see the precedent and do the same in areas they have interests in.  We can't think our actions are going to continue to go without a response. 


[size=78%]http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/25/obama-authorizes-use-surveillance-drones-over-syria/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/08/25/obama-authorizes-use-surveillance-drones-over-syria/)[/size]

Edit:  Drones not for bombing yet.
Fathertime!     
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 25, 2014, 08:22:22 PM
Strange world we all live in, isn't it? According to US officials, drones will enter Syrian airspace without Syria's approval or authorization (LOL). As far as Syria is concerned, I quote...

Quote
Syrian Foreign Minister Walid al-Moallem warned against any such strikes without Damascus's consent. Mr. al-Moallem, speaking at a news conference in Damascus, said Syria is ready to cooperate against extremist forces but any action against militant groups "should be coordinated with the Syrian government."

Methinks this is all false banter and Syria had likely already gave approval and have to just say something otherwise for public consumption. Just as Iran is already engaged in Iraq alongside the Kurds and the US....Nevertheless, the hypocrisy by our government regarding the Time Online article is spot on.

Talk about unlikely bedfellows...stranger still that a lot of the ISIS fighters are from the UK.

Brings to mind the mockery Bush jr. received with the infamous *the enemy of my enemy is my friend*. I'm happy Obama is eating crow with so many things he criticized Bush for before.

But Bush have one more problem. Rory McIlroy just nominated him for an Ice Bucket Challenge.  :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dek_hMd4T-k
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 07:08:30 AM
Here's a comentary from one of Murduch's boys. If you can't see it, PM me and I'll be happy to send you the oped piece. (http://online.wsj.com/articles/matthew-kaminski-the-west-forgets-history-putin-repeats-it-1409008065?cb=logged0.14938495447859168)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 07:26:22 AM
There is a historical precedent to this:

When the Tzar sent all of the Russian soldiers to battle in the First World War, they came back from the front and told all of their stories about fighting a battle that Russia did not have an interest in.  I can't remember what happened after that ........     :o


Here's (http://censor.net.ua/news/299690/mat_propavshego_desantnika_pskovskoyi_divizii_poprosila_proscheniya_u_grajdan_ukrainy_on_skazal_chto) another one. Of course, Lavarov categorically denied the existence of this woman. 8)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 07:50:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh9bBr_oIlc




Interrogator: So this is from your division?
 Milchakov: Yes.
 Interrogator: Introduce yourself, please.
 Milchakov: I'm from the Russian Federation, my name is Ivan Vasilyevich Milchakov, born 7 June, 1995.
 Interrogator: Where did you serve?
 Milchakov: I don't understand.
 Interrogator: You're serving, correct?
 Milchakov: I serve in the city of Kostroma, Russian Federation, at army base 71211, 331th Parachute Paratroopers Regime, 98th Airborne Division
 Interrogator: Rank?
 Milchakov: Rank [inaudible]
 Interrogator: Do you know that you are now illegally on the territory of Ukraine?
 Milchakov: I guessed. But I realized it when they already began to bomb us.
 Interrogator: Ah-hah. How did you end up on Ukrainian territory?
 Milchakov: We went in convoys. Not on the roads but through the fields. I didn't even see where we crossed the border.
 Interrogator: Understood. But you did know were going to Ukraine?
 Milchakov: We knew.
 Interrogator: And...your purpose?
 Milchakov: They didn't tell us anything. They just said we were going on a march for 70 kilometers, on a 3-day trip.
 Interrogator. Ah-hah. Can you take that? It's your dog-tag?
 Milchakov: Yes, it's my dog-tag.
 Interrogator: Read it.
 Milchakov: Armed Forces of Russia SU 108012
 Interrogator: Can I have that? "VS [Armed Forces] of Russia. SU-108012"
 Tell me...your personal opinion...Why did they send you here?
 Milchakov: My personal opinion? My personal opinion, if it were up to me, I wouldn't have stuck my nose in...I think Ukraine is also independent. If there are some kind of problems, then let them resolve them internally....themselves. But for outsiders shouldn't stick their nose in.
 Interrogator: On your page on VKontakte...There's this phrase..."I'm being sent to Rostov once again. To the war. To wipe out Maidan. I'm leaving Monday." So here it is. Is there such a phrase? Is that yours?
 Milchakov: Yes, it's mine.
 Interrogator: Can you provide some commentary?
 Milchakov: Provide commentary? At that moment, they didn't tell us anything concrete. There were just rumors. But everyone understood...what would happen. We're going to Rostov. Since there will be training in Rostov.
 Interrogator: So then what does "wiping out Maidan" have to do with that.
 Milchakov: Well, sort of...it's embarrassing even to say...I just wanted to show off in front of my friends, I guess. That's why I wrote that.
 
 At that moment, we didn't know, we were told, on the television, there were rumors going around... in our country, in Russia, "Bandera," it will do anything, but the militia, that's good. But coming here, and winding up in captivity, it was explained to us, and they opened our eyes to the truth, what is really going on. We didn't even know why we were going here.  We went here, and that's it. We just lost our way. They shot us with mortar shells. Then from the Russian side, they shot with Grads as well.
 Interrogator: Your own people?
 Milchakov: [Nods head several times.]
 
 They brainwash us Russians, I'll tell you that. In fact, everything is different. Not the way they say on television. But we simple guys, they tell us what to do, we do it. We're coming here like cannon fodder. We don't know why, or for what reason. That's it.
 Interrogator: Thank you.
 Milchakov: So I send love to everyone. To Mama, Papa, brother, sister, Grandma, Grandpa. My beloved Grandfather Oleg, it's so hard for him now, and when he finds out, it will be even harder for him.
 
 To the commanders, I would call on you not to hide from soldiers, what's going on and where we're going...and they said...we're like blind cats, going along.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on August 26, 2014, 08:08:38 AM
He might as well ask the Ukrainians for political asylum now, since if he is sent back to Russia he will probably be 'disappeared' and never to be seen again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 26, 2014, 10:10:20 AM
Muzh, our resident Russian apologists may rightly point out he could very well be a paid "actor", complete with fake Russian (as opposed to Ukrainian) accent.


This villager was probably paid as well -


http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/uk-ukraine-crisis-novoazovsk-idUKKBN0GQ19Y20140826
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 11:07:23 AM
Wait for it, wait for it....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 11:14:49 AM
And the Russians still insist Ukraine is NOT a country.


Tell it to these people.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bgJ9JOc0ERA#t=191




Heh, heh, heh
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 11:26:35 AM
Oy, more propaganda (http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/08/26/uk-ukraine-crisis-rights-un-idUKKBN0GQ1TI20140826).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 11:39:53 AM
Very interesting piece (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/08/23/heres-what-ukraines-poroshenko-and-the-west-should-offer-vladimir-putin-next-week-in-minsk/) from Forbes.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 11:46:01 AM
Muzh, our resident Russian apologists may rightly point out he could very well be a paid "actor", complete with fake Russian (as opposed to Ukrainian) accent....

 ;D

*Apologist* defined: "a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial".

Months after discussions, some still just doesn't get it.

As I can only speak for myself, and what I have been saying all along, I don't give a rat's arse what Russia or Putin does, nor have I ever taken a stand to defend whatever it was they're doing. My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage like we did in Yugoslavia.

Now as far as the recent posts relating to the captured Russian soldiers, IMHO, it's not any different than the 400 Ukrainian soldiers and tank brigade that tripped over to the Russian territory (which were treated fairly and fed and released back to Ukraine), without even having to put any of them on camera like Ukraine is doing here. Even with the Russian soldier's commentary, nowhere will one find where it said these soldiers were on an *invading* mission to Ukraine. Unless you guys can point that out to me, of course. So, you can all sleep well tonight. There isn't any invasion here as I doubt had there been one, they'd likely send troops far more prepared than this kid on, egads, YouTube...LMAO!

One very interesting thing however, it seems rather absurd to me that a *superpower* nation would have soldiers who can be 'lost' close to a 'hot zone'. But looking at all the soldiers involved in this conflict, one doesn't really make the other look any better. It is as bizarre as seeing that Ukrainian tank brigade walloping on over to Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 26, 2014, 12:01:41 PM
Other soldiers allegedly captured in Ukraine are from Pskov.  That unit is an elite airborne division.  Practically impossible for it to have "mistakenly" crossed the border.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 12:05:18 PM
Yes. The kid definitely looks *elite*.

Keep trying...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 26, 2014, 12:15:55 PM
That soldier is not from the Pskov unit. 

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 12:44:49 PM
;D

*Apologist* defined: "a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial".

Months after discussions, some still just doesn't get it.

As I can only speak for myself, and what I have been saying all along, I don't give a rat's arse what Russia or Putin does, nor have I ever taken a stand to defend whatever it was they're doing. My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage like we did in Yugoslavia.

Now as far as the recent posts relating to the captured Russian soldiers, IMHO, it's not any different than the 400 Ukrainian soldiers and tank brigade that tripped over to the Russian territory (which were treated fairly and fed and released back to Ukraine), without even having to put any of them on camera like Ukraine is doing here. Even with the Russian soldier's commentary, nowhere will one find where it said these soldiers were on an *invading* mission to Ukraine. Unless you guys can point that out to me, of course. So, you can all sleep well tonight. There isn't any invasion here as I doubt had there been one, they'd likely send troops far more prepared than this kid on, egads, YouTube...LMAO!

One very interesting thing however, it seems rather absurd to me that a *superpower* nation would have soldiers who can be 'lost' close to a 'hot zone'. But looking at all the soldiers involved in this conflict, one doesn't really make the other look any better. It is as bizarre as seeing that Ukrainian tank brigade walloping on over to Russia.


LMAO


Cool your heels man. For a second there you sounded like you were apologizing for the Russian Army's "oops."


BTW, any links to the "humanitarian" treatment the Ruskies gave the Ukrainian soldiers.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 26, 2014, 01:31:41 PM
Very interesting piece (http://www.forbes.com/sites/gregsatell/2014/08/23/heres-what-ukraines-poroshenko-and-the-west-should-offer-vladimir-putin-next-week-in-minsk/) from Forbes.

Excellent read.   And brief too. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 01:51:12 PM

LMAO


Cool your heels man. For a second there you sounded like you were apologizing for the Russian Army's "oops."...

Oh kewl! As long as it just 'sounds like'  :P

But apparently I was mistaken when I said the Russians didn't put the 438 Ukrainian soldiers on camera when they stumbled over to Russia without provisions and supplies...and much as I 'hate' to post anything from RT, here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-OsrCkXTNY

Quote from: Muzh
...BTW, any links to the "humanitarian" treatment the Ruskies gave the Ukrainian soldiers.  ;) ...

Reuters/NPR reported it back in April when *Ukrainian paratroopers* ( :rolleyes: ) defected and went to the rebels' camp....

>>..."All the soldiers and the officers are here. We are all boys who won't shoot our own people," said the soldier, whose uniform did not have any identifying markings on it."They haven't fed us for three days on our base. They're feeding us here. Who do you think we are going to fight for?," he said...<<

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-apcs-idUSBREA3F0K420140416 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-apcs-idUSBREA3F0K420140416)


...and this one can't be 'today' as the tank brigade that seek shelter in Russia, IIRC, happened in late July or early August..
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/04/373992/438-ukrainian-troops-escape-to-russia/ (http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/08/04/373992/438-ukrainian-troops-escape-to-russia/)


On a good note, at least the Gaza/Israel finally found a good resolution to quell their gripe and stop bombing one another. Israel agreed to finally 'ease' and open the Gaza border and Hamas vowed to lay down their arms.

Sheeesh!





Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 26, 2014, 02:13:11 PM


Months after discussions, some still just doesn't get it.

As I can only speak for myself, and what I have been saying all along, I don't give a rat's arse what Russia or Putin does, nor have I ever taken a stand to defend whatever it was they're doing. My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage....

I have not seen any factual reports supporting your claim.  This is all about Europe, not America.  Even if Ukraine survives this mess and develops a viable economy,  America's trade with Ukraine will be small.  We do not need their grain, sunflower seed oil, or steel.  One of the articles cited by Muzh remarks how America has outsourced the Ukrainian issue to Germany.  I assert whatever we did had little effect to what was already underway.


Quote
....like we did in Yugoslavia.

Again, your accusations do not hold water.  Whatever America did came after the fact of Yugoslavia disintegrating because of internal factors. 
And what America did in the 1990s was in lockstep with European powers.   I recall that George Bush supported Yugoslavian unity. 

The history of the Balkans is one of the more complex subjects in Academia, with much occurring before America was more than a few colonies.  And while America was a young, isolationist nation, even more happened (can you say WW I which begat WW II).  It is amazing how Tito held the disparate regions together to form a unified Yugoslavia in the aftermath of WW II and kept them together for 50 years. 

If you have a particular thesis you wish to elaborate, please do.  I will have it verified or denied by one of my best friends, a PhD Swede married to a Serb and residing in Belgrade.  His hobby is Balkan history, plus his wife was head of the Communist  party at her university.   So you will receive a bicameral response. 



Quote
One very interesting thing however, it seems rather absurd to me that a *superpower* nation would have soldiers who can be 'lost' close to a 'hot zone'.

 :D :D :D :D   I know first hand that it happened in the US Army. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 02:27:02 PM
I have not seen any factual reports supporting your claim.  This is all about Europe, not America....

I sent a bit of this 'factual report upthread with my discussion with Boethius. Maybe a page past this current one.

Quote
...Even if Ukraine survives this mess and develops a viable economy,  America's trade with Ukraine will be small.  We do not need their grain, sunflower seed oil, or steel.  One of the articles cited by Muzh remarks how America has outsourced the Ukrainian issue to Germany.  I assert whatever we did had little effect to what was already underway...

America's core interest in this has nothing to do with *economics*. That's EU's business.

Quote
...Again, your accusations do not hold water.  Whatever America did came after the fact of Yugoslavia disintegrating because of internal factors...

LOL. You should go ahead and consult  your PhD *friend* ASAP and do ask him how Germany and the US was involved in the Balkans of the '90s.
 
Quote
...And what America did in the 1990s was in lockstep with European powers.   I recall that George Bush supported Yugoslavian unity....

Did you mean when we couldn't get a UN resolution, we instead made it a NATO business because of European's inaction and apprehension to get involved in that conflict? LMAO!

WTF does NATO have anything to do with Yugoslavia anyway to begin with? You might also want to ask your Swede friend about that.  :P   

Quote
...The history of the Balkans is one of the more complex subjects in Academia, with much occurring before America was more than a few colonies.  And while America was a young, isolationist nation, even more happened (can you say WW I which begat WW II).  It is amazing how Tito held the disparate regions together to form a unified Yugoslavia in the aftermath of WW II and kept them together for 50 years....

Sorry, way before my time. Your generation I suppose, no? 

Quote
If you have a particular thesis you wish to elaborate, please do.

Not thesis. Just the facts, baby...

Quote
   I know first hand that it happened in the US Army....

...and I won't be surprised it was your company, right?  :P We were talking about 'elite' soldiers.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 03:16:33 PM
Bit: BBC previously aired an Alan Little's, a BBC correspondent, documentary titled: *Moral Combat. NATO at War*

Bit 1: "I believed in the ultimate power, the goodness of the power of the allies and led by the United States. Spring has come early!" Madeline Albright.

Bit 2: "There were a couple of times when I felt I just can't do this any more. We're just not doing this right and I owe it to my people to stand up and say we're just not doing this right!" Gen. Michael Short
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Isthmus on August 26, 2014, 04:57:20 PM
I know this is a side issue but there is some real nonsense being sprouted about US involvement and engagement in ex Yugoslavia in the 1990s. There really was no policy initially in Bush Snr's Administration other than a nod and a wink to Milosevic to wrap things up quickly in Slovenia and Croatia in 1991.

Thereafter followed no real policy of substance and it was left to the EU to carry the ball. The EU proved to be grossly incompetent and failed abysmally whilst Belgrade racked up atrocities of the scale and type of a what was thought to be from a bygone era.

It was only in late 1994 that the Clinton Administration become more actively involved and this picked up pace during 1995.

Active US engagement in 1995 and again in 1998/99 over Kosovo actually brought peace and stability to the whole of ex-YU which has survived to this day and is one of the rare examples of a successful US interventionist policy abroad in the last few decades.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 26, 2014, 05:31:46 PM
Bit: BBC previously aired an Alan Little's, a BBC correspondent, documentary titled: *Moral Combat. NATO at War*

Bit 1: "I believed in the ultimate power, the goodness of the power of the allies and led by the United States. Spring has come early!" Madeline Albright.

Bit 2: "There were a couple of times when I felt I just can't do this any more. We're just not doing this right and I owe it to my people to stand up and say we're just not doing this right!" Gen. Michael Short


LMAO


Now I know your busting our balls.


I mean, the US is influencing the outcome throughout the world?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjbPi00k_ME
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 08:13:34 PM
I know this is a side issue but there is some real nonsense being sprouted about US involvement and engagement in ex Yugoslavia in the 1990s. There really was no policy initially in Bush Snr's Administration other than a nod and a wink to Milosevic to wrap things up quickly in Slovenia and Croatia in 1991.


Thereafter followed no real policy of substance and it was left to the EU to carry the ball. The EU proved to be grossly incompetent and failed abysmally whilst Belgrade racked up atrocities of the scale and type of a what was thought to be from a bygone era.

It was only in late 1994 that the Clinton Administration become more actively involved and this picked up pace during 1995.

Active US engagement in 1995 and again in 1998/99 over Kosovo actually brought peace and stability to the whole of ex-YU which has survived to this day and is one of the rare examples of a successful US interventionist policy abroad in the last few decades.

Well, let's just say in matters concerning Yugoslavia between you and Alan Little (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allan_Little), my dollar will rest with him, LOL.

Here's a neat little historical 6-part episodes that Alan Little and Lauren Silver did. It's called 'Death of Yugoslavia'. Sort of a documentary timeline...there isn't no 'nod and a wink' from Bush Sr, I'm sad to say...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAwsodl4BC0

But feel free to stay with your narrative. Here's a cool foreign affair activity Bush had during his presidential tenure...

http://millercenter.org/president/bush/essays/biography/5

I was hoping you weren't going to say that the US's intervention in Yugoslavia was a purely 'humanitarian' cause because not too far from there is this little African nation called Rwanda, who in a much relatively shorter time, roughly 800,000 Rwandans we're getting hacked to death with machetes and not one humanitarian was in sight intervening. LMAO...and we were actually in that part of the world not too long ago before that hack-party took place, too. That hellhole of a place called 'Somalia'.

To say, the aftermath of US's involvement in Yugoslavia resulted in success and 'relative peace' is being disingenuous. There's 'relative peace and success in Rwanda today, too.

So what exactly is your point?  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 26, 2014, 08:14:47 PM

LMAO


Now I know your busting our balls.


I mean, the US is influencing the outcome throughout the world?

Nah...whatever gave you that idea?  :o Especially NOT in Ukraine, no?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: TheTraveler on August 27, 2014, 05:34:41 AM

As I can only speak for myself, and what I have been saying all along, I don't give a rat's arse what Russia or Putin does, nor have I ever taken a stand to defend whatever it was they're doing. My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage...

great points. good post.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 27, 2014, 05:52:17 AM
Great points?

We have a long suffering people, who had it up to their ears at corruption from their president and his entourage that is so massive, even they can no longer take it, demonstrate for change.  Someone in that president's entourage orders the shooting of protesters, against the Constitution, and for some unknown reason, those protesters should just stop and continue to allow the president and his cronies to siphon hundreds of millions of tax dollars for their private coffers via shell companies, to take a cut from every bank in the country, to build an LED port with taxpayer funds completely owned by that same elite group, to illegally change the country's Constitution to give the president unlimited powers, and to replace an independent judiciary at the highest levels with the president's own flunkees.  Yet somehow, Ukrainians are too neanderthal to have decided that this assault on their rights, and on their lives, is abnormal.  Nope, they were manipulated by the far more sophisticated Americans to march on the streets, to face gunfire and death, all for some perceived, yet unknown and unannounced US interests. 

Yup, makes sense to me.  You know those primitive Slavs.  Good at producing hot women for our interests, but really, too stupid to see what is under their noses, or to rule themselves.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 27, 2014, 06:16:11 AM
Do not forget the protests started because those people were promised a membership of the EU, which was how the trade treaty was ´explained´.
As for corruption, I sincerely doubt the current crew will prove any better than all those before (orange or not).
Hopefully history will prove me wrong.
Did Poroschenko sell his business already?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 27, 2014, 06:19:57 AM
Most Euromaidan activists understood what the Association Agreement meant.


The current Rada failed to pass anti corruption measures demanded by Maidan activists.


Poroshenko has hired a European company to handle the sale of his business interests.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: TheTraveler on August 27, 2014, 06:26:10 AM
...Someone in that president's entourage orders the shooting of protesters...

hysterical and not based on solid proof.

so i just stopped reading when i reached that sentence.

time is too valuable to be wasted on blah blah blah.

sorry!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on August 27, 2014, 06:27:34 AM
Most Euromaidan activists understood what the Association Agreement meant.


The current Rada failed to pass anti corruption measures demanded by Maidan activists.


Poroshenko has hired a European company to handle the sale of his business interests.
Strange. None of those we met on social media did.
And there is no current Rada, it as dissolved awaiting elections, hoping that in October the Donbass area will still be unable to cast a vote.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 27, 2014, 06:43:40 AM
hysterical and not based on solid proof.

so i just stopped reading when i reached that sentence.

time is too valuable to be wasted on blah blah blah.

sorry!


There is plenty of proof of Yanukovych's trashing of the Constitution, appointing cronies to Ukraine's supreme court, of the companies he and his entourage established to steal tax funds, of the LED port, and of the shooting of protesters, including some 100 bodies.


There is no proof that the U.S. orchestrated the events in Ukraine.


But, I didn't expect anything more than a passing insult from you,  You have never really struck me as a deep thinker.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 27, 2014, 06:46:32 AM
Strange. None of those we met on social media did.
And there is no current Rada, it as dissolved awaiting elections, hoping that in October the Donbass area will still be unable to cast a vote.


You probably were not interacting with Maidan activists.


You know I meant the Rada as at three days ago.  The lack of movement on lustration is likely why the Rada was dissolved.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on August 27, 2014, 07:49:11 AM
I find it laughable that some folks have to blame the current U.S. administration for the events at Maiden and Ukraine in general. An administration that can't find it's own ass with both hands. I suppose that is the only narrative that can project Putin into a true humanitarian in saving Russian speaking Ukrainians from the Fascist bastards in Kiev. These are the same folks crying about the ineptness of this same administration in other areas of the world.

If they had blamed any administration before this one, or possibly some lobbying group or mega oil company they might have a valid argument. But, no it has to be the U.S. and this administration. Never mind that they are completely devoid of any truth or actual facts connecting the Obama group with the exception of one recorded phone call. Funny how they attempt to use that same parallel  to support their position. Never mind that Russian military and equipment are being captured and killed inside Ukraine. I suppose the Obama administration planted them there.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 27, 2014, 08:33:50 AM
I find it laughable that some folks have to blame the current U.S. administration for the events at Maiden and Ukraine in general. An administration that can't find it's own ass with both hands. I suppose that is the only narrative that can project Putin into a true humanitarian in saving Russian speaking Ukrainians from the Fascist bastards in Kiev. These are the same folks crying about the ineptness of this same administration in other areas of the world.



Don't forget the intellectual EU.


LMFAO


Good one!!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 27, 2014, 08:45:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYYXn47Eq4
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 08:55:07 AM
I find it laughable that some folks have to blame the current U.S. administration for the events at Maiden and Ukraine in general. An administration that can't find it's own ass with both hands. I suppose that is the only narrative that can project Putin into a true humanitarian in saving Russian speaking Ukrainians from the Fascist bastards in Kiev. These are the same folks crying about the ineptness of this same administration in other areas of the world.

If they had blamed any administration before this one, or possibly some lobbying group or mega oil company they might have a valid argument. But, no it has to be the U.S. and this administration. Never mind that they are completely devoid of any truth or actual facts connecting the Obama group with the exception of one recorded phone call. Funny how they attempt to use that same parallel  to support their position. Never mind that Russian military and equipment are being captured and killed inside Ukraine. I suppose the Obama administration planted them there.


Hhhmmm...because YOU don't think it plausible then it cannot be...gotcha.

 ;)

Did you also think it wasn't plausible this administration would be shoulder to shoulder with the Iranians fighting in Iraq? Or that they do not require any international approval to fly the sky of a sovereign nation, which they've classified as an 'enemy' looking for war? Something which they demonize everyone else when they do it?

I bet you didn't now, did you?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on August 27, 2014, 10:18:31 AM

Hhhmmm...because YOU don't think it plausible then it cannot be...gotcha.

 ;)

Egg-'zatly  :D Just as you think it is. There just has to be some other explanation for the events of Maiden than a repressed downtrodden populace, eh? Just has to be. It has to be the US, the root of all evil. Then you have a maniacal commie purist that is the savior of the day.  :ROFL:

Can your position get anymore comical than that? There isn't much verifiable proof to either side of the conflict but, the assertion that the West slipped in under the radar of the Ukrainian government while Yanko was still in office and fomented Maiden is really "out there". What is even further absurd is that the West or Representatives fired on the crowd. The killing in Ukraine thus far has been a result of Russian backed terrorists. It started at Maiden and it continues in the East.



Quote
Did you also think it wasn't plausible this administration would be shoulder to shoulder with the Iranians fighting in Iraq? Or that they do not require any international approval to fly the sky of a sovereign nation, which they've classified as an 'enemy' looking for war? Something which they demonize everyone else when they do it?

I bet you didn't now, did you?

I think if I was looking for a bigger juicier red herring, I couldn't have found one bigger than this doosie. Apparently I would agree with you on this subject but, stick with me here. We are discussing Ukraine, Maiden, Russia, Terrorist. Not the ISIS form of terrorism, it's a different sort. Stay on topic. By the way, I know the U.S. had nothing to do with Maiden because there is an Ebola outbreak in Africa.  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 10:26:00 AM
...

Reuters/NPR reported it back in April when *Ukrainian paratroopers* ( :rolleyes: ) defected and went to the rebels' camp....

>>..."All the soldiers and the officers are here. We are all boys who won't shoot our own people," said the soldier, whose uniform did not have any identifying markings on it."They haven't fed us for three days on our base. They're feeding us here. Who do you think we are going to fight for?," he said...<<

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-apcs-idUSBREA3F0K420140416 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/16/us-ukraine-crisis-slaviansk-apcs-idUSBREA3F0K420140416)


I posted this yesterday and noted in both of those venues, and in different time and circumstances, Ukraine government soldiers complained of being under-supplied and have nothing to 'eat'...I thought the US had sent millions of dollars worth of supplies to Kiev for this conflict, which notably included MREs...

On the video above, when the soldiers were showing what I first though were *bricks* were actually 'bread' that they're lugging with them. Now I know they aren't exactly the US-made MREs...what the heck happened to them and why are those soldiers being expected to fight for the government in these state.

So I searched, and look what I found out.

http://time.com/45253/ukraine-corruption-tymoshenko-kiev/ (http://time.com/45253/ukraine-corruption-tymoshenko-kiev/)

The more things change, the more they really stay the same.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 27, 2014, 10:32:43 AM
You are forgetting the Russian infiltration in government.  ;)


Edit: At least some (http://zik.ua/en/news/2014/08/27/semen_semenchenko_weve_been_cheated_by_our_generals_yet_again_518146) are fighting back. Don't expect miracles overnight.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 10:33:16 AM
Egg-'zatly  :D Just as you think it is. There just has to be some other explanation for the events of Maiden than a repressed downtrodden populace, eh? Just has to be. It has to be the US, the root of all evil. Then you have a maniacal commie purist that is the savior of the day....

You're starting to get it, bro....give it time. You know you want to..

Quote
...Can your position get anymore comical than that? There isn't much verifiable proof to either side of the conflict but, the assertion that the West slipped in under the radar of the Ukrainian government while Yanko was still in office and fomented Maiden is really "out there". What is even further absurd is that the West or Representatives fired on the crowd. The killing in Ukraine thus far has been a result of Russian backed terrorists. It started at Maiden and it continues in the East....

Nuland thought the tap was impressively clear enough. LMAO!


Quote
I think if I was looking for a bigger juicier red herring, I couldn't have found one bigger than this doosie. Apparently I would agree with you on this subject but, stick with me here. We are discussing Ukraine, Maiden, Russia, Terrorist. Not the ISIS form of terrorism, it's a different sort. Stay on topic. By the way, I know the U.S. had nothing to do with Maiden because there is an Ebola outbreak in Africa.  ;D

I am staying 'on-topic', in case you once again *conveniently* missed it. The topic was *US intervention* AND *exceptionalism* :P

You, on the other hand, presented ebola, LMAO!

It is widely known that virtual *Red Herring* are usually offered up as a last offering when one gets boxed in a corner so as to not have to venture further into the discussion.

I get you, bro.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 11:02:18 AM
..."In Donetsk the SMM met with an interlocutor from the Donetsk Eparchy of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate.  According to the interlocutor, on 30 July, a priest from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate was verbally and physically assaulted by Ukrainian Army servicemen while passing through an army checkpoint located in the area of Amrosievka (75 km southeast of Donetsk). Reportedly, several servicemen stopped and surrounded the priest whom they asked about his church affiliation, namely to which Patriarchate he belonged. Reportedly, while the priest was about to answer, one of the servicemen fired shots in the air next to the priest’s ears. The servicemen then asked the priest to take off his necklace carrying a Christian Cross, but when the priest resisted they pulled it off violently, said the interlocutor.

The servicemen searched the house of the priest, who was beaten and his family members threatened. The interlocutor could not specify which military unit was manning the checkpoint at the time of the alleged assault, but had later learnt the servicemen were newly-deployed in the area. Following the incident, the church produced a report which was sent to church’s head offices in Kyiv which in turn, on 1 August 2014, referred it to the office of the Ukrainian President. According to the interlocutor, there has been no reply to the complaint from the President’s office thus far...."

http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/123004
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 27, 2014, 11:21:35 AM
I sent a bit of this 'factual report upthread with my discussion with Boethius. Maybe a page past this current one.

I read your reference.  It centers on events in 2009.  These are nothing more than routine diplomatic moves to support if not encourage a closer relationship between Ukraine and the West, particularly Europe.   

This is not a "factual report" about covert US operations to overthrow Ukraine's President.  Yet you extrapolate these routine 2009 diplomatic moves to the US covertly instigating Euromaidan starting in November 2013.   I don't believe The US government does high level covert operations to support future trade pacts benefitting EU.  Further, as Faux Pas says, this administration can not distinguish its ass from a hole in the ground, yet you assert it can orchestrate  something as slick as Euromaidan without a trace of US involvement. 

Everyone is telling you there is no proof.  If we are wrong, prove it.  Please present something factual and relevant
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 27, 2014, 11:37:12 AM
 :offtopic:   Yugoslavia


LOL. You should go ahead and consult  your PhD *friend* ASAP and do ask him how Germany and the US was involved in the Balkans of the '90s.   

Before I contact my friend, I want to make sure I understand your point.  I intend to ask the following questions; if I am missing something, please let me know: 

1.   What was the extent of involvement of the US in the Balkans of the '90s other than the two NATO bombing campaigns?

2.  Did the involvement of the US in Balkans significantly affect the breakup of Yugoslavia?    Or was the breakup inevitable as a result of sociological and political differences deeply embedded over centuries, with the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe triggering the breakup events?   

3.  What is the general opinion of Little’s book Death of Yugoslavia



Quote
WTF does NATO have anything to do with Yugoslavia anyway to begin with? You might also want to ask your Swede friend about that.  :P


No need to ask him as I too question the involvement given that there was no threat to a NATO nation.   


Quote
Sorry, way before my time. Your generation I suppose, no? 


To understand the Balkans one must understand its long, complex history.  Sorry to disappoint you but I was not around in the Middle Ages, nor during the Ottoman Empire, nor when Serb Gavrilo Princip assassinated the heir to the Austro Hungarian throne.  I was around in the latter days of the Croat fascist state but was wearing diapers and not really interested in the Balkans. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 11:42:29 AM
I read your reference.  It centers on events in 2009.  These are nothing more than routine diplomatic moves to support if not encourage a closer relationship between Ukraine and the West, particularly Europe.   

This is not a "factual report" about covert US operations to overthrow Ukraine's President.  Yet you extrapolate these routine 2009 diplomatic moves to the US covertly instigating Euromaidan starting in November 2013.   I don't believe The US government does high level covert operations to support future trade pacts benefitting EU.  Further, as Faux Pas says, this administration can not distinguish its ass from a hole in the ground, yet you assert it can orchestrate  something as slick as Euromaidan without a trace of US involvement. 

Everyone is telling you there is no proof.  If we are wrong, prove it.  Please present something factual and relevant.

That was just an appetizer. Follow the report of where it came from. There had been many more reports of the kind from since 2006 to present (Maybe even way before that, but no matter). I already gave you precursor and I'm sure you're more than capable enough to find your way.

Once done, you can extrapolate all those ensuing $ 5.4 billions dollars worth of USAid for Freedom and Democracy to countries we usually usher to prior to an overthrow, LOL.

For instance. This, from 2008. Preceeding that of 2009....

Classified By: Ambassador William J. Burns.  Reasons 1.4 (b) and (d).
 

1.  (C) Summary.  Following a muted first reaction to Ukraine's intent to seek a NATO Membership Action Plan (MAP) at the Bucharest summit (ref A), Foreign Minister Lavrov and other senior officials have reiterated strong opposition, stressing that Russia would view further eastward expansion as a potential military threat.  NATO enlargement, particularly to Ukraine, remains "an emotional and neuralgic" issue for Russia, but strategic policy considerations also underlie strong opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia.  In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene.  Additionally, the GOR and experts continue to claim that Ukrainian NATO membership would have a major impact on Russia's defense industry, Russian-Ukrainian family connections, and bilateral relations generally.  In Georgia, the GOR fears continued instability and "provocative acts" in the separatist regions.  End summary.

MFA: NATO Enlargement "Potential Military Threat to Russia"

2.  (U) During his annual review of Russia's foreign policy January 22-23 (ref B), Foreign Minister Lavrov stressed that Russia had to view continued eastward expansion of NATO, particularly to Ukraine and Georgia, as a potential military threat.  While Russia might believe statements from the West that NATO was not directed against Russia, when one looked at recent military activities in NATO countries (establishment of U.S. forward operating locations, etc. they had to be evaluated not by stated intentions but by potential.  Lavrov stressed that maintaining Russia's "sphere of influence" in the neighborhood was anachronistic, and acknowledged that the U.S. and Europe had "legitimate interests" in the region. But, he argued, while countries were free to make their own decisions about their security and which political-military structures to join, they needed to keep in mind the impact on their neighbors.

3.  (U) Lavrov emphasized that Russia was convinced that enlargement was not based on security reasons, but was a legacy of the Cold War.  He disputed arguments that NATO was an appropriate mechanism for helping to strengthen democratic governments.  He said that Russia understood that NATO was in search of a new mission, but there was a growing tendency for new members to do and say whatever they wanted simply because they were under the NATO umbrella (e.g. attempts of some new member countries to "rewrite history and glorify fascists").

4.  (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia."  The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side."  The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures."  The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation."

Russian Opposition Neuralgic and Concrete

5.  (C) Ukraine and Georgia's NATO aspirations not only touch a raw nerve in Russia, they engender serious concerns about the consequences for stability in the region.  Not only does Russia perceive encirclement, and efforts to undermine Russia's influence in the region, but it also fears unpredictable and uncontrolled consequences which would seriously affect Russian security interests.  Experts tell us that Russia is particularly worried that the strong divisions in Ukraine over NATO membership, with much of the ethnic-Russian community against membership, could lead to a major split, involving violence or at worst, civil war.  In that eventuality, Russia would have to decide whether to intervene; a decision Russia does not want to have to face.

6.  (C) Dmitriy Trenin, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, expressed concern that Ukraine was, in the long-term, the most potentially destabilizing factor in U.S.-Russian relations, given the level of emotion and neuralgia triggered by its quest for NATO membership.  The letter requesting MAP consideration had come as a "bad surprise" to Russian officials, who calculated that Ukraine's NATO aspirations were safely on the backburner.  With its public letter, the issue had been "sharpened."  Because membership remained divisive in Ukrainian domestic politics, it created an opening for Russian intervention.  Trenin expressed concern that elements within the Russian establishment would be encouraged to meddle, stimulating U.S. overt encouragement of opposing political forces, and leaving the U.S. and Russia in a classic confrontational posture. The irony, Trenin professed, was that Ukraine's membership would defang NATO, but neither the Russian public nor elite opinion was ready for that argument.  Ukraine's gradual shift towards the West was one thing, its preemptive status as a de jure U.S. military ally another.  Trenin cautioned strongly against letting an internal Ukrainian fight for power, where MAP was merely a lever in domestic politics,  further complicate U.S.-Russian relations now.

7.  (C) Another issue driving Russian opposition to Ukrainian membership is the significant defense industry cooperation the two countries share, including a number of plants where Russian weapons are made.  While efforts are underway to shut down or move most of these plants to Russia, and to move the Black Sea fleet from Sevastopol to Novorossiysk earlier than the 2017 deadline, the GOR has made clear that Ukraine's joining NATO would require Russia to make major (costly) changes to its defense industrial cooperation.

8.  (C) Similarly, the GOR and experts note that there would also be a significant impact on Russian-Ukrainian economic and labor relations, including the effect on thousands of Ukrainians living and working in Russia and vice versa, due to the necessity of imposing a new visa regime.  This, Aleksandr Konovalov, Director of the Institute for Strategic Assessment, argued, would become a boiling cauldron of anger and resentment among the local population.

9.  (C) With respect to Georgia, most experts said that while not as neuralgic to Russia as Ukraine, the GOR viewed the situation there as too unstable to withstand the divisiveness NATO membership could cause.  Aleksey Arbatov, Deputy Director of the Carnegie Moscow Center, argued that Georgia's NATO aspirations were simply a way to solve its problems in Abkhazia and South Ossetia, and warned that Russia would be put in a difficult situation were that to ensue.

Russia's Response

10.  (C) The GOR has made it clear that it would have to "seriously review" its entire relationship with Ukraine and Georgia in the event of NATO inviting them to join.  This could include major impacts on energy, economic, and political-military engagement, with possible repercussions throughout the region and into Central and Western Europe. Russia would also likely revisit its own relationship with the Alliance and activities in the NATO-Russia Council, and consider further actions in the arms control arena, including the possibility of complete withdrawal from the CFE and INF Treaties, and more direct threats against U.S. missile defense plans.

11.  (C) Isabelle Francois, Director of the NATO Information Office in Moscow (protect), said she believed that Russia had accepted that Ukraine and Georgia would eventually join NATO and was engaged in long-term planning to reconfigure its relations with both countries, and with the Alliance. However, Russia was not yet ready to deal with the consequences of further NATO enlargement to its south.  She added that while Russia liked the cooperation with NATO in the NATO-Russia Council, Russia would feel it necessary to insist on recasting the NATO-Russia relationship, if not withdraw completely from the NRC, in the event of Ukraine and Georgia joining NATO.

Comment

12. (C) Russia's opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine and Georgia is both emotional and based on perceived strategic concerns about the impact on Russia's interests in the region.  It is also politically popular to paint the U.S. and NATO as Russia's adversaries and to use NATO's outreach to Ukraine and Georgia as a means of generating support from Russian nationalists.  While Russian opposition to the first round of NATO enlargement in the mid-1990's was strong, Russia now feels itself able to respond more forcefully to what it perceives as actions contrary to its national interests.

BURNS2013: The YES Summit.

2014: Enter - Nuland's cookie festival and tap...

There's many more points and info in between, but I judge you can exercise due diligence on your own.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 11:48:07 AM
:offtopic:   Yugoslavia

Before I contact my friend, I want to make sure I understand your point.  I intend to ask the following questions; if I am missing something, please let me know: ..

 
1.   What was the extent of involvement of the US in the Balkans of the '90s other than the two NATO bombing campaigns?
Yup.

2.  Did the involvement of the US in Balkans significantly affect the breakup of Yugoslavia?    Or was the breakup inevitable as a result of sociological and political differences deeply embedded over centuries, with the collapse of communism in Eastern Europe triggering the breakup events?   


Nope. Point being it's irrelevant. What was Yugoslavia's affairs are their own.

3.  What is the general opinion of Little’s book Death of Yugoslavia? 

...in addition to, but not least, his documentary titled: Moral Combat: NATO at War

No need to ask him as I too question the involvement given that there was no threat to a NATO nation.   

Well then, I rest my case...maybe your friend can answer that for us.

To understand the Balkans one must understand its long, complex history.  Sorry to disappoint you but I was not around in the Middle Ages, nor during the Ottoman Empire, nor when Serb Gavrilo Princip assassinated the heir to the Austro Hungarian throne.  I was around in the latter days of the Croat fascist state but was wearing diapers and not really interested in the Balkans.


That wasn't what is being tabled here. Most every nation have their own historical legacies and none of it has anything to do with our intervention in the Balkans of the '90s and the arming of a group we already classified as 'a terrorist group'..

Are you getting this yet?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 27, 2014, 03:13:05 PM

Who said RESIST was BETTER than REBEL?   I think it is a more accurate way of describing what is happening.    Resist who?  The Russians and the Ukraianians that support the separatist movement. ...who else?

Did you really write 'Ukrainians resist russians and ukrainians supporters of separatist movement'?

Do you actually understand how many ukrainians and how many russians and ukrainians supporters of separatist movement?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 27, 2014, 03:36:55 PM
Rest of the report here: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122920 (http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122920)

That is a joke by the way. First who is this individual who was able to pay $10K cash on the same day in ukraine's war zone? Only russian apologists could listen/read this and believe it is a true (as they need any justification they are able to find). OSCE by themselves have to record anything they observe including what they have been told, that is their job but for god's sake those who read should be capable of thinking too.

GQB, when you read OSCE try to distinguish between 'we have seen/been able to observe' and 'we have been told', it kind of helps (specially to those with limited knowledge of Ukraine).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 27, 2014, 03:56:41 PM
Interesting perspective (http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2014/08/27/russias-stealth-invasion-of-ukraine/) for an all out war from a Russian studies researcher.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 27, 2014, 04:02:24 PM

Well, one of his neighbors in Omsk is creating a big stink.

Muzh, it may be worth for them to contact Груз -200 из Украины в Россию (easiest way through facebook probably)
They have lists of some who died and actually seeking contact with relatives.

As well as Центр звільнення полонених (also easy to contact through facebook). These guys doing amazing work in Ukraine and I am pretty sure if approached in right way they could check if missing person held in Ukraine.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 27, 2014, 04:57:33 PM
Needlessly antagonistic.  Take this as a warning
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 27, 2014, 05:06:37 PM



There is no proof that the U.S. orchestrated the events in Ukraine.




Even if there was zero evidence that we could find, that still doesn't mean too much.  How much evidence did we have regarding the failed attempted rescue of James Foley? This may have required up to 100 troops, and probably another 100 or more knew about it...despite this we (the public) never heard a thing about it, until James Foley was later beheaded.   Despite what some thing down thread, this govt. of ours may be incompetent at times, but they are still capable of keeping things, and sometimes rather large things from the public. 


Now that people can see what the govt. is capable of, it isn't too far a stretch to think they could have been involved in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, Libya, and the list goes on.  They can cover many or all of their tracks for a while, but there is little more than zero confidence in what they say.  It is a concequence of earlier omissions.   As for me, I can't say for sure, but yeah I think the USA helped foment in Ukraine and we shouldn't have done that.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 27, 2014, 05:13:28 PM
Yes. Because from that picture you posted doesn't tell me anything other than a silly label saying it's ammunition. These trucks were at the border a FULL WEEK and had both the Ukrainians/ICRC inspecting them.

You mean those 36 (or was it 34?) trucks that were allowed to be inspected?
To give you one more hint -> mortar ammunition, rest I hope someone as bright as you could find out by himself.

Good. Then tell me exactly what it means and how it applied to my assertion.

It means you haven't read what I posted

Radars is but one of the equipment being accused of 'trucking' back to Russia. The eastern region of Ukraine had been manufacturing a lot of Russian weaponry and technology. These are classified, intelligence material. As to whether or not the Russians took them back is still left for evidential due process. and Like I said, if they did, then I can't honestly say I blame them because the truth of the matter is, had it been USA, UK, France, Israel, etc...they will undoubtedly do the exact same thing.

And this means not only you haven't read what I posted by also you have no idea what I posted about.

It took 8 years for Ukraine to develop Kolchuga and simple fact that Russia was one of export countries doesn't give them right to rob Ukranian factories and steal technology.

No it isn't. How many 'STATE ADMINISTRATION BUILDING are there in Luhansk? You're just being coy to avoid a direct line of questioning.

You see when you try you can be more specific. Now I know you talking about Luhansk administration building.

I will post about it when i have time (too late now and in the morning have to wake up early)


I don't. You ask me to be specific but you like remaining vague.

I give you hint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxMUl-ptOnY

But I hope what behind him on photo I posted earlier you are bright enough to guess by yourself.


I am amazed at how ordinary Ukrainian citizens just bought into the whole *investigation result* on who was behind the Kiev sniper attacks.

Well what evidence do you have to contrary? And before you post me idiotic russian propaganda bare in mind I seen enough to know in what direction bullets were going as well as know Maidan well enough and buildings on it. Russian BS can buy only net expert that never have been on Maidan.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 27, 2014, 05:52:17 PM
That is a joke by the way. First who is this individual who was able to pay $10K cash on the same day in ukraine's war zone? Only russian apologists could listen/read this and believe it is a true (as they need any justification they are able to find). OSCE by themselves have to record anything they observe including what they have been told, that is their job but for god's sake those who read should be capable of thinking too.

GQB, when you read OSCE try to distinguish between 'we have seen/been able to observe' and 'we have been told', it kind of helps (specially to those with limited knowledge of Ukraine).

LMAO!

The acronym stands for "Organization for Security and Co-Operation in Europe". You have problems with the way they post their report, write to them. I am not writing anything * additional* to what they report. I had hoped YOU were bright enough to know that.

Quote
...You mean those 36 (or was it 34?) trucks that were allowed to be inspected? To give you one more hint -> mortar ammunition, rest I hope someone as bright as you could find out by himself....

OY! "give me one more hint", LOL. I was also hoping you were bright enough to understand it DOESN'T take a FULL WEEK to inspect all 280 trucks parked side by side all in the same area. Your silly little picture with red circles and labels mean ZERO. I will pretend  your silly little *proof* have an ounce of merit and say "Wow! look at that, they ARE carrying weapons! OMG!" (LOL), then who's fault is that? Ukrainians and the ICRC were there an ENTIRE week!

Besides, Kiev had been accusing Russia to be sending weapons and armory since the conflict began, why would Russia all of the sudden decide to *sneak* weaponry under the guise of 'humanitarian aid" in trucks that were to be inspected before it crossed the border for an ENTIRE WEEK?

Make sense now? Your government is making a mockery of all of you for even presenting something as idiotic as that silly little picture with funny looking red circles, arrows, and the words *ammunition*.

Quote
...It means you haven't read what I posted...

Deflection 1 - Section A: Avoidance 1.2

Quote
...
And this means not only you haven't read what I posted by also you have no idea what I posted about.

It took 8 years for Ukraine to develop Kolchuga and simple fact that Russia was one of export countries doesn't give them right to rob Ukranian factories and steal technology....

No. You're the one who didn't get the point. For Ukraine to manufacture ANYTHING slated for Russia for their military, it would be classified. It will bear military securities...Ukraine DOES not have or retains exclusivity to it or them.

Quote
....
You see when you try you can be more specific. Now I know you talking about Luhansk administration building.

I will post about it when i have time (too late now and in the morning have to wake up early)...

Deflection 2 - Section B: Avoidance 1.3

Quote
...I give you hint...But I hope what behind him on photo I posted earlier you are bright enough to guess by yourself...

LMAO! Another YOUTUBE proof. Kiev really does have a fascination for youtube, no? I'm from Hollywood MissA. In my town, we can make this dude look like he's talking from the top of Everest, maybe even on Mars. All we really need to have is some ' green' background. Hell we can even make it look like he's standing on the very same spot on the street in Ferguson where Mike Brown got punked.

Quote
...
Well what evidence do you have to contrary? And before you post me idiotic russian propaganda bare in mind I seen enough to know in what direction bullets were going as well as know Maidan well enough and buildings on it. Russian BS can buy only net expert that never have been on Maidan....

I didn't realize PM Paet and Catherine Ashton were actors and were working for Russia.  ;)


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 27, 2014, 06:30:49 PM
Hoist by their own petard, wouldn't you say?

4.  (U) During a press briefing January 22 in response to a question about Ukraine's request for a MAP, the MFA said "a radical new expansion of NATO may bring about a serious political-military shift that will inevitably affect the security interests of Russia."  The spokesman went on to stress that Russia was bound with Ukraine by bilateral obligations set forth in the 1997 Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation and Partnership in which both parties undertook to "refrain from participation in or support of any actions capable of prejudicing the security of the other Side." 

I'm pretty sure that the Russian support for the separatists at this time is directly contrary to what is quoted here.  And, to continue directly on with the quoted speech:

Quote
The spokesman noted that Ukraine's "likely integration into NATO would seriously complicate the many-sided Russian-Ukrainian relations," and that Russia would "have to take appropriate measures."  The spokesman added that "one has the impression that the present Ukrainian leadership regards rapprochement with NATO largely as an alternative to good-neighborly ties with the Russian Federation."

What one gives with one hand, one taketh away with the other.  You cannot prattle on about upholding obligations under a Treaty between two countries and then threaten to change the rules of that Treaty just because the other party decides that it wants to join another Treaty which involves other countries, especially if the latter group (NATO in this case) aren't threatening the party of the first part!  Added to which, who said that joining NATO and staying friends with Russia are mutually exclusive?  NATO's charter/vision/mission statement doesn't include anything about destroying Russia.

2014: Enter - Nuland's cookie festival and tap...

There's many more points and info in between, but I judge you can exercise due diligence on your own.

And so say all of us!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 27, 2014, 07:21:40 PM

Obama is many things but truthful is not on the list.  In fact, he may be the most deceitful President since Nixon, yet Nixon was a pro who accomplished much. 

I detest the man, yet I give him good marks for what he has done so far in Ukraine.  You do not want to hear my grades for his policies in Iraq, Egypt, Libya, etc.  With regard to foreign policy, the man is an amateur.



I agree with you on Obama's character. His approval rating is the worst of modern presidents so we are not alone.


I disagree with you on what Obama has done in Ukraine. If Obama's goal is not to intervene he is doing a bad job. If his goal is to stop Putin, he is doing a bad job. Putin can make Obama look like he made bad decisions in the future. If Putin decides to pull a Hitler, be patient for the first few years and then go all out militarily on multiple countries, tens of millions can die. The economies of many countries can be shattered. Obama, like the Europe in the 30's, will be accused of doing too little to deter the aggressors.


Pertaining to the situation in Ukraine, Putin is more of control of how Obama is to be judged than Obama himself. Sanctions may have seemed to slow Putin down but Putin is still going after his objective.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 28, 2014, 05:37:25 AM

Are you getting this yet?



I will give you my understanding of your position. But first, I ask:  I do not think anyone can sit on the fence now.  Are you for Ukraine and the efforts of its democratically elected government to defend its sovereign land, or do you support Putin and his efforts to destabilize Ukraine? 

Now, to your position.  I can understand the support given to Russia by our Russian members, explained by nationalism and propaganda (the title of this thread).   What intrigues me are the positions taken by you and Shadow. 

Even though Shadow is European and 154 of his countrymen were slaughtered by the malfeasance of Russia and pro-Russian insurgents, Shadow seems to have the same pro-Russian sentiments as our Russian members.  He supported Russian invasion of Georgia and the annexation of Crimea.  Today, like my 15-yo stepson, he perhaps is pleased with the Russian escalation of the conflict, namely an invasion by over a thousand regular Russian ground troops into the Mariupol region.  Evidently Shadow has strong ties with Russia.  And I guess Manny is the same.

I consider your position not as baffling as Shadow's.   Let me try.

Your position seems to derive from the ouster of the pro-Russian Yanukovych.  I gather you are more offended by the manner  in which he was ousted (e. g., civil unrest, possibly not following ) rather than the policy direction taken by his democratically elected replacement to seek closer ties with Europe.   

Surely something concerns you more than apparently not following parliamentary procedure.  Robert's Rules of Order are important, yet people are dying in protecting their sovereign land against invaders.  And I assume what drives you the most is in your mind the US government started this by playing a heavy role in ousting Yanukovych, even though there is no direct proof of such.  This is confirmed when you wrote earlier:   "My beef in this entire stupidity is the illegal overthrow of a legitimate government (coerced, manipulated, supported, orchestrated) by my own government for our own geopolitical advantage like we did in Yugoslavia."

Let us assume you are correct, the CIA played the Ukrainian people to include starting and fomenting the deadly Euromaidan protests.   However, that is done and the Ukrainian people have elected a new President.   Russia who for centuries has treated Ukraine as a vassal state is responding by first annexing a large part of Ukraine's sovereign territory and now invading  directly on a limited scale another large part of Ukraine.  What say you about Russia today?


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 07:43:29 AM
A protest (http://www.rferl.org/media/video/ukraine-defense-military-protest/26554952.html), brought to you by your friendly CIA.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 07:48:49 AM
More propaganda (http://www.rferl.org/media/video/russia-ukraine-soldiers-prisoners/26554795.html), brought to you by your friendly CIA and Hollywood.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 07:51:19 AM
Heh, they (http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/220437.html) know they are next.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 08:00:47 AM
Heh, the filthy lying bitch (http://en.censor.net.ua/news/300038/russia_invading_ukraine_human_rights_adviser_to_putin), right, comrades?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 08:03:42 AM
Heh, I'm ptretty sure he is (http://en.censor.net.ua/video_news/300005/russian_troops_invaded_ukraine_poroshenko_convenes_urgent_the_nsdc_meeting_video) lying too. Maybe reading a script provided by the friendly CIA.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 08:11:13 AM
Brought to you by the CIA and Hollywood. You can see Steven Spielberg here.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiZMLhVehjk&feature=youtu.be
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 08:16:00 AM
It's amazing how the CIA (http://time.com/3198068/russian-soldiers-in-ukraine-put-pressure-on-putins-denials/) works. So much disinformation has even confused members of Putin's cabinet.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 28, 2014, 08:26:16 AM

Even if there was zero evidence that we could find, that still doesn't mean too much.  How much evidence did we have regarding the failed attempted rescue of James Foley? This may have required up to 100 troops, and probably another 100 or more knew about it...despite this we (the public) never heard a thing about it, until James Foley was later beheaded.   Despite what some thing down thread, this govt. of ours may be incompetent at times, but they are still capable of keeping things, and sometimes rather large things from the public. 


Now that people can see what the govt. is capable of, it isn't too far a stretch to think they could have been involved in Ukraine, Syria, Iran, Libya, and the list goes on.  They can cover many or all of their tracks for a while, but there is little more than zero confidence in what they say.  It is a concequence of earlier omissions.   As for me, I can't say for sure, but yeah I think the USA helped foment in Ukraine and we shouldn't have done that.


Fathertime!


Not every world event is orchestrated by the U.S.  We now have proof that Russian troops have entered Ukraine.  There is proof of advanced weaponry being used, observed by journalists.  That is in addition to journalists noting the same during the so called "humanitarian convoy".


Since Day 1, I have posted reports, by pro Russia demonstrators, who openly stated they'd been trained by Russian security forces, and were being paid as much as $80 a day to foment unrest.  In Donbass, paid mercenaries flooded the region.  The "Peoples' Republics" of Lugansk and Donetsk were controlled and directed not by locals, but by Russian nationals, all with known ties to the FSU.  Now, we have a reported 1,000 Russian troops on Ukrainian soil, all while the Putinistas continue to assert America is behind this conflict, and Russia "will not invade".  Treaties mean nothing to this Russian government, and the West looks on, impotently, while war is ignited once again on European soil.


The reason Ukrainians on this forum have stated Russia is behind this, not the US, is because we know our history.  We need only look back to over three centuries to note Russia's duplicity in its dealings with Ukraine. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 28, 2014, 08:33:12 AM
OY! "give me one more hint", LOL. I was also hoping you were bright enough to understand it DOESN'T take a FULL WEEK to inspect all 280 trucks parked side by side all in the same area. Your silly little picture with red circles and labels mean ZERO. I will pretend  your silly little *proof* have an ounce of merit and say "Wow! look at that, they ARE carrying weapons! OMG!" (LOL), then who's fault is that? Ukrainians and the ICRC were there an ENTIRE week!

No, Ukraine was not allowed to inspect all vehicles.  Some crossed in terrorist controlled territories. 

Journalists who viewed the truck contents noted many were almost empty.  So, was this a PR stunt for domestic (Russian) consumption, or an exercise to provide the terrorists with support?

Quote
Besides, Kiev had been accusing Russia to be sending weapons and armory since the conflict began, why would Russia all of the sudden decide to *sneak* weaponry under the guise of 'humanitarian aid" in trucks that were to be inspected before it crossed the border for an ENTIRE WEEK?

As I noted, not all the trucks were inspected, and Russia did not allow all trucks to be inspected.  In fact, it parked them at military depots in Russia, and refused Ukrainian officials access to them.

Throughout, the Russians claimed they were coordinating through the ICRC.  That was not true.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/14/russian-aid-convoy-heads-toward-rebel-held-territory-ignoring-ukraines-demands-for-an-inspection/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/08/14/russian-aid-convoy-heads-toward-rebel-held-territory-ignoring-ukraines-demands-for-an-inspection/)

Quote
No. You're the one who didn't get the point. For Ukraine to manufacture ANYTHING slated for Russia for their military, it would be classified. It will bear military securities...Ukraine DOES not have or retains exclusivity to it or them.


No, Ukraine does have exclusivity on weapons systems it develops on its soil, with its resources.  The work of the factory, and its equipment, may be classified, but that is for Ukraine, not Russia, to decide.


Russia supplied a part to Ukraine for its tanks.  A few years ago, it refused to supply the part any longer, and Ukraine had to redevelop its tanks to deal with this.  It retained exclusivity to the part.  Same with Ukraine's factories.  Theft is theft.  I am beginning to think this is what the "humanitarian aid" was about.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 28, 2014, 09:24:56 AM
No, Ukraine was not allowed to inspect all vehicles.  Some crossed in terrorist controlled territories...
 

Boethius-

You know when you Google-search for information hoping to find that would support your point, you should at least do one of two things...a) read and understand the content of your selected article; and b) search diligently. You're one of the *more* objective person I knew of on this site, albeit, and understandably, driven by your emotions of late. As a lawyer, you should know, or should have known, that such tendencies can very easily make you lose any sense of objectivity.

I cite:

1. 
Quote
Ukrainian border guards began on Thursday to inspect a Russian truck convoy carrying aid earmarked for humanitarian relief in eastern Ukraine that has been stranded at the frontier between the two former Soviet republics for nearly a week.

2. 
Quote
"I can confirm that at 2:15 p.m. (1115 GMT/7.15 a.m. EDT) the Ukrainian side began border-customs formalities relating to the Russian humanitarian cargo," border guard spokesman Andriy Demchenko told Reuters.

3. 
Quote
"We are ready to roll with this convoy, there has been a last-minute delay. We are hopeful that it will be resolved shortly," ICRC spokesman Ewan Watson told Reuters.

4. 
Quote
"Last-minute decisions from the Ukrainian side have delayed the process," he said, declining to elaborate.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-convoy-idUSKBN0GL13M20140821 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-ukraine-crisis-russia-convoy-idUSKBN0GL13M20140821)

5. 
Quote
The International Committee for the Red Cross (ICRC), which was supposed to monitor the aid mission, did not escort the convoy after it failed to receive "sufficient security guarantees from the fighting parties", it said in a statement. But ICRC staff members were reportedly with the aid supplies in Luhansk.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/23/donetsk-ukraine-russia-vladimir-putin


See what happens is when you do what you just did, it places you at a distinct disadvantage the next time you try to make a point because it tarnishes your future attempt to be objective. I mean look at Muzh. He probably skipped his morning coffee and got all caught up Googling information. Emotion, while sometimes endearing, can be destructive to reason and logic. He'd get a heart attack if he isn't careful.

Luhansk, the targeted destination for this 'aid', was already under rebel control for months leading up to this moment just as pathways of travel from Russia. Why then even try to attempt to do *what they conceivable can do at any time*, under the guise of humanitarian flagship?

As for the 'shared' trade and co-op between Ukraine and Russia dealing with military ware, you can say whatever you want to say about it, but the bottom line is, the 'sensitivity and exclusivity' lies solely with Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 28, 2014, 09:31:22 AM
See the second paragraph of my link.


Luhansk was not rebel controlled at the time the convoy rolled into town.  But areas to the south were. 


Russia was not concerned with providing "humanitarian aid" until it looked as if the conflict would be over.  That is what that "aid" was about.


Russia cannot have exclusivity over weapons systems owned, and produced, in another country. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 28, 2014, 10:56:09 AM
...I consider your position not as baffling as Shadow's.   Let me try....

No need, really. My position, sentiment and conviction about this conflict had been shared and expressed fairly clearly throughout this and other discussions. The opening summary of that last cable I shared already forewarned of events we are witnessing today, Gator. I'm surprised why people are *surprise* to the *unfolding* events that's being serve up with each passing day.

"In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."


That was back in 2008. 2 years before Yanukovich.

Any other insignificant verbal salvo between us minions, is simply that, insignificant. It is quite comical how, with every passing days, we all exchange links and social media installments relating to an event that was already scripted verbatim.

In terms of my personal opinion regarding the conflict? My sympathies to ALL the people of Ukraine. They suffer the pains of being pawns by the powers that be just as the millions that came before them in our world. My dismay and disappointment is nestled in the fact this still could have been prevented had *opportunities* been heeded during the course of where we are today. IMHO, undeniably, there had been numerous opportunities to change course.

But I do hope when this dust settles down, Ukraine will eventually rise and find itself in the best possible circumstances.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 11:43:50 AM
No need, really. My position, sentiment and conviction about this conflict had been shared and expressed fairly clearly throughout this and other discussions. The opening summary of that last cable I shared already forewarned of events we are witnessing today, Gator. I'm surprised why people are *surprise* to the *unfolding* events that's being serve up with each passing day.

"In Ukraine, these include fears that the issue could potentially split the country in two, leading to violence or even, some claim, civil war, which would force Russia to decide whether to intervene."


That was back in 2008. 2 years before Yanukovich.




Hey cool and sexy dude, that is called a frozen conflict. You know what that is, right?

Any other insignificant verbal salvo between us minions, is simply that, insignificant. It is quite comical how, with every passing days, we all exchange links and social media installments relating to an event that was already scripted verbatim.

In terms of my personal opinion regarding the conflict? My sympathies to ALL the people of Ukraine. They suffer the pains of being pawns by the powers that be just as the millions that came before them in our world. My dismay and disappointment is nestled in the fact this still could have been prevented had *opportunities* been heeded during the course of where we are today. IMHO, undeniably, there had been numerous opportunities to change course.

But I do hope when this dust settles down, Ukraine will eventually rise and find itself in the best possible circumstances.


Yep, pawns of the evil CIA. The poor Russians just want to help their little brother and take care of them. What ingrates.  :rolleyes:


BTW, I NEVER skip my morning coffee.  ;)


And talking about emotions, keep thy in check. There's been a few posts that you seem to lose coolness. ;)


Me? Well, when I see my wife crying and jittery fearing for her family, it bothers me.


As she says, the majority of the county has chosen their path. Why can't the Russians leave them alone? Of course, it's a rhetorical question. She has experienced the answer.


Remember Corazon Aquino, that nice little CIA lady?



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 28, 2014, 12:09:49 PM
LMFAO


I'm listening to Vitaly Churkin addressing the UN security council and man, he sounds exactly like our cool and sexy dude. I wonder if Churkin has been receiving talking points from GQ.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 28, 2014, 12:33:55 PM
...
BTW, I NEVER skip my morning coffee.  ;) ...


LMAO!

Well then, in light of your present display of emotional unraveling (http://mindful-matters.net/2012/11/27/unraveling-emotional-triggers/), maybe you should have.

You're a fine case study sampling of the point I was making to Boethius. I'm glad you happily volunteered for the exercise.

 ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ghost of moon goddess on August 28, 2014, 12:51:33 PM
LMFAO


I'm listening to Vitaly Churkin addressing the UN security council and man, he sounds exactly like our cool and sexy dude. I wonder if Churkin has been receiving talking points from GQ.

Accusing the Accuser with the same charge thus not holding any responsibility in addressing the charge, but simply throwing the charge back  :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 28, 2014, 02:21:44 PM
Accusing the Accuser with the same charge thus not holding any responsibility in addressing the charge, but simply throwing the charge back  :)

Sounds like my wife!  And a number of other RW I had the pleasure of knowing. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 28, 2014, 07:14:35 PM



The reason Ukrainians on this forum have stated Russia is behind this, not the US, is because we know our history.   


And one of the reasons why us US citizens (and others) have suspicions about some US involvement is we know our history. 


 Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: TheTraveler on August 28, 2014, 07:35:07 PM

Boethius-

See what happens is when you do what you just did, it places you at a distinct disadvantage the next time you try to make a point because it tarnishes your future attempt to be objective.


exactly. like most people here, i'm interested in learning more about this conflict, but her posts are riddled with propaganda, deception, and hysterics.  there might even be some good factual material buried in her posts.  problem is that when a poster loses credibility, nothing she posts is taken seriously.  it's just blah blah blah.  being that she's a lawyer's secretary, one would expect her to appreciate this point. oh well...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: TheTraveler on August 28, 2014, 07:37:38 PM

And one of the reasons why us US citizens (and others) have suspicions about some US involvement is we know our history. 


 Fathertime!

exactly... and if we didn't have a hand in it, can we get a refund for the $5b?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 28, 2014, 09:16:29 PM
exactly... and if we didn't have a hand in it, can we get a refund for the $5b?


America spreads democracy around the world. Other countries spread their brand of crap. If America did nothing outside of our borders from here on out, we would be out of business in less than 100 years. There are plenty of countries hungry for land grabs and to grow in power. The only thing stopping them is the thought of America's reputation for getting in their way.


For the investment of spreading democracy and letting our economies be affected by sanctions, it seems Obama and Europe is going to get little for their return. Putin is determined to take some or all of Ukraine. When it come to renegotiate contracts pertaining to gas, he will pass on the costs to the consumer, they guys putting sanctions on Russia.


A few guys think NATO has a reason to get involved. Russia invading is violating Ukraine's sovereignty. Budapest Memorandum comes to mind.

http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-invasion-breaks-budapest-memorandum-may-prompt-nato-action-1672790 (http://www.ibtimes.com/russian-invasion-breaks-budapest-memorandum-may-prompt-nato-action-1672790)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 29, 2014, 12:08:33 AM
exactly. like most people here, i'm interested in learning more about this conflict, but her posts are riddled with propaganda, deception, and hysterics.  there might even be some good factual material buried in her posts.  problem is that when a poster loses credibility, nothing she posts is taken seriously.  it's just blah blah blah.  being that she's a lawyer's secretary, one would expect her to appreciate this point. oh well...

HAHA.  Am I supposed to be insulted by being labelled a "lowly secretary".  By a eunuch who resorts to posting passive aggressively, attempting to insult in an indirect manner, rather than addressing a poster directly?

I'm not a secretary, but if I were, I would not find it a demeaning position and would have no trouble posting my occupation. That post reveals a great deal about you, in that you posted it assuming it is somehow an insult.  Go and tell your wife her position as a a community college educated teen bride/housewife is worth nothing to you, you snob.

Everything I have posted about Ukraine is confirmed by at least three independent sources and, consequently, can't be labelled propaganda.  That is contrary to GQ's assertions of conspiracy at the hands of the U.S. and EU, which is speculation, at best.

Today, there are satellite images of Russian military movement within Ukraine's borders, released by NATO.  The terrorist leader has admitted, and it has been confirmed by a Russian official, that Russian soldiers are fighting among the terrorists.  Of course, they claim these are "soldiers on vacation", as if conscripts would use their vacation time to become cannon fodder in a foreign country. 

I did not post propaganda about the Muscovites who lead the so called "DPR" and "LPR".  Those Muscovites were interviewed first hand and admitted they were Russian nationals with no ties to Ukraine.  A couple of them even admitted directly to having served in the Russian government, in various capacities.


I am certain a ragtag group of former miners would have the capabilities to launch sophisticated GRAD missiles, operate surface to air missiles with exceptional precision, and operate the most recent Russian tanks, not even getting into how they managed to acquire all this sophisticated weaponry, which is generations ahead of what their Ukrainian army counterparts operate.

All of the above are first hand accounts, dismissed by stooges of the Russian government as "propaganda" because the truth of what is occurring is too shameful for them to admit.  So, as unthinking as you are, I am not at all surprised you would label it "propaganda". 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 29, 2014, 12:47:51 AM
  See what happens is when you do what you just did, it places you at a distinct disadvantage the next time you try to make a point because it tarnishes your future attempt to be objective. I mean look at Muzh. He probably skipped his morning coffee and got all caught up Googling information. Emotion, while sometimes endearing, can be destructive to reason and logic. He'd get a heart attack if he isn't careful.Luhansk, the targeted destination for this 'aid', was already under rebel control for months leading up to this moment just as pathways of travel from Russia. Why then even try to attempt to do *what they conceivable can do at any time*, under the guise of humanitarian flagship?


But it was not under rebel control at the time of Russia's humanitarian convoy.  Key areas of the city were retaken by Ukraine in mid July, and, at the time of Russia's announcement, the rebels had been encircled.  So no, Luhansk was not under rebel control. 



With the encirclement of Luhansk, the Ukrainian army was moving to encircle Donetsk, and had recaptured part of the city.  Odd how with the "humanitarian aid", rebels have more equipment and men, is it not?   The whole point of that aid was to aid the terrorists, and to ensure the Ukrainian army's victory, which was on the cusp, did not occur.


Quote
As for the 'shared' trade and co-op between Ukraine and Russia dealing with military ware, you can say whatever you want to say about it, but the bottom line is, the 'sensitivity and exclusivity' lies solely with Russia.


The point is, there is no exclusivity.  Ukraine owns the technology, it can sell that technology to whomever it wishes.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 29, 2014, 07:24:01 AM
The purpose of Russia's incursion is now apparent.  The Ukrainian military in recent weeks had virtually encircled the separatists and was pushing them into an ever smaller defensive position.  This would soon lead to the defeat of the separatists and taking prisoners including many Russians.   

Such a defeat would be unacceptable to Putin.   So Putin sent in just enough troops to divert the Ukrainian military from its offensive action.  The separatist movement now remains undefeated and in fact could once again take the offense.   

It is surprising that an incursion of only an estimated thousand regular Russian troops with armor could stop the Ukrainian military.   The big issue is whether there will be direct combat between regular Russian and Ukrainian units. 

This conflict will no end soon.  It not only destabilizes Ukraine, it is emptying its coffers.  Then comes the winter, and Russia will probably stop shipments of gas to Ukraine.  Ukraine needs a lot of help to rid itself of the big, bad Russian bear.  Putin is waiting for Ukraine to beg for forgiveness.

That's my uneducated opinion.  Yours may differ. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 29, 2014, 08:23:46 AM
Well I wonder what was said between Putin and Poroshenko on Tuesday when they had some alone time.  What is Russia demanding?  Why isn't poroshenko cutting a deal? The alternative continues to appear very bleak. Was anything made public?

 I read today that Putin was telling separatists not to shoot at retreating Ukrainian troops but if Russian troops start dying in mass he may change his tactics and start obliterating anyone fighting against him.  Nobody in the region wants it to reach that point, although I won't be surprised if U.S. strategists are ok with it, as an alternative to Russia continuing to have control over the region.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 29, 2014, 08:28:14 AM
exactly... and if we didn't have a hand in it, can we get a refund for the $5b?
I'm afraid we will not be receiving a refund.  We are almost certainly in for much more than 5 billion.  Our main objective has been to thwart Russia but in this case it appears to be exacerbating the situation.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 29, 2014, 08:47:15 AM
exactly. like most people here, i'm interested in learning more about this conflict, but her posts are riddled with propaganda, deception, and hysterics.  there might even be some good factual material buried in her posts.  problem is that when a poster loses credibility, nothing she posts is taken seriously.  it's just blah blah blah.  being that she's a lawyer's secretary, one would expect her to appreciate this point. oh well...


So, if you want to get factual news go here (http://rt.com).  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 29, 2014, 08:55:25 AM
Well I wonder what was said between Putin and Poroshenko on Tuesday when they had some alone time.  What is Russia demanding?  Why isn't poroshenko cutting a deal? The alternative continues to appear very bleak. Was anything made public?

 
Fathertime!


Putler: Listen Petro, I will take eastern Ukraine.
Poroshenko: Why would you do that?
Putler: It's a win-win situation. I get what I want and you get nothing. Even Fathertime says it is a win-win situation and you cannot argue against that!
Poroshenko: Well, if Fathertime said it is a win-win situation I guess I should give you half of the country and submit the rest to your every whim.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on August 29, 2014, 09:17:29 AM
Too much politics in forum dealing with FSUW. I'd like to combine both topics, and animate the discussion.

What attitude do RW have  toward Putin? By other words their stance in the current  conflict. Well, it seems they support him:
(http://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpa1/t1.0-9/10441323_827289337304025_2474567132939468527_n.jpg)

UW and RW at Donbass are taking part in the war, as we can see in the following photos:

Team of rebels
(http://pp.vk.me/c618624/v618624520/15c14/f3N1rUBd7go.jpg)

Escort girls on Ukrainian Independence Day in Donetsk. Rebels   parade captured Ukrainian soldiers:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6700/33018055.5f/0_a4c6b_92e90794_orig)

Rebel girl at a blok-post:
(http://cs540100.vk.me/c7006/v7006432/12076/WcitR4q_z0I.jpg)

Marriage of rebels in Donetsk. Left, reputed commander of a small unit from Russia,  his fiancee is a local figthing in his unit.
(http://nn.by/image-cache/f7bee2b20d3c08b2b470f5d652f57d91_w600_h399_q95.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 29, 2014, 09:28:58 AM

Putler: Listen Petro, I will take eastern Ukraine.
Poroshenko: Why would you do that?
Putler: It's a win-win situation. I get what I want and you get nothing. Even Fathertime says it is a win-win situation and you cannot argue against that!
Poroshenko: Well, if Fathertime said it is a win-win situation I guess I should give you half of the country and submit the rest to your every whim.
What? Where did you find that? Did they actually mention me?  I didn't know my win-win theory was gaining national prominence.  Can you find out if they need a middle man to assist in negotiations?  I'd be delighted to lend a hand.

Fathertime!
Title: Ukraine to join NATO?
Post by: fathertime on August 29, 2014, 11:59:44 AM
I was just browsing the net and saw that Ukraine is now practically 'begging' to be a part of NATO.  One could liken that to getting into an auto accident and trying to buy insurance retroactive to the day before the accident. 


http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GS10C20140829 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/29/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0GS10C20140829)



Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on August 29, 2014, 12:02:19 PM

This conflict will not end soon.  It not only destabilizes Ukraine, it is emptying its coffers.  Then comes the winter, and Russia will probably stop shipments of gas to Ukraine.  Ukraine needs a lot of help to rid itself of the big, bad Russian bear.  Putin is waiting for Ukraine to beg for forgiveness.

That's my uneducated opinion.  Yours may differ.


Very good analysis.  Considering that President Obama is very much a paper tiger, and Putin very much knows it, there's not too many other options for Ukraine right now, but to inflict as many casualties as possible on Russian regular troops and to hope for a small concession from Russia at the bitter end.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: GQBlues on August 29, 2014, 12:49:50 PM
...By a eunuch who resorts to posting passive aggressively, attempting to insult in an indirect manner, rather than addressing a poster directly?...

LOL. How convenient.

Does that apply only to those who oppose your stance but not to those who support your opinions? I get these little silly warning from the board every time I allegedly do this when I respond to those *passive aggressive post attempts to insult instead of addressing a poster directly* -

So, did you get the same warning when you called another an eunuch? I bet you didn't, did you as I don't see a little green word that says "Watched" on your profile. LMAO..

Now, I'm not going to be one of the stooges here who are bonafide crybabies as I don't give a rat's arse whether I get banned or not, so don't think I'm complaining. I'm merely citing the comedy of it all.

MOD 3, are YOU reading this?

...
But it was not under rebel control at the time of Russia's humanitarian convoy.  Key areas of the city were retaken by Ukraine in mid July, and, at the time of Russia's announcement, the rebels had been encircled.  So no, Luhansk was not under rebel control....


Read OSCE's reports during the days of this convoy leaving for Luhansk. The Ukrainian military along with its band of mercenaries were still happily bombing the city with impunity during the time of this convoy.

You also conveniently omitted one very important piece of information where the ICRC reported, while it didn't accompany the convoy through its journey, that they were there monitoring at the drop sites.


Quote
...With the encirclement of Luhansk,...


Exactly right. But not knowing what the parameters are regarding how far the encirclement is doesn't mean they 'controlled' the city/ All they were doing from those positions were bombarding the city with their grad missiles. Who else do you think they were bombing other than civilians?

Quote
...The point is, there is no exclusivity.  Ukraine owns the technology, it can sell that technology to whomever it wishes.

1. Take note this discussion *assumes* there were items taken out, and if so, are of noted items.
2. *Technology* is intellectual property. You don't need to 'load' them up on semis. The product or prototype created from this *technology*, if there had been any, would have already been consigned to an entity that *paid* for it.

Again, Luhansk had been under rebel control for months...if there had been sensitive information left in town, chances are their removal from the premise would have been done on the onset, Boethius.

BTW - why is it on August 8th did Ukraine, Belgium, the Netherlands and Australia signed a non-disclosure of the results of the MH-17 investigation? Do you know?

What's your take on that? I thought the investigation were being conducted to find out what happened and who actually did caused the downing of the MH-17.

Also, Ukraine nor Russia ARE NATO members...does it strike you strange that NATO is front and center in most every development of this conflict IF they are NOT complicit to any of this?

Boethius...those cables were classified communications between US embassy in Kiev and Washington DC.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 29, 2014, 01:07:09 PM
Too much politics in forum dealing with FSUW. I'd like to combine both topics, and animate the discussion.

What attitude do RW have  toward Putin? By other words their stance in the current  conflict. Well, it seems they support him:

Thanks Belvis.    :)   I smiled but could not laugh given the grave situation that is worsening.    :(

And thanks for enlightening me that I can not tell a pro-Russian from a pro-Ukrainian.  And the commonality is far more than skin deep.  It goes to the core, to the mother blood. 

Am I missing something when I say your Ukrainian cousins simply want to have  a better life.   Yes, their government has failed miserably to do such during their 20 years of independence, yet was Ukraine in those times really independent of old ways?  They want change, and it starts by having closer ties with Europe.   I believe that is the only difference between you and them.  We are not talking differing ideologies (Reds vs. Whites, Catholics vs. Protestants, etc.).

I understand that the goal of closer ties with Europe gave the impression that Ukraine may try eventually to become part of NATO, and that did rattle the cage of Kremlin and its concerns about border security.  Yet, I thought Ukraine still wanted to maintain a close relationship with Russia even as its European trade increased.

Am I missing something?    I ask you as an educated  human being in the modern world:

1.  How do you feel about Russian military killing your cousins, and vice versa? 

2.  Do you consider the Ukrainian government to be a form of Nazism?

3.  Do you feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors, weapons and whatever else is needed to assure SE Ukraine becomes a New Russia?   

4.   Do you believe that the NATO satellite photos of Russian tanks in Ukraine are fabricated, and are actually taken from a computer game, or that Putin simply does not care what the world thinks?

5.  Do you feel that you are totally free to answer such questions? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on August 29, 2014, 01:39:45 PM
GQ, my post was not directed at you.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 29, 2014, 03:03:02 PM
Quote
«НАМ СКАЗАЛИ, ЧТО МЫ НА УЧЕНИЯХ. А НА УЧЕНИЯХ, ПОЙМИТЕ, МЫ СТРЕЛЯЕМ ПО КАРТОНКАМ, А НЕ ПО ЖИВЫМ ЛЮДЯМ». ИНТЕРВЬЮ С ЗАДЕРЖАННЫМИ КОСТРОМСКИМИ ДЕСАНТНИКАМИ

Translation:
Quote
"We were told that we are on training. And on trainings, understand, we shoot at a piece of cardboard, rather than living people. " Interviews with detained Kostroma paratroopers

http://tvrain.ru/articles/ekskljuziv_dozhdja_nam_skazali_chto_my_na_uchenijah_a_na_uchenijah_pojmite_my_streljaem_po_kartonkam_a_ne_po_zhivym_ljudjam_intervju_s_zaderzhannymi_kostromskimi_desantnikami-374751/



Quote
«УКРАИНА ВМЕСТЕ С ЗАПАДОМ ЖИЛИ В ИЛЛЮЗОРНОМ МИРЕ, СЧИТАЯ, ЧТО БОЛЬШАЯ ВОЙНА В ЕВРОПЕ НЕВОЗМОЖНА». СТАНИСЛАВ БЕЛКОВСКИЙ О ТОМ, ЧЕГО НА САМОМ ДЕЛЕ ХОЧЕТ ПУТИН

Translation:

Quote
"Ukraine with Western countries lived in a fantasy world, believing that a major war in Europe is impossible." Stanislav Belkovsky about what actually wants Putin

http://tvrain.ru/articles/_ukraina_vmeste_s_zapadom_zhili_v_illjuzornom_mire_schitaja_chto_bolshaja_vojna_v_evrope_nevozmozhna_stanislav_belkovskij_o_tom_chego_na_samom_dele_hochet_putin-374757/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 29, 2014, 03:17:54 PM
Quote
Россияне создали в Facebook группу «Груз 200 из Украины в Россию»

Translation:

Quote
Russians have created a Facebook group "Load 200 from Ukraine to Russia"

http://inforesist.org/rossiyane-sozdali-v-facebook-gruppu-gruz-200-iz-ukrainy-v-rossiyu/



Quote
В Госдуме потребовали от Минобороны РФ объясниться из-за гибели россиян на Донбассе

Translation:

Quote
The State Duma demanded an explanation from the Russian Defense Ministry aboutf the death of the Russians in the Donbas

http://inforesist.org/v-gosdume-potrebovali-ot-minoborony-rf-obyasnitsya-iz-za-gibeli-rossiyan-na-donbasse/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 29, 2014, 03:31:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykaisshSC6M (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykaisshSC6M)

Quote
Родись в России.
Живи в России.
Вступи в ряды ВС.
Воюй в Украине.
Умри в Украине.
Вернись в Россию, или не вернись: все равно тебя похоронят тайно
Вооруженные силы России: никто не забыт, кроме тебя

Born in Russia.
Live in Russia.
Join the ranks of the Armed Forces.
Fight in Ukraine.
Die in Ukraine.
Come back to Russia, or not come back: you will still be buried in secret
Russia's armed forces: no one is forgotten, but you
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 29, 2014, 03:50:05 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTT9OADTPwk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTT9OADTPwk)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on August 29, 2014, 04:06:48 PM

Am I missing something when I say your Ukrainian cousins simply want to have  a better life.   Yes, their government has failed miserably to do such during their 20 years of independence, yet was Ukraine in those times really independent of old ways?  They want change, and it starts by having closer ties with Europe.   I believe that is the only difference between you and them.  We are not talking differing ideologies (Reds vs. Whites, Catholics vs. Protestants, etc.).

I understand that the goal of closer ties with Europe gave the impression that Ukraine may try eventually to become part of NATO, and that did rattle the cage of Kremlin and its concerns about border security.  Yet, I thought Ukraine still wanted to maintain a close relationship with Russia even as its European trade increased.

Am I missing something?    I ask you as an educated  human being in the modern world:

1.  How do you feel about Russian military killing your cousins, and vice versa? 

2.  Do you consider the Ukrainian government to be a form of Nazism?

3.  Do you feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors, weapons and whatever else is needed to assure SE Ukraine becomes a New Russia?   

4.   Do you believe that the NATO satellite photos of Russian tanks in Ukraine are fabricated, and are actually taken from a computer game, or that Putin simply does not care what the world thinks?

5.  Do you feel that you are totally free to answer such questions?

1. We saw no evidence that Russian military killing our cousins and vice versa. Captured russian paratroopers did not use guns and even did not realize they are in Ukraine. We see the civil war at Donbass where Ukrainian side try to imagine their enemy as Russian soldiers because nobody like to kill own citizens. Of course, there are 2-3 thousand of russian volunteers (mainly from nationalists) and unknown number of military experts (pure guess). But there are also french guys among rebels (also nationalists), nobody will accuse France in invasion. Key factor is that Ukrainian citizens fight with Ukrainian citizens, and Russia is trying to settle the situation in own favor.
Of course, Russian people reject idea to employ military against Ukraine according to all polls. I must note that Crimea was not being considered as Ukraine in russian mentality.

2. Accusing of Ukrainian govenment in Nazism was a pattern of propaganda before president election. Now Nazism is used to mark only Ukrainian volunteer batallions, and I observe the solid reasons for that:
(http://pn14.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/0006-53c7ba50e685c.jpeg)

3. Yes, I feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors and weapons to assure people of SE Ukraine will have chance to choose their own way of life. Putin proposed federalization as a way to keep Ukraine united while preserving russian influence there. Idea of New Russia (Новороссия) became popular after civil war raged across Donbass region. People at Donbass have right to decide without external pressure if they want to be Ukrainians, Russians or somebody else.

4. NATO presented not intelligence photos but photos taken by commercial cosmic body. They are not the result of military surveillance as I understood. Russian army is moving along Ukrainian border these days but I saw no firm proof that russian military columns crossed the border. World may think as media tells but world leaders base their decisions on more convincing evidences.
When russian army took scene in Crimea there were a lot of video and photo proofs, now only words in Ukrainian media.

5. The last question sounds funny if you mean Big Brother Watch. There is a barrage of critics toward Putin and Russia in russian social networks  :) Even Strelkov (former supreme commander of rebels) expressed his discontent toward Putin and russian politics in his forum of reconstructors.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 29, 2014, 04:24:34 PM
Украина показала иностранным экспертам новейшее российское оружие, захваченное у боевиков

Ukraine showed to foreign experts the latest Russian weapons seized from militants

http://ru.tsn.ua/ukrayina/ukraina-pokazala-inostrannym-ekspertam-noveyshee-rossiyskoe-oruzhie-zahvachennoe-u-boevikov-383906.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 29, 2014, 04:44:35 PM
Belvis,

Thanks for sharing your views.  I do hope that Ukrainian regular combat units do not become engaged with Russian regular combat units.  Such would escalate the conflict  to an alarming level,  when something really stupid could happen as if this hasn't already gone too far.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 29, 2014, 04:47:20 PM
Miss Ameno,  I wish I spoke Russian.   Nevertheless, I can grasp the general concept. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 29, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
I do hope that Ukrainian regular combat units do not become engaged with Russian regular combat units.

too late
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 29, 2014, 06:58:28 PM
Well I wonder what was said between Putin and Poroshenko on Tuesday when they had some alone time.  What is Russia demanding?  Why isn't poroshenko cutting a deal? The alternative continues to appear very bleak. Was anything made public?



It's hard to deal with a person who stole your property and wants more. I would never think about stealing my neighbor's property but there are leaders, like Putin who are running nations and will use their muscle to get what they want. Putin got Crimea and at a minimum, he wants a land bridge to Crimea if not all of Ukraine. Obama and others are worried he wants more. Obama made a statement Putin better not mess with the Baltics and has a meeting soon with the leaders of the Baltic nations. This thing may get bigger than Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 29, 2014, 09:25:45 PM

Obama made a statement Putin better not mess with the Baltics and has a meeting soon with the leaders of the Baltic nations. This thing may get bigger than Ukraine.
I read that article too.  I thought it was an effort to act like he is doing something and being tough without doing anything.  The issue is Ukraine, so Obama discussing the Baltics is a strawman.  Maybe it was a response to Putin's statement about ' messing around with a nuclear Russia'  THAT statement I actually do believe.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 04:31:54 AM
Far-right Russian politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky says Poland and Baltic states risk being “wiped out” in the escalating conflict over Ukraine.

http://www.thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/178609,Poland-is-doomed-says-Putin-advisor


The phoney war is over as Russian troops and armour flood across the border

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/ukraine-crisis-the-phoney-war-is-over-as-russian-troops-and-armour-pour-across-the-border-9697990.html


Poland and the Baltic states, which suffered decades of oppression under Soviet rule during the Cold War, have been urging their North Atlantic Treaty Organization partners for months to take a harder stance against Moscow.

http://online.wsj.com/articles/russias-ukraine-moves-renew-fears-in-poland-baltics-1409270241
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 30, 2014, 04:47:16 AM
Far-right Russian politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky says Poland and Baltic states risk being “wiped out” in the escalating conflict over Ukraine.


Shocking.  Russia is rattling swords.  The world does not need such threats.

Does Vladimir have much status in Russia?  The article says he is an advisor to Putin.  Or is he some crazed old man?

If the US were as accomplished in covert intervention as GQ claims, millions of Chinese soldiers would now be deployed along the Russian border and placed on Defcon 2.   The world does not need that, nor comments about destroying Baltic states and Poland.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 30, 2014, 04:47:53 AM

3. .... People at Donbass have right to decide without external pressure if they want to be Ukrainians, Russians or somebody else.



The same option is not given by the Russian government  to its citizens residing in Siberia, namely the concept of more self-government.   So why should the Russian government dictate such options for the citizens of Ukraine?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 04:56:26 AM
http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_bataljona-donbas-bilshe-nemaye-rozstrilyali-v-ilovajsku/578183

I hope that every russian тварь that killing and every russian тварь cheering to those who killing gets its share of lead in forehead.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ghost of moon goddess on August 30, 2014, 05:48:07 AM

Does that apply only to those who oppose your stance but not to those who support your opinions? I get these little silly warning from the board every time I allegedly do this when I respond to those *passive aggressive post attempts to insult instead of addressing a poster directly* -

So, did you get the same warning when you called another an eunuch? I bet you didn't, did you as I don't see a little green word that says "Watched" on your profile. LMAO..


I wouldn't draw a parallel between the trope that Boethius, not unreasonably, used, IMO,  and your trademark 'coolness and sexiness' that some of your posts are so generously padded with  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on August 30, 2014, 05:51:55 AM
Zhirinovsky is a well known "clown".
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JohnDearGreen on August 30, 2014, 07:40:26 AM
...  Russian army is moving along Ukrainian border these days but I saw no firm proof that russian military columns crossed the border. World may think as media tells but world leaders base their decisions on more convincing evidences...
Very simple reason for lack of proof.  Benefits normally have to be paid to family, so world leaders actions are covered up.
http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/08/26/7035805/ (http://www.pravda.com.ua/articles/2014/08/26/7035805/)
http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/64975.html (http://www.novayagazeta.ru/society/64975.html)
http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3412363-blohozrenye-za-chto-pohybly-pskovskye-desantnyky
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 30, 2014, 08:04:56 AM
I read that article too.  I thought it was an effort to act like he is doing something and being tough without doing anything.  The issue is Ukraine, so Obama discussing the Baltics is a strawman.  Maybe it was a response to Putin's statement about ' messing around with a nuclear Russia'  THAT statement I actually do believe.

Fathertime!


FACT: America listens to phone calls of the leaders of countries that are our friends. Obama promised Angela Merkel he wouldn't do that again but he didn't promise Putin. We are probably intercepting Putin, his cabinet, and his military generals phone calls to get a read on their strategy. Europe is probably doing the same. The Baltics and Poland seem awfully worried. Maybe they are part of Putin's long term strategy. If Obama and Europe keep irritating Putin by poking him with the sanctions stick, Putin may take on the "F all of you" stance and go for the Baltics and Poland thinking the West doesn't have the will to fight a nuclear armed Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on August 30, 2014, 08:04:56 AM

The same option is not given by the Russian government  to its citizens residing in Siberia, namely the concept of more self-government.   So why should the Russian government dictate such options for the citizens of Ukraine?

It's not the option, it's the inherent right. Citizens may fight and are fighting to exercise it. So you should address the statement to citizens residing in Siberia, not to the Russian goverment. And I doubt Russian government is able to enforce state options for the citizens of Ukraine, you depreciate the freedom will of Ukrainians.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 30, 2014, 08:08:04 AM
It's not the option, it's the inherent right. Citizens may fight and are fighting to exercise it. So you should address the statement to citizens residing in Siberia, not to the Russian goverment. And I doubt Russian government is able to enforce state options for the citizens of Ukraine, you depreciate the freedom will of Ukrainians.


You are okay with Russia sending weapons to rebels in Ukraine to fight for their freedom. Are you okay with America sending weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens who want to fight for their freedom?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 09:22:04 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLG1-FaVyWE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLG1-FaVyWE)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 30, 2014, 09:24:48 AM
Shocking.  Russia is rattling swords.  The world does not need such threats.

Does Vladimir have much status in Russia?  The article says he is an advisor to Putin.  Or is he some crazed old man?

If the US were as accomplished in covert intervention as GQ claims, millions of Chinese soldiers would now be deployed along the Russian border and placed on Defcon 2.   The world does not need that, nor comments about destroying Baltic states and Poland.


Gator, here's the game being played.


Nincompoop member of Duma declares that given a chance Russia will obliterate the whole world. "If I cannot have it, no one will." Akin to many jokes describing the Russian soul.


Putler says, "You see? I'm a moderate compared to all those nationalistic crazies. Better deal with me. I'm good for you."


And the EU/US is swallowing it hook, line and sinker.


Russia learned the game well from North Korea.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 30, 2014, 09:26:29 AM
1. We saw no evidence that Russian military killing our cousins and vice versa. Captured russian paratroopers did not use guns and even did not realize they are in Ukraine. We see the civil war at Donbass where Ukrainian side try to imagine their enemy as Russian soldiers because nobody like to kill own citizens. Of course, there are 2-3 thousand of russian volunteers (mainly from nationalists) and unknown number of military experts (pure guess). But there are also french guys among rebels (also nationalists), nobody will accuse France in invasion. Key factor is that Ukrainian citizens fight with Ukrainian citizens, and Russia is trying to settle the situation in own favor.
Of course, Russian people reject idea to employ military against Ukraine according to all polls. I must note that Crimea was not being considered as Ukraine in russian mentality.

2. Accusing of Ukrainian govenment in Nazism was a pattern of propaganda before president election. Now Nazism is used to mark only Ukrainian volunteer batallions, and I observe the solid reasons for that:
(http://pn14.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/0006-53c7ba50e685c.jpeg)

3. Yes, I feel that Russia should support the separatists with advisors and weapons to assure people of SE Ukraine will have chance to choose their own way of life. Putin proposed federalization as a way to keep Ukraine united while preserving russian influence there. Idea of New Russia (Новороссия) became popular after civil war raged across Donbass region. People at Donbass have right to decide without external pressure if they want to be Ukrainians, Russians or somebody else.

4. NATO presented not intelligence photos but photos taken by commercial cosmic body. They are not the result of military surveillance as I understood. Russian army is moving along Ukrainian border these days but I saw no firm proof that russian military columns crossed the border. World may think as media tells but world leaders base their decisions on more convincing evidences.
When russian army took scene in Crimea there were a lot of video and photo proofs, now only words in Ukrainian media.

5. The last question sounds funny if you mean Big Brother Watch. There is a barrage of critics toward Putin and Russia in russian social networks  :) Even Strelkov (former supreme commander of rebels) expressed his discontent toward Putin and russian politics in his forum of reconstructors.


What flavor do you prefer with your Kool Aid? :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on August 30, 2014, 09:26:51 AM

You are okay with Russia sending weapons to rebels in Ukraine to fight for their freedom. Are you okay with America sending weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens who want to fight for their freedom?

I have no doubts America will send weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens if they start fight for freedom. Are you against fight for freedom?  :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on August 30, 2014, 09:28:59 AM

What flavor do you prefer with your Kool Aid? :rolleyes:
I'm reading Ukrainian media too and understand your  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on August 30, 2014, 09:34:27 AM
I'm reading Ukrainian media too and understand your  :rolleyes:


LMFAO


What Ukrainian media are you reading? DNR Gazetta?


My wife scours every piece of Ukrainian media looking for positive signs. So far, nothing like what you posted. As a matter of fact, totally the opposite.


BTW, her relatives living in Omsk cannot access Ukrainian media. Hmmm.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 09:41:13 AM
Escort girls on Ukrainian Independence Day in Donetsk. Rebels   parade captured Ukrainian soldiers:
(http://img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/6700/33018055.5f/0_a4c6b_92e90794_orig)

Tart is Minister of Culture of rebels

(http://fbcdn-sphotos-e-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/10350626_1533013820248438_1084987688356387926_n.jpg?oh=7afdf89a79c40a4f6f1b349dedb99235&oe=546C773F&__gda__=1416458752_cd2990c35b9401d2373dbf2edc3b7430)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 10:13:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trZQVKyfTiA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trZQVKyfTiA)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 10:17:50 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApOVkCZkQuc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApOVkCZkQuc)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 11:03:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fe_3aA2EUE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fe_3aA2EUE)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 11:40:49 AM
Скажи, солдат, за что ты умер?
За честь? За Родину? За долг?
Квартиру, дачу, новый «Бумер»?
Стыдливо попрощался полк...

Без почестей и караула,
Как преступленья инструмент,
Кто на краю зарыт аула,
Как молодой чеченский мент,

А кто-то в псковской деревеньке,
Оставив дома сироту,
Портретом стал на голой стенке,
За чью-то псевдоправоту.

Но объясните мне, невежде,
Как можно путина любить,
Сильней чем сына, дочь, в надежде
Нас безнаказанно убить?

Вы, умирая, не поймёте,
Кто прав. Не прав. Чья тут земля.
Зачем на танках вы к нам прёте?
Бесславно сдохнуть за царя?

Ну что же, коль детей не жалко,
Вам ни своих и ни моих,
Мы встретим и проводим жарко,
Кого прислал кремлевский псих.

Плетенчук Дмитро

(http://lugansk-news.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/RussianSoldier2.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 11:56:48 AM
Quote
Казахстан никогда не был государством. Об этом заявил президент РФ Владимир Путин на молодежном форуме "Селигер" в пятницу, 29 августа.

В частности, он отметил, что президент Казахстана Нурсултан Назарбаев "совершил уникальную вещь - создал государство на территории, на которой государства не было никогда".

Kazakhstan has never been a state. This was stated by Russian President Vladimir Putin at the youth forum "Seliger" on Friday, August 29.

In particular, he noted that the President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev "has made a unique thing - created a state on the territory in which the state has never happened before."

http://atn.ua/politika/putin-zayavil-chto-kazahstan-nikogda-ne-byl-gosudarstvom
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 12:31:42 PM
On the territory of Ukraine was seen machinery and manpower of these military units of Russian Federation:

June 14 at Dobropillya was captured BM-21 "Grad" belonging to the 18th mechanized infantry brigade (Hankala, Chechnya)

August 9-11 according to official reports on the ground near Rostov-on-Don died 9 contractors of 18th motorized rifle brigade (Hankala, Chechnya)

August 12 died Marcel Araptanov, contracted in the 17th separate motorized rifle brigade of Guards (military unit 65384)

August 16 eliminated the commander of the 1st EOM 33rd separate intelligence brigade, military unit 22179 Maykop, Russia

August 21 captured BMD belonged to military unit 74268 first paratroopers brigade Pskov Airborne Division

August 24 captured APC 23-th of separate brigade of Guards Infantry, military unit 65349 (Samara)

August 25 detained ten soldiers of 331 Regiment 98 Svirsky Airborne Division of the Armed Forces (military unit 71211)

August 27 SBU posted a video of interrogation of the private from 9th Infantry Brigade of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, which is stationed in the Rostov region

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 12:37:55 PM
Quote
Britain and six other states are to create a new joint expeditionary force of at least 10,000 personnel to bolster Nato’s power in response to Russian aggression in Ukraine.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/5335d904-2f98-11e4-87d9-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3BuDkOAfE
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ghost of moon goddess on August 30, 2014, 12:52:21 PM

We saw no evidence that Russian military killing our cousins and vice versa.


Utterly pathetic tactics!

What about these guys (http://korrespondent.net/world/russia/3412363-blohozrenye-za-chto-pohybly-pskovskye-desantnyky) ?

(to help our non-Russian speakers, I give a loose translation of what E. Vasiljeva (Russian politician) wrote:
The war has begun. A full-scale war. Tragedy knocks on the doors of Russian families across the country.
United by grief, distraught mothers of killed soldiers are running madly to and fro, agonizing over the question: For the sake of what?... (Answer: For Putin)

OMG! They see no evidence  >:(
http://www.evasiljeva.ru/2014/08/blog-post_28.html (http://www.evasiljeva.ru/2014/08/blog-post_28.html)



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 30, 2014, 03:34:20 PM
I have no doubts America will send weapons into Russia to the Russian citizens if they start fight for freedom. Are you against fight for freedom?  :)



America hasn't done so in North Korea. I doubt they do that in Russia......unless Russia starts a war with America. What America does have in Russia is NGOs to promote democracy just as we had in Ukraine. Some people here are shocked these things happen and don't like that but Russia does the same things except they don't promote democracy. Russia was the expert at it after WW2. They quickly turned countries the allies liberated into our enemies. Promoting democracy is a very good investment.


Leaders of NATO countries have a meeting next week. They are expected to announce unwavering support of Ukraine. Most likely that means we will support Ukraine with advanced weapons, not troops. We are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Putin has to weigh how many of his troops he's willing to lose over Ukraine. Sanctions never stopped Putin. Sanctions never worked.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on August 30, 2014, 04:28:00 PM
America hasn't done so in North Korea.
What about Syria or Iraq?

Leaders of NATO countries have a meeting next week. They are expected to announce unwavering support of Ukraine. Most likely that means we will support Ukraine with advanced weapons, not troops. We are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Putin has to weigh how many of his troops he's willing to lose over Ukraine.

I believe you are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. As a matter of fact you'll turn Ukraine into just Afghanistan, and likely today's Afghanistan. There are solid economic and political benefits for US to waken Europe in such a way  because Ukraine will be their headache. As for Russia Putin don't bother as "many russian troops" is a fake to justify military defeat in the civil war.
We'll compete in arm supplies, Ukrainians will die in civil war, that's the truth.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on August 30, 2014, 04:48:31 PM

Leaders of NATO countries have a meeting next week. They are expected to announce unwavering support of Ukraine. Most likely that means we will support Ukraine with advanced weapons, not troops. We are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Putin has to weigh how many of his troops he's willing to lose over Ukraine. Sanctions never stopped Putin. Sanctions never worked.


It will be interesting to see if NATO makes a move like the one you are mentioning.  I don't think they will. If they do, I think it would be a dreadful mistake.  I think it would widen the conflict, and cause many many more deaths, especially on the Western leaning Ukrainian side. 




I still haven't heard a damn thing outta of the Putin Poroshenko meeting this week.  I would have thought something would have leaked out about the meeting.  What are the hangups exactly?  Is a Ukrainian federation still on the table, from Putin's perspective?  What, if anything is Ukraine offering? 


The USA spent several trillion dollars and 1000's of lives on wars this last decade.  Russia might be willing to do the same, or maybe more even.  In my opinion, we shouldn't test them on this battlefield.  A different time/place maybe.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 04:56:32 PM
We'll compete in arm supplies, Ukrainians will die in civil war, that's the truth.

That is BS.

Here is Russian paratrooper Dmitry Gritsyuk films corpses of Ukrainian soldiers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pZL6ZVlTCWg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pZL6ZVlTCWg)


and here he makes selfies with corpses

(http://cdn.bagnet.org/4/13/191e7df8d23ff05a3d9eee53be626.jpg)

and here he uploads them to his vk account

(http://www.depo.ua/static/img/6/4/640x850_1_1000x0.jpg)

http://hi.dn.ua/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=48762:2014-08-01-12-28-06&catid=52:world&Itemid=150
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 30, 2014, 05:19:47 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuHVQbjtjvY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuHVQbjtjvY)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on August 30, 2014, 06:26:49 PM
I wouldn't draw a parallel between the trope that Boethius, not unreasonably, used, IMO,  and your trademark 'coolness and sexiness' that some of your posts are so generously padded with  ;D

Ouch! :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JohnDearGreen on August 30, 2014, 07:57:10 PM
It will be interesting to see if NATO makes a move like the one you are mentioning.  I don't think they will.   
There are ways around NATO CFE rules:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hungary-sells-t-72-tanks-to-026666/ (http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/hungary-sells-t-72-tanks-to-026666/)
http://picturesdotnews.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/hungarian-t-72-tanks-are-heading-to-ukraine-among-others-as-nato-is-arming-ukraine/ (http://picturesdotnews.wordpress.com/2014/08/29/hungarian-t-72-tanks-are-heading-to-ukraine-among-others-as-nato-is-arming-ukraine/)
(http://444.hu/assets/000_DV1697284.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on August 30, 2014, 08:14:58 PM
Thanks for the links.  Hopefully Ukraine will get the arms from somewhere to defend themselves from the Russian terrorists.  It would be nice if they got some anti-radiation aircraft like was used in Iraq to supress the Russian anti-aircraft radars and missile batteries in Ukraine.  The US should have a number of spares available as well as Signal Intelligence aircraft.  Of course, we are strapped with no-balls Obama for two more years so I won't hold my breath waiting.

Glory to Ukraine
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Isthmus on August 30, 2014, 11:51:37 PM
Kazakhstan has never been a state. This was stated by Russian President Vladimir Putin at the youth forum "Seliger" on Friday, August 29.

In particular, he noted that the President of Kazakhstan Nursultan Nazarbayev "has made a unique thing - created a state on the territory in which the state has never happened before."

http://atn.ua/politika/putin-zayavil-chto-kazahstan-nikogda-ne-byl-gosudarstvom

It all starts with some lies and propaganda ... now we need some Russian tv news reports about the persecution of Russians in KZ ...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 02:25:09 AM
It all starts with some lies and propaganda ... now we need some Russian tv news reports about the persecution of Russians in KZ ...

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/19/north-kazakhstanisntthenextcrimeaayet.html

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116965/putins-next-targets-eastern-ukraine-and-northern-kazakhstan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26549796

KZ is on the list, always have been.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Isthmus on August 31, 2014, 04:02:13 AM
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/6/19/north-kazakhstanisntthenextcrimeaayet.html

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116965/putins-next-targets-eastern-ukraine-and-northern-kazakhstan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26549796

KZ is on the list, always have been.

KZ is probably safe whilst Nazarbayev is still around but after his departure Moscow would have more scope for its current expansionist aims. Moving on KZ would be a debacle for Putin. Turning a moderate and largely secular Islamic people like the Kazakhs towards jihadists would be disastrous for Russia in the long term.

But it is definitely true that Central Asia has looked at what has happened in Ukraine and they are now be looking for options that will help distance them from Moscow.

So much for recreating the USSR, Putin's macho incompetence will ensure it never happens and that Russia actually loses influence in the Former Soviet Space.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 04:19:15 AM
When russian tanks have been rolling across Georgia, Putin was talking Ukraine never been a state.
Now russian tanks rolling across Ukraine and Putin is saying Kazakhstan never been a state.
Putin will not wait same time he had to wait between occupation of Georgia and occupation of Ukraine as his own time running out. Within 2 years russian tanks will roll across Kazakhstan.   
Nazarbayev knows that and that is why he is considering to withdraw from the Eurasian Economic Union.

Quote
"If the rules set forth in the agreement are not followed, Kazakhstan has a right to withdraw from the Eurasian Economic Union. I have said this before and I am saying this again. Kazakhstan will not be part of organizations that pose a threat to our independence. Our independence is our dearest treasure, which our grandfathers fought for. First of all, we will never surrender it to someone, and secondly, we will do our best to protect it," the President said.

http://en.tengrinews.kz/politics_sub/Kazakhstan-may-leave-EEU-if-its-interests-are-infringed-Nazarbayev-255722/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 04:29:30 AM
But it is definitely true that Central Asia has looked at what has happened in Ukraine and they are now be looking for options that will help distance them from Moscow.

Ukraine tried that after Georgia and was not allowed. Came to the point where people had to come to the streets and fight against being pawned to Russia and result is still same: russian tanks on our land.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 04:56:50 AM
Quote
With fears of Moscow growing after its intervention in Ukraine, NATO member states in Eastern Europe would like NATO to direct a planned missile-defense system against Russia as well. The calls have divided the military alliance

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/nato-considers-missle-shield-directed-against-russia-a-987899.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 05:09:14 AM
And this one is for those who aka read OSCE reports and those who believe Russian TV.

Quote
Hug is the deputy head of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) monitoring mission in Ukraine. He has been monitoring activities at Europe's easternmost edge for months now -- in the "People's Republics" of Donetsk and Luhansk that have been proclaimed by pro-Russian separatists. The expectation of the OSCE's 57 member states is that Hug will provide an objective look at what is happening in the region.

Quote
The visit took place last Tuesday, five days after the aircraft had been shot down. The rebels claimed that the remains of all 298 of the dead had been recovered, but the stench of death among the wreckage told a different story. Hug says he has seen "body parts all over the place."

Quote
As had been the case for days, apart from Hug and the Malaysians, the crash site was devoid of any guards or teams of investigators and was open to anyone, including plunderers. The rebels have even taken away aircraft parts and presented them like trophies at checkpoints located kilometers away.

Quote
The reports are just as untrue as the majority of what Russian television stations broadcast from the separatist republics each day. There is, for example, the report that air traffic controllers, located 270 kilometers away in Dnipropetrovsk, a city under the control of a governor friendly to Kiev, instructed Flight MH 17 to change its path in order to make it easier for Ukrainian fighter jets to shoot it down. European air traffic safety regulators have long since refuted reports of a course change and have stated that the aircraft followed its originally planned route.

Quote
The separatists and Moscow alike have indignantly denied that a Buk surface-to-air missile shot MH 17 down. They have also vehemently denied that rebels could even have been in possession of the air defense system. They claim that evidence in the form of photos and recordings of conversations have been fabricated by the Ukrainians and the Americans.

But on Wednesday, Alexander Khodakovsky, a rebel leader in Donetsk and commander of the notorious Vostok battalion, told Reuters that rebels did in fact possess the Buk missile system and that it could have come from Russia.

Quote
Just a few days later, rebels in the area again shoot down two planes, Ukrainian Air Force SU-25 fighter jets. In recent weeks, they have shot down 14 aircraft. Evidence is overwhelming that the Malaysian Airlines Boeing was among them.

Quote
Alexander Hug is still at the site of the downed plane, with the wreckage in sight. He says he doesn't want to comment on any of this. "The OSCE has no political agenda," he says, "and that's what makes it possible for us to be in the combat area of the rebels." He says his most important mission is making sure that the world finally has access to the crash site in Grabovo.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-trip-to-the-site-of-the-crash-of-flight-mh-17-a-983268.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on August 31, 2014, 06:54:54 AM

I believe you are going to try to turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. As a matter of fact you'll turn Ukraine into just Afghanistan, and likely today's Afghanistan. There are solid economic and political benefits for US to waken Europe in such a way  because Ukraine will be their headache. As for Russia Putin don't bother as "many russian troops" is a fake to justify military defeat in the civil war.
We'll compete in arm supplies, Ukrainians will die in civil war, that's the truth.

The conflict on it's current path reflects that Russia, more specifically Putin will turn Ukraine into Russia's Afghanistan. Belvis you seem like an intelligent man from your musings in the past on the boards. Your comments since the conflict come across as a Russian propaganda hack. Your comments parrot Putin's propaganda verbatim.

When you discuss death and dying in Eastern Ukraine, do you consider for just one minute that if Putin were to withdraw his troops from East Ukraine and from the border, stop supplying separatists that the deaths would come to a screeching halt? Ukraine could then deal with it's own problems and those unhappy with Ukraine could leave? Your King has no clothes and his actions toward Ukraine is naked aggression. If you want the deaths of Russian soldiers and Ukrainians alike to stop, that will only be accomplished if your President gathers up his toys and goes home.

We are all victims of our leaders, everyone. It is not them paying the price or doing the dying. They only wish to divide and conquer to keep their firm grip on power. I don't care who the leader is. The sooner you realize this, the sooner you can see this conflict for what it really is. Putin lost his grip on Ukraine as a result of Maiden. If he can't have it democratically, he plans to take it forcefully. He gives not one shit how many have to die for this to happen. Think, man, think,
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 07:19:01 AM
(http://storage1.censor.net.ua/images/4/b/8/a/4b8ab7768f2154e1eabcf8b762d0fa2b/640x383.jpg)

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BiPtXFsCIAAfc71.jpg:large)

(http://storage1.censor.net.ua/images/f/1/9/0/f1902f6a5401c834f1a0df728041a948/453x604.jpg)

(http://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSRUBlxvMGg9W_bgMRiA_W_KjHY6FdNpZq2ZIudBfQn-vOijmtE)

(http://firepic.org/images/2014-04/18/tul1png7wl9l.jpg)

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on August 31, 2014, 07:59:46 AM
It will be interesting to see if NATO makes a move like the one you are mentioning.  I don't think they will. If they do, I think it would be a dreadful mistake.  I think it would widen the conflict, and cause many many more deaths, especially on the Western leaning Ukrainian side. 



The West already understands sanctions don't work. Putin wants to widen the conflict to get what he wants. If he sees a weak West who refuses to take action, he may want more than Ukraine. Moldova is on his mind. Maybe the Baltics and Poland. Putin, just as Hitler did, is watching our reactions. The West should have been much harder in the beginning. We have international laws but it seems nobody is strong enough to enforce them.


I still haven't heard a damn thing outta of the Putin Poroshenko meeting this week.  I would have thought something would have leaked out about the meeting.  What are the hangups exactly?  Is a Ukrainian federation still on the table, from Putin's perspective?  What, if anything is Ukraine offering? 



Ukraine has already state they will offer more autonomy but not enough to let east Ukraine get annexed by Russia. Russia wants the land, period. They may want all of Ukraine. No meeting will solve the differences.


Poroshenko gets a meeting with Obama at the White House. Obama is expected to announce unwavering support.


http://www.morningstar.co.uk/uk/news/AN_1409290238223929500/ukraines-poroshenko-to-visit-obama-next-month-at-white-house.aspx


http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/08/28/statement-press-secretary-visit-president-petro-poroshenko-ukraine


The USA spent several trillion dollars and 1000's of lives on wars this last decade.  Russia might be willing to do the same, or maybe more even.  In my opinion, we shouldn't test them on this battlefield.  A different time/place maybe.



This problem, as was Libya, is more of Europe's than America's. But when Europe has problems, we be affected. War cost money but imagine if nobody stopped Hitler or Stalin from conquering nations? What does it cost us when we're their slaves or cease to exist?


The 9/11 terrorist attacked hurt our economy badly. We needed to respond to let everyone know that will not be tolerated. Response cost money and lives but doing nothing costs more. Yes, America goes to war a lot but we pay much cheaper gas and our products are cheaper. We make a lot and pay less compared to many of the other citizens of the world. America benefits by keeping this world stable and providing security for other nations. Imagine a world without America. We'd be back to our old selves like was written in history. Much more wars and real estate changing hands constantly.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 31, 2014, 09:52:13 AM
Miss Ameno,

Thank you for all the information you provide.  I read all your posts.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on August 31, 2014, 10:02:29 AM
I just watched a CNN interview with a radical Muslim cleric.  The cleric supports ISIS.   Frankly, the rationalization used by the cleric sounded very similar in style to what I hear in interviews with Russian government spokesmen (e.g., Russian UN Ambassador). 

Is there a difference?

The CNN reporter became very frustrated when trying to discuss logic with the cleric.  The reported closed the interview with a comment of dismay, "What a world we live in."  Yes indeed!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 01:07:09 PM
Quote
USA will send military assistance to Ukraine and ensures cooperation between experts from the Ministry of Defense.

Ukraine will receive from USA helmets, equipment for explosive ordnance disposal, radios, body armor, individual first aid kits, sleeping mats and jackets. In the coming weeks will be sent also night vision devices, thermal imaging and more stations.

In addition, support will be provided to the State Border Service of Ukraine by clothing, tents, generators for low power, manual fuel pumps, engineering equipment, communications equipment, vehicles, individual non-lethal tactical gear and surveillance equipment. Last supplies will include excavators, cranes, thermal imaging, video surveillance equipment, communications equipment, tents, barbed wire, sleeping bags, and small generators. In the future, the United States will provide more equipment and CCTV equipment, truck and small patrol vessel.

In addition, experts of USA Ministry of Defense will meet with Ukrainian colleagues to evaluate specific measures and programs aimed at defense.
The Defense Department and the State Department will use $ 19 million from the Global Security Reserve Fund for training and equipping the National Guard of Ukraine. We expect that the training will begin in 2015.

http://gazeta.ua/articles/politics/_ukrayina-otrimaye-vijskovu-dopomogu-vid-ssa/578295
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 01:29:15 PM
Quote
"The group of Russian troops reinforced by units of Spetsnaz GRU and artillery units of the North Caucasus Military District. Russian army occupies positions in the region of Donetsk, Starobeshevo, Kuteinikov, Novij Svit. The total number of army in the area is at least 6 Battalion Task Forces plus reinforcement by 7-8 thousand people. The enemy pulls the rear and supply "

Quote
"Firing positions are built among residential buildings"

Russian villainy is boundless.

Quote
"Ukrainian troops are trying to stabilize the front line and stop Russian invasion. Nobody giving up - Armed Forces, National Guard, Ministry of Interior battalions continue to defend Ukraine"
http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_u-rajoni-donecka-znahodyatsya-6-taktichnih-grup-i-8-tisyach-vijskovih-rf-zhurnalist/578300
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 01:34:01 PM
Quote
Defense Minister Valeriy Geletey declared entry of Russian troops in Donetsk. He told the TV channel "Inter".

"The Russian troops appeared not only in Donetsk, but also in the region of Lugansk airport. They emerged in other cities too," - confirmed the minister of defense.

Because of the presence of Russian troops the situation Donetsk and Lugansk regions complicated.

"We are at war with Russia and it is Russia who decides what happens in the Donbas. We are negotiating not with terrorists but with representatives of the Kremlin" - said Lieutenant General.

In addition, Geletey said that many Russian soldiers, including paratroopers, arrested on the territory of Ukraine.

"The situation is not easy, but it is controllable", - assured the minister of defense Geletey.

http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_vijska-rf-zyavilisya-ne-tilki-v-donecku-ale-j-v-rajoni-luganskogo-aeroportu-geletej/578303
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 01:56:06 PM
Quote
In the network appeared recording of the conversation between Russian soldier and his parents. While talking Russian soldier complains that he is about to be send to fight in Ukraine. He absolutely does not want and asks his father to help him not to go to fight 'for this sh*ty Ukraine. " He was advised to complain on the health to avoid being sent to war. Also, the soldier said that from his unit going 35 people, not first time and sending will continue in the future. He tells about a lot of dead Russians. At the same time military claims that in the conflict with Ukraine already involved 10 thousand RF military and shooting of the territory of Ukraine with "Grad" at nights". The man also spoke with his mother who worries about her son and advised him to write a report or complain about health.

http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/rosiyskiy-viyskoviy-rozpoviv-svoyim-batkam-pro-strah-voyuvati-v-ukrayini-de-gine-bagato-soldativ-365876.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzbuKdfSrOA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzbuKdfSrOA)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 02:08:14 PM
Quote
In the occupied city Novoazovsk of Donetsk region Russian troops handed out locals instructions on the rules of conduct. National Security Council spokesman Andrei Lysenko told at a briefing in Kyiv on Sunday, August 31. "On the territory of Novoazovska Russian occupiers continue to apply the methods of Nazi war propaganda, including instructions to residents of Azov "How to behave with peacekeeping contingent forces of Russia", - said Lysenko. According to him, the" instructions "explained that residents not allowed to prevent movement of Russian troops allegedly acting in accordance with the Geneva Convention of 1949, "came to protect you from terrorists from illegal Ukrainian army", fully comply with the curfew, be prepared for the possible release of living space to accommodate the "peacekeeping forces", reports UNIAN.
"Guide also offers to talk on the" liberated territories "only in Russian language, provide "peacekeepers" with information about the locations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, prepare lists of Ukrainian military, participants of Maidan, pro-Ukrainian community activists for transfer to FSB, for which citizens will have more food and benefits, and the Defense Ministry will ensure that "no one just shoot" - the Lysenko

http://tsn.ua/politika/viyskovi-rf-u-novoazovsku-nazvalisya-mirotvorcyami-i-prosyat-miscevih-rozmovlyati-rosiyskoyu-365856.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 31, 2014, 02:47:53 PM
For the Putin lovers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqa5qL1uDqc
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 03:17:11 PM
"There is information that in the Omsk being coordinated the airborne brigade, whose mission - relocation to Crimea and exit on Kherson"

http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_rosijski-vijskovi-zaraz-po-vsij-ukrayini-gricenko/578304
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 03:30:32 PM
Quote
Russian troops want to strike at Volnovaha and thereby cut the Ukrainian army group, which is based there. This said battalion commander "Azov" Andrew Beletsky  to TV channel "Inter", while in the area occupied by the Russians Novoazovska.

"The breakthrough will not be applied in the area Novoazoska, but to the north, the situation is more difficult there. Want to cut the army by hit on Volnovakha" - said Beletsky.

According to commander, the situation in the Novoazovsk is stable -  fighting going on on the local level. He confirmed that Russian troops destroyed the boat of border guards near Mariupol.

At the same time fighters of "Azov" destroyed a group of sappers who tried to clear barricades. In the Novoazovsk Russian officers took command of the terrorists in their hands.

"The Russians handed technique to separatists. Now they serve as officers and military experts," - said the battalion commander.

According to Beletsky, strongest in terms of defense remains a city of Mariupol.

"In Mariupol, as in 1941, hundreds of people digging trenches and bunkers. Everyone makes a huge effort to war do not come to them. Our troops are ready to fight to the last" - assured the commander.

Andrew Beletsky also convinced that the ultimate goal of Russia is not Donbass, but Kyiv and all Ukraine.

"The first stage - the rear from Luhansk and Donesykoy areas. Second stage - to Odessa, then - Kyiv and the West," - said the battalion commander.

http://gazeta.ua/articles/np/_rosiyani-gotuyutsya-atakuvati-volnovahu-kombat-azova/578305
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 03:44:56 PM
Список псковских десантников, погибших в Украине (List of Pskov paratroopers killed in Ukraine)
Бычков Руслан http://vk.com/id218913386
Гарафиев Руслан http://vk.com/id139083949 (this one has vk status 'мачу хохлов в Растове !!!' - а теперь уже сам замочен; земля тебе пухом, вата)
Долгов Дмитрий http://vk.com/id79470134
Климов Иван http://vk.com/id224796237
Кочуков Игорь http://vk.com/id132823359
Крыгин Николай http://vk.com/id34937361
Кухта Илья http://vk.com/id101934845
Максимов Илья http://vk.com/id95243113
Матвиец Николай http://vk.com/id159182194
Насиев Рустам http://vk.com/id182245175
Полянин Максим http://vk.com/id201282097
Силкин Виталий http://vk.com/id223640462
Тимофеев Александр http://vk.com/id85376579
Цепляев Никита http://vk.com/id238587053
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 03:55:10 PM
Для ватников ...

Нам нужен Киев, а не Луганск (We need Kiev, not Lugansk)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkVHK-LPk-A (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkVHK-LPk-A)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on August 31, 2014, 04:56:48 PM
miss A
thank you also for the links and information posted

it is good to see you continue to post ,

words cannot describe our familys feelings  as we watch putin unload this nightmare on ukraine
 we can only hope our loved ones and others family also stay as safe as is possible

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on August 31, 2014, 05:13:04 PM
In social networks appeared a video filmed by Kadyrovtsy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kadyrovtsy), who as part of a large armored column of Russian troops invading Ukraine. According to some reports the video was shot in Wednesday, August 27th in the afternoon.

Filmed on a phone camera military convoy Kadyrovtsy comments on the situation, explaining that "at the moment there is an intrusion in the Ukraine." He boasts of the fact that the military convoy "is not seen to the end and to the beginning."

At the same time, the murtad out of the blue few times says "Allahu Akbar" and expresses the hope that they will return home alive, writes Kavkazcenter.

One of Kadyrovtsy, located in the tank, said at the camera - "We want to tear off well those Ukrainians, we will give the heat to those Nazis ...".

Earlier, a group "Information resistance" reported that in the last month in Chechnya from Ukraine been brought about 150 corpses Kadyrovtsy.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUQQ3H5oNtI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUQQ3H5oNtI)

Interesting if Putin will pay also $85K for their heads or these ones will be free to Russian Federation?

Quote
A few days ago in Chechnya were brought another batch of corpses Kadyrovtsy. The exact number of bodies is not known.

KC sources report that for each destroyed Kadyrovtsy their parents been paid 85 thousand dollars. In this case, the money were presented by Russian officers strictly individually to each family.

The total number of liquidated in Ukraine Kadyrovtsy according to various estimates ranging from 50 to 100 people. Information about killed murtads not to be published. Local puppets categorically prohibit any dwell on the subject.

Meanwhile, according to the correspondent of the Polish newspaper Gazeta Wyborcza Vaclav Radzivinovicha Russian border crossed another "cargo 200". It consisted of a "true sons of Russia": corpses of 29 Russian Special Forces soldiers and 1 Kadyrovtsy.

The driver handed to Ukrainian border guards in the frontier point Uspenka ("uspenka" in Russian means the funeral, says Radzivinovich) paper which specifically stated that the corpse Zhdanovicha Sergei Borisovich, born in 1966, and in his coffin, there are no prohibited export items from Ukraine.

On the Russian side the border guards declined to say where the bodies are sent
last quote was published on 08.06.2014

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/russ/content/2014/06/08/105041.shtml
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on August 31, 2014, 08:12:54 PM
miss A
thank you also for the links and information posted

it is good to see you continue to post ,

words cannot describe our familys feelings  as we watch putin unload this nightmare on ukraine
 we can only hope our loved ones and others family also stay as safe as is possible

SX

God is defending Ukraine.  I think God is Ukrainian
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 01, 2014, 09:13:45 AM
Today, Lamberto Zannier of the OSCE stated OSCE monitors are prohibited from entering rebel controlled areas, and, therefore, Russia's presence cannot be monitored.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 01, 2014, 09:33:50 AM
So Putler is threatening the world with thermonuclear war? Or did he  misspoke (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/31/putin-threatens-nuclear-war-over-ukraine.html)?


Yo Belvis, did you hear this in Russia?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on September 01, 2014, 10:14:45 AM
So Putler is threatening the world with thermonuclear war? Or did he  misspoke (http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/31/putin-threatens-nuclear-war-over-ukraine.html)?

Yo Belvis, did you hear this in Russia?

Is it necessarily for me to take part in your propaganda wars?  :)
Putin said just the opposite. So,  read all sources to keep some level of immunity from zombification:  http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/747252

(http://cs624429.vk.me/v624429919/8b0/pJu0MkizN5o.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 01, 2014, 10:17:12 AM
Is it necessarily for me to take part in your propaganda wars?  :)
Putin said just the opposite. So,  read all sources to keep some level of immunity from zombification:  http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/747252 (http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/747252)

(http://cs624429.vk.me/v624429919/8b0/pJu0MkizN5o.jpg)


LMFAO!!!!


The irony of that statement <wiping tears from laughing>
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 01, 2014, 10:29:01 AM
Today, Lamberto Zannier of the OSCE stated OSCE monitors are prohibited from entering rebel controlled areas, and, therefore, Russia's presence cannot be monitored.

The Western response to Ukrainian bravery is a crime against humanity
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 01, 2014, 11:20:39 AM
So my outlaws were watching TV in Ukraine and they have this report.


They talk to a refuge from Donetsk. (Footage included identifying the woman at a Pro-Russia rally) She said that the "liberation" army from Russia selected 40 houses in her village, including hers, and shot them down for target practice. She asks: "WHY, I even voted for the referendum for them to come and liberate us. I was rooting for you!!"



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 01, 2014, 03:55:11 PM
Forgive me for posting this from kyivpost, but articles there disappear.  This is an op-ed piece by a Russian politician -

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/why-does-putin-wage-war-on-ukraine-362884.html

At first glance, and from the point of view of a sane person, the war between Russia and Ukraine is some sort of a nightmare, a madness that only brings grief, conflicts and problems to all.

Half a year ago this scenario seemed unreal. It seems that it would take an enemy of both Russia and Ukraine to make enemies out of two peoples with centuries of common history.

However, current events indicate that the most nightmarish, the most bloody scenario of fratricidal war is already developing. This is not our war, this is not your war, this is not the war of 20-year old paratroopers sent out there. This is Vladimir Putin's war.

Why does he need it? Well, he has openly answered this question himself. “We need to start negotiations about politically organizing a society and statehood in southeastern Ukraine.”

He made this statement only now, but the sending of saboteurs-separatists, weapons, and a persistent desire of Putin to force Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko to sit at the negotiation table with pro-Putin militants, many of whom are Russian citizens – all of this betrayed his intentions long before the public confession.

The words of Russian presidential spokesperson Dmitr) Peskov, which followed those of Putin, that Putin was misunderstood about the statehood of the east of Ukraine, should not be taken seriously. He talks nonsense all the time. Things like “Putin is married to Russia.” So, once again, Putin himself said: “We need to start negotiations about a political organization of the society and statehood in south-east of Ukraine.” End of quote.

Until lately the goal of Ukraine's dissection has not been set publicly, but instead replaced with the idea of so-called federalization. Kremlin's hypocrisy lies in its attempt to impose on Ukraine and its people something that actual Russian citizens are deprived of because Russia itself has not had any sort of federal state for a long time, since 2004.

Feeble attempts to advocate for the interests of the regions – primarily for the financial ones – are suppressed in a cruel way.

So, Putin is trying to dissect Ukraine and create in the east of the country a puppet state, Novorossiya, that is full economically and politically controlled by the Kremlin.

It's crucial for his clan to control metallurgy in the east of Ukraine, as well as its military-industrial complex. Moreover, southeastern Ukraine is rich in shale gas which would create real competition for the business of Putin's Gazprom.

A disastrous tourism season in Crimea, with a sharp decline in the number of tourists, unheard of price hikes for goods and services, a shortage of drinking water, is pushing Putin's regime towards the annexation of southeaster Ukraine to create a ground corridor to the peninsula.

To achieve these goals, Putin brought in his troops, including paratroopers and Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov's men. This is why he supplies weapons and heavy artillery to the east, and this is why he doomed Russia to isolation and sanctions.

These are the paranoid goals for which Russians and Ukrainians are dying while Russia itself is sinking into lies, violence, obscurantism and imperial hysteria.

It's easy to brush it off by saying that he is insane. Many people occasionally think so, including this author. But there is also another explanation.

Through his bloody actions though he his fomenting a fratricidal war; one can see his main goal – preservation of personal power and money at any cost. Before the war his popularity rating was crawling down slowly but surely.

Despite censorship, little by little the society started to understand that those in power are greedy and  amoral people whose main goal is personal enrichment.

The Party of Thieves (Editor's note: This is a common derogatory reference to Yedinaya Rossia, the ruling party of Russia) was losing its position and needed a large-scale shakeup, which would reverse the trend and restore popularity and trust.

Ukraine became an example of an anti-criminal revolution, which overthrew a thieving president. Oh so you dared to get out onto the street and throw off a president? Ukraine needs to be punished for it to make sure that no Russian would gets these thoughts.

Moreover, Ukraine chose the European way, which implies the rule of law, democracy and change of power. Ukraine's success on this way is a direct threat to Putin's power because he chose the opposite course – a lifetime in power, filled with arbitrariness and corruption.

Now, to make sure he does not end up behind bars for violating the constitution of the Russian Federation because sending troops to a foreign state without the approval of the Federation Council of Russia, as well as the violation of Russia's international obligations on non-proliferation of nuclear weapons, Putin does not leave himself any maneuvers except to stay in power until his death.

So his behavior looks like madness, but in fact it's a cold strategy for life-long despotism.

Often supporters of the idea of Russian World (Editor's note: This idea implies the existence of a trans-national community united by its love of Russia, its culture and language) explain Putin's aggression in Ukraine by saying that post-Soviet republics, including Ukraine, is the zone of vital interests for Russia.

Instead of showing the world an example of rule of law, security, development and high quality of life, implanted into the minds of people is the concept of raw force and threats. However, he achieves the opposite result.

Ukraine is already heading for NATO, even though before the war it had a non-aligned status. The actual North Atlantic Treaty has grown stronger, the bond between America and Europe has become more durable than before. Moreover, Putin's aggression consolidated the Ukrainian people, and the fight for independence and territorial integrity became the national idea.

In other words, none of Putin's goals have been achieved. The opposite is happening.

Boris Nemtsov is a leader of Russia's RPR-Parnas liberal party and the Solidarity opposition movement and a deputy of the Yaroslavl oblast's legislature. He was the governor of the Nizhny Novgorod oblast in 1991 to 1997 and a deputy prime minister of Russia in 1997 to 1998.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on September 01, 2014, 05:12:40 PM
BO yes it was agood article

pity more people didnt read it as i think he is on the money

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on September 01, 2014, 11:52:32 PM



another good article here below

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/an-open-letter-to-obama-on-the-1994-budapest-memorandum-362977.html

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on September 02, 2014, 05:25:22 AM
Looks like Putler is about to be 'uninvited' to the G20 meeting to be held in Brisbane in November...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-02/australian-government-to-lobby-g20-nations-to-ban-putin/5712752?section=world

I, for one, don't want to see our tax dollars used to provide security in Aus for this lunatic.

However the sadistic side of me is hoping that if he is allowed here for the meeting, the Aus government will somehow find ways to publicly humiliate this little man. e.g. deliberately expose him to protesters, put his seat at the end of the table away from the other world leaders, place the wrong flag behind him etc.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on September 03, 2014, 06:52:34 AM
Is it necessarily for me to take part in your propaganda wars?  :)
Putin said just the opposite. So,  read all sources to keep some level of immunity from zombification:  http://en.itar-tass.com/russia/747252



Belvis makes a point; however, it can not be construed that Putin said the opposite.  Western news sources reporting the comments made by Putin at a youth camp, reference ITAR-TASS as cited by Belvis.    ITAR-TASS reports specifically:

Quote
“I want to remind you that Russia is one of the most powerful nuclear nations. This is a reality, not just words,” Putin said.   "We must always be ready to repel any aggression against Russia and our partners should always be aware that no matter in which condition their governments may be or which foreign policy concepts they may pursue, it is better not to come against Russia as regards a possible armed conflict,” Putin warned.

The issue centers on what Putin means by foreign policy, which could take many forms other than armed conflict.

ITAR-TASS also says:

Quote
Russia will not be drawn into large-scale conflicts but partners need to understand that it is better not to mess around with Russia, President Vladimir Putin said on Friday.


I guess that means the conflict in Ukraine  is not large-scale.   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on September 03, 2014, 05:42:28 PM
I guess that means the conflict in Ukraine  is not large-scale.

From Russia's point of view - certainly not YET.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on September 04, 2014, 08:45:11 PM
interesting article on the numbers game of propoganda below

SX

http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/battling-for-truth-363427.html

The war is here. The military warfare of David and Goliath – and also the enormous information war of the same scale waged against Ukraine. The first is very dramatic and tense, but with local impact and less visibility beyond eastern Ukraine. The second one is much more important because its influences can be felt everywhere in the world.

Russia understands the importance of the propaganda war and heavily invests with money and human talent into RT (Russia Today), The Voice of Russia, Ruptly and other sources of propaganda, fakes and falsifications – from Western pundits like Stephen F. Cohen to European members of parliament to possibly thousands of anonymous trolls busy on news websites explaining why the war against Ukraine is right and legitimate.

Ukraine does not have state propaganda and should not have, because truth will always win at the end of the day and you cannot battle one lie with another.

We are fighting back with a few grassroots initiatives like Euromaidan PR, the Ukrainian Crisis Media Center, military blogger Dmytro Tymchuk’s think tank and Ukraine Today, an English-language satellite TV channel.

But while RT reaches 600 million viewers and set a record of 1 billion views on YouTube. By comparison, Ukrainian projects like StopFake.org have had six million visitors during its six months of existence.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 05, 2014, 09:44:12 PM
2600 hundred dead in 6 months:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11078560/After-six-months-of-fighting-and-2600-deaths-an-uneasy-truce-settles-on-east-Ukraine.html

how many Russian?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: missAmeno on September 07, 2014, 05:17:38 AM
Satellite images revealed by Amnesty International indicate a build-up of Russian armour and artillery in eastern Ukraine.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement-2014-09-05


Now will come along few idiots and will tell everyone why Amnesty International should not be considered as reliable source of information.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 08, 2014, 02:55:37 PM
Satellite images revealed by Amnesty International indicate a build-up of Russian armour and artillery in eastern Ukraine.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement-2014-09-05 (http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/ukraine-mounting-evidence-war-crimes-and-russian-involvement-2014-09-05)


Now will come along few idiots and will tell everyone why Amnesty International should not be considered as reliable source of information.


Only when it suits their purpose.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 08, 2014, 02:56:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaA0I6l9cY8
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on September 08, 2014, 07:41:42 PM
Law & order in Mother Russia LOL!

http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-teen-faces-castration-after-brutal-police-beating/story-e6frfkyi-1225915221763
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 08, 2014, 08:52:44 PM
Good job men.  Exposing this kind of scum
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on September 09, 2014, 04:21:24 AM
Law & order in Mother Russia LOL!

http://www.news.com.au/world/russian-teen-faces-castration-after-brutal-police-beating/story-e6frfkyi-1225915221763

Good job men.  Exposing this kind of scum

Did neither of you look at the date on this report?  It's four years old!  :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 09, 2014, 01:44:53 PM
Well, some information (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/10/world/europe/malaysian-airliner-ukraine.html?_r=0) regarding the MH 17 investigation is staring to get out. It seems the CIA used a cloaked bird of prey and shot a photon torpedo at the plane.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 09, 2014, 06:16:14 PM
Here's a new article about Russian propaganda. (I don't think it's been posted here yet)

http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/09/russia-putin-revolutionizing-information-warfare/379880/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Drew on September 09, 2014, 08:06:06 PM
As I read somewhere, dissemination of disinformation was Putin's speciality in his East Germany assignment.

I think he learned the trade well, and it is working well for him and Russia.

Much like the idea that the 'pen is mightier than the sword.'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 09, 2014, 11:16:57 PM
Did neither of you look at the date on this report?  It's four years old!  :cluebat:

soo what are you saying?  if the article was 4 years old or 104 years old, it is ok to use cruel and unusual punishment on things that shouldn't be a crime?  Before you clue me, take a look at yourself
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 11, 2014, 10:36:02 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaOYyaLEYd8#t=48
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 11, 2014, 10:40:47 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9gNYkLuu6U
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 22, 2014, 07:43:15 PM
American named "Hunter" from Illinois is fighting for Putin in the Vostok Battalion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vflmOXEyBoE … Ukraine, I am ashamed. Forgive us
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 23, 2014, 08:31:02 AM
Quote
Giving lie to Vladimir Putin’s claims that Russia isn’t fighting in Ukraine, up to 80 Russian troops were killed in a skirmish there last month, according to information released by an opposition politician.

Members of an elite Russian paratroop force talked about the brutal battle near Luhansk, a city in eastern Ukraine, in telephone transcripts leaked to politician and newspaper publisher Lev Shlosberg.

“We’re f——g walking along looking for these f—–g Ukrainians,” one paratrooper says in an account reported by the Sunday Times of London.

“We get out into the open and are seen, kapow!” the paratrooper says.


“We dashed out onto the road, there was a field, sunflowers, and a checkpoint,” he continues. “They started to bomb it — bam bam bam — and they destroyed it.”
“Eighty guys were killed,” said the paratrooper, who was wounded in the attack. He added: “I was told only 10 made it out.”

He related the story to a fellow soldier in a phone call from a hospital where he was being treated.

‘WE’RE F——G WALKING ALONG LOOKING FOR THESE F—–G UKRAINIANS. WE GET OUT INTO THE OPEN AND ARE SEEN, KAPOW!’
 - Russian paratrooper

In the recorded conversation, a second paratrooper asks: “Did they warn you straight away where you were off to?”
“Gradually,” answers his friend. “I knew where I was going and told my wife straight away: ‘Am off to war’.”
“What did they tell you, why are you going there?” one paratrooper asks.

“They don’t tell us anything. They say we are off on an exercise…” comes the answer.

The dialogues were reported to have occurred between members of the elite 76th Guards Air Assault Division, which is based in the city of Pskov. Shlosberg owns a newspaper there.

Ukrainian officials reported a skirmish with the 76th Guards in mid-August. Ukraine’s Defense Ministry said on its website that its troops destroyed three of the unit’s tanks and seized two troop carriers. Russia denied the skirmish took place.

But despite the denials, last month President Vladimir Putin bestowed one of Russia’s highest awards, the Order of Suvorov, on the division.

He cited 76th Guards Air Assault Division’s “successful completion of military missions” and “courage and heroism” — odd words for a country that claims it is at peace.

Shlosberg’s newspaper reported in August on the funerals of two 76th Guards paratroopers, Leonid Kichatkin and Alexander Osipov.

Kichatkin’s widow, Oksana, announced her husband’s funeral on her social media page. When reporters began asking about her husband, the post was replaced with one claiming he “is alive and well.”

And when reporters called the Kichatkin home, the phone was answered by a man pretending to be Oksana’s dead husband.

The paratroopers in Shlosberg’s transcript served with Kichatkin, and confirmed that he died fighting in Ukraine. They also talked about why someone posed as Kichatkin on the telephone.

“If I found the guy who grabbed the phone away from [his] wife, I’d smash his face,” says one.

Thugs attacked reporters who visited the cemetery where Kichatkin and Osipov are buried. Thugs also attacked Shlosberg on Aug. 29 after his newspaper reported the mens’ deaths.

Across Russia there have been reports of secret funerals for soldiers killed in Ukraine, the Sunday Times says.

At least 400 Russian servicemen have been killed or wounded in the fighting, according to estimates by the Committee of Soldiers’ Mothers, an independent group set up in 1989 to protect the rights of conscripts involved in the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.

Shlosberg’s political party, Yabloko, issued a statement saying the attack on him “is the direct consequence of the state propaganda mobbing people with a different point of view and labelling them enemies and ‘the fifth column.’”

http://nypost.com/2014/09/21/leaked-transcripts-reveal-putins-secret-attack-in-ukraine/ (http://nypost.com/2014/09/21/leaked-transcripts-reveal-putins-secret-attack-in-ukraine/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 24, 2014, 03:27:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG7BcZBq7Z8

Big Business Bends Over for MadVlad
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 25, 2014, 08:09:34 AM
Herr Putler is consolidating the zombies.


Russia Steps Up New Law to Control Foreign Internet Companies (http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-steps-up-new-law-to-control-foreign-internet-companies-1411574920?mod=WSJ_hps_sections_world)


Quote
Russian authorities have presented the personal-data law as a necessary security measure to protect against foreign threats and U.S. spying. But rights advocates say the Kremlin is pursuing the measure as part of a broader drive to curtail freedom of information and intensify scrutiny of Internet activity.
 
The accelerated effort comes amid Moscow's increasing distrust of the Internet and a hardening of anti-Western policies. Authorities are separately proceeding with legislation to limit foreign firms to 20% ownership of Russian media outlets, a move that risks curbing press freedoms in a country already dominated by state-controlled media.
And this coming from the epicenter of world-wide hacking.
Heh, another Russian "industry" that Putler has deep-sixed.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on September 25, 2014, 02:06:24 PM
Perhaps the zombies are actually dwindling in numbers:


http://imrussia.org/en/analysis/politics/808-the-kremlin’s-dull-victory
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 25, 2014, 07:23:51 PM
Holder Resigned.

For one day I am a Putinista.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 25, 2014, 07:46:20 PM
Holder Resigned.

For one day I am a Putinista.


I don't get what one has to do with the other. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 25, 2014, 09:20:27 PM

Russian media propaganda -

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-29368707
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 26, 2014, 03:47:56 AM

I don't get what one has to do with the other. 


Fathertime!

That is ok
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on September 26, 2014, 04:45:54 AM
Herr Putler is consolidating the zombies.


Russia Steps Up New Law to Control Foreign Internet Companies (http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-steps-up-new-law-to-control-foreign-internet-companies-1411574920?mod=WSJ_hps_sections_world)

And this coming from the epicenter of world-wide hacking.
Heh, another Russian "industry" that Putler has deep-sixed.

OMG!
Hahaaaaaaaaaaa
You forgot Edward Snowden!
You, Americans, have always being watched.
Go, read what he (Snowden) said.
Difference is- Putin openly says about control, you are told that you have "freedoms".
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 26, 2014, 07:57:54 AM
It is not about being watched.  It is about blocking sites that do not register, and store information in Russia.

I don't think Edward Snowden needed to tell anyone with a brain that government monitors internet traffic.  The Russian government currently is no different.  It, like Israel, pays individuals to post on comments sections in newspapers, in a futile attempt to "guide" opinion.  However, the U.S. does not block sites from other countries, just because that site is not registered in the U.S., or stores data in the U.S.  That is the difference.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on September 26, 2014, 09:23:57 AM
Boe, the US 'internet" does same- quite often I can't get to some Russian sources. They just don't say it openly here.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 26, 2014, 09:39:52 AM
I've never had any issue opening any site from Canada or, when travelling in the US, in America.  Sometimes, Russian sites are blocked as security concerns, but I get the same message with some American sites.  I then decide if the site is safe, or if I am not willing to proceed.  However, it isn't the US government blocking those sites, it is either Microsoft or my security programme.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on September 26, 2014, 10:10:12 AM
I've never had any issue opening any site from Canada or, when travelling in the US, in America.  Sometimes, Russian sites are blocked as security concerns, but I get the same message with some American sites.  I then decide if the site is safe, or if I am not willing to proceed.  However, it isn't the US government blocking those sites, it is either Microsoft or my security programme.
So, you're in Canada and are saying that nothing is blocked in the USA?
How do you know that the reasons are?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Drew on September 26, 2014, 11:20:45 AM
So, you're in Canada and are saying that nothing is blocked in the USA?
How do you know that the reasons are?

It is always quite amazing to me that Russian born people can live in USA for many, many years; yet they still believe the propaganda about USA that they grew up with in Soviet times, or even after Soviet times.

And this comes from those who are otherwise intelligent and know full well the large and continual lies that the Soviet citizens lived with and found out were lies after collapse of Soviet Union.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 26, 2014, 02:13:37 PM
That is ok


Of course it is 'ok' but how does Holder's resignation relate to V. Putin?...or should it be assumed that you were having an impulse control problem when you typed it here because they appear to be two different subjects ?


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 26, 2014, 04:23:14 PM
So, you're in Canada and are saying that nothing is blocked in the USA?
How do you know that the reasons are?


I also stated when I travel to the U.S.  In the past two years - Hawaii, California, Washington state, Idaho, Montana, Minnesota, Illinois, and Florida.  Not once did I ever have problems accessing any site.  I do notice that with Russian sites, my security programmes do block some as being "suspicious".  They do that with some Western sites as well.  If I know the site, I go around the block.  If I don't, I usually don't.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 26, 2014, 04:50:43 PM

or should it be assumed that you were having an impulse control problem when you typed it here because they appear to be two different subjects ?


Fathertime!   

why are you creating antagonism?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 26, 2014, 05:37:29 PM
why are you creating antagonism?


If you think that question was antagonism that is REALLY lame.  I was giving you further opportunity to clarify how you related Eric Holder's resignation to Putin.  Just because I did you the courtesy of asking you a question that doesn't equate to it being antagonistic.  On the surface they appear like to two different topics and trying to figure out how you related them together could have been interesting, but based on your strange defensive responses I am suspecting your original statement was just pure silliness, so I'll just leave it at that if that is how it has to be.   :)


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 26, 2014, 05:47:08 PM
I withdraw my comment
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 27, 2014, 01:03:21 PM
Boe, the US 'internet" does same- quite often I can't get to some Russian sources. They just don't say it openly here.


Brain, I want brain.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 27, 2014, 05:56:09 PM
For Doll

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZoomrKBShts
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on September 29, 2014, 06:12:12 AM
They don't call Moscow
 - a Nobel Peace Prize Winner

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-dont-call-moscow-theres-234603911.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on October 06, 2014, 12:41:33 PM
Disinformation campaigns, a staple of KGB policy toward the West in the 1970's and 1980's, have returned, and are slightly more sophisticated.  Here is a recent disinformation campaign, tied to numerous Russian sources, this one, from Russia's ultra nationalists.  We see the effects even among unthinking Westerners (not, generally, on this forum) who ape the terms "Banderites" and "fascist junta" to describe Ukraine's current government.  Excerpt, but it is an interesting article at the link -

Quote
Material Evidence is a photojournalism art gallery documenting various aspects of the conflicts in Syria and Ukraine, claiming to give "the whole reality about the countries involvoed in civil war" and posting the question "who's next?"

Prior to arriving in New York, the exhibit toured in Berlin and was promoted by Russian network RT, where organizers lashed out against the perils of democracy:

“In the last decades the international community has been observing, once again, a distortion of what is considered the ‘rules of democracy’, which are constantly broken by political dictatorships,” organizers of the exposition say. Democracy, they argue, should result in minimizing conflicts and confrontations. Instead, the drive for democracy is tainted in blood.

The messages on their official site do little to help viewers understand more. Below is an excerpt (grammar preserved, emphasis added):

The evens of the last months in Ukraine have almost led to the dissolution of Ukraine as a sovereign country.

Bloody collisions on the «Maidan Independence Square» in Kiev resulted in an upsurge of nationalists-banderovtsy groups on the ground who where the main force behind the overthrow of the last president. This uprising could not be ignored by the Eastern parts of Ukraine, which are mostly populated with Russian-speaking people. The residents of the eastern and southern regions of Ukraine strongly oppose «benserovtsy» and «Westerner Oligarchs» who had come to power. Accordingly the Autonomous Republic of Crimea held a referendum on the separation from the Ukraine and its reunification with Russia.

While the curator of the NYC gallery states that the Material Evidence event was “backed by crowdfunding and private fundraising efforts,” RT’s coverage admits that Material Evidence is organized by Zhurnalistskaya Pravda (Journalistic Truth, JT), a Moscow-based newspaper with a heavy anti-Ukrainian slant ( a recent article mockingly asks readers how many Kharkiv residents will survive until the spring).  Journalistic Truth is also advertising a number of cash prizes for journalism via the Material Evidence site totaling over $93,000. In other words, they are not on a shoestring ‘crowdsourced’ budget.

http://ukrainianpolicy.com/new-yorks-anti-ukrainian-art-gallery-and-the-far-right-russian-network-behind-it/ (http://ukrainianpolicy.com/new-yorks-anti-ukrainian-art-gallery-and-the-far-right-russian-network-behind-it/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on October 06, 2014, 01:03:23 PM
Disinformation campaigns, a staple of KGB policy toward the West in the 1970's and 1980's, have returned, and are slightly more sophisticated.  Here is a recent disinformation campaign, tied to numerous Russian sources, this one, from Russia's ultra nationalists.  We see the effects even among unthinking Westerners (not, generally, on this forum) who ape the terms "Banderites" and "fascist junta" to describe Ukraine's current government.  Excerpt, but it is an interesting article at the link -

http://ukrainianpolicy.com/new-yorks-anti-ukrainian-art-gallery-and-the-far-right-russian-network-behind-it/ (http://ukrainianpolicy.com/new-yorks-anti-ukrainian-art-gallery-and-the-far-right-russian-network-behind-it/)


Which more or less proves that "Russian Times" and other Putin financed efforts are repositories for "journalists" who could not otherwise find paying work in the West.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 07, 2014, 10:48:40 PM
Putin Leads State Campaign to Close the Russian Mind - The Washington Post
The editorial of The Washington Post writes about the decision of the Russia’s government that suspends the country’s participation in FLEX, a highly respected, 21-year-old student exchange program that brings Russian teenagers to the United States for a year of study.


Censor.NET reports about this, citing The Washington Post.
Read also: Russia Suspended the Largest Russian-American Educational Program - Tefft

"Pavel Astakhov, the country's child rights ombudsman, explained that Russia had to cancel the Future Leaders Exchange (FLEX) after a student decided to stay in America after his program ended - with "a U.S. homosexual couple."
The decision is one of many swipes Russia's government has taken at the West lately as tensions over Ukraine continue. It also reflects many of the strands of intellectual cowardice and cultural reaction that Russia's leaders, led by President Vladimir Putin, have over the past several years woven into a mandate to rule.
Read also: NATO Can Put Troops Wherever It Wants To - New Secretary General Stoltenberg
There is homophobia. Mr. Putin's government has engaged in an evil assault on one of history's most vulnerable minorities. Russia last year adopted a law forbidding " propaganda of nontraditional sexual practices " among minors.
There is xenophobia. The American Councils for International Education, which runs FLEX, avoids pushing a political agenda on the students, leaving it up to them and their American hosts to engage in a cultural exchange that might - or might not - involve discussion of international politics. "For nine long months, not a single day passed when I didn't talk about Russia with enormous, boundless love," a FLEX alumna recalled on social media after her government axed the program. We don't believe the Russian government is afraid of a student or two overstaying the exchange. Rather, the country's rulers fear what the vast majority who return will be like when they get back - less susceptible to Mr. Putin's Cold War mentality and rhetoric premised on painting the West as a perpetual adversary.
See also: U.S. Armored Forces Started to Deploy in Baltic States. PHOTOS
Then there is Mr. Putin's ongoing crusade against civil society and anti-corruption movements. His government has persecuted nongovernmental organizations, including human rights campaigners, gay rights organizations, women's groups and anti-discrimination outfits, passing laws that designate them "foreign agents."
From Mr. Putin's perspective at the head of a highly corrupt cronyist state, organizations such as American Councils pose a threat merely because they have integrity. The competition for a slot in one of its prized exchange programs isn't rigged to benefit local bosses; for once, students succeed based on merit. Countries such as Kyrgyzstan, Georgia and Ukraine have gone one better and tapped American Councils to administer their university admissions exams. Mr. Putin has instead decided to limit the organization's work.
Read also: Russia Brain Drain after Putin Crackdown - BBC
Mark another chapter in the state-led campaign to close the Russian mind. As usual, it will be Russia's people who suffer," The Washington Post concludes. Source: http://en.censor.net.ua/n305719
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on October 08, 2014, 02:45:33 AM
Putin Leads State Campaign to Close the Russian Mind - The Washington Post
The editorial of The Washington Post writes about the decision of the Russia’s government that suspends the country’s participation in FLEX, a highly respected, 21-year-old student exchange program that brings Russian teenagers to the United States for a year of study.

On both my trips I met young people who had been on student exchange visits to the USA, which I realise now were almost certainly part of the FLEX programme.  They had returned to Russia full of the possibilities that they could see for their own country to move forward by picking up on certain ideas that they could see worked well where they were hosted, and could work equally well in their home cities.  Were they able to implement these dreams?  Unfortunately I have no idea.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on October 11, 2014, 12:43:12 PM
Interesting article for Russian speakers, about the individuals who have been transported back to Russia. Russian victims of the war:
Груз-200 из Украины в Россию

http://echo.msk.ru/blog/evasiljeva/1386700-echo/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on October 25, 2014, 06:57:11 PM
For Putin supporters:
Recent quote from the President of Belarus:

“Don’t believe Western Ukrainians are Fascists, they are normal people,” Lukashenko said.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on October 28, 2014, 06:51:10 PM
Russians are fooling themselves if they think they have the freedoms that we have here in the West. Not even close. For example, the media here is allowed to write articles about the NSA spying on citizens in the USA. We have freedom of speech. We have TV shows that criticize the government. Shows like that are commonplace. In Russia? There is the fear of being locked up for some idiotic reason. Like the mothers who are complaining about their dead soldiers returning from Ukraine.
  We have heard reports from the pro-Russian rebels, who say the government in Kiev is a fascist regime. Russians hear that report. Rebels repeat it, and yet the recent election has shown us that the politicians who have been elected are NOT fascists.
Relevant article:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/10/28/ukraine_wins

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on October 28, 2014, 08:13:05 PM

Brain, I want brain.


 :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on October 28, 2014, 08:43:16 PM
Russians are fooling themselves if they think they have the freedoms that we have here in the West. Not even close. For example, the media here is allowed to write articles about the NSA spying on citizens in the USA. We have freedom of speech. We have TV shows that criticize the government. Shows like that are commonplace. In Russia? There is the fear of being locked up for some idiotic reason. Like the mothers who are complaining about their dead soldiers returning from Ukraine.
  We have heard reports from the pro-Russian rebels, who say the government in Kiev is a fascist regime. Russians hear that report. Rebels repeat it, and yet the recent election has shown us that the politicians who have been elected are NOT fascists.
Relevant article:
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/10/28/ukraine_wins

That is a very good article about the election which just occurred in Ukraine; everyone who claims to be interested in the future of Ukraine should read it.

excerpt
"For the first time in its young history as an independent state, the Ukrainian government is now one overwhelmingly composed of figures oriented towards a Western future. This is what most scares Vladimir Putin, who is unlikely to relent in his efforts to render the country a failed state for having the audacity to move out of Russia's orbit. Now, more than ever, Ukraine needs the help of those who profess to stand for the ideals of freedom and democracy."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 29, 2014, 02:05:10 AM
Russians are fooling themselves if they think they have the freedoms that we have here in the West. 

One of the things that makes me laugh(not) is Ukraine has a free media and open information now. One of the big ongoing battles in Ukraine was the attempt of the Yanukovych regime to control the media and information flow.

The fact that they were unsuccessful proved to be a major factor in their demise-- something Putin will have almost certainly taken note of.
Open discussion is fundamental to the democratic process -in the west we take it as a given right and expectation.

In the current crisis one of the first major Russian pushes in the east was to get control of the information flow--to try and use control to promote the pro Kremlin propaganda. Even now-- how would those in the east have any idea of what is really going on? We see people who have fled to Russia being used to promote anti-Kiev propaganda that can easily be seen to be ridiculous-- that is if you can see alternative views!!
Title: The Propaganda War- banned web sites list banned in Russia
Post by: JayH on October 29, 2014, 08:26:30 AM
The web site that lists banned web sites was banned in Russia

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on October 29, 2014, 12:43:45 PM
And the mothers of dead Russian soldiers are not allowed to protest or question the war.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on October 29, 2014, 01:08:15 PM
And the mothers of dead Russian soldiers are not allowed to protest or question the war.

What war?  According to Putinocchio there are still no Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on October 29, 2014, 01:54:03 PM
No Joes.  Just a lot of vacationers

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3b/GoGos-Vacation.jpg)

These Russians sure are dumb.  Who goes on vacation to get killed?  Couldn't pay me to do that.  How about you?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on November 04, 2014, 04:55:51 AM


Top 5 horrible fake Russian media about the "atrocities" Ukrainian military
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/top-5-strahitlivih-feykiv-rosiyskih-zmi-pro-zvirstva-ukrayinskih-viyskovih-389866.html


TSN.ua collected the most impressive inventions of Russian propaganda. Screenshot of video Myths of the Russian media about Ukraine Russian media continue to invent horrific stories of "atrocities" Ukrainian military. TSN.ua made ​​a selection of the most impressive fake lately.

 1. Boy clave drugs and made the target of rocket Recently Russian channel NTV showed a story about a teenage boy Stas, who was "tortured" fighters Natshvardiyi . The military allegedly threatened to kill the boy's father if he did not help them. Stas put pea jacket laced with radio transmitters and sent fighters to the checkpoint, and before that had three injections of the drug, told a Russian reporter. The boy "had become e point on the map natshvardiytsiv laptop, electronic targets for their missiles."

 However StopFake publication notes that the boy, whose Russian journalists took off for his fictional story, no one stole. His name is Stanislav Petrov, S. and actually disappeared Oct. 12 from Red Lehman. Since then, he wanted Krasnoarmiysk MB Internal Affairs of Ukraine in Donetsk region. Also, the boy has mild mental retardation. "We know that on 12 October the boy left home and has so far not returned. Signs: to look 12-13 years, height 140 cm, slim build, oval face, blue eyes, blond hair of medium length. The child was dressed in sweater dark red pants, sneakers. Stanislav is diagnosed with "mild mental retardation". Tends to vagrancy "- the Chervonoarmiiskyi CF Interior Ministry. orbita.dn.ua

 2. Crucified Jesus Earlier in the summer, a woman named Galina Pyshnyak, like a refugee from the Slavic, told the Russian channel ORT has about one boy, "sacrifice" public executions Natshvardiyi. "They took a child 3 years old boy, small in panties, futbolochtsi, as Jesus nailed to the bulletin board . And all this at my mother's eyes. Mom kept and she looked like a child running out blood, "- said the Russians Galina. Russian media say about the crucifixion of children and other atrocities Natshvardiyi   However, in the Slavic none of the local or the crucifixion of the child or any other atrocities heard. No video or photo frame in support of shocking confession was not, though everything happened as claimed Pyshnyak the central square in the sight of thousands of witnesses.

3. Slaves Natshvardiyi A few days ago the Russian First Channel launched aired another fake that has little to do with common sense. Thus, in the reports of militants occupied territory, a local resident recounts the words he allegedly heard from Ukrainian military. "Say thank you, we have no shot. We were given the command to destroy all ... We promised a piece of land and two slave" - ​​quoted "representative rural community" village Stepanivka Victor Bykodorov. Note that the village Stepanivka Shakhtarsky Donetsk region was destroyed August 11 this year, the fire of the "city" so-called militants NPT. There has not left a single building, the majority of residents left.

 4. The stage-managed meeting "Italian anti-fascists" September 6 broadcast Russian TV channel "Russia 24" was the material of the alleged meeting in Venice against the policies of the Kiev authorities and "genocide" in Eastern Ukraine. However, this story frankly staging. Ukrainians who witnessed the meeting zafilmuvaly as crew of TV channel "Russia 24" gives the team allegedly protesters. "We need to loudly, more emotional, and do not smile" - provides guidance correspondent. About feykovist plot shows also that no media other than Russian channels, a meeting was not removed. Furthermore, there is confusion and the organizers of this event. In the story refers to "members of the Federation of Italian Trade Unions and the committee" for anti-fascist Donbass ", and comments unnamed man said:" We, the Italian anti-fascists. "

 5. Remove from trains in Natshvardiyu Natshvardiya in general is the main character of Russian inventions. So, in late July, a journalist of Russian propaganda channel "Russia 24" published on his Facebook page post, which stated that in Ukraine guys off the buses and trains and sent to Natshvardiyu .   

Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/top-5-strahitlivih-feykiv-rosiyskih-zmi-pro-zvirstva-ukrayinskih-viyskovih-389866.html


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 04, 2014, 05:01:59 AM
Jay,
With all due respect, the translations on many of these posts you make are so bad, that I don't know why you make them. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 04, 2014, 06:00:46 AM
The Prince of Lies
Lord of the Flies
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 04, 2014, 07:05:13 AM
The Prince of Lies
Lord of the Flies

This guy?  Or his boss?


"On Monday Vice President Biden went out of his way to correct himself after saying that Russia had “invaded” Ukraine; the White House still bans that term, as if lexicological make-believe will somehow erase the thousands of Russian troops stationed inside Ukraine. More worrying is the administration’s make-believe about its policy, which officials actually seem to believe has been a success. Mr. Biden said of the crisis: “We’ve put it under control.” In fact, a big chunk of eastern Ukraine is now under the control of Mr. Putin — and it will be Moscow, not the White House, that determines what happens next."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/mr-putin-resumes-his-chipping-away-at-ukraine/2014/11/03/ef1984c6-6385-11e4-836c-83bc4f26eb67_story.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 04, 2014, 07:21:53 AM
Here's a bizarre twist in the propaganda war between Russia and Ukraine.  Russia promotes Crimean model as one of their own:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2818749/Weapons-mass-distraction-Ukrainian-model-34k-breasts-embroiled-propaganda-war-named-RUSSIA-S-natural-beauty.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 04, 2014, 10:21:33 AM
Its just bad
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on November 06, 2014, 11:26:59 AM
Must Watch-- and it is even in English for those too lay to read material posted with Russian language links !!

The Menace of Unreality: Combatting Russian Disinformation in the 21st Century


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwZZFuiiQ2I#t=18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGO8tv6sK2E
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 06, 2014, 04:59:41 PM
Ambassador Pyatt is a joke. 

Besides I thought you favored a neutral American stance.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 09, 2014, 01:23:00 AM
Fighting Russian propaganda.
Topics: was it okay to carve up Poland?
and the fake threat of right-wing fascists in Ukraine's government

http://youtu.be/ftH2_QQkw78?list=UUjX58COleIWwvc0_e9r_oMA
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 09, 2014, 01:30:03 AM
Here's the video report that debunk's RT's claim of fascist extremists in Ukraine:

http://youtu.be/dIE-a6kmung?list=UUjX58COleIWwvc0_e9r_oMA
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 09, 2014, 01:48:39 AM
Speaking of a fake fascist threat, Putin accuses the US of supporting fascists and Islamic extremists, in this recent speech. (10 minute mark) Here's the full speech:

http://youtu.be/zXh6HgJIPHo
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 09, 2014, 02:03:01 AM
Putin, in that speech says that 'They have thrown two nations into a mutual conflict.'
They- being the West. Two nations- Ukraine and Russia.
That idea is severely contradicted by the recent Parliamentary elections in Ukraine that showed the world Ukraine's preference for the EU and discarding of the the old Soviet ways. ...Ukrainians have minds of their own. Putin also implies that all of the West's news outlets are controlled by Washington. ...shootka.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 09, 2014, 02:45:10 PM
Here's an in interesting take on the  Russiganda and the puppies that lap it up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/08/russia-today-western-cynics-lap-up-putins-tv-poison
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on November 09, 2014, 03:19:39 PM
Here's an in interesting take on the  Russiganda and the puppies that lap it up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/08/russia-today-western-cynics-lap-up-putins-tv-poison

Worse type font ever.!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 09, 2014, 05:09:20 PM
Here's an in interesting take on the  Russiganda and the puppies that lap it up.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/nov/08/russia-today-western-cynics-lap-up-putins-tv-poison

And look at the comments...standard trolls all extolling the virtues of RT and condemning the vices of the West!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 09, 2014, 06:03:56 PM
I stopped looking at comments long ago. I know what my thoughts are and they won't be swayed by others ideas.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 10, 2014, 12:07:11 AM
The taking of Crimea- Putin's illogic:
This article goes over former territorial shifts, that would remove territory from present-day Russia:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/09/putins-twisted-imperial-logic-the-many-historical-claims-on-russian-lands/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/09/putins-twisted-imperial-logic-the-many-historical-claims-on-russian-lands/)

oops, I just noticed that AkMike has already posted this link elsewhere....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 10, 2014, 12:18:42 AM
No Problem as far as I'm concerned! Sometimes it needs to be repeated before it sinks in. (At least that's what my wife says)  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on November 10, 2014, 06:36:54 AM
The taking of Crimea- Putin's illogic:
This article goes over former territorial shifts, that would remove territory from present-day Russia:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/09/putins-twisted-imperial-logic-the-many-historical-claims-on-russian-lands/ (http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/11/09/putins-twisted-imperial-logic-the-many-historical-claims-on-russian-lands/)

oops, I just noticed that AkMike has already posted this link elsewhere....

Author Kirill Mikhailov is a brave man. The GRU's reach is worldwide.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 10, 2014, 12:49:57 PM
Kasparov- about stopping Putin:

http://euobserver.com/foreign/126447
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on November 11, 2014, 09:24:31 AM
Russia Launches International Radio and Internet News Network


http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-launches-international-radio-and-internet-news-network-1415656504
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 11, 2014, 10:40:55 AM
Dear Russian citizens,
When your son or daughter dies, while serving in your military, don't you have a right to know the details??? Your government is telling you that it is okay to keep it a secret:

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-11-11/deaths-of-russia-soldiers-said-killed-in-ukraine-secret (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2014-11-11/deaths-of-russia-soldiers-said-killed-in-ukraine-secret)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 11, 2014, 12:06:21 PM
Putin tries to give Obama a back rub, gets no love in return:


http://mashable.com/2014/11/11/putin-obama-icy-meeting/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 11, 2014, 12:14:17 PM
7 months in the life of Russia's most poluted city:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wuf9mY-AvXA#t=128
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on November 11, 2014, 01:39:16 PM
Norilsk...just another site of Muscovite persecution of non-Muscovites, particularly Ukrainians, in the nearly one century since the atrocious bolshevik political and social experiment began its genocidal crimes against non-'Russian' ethnic populations unfortunately situated inside its imperial borders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norilsk_uprising
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 11, 2014, 05:29:06 PM
Russia Launches International Radio and Internet News Network


http://online.wsj.com/articles/russia-launches-international-radio-and-internet-news-network-1415656504

Here's a link where you don't have to subscribe:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11221511/Russia-launches-Sputnik-media-offensive-to-counter-US-propaganda.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 11, 2014, 07:10:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTPCLZ1h0Hg
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 12, 2014, 01:58:48 AM
Putin's body language makes him look desperate to me.  The Chinese leader is truly in charge and looks like the Master, Putin his lackey hoping for loans and other desperation measures to save his economy.

Look for Putin to get slammed really bad at the G20.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 12, 2014, 02:00:26 AM
Norilsk...just another site of Muscovite persecution of non-Muscovites, particularly Ukrainians, in the nearly one century since the atrocious bolshevik political and social experiment began its genocidal crimes against non-'Russian' ethnic populations unfortunately situated inside its imperial borders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norilsk_uprising

Well put, I agree completely.  When you really look at Russian chauvinism you see very similar traits to Nazi racial ideaology of alleged supperiority.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 12, 2014, 05:20:34 PM
I guess the man with the forbidden name hit on top Chinaman's wife. awkward
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on November 12, 2014, 05:51:36 PM
I didn't realise Putler is shorter than the Chinese president until now.
The whole thing looks like he is over there to pay homage to his Chinese overlords.
Difficult thing to swallow for the Russian pride...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 12, 2014, 07:17:47 PM
I guess the man with the forbidden name hit on top Chinaman's wife.

Sorry but I do not follow.  Who is that?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 12, 2014, 09:01:40 PM
Yeah, that statement is baffling.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 12, 2014, 09:46:32 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/11/world/asia/putin-liyuan-shawl-apec/index.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 12, 2014, 10:52:43 PM
So by putting a shawl on her means that he was hitting on her?  :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 12, 2014, 11:25:34 PM
So by putting a shawl on her means that he was hitting on her?  :o

Apparently the Chinese press was all over it, not really sure why.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 13, 2014, 01:34:40 AM
Strange reactions. I thought it was just a gentlemanly action. ( Yah it galls me to say that about him)  :wallbash:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 13, 2014, 09:00:13 AM
One dict jealous of another
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on November 15, 2014, 12:17:58 PM
Putin’s Disinformation Matrix
The Kremlin’s English-language TV organ offers Britain its signature blend of propaganda and tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorizing.

Russia Today, the Kremlin’s English-language TV organ, launched a U.K. edition earlier this month. Headquartered near Westminster, the channel will beam RT’s signature blend of propaganda and tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorizing into millions of British homes.

Welcome to Vladimir Putin ’s disinformation matrix. RT is merely one part of the Kremlin’s aggressive media effort, as a new Institute of Modern Russia report shows. Other techniques include mobilizing thousands of online “trolls,” cultivating sympathetic political cranks abroad, and exploiting Western freedom of speech and the Western model of public diplomacy to advance Moscow’s illiberal aims.

Founded in 2005, RT has an estimated $300 million budget, according to Institute of Modern Russia authors Peter Pomerantsev and Michael Weiss. It broadcasts in English, Arabic and Spanish, and there are plans to expand into French and German, the authors say. “The channel can now reach 600 million people globally and 3 million hotel rooms across the world,” Messrs. Pomerantsev and Weiss write. RT says its content has received a billion views on YouTube, making it one of the video platform’s most-watched channels.

Unlike Kremlin propaganda during the Cold War, which at least strived for communist consistency, RT is ideologically promiscuous and “hybridic,” the authors say. The channel might feature a far-right Holocaust denier opining on the Middle East and the next minute invite a far-left British MP to discuss Ukraine. “Whereas the Soviets once co-opted and repurposed concepts such as ‘democracy,’ ‘human rights’ and ‘sovereignty’ to mask their opposites, the Putinists use them playfully to suggest that not even the West really believes them.” The point is rarely to persuade. It is to muddle and confuse.

The impact of such efforts in large and diverse media markets, such as the U.S. and the U.K., is questionable. In America, Britain, France and Germany, Russian propagandists must compete with dozens of other print, broadcast and digital outlets. RT segments and Web content on how former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz planned 9/11 or how the U.S. created Ebola are self-discrediting, though they will always find some credulous viewers.

Vulnerable states on Europe’s eastern periphery and in the South Caucasus are a different matter. Kremlin voices can play an outsize role there in tilting public opinion Mr. Putin’s way. By quickly framing Ukraine’s pro-democracy uprising as a “Nazi” movement, Moscow put Kiev on the defensive, forcing the Ukrainian government to expend enormous efforts to rebut that smear among ethnic-Russian citizens. As Lithuanian Foreign Minister Linas Linkevicius said in March, “Russia Today’s propaganda machine is no less destructive than military marching in Crimea.”

Propaganda is closely integrated with the Kremlin’s model of ambiguous warfare, which relies on rapid action, covert troops, the creation of a digital fog of war, and inflaming ethnic and sectarian tensions. Western governments shouldn’t overreact to RT’s presence in the West. But they can take the opportunity to revamp and modernize their own public diplomacy, targeting ethnic-Russian audiences to ensure that accurate reporting stands a chance amid the blizzard of Moscow’s lies.


http://online.wsj.com/articles/putins-disinformation-matrix-1416009418?KEYWORDS=putin%27s+disinformation+matrix (http://online.wsj.com/articles/putins-disinformation-matrix-1416009418?KEYWORDS=putin%27s+disinformation+matrix)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 18, 2014, 10:25:33 PM
Here's a great article that hopefully will cause Russians to think about the flase information that they are getting from Moscow. It's horrific. How can Russians accept this nonsense? Please read the article.

   a quote from the article:
'...Meanwhile the (Russian)TV goes on showing images of Nazis killing Russians and Jews during World War II and drawing parallels between Nazi Germany and Ukraine today...'
see:
http://www.businessinsider.com/russias-showdown-with-west-will-worsen-2014-11
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on November 18, 2014, 10:29:11 PM
I didn't realise Putler is shorter than the Chinese president until now.
The whole thing looks like he is over there to pay homage to his Chinese overlords.
Difficult thing to swallow for the Russian pride...


Moscow was once ruled by Mongols.  If I was alive 100 years from now, I would not be really surprised if the Chinese were in charge of it, based on the direction Putler has been taking his country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 18, 2014, 11:12:52 PM
Here's a great article that hopefully will cause Russians to think about the flase information that they are getting from Moscow. It's horrific. How can Russians accept this nonsense?

It's simple they blame it on Russian Character! Blindly follow no matter the reason. 

But this is what we call русский характер. [ Russian character]You can do nothing with it. I mean NOTHING
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on November 19, 2014, 01:17:34 PM
 Tell me, what is the number one product of mass consumption in Russia?

  Putin’s lies.  :rolleyes:

  Why not vodka?


  Because fewer people consume vodka.  :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 19, 2014, 01:25:02 PM
from the article, some horrific ideas from Girkin, a native of Moscow:

'...Girkin has repeated the assertion made by Putin to western leaders that Ukraine is not really a country. So, the officer told Neyromir TV last month, “Ideally the future would be the reuniting of all the Russian people—for Ukraine, Belarus and Russia to be one country.”...'

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/russians-once-secretive-commander-in-ukraine-is-on-the-air

Russian citizens -please read this.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 20, 2014, 08:46:30 PM
The President has signed the Decrees on Annual Celebration of the Day of Dignity and Freedom on November 21 and the Day of Unity of Ukraine on January 22.

Can you imagine Putin creating a holiday celebrating "freedom' or 'dignity'?
he would probably choose 'respect' or 'power' or 'intimidation'.
Putin's Day of Intimidation. I think the celebrating of 'freedom' and 'dignity' say a lot about the new government in Kiev. They have difficult fight against corruption and Russia's dictatorship.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on November 20, 2014, 08:58:49 PM
Brilliant post by the Dean of the Forum:

http://russianreport.wordpress.com/2014/11/20/russian-tanks-in-ukraine/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 22, 2014, 09:41:13 AM
Reuters article:

I came across this article. An excerpt:

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov accused the West on Saturday of trying to use sanctions imposed on Moscow in the Ukraine crisis to seek "regime change" in Russia.

Read more:  http://www.businessinsider.com/r-lavrov-accuses-west-of-seeking-regime-change-in-russia--2014-11#ixzz3JoWOxa3C (http://www.businessinsider.com/r-lavrov-accuses-west-of-seeking-regime-change-in-russia--2014-11#ixzz3JoWOxa3C)

That got me thinking about the 'regime' in Moscow. The regime is a huge factor
in Russia's war with Ukraine. It comes down to a few factors:

1- Russia is a dictatorship, while Ukraine is a newborn democracy
2- Putin's personality- feeling disrespected, rejected, and insulted by the new
   government in Kiev. Putin comes across as an immature bully, locked into 1985
3- Russia's entitlement to OWNERSHIP of Ukraine (and Belarus? Georgia? Estonia?..)

So there you have it. Point number one might be the biggest factor because history has shown that one democracy has never attacked another democracy. In this current war we have one dictatorship attacking a democracy. The dictatorship poses as a democracy, but is really a pseudo-democracy. When will Russia grow into being a true democracy? Will Russia attempt reform?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on November 24, 2014, 02:56:00 PM
Many of the  RT and CNN exchanges have been heated.  Here is a recent example.

RT:   CNN’s Amanpour show edits out criticism by visiting RT host

http://rt.com/news/208302-cnn-propaganda-interview-edited/

Published time: November 24, 2014 13:20
Edited time: November 24, 2014 17:40


CNN:   FULL TRANSCRIPT: Mikhail Kasyanov and Anissa Naouai

November 21st, 2014    05:37 PM ET

One example: 


AMANPOUR: Well, are you talking to me? Are you talking to me?

NAOUAI: Yes. Absolutely I'm talking to you.

AMANPOUR: You've got to be kidding me –

NAOUAI: - talking to? Absolutely. You've propagated the line of the State Department for over 15 years, starting with Yugoslavia and all the way into Syria.

AMANPOUR: Oh, my goodness.

NAOUAI: And now you're doing –

AMANPOUR: Have you seen any of my reports about Syria? Have you seen any of my reports about Syria?

NAOUAI: I've seen lots of your reports and in not one report where you find you questioning the United States government and their policy. And we, with our Russian propaganda, question those –

AMANPOUR: Anissa, I'm really now - listen, I invited you on this program - I invited you on this program to have an adult discussion.

http://amanpour.blogs.cnn.com/2014/11/21/full-transcript-mikhail-kasyanov-and-anissa-naouai/


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on November 30, 2014, 09:26:34 AM
Gator- what's your point??
On my TV, I see lots of criticism of the US government. All governments need to be criticized and scrutinized. RT's criticism of one news reporter is ridiculous. I think the world sees RT as a propaganda machine. Does that mean there isn't any propaganda in the West? No. The point is, a variety of news sources is necessary and crucial for getting at the truth. No variety in Moscow. And protests are not allowed. It's like Orwell's Animal Farm.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on December 01, 2014, 11:21:31 AM
I don't like seeing the economic decline of Russia or its isolation. There are good people there, like everywhere else. What is sad is that Russians are okay with their government's threatening behavior.
Russia threatens to invade countries.
Russia threatens to cut-off supplies of gas to other countries.
Who likes threats? Who likes bullies? When the USA acts like a bully, I don't like that either. All governments need to be scrutinized and criticized. And lies need to be exposed as lies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on December 01, 2014, 11:32:30 AM
BTW, I don't think cursing in public or in private should be allowed here. I think most of us here are civilized, but if someone sends me a profane message, I will make sure that everyone knows about it, through my own channels.
Title: The psychologist tells Putin was lying
Post by: JayH on December 06, 2014, 01:20:06 AM
The psychologist told what really sure Putin as he was lying

In matters of confidence in Ukraine Putin is flashy and ostentatious.
This week, Putin delivered his annual address to the Federal Assembly . The main question that remains unanswered after his speech - can be the president of Russia is so detached from reality, and whether or not he believes in what he says.

But in order to distinguish that from Putin said a plan of action, and that - populist statements for domestic consumption, requires analysis of non-verbal cues. That is, we need unconscious signs of excitement, confidence or uncertainty, which shows itself acts. Typically, such signs are gestures, body position at the time of communication, speech-specific signals (repetition, interrupts speech, confusion in words, illogical sentence structure, etc.).

Generally evaluate real emotions and moods policy can except on talk shows or interview, when journalists ask provocative questions the policy to which he is clearly not ready. Prepared and rehearsed speech, written and edited by professional speechwriters many times, there is little suitable for the analysis of non-verbal. But in this speech can be found signs of uncertainty or, conversely, stubborn belief in those theses, which says the politician.

So nonverbal analysis of Putin's speech will still allow us to assess whether he shares the ideas and believes in those theses that he was read from the podium to the Federal Assembly.

I want to draw attention to several key aspects, the real attitude which will identify non-verbal analysis.

The first stop on the "Ukrainian question." Starting to talk about Ukraine and the events taking place in our country, Putin has resorted to some dramatized his statements. It forms a pause, play the voice (trying to strengthen its sound), allows repetition of the phrase in order to emphasize the sense of opinion, speech cliche applies in determining political opponents ("Kiev authorities" instead of "Ukrainian government," "armed revolution" instead of "change power "and so forth.).

Putin aims to further counteract Western sanctions
All this is aimed at maintaining and enhancing the effect of his words and is extremely demonstrative sign. But a minute later at the mention of the fact that "the Ukrainian people still give a fair assessment of these events," Putin said at least loud voice allows the use of connectors (sounds "brain" - uh-uh, uh-m), begins to stagnate in place (a sign of insecurity).
The same effect is observed at the mention of Russia's role in international politics and her willingness to take part in joint international projects. Speaking of "unprecedented openness of Russia," Putin shows signs of uncertainty, marking time, shrugs. That is, it becomes obvious that he really does not think Russia's openness "unprecedented." These symptoms manifest themselves in an attempt to persuade the Federal Assembly that Russia is not going to stop any relationship with Europe or America.

Crimea is also not a question for the President of Russia comfortable and easy. Despite the support of the audience, Putin feels insecure, speaking about the legitimacy of the Crimean parliament adopted a decision on accession to the Russian Federation.

But do not think that Putin generally speaking hesitantly. Quite the contrary. Speaking on other issues, he was as sure of himself, as well as last year (remember that the President of the Russian Federation is obliged to act with the Federal Assembly each year). The main difference - this year, Putin had fewer negative emotions, talking about internal problems.

See also: And I dreamed Vova Putin: introspective analysis of sleep
But his behavior during the announcement of the talk of the combat capability of the Russian army shows that in this respect he feels confident, determined to act firmly and sincerely believes in the strength, combat capability and modern Armed Forces.

The same confidence manifested and articulating plans for internal reorganization of Russia, the creation of import substitution programs and the return of capital amnesty program.

Analyzing its performance to the following conclusions:

1. Putin is confident in the strength and power of Russia's defense capability. Internally, he is ready to play the card of power solutions to both domestic and foreign policy issues.

2. Putin is aimed at countering further sanctions of the West and sees no reason to change course in this matter.

3. Putin does not believe that Russia will remain an equal participant in international relations. It is angry, but he's ready for this isolation.

4. With regard to Ukraine, the confidence Putin is flashy and ostentatious.

In conclusion, we note that filling the message, Putin is not primarily thinking about the effect that will make his speech in general, and about the effect it will produce on his inner circle.

http://ru.tsn.ua/blogi/themes/psihology/o-chem-vret-putin-399875.html
Title: NATO began to fight anti-Ukrainian propaganda by Kremlin
Post by: JayH on December 08, 2014, 05:46:33 PM
NATO began to fight anti-Ukrainian propaganda Kremlin

NATO began to fight against Russian propaganda, which calls the Ukrainian "fascists" and supporters of neo-Nazi movements. NATO began to make his own movies, which rozvinchuyutsya Russian myths.


http://zik.ua/ua/news/2014/12/08/nato_pochav_borotysya_z_antyukrainskoyu_propagandoyu_kremlya_547175

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLLGq1O5XLM&index=20&list=UUHlEaKbepQ_S9iIoZPKVQew
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on December 14, 2014, 11:53:33 AM
Entertaining? Yes. But are these sad realities in Russia today?

http://www.worldaffairsjournal.org/article/land-magical-thinking-inside-putin%E2%80%99s-russia
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 15, 2014, 02:39:37 AM
Brilliant, photo guy.

My wife missed most of her driver school classes some years ago. But then she received a call from the school offering her the opportunity to take the exam anyway, with a guarantee that she would pass. I've written here and other places on the number of thankfully small accidents that followed, including the "fender bender" that occurred on the way home from picking up her license. A few winters ago, after one mishap in which her mother had to be taken to the hospital, a Moscow police officer suggested that she just turn in her license and use the Metro. That led to me, finally, having a hand in her driver's education. Thankfully things are getting better.

Most everything in that article rang familiar. Some rang really, really loud.

One topic that is changing is of the military draft. Russia is upgrading forces and equipment and there has been of late a very purposeful concentration in honing the quality of troops. The hazing, selling conscripts body organs for profit, etc, have been dealt with by Moscow and the Russian Army is far more professional, and less hazardous for conscripts, than before.

The road police are also under a great deal of scrutiny and now are supposed to video every traffic ticket issued. That has begun to make a dent in that type of corruption.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 15, 2014, 12:49:21 PM
From the link provided by PhotoGuy:


"There is a spate of prime-time documentaries [featuring] secret service men who inform the audience about the psychic weapons they have developed. The Russian military has “sleepers,” psychics who can go into a trance and . . . penetrate the minds of foreign statesmen . . . One has entered the mind of the US president . . .
 
Well, now that I think about it . . ."

and the solution is
"So what we need to do is this. Start with a little bit of George Kennan’s Containment Policy. Leaven that with a large dose of Reagan Doctrine, arming the dickens out of Ukraine, Georgia, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, and any other sane polity feeling pressure from the Evil Post-Empire. Mix these with the black humor of Peter Pomerantsev’s Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible. And sit back and watch the Putin regime rot."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on December 15, 2014, 01:33:18 PM
As a follow-up- I've just started reading a Kindle version of
Peter Pomerantsev's book. ...really interesting. $14.49 at amazon.com

Title: Putin 2014: crystallization of hatred
Post by: JayH on December 19, 2014, 12:16:46 AM
An analysis of Putin's body language during press conference   yesterday-- makes interesting reading-again. The link will get you to the whole story--only a very small part is contained here( I have been instructed not to post whole articles)
Kim Valentin psychologist, an expert on nonverbal communication
Putin 2014: crystallization of hatred

Severity level judgments Vladimir Putin suggests crystallization of his convictions.
On the eve passed the final press conference of Vladimir Putin - more than three hours, Russian President answered questions from journalists. Pleased with the number of questions openly negative connotation.

However, on their own answers have little to say about the true intentions of temporary and permanent master of the Kremlin. Much more informative they are, if you connect the analysis of non-verbal aspects of communication. In this case we are talking about the nature of the gestures, intonations, autonomic reactions and characteristics of the formation of speech - and on this press conference, Putin was a lot .

What I recommend to pay attention to:

1. Cough. Rather slight cough during answers to questions. This press conference broke all records for the number of coughs. Cough, if it is repeated often said that a person is experiencing the following possible reactions: fear of disclosure of fraud, fear of a possible mistrust towards the sonicated information they anger. Vladimir Putin began to cough at the beginning of the speech and stayed until the middle of the event. However, in the second half of the conference when answering questions most unpleasant cough found to go beyond the president's self-control. The most "coughing" themes for Putin were questions about the fall of the ruble, reduced oil prices, the growth of reserves of the Central Bank, with mention of the fact "Bashneft".

In the end, you can draw the following conclusions:

- Putin is afraid of a palace coup.
- firmly and unequivocally convinced in his own right.
- became worse control myself. Less restrained.
- internal problems make him much experience, while arguments about geopolitical nuances give confidence and faith in their own strength and plans.
- crystallization of hatred. Putin was just as hard in the estimates of Ukrainian events and the role of the US and NATO in their provoking. And in some respects he had the desire to go to the end.
http://ru.tsn.ua/blogi/themes/psihology/putin-2014-kristallizaciya-nenavisti-401878.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 19, 2014, 04:44:30 AM
The biggest take away, don't do botox.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on December 19, 2014, 11:02:31 PM
In order to fight Russian propaganda, I urge the central government in Kiev to send humanitarian convoys to the rebel areas, especially the smaller villages. I've just read an article describing the conditions there, the lack of food...starvation. This kind offering would have a powerful positive effect, during the holiday season. It would be the best form of public relations. It is the Christian thing to do, and could arrive as a truck convoy, similar in appearance to the white trucks from east. Get the Red Cross and OSCE monitors involved. Frame it as a major media event...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 19, 2014, 11:53:34 PM
Russian volunteer fighters in Donbas believe that they are fighting a "holy war" against the West.  It's not easy to overcome such a mindset.


http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-30518054
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 20, 2014, 08:44:06 AM
PG, this is a siege.  You don't do that.

AC, people abandon their creeds all the time, when they experience a more powerful set of ideals.  See Whittaker Chambers.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on December 20, 2014, 10:18:37 AM
Russian volunteer fighters in Donbas believe that they are fighting a "holy war" against the West.  It's not easy to overcome such a mindset


 Yes it is easy!  BTW I read that UA has signed a deal with Barrett Firearms! They make some of the best 50 Cal sniper rifles around. I shot one several years ago and hit the end of a 55 gallon oil drum at 1 measured mile. It's an amazing piece of hardware that should work well against the invading Moskovi.

 The Browning 50 and the 338 Lapua will pop thru the body armor at long ranges.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 20, 2014, 11:36:38 AM
Quote
In order to fight Russian propaganda, I urge the central government in Kiev to send humanitarian convoys to the rebel areas, especially the smaller villages. I've just read an article describing the conditions there, the lack of food...starvation. This kind offering would have a powerful positive effect, during the holiday season. It would be the best form of public relations. It is the Christian thing to do, and could arrive as a truck convoy, similar in appearance to the white trucks from east. Get the Red Cross and OSCE monitors involved. Frame it as a major media event...

To give you an idea of the extent of the massive propaganda war in this conflict, they have done just that, and more than once. Several times I have sent stories to network editors in the USA who have declined to use the material. Of late I am often told that the war in Eastern Ukraine is "no longer a story of interest" to American media consumers.

Specifically on the humanitarian convoys, a Ukrainian convoy beat the Russian convoy that so famously led the Red Cross on a wild goose chase. Although only about half the trucks were involved, the Ukrainian trucks were full; as opposed to the half to mostly empty Russian trucks.

The biggest danger now to Ukrainian convoys is the fact that the Russians control the skies in Eastern Ukraine and without air support those types of movements are sitting ducks. Many of the airplanes and helos that Kiev has sent into the air have been shot out of the sky by the more modernized air defense systems employed by the Russians in the region.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on December 20, 2014, 08:27:59 PM
Mendy,

Could you please explain something that has been puzzling me for months.  With the refusal of Russia to admit their troops and equipment  are in East Ukriane, how is it that for months there have been very few reports corroborated with photos (until recently).  It appears there are thousands of reporters there and yet hardly any photos of proof.

This provided ammunition for the pro-Russian's for months because of the lack of photos.  Are all these reporters sitting in one place drinking beer and playing cards?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 21, 2014, 12:51:53 PM
Beer? maybe. Cards? no time for it.

The evidence is there, but you have to look for it. At the beginning of the conflict there were lots of reporters in the fighting zones. The rebels forces however quickly put a stop to that, except for Russian news agencies like LifeNews, etc. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/separatists-in-eastern-ukraine-target-journalists-in-all-out-information-war/2014/05/06/d8270ba6-5f83-4b9a-9ebe-a29ba95823e1_story.html

Deaths of journalists, including Russian reporters, have been recorded in the conflict. http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/23/more-reporters-die-in-eastern-ukraine/  The latest death of which I am aware was RT reporter Andrei Stenin whose body was found in mid-September.

So with few exceptions, most reporters from Western news agencies are on or near the areas still controlled by the Ukrainian government, and obviously the Russians are not sending troops and equipment thru Ukrainian controlled areas. Subscribe to VICE news on YouTube as they on occasion have gotten past checkpoints. The famous self appointed defense minister of Donetsk, KGB/FSB operative  Igor Strelkov, signed a decree banning reporters (except Russian) from the region and banned any filming or recording.

Human Rights Watch has dubbed Eastern Ukraine as a “trap for journalists.” They are right. Reporters working in the region are required to wear protective vests and those vests are labeled: Press or пресса for publications and radio, or TV or TB for television. In reality, while they are supposed to let combatants know who is not a target, instead those have become like painted targets on the chest.

http://en.rsf.org/ukraine-summary-of-attacks-on-media-12-05-2014,46265.html

There is a lot of info that simply doesn't make it into Western news cycles. YouTube videos that show any evidence of Russian movement inside Ukraine are usually deleted rather swiftly. The best source of photos from professional media is Twitter and most of those never make it to main stream media.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 21, 2014, 01:02:44 PM
Mendy,

Could you please explain something that has been puzzling me for months.  With the refusal of Russia to admit their troops and equipment  are in East Ukriane, how is it that for months there have been very few reports corroborated with photos (until recently).  It appears there are thousands of reporters there and yet hardly any photos of proof.


The proof is what Mendy just posted.  Putin's Russia probably has more dead or disappeared journalists than any other modern nation.  You did not think that sort of thing would be different in Eastern Ukraine, did you?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on December 21, 2014, 01:16:19 PM
Looks like Canada's now getting equal billing with the US on Russia's 'you're off my Christmas card list' propaganda marquee...

Russia Denounces New Round of Western Sanctions

..."MOSCOW — Russia on Saturday derided the United States and Canada for imposing yet another round of economic sanctions over the Kremlin’s policies in Ukraine, and pointed at President Obama’s recent decision to normalize relations with Cuba as proof that sanctions were ultimately pointless."...

...“For those who still are under the illusion that everyone in the world should live as specified by Washington and Ottawa,” Mr. Lukashevich, the Foreign Ministry spokesman, said, “Remember: Crimea is a primordial and integral part of Russia. The residents of the Crimea are now together with all the Russian people, who never buckled or caved in to external pressure.”...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/21/world/europe/russia-denounces-new-round-of-western-sanctions.html?_r=0

...“For those who still are under the illusion that everyone in the world should live as specified by Washington and Ottawa,”...

Hear ye, Hear ye, Ottawa decrees that the world population will consume pancakes with maple syrup and from this day forth play hockey. Further, anyone caught not wearing their regulation issue Canadian flag wool tuque will be deported to Tuktoyaktuk, Canada's Syberia, for reeducation without a Tim Horton's coffee card.  :rolleyes:

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 21, 2014, 01:28:47 PM
Hear ye, Hear ye, Ottawa decrees that the world population will consume pancakes with maple syrup and from this day forth play hockey. Further, anyone caught not wearing their regulation issue Canadian flag wool tuque will be deported to Tuktoyaktuk, Canada's Syberia, for reeducation without a Tim Horton's coffee card.  :rolleyes:

 :shock:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on December 21, 2014, 01:47:54 PM
Beer? maybe. Cards? no time for it.

The evidence is there, but you have to look for it. At the beginning of the conflict there were lots of reporters in the fighting zones. The rebels forces however quickly put a stop to that, except for Russian news agencies like LifeNews, etc. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/separatists-in-eastern-ukraine-target-journalists-in-all-out-information-war/2014/05/06/d8270ba6-5f83-4b9a-9ebe-a29ba95823e1_story.html

Deaths of journalists, including Russian reporters, have been recorded in the conflict. http://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/23/more-reporters-die-in-eastern-ukraine/  The latest death of which I am aware was RT reporter Andrei Stenin whose body was found in mid-September.

So with few exceptions, most reporters from Western news agencies are on or near the areas still controlled by the Ukrainian government, and obviously the Russians are not sending troops and equipment thru Ukrainian controlled areas. Subscribe to VICE news on YouTube as they on occasion have gotten past checkpoints. The famous self appointed defense minister of Donetsk, KGB/FSB operative  Igor Strelkov, signed a decree banning reporters (except Russian) from the region and banned any filming or recording.

Human Rights Watch has dubbed Eastern Ukraine as a “trap for journalists.” They are right. Reporters working in the region are required to wear protective vests and those vests are labeled: Press or пресса for publications and radio, or TV or TB for television. In reality, while they are supposed to let combatants know who is not a target, instead those have become like painted targets on the chest.

http://en.rsf.org/ukraine-summary-of-attacks-on-media-12-05-2014,46265.html

There is a lot of info that simply doesn't make it into Western news cycles. YouTube videos that show any evidence of Russian movement inside Ukraine are usually deleted rather swiftly. The best source of photos from professional media is Twitter and most of those never make it to main stream media.

Your explanation seems to support the notion that Russian has won/is winning the propaganda war.  Public opinion in the US is mostly influenced by the mainstream media.  While Russia made ridiculous claims that no Russian soldiers or equipment was in East Ukraine or Crimea, there was little to no proof in the Western Media that proved otherwise.  It is no wonder that many Americans did not take an interest in the conflict or see the lies put out by Kremlin controlled media.

The question in my mind is it the blame of the mainstream media or the US government for not producing evidence to counter the lies and inform the public of truths supported by photos, intelligence, etc.  Even Fox News spends days on topics that should have been short stories.  You would think they would have been able to capture the Facebook, Tweets, and UTube reports that exposed the lies of the Kremlin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 21, 2014, 01:57:12 PM
The question in my mind is it the blame of the mainstream media or the US government for not producing evidence to counter the lies and inform the public of truths supported by photos, intelligence, etc.  Even Fox News spends days on topics that should have been short stories.  You would think they would have been able to capture the Facebook, Tweets, and UTube reports that exposed the lies of the Kremlin.

Calmissile, obviously ignoring it or pretending that it does not exist has been an active and conscious part of Obama's "diplomacy" all along.  Just refer back to the events at Benghazi for your prime example. 

I would be interested to hear more of the opinions of journalist Mendeleyev on Obama's diplomacy in regards to Russia and Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 21, 2014, 03:47:55 PM
Calm, visit my Twitter and perhaps you may wish to follow some of the folk that I follow, and follow me as well.. In no time, you'll have more info than you can handle.

Mendeleyev Journal@russianreport

Warning: there are plenty of Russian (pro) sources there as well. Balance is good.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on December 21, 2014, 03:52:04 PM
Calm, visit my Twitter and perhaps you may wish to follow some of the folk that I follow, and follow me as well.. In no time, you'll have more info than you can handle.

Mendeleyev Journal@russianreport

Warning: there are plenty of Russian (pro) sources there as well. Balance is good.

Thanks Mendy.   I have never used Twitter, but guess I will have to succumb to the modern age.   :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 21, 2014, 06:06:35 PM
Calm, visit my Twitter and perhaps you may wish to follow some of the folk that I follow, and follow me as well.. In no time, you'll have more info than you can handle.

Mendeleyev Journal@russianreport

Warning: there are plenty of Russian (pro) sources there as well. Balance is good.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6mPMmZQqxs
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on December 21, 2014, 06:10:54 PM
The Moscow Times website is down:  Apparently by cyber attack.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 22, 2014, 02:16:42 AM
AC, you cannot understand an issue completely until you know both sides. To know both sides does not mean compromise, well, at least if you know yourself and you have values that matter, which I do.

We point fingers at the domination of Russia media, from television to radio to print, and we rightly call out propaganda when we see/hear it. At the same time, it would be wrong to do the same thing in reverse. One cannot understand the other side if the other side is not engaged. I make no apology for such engagements. A wise man once said it is best to hold friends close...and enemies even closer.

How can a journalist write or broadcast what the "other side" thinks if he doesn't ever get in the other side's face and ask questions? Frankly, some of my best leads come from official Kremlin sources. I am intelligent enough to understand democratic values, and to discern when dictatorial values are presented with a sugar coating.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 22, 2014, 06:31:00 AM
That is like saying you cannot judge or sentence a rapist unless you know both sides.

There is no escape for Russia if it keeps Putin.  Justice is coming
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 22, 2014, 07:48:54 AM
Quote
That is like saying you cannot judge or sentence a rapist unless you know both sides.

In a civilized society, a trial is heard on such issues as you make for an example. A judge and jury does listen to both sides. Then sentences.

You might wish to review the correct order of things, in spite of your passionate anger.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 22, 2014, 08:31:49 AM
AC, you cannot understand an issue completely until you know both sides. To know both sides does not mean compromise, well, at least if you know yourself and you have values that matter, which I do.

We point fingers at the domination of Russia media, from television to radio to print, and we rightly call out propaganda when we see/hear it. At the same time, it would be wrong to do the same thing in reverse. One cannot understand the other side if the other side is not engaged. I make no apology for such engagements. A wise man once said it is best to hold friends close...and enemies even closer.

How can a journalist write or broadcast what the "other side" thinks if he doesn't ever get in the other side's face and ask questions? Frankly, some of my best leads come from official Kremlin sources. I am intelligent enough to understand democratic values, and to discern when dictatorial values are presented with a sugar coating.

Good response.  Some don't like Doll or fathertime posting here and I welcome them (although it gets monotonous) as examples.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 22, 2014, 09:47:17 AM
In a civilized society, a trial is heard on such issues as you make for an example. A judge and jury does listen to both sides. Then sentences.

You might wish to review the correct order of things, in spite of your passionate anger.

We have a right to be angry as do the Russians who lost only sons and Russians who have had life savings wiped out.  Remember that when you speak of honest Russians. Win win
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on December 22, 2014, 10:01:32 AM
That is like saying you cannot judge or sentence a rapist unless you know both sides.



You mean like the UVA rape case? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 22, 2014, 10:31:58 PM

You mean like the UVA rape case?

About as funny and as tactful as a Kermit Gosnell budget abortion
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 23, 2014, 01:33:11 AM
About as funny and as tactful as a Kermit Gosnell budget abortion

Don't you know brother?  "Liberals" believe killing an unborn baby is a woman's right.

But heaven forbid if the CIA uses enhanced interrogation methods on adult terrorists.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on December 23, 2014, 01:37:31 AM
Don't you know brother?  "Liberals" believe killing an unborn baby is a woman's right.

But heaven forbid if the CIA uses enhanced interrogation methods on adult terrorists.


LT, is your life that bad you need to create fake accounts just so you have someone to talk to you? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 23, 2014, 06:03:59 AM

LT, is your life that bad you need to create fake accounts just so you have someone to talk to you?

No.  My life is so bad that I have to swift through comments from real geniuses like you to read the gems from him.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on December 23, 2014, 08:49:50 AM
That is like saying you cannot judge or sentence a rapist unless you know both sides.

There is no escape for Russia if it keeps Putin.  Justice is coming


Dude!!! What is your obsession?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on December 23, 2014, 09:55:45 AM
A ramped up edict issued by Medvedev as reported by RT...

Ukraine has been turned into Russia’s potential enemy – Medvedev

Russian PM Dmitry Medvedev thinks the recent unfriendly moves by Presidents Poroshenko and Obama effectively turn Ukraine into Russia’s potential enemy. It will also “poison” relations with the US for decades to come.

On Facebook, Medvedev commented on the Ukraine Freedom Act 2014 signed by Barack Obama last week, and on the Ukrainian parliament’s intention to cancel a national law forbidding them to join military blocs.

“As in the case with the Jackson-Vanik amendment, our relations with America will be poisoned for decades to come,” he added.

Medvedev also underlined that if Ukraine changed its out-of-bloc status, it would in essence be an application to join NATO, rendering Ukraine Russia’s potential enemy.

“Both these decisions would have extremely negative consequences,” the Russian Prime Minister wrote, adding that Russia would have to react to such hostile steps.

Last week, Prime Minister Medvedev published an article, in which he warned Ukraine that EU economic policy is pushing them into a full scale crisis.

“The EU needs Ukraine primarily as a source of raw materials and definitely as a new market for European companies,” he wrote. “No one is hurrying to invite Ukraine to the common European table as an equal partner. They aren’t even offering a side chair; they are deliberately putting this country in a position of a girl who goes on dates that never end in marriage,” the Russian PM said.

In the same article, Medvedev reviewed the history of Russian-Ukrainian relations and described his view on the future relations between nations that, in the PM’s words, “don’t have and never will have real borders between them.”

http://rt.com/politics/216967-medvedev-ukraine-russia-usa/

The last paragraph ..."Medvedev reviewed the history of Russian-Ukrainian relations and described his view on the future relations between nations that in the PM’s words, “don’t have and never will have real borders between them.”...is particularly revealing in that, at least in his (Medvedev's) view Ukraine's borders, or in other words sovereignty, doesn't exist.

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on December 23, 2014, 10:10:03 AM
Oh, Dmetri!

Can't believe what you write and believe.  It is the old Soviet 'BIG LIE'.

The truth is that it is the Russian economy that is tanking.  It is Russia who will always be a bridesmaid because it cannot match the success of the other Eastern European countries and the Baltic States who have moved to a market economy.

As for NATO being an enemy, there was a time where Russia would have been considered to be a NATO partner.  Now Russia has labelled NATO an enemy because it cannot hold its country together so we have daily incursions into NATO airspace to provoke a response, diverting the people's attention away from economic failure.

I have always liked Medvedev as he never took himself too seriously (or believed his press releases).  But now, with Russia experiencing a dramatic economic meltdown, he is forced to heap fuel on the fire that is burning out of control; the Big Soviet Lie.

It should be noted that Ukraine did revoke its neutral status yesterday in a move to apply for NATO membership.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on December 23, 2014, 10:27:37 AM
I just came to RWD to post this statement from Medvedev. You beat me to it.
My question is- why does Russia view NATO as the 'enemy'?? Is NATO invading Siberia or St. Petersburg? Are there NATO troops threatening Russia. No. However, there are Russian troops inside Ukraine, and Russia is encouraging the establishment of a New Russia INSIDE Ukraine....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on December 23, 2014, 11:47:40 AM
 :clapping:

That was good Jone
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 23, 2014, 01:19:58 PM
Evgeny Kiselev: “Russian media are becoming showpieces from a Kunstkamera”

(He is a Russian journalist from Moscow now living and working in Kiev.  His response about Crimea is the best response that I've ever read)

excerpt
To whom does Crimea belong?

OM: They say that Ukrainians test Russians on whether they are sincere by asking them a simple question: To whom does Crimea belong?

EK: That’s true. And my answer to this question would be clear and explicit: Crimea belongs to Ukraine. It was illegally annexed by Russia on an absolutely deceitful pretext—the alleged threat to ethnic Russians in Crimea (which was not true)—and with the help of military forces (the “green people”) and lies (a hastily organized and profaned “referendum”). I don’t see any difference between what Putin did to Crimea and how Saddam Hussein annexed Kuwait (and the whole world, including the USSR, rose up against him). I believe that one day, Crimea will have to be returned to Ukraine with no conditions or reservations, just like Alsace and Lorraine were once returned to France and the Sudetenland to Czechoslovakia.


http://www.imrussia.org/en/opinions/2093-evgeny-kiselev-russian-media-are-becoming-showpieces-from-a-kunstkamera
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on December 29, 2014, 06:49:40 AM
I thought these articles might be of interest to those debating the participation of Russian 'volunteers' in Ukraine.  Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak; the original is in Russian, and a translated version:

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/direct-translation-how-a-retired-russian-army-officer-sends-volunteers-to-fight-in-ukraine#.VKFQqowme11.twitter

http://www.e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-416966.html

I find the stories of Russian mothers getting no answers from the state about their sons' deaths in active service in Ukraine pretty depressing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11314817/Secret-dead-of-Russias-undeclared-war.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on December 29, 2014, 09:40:20 AM
I thought these articles might be of interest to those debating the participation of Russian 'volunteers' in Ukraine.  Straight from the horse's mouth so to speak; the original is in Russian, and a translated version:

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/direct-translation-how-a-retired-russian-army-officer-sends-volunteers-to-fight-in-ukraine#.VKFQqowme11.twitter

http://www.e1.ru/news/spool/news_id-416966.html

I find the stories of Russian mothers getting no answers from the state about their sons' deaths in active service in Ukraine pretty depressing:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11314817/Secret-dead-of-Russias-undeclared-war.html

Welcome to the forum.  Thanks for posting some interesting links.  Doll is the one who claims that Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine.  It would be interesting to see a native Russian speaker debate with her.  Her strategy seems to be to act really dumb.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on December 29, 2014, 10:04:47 AM
Welcome to the forum.  Thanks for posting some interesting links.  Doll is the one who claims that Russian soldiers are not in Ukraine.  It would be interesting to see a native Russian speaker debate with her.  Her strategy seems to be to act really dumb.

Thanks for the welcome ;)  I'm not a native Russian speaker, but I have been living in Russia for the last 10 years.  I think the evidence is there, it's whether one chooses to believe it or not.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on December 29, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
The news you may not hear about on Russian media is in the Mendeleyev Journal (www.MendeleyevJournal.com) today:

In Russian culture there is supposed to be lull regarding news during the holiday period. In fact, some publications even go on "holiday" during the season between the end of the year and just past Christmas on 07 January. Somebody forgot to remind the news-makers it would seem.

The funny: there is always an aspect of news in Russia that lends itself to hilarity. The country just cannot help itself apparently.

So, it was not that big of a surprise when last week the interior ministry declared that miniskirts were no longer appropriate for female police officers. It is true that miniskirts have never been part of the officially approved uniform, however there is something about seeing a young female officer in a very short skirt, while wearing high heels, that just makes you want to be chased--and caught.

Interior Ministry officials have watched, literally we can only assume, as hemlines have become shorter and shorter on the skirts of female officers. Heels have inched higher, too. Having seen enough, officials have decided to lower those hemlines and heels, back to something more representative of a respectable police force.

Commanders across Russia have been issued guidelines on daily uniform inspections. To keep it equal, male officers will no longer be allowed to wear sleeveless shirts in summer--something that had become somewhat of a trend in more recent years.


The odd: Tourism from the West is not exactly on the upswing as of late, due to sanctions and political spats between Russia and the West. However, the folk in Moscow are eternal optimists and just in time for the extended holiday period, the city has introduced a couple hundred "tourist police" on the streets. Think of them as bi-lingual tour guides with a map of the city in one hand and a pair of handcuffs in the other.

They can speak English (at least to a degree), help tourists navigate around the city, and then lock them up at night if the tourists misbehave. What a country!

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/mayor-sobyanin-inspects-kneeling-buses.jpg)

(Moscow Mayor Sergei Sobyanin inspects new "kneeling" buses, designed for easier passenger access.)



The vanishing: the brain and talent appears to continue unabated.

The latest high profile person to flee the country is Pavel Durov, the founder of Vkontake (known as "vk"), Russia's answer to Facebook. Durov says that VK had been under pressure to reveal personal information to the Kremlin regarding VK users from Ukraine. That came not long after President Putin had declared that the Internet had been invented as a tool for the CIA. We should note that Mr. Putin makes only scant use of the Internet.

Last week Durov as fired as CEO of the company he had founded and the Kremlin-friendly Igor Sechin, CEO of Russian oil giant Rosneft, was handed the reins. Perhaps Sechin was getting bored at his current job; oil sales are not exactly on the upswing as of late. The Kremlin has made no secret of its mistrust of the evil Internet.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/vk-logo-long.png)


Durov told technology newsite Techcrunch that he planned to launch another mobile social network, outside of Russia, naturally. He told the publication that, "I am out of Russia and have no plans to go back."


The continuing crackdown on a free press:


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/echo-radio-logo.png)

Last week the Kremlin moved to install new directors at the single remaining opposition radio network, Echo Radio, headquartered in Moscow. The station has been a thorn in the side of the Kremlin, and apparently a private summons for Chief editor Alexei Venediktov to meet personally with President Putin did little to bring the journalists of Radio Echo into "compliance."

So, Gazprom Media, as in the state controlled Gazprom Oil (one of the largest oil companies in the world), still retains a majority interest in the stock of the station, has moved to tighten control. Gazprom owns 66% and the 89 journalists of Radio Echo own the remaining 34%.

To make sure that Radio Echo tones down the independent rhetoric, the government media watchdog Roskomnadzor slapped the station with a warning after Echo interviewed journalists who detailed direct Russian involvement in the war in Eastern Ukraine. After the broadcast, Roskomnadzor notified the station of the warning, saying that Radio Echo had broadcast "information justifying war crimes."

Roskomnadzor warnings carry weight--two warnings allows the government to shut down a broadcast facility.


Even more on the continuing crackdown on a free press:

Yevgenia Albats, editor-in-chief of The New Times, one of the few remaining print publications independent of the Kremlin, has been accused of disobeying traffic police. Although authorities could not come up with specifics of her disobedience, the editor has been charged. She claims to have been pulled over in a routine traffic stop and handed over the proper paperwork when asked. The officers then charged Albats with disobeying police orders. If convicted she faces up to 15 days in jail.

Already the government-controlled television NTV, the channel that often conducts smear campaigns on those whom the Kremlin has labeled as enemies, has broadcast that the editor was leaving a "party at a Georgian restaurant" in Moscow. The state of relations between the Kremlin and the former Soviet republic of Georgia has remained tense since the Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2014/12/new-times-moscow-freedom.jpg)


The Albats case will be heard in court this Tuesday, 30 December.


The very bad:

Most Western readers probably have little to no knowledge of the oil spill in the Black Sea last week. Why? Because the Russian media is not exactly racing to cover the story. Last week a large Russian oil pipeline burst a pipeline outside the town of Tuapse. Russian oil giant Rosneft was constructing pipeline in the area for use by Transneft, Russia's major pipeline transporter.

The local government has declared a state of emergency, and whether intended or not, the declaration has hampered efforts by independent media and world scientific experts to inspect the damage. Severe winter weather has hampered clean-up efforts.

Groups such as the World Wildlife Fund and Inhabit claim that Satellite imagery indicates between 500 to 700 tons of oil were spilled into the Black Sea. If true, that could be almost 100 times more oil than Russian government sources have estimated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-xDkv5A4jo


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 02, 2015, 02:58:27 AM
Students asked--Is Ukraine a Threat to Russia
To spoil your reading the conclusion is yes!!!  Why--because of the democratic process !! ;D


. Students at the Faculty of the Kuban State University, an exam for the discipline "The constitutional foundations of national security." One of the issues on which they will have to answer - "Ukraine as a threat to national security." The correct answer to this question them, I think, hard preparing teaching staff of constitutional and municipal law. Head. Department - Olga Kovtun ANDREYEVNA, PhD, associate professor, in 1987 she defended her thesis on "Legal regulation of relations of power supply and electrical maintenance of collective farms." I never thought that electricity collective farms requires a separate legal regulation, but maybe something I do not understand ... Although the essence of the matter, of course, the relevance of scientific achievements Associate Professor Kovtun, and "inverted" picture of the world that are investing in students' minds . And not only the Kuban State University. Russia In Ukraine, the Russian military killed - allegedly being "on vacation" or "at the exercises." Their death is hidden and their families are under tremendous pressure - to remain silent. And we must be fully zombie Russian TV channels to believe that the Ukrainian army opposed "desperate civilians Donetsk", and not disguised regular units of the Russian army. Russian propaganda calls the Ukrainian authorities "Kiev junta" and "fascists." Ukrainian people - "Bandera" and the Ukrainian army to defend their country - "The Punisher" (it is worth recalling what they do the Russian army in Chechnya). And glorifies non-existent "New Russia" and "People's Republic" on the part of the Donetsk and Lugansk regions. Ukraine has viewed Russia as the worst enemy. Note: Ukraine is not Russia took away a single square meter of its territory to the territory of the Russian soldiers do not fight Ukrainian and Ukrainian citizens, Ukraine is not supplying weapons Russian separatists and the Russian government calls the "fascists" and "junta". However, Kuban students (and, most likely, not only them) teach that Ukraine is a threat to Russia's national security, and not vice versa. This is worse than a lie. This is a deliberate meanness. Same as taken by the Russian authorities in the "Ukrainian question" political line that caused the President of Ukraine PoroshenkoNew Year's address to declare : "The worst enemy invaded our lives, territory, freedom, independence." See also: dislocated soul and blurred vision In just one year the Putin regime has made a monstrously impossible: Ukraine, contact us centuries of common history and culture, has viewed Russia as the worst enemy. Damn those who started this war and support who glorify gangsters and terrorists who recruit and egg "volunteers." They represent a major threat to our national security. I believe that all of them will sit on a long bench. And not in The Hague, and in Russia - when it will be another power. It will happen. As for Ukraine - it is a threat, but not to Russia's national security, and for the current Russian political regime. Because her example shows that you can change the discredited government. You can get rid of the corrupt president, there was a post and resources to friends and relatives. It is possible to hold fair elections. You can pass a law on lustration. And you can go on the European road. This path does not guarantee happiness - but it gives hope. In contrast to the way in which our country is moving today. Close to it is not too late. Read the original publication on "Echo of Moscow".
Больше читайте здесь: http://ru.tsn.ua/analitika/vrag-gosudarstva-1-403785.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 02, 2015, 02:43:59 PM
The battle is ideological. Moscow and Russia feel connected to Kiev, in a brotherly way. Putin cannot come to terms with Kiev's movement towards the EU and democracy, while Moscow wants to go back to a Neo-Soviet state, a state that suppresses freedoms and discourages democracy, a state that isn't ready to confront corruption or end a dictatorship. That's a huge ideological divide. The West has influenced many Ukrainians over the past twenty years. They see what life is like in the West, by taking trips there, and learning through the internet. Generally, communication has pushed Ukrainians away from Russia and towards the EU. When Russia turned the gas off a few years ago, I think that was a major public relations disaster for Moscow, and Ukrainians became disgusted with politics in general. The Maidan revolution offered Ukrainians hope for a better future.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 03, 2015, 12:41:36 AM
The President of the Confederacy knew the only path to victory was  international recognition.  People buy goods made from slave labor.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 01:04:40 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tkLJS4cIq4
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 01:17:02 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=joEbMy3Lt0Q#t=103
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 01:20:36 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=joEbMy3Lt0Q#t=103
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 01:22:07 PM
Given that most posters here don't speak Russian, what is the point of all these Wagenknecht videos?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 01:40:28 PM
Interesting that Ms Wagenknecht refers to the problematic popularity of fascist parties in the EU, but does not note that Russia is providing funds to those parties.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 04, 2015, 01:41:31 PM
Interesting that Ms Wagenknecht refers to the problematic popularity of fascist parties in the EU, but does not note that Russia is providing funds to those parties.
Evidence?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 01:42:55 PM
Interesting that Ms Wagenknecht refers to the problematic popularity of fascist parties in the EU, but does not note that Russia is providing funds to those parties.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIi4a7ri-dc
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 01:46:46 PM

Evidence?


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu)


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putins-farright-ambition-thinktank-reveals-how-russian-president-is-wooing--and-funding--populist-parties-across-europe-to-gain-influence-in-the-eu-9883052.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putins-farright-ambition-thinktank-reveals-how-russian-president-is-wooing--and-funding--populist-parties-across-europe-to-gain-influence-in-the-eu-9883052.html)


http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/11/26/from_russia_with_cash.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/11/26/from_russia_with_cash.html)


http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies)


You can find more here -
http://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=66WpVI3NDuLs8weUlIH4Cw#q=russia+funds+far+right+eu (http://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=66WpVI3NDuLs8weUlIH4Cw#q=russia+funds+far+right+eu)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 01:49:12 PM
I don't disagree with her view of taking the illegitimate fortunes of oligarchs.  That applies to Russia, too.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 01:50:39 PM
I disagree vehemently with her statement that Poroshenko does not wish to negotiate peace.  There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, including numerous ceasefires the terrorists have broken.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 01:53:33 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1zvb_ottiw
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 01:56:15 PM
Given that every poster here knows RT is a propaganda arm of the Russian government, do you really believe anyone here is going to be duped by anything it "reports" (and I use that term in its loosest sense)?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 04, 2015, 02:01:21 PM


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/dec/08/russia-europe-right-putin-front-national-eu)


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putins-farright-ambition-thinktank-reveals-how-russian-president-is-wooing--and-funding--populist-parties-across-europe-to-gain-influence-in-the-eu-9883052.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/putins-farright-ambition-thinktank-reveals-how-russian-president-is-wooing--and-funding--populist-parties-across-europe-to-gain-influence-in-the-eu-9883052.html)


http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/11/26/from_russia_with_cash.html (http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/11/26/from_russia_with_cash.html)


http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies (http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141067/mitchell-a-orenstein/putins-western-allies)


You can find more here -
http://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=66WpVI3NDuLs8weUlIH4Cw#q=russia+funds+far+right+eu (http://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=cr&ei=66WpVI3NDuLs8weUlIH4Cw#q=russia+funds+far+right+eu)

Thanks, the Front National issue slipped my mind.
I do hope that you are aware that the Front National has tried to obtain loans from French and European banks but was denied, and had to take a loan from a Moscow bank at unfavorable conditions.
It would by the way not surprise me if various anti-EU parties (that are often labeled as extreme right) were supported, including the famous UKIP.
Just to complete, I do hope that you are aware that extreme right and fascist are two different political ideologies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:07:30 PM
Yes, I know, although many of those parties are, in fact, fascist.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 02:10:41 PM
I disagree vehemently with her statement that Poroshenko does not wish to negotiate peace.  There is plenty of evidence to the contrary, including numerous ceasefires the terrorists have broken.
Sure. Do you remember what he said EVERY time? That it will give him time to get ready for new attacks.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 04, 2015, 02:12:55 PM
Yes, I know, although many of those parties are, in fact, fascist.
In many cases they are extreme right, but not fascist. The fascist label is usually given by socialist parties who see extreme right as a larger threat. After all remember that the nazi part was a cooperation of fascist and socialist groups.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:13:47 PM
Sure. Do you remember what he said EVERY time? That it will give him time to get ready for new attacks.


Please provide a link to one time he stated that.  And, not from a Russian newspaper.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:22:36 PM
In many cases they are extreme right, but not fascist. The fascist label is usually given by socialist parties who see extreme right as a larger threat. After all remember that the nazi part was a cooperation of fascist and socialist groups.

I view the National Front is fascist, as do many of its opponents.  In fact, they just recently lost a lawsuit in France, in which their left wing opponents described them as fascist.

Jobbik is fascist, as is Germany's National Democratic Party. 

While I agree that fascism has in its definition control over the economy in a way that is close of socialism, of more importance, I believe, is the concept of the superiority of one nation over another, or, in modern times, identification of one nation over others.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 02:27:26 PM


Please provide a link to one time he stated that.  And, not from a Russian newspaper.

I don't remember when  heard it, so no "not from a Russian newspaper" links.
Actually I heard it on CNN but can't provide a link.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 04, 2015, 02:27:50 PM



But I believe National Front is fascist, as do many of its opponents.  In fact, they just recently lost a lawsuit in France, in which their left wing opponents described them as fascist.


Jobbik is fascist, as is Germany's National Democratic Party. 


While I agree that fascism has in its definition control over the economy in a way that is socialist, of more importance, I believe, is the concept of the superiority of one nation over another, or, in modern times, identification of one nation over others.
What I see of Jobbik I agree. Front National I am on the fence, as it has both elements of fascist as extreme right.
The father of Mrs Le Pen was indeed fascist, but the party has moved its ideology.
They still have anti-immigration as a topic, which is not by definition fascist even if it receives such label.
Apart from that they strive to return France to pre-EU status, which is extreme right.

And the funny part is that the Front National would in the US politics be closer to Democrats as to Republicans.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:31:45 PM
I don't remember when  heard it, so no "not from a Russian newspaper" links.
Actually I heard it on CNN but can't provide a link.


I doubt that Poroshenko ever said that, as he has stated numerous times that there is no military solution to the conflict.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 02:32:53 PM

I doubt that Poroshenko ever said that, as he has stated numerous times that there is no military solution to the conflict.
You can doubt what ever you want
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:34:31 PM
True, and until you can provide a link, I can also state Poroshenko never made the statement you attribute to him.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 02:38:05 PM
This Sarah W probably knows more than we and SHE says that Poroshenko doesn't want any negotiations.
She says so, not me
I am sorry but  she is times higher than both of us. No offense.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:43:44 PM
This Sarah W probably knows more than we and SHE says that Poroshenko doesn't want any negotiations.She says so, not meI am sorry but  she is times higher than both of us. No offense.
She is a politician with her own agenda.  Her statements contradict not only facts (such as unilateral ceasefires declared by Ukraine), but those of other politicians, including Angela Merkel.  Given Merkel is Chancellor of Germany, would her words not carry more weight than those of an opposition politician?  Or, you can read Poroshenko's own words - 

Quote
"I am ready to make a peace deal with anybody," he said. "I want to bring the peace to my country, not because we are weak, not because we are less patriotic than anybody. We are ready to defend my country because I hate the idea not to use the last opportunity to bring the peace to the region." - Poroshenko, CNN interview, June 28, 2014
Quote
"There’s no military solution in Donbas," the Interfax-Ukraine news agency quoted Poroshenko as saying, referring to the war zone in the heavily industrialized basin along the Don River. "If someone wants to play that way, taking up weapons and fighting the Russian military machine -- the strongest on the continent -- we'll see how that ends." - Petro Poroshenko, Interfax, December 29, 2014
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 02:48:59 PM
 (http://nato.trendolizer.com/assets_c/2014/12/258290-thumb-300xauto-226301.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 04, 2015, 02:52:23 PM
Not certain what the point of your last post was (seriously, not a dig).


As for Wagenknecht, she's a Marxist.  So, she is likely wrong on most everything.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 02:55:41 PM
Not certain what the point of your last post was (seriously, not a dig).


As for Wagenknecht, she's a Marxist.  So, she is likely wrong on most everything.
Just keeping to the thread PROPAGANDA WAR
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 04, 2015, 03:36:33 PM
We got Boethius and MissA.  The other side has Doll and Belvis.  holy mismatch Batman!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on January 04, 2015, 03:40:29 PM
With that picture of the midget mongoloid next to the bear, are you suggesting Putin is into bestiality?
If so that's a new low even for him Doll.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 04, 2015, 03:43:03 PM
With that picture of the midget mongoloid next to the bear, are you suggesting Putin is into bestiality?
If so that's a new low even for him Doll.
I thought it was determined that it is NOT your picture there. :P
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 04, 2015, 04:03:02 PM
This Sarah W probably knows more than we and SHE says that Poroshenko doesn't want any negotiations.
She says so, not me
I am sorry but she is times higher than both of us. No offense.

Not really.  But it is evidence of a Russian persons willingness to follow a "higher authority".
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 04, 2015, 04:36:46 PM
Not really.  But it is evidence of a Russian persons willingness to follow a "higher authority".
What?
I just posted two video from Bundestag.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 08:44:58 AM



youtube is the evidence? Again?  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 08:45:23 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=joEbMy3Lt0Q#t=103 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=joEbMy3Lt0Q#t=103)


youtube is the evidence? Again?  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 08:46:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=joEbMy3Lt0Q#t=103 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=joEbMy3Lt0Q#t=103)


youtube is the evidence? Again?  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 08:47:04 AM



youtube is the evidence? Again?  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 08:48:02 AM



youtube is the evidence? Again?  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 08:50:03 AM
I don't remember when  heard it, so no "not from a Russian newspaper" links.
Actually I heard it on CNN but can't provide a link.


Link or it never happened.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 05, 2015, 09:02:55 AM

Link or it never happened.  ;)
Petro Poroshenko (http://www.quotetimes.com/people/380578/petro-poroshenko;jsessionid=apmtrnw32hc3kz3b0ryidvpq)  I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops, ... We are prepared for a scenario of total war - CHANNEL NEWS ASIA, 16-Nov-14

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 05, 2015, 09:05:35 AM
Which is not what Doll stated Poroshenko allegedly said.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 05, 2015, 09:14:25 AM
Petro Poroshenko (http://www.quotetimes.com/people/380578/petro-poroshenko;jsessionid=apmtrnw32hc3kz3b0ryidvpq)  I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops, ... We are prepared for a scenario of total war - CHANNEL NEWS ASIA, 16-Nov-14

  • (http://www.quotetimes.com/pics/380578.jpg) (http://www.quotetimes.com/people/380578/petro-poroshenko)
  • Petro Poroshenko (http://www.quotetimes.com/people/380578/petro-poroshenko)  We will attack. We will free our land - UPI, 01-Jul-14


Let's take the whole quotes, so they are in context -

We will attack. We will free our land  . . . The unique chance to put the peace plan into practice was not realised," Mr Poroshenko said. . . "This happened because of the criminal actions of the fighters," he added.

"I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops," (Poroshenko) said.  'We are prepared for a scenario of total war. . . We don't want war, we want peace and we are fighting for European values."

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 05, 2015, 09:16:22 AM

Let's take the whole quotes, so they are in context -

We will attack. We will free our land  . . . The unique chance to put the peace plan into practice was not realised," Mr Poroshenko said. . . "This happened because of the criminal actions of the fighters," he added.

"I am not afraid of a war with Russian troops," (Poroshenko) said.  'We are prepared for a scenario of total war. . . We don't want war, we want peace and we are fighting for European values."
Only a fool would blame himself for war.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 05, 2015, 09:25:56 AM
So what was Ukraine supposed to do?   At the time, Russia had not sent troops to the region.  Should he have allowed millions who do not support the separatists to have to live under their rule, where extra judicial justice is the norm, and women are told they should not be seen in restaurants?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 05, 2015, 09:32:11 AM
So what was Ukraine supposed to do?   At the time, Russia had not sent troops to the region.  Should he have allowed millions who do not support the separatists to have to live under their rule, where extra judicial justice is the norm, and women are told they should not be seen in restaurants?
Wait a minute... did you not say this was never a civil war but from the beginning an uprising by Russia that was holding people hostage?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Pkeel1 on January 05, 2015, 09:34:18 AM
Boethius, Ukraine was supposed to trade the Crimea for Donbass.  That way everyone wins.

And yes that was sarcasm.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 05, 2015, 09:37:01 AM
Wait a minute... did you not say this was never a civil war but from the beginning an uprising by Russia that was holding people hostage?


I don't think it is a civil war. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 05, 2015, 09:39:24 AM
Boethius, Ukraine was supposed to trade the Crimea for Donbass.  That way everyone wins.

And yes that was sarcasm.
:)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 05, 2015, 09:47:06 AM

I don't think it is a civil war.
Then explain the above statement.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 01:52:37 PM
So what was Ukraine supposed to do?   At the time, Russia had not sent troops to the region.  Should he have allowed millions who do not support the separatists to have to live under their rule, where extra judicial justice is the norm, and women are told they should not be seen in restaurants?


According to Shadow, this:


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/bohica_zps8c07b66e.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 05, 2015, 01:55:06 PM
Then explain the above statement.


I believe she was being nice to you using the term "separatists"because you throw a tantrum every time someone refers to the criminals as terrorists.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 06, 2015, 12:34:18 AM
excerpt
"It was 2002, and I was just out of university, living in Moscow and working at a think tank meant to be promoting Russian-U.S. political ties. A friendly Russian publisher who wanted me to work for him had invited me to what would be my first meeting in Moscow. And that’s how I ended up surrounded by Russian media gurus tucked away on the top floor of Ostankino, the Soviet-era television center that is the battering ram of Kremlin propaganda—home to the studios of the country’s biggest channels. Here, Moscow’s flashiest minds gathered for a weekly brainstorming session to decide what Ostankino would broadcast.

At one end of the table sat one of the country’s most famous political TV presenters. He was small and spoke fast, with a smoky voice: “We all know there will be no real politics,” he said. “But we still have to give our viewers the sense something is happening. They need to be kept entertained.”

 “So what should we play with?” he asked. “Shall we attack oligarchs? Who’s the enemy this week? Politics has got to feel like a movie!

”More than a decade later, that movie is increasingly dark and disturbing. The first thing Russian militias do when they take a town in East Ukraine is seize the television towers and switch them over to Kremlin channels. Soon after, the locals begin to rant about fascists in Kyiv and dark U.S. plots to purge Russian speakers from East Ukraine. It’s not just what they say but how they say it that is so disturbing: irrational spirals of paranoia, theories so elaborate and illogical one can’t possibly argue with them."

Read more: http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/01/putin-russia-tv-113960.html#ixzz3O1aSC0Ly

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 06, 2015, 08:39:53 PM
Bo, you are right. I remember these quotes from Poroshenko.

Quote<blockquote> "I am ready to make a peace deal with anybody," he said. "I want to bring the peace to my country, not because we are weak, not because we are less patriotic than anybody. We are ready to defend my country because I hate the idea not to use the last opportunity to bring the peace to the region." - Poroshenko, CNN interview, June 28, 2014 </blockquote>Quote<blockquote>"There’s no military solution in Donbas," the Interfax-Ukraine news agency quoted Poroshenko as saying, referring to the war zone in the heavily industrialized basin along the Don River. "If someone wants to play that way, taking up weapons and fighting the Russian military machine -- the strongest on the continent -- we'll see how that ends." - Petro Poroshenko, Interfax, December 29, 2014



</blockquote>
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 06, 2015, 08:46:41 PM
Also, during the last 6 months, the rebel leaders have been quoted numerous times, talking about the establishment of 'New Russia' AND telling reporters that they would like to push their territory as far West as possible. How do you negotiate with people like that? Earlier in the year, the new Ukrainian government offered a great deal of autonomy to the people of Donbas and it was rejected. I can understanding the rejection, in the context of the big Russian lie- that the new government was dangerous and horrible, similar to Nazis. Remember the first big lie from Putin- we must protect Russian-speakers in Crimea?? Putin has a history of big lies. Putin is ruining Russia, and now Russians are also ruing Russia by supporting these lies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 06, 2015, 08:48:38 PM
Recent news- is it true that Strelkov/Girkin is advising separatists to give up their fight? I'll find the link...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 06, 2015, 08:57:23 PM
Recent news- is it true that Strelkov/Girkin is advising separatists to give up their fight? I'll find the link...

Yes-- I posted -- basically the hirelings are being replaced by Russian military-- and a lot easier if the remove themselves rather than resist the Russian military.In places the gangs have been resisting and fighting both Russian and Ukrainian military( & other gangs) for control of areas..
So those  2 ( & others) are still doing the begging for their masters in following orders.
Exactly why the Russians have troops replacing them and moving in could have   a few explanations -I covered already potential reasons.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 06, 2015, 10:36:12 PM
There are three phases to Soviet subversion: demoralization, collapse and normalization. 

Demoralization is what has gone on in Ukraine for 23 years, what has been going on in America since the 1930's - the communists just want you to make you feel like your country sucks.

Collapse is civil war or invasion - sometimes both.

Normalization is when the Kremlin kills off the useful idiots in order to monopolize power.

is that what we are seeing in Eastern Ukraine?  If so, that means the Blitzkrieg is off.
Title: Terrorist attack in Paris staged by US intelligence agencies
Post by: JayH on January 08, 2015, 08:16:59 PM
Really-- how can a more ridiculous  slant can there possibly be !


Expert: Terrorist attack in Paris staged by US intelligence agencies
Terrorists murder of 12 people in the center of Paris is within the interests of the United States, says political analyst Alexei Martynov. On Air LifeNews he said that is not a supporter of conspiracy theories, but I am sure that for those militants who have committed a terrorist act in the blood of the magazine Charlie Hebdo , are the US intelligence services.

http://lifenews.ru/news/148122
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 08, 2015, 10:06:56 PM
Ah, good ole Life News. That will earn them yet another commendation from the Kremlin for "bravery" while reporting from the front. VK is already being filled with photos showing the guys in supposedly different vests, as if that is somehow proof the CIA was involved. As usual, the kooks have no rational explanation as to why their theory would make sense.

I used to have a cautious respect for LifeNews, right up to the day the Malaysian airliner was shot down over Ukraine. LifeNews had reporters embedded with the pro-Russian terrorists (rebels) and in the week prior they had reported on how the rebels had shot down several Ukrainian air force planes leading up to that day. They were very proud of how high their missiles could fly.

Suddenly they broke on live television for a special bulletin, and I watched as an excited reporter broke the news that another Ukrainian plane had been shot out of the sky. He interviewed a local commander who was even more excited in exclaiming that local rebel forces ruled the sky, and how stupid the Ukrainians were to have sent another plane into rebel air space.

About an hour later, as reports began to come in of a civilian airline shot down over Eastern Ukraine, Life News editors sent out an urgent RECALL notice. A media recall notice is when a network pulls a story. It is pulled from their own airwaves, and any affiliates (local stations, other networks, licensed cable outlets, etc) who have permission to use source material is put on notice that permission to use that data/film/scripts/etc has been rescinded. There are legal remedies for affiliates who fail to honour a recall. Recalls don't happen very often--only when a story has materially changed, when the story is wrong, or in the extremely rare event that they have decided to sweep it under the rug.

I don't know who shot down the airliner; I'll leave that for the Dutch committee and they have made a conclusion.

What I do know is that I have zero respect anymore for LIfeNews. They swept everything off their website, but others (myself included) have screenshots before it was scrubbed. At the time LifeNews, and the rebels, thought it was an  Antonov An-26, which is a much shorter plane. If the idiots could not tell the difference between a modified Soviet transport from a modern Boeing jetliner, that told me that the inmates were running the BUK asylum if, as they gleefully claimed at first, the rebels had shot it down.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 08, 2015, 10:23:05 PM
OMG!
http://ria.ru/world/20150108/1041812617.html#ixzz3OGLmUJVf
 :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 08, 2015, 10:38:50 PM
If you come from Western Ukraine, that is not an uncommon perception.  Unless of course, Doll, you think the families of the 7,000 victims unearthed from the NKVD headquarters in L'viv, most bearing marks of torture (remember, this was in a little less than 2 years), welcomed the Bolsheviks coming to murder innocents.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 08, 2015, 10:41:51 PM
If you come from Western Ukraine, that is not an uncommon perception.  Unless of course, Doll, you think the families of the 7,000 victims unearthed from the NKVD headquarters in L'viv, most bearing marks of torture (remember, this was in a little less than 2 years), welcomed the Bolsheviks coming to murder innocents.
Did you comprehend what Yatsenuk said?
Total nonsense
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 08, 2015, 10:45:00 PM
Yes, I did.  I am not a fan of Yasteniuk, but I understand what he is saying.  I think you do not.  You understand the words, but not the context.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 08, 2015, 10:48:44 PM
Yes, I did.  I am not a fan of Yasteniuk, but I understand what he is saying.  I think you do not.  You understand the words, but not the context.
Then i agree to an idiot
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 08, 2015, 10:53:23 PM
He's not an idiot, but he plays to a particular audience, which is the lowest common denominator.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 08, 2015, 10:56:44 PM
He's not an idiot, but he plays to a particular audience, which is the lowest common denominator.
Boe, I agree to be an idiot after I read what he and you said

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 08, 2015, 11:00:43 PM
Ah, OK, I misunderstood.  I thought you were referring to Yatseniuk, and I would respect that opinion. :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 08, 2015, 11:06:58 PM
He's not an idiot, but he plays to a particular audience, which is the lowest common denominator.
Please do :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 09, 2015, 12:30:37 AM
Boe, I agree to be an idiot after I read what he and you said


Classic! :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 09, 2015, 01:35:52 AM
Did you comprehend what Yatsenuk said?
Total nonsense

It's you who cannot comprehend something very simple.  You seem to think that the Soviet Union under Stalin was some sort of angelic paradise when nothing could be further from the truth.  Stalin's propaganda minister at that time wanted revenge on Germany and any Germans and he whipped the Soviet troops into a frenzy of raping and pillaging every village they went through on the way to Berlin.  Apparently you've never heard of all the ethnic Germans who were raped and then murdered in E. Prussia? (now Kaliningrad -- most traces of Germans being there permanently removed).  In fact I once met a very ignorant Russian woman from Riga, Latvia (indoctrinated by the Soviets like you, and ignorant of any real history) who did not even know that Riga was originally settled by Germans and major portions of historic Riga were build by German merchants.  Over 1 Million German women in Berlin were raped by Soviet troops.  Of course you will probably deny it.  No doubt the Soviets took reprisals against W. Ukrainians and likely murdered thousands.  Approximately 10 million ethnic German civilians were sent to the Siberian Gulag at the end of WWII and never heard from again.  So yes the Soviets did invade W. Ukraine, Poland and Germany.  NOT their territory so why did they go there?  To rape, plunder and pillage like thieves.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 09, 2015, 01:41:01 AM
Boe, I agree to be an idiot after I read what he and you said

So funny ha ha ha!  So now we all agree!   ;)

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 09, 2015, 02:24:08 AM
AC, who attacked whom in 1941?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 09, 2015, 02:28:06 AM
So funny ha ha ha!  So now we all agree!   ;)
I do agree but just for this forum

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 09, 2015, 10:17:00 AM
AC, who attacked whom in 1941?

Of course, Germany attacked the Soviets (and a few months later the Japanese attacked the US). 

This invasion was a stab in the back because previously the Soviets had been 1) shipping raw materials to Germany to build the Nazi war machine and 2) negotiating with Hitler for the Soviets to join the Axis pact and divide the world (Soviets would have rights to Bosphorus, Iraq, Iran, parts of eastern Europe, etc.).   

If you were educated during Soviet times, you did not know of Stalin's plans to join the Axis pact.                                   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiers_of_History

   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 09, 2015, 11:05:31 AM
AC, who attacked whom in 1941?

Who started WWII Doll?  That's right, the Soviet Union did when they attacked Finland.  Get over it already.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Shadow on January 09, 2015, 11:18:50 AM
Who started WWII Doll?  That's right, the Soviet Union did when they attacked Finland.  Get over it already.
:ROFL:
But America started WWI by invading Mexico.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 09, 2015, 11:20:30 AM
:ROFL:
But America started WWI by invading Mexico.


Gee Shadow, at least keep it in the same century.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 09, 2015, 11:25:57 AM
I thought the invasion of Mexico was 1846.  Under Polk's administration.  (I really liked him as a President.  He said:  "I'm only running for one term" and stuck to his guns.)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 09, 2015, 02:55:47 PM
:ROFL:
But America started WWI by invading Mexico.

But it was your forefathers who started all the Indian wars in America.  The Dutch cheated the local Indians when buying Manhattan, the word got out, and every tribe after that had a grudge to settle with White Man. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 09, 2015, 03:22:42 PM
Yes, but aside from the Dutch, and New Amsterdam, the initial Indian wars originated when Britain still ruled America (OH, NO! We are brothers with England.  That means we should be one country!)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 09, 2015, 04:42:29 PM
Yes, but aside from the Dutch, and New Amsterdam, the initial Indian wars originated when Britain still ruled America (OH, NO! We are brothers with England.  That means we should be one country!)

Back when the French knew how to handle the native population of their territories. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 12, 2015, 01:12:46 AM
Opinion piece in the Moscow Times

excerpt
World War II put an end to European military history. It would seem that Russia, as a country that suffered the full horror of that war, would have no interest in starting another military conflict. Now Moscow has not only begun the forceful repartitioning of another country's territory, but also a large-scale campaign to justify and even glorify those actions.

A European country that nobody intends to attack and yet revels in military adventurism and fosters a culture of violence has no future. I repeat: No territory is worth aggression and death. Under no circumstances should Europe — including Ukraine — attempt to appease Moscow or stoop to its level of behavior.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko is correct in not directly opposing Moscow with military force and in essentially giving up the breakaway regions to Russia. Any people that seize territory belonging to another country will never prosper or find any measure of happiness. In fact, such actions rob them of their own status as "a people" and reduce them to a mob united only by a blind belief in their leader.

I am infinitely saddened that Russia chose the path of a rogue state this past year. It will bring neither glory to its leaders nor happiness to its people — not this year or in the years to come.


Vladislav Inozemtsev is the director of the Center for Post-Industrial Studies in Moscow and a newly appointed non-resident Senior Associate at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/russia-must-stop-glorifying-war-in-ukraine/514189.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 12, 2015, 09:54:34 AM
AC, an excellent piece.  It is an opinion, not a news article, and is hidden deep in the paper.  Nevertheless, it is a strong position, especially for someone living and working in Moscow.  I do not know anything about Vladislav Inozemtsev, yet the CSIS with whom he is associated is a well respected "think tank."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 12, 2015, 11:13:33 AM
AC, an excellent piece.  It is an opinion, not a news article, and is hidden deep in the paper.  Nevertheless, it is a strong position, especially for someone living and working in Moscow.  I do not know anything about Vladislav Inozemtsev, yet the CSIS with whom he is associated is a well respected "think tank."

Thanks Gator, you are correct about that.  I modified my post accordingly.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 12, 2015, 12:39:48 PM
Jone is right. Using Putin's logic:

1- The USA is militarily stronger than Great Britain
2- Great Britain speaks English.
3- The USA has its roots in Great Britain.
4- Therefore, the USA should annex Great Britain and protect its english-speakers from imaginary threats. That might serve American interests...
...barbaric.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on January 12, 2015, 12:52:12 PM
But if USA were to take over Great Britain, then USA taxpayers would be saddled with huge educational costs of teaching proper English language to the folks there.

No thanks.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 12, 2015, 01:07:04 PM
This makes me think of some hesitancy on the part of Putin to absorb the Donbas. Financial and social ramifications that are not entirely positive. Sometimes I feel like a huge wall should be build at the western edge of Donbas. You(rebels) want your own system and culture and a Soviet way of life? Okay. Let's see how you like it, as the rest of Ukraine prospers over time and follows the steps of Poland. In that scenario, the world would see a huge contrast, a western ideology versus a Soviet ideology. Maybe Donbas can never go 'home' again to Ukraine. It's a tragedy. Maybe they'll discover their Russian 'motherland' isn't so great...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 12, 2015, 04:52:07 PM
But if USA were to take over Great Britain, then USA taxpayers would be saddled with huge educational costs of teaching proper English language to the folks there.

No thanks.

Why teach them English?  I thought that the predominant language in the USA must now be Spanish, going by how many posters constantly bemoan the number of illegal Central and South American immigrants who are pouring over the borders!

P.S.  I would guess that Crimean and Donbas Russian differs slightly from "pure" Russian as well - maybe there will be opportunities for teachers to re-educate the "little brothers and sisters!"  :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 12, 2015, 06:23:46 PM
Why teach them English?  I thought that the predominant language in the USA must now be Spanish, going by how many posters constantly bemoan the number of illegal Central and South American immigrants who are pouring over the borders!


 :ROFL:




Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 12, 2015, 06:33:50 PM
This makes me think of some hesitancy on the part of Putin to absorb the Donbas. Financial and social ramifications that are not entirely positive. Sometimes I feel like a huge wall should be build at the western edge of Donbas. You(rebels) want your own system and culture and a Soviet way of life? Okay. Let's see how you like it, as the rest of Ukraine prospers over time and follows the steps of Poland. In that scenario, the world would see a huge contrast, a western ideology versus a Soviet ideology. Maybe Donbas can never go 'home' again to Ukraine. It's a tragedy. Maybe they'll discover their Russian 'motherland' isn't so great...

PG -- the thought that you express here were common in Ukraine about july /august last year where was a widespread view in Ukraine that letting the Donbas go  was a smart thing to do--if it was going to stop the Russians there.From then until November there was a pronounced shift of opinion--to concede nothing and fight to defend Ukraine as hard as possible.
I am against conceding a centimetre -regardless. This has so few people from the Donbas involved it is nothing like a popular uprising--it is Russian imposed occupation that a few misguided locals joined-when they thought they were choosing a winning side.Look at poll results I posted recently--- that paints a clear picture.
Putin will never leave Ukraine alone or stop attempting to destabilise it. The only solution for Ukraine is to remove them-and exclude them.Putin knows( that is if he has a future) that a functioning democracy successful on his doorstep would be the end of his regime in Russia-- so in fact he is fighting that battle already.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 12, 2015, 07:55:34 PM
Why teach them English?  I thought that the predominant language in the USA must now be Spanish,

What do you got against Spanish?

going by how many posters constantly bemoan the number of illegal Central and South American immigrants who are pouring over the borders!

I would rather deal with those that don't habla than those that Allah akbah . . .  jus' sayin'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 12, 2015, 10:40:57 PM
What do you got against Spanish?

Nothing at all, unlike, apparently, many of your fellow citizens.

I would rather deal with those that don't habla than those that Allah akbah . . .  jus' sayin'

And how many of the latter do you actually know?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 12, 2015, 10:49:31 PM
Its funny.  Very few Americans on this forum have harsh words for Abbott or Gillard who are unrecognizable in a policy sense.  But when the Yanks come to town we get the odd angry shot.  Why is that?

As to the presence of the Muhammadan,  Come to Houston! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 12, 2015, 11:27:10 PM
Its funny.  Very few Americans on this forum have harsh words for Abbott or Gillard who are unrecognizable in a policy sense.

Who are they?  Oh, you mean the AUSTRALIAN politicians!  :cluebat:

But when the Yanks come to town we get the odd angry shot.  Why is that?

What on earth are you burbling about now?

As to the presence of the Muhammadan,  Come to Houston!

Too far away.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 13, 2015, 05:25:28 AM
I made my point Kiwi.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 13, 2015, 04:20:27 PM
I made my point Kiwi.

I'm glad you think so, although I have no idea what that point was.  I'm getting more and more confused, as your posts ramble further and further away from the points that other people are trying to make.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 13, 2015, 04:23:28 PM
I have no idea what that point was.  I'm getting more and more confused,

No surprise here
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 14, 2015, 12:45:16 AM
Quote
But if USA were to take over Great Britain, then USA taxpayers would be saddled with huge educational costs of teaching proper English language to the folks there.

Not to mention they'd need to be taught about real bacon and how to carve a pork chip. LOL
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 14, 2015, 08:33:35 AM
Great Britain would benefit from 'American' food, which is very international. Very few 'British food' restaurants in the states. Hopefully we could absorb more of the Brit's humour...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on January 14, 2015, 08:43:27 AM
Medvedev?
Is he breaking away from Putin, or showing another side of Putin?

'... Russia will not cut itself off from the world because any return to the past would be a "monstrous mistake", Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Wednesday...'
short article:
http://news.yahoo.com/russia-not-cut-itself-off-world-medvedev-095901269--sector.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 16, 2015, 01:45:07 AM
There are several groups in the government and each has an opposing agenda. Medvedev is one of the moderates. Right now he is under a lot of pressure and I am not sure how long he will last. If forced out, that will not be a good sign.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 17, 2015, 09:21:45 AM
On the impact of the propaganda war...

In a publication called "Russia Direct" a recent issue discussed the fallout of Russian-American relations. Some interesting notes:

Quote
According to a November poll by the Public Opinion Foundation, the number of Russian citizens who positively relate to the U.S. has reached a historic low, comprising 11 percent. Another 46 percent perceive the U.S. neutrally while 37 percent relate negatively to America.

Russia Direct requires a subscription (free) to read, and it is quite in-depth. It attempts to soften the rhetoric somewhat, however it is a publication owned and published by the Russian government and thus will always take the Russian view of a disagreement. An example of this is their reporting of "unifying" Crimea as opposed to "annexation" language.

In the same article:

Quote
The majority of them (78 percent) are convinced that the U.S. today “most likely plays a negative role” in the world, while only seven percent consider it to be “most likely a positive role.”

It gives hope that, according to the opinion of 62 percent of Russians, good relations between the U.S. and Russia are necessary in equal measure for both countries.

One takeaway: as regards Ukraine, most Russians do not view this as a conflict between Russia and Ukraine, rather as a conflict between Russia and the West.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 17, 2015, 09:37:14 AM
There are several groups in the government and each has an opposing agenda. Medvedev is one of the moderates. Right now he is under a lot of pressure and I am not sure how long he will last. If forced out, that will not be a good sign.

Correct me if I am wrong but Putin gave Medvedev an audition how he would react if he were his successor and Medvedev failed the interview because instead of covering up for Putin like Putin did for Sobchak and Yeltsin, Medvedev acted like a decent human being.  Fact or fiction?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 17, 2015, 11:20:34 AM
There are several groups in the government and each has an opposing agenda. Medvedev is one of the moderates. Right now he is under a lot of pressure and I am not sure how long he will last. If forced out, that will not be a good sign.

So what are the dynamics IYHO between Medvedev and Putin in layman's terms an American can grasp? Wasn't Medvedev Putin's stooge to hold the presidency until Putin could manipulate the Duma and constitution and return to the "throne"? Would that make Medvedev complicit in the evil doers deeds?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 17, 2015, 12:01:04 PM
Fact, to a point.

Had events in the Middle East not changed, Libya and Egypt for example, Medvedev would still be president. Putin had worried of another Orange or Rose or Velvet revolution coming closer to home, but especially the outcome of events in Tripoli really made him nervous.

In mid August (2011) the wife and I were in the centre of Moscow. She was in a hair salon and I had gone across the street to a McDonald's for an iced tea. Later in the day I was scheduled to attend a banquet at which Mr. Gorbachev and other leaders were to announce the formation of the coming Medvedev campaign. Medvedev at that point had significant support from business and other leaders, especially against the backdrop of Medvedev's plans to diversify the economy and in particular the IT high tech and banking sectors.

I received an urgent call that Medvedev had been summoned to join Putin on a fishing vacation on the Volga river down in the Astrakhan region. Although none of us may ever know the exact extent of their private conversations, I believe that it was on that outing that Putin let Medvedev know of changing plans--or at least the possibility that the plan might change.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2acVgkKn7E4



This was not the only time the two have gone fishing, a sport that Putin enjoys, and as usual Mr. Putin always catches the largest fish. Medvedev fishes for the cameras, then takes up a camera himself as he is an avid nature photographer (and a very good one, at that.)

It had been their understanding that Medvedev would likely continue, but that the decision would be reevaluated prior to the next election cycle. After that event, one could see that although reelection plans continued for a short time, the sizzle seemed to be missing. In hindsight, the reelection lights were still on, but nobody was home, so to speak. In September Putin announced plans to retake the position.

In November of that same year, Mr. Putin attended a martial arts show and when introduced, was embarrassed by booing from the mainly young audience. That took him off guard, and reinforced his fears of what might happen were not a very firm hand on the wheel. In the prior year (2010) Russia was marked by massive street protests by the opposition, and especially unsettling to Putin was the December 2010 protests by young nationalists just steps from the Kremlin. Those are his voters, and he was clearly shaken. Ironically that came just after he had been in Piter singing "Blueberry Hill" to gaping and very gullible Americans from Hollyweird.

Rejecting Medvedev's plans for diversification (IT and high tech are things that Oligarchs cannot easily control), Mr. Putin instead decided to retake control and move back towards a more centralized and less democratic system. The massive cost overruns and bloated spending for the Olympics were, at least in part, payback for those Oligarchs who in the shadows approved his path of action.

Despite their differences, and there are many differences, the two have worked together for a long time. Putin values loyalty and stability, and Medvedev represents both. They both hearken back to Piter, and to being discipled by Sobchak. Medvedev is a law professor at heart and Sobchak was one of his primary law mentors. As you may remember, Sobchak was heavily involved in writing the Constitution of the RF. Therein lies another difference between the two: Medvedev believed that Russia needed to become a nation of laws and many of his planned judicial reforms were quietly swept under the rug after Putin returned to power.

There is an age difference in this "marriage" and some believe Putin had hoped that the younger Medvedev would be the perfect protector for a long time--time enough for ordinary Russian prosecutors to forget any corruption leads.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 17, 2015, 12:24:22 PM
Interesting stuff, Mendy.

I've always had the feeling that given the opportunity Medvedev would become Putin's Brutus.

Although he has much to answer for it seems he was always more interested in integrating Russia into the fraternity of civilized nations instead of conquering them. More along the lines of G8 leadership, so to speak.

If his vision for Russia differs from Putin's vision he's probably wise to keep it to himself these days.

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on January 17, 2015, 12:28:28 PM
Interesting summary Mendy.  Thanks for posting it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 17, 2015, 01:46:07 PM
Medvedev fired a lot of Putin's cronies.  Sobchak like Yeltsin is a crook.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 17, 2015, 03:07:09 PM
Putin is acting more the paranoid Stalin character these days.  I wonder how much more time Medvedev has before he is routed from the government.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 17, 2015, 03:09:09 PM
Putin is acting more the paranoid Stalin character these days.  I wonder how much more time Medvedev has before he is routed from the government.

Medvedev might be fired but hopefully within a few years when Putin commits suicide Medvedev or another reformer will be back.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 17, 2015, 05:21:38 PM
Medvedev's loyalty may be his downfall, that is if he isn't ousted first. One can stay too long in a situation and thus become personally linked to all the things that went wrong.

OTOH, the Kremlin is like the mafia--there is no formal "retirement" plan under which one just walks away from it all. The last one to do that was likely Alexei Kudrin, former Minister of Finance, and one of the most brilliant financial minds in Russia.

Some of the starkest differences between M and P are:
- Medvedev favored a free and independent media, whereas Putin has consolidated state control of media.
- Medvedev strengthened the prosecutors office and other efforts to curtain corruption. Putin thrives by harnessing and controlling corruption.
- Medvedev is a "rule of law" kind of guy, while Putin seems to prefer a "telephone verdict" kind of mentality.
- Medvedev favors a diversified economic base and small business creation. Putin has a strong preference for large companies owned by a few individuals whom he can control.

At this point Medvedev isn't reelectable in my view. Most Russians have a somewhat negative to neutral view of his time in office. Russians are told that they like stability, and they are then reminded that supposedly nobody provides stability quite like VP. The inference of course then reflects negatively on Medvedev.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 17, 2015, 06:10:05 PM
Any potential successor to Putin will get the early "retirement" plan option executed for them.The more desperate the overall situation becomes-and it is worsening by the day-the more desperate and erratic Putin will become.
The easiest prediction-Putin will do anything to hang on to power.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 17, 2015, 09:58:27 PM
But if USA were to take over Great Britain, then USA taxpayers would be saddled with huge educational costs of teaching proper English language to the folks there.

I don't know if Obama Care covers dental, but if it does we would also have to pay to fix all their bad teeth!   :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on January 18, 2015, 02:13:24 AM
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 18, 2015, 07:39:06 AM
Medvedev's loyalty may be his downfall, that is if he isn't ousted first. One can stay too long in a situation and thus become personally linked to all the things that went wrong.

OTOH, the Kremlin is like the mafia--there is no formal "retirement" plan under which one just walks away from it all. The last one to do that was likely Alexei Kudrin, former Minister of Finance, and one of the most brilliant financial minds in Russia.

Some of the starkest differences between M and P are:
- Medvedev favored a free and independent media, whereas Putin has consolidated state control of media.
- Medvedev strengthened the prosecutors office and other efforts to curtain corruption. Putin thrives by harnessing and controlling corruption.
- Medvedev is a "rule of law" kind of guy, while Putin seems to prefer a "telephone verdict" kind of mentality.
- Medvedev favors a diversified economic base and small business creation. Putin has a strong preference for large companies owned by a few individuals whom he can control.

At this point Medvedev isn't reelectable in my view. Most Russians have a somewhat negative to neutral view of his time in office. Russians are told that they like stability, and they are then reminded that supposedly nobody provides stability quite like VP. The inference of course then reflects negatively on Medvedev.

Medvedev was also on record favoring great strides in the IT marketplace including software development crucibles.  Unfortunately, this plan of development was curtailed with the internet restrictions and seizure of internet assets.
Title: Kremlin announced onlinespread anti-Ukrainian propaganda
Post by: JayH on January 19, 2015, 03:27:43 AM
Not a surprise !!

The Kremlin announced a set of online volunteers to spread anti-Ukrainian propaganda

The Russian social network VKontakte was reported finding distributors of information from some "Denis Ochakovo" - ostensibly the analyst "New Russia".

"Denis" is trying to expand the distribution network of anti-Ukrainian information regarding the war in Donbas platform social network.
At the same time, he makes a reservation, that information is ready and the task of "helpers" just bring it to other users of the social network: "We need convinced assistants who believe in the victory of New Russia, and ready to fight in the information field," calls for "Dennis".

Assessing the situation from the point of view of information warfare, the conclusion:

Firstly, "Denis Ochakovskiy" - a fictional character from Moscow. It came out "please" and not from the occupied Donbass. Most likely, "Denis" - a Kremlin propaganda link chain.

Second, the rate on volonterov- "assistants Denis" is among adolescents. Pupils and students make up 90% of users VKontakte. Obviously, according to the Kremlin leaders "Denis", the youth must also shape their media environment. Generally, information putinyugend - an innovation in the history of information warfare.

Third, experts who planned this operation, certainly makes cool calculation to find like-minded immature teenage minds both in Russia and abroad. There is a view of the Russian diaspora, as well as the Russian-speaking audience of Belarus, Kazakhstan, the Baltic states, the Caucasus, Central Asia and other countries. The mouth of the Russian-speaking child will speak the truth, "Dennis Ochakovo".

Thus, the conclusion: the Kremlin information campaign against Ukraine tries to capture new audiences through social networks. At this time, operated youthful consciousness of Russia and Russian-speaking audiences abroad. Such a scheme will undoubtedly earn about a month and give its advocacy results.

Is not it time to Ukraine to create mechanisms to counter enemy propaganda on the system state level?
http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/8985-kreml-obyavil-nabor-internet-volonterov-dlya-rasprostraneniya-antiukrainskoy-propagandy
Title: Russian Terrorism
Post by: JayH on January 19, 2015, 03:44:11 AM
How the command system works-

Kremlin sponsors terrorists Donbass

Statements by Russian officials about nothing to do with the events in the Donbas and do not have a grain of truth. The Russian government apparatus operates a complete system to assist gunmen in the breakaway republics of Donbass. For Russian officials, they - "militia." Millions of Russians do not realize that their taxes are spent on the maintenance of the Russian aggression in Ukraine, more simply, for those "rebels". A round of inflation in 2014 with multi-billion dollar spending on the war even more deteriorating political and economic situation in Russia.

Repeated assurances Putin and Lavrov that Russia does not participate in the war in the east of Ukraine, even on a floppy west called a lie. Help militants from Moscow really comes and it been established at the state level. At the same time, the Kremlin holds the official position - "in Ukraine is an internal conflict and Russia does not participate in it."

But there is an objective point of view, which differs from the opinion of the Russian president. So, December 15, 2014, many Russian media spread the news that Russian Prime M.Medvedev signed a decree on the establishment of the Interdepartmental Commission for the provision of humanitarian support to affected areas in southeastern Donetsk and Lugansk regions of Ukraine . Apparently - the goal of this body - to legalize covert aid the rebels in the east of Ukraine. At the same time, in his decree Medvedev has identified the main challenges for the newly created Commission:

http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/10867-kremlevskie-sponsory-terroristov-donbassa
Title: Re: Russian Terrorism
Post by: JayH on January 19, 2015, 03:48:43 AM
Kremlin accomplices of terrorists Donbass. Part 2

Videos



Of course, in all cases it is solely about "humanitarian" assistance to residents of the zone ATO. But the terrorists still strangely "materialize" the latest military equipment (a few days ago a group of "IP" publish photos and videos from Lugansk, where the recorded samples of military equipment, which is in service only in the Russian army - cm. Below), and the Russian-terrorist troops to rotate, and increasing their presence.In addition, in Donetsk created as elements of a single supply chain terrorists, three "warehouse-distribution points," through which the supply of units of local militias and mercenaries Russian ammunition, spare parts for armored vehicles and fuel. Issuance of material resources, as the coordinator of the group "IP" Dmitry Tymchuk, carried out exclusively by groups who are subject to a single command. In some settlements in the occupied zone of Russian art so much that it is necessary to disperse the rebels to hide its significant accumulation. In addition, the continuously recorded facts arrival in Ukraine of the Russian convoys of supply with fuel and ammunition. Again, these deliveries are carried out under the guise of "humanitarian convoys"

http://sprotyv.info/ru/news/11199-kremlevskie-posobniki-terroristov-donbassa-chast-2
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 19, 2015, 11:05:58 AM
Outside of "Rain" TV in Moscow, the only other non-Kremlin owned/controlled television has been silenced. TV-2, broadcasting form the Siberian city of Tomsk, was shut down by state broadcast authorities.

Ironically, they did so in telling fashion. It is the tradition for all media in Russia to broadcast the brief presidential speech from the Kremlin at midnight on New Year's Eve. Authorities allowed Mr. Putin's speech and the national anthem to play, then shut down the transmitter. The station was large: it employed some 300 persons, and reached much of Siberia.

The last news anchor, Yulia Muchnik, told viewers what was about to happen, saying "... then the chimes (Kremlin clocktower at midnight) will strike. Our special chimes. Well, we are small players and big, important state authorities are pulling the plug. Don't miss it and be with us until the end of this difficult 2014."

The RTRS (Russian Radio and Television Broadcasting Network) claimed the shut-down was due to a contractual dispute, but had no explanation for what that might have been. TV-2 management says it was because they refused to accept Kremlin control over news content.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 19, 2015, 01:20:29 PM
It tells me that Putin fears an independent Siberia.
Title: Re: Kremlin announced onlinespread anti-Ukrainian propaganda
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 19, 2015, 04:49:11 PM
Not a surprise !!

The Kremlin announced a set of online volunteers to spread anti-Ukrainian propaganda

The Russian social network VKontakte was reported finding distributors of information from some "Denis Ochakovo" - ostensibly the analyst "New Russia".Third, experts who planned this operation, certainly makes cool calculation to find like-minded immature teenage minds both in Russia and abroad. There is a view of the Russian diaspora, as well as the Russian-speaking audience of Belarus, Kazakhstan, the Baltic states, the Caucasus, Central Asia and other countries. The mouth of the Russian-speaking child will speak the truth, "Dennis Ochakovo".

This sounds exactly like the way that Gator describes his stepson, despite the boy having access to media resources that are completely unfettered by the Kremlin.

 :cluebat: :wallbash: :deadhorse:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 20, 2015, 12:38:30 PM
Outside of "Rain" TV in Moscow, the only other non-Kremlin owned/controlled television has been silenced. TV-2, broadcasting form the Siberian city of Tomsk, was shut down by state broadcast authorities.

Ironically, they did so in telling fashion. It is the tradition for all media in Russia to broadcast the brief presidential speech from the Kremlin at midnight on New Year's Eve. Authorities allowed Mr. Putin's speech and the national anthem to play, then shut down the transmitter. The station was large: it employed some 300 persons, and reached much of Siberia.

The last news anchor, Yulia Muchnik, told viewers what was about to happen, saying "... then the chimes (Kremlin clocktower at midnight) will strike. Our special chimes. Well, we are small players and big, important state authorities are pulling the plug. Don't miss it and be with us until the end of this difficult 2014."

The RTRS (Russian Radio and Television Broadcasting Network) claimed the shut-down was due to a contractual dispute, but had no explanation for what that might have been. TV-2 management says it was because they refused to accept Kremlin control over news content.

There were protests in Tomsk over the station being shut down. As best I could gather it was the refusal of the authority in Moscow to renew the license/contract. Yulia is a friend of my wife's.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 20, 2015, 12:41:49 PM
There were protests in Tomsk over the station being shut down. As best I could gather it was the refusal of the authority in Moscow to renew the license/contract. Yulia is a friend of my wife's.


Mark my words, Russia's Orange Revolution will come from Siberia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 20, 2015, 01:03:00 PM

Mark my words, Russia's Orange Revolution will come from Siberia.

I dunno, Putin has a pretty strong arm of support in Siberia right now from what I can see but, I'll be the first to admit I only see the surface. Many of my old friends there would echo Doll and Belvis. Things do seem to be getting progressively worse but, they don't seem to be making the connection
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 20, 2015, 03:07:31 PM
I agree sadly
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 20, 2015, 03:13:00 PM
I dunno, Putin has a pretty strong arm of support in Siberia right now from what I can see but, I'll be the first to admit I only see the surface. Many of my old friends there would echo Doll and Belvis. Things do seem to be getting progressively worse but, they don't seem to be making the connection


I said it before, just because the polls show 80% of the people supporting Putler doesn't mean that 80% likes him. Also, remember that the referendum in Ukraine passed with 114% yea votes.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 20, 2015, 03:57:47 PM

I said it before, just because the polls show 80% of the people supporting Putler doesn't mean that 80% likes him. Also, remember that the referendum in Ukraine passed with 114% yea votes.


There's been some independent polling from the West and they've got Putin up 80%. Obama is at 40% and American's aren't near thinking revolution so Putin has quite a cushion to play with. Politically, he's in a very good spot.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 20, 2015, 04:08:32 PM

There's been some independent polling from the West and they've got Putin up 80%. Obama is at 40% and American's aren't near thinking revolution so Putin has quite a cushion to play with. Politically, he's in a very good spot.


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/worf_zpscdd43ea9.gif)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 20, 2015, 05:26:05 PM

I said it before, just because the polls show 80% of the people supporting Putler doesn't mean that 80% likes him. Also, remember that the referendum in Ukraine passed with 114% yea votes.

I can say this, I know a few folks in Siberia that despise Putin and his actions privately but they would never make that declaration publicly. I also know some that act indifferent but they are not. They're just being safe. My own MIL truly one of the sweetest women I have ever known and is not well versed on world events but, will support the Putin machine because she's Russian. She would never say anything against Putin or Moscow, ever.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 21, 2015, 12:11:00 AM
I agree.  It is wishful thinking to say otherwise.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 21, 2015, 03:18:58 PM
A list of top 20 Russian propagandists

http://goupillon.wordpress.com/2015/01/19/who-can-you-trust/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 21, 2015, 03:21:14 PM

There's been some independent polling from the West and they've got Putin up 80%. Obama is at 40% and American's aren't near thinking revolution so Putin has quite a cushion to play with. Politically, he's in a very good spot.

Link please?  I've said it before and I will say it again -- my personal guess is that Putin's real popularity is about 60%.  The other 40% have finally woken up smelled the coffee and realize their country is going in the wrong direction. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 21, 2015, 06:29:23 PM
Link please?  I've said it before and I will say it again -- my personal guess is that Putin's real popularity is about 60%.  The other 40% have finally woken up smelled the coffee and realize their country is going in the wrong direction.

Pretty easy link to find.  Quite common knowledge.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/11/14/love-him-or-hate-him-vladimir-putins-poll-numbers-have-never-been-higher/

As for Obummer, I'd say his numbers are around 45% right now after the State of the Union.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on January 21, 2015, 07:37:02 PM
I can say this, I know a few folks in Siberia that despise Putin and his actions privately but they would never make that declaration publicly. I also know some that act indifferent but they are not. They're just being safe. My own MIL truly one of the sweetest women I have ever known and is not well versed on world events but, will support the Putin machine because she's Russian. She would never say anything against Putin or Moscow, ever.

The same situation in Ukraine prior to Yuno being thrown out.  Unless you are pretty close to someone they will not discuss politics or their views.  Carryover from the Soviet days when neighbors reported each other to the authorities.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 21, 2015, 07:55:12 PM
Link please?  I've said it before and I will say it again -- my personal guess is that Putin's real popularity is about 60%.  The other 40% have finally woken up smelled the coffee and realize their country is going in the wrong direction.


Putin's Russia isn't Stalin's USSR. People are freer to speak their mind as long as they don't put it in print. There may be a certain fear factor when a pollster calls citizens who may suspect it's the FSB calling them. Good poll companies take that into account and will minimize the fear factor so they could get accurate data.


Jone provided poll numbers from a respected source. Here is another source below. Notice how Putin's numbers were down at 54% in 2013 and has taken about a 30% jump since he took Crimea and engaging Ukraine. At least 46% did not approve of Putin in 2013 and most of them changed their mind. Putin's popularity has risen and that is no illusion.


What is more scary is the amount of hate Russians have for America and the EU now. America is at 4% and EU at 6%. Why did a madman like Hitler get so much support? Because Europe made Germans pay war reparations after WW1 and hurt the quality of their life. Russians hate the sanctions we applied on their nation and their anger is directed at us, not Putin. This could get dangerous since most Russians would support Putin if he decides hurt those living in the West.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/173597/russian-approval-putin-soars-highest-level-years.aspx
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 21, 2015, 07:59:57 PM
Pretty easy link to find.  Quite common knowledge.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/markadomanis/2014/11/14/love-him-or-hate-him-vladimir-putins-poll-numbers-have-never-been-higher/

As for Obummer, I'd say his numbers are around 45% right now after the State of the Union.

Hmmm...and I thought you were an Obama fan. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 21, 2015, 08:06:10 PM
I can say this, I know a few folks in Siberia that despise Putin and his actions privately but they would never make that declaration publicly. I also know some that act indifferent but they are not. They're just being safe. My own MIL truly one of the sweetest women I have ever known and is not well versed on world events but, will support the Putin machine because she's Russian. She would never say anything against Putin or Moscow, ever.
The same situation in Ukraine prior to Yuno being thrown out.  Unless you are pretty close to someone they will not discuss politics or their views.  Carryover from the Soviet days when neighbors reported each other to the authorities.



Exactly my thoughts Doug when I read FP comments.
As an observation--- that category of citizen is remote from the coal face of reform--that will come from the intelligentsia of more sophisticated big cities  and if conceptually "correct" will spread from there. Polls of popularity will never reflect radical reforms until they have much wider acceptance.
eg in Ukraine--   far more came to accept Maidan  after the events were clear than were prepared to say so at the time. so anecdotal stories confirm some points-- it adds nothing to a debate about real support levels.
When push comes to shove in Russia--what the people think at large will not be the factor that matters  in change in Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 21, 2015, 09:45:48 PM
Here is a case where the local Ukrainian's are angry with the Ukrainian army and presumably sympathetic to the separatists.


http://news.yahoo.com/father-buries-4-old-son-curses-ukraines-war-141947336.html;_ylt=AwrTHRfPf8BU8D8A2JxXNyoA (http://news.yahoo.com/father-buries-4-old-son-curses-ukraines-war-141947336.html;_ylt=AwrTHRfPf8BU8D8A2JxXNyoA)


It could be that Europe is reluctant to involve itself in a situation where some of the populace would be against them....so it continues to remain an issue between Ukraine and Russia.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 21, 2015, 09:57:59 PM
Here is a case where the local Ukrainian's are angry with the Ukrainian army and presumably sympathetic to the separatists.


http://news.yahoo.com/father-buries-4-old-son-curses-ukraines-war-141947336.html;_ylt=AwrTHRfPf8BU8D8A2JxXNyoA (http://news.yahoo.com/father-buries-4-old-son-curses-ukraines-war-141947336.html;_ylt=AwrTHRfPf8BU8D8A2JxXNyoA)


It could be that Europe is reluctant to involve itself in a situation where some of the populace would be against them....so it continues to remain an issue between Ukraine and Russia.


Fathertime!

This isn't really news.  Just more dirty tricks thought up by Putin's FSB/GRU machine.  The "separatists" are pulling the same stunts that Hezbollah plays.  They embed in civilian's homes and hospitials and other civilian buildings, then fire their rockets at the Ukrainian forces.  When the Ukrainian forces return fire the "separatists" have left, but some civilians are killed.  Tragic yes, but totally the fault of Putler and his war criminals.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 21, 2015, 10:55:13 PM
Europe is a big place divided against itself with Central Europe favoring Russia, the Baltic's against, and most indifferent at best.  Who do you think Obama will pick for the Super Bowl?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 22, 2015, 12:12:48 AM
This isn't really news.  Just more dirty tricks thought up by Putin's FSB/GRU machine.  The "separatists" are pulling the same stunts that Hezbollah plays.  They embed in civilian's homes and hospitials and other civilian buildings, then fire their rockets at the Ukrainian forces.  When the Ukrainian forces return fire the "separatists" have left, but some civilians are killed.  Tragic yes, but totally the fault of Putler and his war criminals.

Not only firing from residential areas--firing at them while disguised as Ukrainian army.There is no end to how disgusting this Russian scum are.

Military Russia invade Ukraine as "peacekeepers" under white flags

Russian soldiers cynically fired localities East Ukraine.



Soldiers sent to the territory of the Russian Federation under the guise of Donbass "peacekeeping force". This was an exclusive interview TSN.ua said Russian human rights activist and founder of "Cargo 200 from Ukraine to Russia" Elena Vasileva. She said that earlier Russian soldiers threw in Ukraine, giving it for training. Currently, according to her, the military RF throw in Donetsk and Luhansk region under white flags "peacekeeping force". See also: Putin thrown in Ukraine "gold reserves" - Russian human rights activist "Now this is not" training ". Rather, soldiers introduced as a" peacekeeping force ". A lot of it is my report. Servicemen forced to attach to the form of white ribbons and even hang white flags on the tanks that are outright cynicism when tank white flag goes and shoots on some locality, "- said Vasiliev.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/politika/viyskovi-rf-vtorgayutsya-v-ukrayinu-yak-mirotvorci-pid-bilimi-praporami-pravozahisnicya-404297.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 22, 2015, 12:22:33 AM
 Human shield tactics; Russian-backed insurgents allegedly firing grad rockets from residential areas (VIDEO)

These grad rocket attacks seen here in unverified footage uploaded to a social media website are allegedly being fired from residential areas of Donetsk in East Ukraine.

Further evidence Ukraine says, that Russia's proxy army is once again using human shield tactics in its effort to seize more Ukrainian land by force.

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/video-2/ukraine-today-human-shield-tactics-russian-backed-insurgents-allegedly-firing-grad-rockets-from-residential-areas-video-377705.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 22, 2015, 12:27:26 AM
Human shield tactics; Russian-backed insurgents allegedly firing grad rockets from residential areas (VIDEO)

These grad rocket attacks seen here in unverified footage uploaded to a social media website are allegedly being fired from residential areas of Donetsk in East Ukraine.

Further evidence Ukraine says, that Russia's proxy army is once again using human shield tactics in its effort to seize more Ukrainian land by force.

http://www.kyivpost.com/multimedia/video-2/ukraine-today-human-shield-tactics-russian-backed-insurgents-allegedly-firing-grad-rockets-from-residential-areas-video-377705.html

I know it might seem like pie in the sky thinking right now but I really do hope someday that certain high ranking Russian officials are prosecuted for war crimes, just like Slob Milosovich was.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 22, 2015, 01:22:07 AM
I know it might seem like pie in the sky thinking right now but I really do hope someday that certain high ranking Russian officials are prosecuted for war crimes, just like Slob Milosovich was.



I have a feeling Obama will offer Russia cash and assets to curb their bad behavior. Threatening jail is out of the question. If he's giving Iran billions before the nuke talks even end, he may have to offer Russia trillions to back off.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/21/us-to-award-iran-11-billion-through-end-nuke-talks/?intcmp=latestnews
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 22, 2015, 02:20:48 AM
Blackmail money.  So glad we destroyed most of our nukes . . .
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 22, 2015, 03:04:23 AM
Hmmm...and I thought you were an Obama fan.

Nope.  Voted for the other guy.  Twice. (Even though it was painful to vote for McCain.)  I am an independent who leans Republican.  I think the far right is in cloud cuckoo land.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 22, 2015, 03:35:21 AM
Yeah. Koo Koo land.. ..
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 22, 2015, 12:30:38 PM
Quote
I am an independent who leans Republican.

Independent also, leaning Libertarian. I like to tell opponents on both sides of the aisle that "I am not stupid enough to be a democrat and too smart to be a republican."


The bright side of the story is that Westerners have choices like this. In Russia today, to vocally oppose the Kremlin is to play with real danger.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 22, 2015, 03:05:32 PM
Plenty of blame to go round for the mess we are in though most it is on the Democrats and their allies in the established GOP.
Title: Russian Olympic Athletes Cheating
Post by: JayH on January 23, 2015, 02:39:46 AM





What a surprise-Russians cheating!Russian officials chasing bribes-well-that is cultural blindspot of normality on Putin's kleptocracy.
Along with Russia's anti social behaviour generally it extends to sport. Every international even should be taken off Russia-- they have chosen to be international pariah's -now also in sport.
It was obvious at the London Olympics that some Russian endurance athletes had remarkable performances .


German TV documentary alleges that ’99 percent’ of Russian Olympic athletes are doping

A German television documentary, broadcast Wednesday night, alleges that the Russian Olympic athletes — with assistance from the country’s anti-doping agency and the knowledge of a high-ranking IAAF official, also from Russia — have engaged in a massive doping operation, with one former Russian athlete saying that “99 percent” of the country’s Olympic athletes have used performance-enhancing drugs.

Another athlete claims she was extorted by Russia’s athletics federation, which demanded payment to cover up a positive doping test.

The documentary’s main allegations come from two Russian whistleblowers: Vitaly Stepanov, a former Russian Anti-Doping Agency official, and his wife, Yuliya Stepanova (formerly Yuliya Rusanova), a former 800-meter runner who has been banned because of abnormalities in her biological passport.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2014/12/04/german-tv-documentary-alleges-that-99-percent-of-russian-olympic-athletes-are-doping/


Title: Re: Russian Olympic Athletes Cheating
Post by: JayH on January 23, 2015, 02:44:34 AM
Paula Radcliffe tells film-maker to come clean over alleged list of 150 athletes that gave suspicious blood samples


Paula Radcliffe has hit out at a German documentary maker for not handing over documents he claims show a famous British athlete gave suspicious blood samples.

Investigative journalist Hajo Seppelt alleged an IAAF Medical Commission whistleblower had provided him with a list of 150 athletes who gave suspicious samples between 2006 and 2008 - including a famous British name - that were not followed up by drugs testers.

But despite several requests from the sport’s governing body the IAAF, Seppelt has not shared his list and Radcliffe, who has campaigned against drugs cheats throughout her long career, is angry.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on January 23, 2015, 09:44:59 AM
For those who still maintain there is no Russian soldiers or military equipment in Ukraine:

Quote
Over the last 72 hours, increaring reports of regular “Russian army” deployments inside Ukraine emerged, not only from blogging insiders and investigative homepages, but also from the Ukrainian president and army command themselves (a very rare move, despite the widely dominating verbal calming down attempts). Nonetheless, footage to prove such “new” statements was lagging over the first days, a fact, understandable under the current circumstances of the Moscow regime, not willing to uncover its full-scale military invasion into Ukraine. However since yesterday, January 22, several undeniable video sequences from different front sectors across Donbas emerged, undeniably supporting the Ukrainian intelligence reports.

http://conflictreport.info/2015/01/23/hard-evidence-the-regular-russian-army-invades-ukraine/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on January 23, 2015, 12:48:03 PM
For those who still maintain there is no Russian soldiers or military equipment in Ukraine:

http://conflictreport.info/2015/01/23/hard-evidence-the-regular-russian-army-invades-ukraine/

Good article. Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 23, 2015, 12:59:23 PM
For those who still maintain there is no Russian soldiers or military equipment in Ukraine:

http://conflictreport.info/2015/01/23/hard-evidence-the-regular-russian-army-invades-ukraine/


Изумруд, there is no need to prove Russian soldiers are in Ukraine. People have made up their mind and even if Putin is lying, many Pro Russians will not change their minds about Putin. After Putin took Crimea, he admitted the unidentified little green men there were his even though initially he said Russian troops weren't there. Did the Russian people get mad at Putin for lying? NO. Most were actually impressed Putin used whatever means necessary to get what he wants and Russians are proud Putin is taking steps to bring them back to the glory days.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 24, 2015, 12:55:51 AM

Hillary Clinton mocks Putin.  She seems more relaxed and less shrill.  She might win.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 24, 2015, 05:49:02 AM
Doll, read this and if it's possible for you to truthfully answer...  :wallbash: :wallbash:

 http://awoxx-2207.livejournal.com/45523.html


 Can you still say that you're proud of your country..  :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on January 24, 2015, 06:03:28 AM
A country filled with descendants of rape victims of the Mongol horde.
Maybe that's where the Russkies get their warlike tendencies from...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 24, 2015, 06:30:42 AM
A country filled with descendants of rape victims of the Mongol horde.
Maybe that's where the Russkies get their warlike tendencies from...

 No! That's where they get the few good features that they have.  :rolleyes:
Title: Putin-War Criminal petition
Post by: JayH on January 24, 2015, 09:24:10 PM
Sign up--it can only help--

UN Security Council: To recognize the RF President Vladimir Putin war criminal

200000 141 282
141 282 signatories. Let's collect 200,000 signatures
Recognize the President of the Russian Federation Vladimir Putin war criminal
Title: Ruble’s Fall Checks Global Expansion of Pro-Kremlin Media
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 04:24:23 AM
We can only hope that they can't afford the other 50% !!

BREAKING: RT, TASS AND ROSSIYA SEGODNYA FORCED TO CUT BUDGETS FOR 2015 BY 50% - PROPAGANDA IS DYING

Ruble’s Fall Checks Global Expansion of Pro-Kremlin Media
By The Moscow Times @MoscowTimes
Pro-Kremlin broadcaster RT and news agency Rossiya Segodnya will have to slash spending by 50 percent or more and likely give up on expansion plans due to the ruble's steep devaluation.

Ruble’s Fall Checks Global Expansion of Pro-Kremlin Media

Pro-Kremlin broadcaster RT and news agency Rossiya Segodnya will have to slash spending by 50 percent or more and likely give up on expansion plans as the steep devaluation of the Russian ruble hits their margins, news reports said.

"The ruble's devaluation means that our budget is already cut almost in half," RT's editor-in-chief Margarita Simonyan was quoted as saying by the Vedomosti newspaper this week.

State-controlled RT, whose mission statement is to "acquaint an international audience with the Russian viewpoint," will likely have to cease broadcasting in many countries and give up on plans to create French- and German-language channels, Simonyan said. About 80 percent of the network's expenditures are in dollars and euros, she added.

Russian officials have said the same. "This year, financing for [overseas media] will be cut in half, if you consider the hard currency equivalent," Yekaterina Larina, head of the Communications and Press Ministry's department on state media policy, told news agency RIA Novosti earlier this month.

While RT had a budget of $445 million in 2014, based on an exchange rate of 30.5 rubles to the dollar, this year it will have only $236 million, RIA quoted Larina as saying. A dollar currently costs about 65 rubles following a sharp weakening of the Russian currency last year.

Title: Is Belarus the next target for Putin to conquer?
Post by: Larry1 on January 25, 2015, 11:36:50 AM
Quote
Russian Media Attack Belarus: A Warning For Minsk?

The past few weeks have seen an unusual increase of anti-Belarusian activity in pro-government Russian media and blogs.

The Kremlin has not yet used its strongest media tools. However, the manner of the attack is in some respects similar to the information warfare which preceded Russia's annexation of Crimea.

In the face of the unfolding economic crisis in Russia and Belarus and the Belarusian presidential elections scheduled for 2015, this could signal a new shift in the relations between Russia and the regime of Alexander Lukashenka.

First, the widely-read pro-Kremlin blogger Aleksandr Shumsky has published a detailed post saying that Belarus was a natural part of Russia and suggesting that Russia should actively prevent attempts of a pro-Western revolution in Belarus.

Then, the popular entertainment TV channel REN TV on December 20 aired a half-hour long film about Belarus claiming that the West is preparing a coup d’etat in Belarus, criticising both the Belarusian opposition and the regime of Lukashenka.

Failing to spell the names of some Belarusian politicians and media outlets correctly, REN TV told its viewers about Western-sponsored bloody revolt being prepared in Belarus. This film came out as part of a three hours long marathon of anti-Western propaganda, along with conspiracy theories and homophobia.

The influential nationalistic online publication Sputnik & Pogrom is regularly publishing articles denouncing the right of Belarusians to have an independent state, denouncing the existence of the Belarusian language and culture.

Some of the articles, in a typical manner, portray the Belarusian democratic opposition as Nazis and accuse Lukashenka of being weak and opportunistic. The fact that Lukashenka has maintained good relations with Ukraine in 2014 is also a topic for hysterically critical publications on different levels.

Although the media participating in this campaign do not always have a formal affiliation with the Kremlin, in today's Russia there can be no illusions as to the orchestration of such things or at least their approval by state ideologists...

http://belarusdigest.com/story/russian-media-attack-belarus-warning-minsk-21055

Mendy, what are your thoughts about this?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 25, 2015, 12:46:34 PM

Russian Media Attack Belarus: A Warning For Minsk?



If Russia wanted Belarus, Putin wouldn't give them a warning. This stuff in the news you're reading is to throw people off from what is really happening. Will Belarus be a victim or Trojan horse? I say Trojan horse if they want to keep their country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 25, 2015, 01:17:05 PM
Why would Russia foment anything in Belarus? It doesn't make sense as Lukashenko would comply with anything Moscow/Putin wanted. Sounds like more Kremlin disinformation. Hoping to turn attention away from Ukraine?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 25, 2015, 01:44:48 PM
Belarus has gone against Putlers wishes in recent times. They can think for themselves!  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 25, 2015, 02:14:49 PM
Belarus has gone against Putlers wishes in recent times. They can think for themselves!  :D

Mike I know you're capable of an intellectual discussion on topic. Please keep the slants because of your personal feelings on Ukraine aside? Belarus isn't Ukraine and exhibits none of the factors of Ukraine. Belarus is under an iron fist of the puppet controlled by the Kremlin. Just as Ukraine was before he took off running like his ass was on fire. Lukashenko's stability and economy is directly tied to Putin. So please, offer something more than chants or slogans
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 25, 2015, 02:17:54 PM
Mike I know you're capable of an intellectual discussion on topic. Please keep the slants because of your personal feelings on Ukraine aside? Belarus isn't Ukraine and exhibits none of the factors of Ukraine. Belarus is under an iron fist of the puppet controlled by the Kremlin. Just as Ukraine was before he took off running like his ass was on fire. Lukashenko's stability and economy is directly tied to Putin. So please, offer something more than chants or slogans

I'm afraid he's right about this Mike.  I figure if there are little green men in Belarus then they are getting ready to possibly swoop in on Kiev.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 25, 2015, 02:38:03 PM
Quote
Mendy, what are your thoughts about this?

Russia and Belarus exist in what is called a "union state" (since 1999) and although each is separate, they have a nominal union parliament. For example, when visitors enter either country, the migration card used for registration lists both the Russian Federation and the Republic of Belarus.

Russia and Belarus have never fully implemented that union for several reasons, one of which is that Lukashenko wants to someday be given Putin's spot. Putin, on the other hand, likes Luka about as much as he did his lackey Yanukovich--not all that much.

For his part, Lukashenko is an unreformed communist and runs Belarus according to those economic views. Russia may not be democratic any longer, but the Kremlin has tasted the fruits of capitalism and possesses no desire to go backwards.

The two men intimidate each other. Lukashenko is a giant next to Putin, but he is also fearful of Putin. In the past 12 months, Lukashenko has criticized Putin's annexation of Crimea, and does not support Russia's proxy war in Eastern Ukraine. To rub salt in the wound, Lukashenko has been very open and friendly to Ukrainian president Poroshenko (as has President Nazarbayev of Kazakhstan).

Putin has reciprocated by subtly calling the legitimacy of both nations into question, and sending little hints here and there that he might have to do something to fix that sometime in the future. He even went so far as hinting at a time line for Kazakhstan, subtly noting Nazarbayev's age and his travel for cancer treatments in Germany.

All three are tiptoeing around on this because they are the three founding nations of the Eurasian Union. (The union was Nazarbayev's idea in the first place.)

Do Lukashenko and Nazarbayev fear Russian expansion over their borders? Both have made statements about what might happen should Russia make such an advance. In fact, Lukashenko has voiced his concerns to Putin, and claims that he recently told the Russian president that,
Quote
“I say: Vladimir Vladimirovich, don’t worry, we don’t have any tension in this regard. You have to be alert, I tell him, because part of the Pskov, Smolensk and Bryansk lands once belonged to Belarus. So you’ll have to share.”

Both men were given a tour of the new Russian command centre after a CIS summit late last year. Nazarbayev looked impressed, but wary. Lukashenko, who had previously been treated to the tour last May, was visibly uncomfortable and sat several seats away from Putin and Nazarbayev. Part of the Eurasian agreements include giving Moscow the lead on military and policing matters across the union.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 25, 2015, 02:47:44 PM
Quote
I figure if there are little green men in Belarus then they are getting ready to possibly swoop in on Kiev.

Only if Lukashenko was pushed aside first. Luka is part Ukrainian and has been vocal from the start about opposing Russian aggression.

A Lukashenko quote to Western reporters:
Quote
“Let us not lie to each other: if not for Russia, ‘DNR’ and ‘LNR’ (rebel Eastern republics) would have been over a long time ago.”

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 25, 2015, 03:00:35 PM
Luka is part Ukrainian and has been vocal from the start about opposing Russian aggression.



Belarusians support that statement and Luka's popularity ratings have risen since he has given words of support to Ukraine but when it comes to living or dying/removed from power, Luka is going to choose Putin, not Ukraine, especially after he sees how the West is taking care of Ukraine. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 03:06:08 PM
The European Union vs. Russia:
Talking Heads:

http://youtu.be/JnJOsOzpz4k

Soros explains his rationale for a Lend-Lease/Marshall plan for Ukraine.  He also tells us why Spanish and other foreign fighters have joined Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 25, 2015, 03:39:51 PM
Igor's becoming an embarrassment to the Putin Regime. We may be reading of his 'retirement' soon...

Moscow agent Strelkov admits Russian army behind Crimean referendum

..."Iror Girkin tells Russian TV that Crimeans did not support Russian annexation

Ex-insurgent leader Igor Girkin ('Strelkov') has admitted in a recent Russian TV interview that the March 2014 Crimean referendum was forced through by Russian occupation forces and received almost no local support.

In an interview on the ‘Polit-Ring TV show on Russia's NeuroMirTV earlier this week, Girkin, who was present throughout the seizure of Crimea before playing a leading role in the Russian insurgency in east Ukraine, admitted that the whole referendum was only possible thanks to the presence of Russian troops.

During the interview, Girkin explained that Crimean MPs had been rounded up and forced to vote for a referendum on the separation of Crimea from Ukraine.

"I did not see any support from the (Crimean) state authorities in Simferopol where I was. It was militants who collected deputies and forced them to vote. Yes, I was one of commanders of those militants," Girkin told Russian TV.

The Russian annexation of Crimea in March 2014 has sparked the biggest European security crisis since the end of the Cold War, leading to a virtual freeze in ties between Russia and the EU. The Russian Federation has repeatedly defended the Crimean referendum as legitimate, and initially claimed that militant forces which seized strategic buildings and infrastructure throughout Crimea in the run-up to the vote were merely concerned local citizens.

However, Russian President Vladimir Putin later admitted that the Russian army had been deployed in Crimea prior to the referendum. Russia also denies sending regular Russian army forces into east Ukraine."...

http://uatoday.tv/news/moscow-agent-strelkov-admits-russian-army-behind-crimean-referendum-404995.html

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 25, 2015, 04:02:17 PM
We watched Bill Maher on HBO last night.  I get a kick out hearing the spin from the other side, coupled with humor.  Maher belongs to the Eduard Bernstein school of thought.

In the routine, Maher was critiquing the Obama administration.  He mentioned that the economy is coming back and that more people are employed.  Then he said he should mention the one big failure of the Obama team.  Here it was, I thought.  He'd highlight the failures in foreign policy.  He'd skewer the team for not engaging on overseas fronts.  Instead, he said that the Obama team has not done enough to heal the environment.   :wallbash:

Once a lib, always a lib.  Its in his blood.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 04:10:07 PM
Wow dude thanks for that
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 25, 2015, 05:00:46 PM
Only if Lukashenko was pushed aside first. Luka is part Ukrainian and has been vocal from the start about opposing Russian aggression.

A Lukashenko quote to Western reporters:

I guess I am not so sure about that.  He likes being in power I'm sure so in the end would likely choose Moscow over Ukraine.  He may be giving lip service to Poroshenko and may have genuine feelings.  Hard to know how it might play out though if he was given an ultimatum to cooperate with Moscow on allowing them to advance an invasion of Kiev from his territory.  I don't think it will come to that though.
Title: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 06:23:14 PM
Doll, and all of you like her, take a look at this.

http://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/01/graphic-warcrimes-russians-shoot.html

Look at the graphic videos that Russians are executing prisoners of war. So what do you Kremlin propagandist and sycophants have to say now? Who are the real Nazis here? More and more evidence is mounting that Russia is committing war crimes.

There is truly a special place in hell for people who support these types of tactics. Even if you somehow can remotely support Putin, you should condemn this in the strongest terms and speak against. Just remember, this can always come back on you and don't think it won't.

Just one more reason to annihilate all Russian troops in Ukraine.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: BillyB on January 25, 2015, 06:37:42 PM
Just one more reason to annihilate all Russian troops in Ukraine.



Western leaders aren't even close to thinking that yet.


In the article below, Obama stated he would now look at all options -- short of military intervention. He pledged to "ratchet up the pressure on Russia" and signaled that he took a dim view of some EU members' desire to revive their ailing economies by restoring full financial and trade ties with sanctions-hit Moscow.


French President Francois Hollande meanwhile expressed his "very strong concern"


Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov on Sunday blamed the latest upsurge in violence on "constant shelling" by Kiev's troops and Russia will do everything in it's power to bring peace to Ukraine.


When future Ukrainian cities under attack, we will read the same words from those guys again and again.


http://news.yahoo.com/ukraine-scrambles-rebel-attacks-140641115.html


http://news.yahoo.com/russias-lavrov-says-moscow-ready-push-peaceful-solution-134127776.html
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 06:41:15 PM
No SWIFT for Russia
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: sleepycat on January 25, 2015, 06:44:48 PM
On hindsight I am so glad the WOVO trip I made to St Pete's in 2013 ended up being resultless.
As this was before the current crisis there would have been no way of knowing if that lady was a Putinist or not. But from current polling there is 80% chance she ended up being a Putinist.

I can't imagine the embarrassment I would have suffered if I had married her and back in Australia she starts spewing all that Putinist crap to everyone she meets.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 06:45:16 PM
Russian troops execute Ukrainian POWs


Published on 25 Jan 2015
After taking Krasnyi Partyzan Russian troops sat 11 Ukrainian POWs down near a wall and shot the first in the head, shot the second in the heart, shot the third in chest and wounded a fourth before taking out a camera to film the dead and humiliate the remaining seven POWs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6of0JZ4_PbA&app=desktop
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 07:27:57 PM
Hey Doll, what do you have to say now?

Do you support this type of action from your Russian soldiers in Ukraine?
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: bagalia on January 25, 2015, 07:29:16 PM
This is what partisans do (on both sides). I can refer you to a Ukrainian partisan website if you wish.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 07:30:44 PM
According to some people in our camp, none of this is our concern.  This is not our war and nothing for us to go to war over.   . . .

If we would have done something sooner, we could have avoided this . . .
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 07:31:11 PM
This is what partisans do (on both sides). I can refer you to a Ukrainian partisan website if you wish.

Please
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 07:34:29 PM
This is what partisans do (on both sides). I can refer you to a Ukrainian partisan website if you wish.

I am far from a partisan. I do read both Russian and Ukrainian websites. Having watched this unfold when I was in Kyiv I realized this isn't about partisanship. It is about good vs. evil and Putin is the evil one in this equation.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 07:45:23 PM
Doll, and all of you like her, take a look at this.

h ttp://ukraineatwar.blogspot.com/2015/01/graphic-warcrimes-russians-shoot.html

Look at the graphic videos that Russians are executing prisoners of war. So what do you Kremlin propagandist and sycophants have to say now? Who are the real Nazis here? More and more evidence is mounting that Russia is committing war crimes.

There is truly a special place in hell for people who support these types of tactics. Even if you somehow can remotely support Putin, you should condemn this in the strongest terms and speak against. Just remember, this can always come back on you and don't think it won't.

Just one more reason to annihilate all Russian troops in Ukraine.


Doll never supported any war if you actually read what she posted.  I think you are in bad taste by trying to single her out here.  That doesn't surprise me from most here since if someone doesn't say what you want to hear you go on emotional tangents and name calling.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 08:00:45 PM
Doll continues to deny Russian troops are in Ukraine or won't admit to it. If Russian troops weren't in Ukraine these people would not have been executed. Lastly, the exact area that was attacked in Mariupo by Russians is an area where a woman I dated and wrote about in a trip report lives. We were still in contact until the attack and then nothing.

I am trying to find a list of who all were killed and injured as she doesn't answer her cell or home phone. These Russians are savages and if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem. So the Russians that support Putin have blood on their hands too.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: sleepycat on January 25, 2015, 08:04:35 PM
As the old saying goes...

The only good Putinist is a dead Putinist.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:06:07 PM
Doll continues to deny Russian troops are in Ukraine or won't admit to it. If Russian troops weren't in Ukraine these people would not have been executed. Lastly, the exact area that was attacked in Mariupo by Russians is an area where a woman I dated and wrote about in a trip report lives. We were still in contact until the attack and then nothing.

I am trying to find a list of who all were killed and injured as she doesn't answer her cell or home phone. These Russians are savages and if you aren't part of the solution then you are part of the problem. So the Russians that support Putin have blood on their hands too.


From my understanding, Doll and Belvis believes this is a civil war.  I don't know if they believe Putin is helping the cause or not.


Still, I have not seen either of them say they were happy for the war nor have I seen them say they were pro-war.  That is the narrative you and many others are assigning to them simply because they believe it is a civil war.   I get assigned Pro-Russia simply because I won't say what people keep demanding me to say.  If I say don't trust western media, I am also then called Pro-Russian.

If you guys want some dialog, I suggest stopping these types of labels.  I don't think you really want discussion, though.  This seems to be more of a group of guys who just bitch and show links about the same thing over and over again.  I think some of the guys wishing the worst on all Russians are not any better than the people they condemn.


I hope your friend is safe.


Edited to add: It was my understanding that Ukranian rebels (yeah there really are some) were executing fellow Ukrainians.  Is that not true?  I'm wondering why you think it is only Russian soldiers doing this.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 08:13:23 PM
According to some people in our camp, none of this is our concern.  This is not our war and nothing for us to go to war over.   . . .


I'd agree with those people. 



If we would have done something sooner, we could have avoided this . . .


That is you making an assertion.  There is no saying what might have happened....there is a good chance things would be much worse by now, had we joined in.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 08:14:44 PM
The ONLY people calling this a civil war, which it isn't, are the Russians. I was in Crimes when the little green men showed up. I'll was in Kiev when snipers were shooting civilians. This is NOT a.civil war. Russian soldiers are in Ukraine. It is an invasion. Russians claim it is civil and to try to obfuscate. I'll was in a war,  I know the difference. Russia has an huge amount of resources deployed in country and on the border. The world needs to call it what it is; a Russian invasion.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 08:16:18 PM


There is truly a special place in hell for people who support these types of tactics.


Since it is very likely Pro western partisan's are employing these tactics as well, is there a 'special place in hell' for those that support them too?


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:16:50 PM
The ONLY people calling this a civil war, which it isn't, are the Russians. I was in Crimes when the little green men showed up. I'll was in Kiev when snipers were shooting civilians. This is NOT a.civil war. Russian soldiers are in Ukraine. It is an invasion. Russians claim it is civil and to try to obfuscate. I'll was in a war,  I know the difference. Russia has an huge amount of resources deployed in country and on the border. The world needs to call it what it is; a Russian invasion.


Instead of addressing my post you simply extracted "Civil War" out of it and went on a tangent.  Like I said, you guys are not interested in discussion.  You are interested in emotional tangents.  I will leave you and the others to it...
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: AC on January 25, 2015, 08:19:15 PM
The ONLY people calling this a civil war, which it isn't, are the Russians. I was in Crimes when the little green men showed up. I'll was in Kiev when snipers were shooting civilians. This is NOT a.civil war. Russian soldiers are in Ukraine. It is an invasion. Russians claim it is civil and to try to obfuscate. I was in a war,  I know the difference. Russia has an huge amount of resources deployed in country and on the border. The world needs to call it what it is; a Russian invasion.

 :clapping:   :clapping:   :clapping:
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Doll on January 25, 2015, 08:20:28 PM
;
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:22:32 PM

Instead of addressing my post you simply extracted "Civil War" out of it and went on a tangent.  Like I said, you guys are not interested in discussion.  You are interested in emotional tangents.  I will leave you and the others to it...


I think he did address your post.  He addressed the portion that he believed was salient.  That is the part I would have taken as the main point of your post as well.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: calmissile on January 25, 2015, 08:24:30 PM
A much better video for all our pro-Russian folks to view.
It has been recently restricted to require log in to YouTube to verify age.
It is of the Russian attack on Mariupol.   Graphic!
This is a video in near real time of the shelling.

It's worth the login trouble.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsfGH8JXprE
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:24:48 PM
In terms of executions, my understanding is, Pravyi Sekhtor fighters were tortured and executed, regular soldiers, in the past, were not,  Pravyi Sekhtor also did not take prisoners.


However, the terrorists have proclaimed they will no longer take prisoners.  But, they have since that statement, so I don't know what the truth is.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:26:02 PM

I think he did address your post.  He addressed the portion that he believed was salient.  That is the part I would have taken as the main point of your post as well.


No, I have to disagree.  Doll and Belvis are Russian so his point about only Russians thinking it was a civil war was pretty much common sense for everyone here.



That still doesn't make them pro-war or any other names being hurled at them.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Doll on January 25, 2015, 08:26:16 PM
 '
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:29:44 PM

No, I have to disagree.  Doll and Belvis are Russian so his point about only Russians thinking it was a civil war was pretty much common sense for everyone here.


But that point was salient.  The only posters here who refer to this conflict as a civil war are Russians, or "pro Russians".
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:32:03 PM

But that point was salient.  The only posters here who refer to this conflict as a civil war are Russians, or "pro Russians".


No, this was the important point. 

Quote
Still, I have not seen either of them say they were happy for the war nor have I seen them say they were pro-war.  That is the narrative you and many others are assigning to them simply because they believe it is a civil war.   I get assigned Pro-Russia simply because I won't say what people keep demanding me to say.  If I say don't trust western media, I am also then called Pro-Russian.


When this first happened, I was originally believing this was a civil war as well.  I wasn't Russian nor Pro-Russian. 

haha This forum text size is killing me.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
Different posters will find different things the most important part of a post.


I didn't take the part you quoted as the most important part, but if you want a debate on media, I think your view of Western media is incorrect.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: jone on January 25, 2015, 08:36:07 PM
Just curious LFU: You said 'when this thing started' you considered it a civil war.  At what point in the timeline did you consider this a civil war and now do you believe it is 'not' a civil war?
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:37:13 PM
Different posters will find different things the most important part of a post.


haha  Yeah, whatever fits their narrative will be singled out instead of taking the whole post in context.  That was one of my points.


Quote
I didn't take the part you quoted as the most important part, but if you want a debate on media, I think your view of Western media is incorrect.


I think we already went down that road.  I'm afraid we would only be repeating ourselves but then again that seems to be the case in most threads here.  ;)
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:39:00 PM
Quote
haha  Yeah, whatever fits their narrative will be singled out instead of taking the whole post in context.  That was one of my points.

I disagree with this.  Posters will naturally respond to that which interests them.

I have gone to the website linked.  It appears these were regular army soldiers, who were executed on the spot.  That is a war crime.

Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:43:23 PM
Just curious LFU: You said 'when this thing started' you considered it a civil war.  At what point in the timeline did you consider this a civil war and now do you believe it is 'not' a civil war?


Oh, man, I couldn't really tell you what exactly changed my mind.  Even when it was clear Russian equipment was used it was still a question of whether Russian soldiers were on the ground (besides Crimea that is).  Hard to say they are not there when their dead bodies are being shipped back. 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Doll on January 25, 2015, 08:43:48 PM
 '
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:44:53 PM

Oh, man, I couldn't really tell you what exactly changed my mind.  Even when it was clear Russian equipment was used it was still a question whether Russian soldiers were on the ground (besides Crimea that is).  Hard to say they are not there when their dead bodies are being shipped back.


The very first "rebels" were paid mercenaries from Russia, lead by Muscovites.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Doll on January 25, 2015, 08:46:20 PM
/
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 25, 2015, 08:49:09 PM
I have proven it by posting the links, and their names, in the past.  You can search my posts if it interests you.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 08:50:19 PM
Call me now and we will talk 8)

Doll-- Taz was referring to calling his friend to see if she is ok-not calling you.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 08:56:17 PM

The very first "rebels" were paid mercenaries from Russia, lead by Muscovites.


Bo, did they ever figure out who was behind the sniper attacks in Kiev?  Was that another Moscow thing?
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 08:56:45 PM

From my understanding, Doll and Belvis believes this is a civil war.  I don't know if they believe Putin is helping the cause or not.


Still, I have not seen either of them say they were happy for the war nor have I seen them say they were pro-war.  That is the narrative you and many others are assigning to them simply because they believe it is a civil war.   I get assigned Pro-Russia simply because I won't say what people keep demanding me to say.  If I say don't trust western media, I am also then called Pro-Russian.

If you guys want some dialog, I suggest stopping these types of labels.  I don't think you really want discussion, though.  This seems to be more of a group of guys who just bitch and show links about the same thing over and over again.  I think some of the guys wishing the worst on all Russians are not any better than the people they condemn.


I hope your friend is safe.


Edited to add: It was my understanding that Ukranian rebels (yeah there really are some) were executing fellow Ukrainians.  Is that not true?  I'm wondering why you think it is only Russian soldiers doing this.

Moral equivalency



haha  Yeah, whatever fits their narrative will be singled out instead of taking the whole post in context.  That was one of my points.



I think we already went down that road.  I'm afraid we would only be repeating ourselves but then again that seems to be the case in most threads here.  ;)

How about yes, you approve or no you don't approve and if you don't approve what should be done and if you do approve, why?  Thx.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 08:59:59 PM
ll
Hey, when you learn how to give the links correctly I will probably answer

Doll - On purpose I broke the link so as to not too easily go to graphic content. I thought most people here now that URLs start http:// so easy to fix. Since you had a problem with it I fixed it just for you.  ;D

 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 09:04:18 PM
Тазик, ну ты хде? Can't wait for your call on my "cell or home phone"
(http://s17.rimg.info/ee2d2de788a7ad3a3522f877f3feddff.gif) (http://smayliki.ru/smilie-998523303.html)

Sorry Doll, if I had your phone I'd call but it would be a bit difficult at the moment. I am a quite a few thousand meters up in a plane and I don't really want to use my sat phone to give you a call. Internet is somewhat difficult as it is.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 09:06:55 PM

Bo, did they ever figure out who was behind the sniper attacks in Kiev?  Was that another Moscow thing?

Quote from: AC on Yesterday at 08:16:13 PM
Oh okay.  Apparently when somebody points out that you are making off-topic posts which have absolutely nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine, a member of the former Soviet Union, which is what this forum is about, and that you are obviously making them to try to deflect from what the Russians are doing in Ukraine, suddenly that person has "emotional problems with anger".

In other words you are guilty of exactly what I described, which is attempting to justify Russia's war of aggression and conquest in Ukraine, by posting more off-topic nonsense.  You obviously don't have the ability to dispute what I've written, so you try to besmirch the character of the messenger (myself).  Any more nonsense you would like to post about this?

Your worthless and irrational argument is called an argument of "moral equivalence".  Straight out of the pro-Russian propaganda book.  But of course it's a failure,

Quote JayH reply-AC--you have hit on exactly the designed strategy attempt that we see across every thread--the ongoing attempt to insult,bait,anger,denigrate etc etc is consistent-- and has been over a long period of time.
Why in earth would anyone persist in taking the 3% chance option on every topic? Feeble attempts to engage and then try and attribute comments and attitudes not being expressed is consistent tactic.
It leaves me seriously interested in the bona fides of quite a few of these people-and the motivation!!" end quote

The example of what he was accused of yesterday-- is there again--I reposted for all to see a typical tactic of all the Russian apologists--it brings their credibility into question on every issue.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 09:08:46 PM

I'd agree with those people. 


Birds of a feather flock together jone
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 09:12:32 PM
I don't blame Doll and Belvis to be honest.  Look at JayH's and LT goof ball posts.  Who wants to grouped in with guys that post nonsense all over this forum.  I'm attempted to fake what I believe just to distance myself from these guys.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 09:12:45 PM
Quote from: AC on Yesterday at 08:16:13 PM
Oh okay.  Apparently when somebody points out that you are making off-topic posts which have absolutely nothing to do with the situation in Ukraine, a member of the former Soviet Union, which is what this forum is about, and that you are obviously making them to try to deflect from what the Russians are doing in Ukraine, suddenly that person has "emotional problems with anger".

In other words you are guilty of exactly what I described, which is attempting to justify Russia's war of aggression and conquest in Ukraine, by posting more off-topic nonsense.  You obviously don't have the ability to dispute what I've written, so you try to besmirch the character of the messenger (myself).  Any more nonsense you would like to post about this?

Your worthless and irrational argument is called an argument of "moral equivalence".  Straight out of the pro-Russian propaganda book.  But of course it's a failure,

Quote JayH reply-AC--you have hit on exactly the designed strategy attempt that we see across every thread--the ongoing attempt to insult,bait,anger,denigrate etc etc is consistent-- and has been over a long period of time.
Why in earth would anyone persist in taking the 3% chance option on every topic? Feeble attempts to engage and then try and attribute comments and attitudes not being expressed is consistent tactic.
It leaves me seriously interested in the bona fides of quite a few of these people-and the motivation!!" end quote

The example of what he was accused of yesterday-- is there again--I reposted for all to see a typical tactic of all the Russian apologists--it brings their credibility into question on every issue.


What a garbled mess of a post.   While you are concerning yourself and moaning about other's credibility YOUR own has been compromised and rightfully so!   People remained entitled to state their viewpoints, whether you like it or not!  :D


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 09:15:32 PM
I don't blame Doll and Belvis to be honest.  Look at JayH's and LT goof ball posts.  Who wants to believe the same as someone who would post their usual nonsense all over this forum.


With their collective shrillness they do much harm to the cause they SAY they support...it is best for a person who is pro-Russian to permit them to continue their postings often at the expense of other similar persons with similar viewpoints. 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 25, 2015, 09:21:11 PM

With their collective shrillness they do much harm to the cause they SAY they support...it is best for a person who is pro-Russian to permit them to continue their postings often at the expense of other similar persons with similar viewpoints. 


Fathertime!


I hear you.  Unfortunately this board is now a news aggregate and most discussion is about how happy people are when Russians are killed or harmed because of sanctions. 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 09:21:30 PM
"Other inhabitants of Mariupol Nicholas fire collateral in the garage. He fell. Then rose. He sat in the car and drove out of the neighborhood. Only after driving a few miles, I realized that fractured bone in his leg. Full boot blood. But now everything is fine. Just from his sick bed he manages the process of glazing the windows in his apartment. Film, plywood and even tape now on the East array Mariupol repairing the flat almost every family. Collapsed apartment another resident of the city cares. Yesterday morning she begged her husband to find. Asked about his fate as doctors, neighbors and passers-by. Today she found him - in the list of victims. The day after the tragedy in organized resettlement in motels, schools and kindergartens. Volunteers in the neighborhood fired deployed paragraph aid. Here distribute sandwiches and poured tea. Everyone wishing to give blankets, socks and even underwear."
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/ukrayina/mariupol-ogovtuyetsya-obstriliv-gorodyani-remontuyut-oseli-a-40-poranenih-boryutsya-za-svoye-zhittya-405021.html

Civilians being killed and maimed is a clear cut atrocity-- where is any regret ever expressed by these pro-Russian apologists here?

Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 09:28:56 PM
Ukraine holds day of mourning for those killed in Mariupol rocket attack
Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/society/1035984-ukraine-holds-day-of-mourning-for-those-killed-in-mariupol-rocket-attack.html

Thirty people were killed and more than one hundred injured in the attacks, which hit the city shortly after 0900 and at around 1300 on Saturday. Officials from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said Grad and Uragan multiple rocket launcher systems were used in the strikes, which crater analysis indicated were launched from two areas held by Russian-backed militants.
Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/society/1035984-ukraine-holds-day-of-mourning-for-those-killed-in-mariupol-rocket-attack.html

The death toll is over 40 now.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 09:30:27 PM


Civilians being killed and maimed is a clear cut atrocity-- where is any regret ever expressed by these pro-Russian apologists here?
Where is the regret when young Russian men are killed by those pro US involvement?  Where is the regret when civilians may suffer in Russia?  Just hand-clapping (by certain pro-Ukrainian posters)   for that...you don't see the 'pro Russian's' clapping their hands like that so I guess they have a little more empathy!


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 25, 2015, 09:36:49 PM
Where is the regret when young Russian men are killed by those pro US involvement?  Where is the regret when civilians may suffer in Russia?  Just hand-clapping (by certain pro-Ukrainian posters)   for that...you don't see the 'pro Russian's' clapping their hands like that so I guess they have a little more empathy!


Fathertime!

How big an idiot are you!! Your post just makes it clear to everyone,( everyone with at least 1% of a brain) !!
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 25, 2015, 09:39:01 PM
Where is the regret when young Russian men are killed by those pro US involvement?

As there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine, the point is moot.  You can't kill people who aren't there - ask Putin.

Where is the regret when civilians may suffer in Russia?

What suffering?  I don't see any Russian cities being shelled, or having rockets launched at them.  As Doll and others have pointed out, there are no problems with ordinary life in Russia - no rising costs, no shortages of goods - so how can they suffer if nothing has changed?


Just hand-clapping (by certain pro-Ukrainian posters)   for that...you don't see the 'pro Russian's' clapping their hands like that so I guess they have a little more empathy!

Utter bollocks.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 09:42:17 PM
The sanctions were designed to PUNISH Russia. That means they did something WRONG. So I am not going to feel very sorry for someone when they are punished for doing something wrong as long as the punishment fits the crime so to speak.

Do I think the limited sanctions that are in place are adequate punishment for Russia in light of their continued invasion of Ukraine? Hell no! The price for Putin has to be so high that he will stop the invasion of Ukraine, stop supplying the so called "rebels" and cease all actions to destabilize Ukraine in any way, shape or form.

At the same time, I don't want the US involved any more than to support Ukraine in their defense against Russia and give them the loans they need to put their country back in shape. It is the least we can do as we promised to protect them in the Budapest Memorandum. We have a moral responsibility to help Ukraine now.

Do I want to see Russian soldiers die needlessly, no but Putin is sending them to die needlessly. For the record, I have Russian friends who are either current or former military. For the most part, the older ones with experience, don't want to be there. The younger ones are more affected by the propaganda. I realize now that the only way Putin will stop invading Ukraine is if there are massive casualties amongst his soldiers. Russia started and fomented this unrest. As a result, they should be the ones who are punished and pay the price.

On one glimmer of hope, a friend of mine in Siberia wrote me. She finally is starting to get it. The light bulb finally went off in her head so to speak. She has started reading the links I have sent her and she sees the disconnect between what is reality and the mush she is being fed. She was in Kiev last year and never felt threatened by any Ukrainians any where she went which is the opposite of the spin Russia was putting on it.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 09:45:38 PM
Privet Kukla - I fixed the link for you. I anxiously await your response to the execution of Ukrainian soldiers that were prisoners of war by Russian soldiers that was clearly in violation of the rules of war.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 09:47:53 PM
How big an idiot are you!! Your post just makes it clear to everyone,( everyone with at least 1% of a brain) !!


tsk tsk tsk...name calling as usual!   It appears that much of the planet must have 1% of a brain then, you don't qualify.   :D


Fathertime!
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 09:50:30 PM
As there are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine, the point is moot.  You can't kill people who aren't there - ask Putin.

What suffering?  I don't see any Russian cities being shelled, or having rockets launched at them.  As Doll and others have pointed out, there are no problems with ordinary life in Russia - no rising costs, no shortages of goods - so how can they suffer if nothing has changed?


Utter bollocks.


What are you griping about now?  It seems clear that Russians, and pro-Russian's in Ukraine are being killed and suffering...But that is a good thing according to some!   :rolleyes:


Fathertime!
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 09:59:39 PM
I think we can all agree FT that nobody wants to see any loss of life. At least in the case of proof of Russian soldiers needlessly dying in UKraine, then at least the purpose it might serve (if they die in vast enough quantities to not just be on holiday), is provide ireffutable proof to the world that Putin is clearly lying and must be stopped.

I don't want to see another person die in this war. It could all stop in a week if Putin would just remove his troops from Ukraine and stop supplying the terrorist that remain. Should he continue to invade Ukraine, supply the terrorists with weapons, then I am all in favor of giving Ukraine everything they need to defend themselves. If that doesn't stop Putin then a large, international force parked in Ukraine and ready to attack, would stop him.


Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 10:04:26 PM
I don't blame Doll and Belvis to be honest.  Look at JayH's and LT goof ball posts.  Who wants to grouped in with guys that post nonsense all over this forum.  I'm attempted to fake what I believe just to distance myself from these guys.

Ah yes, here it begins . . .
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 10:08:27 PM
Where is the regret when young Russian men are killed by those pro US involvement?  Where is the regret when civilians may suffer in Russia?  Just hand-clapping (by certain pro-Ukrainian posters)   for that...you don't see the 'pro Russian's' clapping their hands like that so I guess they have a little more empathy!


Fathertime!

Lol

Show me the bodies killed by MREs
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 10:13:34 PM
I think we can all agree FT that nobody wants to see any loss of life.

Yeah, Doll, Belvis, lFU, and FT want to see dead Ukrainians.  Steamer is indifferent to evil. Jone doesn't want to get involved.  But hey, if that's agreement.  I agree.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 10:14:36 PM
I think we can all agree FT that nobody wants to see any loss of life. At least in the case of proof of Russian soldiers needlessly dying in UKraine, then at least the purpose it might serve (if they die in vast enough quantities to not just be on holiday), is provide ireffutable proof to the world that Putin is clearly lying and must be stopped.

I don't want to see another person die in this war. It could all stop in a week if Putin would just remove his troops from Ukraine and stop supplying the terrorist that remain. Should he continue to invade Ukraine, supply the terrorists with weapons, then I am all in favor of giving Ukraine everything they need to defend themselves. If that doesn't stop Putin then a large, international force parked in Ukraine and ready to attack, would stop him.


Well Taz there are probably a few different ways this crisis could end.  I think Russia suddenly picking up and leaving is highly unlikely, even there was a larger counter-force in place.  That may be part of the reasoning why western nations have decided not to bother sending any forces in.  Keeping in mind there are also ways this crisis could escalate.  The world continues to spin despite there being battles all over the globe on a daily basis, Ukraine being one of many...


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 10:15:33 PM
Yeah, Doll, Belvis, lFU, and FT want to see dead Ukrainians.  Steamer is indifferent to evil. Jone doesn't want to get involved.  But hey, if that's agreement.  I agree.


Don't forget that LT wants to see EVERYBODY dead!   :D


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 25, 2015, 10:19:25 PM
Putin will only stop by enough force is shown. That has been his MO all along. While there are issues all over the world, that doesn't mean that this one doesn't matter or is any less important. This actually has the ability to blow up into a major conflict.

I am strongly against ISIS (ISIL, Daesh or whatever the hell to call them) as well as Boko Haram. If the world unites against the evil, it can be stopped. Putin is part of that evil wave in the world that needs to be stopped. The sooner the better. Better to eradicate a cancer in its early stages before it is at stage 4 and everything is lost...
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 10:23:27 PM

Don't forget that LT wants to see EVERYBODY dead!   :D


Fathertime!

Lol

The Novorossiya TOS clause
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 10:24:45 PM

Well Taz there are probably a few different ways this crisis could end.  I think Russia suddenly picking up and leaving is highly unlikely, even there was a larger counter-force in place.  That may be part of the reasoning why western nations have decided not to bother sending any forces in.  Keeping in mind there are also ways this crisis could escalate.  The world continues to spin despite there being battles all over the globe on a daily basis, Ukraine being one of many...


Fathertime!

Hey just used Putin's nukes to threaten you Taz.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: bagalia on January 25, 2015, 10:27:57 PM
Please

I think there may be a member or two who do not know what a partisan is so I will give the definition.
"One exhibiting blind, prejudiced, and unreasoning allegiance. A member of a body of detached light troops making forays and harassing an enemy. A member of a guerrilla band operating within enemy lines."

Partisans do not often or cannot take prisoners. They also like to terrorize the enemy. Not much different from Vlad the Impaler who was fairly successful at turning back the enemy.

http://www.facebook.com/alexandr.gladky.9

I posted this facebook site here a few days ago. Alexander Gladky is a fairly well known Ukrainian partisan. My Facebook has a translation for all his posts but I don't know if that is usual. If you scroll down a few pages you will see the Russian General he executed. I have seen no confirmation though this story is starting to spread in social media. A partial translation below but you need to sign into facebook to see the pictures after the execution.
------------------------------------
"For Volnovakha! For the defunct 14ti year old Ukrainian!

The Donetsk group of partisans "shadows" by organizing an ambush of policemen on patrol on the outskirts of the city, I did not expect such luck. Having captured three policemen, two policemen were simply "orcs" and were shot on the spot, the third is: Peter G. Pavlov. Major General of the RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES. Operational management of the armed forces.

For his life and freedom he offered "shadows" one million dollars.
The answer "the shadow"-"To sraki your dollars. Homeland is not for sale! "

Inglorious sdohnuvšij dog of the Kremlin's * La after a brief interrogation at the photo below."
---------------------------------------

Now there are some who say there is no such general. If there is a doubt then you can also find this execution acknowledge on Strelkovs VK page. http://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_40568

There were two other executions (before and after) on the site last week but cannot find then now.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 10:28:54 PM
Hey just used Putin's nukes to threaten you Taz.


You are not making sense again.  You and McCain can participate in all the wars you want (in your own minds)


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 25, 2015, 10:41:02 PM
Putin will only stop by enough force is shown. That has been his MO all along. While there are issues all over the world, that doesn't mean that this one doesn't matter or is any less important. This actually has the ability to blow up into a major conflict.

I am strongly against ISIS (ISIL, Daesh or whatever the hell to call them) as well as Boko Haram. If the world unites against the evil, it can be stopped. Putin is part of that evil wave in the world that needs to be stopped. The sooner the better. Better to eradicate a cancer in its early stages before it is at stage 4 and everything is lost...


Yes this can blow up into a major conflict, and we don't need to make that happen.  Just like many other conflicts, it has its boundaries, and I remained convinced that our participation will spread it...Sometimes things don't turn out the way we think they should and sometimes that has to be accepted, when the other options are even worse.  There isn't very much support from western nations to confront Russia militarily in Ukraine and there is a reason for that.  Although many will disagree, Ukraine itself appears divided on that issue.   This is neither the time or the place...Of course this is all my opinion, and others are obviously free to disagree. 


Fathertime!
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 11:53:24 PM
If that is all you got, I would say that slitting the throat of a man orchestrating mayhem and killing unarmed prisoners entrusted in your care is a difference worth noting.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 25, 2015, 11:55:32 PM

Yes this can blow up into a major conflict, and we don't need to make that happen.  Just like many other conflicts, it has its boundaries, and I remained convinced that our participation will spread it...Sometimes things don't turn out the way we think they should and sometimes that has to be accepted, when the other options are even worse.  There isn't very much support from western nations to confront Russia militarily in Ukraine and there is a reason for that.  Although many will disagree, Ukraine itself appears divided on that issue.   This is neither the time or the place...Of course this is all my opinion, and others are obviously free to disagree. 


Fathertime!

How do you suggest we get your guy to stop?
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 26, 2015, 12:04:11 AM
http://www.facebook.com/alexandr.gladky.9 (http://www.facebook.com/alexandr.gladky.9)

I posted this facebook site here a few days ago. Alexander Gladky is a fairly well known Ukrainian partisan. My Facebook has a translation for all his posts but I don't know if that is usual. If you scroll down a few pages you will see the Russian General he executed. I have seen no confirmation though this story is starting to spread in social media. A partial translation below but you need to sign into facebook to see the pictures after the execution.
------------------------------------
"For Volnovakha! For the defunct 14ti year old Ukrainian!

The Donetsk group of partisans "shadows" by organizing an ambush of policemen on patrol on the outskirts of the city, I did not expect such luck. Having captured three policemen, two policemen were simply "orcs" and were shot on the spot, the third is: Peter G. Pavlov. Major General of the RUSSIAN ARMED FORCES. Operational management of the armed forces.

For his life and freedom he offered "shadows" one million dollars.
The answer "the shadow"-"To sraki your dollars. Homeland is not for sale! "

Inglorious sdohnuvšij dog of the Kremlin's * La after a brief interrogation at the photo below."
---------------------------------------

Now there are some who say there is no such general. If there is a doubt then you can also find this execution acknowledge on Strelkovs VK page. http://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_40568 (http://vk.com/strelkov_info?w=wall-57424472_40568)

There were two other executions (before and after) on the site last week but cannot find then now.

Just for the record, I don't condone any inhumane treatment of prisoners of war or for soldiers wearing regular uniforms. I can't say I condone inhumane treatment for people that are dressed as civilians but attacking but they are not afforded the same protection and in general they put other civilians at risk.

Same goes for any uniformed or non-uniformed combatants firing weapons from a civilian area. They have put civilians in jeopardy. Most armies will try and avoid firing on heavily populated areas whereas Russia doesn't seem to give a damn, just like the Palestinians.

I too read the comments that eerily prefaced the execution of these prisoner when the Russians said they didn't need to take any more prisoners, I knew what that meant. There are quite a few offenses that rise to the level of war crimes. These people need to be hunted down and brought to justice even if they hide deep inside Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 26, 2015, 01:48:29 AM
He may be giving lip service to Poroshenko and may have genuine feelings. 



Stalin and Hilter had feelings for each other. Later Stalin, FDR, and Churchill got cozy together. When it comes to survival, Luka will make the right choice too.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 26, 2015, 02:46:52 AM
Quote
Where is the regret when young Russian men are killed by those pro US involvement?

I've missed that, but hey, I only live and work in the region. Perhaps you'd be so kind as point it out.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Chelseaboy on January 26, 2015, 03:10:14 AM
Fathertime,

                 Can you supply evidence of young Russian men being killed by pro US involvement ?

Photos or videos of the US troops killing Russians in Ukraine would be useful,or maybe just photos or videos of lethal US weapons/military equipment being used by Ukrainians to kill those invading young Russian men you're so worried for.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 03:11:22 AM
Where is that US involvement?  Show me
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 26, 2015, 03:47:40 AM
Yet on the other hand there is ample evidence of Russian Army involvement in the SE of Ukraine that is ignored by the pro Russian supporters.

http://en.informnapalm.org/category/russian-military-assessment/

http://www.bellingcat.com/category/news/uk-and-europe/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on January 26, 2015, 04:08:12 AM
One fake generated a few pages of discussions. OK, I'll give some explanatory notes on video Taz posted.
Full video here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84503534&v=XksDGeAbJ7g&x-yt-ts=1421914688

Lugansk militia has dislodged 20th battalion of Ukrainian army out of Krasny Partisan village. Then collected all captured, wounded and dead in one place. Then filmed them to identify victims, because Ukrainian army is notorious in missing its soldiers. BTW, militia is doing good work filming captives. It's guarantee they will be alive.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 26, 2015, 04:51:24 AM
And yet there seems to be bullet holes right behind the bodies in wall right at the chest height area.

 It still looks like cold blooded murder!
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Steamer on January 26, 2015, 07:06:55 AM
How do you suggest we get your guy to stop?


You're not going to. In fact if Russia wants to have a land connection to Crimea I believe that we'll see operations along the route pick up quickly.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2015, 07:36:28 AM
Fathertime,

                 Can you supply evidence of young Russian men being killed by pro US involvement ?

Photos or videos of the US troops killing Russians in Ukraine would be useful,or maybe just photos or videos of lethal US weapons/military equipment being used by Ukrainians to kill those invading young Russian men you're so worried for.
I've missed that, but hey, I only live and work in the region. Perhaps you'd be so kind as point it out.


I'm afraid my post didn't come out the way I intended.  I was not attempting to state that the US was directly involved in killing people...as I'm happy we have stayed out of the battle (insofar as I can tell).  My intent was to state that Pro Western forces and their supporters have also likely committed barbarous acts, yet (some) posters here applaud (or ignore) those acts. 


Thank you for the opportunity to clarify my post.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 09:01:03 AM

You're not going to. In fact if Russia wants to have a land connection to Crimea I believe that we'll see operations along the route pick up quickly.

That's not what I asked.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Steamer on January 26, 2015, 11:58:35 AM
That's not what I asked.


So what?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 26, 2015, 12:13:48 PM
Propaganda 101. This is how you prepare your civilian and military populations for a war with NATO...you tell them it's NATO they've been fighting all along...

Putin: Ukraine army is NATO legion aimed at restraining Russia

..."The Ukrainian army is essentially a ‘NATO legion’ which doesn’t pursue the national interests of Ukraine, but persists to restrict Russia, President Vladimir Putin says.

“We often say: Ukrainian Army, Ukrainian Army. But who is really fighting there? There are, indeed, partially official units of armed forces, but largely there are the so-called ‘volunteer nationalist battalions’,” said Putin.

He added that the intention of Ukrainian troops is connected with “achieving the geopolitical goals of restraining Russia.” Putin was addressing students in the city of St. Petersburg.

According to Putin, the Ukrainian army “is not an army, but a foreign legion, in this case a foreign NATO legion, which, of course, doesn’t pursue the national interests of Ukraine.”

Kiev has been reluctant to find political solutions to the crisis in eastern Ukraine and only used the ceasefire to regroup its forces, the president stressed.

“Unfortunately official Kiev authorities refuse to follow the path of a peaceful solution. They don’t want to resolve [the crisis] using political tools,” Putin said, adding that first Kiev authorities had first used law enforcement, then security services and then the army in the region.

“It is essentially a civil war [in Ukraine]. In my view, many in Ukraine already understand this,” Putin added.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg has reacted to President Putin’s words, calling his statement “nonsense.”

"The statement that there is a NATO legion in Ukraine is nonsense. There is no NATO legion," Stoltenberg told reporters."...

http://rt.com/news/226319-putin-nato-russia-ukraine/

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 26, 2015, 01:23:39 PM
Crimean News

CNBC today showed a small clip of the Russian "special police" closing a TV station named ATR in Crimea.  CNBC says ATR was the only remaining station "critical of the Russian-backed Crimean government."

The special police arrived en masse, some wearing a mask.  The clip showed a pretty reporter with microphone in her hand conducting an interview,  the special service barged in, spoke a few words to the reporter, the reporter rolled her eyes, and a man in black leather jacket  blocked the camera.

I look forward to Doll's and Belvis's explanation.  Maybe ATR did not pay its gas bill.  Maybe the police were stopping propaganda by ATR. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 26, 2015, 01:39:20 PM
The group raiding and closing the station is referred to as "Russian security forces."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/26/crimean-tv-station-raid-russia_n_6546008.html

It seems ATR targeted the Tatar community, as its reporters are Tatar.  The Tatars have been getting a bad deal for a century. 



OSCE's position:

http://www.osce.org/fom/136221


10 hours of ATR broadcasting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O93xWaPN6U
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 26, 2015, 01:50:11 PM
Crimean News

CNBC today showed a small clip of the Russian "special police" closing a TV station named ATR in Crimea.  CNBC says ATR was the only remaining station "critical of the Russian-backed Crimean government."

The special police arrived en masse, some wearing a mask.  The clip showed a pretty reporter with microphone in her hand conducting an interview,  the special service barged in, spoke a few words to the reporter, the reporter rolled her eyes, and a man in black leather jacket  blocked the camera.

I look forward to Doll's and Belvis's explanation.  Maybe ATR did not pay its gas bill.  Maybe the police were stopping propaganda by ATR.

Here is the real reason.  They are trying to eliminate all evidence that there were any objections or protests against the referendum (the one which Girkin admits the majority did not want, and was conducted at gunpoint).

excerpt
"In an emotional video posted on YouTube, deputy director Liliya Budzhurova said that armed men from Russia's Investigative Committee and counterterrorism officials appeared at the station early Monday. Budzhurova said they had seized equipment, including servers of archival footage showing the February 2014 demonstration against the Russian takeover, effectively shutting down the channel's broadcast operations.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on January 26, 2015, 02:08:56 PM
Yep, them Russians sure are nice people.    :P
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 26, 2015, 05:13:55 PM

What are you griping about now?  It seems clear that Russians, and pro-Russian's in Ukraine are being killed and suffering...But that is a good thing according to some!   :rolleyes:

Since when is it good?

Do you need to be reminded how many civilians have died in the Donbas conflict?  It's now believed to be over 5,000, and the blame for that can be squarely placed on the Russians for fomenting the tensions to start with, then exploiting the anti-Ukrainian feeling of a minority of people by establishing militias and so-called separatist republics.  The people who live there are Ukrainian citizens - some (even many) of them may well be pro-Russian, but THEY ARE NOT RUSSIANS.  If the Russians withdrew all their forces this war would be over in a matter of days.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2015, 05:43:19 PM
Since when is it good?

Do you need to be reminded how many civilians have died in the Donbas conflict?  It's now believed to be over 5,000, and the blame for that can be squarely placed on the Russians for fomenting the tensions to start with, then exploiting the anti-Ukrainian feeling of a minority of people by establishing militias and so-called separatist republics.  The people who live there are Ukrainian citizens - some (even many) of them may well be pro-Russian, but THEY ARE NOT RUSSIANS.  If the Russians withdrew all their forces this war would be over in a matter of days.


Since when was it good?  Don't ask me, ask the clappers/delighters here about that one.


I don't agree with putting this entirely in Russia's lap...but that is well known already. 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Anotherkiwi on January 26, 2015, 06:00:36 PM
I don't agree with putting this entirely in Russia's lap...but that is well known already. 

Why not?  If the Russians hadn't invaded Crimea to start with, none of what is happening in eastern Ukraine would have occurred, and several thousand people would not now be dead.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Taz on January 26, 2015, 06:00:52 PM

Since when was it good?  Don't ask me, ask the clappers/delighters here about that one.

I don't agree with putting this entirely in Russia's lap...but that is well known already. 

Fathertime!

So who started the conflict then FT? Who fired the first shot so to speak? Whose troops were in Crimea?
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2015, 06:15:33 PM
Why not?  If the Russians hadn't invaded Crimea to start with, none of what is happening in eastern Ukraine would have occurred, and several thousand people would not now be dead.




So who started the conflict then FT? Who fired the first shot so to speak? Whose troops were in Crimea?


In my opinion it seems clear that Russia has had involvement in all of this.  Western led worldwide  military events of a decade or more have helped lead up to this latest crisis....as it is only one of many.  At least that is the way I think Russia sees it. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 26, 2015, 06:57:15 PM
Propaganda 101. This is how you prepare your civilian and military populations for a war with NATO...you tell them it's NATO they've been fighting all along...

Putin: Ukraine army is NATO legion aimed at restraining Russia

..."The Ukrainian army is essentially a ‘NATO legion’ which doesn’t pursue the national interests of Ukraine, but persists to restrict Russia, President Vladimir Putin says.



So it's NATO that's been killing ethnic Russians in East Ukraine all along? Putin planting a seed in his people's minds.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 26, 2015, 07:13:39 PM
Budzhurova said they had seized equipment, including servers of archival footage showing the February 2014 demonstration against the Russian takeover, effectively shutting down the channel's broadcast operations.



An American and a Russian got into a discussion about the freedoms they enjoy at home. The American said "I can walk into President Obama's office, slam my fist on his desk and say 'Mr. President, I don't like the way you're running this country!!!'" The Russian said "I can do the same thing in my country." The stunned American replied "Really?" The Russian said "Yes, I can walk into President Putin's office, slam my fist on his desk and say 'Mr. President, I don't like the way President Obama is running his country!!!'"
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: Boethius on January 26, 2015, 07:31:22 PM

Bo, did they ever figure out who was behind the sniper attacks in Kiev?  Was that another Moscow thing?


There are claims that Berkut officers, acting under the direction of a leader, were responsible, and arrest warrants have been issued on that basis.  All responsible fled Ukraine.  There is no direct link to Yanukovych, AFAIK.


No, Russia was not responsible for this.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 26, 2015, 07:43:24 PM
That's a dubious claim (that Russia is not responsible for Berkut shooting protestors) when we know that the SBU (Ukrainian Intelligence Services) was infiltrated by the FSB (Russian Intelligence Services) in Kyiv.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: JayH on January 26, 2015, 07:58:19 PM

There are claims that Berkut officers, acting under the direction of a leader, were responsible, and arrest warrants have been issued on that basis.  All responsible fled Ukraine.  There is no direct link to Yanukovych, AFAIK.


No, Russia was not responsible for this.

Mrs B--  time will prove the link is there--it was amongst the "evidence" that all the fleeing scum attempted to destroy-or hide. Berkut leaders now in Moscow-hardly a surprise.
Anyone not seeing the high probability of the command chain is not accepting the highly likely reality.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 08:14:46 PM

So what?

lol
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 08:21:31 PM
FT will ignore your direct demands to morally defend Putin but he will change the subject, morally equivocate, insult, project and mislead.  He is a moral degenerate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2015, 08:26:09 PM
FT will ignore your direct demands to morally defend Putin but he will change the subject, morally equivocate, insult, project and mislead.  He is a moral degenerate.


I'm not afraid to discuss the issues and give my viewpoint!  It is YOU that have the issues, but I'm ok with you putting them on display with your 'superior' morality.   :D   


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 08:28:18 PM

I'm not afraid to discuss the issues and give my viewpoint!  It is YOU that have the issues, but I'm ok with you putting them on display with your 'superior' morality.   :D   


Fathertime!

So defend Putin on moral grounds.  Why is it that he can commit atrocity? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2015, 08:33:19 PM
So defend Putin on moral grounds.  Why is it that he can commit atrocity?


I don't need to defend anybody on moral grounds....i've found numerous partners here on the website that I disagree with, but gladly discuss issues with....Due to your own actions/statements, you are just here to toy with for now.  :)


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 26, 2015, 08:53:26 PM

There are claims that Berkut officers, acting under the direction of a leader, were responsible, and arrest warrants have been issued on that basis.  All responsible fled Ukraine.  There is no direct link to Yanukovych, AFAIK.


No, Russia was not responsible for this.


Thanks Bo, I remember reading Yanukovych was cleared but never heard much about what happened later.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 09:29:16 PM

I don't need to defend anybody on moral grounds....i've found numerous partners here on the website that I disagree with, but gladly discuss issues with....Due to your own actions/statements, you are just here to toy with for now.  :)


Fathertime!

Again.  You can not defend your patron but instead you make ad hominem attacks.  Tell us again who the US is involved, that Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine,  that these atrocities are justified. . . what is your win win?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 26, 2015, 09:42:24 PM
Again.  You can not defend your patron but instead you make ad hominem attacks.  Tell us again who the US is involved, that Russia hasn't invaded Ukraine,  that these atrocities are justified. . . what is your win win?


More senseless ramblings.  Continue on please.   :D


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on January 26, 2015, 10:58:11 PM

More senseless ramblings.  Continue on please.   :D


Fathertime!

Distract. Distract while Ukraine buries more innocents.  He has no shame folks.
Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: AkMike on January 27, 2015, 01:30:09 AM

Thanks Bo, I remember reading Yanukovych was cleared but never heard much about what happened later.

 Where di you see that? Any links for it? I haven't seen it anywhere but maybe I missed it.  :wallbash:

 Since he was the CIC he's still on the hook for the murders as far as I can see.

Title: Re: Is this what you Russian supporters are really like?
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 27, 2015, 04:02:17 AM
Where di you see that? Any links for it? I haven't seen it anywhere but maybe I missed it.  :wallbash:


Yeah, it doesn't surprise me you can't find much.  Ton of stuff out there claiming he ordered the sniper attacks but not much else countering that.


I don't remember where I read it to be honest.  It was some time ago and I don't have time to look up links.  Most of the western media didn't cover this which also isn't surprising.


There was a recorded call from Estonia Foreign Minister talking about how the bullets that killed both cops and citizens were the same.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZEgJ0oo3OA8&has_verified=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8&oref=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DZEgJ0oo3OA8&has_verified=1)

As far as I know no evidence has been presented besides accusations.

Quote
Since he was the CIC he's still on the hook for the murders as far as I can see.


Do you believe all leaders are responsible for atrocities committed under their leadership or is this specific to Yanukovych?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on January 27, 2015, 04:14:20 AM
(http://glav.su/files/messages/2015/01/23/2855929_b3aa703ecf89b986d8b8af706c505c2a.png)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 27, 2015, 08:44:20 AM
Sorry, I can't read Russian.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 27, 2015, 08:45:58 AM
Or should I say Я не понимаете по-русски?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 27, 2015, 08:55:43 AM
Or... Better yet!

YA ne budu govorit' po-russki   :clapping: :clapping:
Title: New York Times OP/ED Demonstrates a new awareness in the US
Post by: jone on January 27, 2015, 09:44:13 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/27/opinion/bernard-henri-levi-george-soros-save-the-new-ukraine.html?ref=opinion&_r=1

The above referenced article, from the voice box of American liberalism, seems to demonstrate an awareness of the stakes involved in keeping Ukraine as a going entity as opposed to the destabilized and fractioned country that Putin is pursuing.

Here are the two paragraphs that sum up the piece:

It is not only the future of Ukraine that’s at stake, but that of the European Union itself. The loss of Ukraine would be an enormous blow; it would empower a Russian alternative to the European Union based on the rule of force rather than the rule of law. But if Europe delivered the financial assistance that Ukraine needs, Mr. Putin would eventually be forced to abandon his aggression. At the moment, he can argue that Russia’s economic troubles are caused by Western hostility, and the Russian public finds his argument convincing.

If, however, Europe is generous with its financial assistance, a stable and prosperous Ukraine will provide an example that makes clear that the blame for Russia’s financial troubles lies with Mr. Putin. The Russian public might then force him to emulate the new Ukraine. Europe’s reward would be a new Russia that has turned from a potent strategic threat into a potential strategic partner. Those are the stakes.
Title: Re: New York Times OP/ED Demonstrates a new awareness in the US
Post by: Muzh on January 27, 2015, 10:04:12 AM
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/27/opinion/bernard-henri-levi-george-soros-save-the-new-ukraine.html?ref=opinion&_r=1 (http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/27/opinion/bernard-henri-levi-george-soros-save-the-new-ukraine.html?ref=opinion&_r=1)

The above referenced article, from the voice box of American liberalism, seems to demonstrate an awareness of the stakes involved in keeping Ukraine as a going entity as opposed to the destabilized and fractioned country that Putin is pursuing.

Here are the two paragraphs that sum up the piece:

It is not only the future of Ukraine that’s at stake, but that of the European Union itself. The loss of Ukraine would be an enormous blow; it would empower a Russian alternative to the European Union based on the rule of force rather than the rule of law. But if Europe delivered the financial assistance that Ukraine needs, Mr. Putin would eventually be forced to abandon his aggression. At the moment, he can argue that Russia’s economic troubles are caused by Western hostility, and the Russian public finds his argument convincing.

If, however, Europe is generous with its financial assistance, a stable and prosperous Ukraine will provide an example that makes clear that the blame for Russia’s financial troubles lies with Mr. Putin. The Russian public might then force him to emulate the new Ukraine. Europe’s reward would be a new Russia that has turned from a potent strategic threat into a potential strategic partner. Those are the stakes.


LMFAO


It seems to me you are washing your mouth with soap right now after saying such heresy.


 :ROFL:


 :applaud:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 27, 2015, 10:10:21 AM
I just about spit out my morning coffee laughing at your response, Muzh.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 27, 2015, 10:31:24 AM
Laughter, best medicine in the world.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 27, 2015, 11:50:23 AM
We get rid of one Hugo Chavez and what happens? Another Chavez wannabe crawls out of the sewer somewhere else on the planet...

Tough EU Statement on Russia Didn’t Have Greek Consent, Officials Say

..."Greek Official Says Greece Will Issue Statement Later Tuesday

A toughly worded statement on Russia issued Tuesday by European Union heads of governments didn't have the consent of Greece’s new Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, according to two Greek officials.

“The statement does not have Greece’s consent,” a government official said. The official added that the Greek government will put out a statement later saying the European Council, the body which issued the statement, didn't follow the correct procedure to win Athens’ consent.

In the past, Mr. Tsipras, who took office Monday afternoon, has been sharply critical of EU sanctions against Russia.

In Tuesday’s statement, EU leaders asked the bloc’s foreign ministers to consider further sanctions against Russia as a response to the latest violence in eastern Ukraine, saying Moscow held “responsibility” for the rebels’ actions.

The statement condemned the killing of civilians during “the indiscriminate shelling” of Mariupol on Jan. 24.

“We note evidence of continued and growing support given to the separatists by Russia, which underlines Russia’s responsibility. We urge Russia to condemn the separatists’ actions and to implement the Minsk agreements,” the leaders said in Tuesday’s statement.

There was no immediate comment from a spokesman at the European Council."...

http://www.wsj.com/articles/eu-call-for-more-russia-sanctions-didnt-have-greek-consent-1422363607

You gotta wonder where this radical leftist clown who now runs the country considered to be the trailer park trash of the European Union found the time to embarrass himself with this statement considering his full time occupation is devising a scheme to renege on Greece's legal commitment to repaying the EU bailout program.

...Does not have Greece’s consent, indeed.  :rolleyes:

Brass




Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 27, 2015, 01:39:53 PM
Sometimes the level of propaganda on Russian social media is downright nauseating. Like this notice yesterday on vKontake.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/vk-graham.png)

Welcome to the world of news, facts, and culture is a group that uses photos of facts about Russia that are often interesting, in order to carry their anti-West and anti-American rants.

Truth: Graham is a liar, masquerading as a journalist.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 27, 2015, 01:45:50 PM
Sometimes the level of propaganda on Russian social media is downright nauseating. Like this notice yesterday on vKontake.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/vk-graham.png)

Welcome to the world of news, facts, and culture is a group that uses photos of facts about Russia that are often interesting, in order to carry their anti-West and anti-American rants.

Truth: Graham is a liar, masquerading as a journalist.

Yep. That's kinda the answer I was looking for here, Mendy   ;)  ...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18749.msg389449#msg389449

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 27, 2015, 02:06:08 PM
Some of these are quite funny. More recently stories have been reported on Russian social media that some restaurants are charging customers a surcharge for devaluation of the Ruble.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/ruble-depreciation-a.jpg)

It did not take long for Russian news sites to enter the fray, proclaiming that the checks were fakes. Photoshopped, they claim. Besides, the owner of the cafe claimed that the checks were bogus. Okay, that is certainly possible, but why would faithful Russian citizens who love and approve of their government do such a thing?

Then checks from other customers began to surface. This has led the owner to change his story: now the blame has been shifted to a disgruntled former (and unidentified) employee.

On the surface one cannot blame an owner from protecting his business by making a legitimate profit, and the devaluation of the ruble does negatively impact the bottom line. The real issue here is the potential wrath a business owner faces when appearing to point out the country's problems.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 27, 2015, 02:19:34 PM
The latest.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZB3PiKhe41c
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on January 27, 2015, 02:29:58 PM
Mendy, Have you seen this yet?

"Investigations of grocery stores across Russia that were ordered by the prosecutor general have revealed unjustified price increases following a ban on imported foods adopted in response to western sanctions.

Prosecutors in the Samara region found that between August and December 2014, the price of cabbage, cucumbers and peppers increased by 353%, 544% and 654%, respectively, the newspaper RBC Daily reported. The Russian staple buckwheat, which is often used as a kind of social barometer as consumers tend to stockpile it in anticipation of hard times, rose by 276%.

The upward trend has continued this month, with prices for tomatoes, carrots and grapes in the region increasing by 26%, 58% and 85% in the first three weeks of January.

Prices began to rise across Russia following a ban on most food imports from the EU, US, Australia, Canada and Norway, which president Vladimir Putin ordered in August in response to western sanctions over Russia?s role in the Ukraine crisis. In big cities like Moscow, up to three-quarters of food was estimated to be imported.

Sanctions and a fall in worldwide oil prices caused the rouble to lose about half its value in 2014, sending inflation soaring to 11.4% in December and further exacerbating customers? pain at the grocery store checkout. "



http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/27/russian-grocery-stores-inflate-prices-after-import-ban
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 27, 2015, 03:02:51 PM
Yes, I have.

Each week PM Medvedev visits a grocery store whether at home or during his travels. To be sure, it is a media photo opportunity to assure ordinary Russians that the top brass is on the job. Almost every week it seems that he does find violations. That speaks volumes about the condition of the economy--and the system.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 27, 2015, 03:10:53 PM
Almost every week it seems that he does find violations. That speaks volumes about the condition of the economy--and the system.


I would blame the system more than the economy on skyrocketing prices. Even the article stated retailers are taking advantage of the situation. Many in the FSU have experienced this greedy system long before the sanctions started. Greed doesn't stop at the government level. But what is the solution? Have the State come in and control prices? State controlled food. A good thing?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on January 27, 2015, 03:56:10 PM

I would blame the system more than the economy on skyrocketing prices. Even the article stated retailers are taking advantage of the situation. Many in the FSU have experienced this greedy system long before the sanctions started. Greed doesn't stop at the government level. But what is the solution? Have the State come in and control prices? State controlled food. A good thing?

It's not taking advantage rather than survival in an economy with a failing currency. Everything he buys will cost him more so he has to charge more. State price control is insurance that no one but the state can remain in business so, it's the system
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 27, 2015, 04:13:39 PM
Victoria "F the EU" Nuland.  Hilarious.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 27, 2015, 05:21:18 PM
If the Obummer Administration would have had any cajones, Nuland would have been fired the moment that conversation was made public.  And the Ambassador.

To simply wash over it is stupid, stupid, stupid. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 27, 2015, 07:14:11 PM
If the Obummer Administration would have had any cajones, Nuland would have been fired the moment that conversation was made public.  And the Ambassador.

To simply wash over it is stupid, stupid, stupid.
 

Does not make her views wrong on Russia now--

"America’s top diplomat for Europe denounced Russian state-media coverage of the Ukraine crisis on Tuesday and belittled the Kremlin’s propaganda efforts in the United States as fallacious and ineffective.

“All you have to do is look at RT’s tiny, tiny audience in the United States to understand what happens when you broadcast untruths in a media space that is full of dynamic, truthful opinion,” said Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, referring to the Kremlin-backed global media company. “State-owned Russian media spews lies about who’s responsible for the violence [in Ukraine].”
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 28, 2015, 07:47:24 AM
I found this link which appears to present a Russian perspective in a decent enough way.


Excerpt:



To the shock and dismay of hopeful Westerners, including nearly all NATO leaders, the hard hit of sanctions has caused Russians to hate the West, not Putin. Most Russians view their war in Ukraine as a legitimate defense of Russians and Russian interests, certainly nothing like America’s aggressive wars of choice halfway around the world, and they are backing the Kremlin now.[/size][/font][/size]

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-is
-on-a-holy-mission-and-the-west-doesnt-get-it-2015-1




Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 28, 2015, 08:07:53 AM
The result of a controlled media. 


So what's their perspective on Mariuopol, a city which does not have a burning desire to be part of "Novorossiya", and where civilians were indiscriminately shelled, and killed, by the "rebels"?

Title: United Russia Lawmaker Defends Health Benefits of Going Hungry
Post by: Larry1 on January 28, 2015, 11:49:20 AM
Quote
United Russia Lawmaker Defends 'Health Benefits' of Going Hungry

A lawmaker who was slammed for saying struggling Russians should battle rising food prices by "eating less," has defended himself by citing the health benefits of going cold and hungry.

Ilya Gaffner, a United Russia lawmaker in the Urals' Sverdlovsk region, said in televised comments last week that the 25- percent increase in food prices in his region was "not that bad" if people managed to control their appetites.

The comment sparked a torrent of criticism, with many accusing the politician of being out of touch with the lives of ordinary Russians.

Far from backtracking on his remarks, however, Gaffner told the local Ura.ru news site on Tuesday that it had been "scientifically proven" that the body functions better when it is cold and hungry.

Gaffner said Russians had traditionally used the period after New Year to "rid their bodies of excesses" ahead of Lent, suggesting this year they would be able to save money while scrimping on servings.

... Gaffner said he was on a 13-day diet.

"Every day, I eat something different," he said. "Today, tvorog and apples. Tomorrow, rice and tomato sauce. The day after — beef stew. And on top of that I exercise. Of course it's hard. I'm talking to you now, and barely have enough energy," he told the journalist.

Gaffner said the harsh economic conditions would not affect Russians' resilience or their willingness to stand up for themselves and their president.

"We are a special people … We would rather save — go cold and hungry — but win," he told Ura.ru.

Food price inflation in Russia has peaked over a sharp devaluation of the ruble and Western sanctions imposed over Russia's role in the Ukraine conflict. Inflation is expected to accelerate even more this year.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/515055.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm
_campaign=Feed%3A+themoscowtimes%2Fnews
+%28The+Moscow+Times+News%29

Here is another Russian politician who advocates that Russians eat less to support Putin:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/
news/article/top-official-vows-russians
-will-eat-less-for-putin/514850.html
Title: Re: United Russia Lawmaker Defends Health Benefits of Going Hungry
Post by: ML on January 28, 2015, 12:00:08 PM
He is on to something.

The USA would be a lot better off healthwise if millions here followed  his advice.
Title: Re: United Russia Lawmaker Defends Health Benefits of Going Hungry
Post by: Brasscasing on January 28, 2015, 12:06:37 PM
Skimming the eight or nine articles on my search page relating to this latest propaganda I think the Russians are indulging themselves in the pretense that they actually have a choice in the matter.

The politicians (Putin's henchmen) are telling their serfs in so many words it's now their patriotic duty to starve for the (new) boss.

Brass
Title: Re: United Russia Lawmaker Defends Health Benefits of Going Hungry
Post by: mendeleyev on January 28, 2015, 12:48:00 PM
ML, if millions walked as often and far as the daily jaunt of the average Russian, weight would not be an issue in the USA.
Title: Re: United Russia Lawmaker Defends Health Benefits of Going Hungry
Post by: mendeleyev on January 28, 2015, 12:52:48 PM
Brass, spot on.

The people are asked to accept a plunging Ruble, inflated prices, reduced social services, unmarked casket shipments, and their pensions will be diverted to protect their country against aggressive enemy neighbors with evil and expansive mega empires such as Estonia, Latvia, Sweden, Moldova, Poland, Finland, well, somebody.
Title: Re: United Russia Lawmaker Defends Health Benefits of Going Hungry
Post by: ML on January 28, 2015, 12:52:51 PM
Yeah, I know.

We follow a program of walking Tue, Thur, Sat for 3 miles, weight lifting Mon, Wed and Fri, and Pilates on Sundays.

But I still gain weight, while Ochka continues to fit into size 6 jeans as she has since age 18.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 28, 2015, 12:57:33 PM
FT, and your link isn't even honest.

The sanctions that have hit average Russians in the pocketbook are not the Western sanctions against certain individuals and financial institutions in Russia, instead the bread and butter sanctions that hurt the average citizen were authored and ordered under the phrase "reverse sanctions" by President Putin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 28, 2015, 01:24:24 PM
FT, and your link isn't even honest.

The sanctions that have hit average Russians in the pocketbook are not the Western sanctions against certain individuals and financial institutions in Russia, instead the bread and butter sanctions that hurt the average citizen were authored and ordered under the phrase "reverse sanctions" by President Putin.

Yes they were authored and ordered by Putin yet Putin has convinced the average Russian that the USA and the EU and Nato are to blame.  And some people think that Putin is a fool.   :o
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 28, 2015, 02:55:11 PM
Russian mercenary confessed Russian army fights under the guise of militants in Donbas. PHOTOS


http://en.censor.net.ua/photo_news/322002/
russian_mercenary_confessed_russian_army_
fights_under_the_guise_of_militants_in_donbas_photos
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 28, 2015, 03:25:17 PM
FT, and your link isn't even honest.

The sanctions that have hit average Russians in the pocketbook are not the Western sanctions against certain individuals and financial institutions in Russia, instead the bread and butter sanctions that hurt the average citizen were authored and ordered under the phrase "reverse sanctions" by President Putin.


Mendeleyev, the article wasn't really centered around who initiated which sanctions.  It discussed lots of other important things...one of which I found interesting is the Obama speech in which he seemed to try to brag about Russia losing, at which point Russia immediately began to accelerate their apparent activities.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 28, 2015, 04:33:41 PM
Russian Hackers Leak List of Pro-Russian Influence Group Made of High-Profile European Individuals


The endeavor to attract pro-Russian individuals in Europe is financed by Konstantin Malofeev, according to Shaltay Boltay (Google Translate), who leaked various messages relating to the activity of the organizations controlled and financed by the 40-year-old multimillionaire.

On the list of personalities either targeted to become “friends of Russia” or already in the club, released by the Ukrainian publication Texty (Google Translate), there are prominent figures in Europe and outside of it; the document from Texty is named “agents,” suggesting that they have already been recruited with the help of Russia Today news channel.

It contains entries of individuals from Romania, Poland, Turkey, Hungary, Argentina, France, Croatia, Slovakia, Serbia, Greece, Lebanon, Italy, Germany, Chile, and Malaysia.
Influencers in high positions wanted

The individuals are occupying important positions in their countries, which allows them certain degree of influence, and have either met Dugin himself or his representatives. They are politicians (former prime ministers and presidents), journalists, scientists, professors, philosophers, government employees, and even priests.

Among the names listed there are Ion Iliescu (former president of Romania), Suleyman Demirel (former president of Turkey), Roman Giertych (former minister of education in Poland), Viktor Orbán (prime minister of Hungary), Robert Fico (prime minister of Slovakia), Vojislav Kostunica (former president of Serbia), Massimo Fini (Italian journalist), Tiberio Gratsiani (president of the Institute of Geopolitics and Applied Sciences in Italy), Jurgen Elsasser (German journalist and political activist), and Felix Allemand (German anti-globalization blogger).

The list is quite expansive, and at the end, it is mentioned that similar opportunities have been identified in the US, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, Iran, India, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, Switzerland, England, Bulgaria, and Canada.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 28, 2015, 08:56:52 PM
Now for some news of the bizarre variety...

Russia may declare 1990 reunification illegal

..."More than 25 years after the Berlin Wall's fall, Russian lawmakers are mulling a proposal to condemn West Germany's 1990 "annexation" of East Germany as Moscow's answer to Western denunciation of its seizure of Crimea.

Sergei Naryshkin, speaker of Russian parliament's lower house, on Wednesday ordered legislators to consider an appeal from a Communist Party deputy to denounce the reunification of Germany as an illegal land grab of East Germany by its western neighbour.

The collapse of Socialist rule in East Germany - officially known as the German Democratic Republic (GDR) - heralded the end of the Cold War, and was met with jubilation in the West.

But the Communist lawmaker sponsoring the proposal argued the absorption of the GDR - a Soviet Union satellite since the end of WWII - into a unified Germany in October 1990 was illegal."...

http://www.thelocal.de/20150128/
russia-may-declare-german-reunification-illegal

Either these people have been sampling the old KGB stores of Crystal Meth or the pressure's getting to them.

We may see more of these outlandish proposals/announcements coming from the Russian parliament as time goes on.

Brass


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on January 28, 2015, 09:23:49 PM
Now for some news of the bizarre variety...

Russia may declare 1990 reunification illegal

..."More than 25 years after the Berlin Wall's fall, Russian lawmakers are mulling a proposal to condemn West Germany's 1990 "annexation" of East Germany as Moscow's answer to Western denunciation of its seizure of Crimea.

Sergei Naryshkin, speaker of Russian parliament's lower house, on Wednesday ordered legislators to consider an appeal from a Communist Party deputy to denounce the reunification of Germany as an illegal land grab of East Germany by its western neighbour.

The collapse of Socialist rule in East Germany - officially known as the German Democratic Republic (GDR) - heralded the end of the Cold War, and was met with jubilation in the West.

But the Communist lawmaker sponsoring the proposal argued the absorption of the GDR - a Soviet Union satellite since the end of WWII - into a unified Germany in October 1990 was illegal."...



Either these people have been sampling the old KGB stores of Crystal Meth or the pressure's getting to them.

We may see more of these outlandish proposals/announcements coming from the Russian parliament as time goes on.

Brass

Still waiting for Putin to ride his horse (shirtless) into Alaska and claim it belongs to Russia.     ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 28, 2015, 09:43:49 PM
Still waiting for Putin to ride his horse (shirtless) into Alaska and claim it belongs to Russia.     ;D

LOL.

(http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/3/2933/putin-17.jpg)

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 28, 2015, 11:09:09 PM
Still waiting for Putin to ride his horse (shirtless) into Alaska and claim it belongs to Russia.     ;D


They may try and save East Germany from illegal annexation first. Russian Parliament has nothing better to talk about. One would think the economy would top their list.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 29, 2015, 03:02:03 AM
Quote
Mendeleyev, the article wasn't really centered around who initiated which sanctions.


True, you posted this:

Quote
To the shock and dismay of hopeful Westerners, including nearly all NATO leaders, the hard hit of sanctions has caused Russians to hate the West, not Putin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 29, 2015, 06:32:22 AM

True, you posted this:


 True, that was a part of the quote I quoted from the article...carry on.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on January 29, 2015, 12:10:15 PM
Some here might find this article of interest; the Russian tactic of Maskirovka:
Quote
Russia's annexation of Crimea last year caught almost everyone off guard. The Russian military disguised its actions, and denied them - but those "little green men" who popped up in the Black Sea peninsula were a textbook case of the Russian practice of military deception - or maskirovka.

At a cadet school in the southern suburbs of Moscow, Maj Gen Alexander Vladimirov heaves two enormous red volumes off his bookcase and slams them down on the table. "My Theory and Science of Warfare," he says, beaming. "It's three times longer than Leo Tolstoy's War and Peace!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31020283
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 29, 2015, 06:08:09 PM
Some here might find this article of interest; the Russian tactic of Maskirovka:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-31020283

Emerald,

This excerpt from your article is illuminating: 


Quote
Peter Pomerantsev, who recently spent several years working on documentaries and reality shows for Russian TV, argues that Russian state media are not just distorting truth in Ukraine, they go much further, promoting a seductive nihilism.

"The Russian strategy, both at home and abroad, is to say there is no such thing as truth," he says.

"I mean, you know, 'The Americans are bad, we're bad, and everyone's bad, so what's the big deal about us being a bit corrupt? You know our democracy's a sham, their democracy's a sham.'

"It's a sort of cynicism that actually resonates very powerfully in the West nowadays with this lack of self-confidence after the Iraq War, after the financial crash - and that's what the Russians are hoping for, just to take that cynicism and then use that in a military environment."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 29, 2015, 06:23:41 PM
Emerald,

This excerpt from your article is illuminating:

The excerpt you posted is why guys like live from Ukraine and fathertime permeate these forums and are so eager to try to justify or nullify the actions of Putin.  People looking for a conspiracy theory are easy prey for Russian propaganda. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 29, 2015, 06:37:37 PM

They may try and save East Germany from illegal annexation first. Russian Parliament has nothing better to talk about. One would think the economy would top their list.


Actually, they sound like some hard core Republicans in this forum.


Seriously, compare their statements' inanity.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War Libya vs Ukraine
Post by: fathertime on January 29, 2015, 06:58:17 PM
I was reading an article today on FoxNews.  I found the article so disturbing that I thought I'd post it here.  My take on the article is that it more or less paints Hillary Clinton as Vlad Putin.  If what the article says is true (and it appears to be), Mrs Clinton will not be receiving my vote and I hope to god she isn't elected.  Apparently she had made her mind up to take out the leader of the country under the false pretense that he was going to commit genocide. The pentagon officials knew this and tried to work around Mrs Clinton but obviously failed, but they are now coming forward with their story.  A different version but in a similar vein as Ukraine...and the war and chaos after in Libya has left 10's of 1000's dead..... As I've said many times, we have no room to speak on these matters and I'm near certain that is how the Russian's rightfully feel on the issue too!   
 Here is a little excerpt:


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/29/report-pentagon-officials-opened-secret-talks-with-qaddafi-regime-to-slow/?intcmp=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/29/report-pentagon-officials-opened-secret-talks-with-qaddafi-regime-to-slow/?intcmp=latestnews)







Pentagon officials were so concerned with then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's push in 2011 to back Libyan rebels against Muammar Qaddafi that they opened their own back-channels with Qaddafi to try and prevent the U.S. from entering the civil war, according to a report that cited newly uncovered audio tapes. ......[/size]The Washington Times story suggests that the Obama administration's efforts, led by Clinton, were focused on regime change, not a negotiated settlement, during the lead-up to the war. [/color][/b][/size]It suggests that son Seif Qaddafi and other leaders insisted they had no intention of conducting genocide against Libyan civilians, and had made overtures to Washington to negotiate a resolution before the bombs dropped. [/color]The story says that the recordings indicated Clinton allegedly "ordered a general within the Pentagon to refuse to take a call with Gadhafi's son Seif and other high-level members within the regime, to help negotiate the resolution." [/color][/color][/color][/color][/color][/color] [/color][/color][/color]

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 29, 2015, 07:05:43 PM
You seem like a smart man.


Don't you know that many (if not most) people who watch Faux News are so misinformed they normally don't make sense?


Study after study. Seriously. Look it up.


Not that you should vote for Hillary.  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 29, 2015, 07:21:11 PM
Russian protestors against the war in Ukraine who hoisted a German flag in Kaliningrad (formerly E. Prussia) are now facing a 7 year prison sentence.  They did it to protest by saying: If Russia can hoist Russian flags in Crimea, what is to stop Germans from hoisting German flags in Kaliningrad?  Good question.

excerpt
In March 2014, two political activists from the Committee of Public Self-Defense, Mikhail Feldman and Oleg Savvin, together with their Moscow colleague, Dmitry Fonarev, hoisted a German flag over the Federal Security Service (FSB) building in Kaliningrad. In an interview with Novaya Gazeta, they explained that their protest was not to demonstrate support for Germany, but rather for Ukraine. It was designed to denounce the Russian government’s support of the separatist movement in southeastern Ukraine. By flying the flag in Kaliningrad, a city that was part of Germany until 1945 (as Königsberg), the protestors were sending a message: if Russia can hang its flags in Crimea, which is part of a foreign country (Ukraine), why someone can’t do a similar thing in Russia?

http://imrussia.org/en/opinions/2160-symbols-and-sentences
Title: Re: The Propaganda War Libya vs Ukraine
Post by: Brasscasing on January 29, 2015, 07:28:56 PM
I was reading an article today on FoxNews.  I found the article so disturbing that I thought I'd post it here.  My take on the article is that it more or less paints Hillary Clinton as Vlad Putin.  If what the article says is true (and it appears to be), Mrs Clinton will not be receiving my vote and I hope to god she isn't elected.  Apparently she had made her mind up to take out the leader of the country under the false pretense that he was going to commit genocide. The pentagon officials knew this and tried to work around Mrs Clinton but obviously failed, but they are now coming forward with their story.  A different version but in a similar vein as Ukraine...and the war and chaos after in Libya has left 10's of 1000's dead..... As I've said many times, we have no room to speak on these matters and I'm near certain that is how the Russian's rightfully feel on the issue too!   
 Here is a little excerpt:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/29/report-pentagon-officials-opened-secret-talks-with-qaddafi-regime-to-slow/?intcmp=latestnews (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/01/29/report-pentagon-officials-opened-secret-talks-with-qaddafi-regime-to-slow/?intcmp=latestnews)

Pentagon officials were so concerned with then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton's push in 2011 to back Libyan rebels against Muammar Qaddafi that they opened their own back-channels with Qaddafi to try and prevent the U.S. from entering the civil war, according to a report that cited newly uncovered audio tapes. ......[/size]The Washington Times story suggests that the Obama administration's efforts, led by Clinton, were focused on regime change, not a negotiated settlement, during the lead-up to the war. [/color][/b][/size]It suggests that son Seif Qaddafi and other leaders insisted they had no intention of conducting genocide against Libyan civilians, and had made overtures to Washington to negotiate a resolution before the bombs dropped. [/color]The story says that the recordings indicated Clinton allegedly "ordered a general within the Pentagon to refuse to take a call with Gadhafi's son Seif and other high-level members within the regime, to help negotiate the resolution.

And the Fox News 2016 Presidential campaign is underway, folks. :P

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 29, 2015, 07:29:29 PM
You seem like a smart man.


Don't you know that many (if not most) people who watch Faux News are so misinformed they normally don't make sense?


Study after study. Seriously. Look it up.


Not that you should vote for Hillary.  ;D


Hehe, nobody seems to like my sources!!!  I'm not very interested in Fox News nowadays, but hey this story looks pretty legit.   The last thing I want to see in our new president is somebody who is going to jump the gun in more foreign conflicts...that is a disaster in the making.....if that is how Hillary behaves then lets find another representative for the Democratic side and make sure a republican moderates his stated positions if he/she ends up winning.   :D


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 29, 2015, 07:40:28 PM

Hehe, nobody seems to like my sources!!!  I'm not very interested in Fox News nowadays, but hey this story looks pretty legit.   The last thing I want to see in our new president is somebody who is going to jump the gun in more foreign conflicts...that is a disaster in the making.....if that is how Hillary behaves then lets find another representative for the Democratic side and make sure a republican moderates his stated positions if he/she ends up winning.   :D


Fathertime!


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/CampH_zps7a2869fa.jpg)


That rules out ANY Republican candidate.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 07:07:52 AM

(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/CampH_zps7a2869fa.jpg)


That rules out ANY Republican candidate.


That may well be.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 07:18:19 AM
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this article which seems to be criticizing Ukraine's leadership on several levels and Poroshenko is in some jeopardy now from the far right groups.  The article sharply criticized a Ukraine official for speaking in Germany and saying that during WWII The Soviets invaded both Germany and Ukraine, which is a history rewrite. Well anyway, it appears to be a factual, and surprising article....and comes from what appears to be a stellar source (magazine)!  :D 


http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ukraine-exposed-kievs-authoritarianism-12151 (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ukraine-exposed-kievs-authoritarianism-12151)


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 30, 2015, 08:13:39 AM

Quote
The last thing I want to see in our new president is somebody who is going to jump the gun in more foreign conflicts...that is a disaster in the making.....


That rules out ANY Republican candidate.


Check out Jeb Bush.  He is the silent, strong type.   Strong enough to push back the party's neo conservatives yet not follow neo-isolationism.  While he would keep military options on the table, he believes international economic growth is the glue for world stability.  Mainstream democrats can find little fault with his immigration and education policies.

His family name is a negative with many, yet the family connections to Republican organizations is a huge asset for the primaries.  One huge problem, Jeb lacks pizazz, and thus will not appeal to those ignoring intellect or wanting "rah rah." 

We are getting ahead of ourselves.  There is still much to be learned about Jeb.  Hillary, we know.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 30, 2015, 08:25:13 AM
Sorry, Gator,

Jeb will have no appeal outside his circles.  How ever would he win over, say, the Latino voters?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on January 30, 2015, 10:47:34 AM
This Youtube vid is causing a stir in Russia.  Reminiscent of the Hitler, Stalin and the current Kim Jong Un (all songs written in North Korea are about Kim) state approved devotion songs young Mashani sings her adoration for her darling Putin.

Even if you don't speak Russian watch as much of the vid as you can stomach  because it's an education in symbolism.

However, there is a positive side to it. Apparently the vid is not getting very good reviews even by it's Russia viewers.

Edit: OK, can't seem to link the vid so copy/paste to your browser without the asterisks...

 ***http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-v6Jw9rsWCE***

Brass

 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 30, 2015, 12:41:28 PM
Quote
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this article which seems to be criticizing Ukraine's leadership on several levels and Poroshenko is in some jeopardy now from the far right groups.  The article sharply criticized a Ukraine official for speaking in Germany and saying that during WWII The Soviets invaded both Germany and Ukraine, which is a history rewrite. Well anyway, it appears to be a factual, and surprising article....and comes from what appears to be a stellar source (magazine)!

FT, again, you are grasping at straws. Such does not enhance your obvious position.

A "stellar source?" That depends on the perspective from which you wish to read. My own work has been accepted in a broad variety of media, but I would not waste my time in submission to this organization, as they are one dimensional and looking only for articles that fit their worldview. They have a right to their worldview (it is there on the website), but they do not have the right to twist history to fit their worldview and pass it off as intelligent thought.

Of course Poroshenko has not pleased the far right. And, why should he? They could only muster a small vote in the elections and he does not need to placate the radicals who are bent on burning Moscow to the ground, and with no realistic chance of doing so. Poroshenko has chosen a more moderate path, and if the Ukrainian far right is pissed off, so what?

I have a suggested list for you to accomplish so that you will appear less biased when posting your sources:

- Enroll in a class for Eastern European history. Attend the classes with an open mind.
- Research how many times Ukrainians have tried to be free and independent. Hint: look closely at 1919, 1939, 1945, and 1991.
- Because the Soviets did overrun Ukraine while "liberating" her, the war in Ukraine did not end until what year? Hint: try 1949, not 1945. (Hmm, maybe Yatsenyuk was on to something.)

The author of the article was either biased, or too uneducated, to understand the difference between the UPA, and the "Black Army" called the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Hint: one was nicknamed the "Black Army" and it was a loose confederation of anarchists whose idea finally died out in 1919. The other did temporarily fight alongside the German Army when they needed help defeating the Soviets, but they also fought against the German Nazi Army. They fought against the Poles and Czechs too--anyone who threatened Ukrainian independence.  (If the author cannot tell the difference between the two, why should you follow suit?) Here is an idea: perhaps you could contact the writer and help educate him? But attend those classes first.

As for Poroshenko honouring Ukraine's independence movements of the past? It is about time! Naturally that pisses off the Kremlin, because the Russian narrative is very narrow and they want to rewrite their own history regarding Bandera, etc. I brush past the Russian response; they didn't like Ukraine's acknowledgment of the Holodomor, either.

I am torn between labeling the author as either just ignorant of history, or does he have an agenda? Give me a moment to think about it.....

.....okay, I have thought about it. He is not ignorant.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2015, 01:25:35 PM
I agree with you 100%, mendy.  I read the article and thought it was deeply flawed.
 
First, the intention to remove Russian spies from government - this is a problem in Ukraine right now, and does need to be dealt with. 

Second, the references to UPA are not completely accurate.  It is true, UPA killed Poles indiscriminately, but it is a two way street.  There are many things UPA did which Ukrainians should not be proud of, but UPA was devoted to a Ukrainian state.  That is what Ukrainians honour.

Third the reference to Yatseniuk's statement about the Soviets.  That is true.  The Soviets imprisoned enemies from the East German border east, and held many nations as practically captive.  I would have included the Russians as prisoners of the Soviets as well, though.
 
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on January 30, 2015, 01:28:20 PM
Mendy,

Unfortunately the target of your response is representative of a subset of American people that will not think for themselves.  These are the types that believe that the guys walking around Maidan with Swastikas on their sleeves were not put there by a foreign entity. (What entity would benefit by characterizing Maidan as a Nazi uprising?)  Yet when investigated by accredited journalists, they all fled back into the woodwork.  Hmm, it almost sounds to me like .... wait for it .... that these Nazis might be paid by Russia to demonstrate? 

NO! 

I have heard much about the Neo-Nazis in Ukraine.  But when ever an in depth accounting of this movement occurs, it is cotton candy.  All sugar and no substance.  There is no question that the current Kyiv government does not enjoy stellar approval ratings.  But the most common suspicion from the citizenry is that they are corrupt and in league with Russia.

My observation is that the United States State Department and government is not so easily taken in as these American armchair quarterbacks.  Congress voted unanimously to give the President additional authority to deal with Ukraine.  That should tell all Americans how our government responds to the ongoing genocide of innocent people, perpetrated by its neighbor.

For those of you who wish to watch LifeNews.RU, be my guest.  I watch it regularly and am constantly amused at how events in today's society are twisted to present justification for the Russian invasion of Ukraine.  Funny thing, though.  Today LifeNews was showing a series of actions in the pocket next to Horlivka and accidentally showed a tank from a Russian tank unit, with Russian regular soldiers.  Oops!

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B8nSMAcCIAAjZxU.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on January 30, 2015, 01:59:56 PM
Sorry, Gator,

Jeb will have no appeal outside his circles.  How ever would he win over, say, the Latino voters?

You know the answer, so I wonder if you are setting me up, or just want to hear again:  Mexican wife, fluent in Spanish, compassionate immigration policy (which could deny him the primaries and hence the nomination, yet be the man whom you are, rather than do what Romney did in 2012.

Are you a Rand Paul fan?  Cruz turns me off, and like Rubio is a Cuban, who seem not to identify well with Latinos. 

Anyway, Romney has dropped out (I guess Jeb was receiving the backing of his past donors).  And we have a long way to go.   Back to Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on January 30, 2015, 02:04:44 PM
The excerpt you posted is why guys like live from Ukraine and fathertime permeate these forums and are so eager to try to justify or nullify the actions of Putin.  People looking for a conspiracy theory are easy prey for Russian propaganda.


You do sound like JayH!  haha  The minute someone doesn't agree with you they are Kremlin agents waiting for orders.   Western propaganda is truth and everything else is pure conspiracy theory.  Maybe some day you will learn to think for yourself.  Doubtful, but one can hope.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 03:09:32 PM
FT, again, you are grasping at straws. Such does not enhance your obvious position.

A "stellar source?" That depends on the perspective from which you wish to read. My own work has been accepted in a broad variety of media, but I would not waste my time in submission to this organization, as they are one dimensional and looking only for articles that fit their worldview. They have a right to their worldview (it is there on the website), but they do not have the right to twist history to fit their worldview and pass it off as intelligent thought.

Of course Poroshenko has not pleased the far right. And, why should he? They could only muster a small vote in the elections and he does not need to placate the radicals who are bent on burning Moscow to the ground, and with no realistic chance of doing so. Poroshenko has chosen a more moderate path, and if the Ukrainian far right is pissed off, so what?

I have a suggested list for you to accomplish so that you will appear less biased when posting your sources:

- Enroll in a class for Eastern European history. Attend the classes with an open mind.
- Research how many times Ukrainians have tried to be free and independent. Hint: look closely at 1919, 1939, 1945, and 1991.
- Because the Soviets did overrun Ukraine while "liberating" her, the war in Ukraine did not end until what year? Hint: try 1949, not 1945. (Hmm, maybe Yatsenyuk was on to something.)

The author of the article was either biased, or too uneducated, to understand the difference between the UPA, and the "Black Army" called the Ukrainian Insurgent Army. Hint: one was nicknamed the "Black Army" and it was a loose confederation of anarchists whose idea finally died out in 1919. The other did temporarily fight alongside the German Army when they needed help defeating the Soviets, but they also fought against the German Nazi Army. They fought against the Poles and Czechs too--anyone who threatened Ukrainian independence.  (If the author cannot tell the difference between the two, why should you follow suit?) Here is an idea: perhaps you could contact the writer and help educate him? But attend those classes first.

As for Poroshenko honouring Ukraine's independence movements of the past? It is about time! Naturally that pisses off the Kremlin, because the Russian narrative is very narrow and they want to rewrite their own history regarding Bandera, etc. I brush past the Russian response; they didn't like Ukraine's acknowledgment of the Holodomor, either.

I am torn between labeling the author as either just ignorant of history, or does he have an agenda? Give me a moment to think about it.....

.....okay, I have thought about it. He is not ignorant.


Well Mendeleyev, it appears you feel this article (and website) are to be dismissed as one sided...like the others.


 Still don't get all the 'grasping' at straw's' types of statements.  I'm merely bringing to light a viewpoint...so how does that bare a resemblance to 'grasping at straws'? 


Fathertime!   

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 30, 2015, 07:21:24 PM

That rules out ANY Republican candidate.



Check out Jeb Bush.  He is the silent, strong type.   Strong enough to push back the party's neo conservatives yet not follow neo-isolationism.  While he would keep military options on the table, he believes international economic growth is the glue for world stability.  Mainstream democrats can find little fault with his immigration and education policies.

His family name is a negative with many, yet the family connections to Republican organizations is a huge asset for the primaries.  One huge problem, Jeb lacks pizazz, and thus will not appeal to those ignoring intellect or wanting "rah rah." 

We are getting ahead of ourselves.  There is still much to be learned about Jeb.  Hillary, we know.


I met Jeb back in 1979 when we were campaigning for his father during the Republican primaries.


He is a very nice guy and knew Spanish back then. Well, he could get around.


He fell head over heels with one of our campaign ladies and a schoolmate of mine at the University. She is now a PR senator. Has been for a very long time.


But she didn't like the 'gringo." No fire she said.


I wouldn't mind voting for him.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 30, 2015, 07:22:58 PM

Well Mendeleyev, it appears you feel this article (and website) are to be dismissed as one sided...like the others.


 Still don't get all the 'grasping' at straw's' types of statements.  I'm merely bringing to light a viewpoint...so how does that bare a resemblance to 'grasping at straws'? 


Fathertime!


You very well know the answer to that. Don't be coy.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 30, 2015, 07:54:17 PM
Quote
Well Mendeleyev, it appears you feel this article (and website) are to be dismissed as one sided...like the others.

Yep, I can read. http://nationalinterest.org/about-the-national-interest

Quote
It is guided by the belief that nothing will enhance those interests as effectively as the approach to foreign affairs commonly known as realism—a school of thought traditionally associated with such thinkers and statesmen as Disraeli, Bismarck, and Henry Kissinger. Though the shape of international politics has changed considerably in the past few decades, the magazine’s fundamental tenets have not. Instead, they have proven enduring and, indeed, appear to be enjoying something of a popular renaissance. Until recently, however, liberal hawks and neoconservatives have successfully attempted to stifle debate by arguing that prudence about the use of American power abroad was imprudent—by, in short, disparaging realism as a moribund doctrine that is wholly inimical to American idealism.

There is nothing wrong with them holding an opinion. There is something wrong with any publication if facts are twisted and quotes are misrepresented.


Quote
Still don't get all the 'grasping' at straw's' types of statements.  I'm merely bringing to light a viewpoint...so how does that bare a resemblance to 'grasping at straws'?


But you didn't present it as a "viewpoint." What you said was:

Quote
Well anyway, it appears to be a factual, and surprising article....and comes from what appears to be a stellar source (magazine)!


I chastised you because even a Ukrainian grade school child would challenge those things you labeled as "factural." Such naive acceptance causes you to appear gullible and certainly does not make your argument seem intelligent, which is why I suggested that you take some classes in Ukrainian history.

FT, how many times have you been to Ukraine? How many trips to Russia? Have you lived for an extended time in either place?
 


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on January 30, 2015, 08:25:43 PM
I chastised you because even a Ukrainian grade school child would challenge those things you labeled as "factural." Such naive acceptance causes you to appear gullible and certainly does not make your argument seem intelligent, which is why I suggested that you take some classes in Ukrainian history.


Yo're supposed to be so damn clever mendelevtev (yet provide only trash-Putin stuff).
Welll, I don't know who you really are, nor do I care. You do all the pro-nazi propaganda you feel you must do. But when you link, link to the one you're responding to. And that goes for the rest of you......
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 08:36:19 PM
Yep, I can read. http://nationalinterest.org/about-the-national-interest (http://nationalinterest.org/about-the-national-interest)

 


Judging by what you quoted it appears you are saying the website is one-sided? I don't agree though, the 'mission statement' comes from a point of view that considers both sides, and what is pragmatic and true.    Clearly the world often doesn't care about some of these points at times. 





But you didn't present it as a "viewpoint."



Actually I think I did...I used the world "Appears"...that is NOT a solid word like 'definitely'..it is a word that demonstrates being approachable and willing to discuss.



I chastised you because even a Ukrainian grade school child would challenge those things you labeled as "factural." Such naive acceptance causes you to appear gullible and certainly does not make your argument seem intelligent, which is why I suggested that you take some classes in Ukrainian history.


Actually once again you are incorrect.  The one thing I mentioned that appeared to be correct is I agreed with the criticism of the Yats comment which seemed to be a self-serving statement Linking Ukraine to Germany...when it appears to be 2 different sets of facts in the WWII time period....so I don't see a reason for the Author of the article to be criticized too harshly on that point...


You said THINGS, so what other specific points did I say were factual?  Mainly I brought the article here for some dissection and discussion...although you have decided to make it about me, and are making personal statements as a substitute for discussion on the points you don't agree with. 




There is nothing wrong with them holding an opinion. There is something wrong with any publication if facts are twisted and quotes are misrepresented.




So what facts are facts that are twisted?  What are the quotes that are misrepresented? I'm curious.


Fathertime!   

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 08:46:06 PM

You very well know the answer to that. Don't be coy.  :rolleyes:


 ;D >:D


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 08:48:57 PM
Yo're supposed to be so damn clever mendelevtev (yet provide only trash-Putin stuff).
Welll, I don't know who you really are, nor do I care. You do all the pro-nazi propaganda you feel you must do. But when you link, link to the one you're responding to. And that goes for the rest of you......


I agree with the gist of this point...many people here are very quick to criticize Putin and Russia and very quick to forgive and forget the USA and our transgressions (which have killed 100's of 1000's now).  If we (the USA) was held to account for our sins, then other nations like Russia probably wouldn't feel the need to level the playing field their own way.  IMO


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2015, 08:54:59 PM
That may be true of the Americans here, but it's not universal.  I, for example, always opposed the Iraq war.  I believe Muzh did, too.


But, this isn't about the U.S., which AFAIK, unlike Russia, has not invaded a country with a democratically elected government, and one which has a right to decide its own fate.  It is about Russia's interference in the Ukrainian state.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 08:58:50 PM

But, this isn't about the U.S., which AFAIK, unlike Russia, has not invaded a country with a democratically elected government, and one which has a right to decide its own fate.  It is about Russia's interference in the Ukrainian state.
..and I'm convinced that Russia is reacting to a world that has seen numerous leaders that were friendly with Russia being toppled with help from the USA.  So I continue to believe that this event in Ukraine can not be held out on it's own, it is part of a much bigger picture...and when one looks at the much bigger picture it is better understood.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on January 30, 2015, 09:05:27 PM
Like who?  Every leader "toppled" deserved it, as he was either a dictator who committed horrendous crimes against his own people, or a common thief.


The US was not involved in the toppling of Yanukovych.  He did that to himself.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 09:15:28 PM
  Every leader "toppled" deserved it, as he was either a dictator who committed horrendous crimes against his own people, or a common thief.


I don't think that we should be selectively making that call from across oceans...but if we continue to do so, other nations will too...
Libya and Perhaps soon Syria...Iraq....sanctions in Iran, with the intent on changing their leadership.  Russia may feel the need to start arming nations it has good relations with to prevent further issues....that is where this can wind up going if you think ahead 3-4 moves. 


Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Taz on January 30, 2015, 09:31:09 PM
FT- Russian has often armed nations, typically dictators or puppet governments under its control. Generally it has supported governments that are more oppressive than most. Not to say the US hasn't done some of that but normally Russia has supported the fascist or communistic countries.


Having lived in socialistic and communistic countries as well as democratic, I'll obviously take true democracy over the previous ones. I lived in Russia during the cold war period and later. As bad as Russia was in some ways then, it actually seemed slightly freer then than now. Putin is a straight up dictator, no point even calling him a president. The idea of voting in Russia is almost laughable. Your vote counts if you rubber stamp Putin's agenda. All dissent is shut down. It reminds me of the first time I saw the KGB in action years ago when I was staying in the Intourist Hotel in Moscow not long after it was built. I never saw a person so frightened in my life (at least up until that point) as when 2 KGB agents drug a Russian man from the bar at the hotel. He was kicking and screaming and obviously frightened for his life.


I think one thing should be clear about all of this. Russia's INTENT here is nothing positive. It is totally about domination and invasion of Ukraine under false pretenses. Russians weren't really at risk and even if they were, in incredibly small numbers. Ukraine's intent has always just been to defend it's own sovereignty. Every nation has a right to do so. What Russia is doing is illegal, immoral and unjust and must be stopped. No matter how you spin it, it is wrong.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 30, 2015, 09:47:13 PM
I think one thing should be clear about all of this. Russia's INTENT here is nothing positive. It is totally about domination and invasion of Ukraine under false pretenses. Russians weren't really at risk and even if they were, in incredibly small numbers. Ukraine's intent has always just been to defend it's own sovereignty. Every nation has a right to do so. What Russia is doing is illegal, immoral and unjust and must be stopped. No matter how you spin it, it is wrong.

And spin they do.  I never thought it would be possible to spin away reality with a totally made up version of an alternate reality, but that's exactly what they've done.

I find it very tragic that NATO and the USA are apparently going to do next to nothing if an invasion happens.  I guess the only hope is that Mr. Putin will not go through with it because he's got to know the next level of sanctions will likely cause a total collapse of his economy.  Will even this possibility stop him?  Will Poroshenko offer him some sort of a deal that makes him happy?  Stay tuned for "As the worm turns".
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 10:11:59 PM
FT- Russian has often armed nations, typically dictators or puppet governments under its control. Generally it has supported governments that are more oppressive than most. Not to say the US hasn't done some of that but normally Russia has supported the fascist or communistic countries.


Having lived in socialistic and communistic countries as well as democratic, I'll obviously take true democracy over the previous ones. I lived in Russia during the cold war period and later. As bad as Russia was in some ways then, it actually seemed slightly freer then than now. Putin is a straight up dictator, no point even calling him a president. The idea of voting in Russia is almost laughable. Your vote counts if you rubber stamp Putin's agenda. All dissent is shut down. It reminds me of the first time I saw the KGB in action years ago when I was staying in the Intourist Hotel in Moscow not long after it was built. I never saw a person so frightened in my life (at least up until that point) as when 2 KGB agents drug a Russian man from the bar at the hotel. He was kicking and screaming and obviously frightened for his life.


I think one thing should be clear about all of this. Russia's INTENT here is nothing positive. It is totally about domination and invasion of Ukraine under false pretenses. Russians weren't really at risk and even if they were, in incredibly small numbers. Ukraine's intent has always just been to defend it's own sovereignty. Every nation has a right to do so. What Russia is doing is illegal, immoral and unjust and must be stopped. No matter how you spin it, it is wrong.


Thanks for sharing your thoughts TAZ....one thing though, what you call 'spin' may actually be quite true...and if it is then it you that is being spun.  Some insist it is a very simple case of Russian aggression, I continue to not see it that way...at this point I don't think there are any good guys...and we delude ourselves by thinking we are...I think the best we can hope for is a peace where all get something, but not everything.


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 30, 2015, 10:27:40 PM
Quote
You do all the pro-nazi propaganda you feel you must do.

Natural, I'll let you do that. It seems more up your alley.

If you know the definition of Nazi, then feel free to link where I have supported such.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 30, 2015, 10:30:07 PM
Quote
So what facts are facts that are twisted?  What are the quotes that are misrepresented? I'm curious.

FT, I already suggested classes. Go get an education.

I already pointed out areas of misrepresentation, but I have begun to doubt your comprehension abilities.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Taz on January 30, 2015, 10:30:50 PM
I think I have a pretty good handle on it. I had an apartment in Crimea. My in-laws are from Crimea and Russia. I was at Maidan for several months when it started. My ex is from Eastern Ukraine and I spent a ton of time in Donetsk and Mariupol (not to mention all over Ukraine and Russia both and lived extensively in Russia).


I would say in many ways I have a better handle on it that most Ukrainians or Russians. Many just read the news, whereas I have often "lived" the news. I was there when Yanukovich first started to use tractors and the like to tear down the barricades. i was out it in the streets then. I talked with the people that were there. I stood along side them and saw the aggression against peaceful protesters. I watched in shock when I later saw people dead in the streets by Berkut.


So for what I saw wasn't spin. I saw it with my own eyes and talked to the people. I am not an armchair quarterback as the saying goes. I live life as I not a spectator. My father in law was a Russian Army office and he is in shock with what Russia is doing. My ex's father and grandfather were both ex Russian army officers and they are both shocked as well. They can't understand why Russia is invading it's brother. They are all ethnic Russians but living in Ukraine now. They have all been active duty as well so they understand, like I, what war is all about when you actually have to fight it.


So for me there is no spin of what I've seen. The only real spin I've seen is from the Russian press which has no ability to speak against Putin or they'll either end up dead or out of business.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 30, 2015, 11:05:15 PM
Quote
Yo're supposed to be so damn clever mendelevtev (yet provide only trash-Putin stuff)

Natural, as far as your claim that I ONLY trash Putin....did you write that simply as an angry reaction?

ONLY Putin bashing. Hmm....

Vietnam Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347143#msg347143 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347143#msg347143)

Netherlands/Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347024#msg347024 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347024#msg347024)

Putin China: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347623#msg347623 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347623#msg347623)

South Korea/Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347630#msg347630 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347630#msg347630)

Mendeleyev on Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347658#msg347658 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347658#msg347658)

Mendeleyev on Russia with Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347777#msg347777 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg347777#msg347777)

Mendeleyev on North Korea and Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg348015#msg348015 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg348015#msg348015)

Mendeleyev ciritical of US foreign policy with Russia: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg357841#msg357841 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg357841#msg357841)

Mendeleyev on new USA Ambassador to Russia: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg371045#msg371045 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16627.msg371045#msg371045)

Mendeleyev defends Putin on Super bowl ring story: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337104#msg337104 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337104#msg337104)

More of Mendeleyev defends Putin super bowl ring: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337890#msg337890 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337890#msg337890)

Edward Snowden's arrival in Moscow: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337111#msg337111 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337111#msg337111)

FEMA and Russia team up: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337812#msg337812 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg337812#msg337812)

Defending Putin on missile defense: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg339855#msg339855 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg339855#msg339855)

Mendeleyev defends Putin on Syria: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg341598#msg341598 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg341598#msg341598)

Mendeleyev with Putin in Vladivostok: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg341974#msg341974 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg341974#msg341974)

At G20 Mendeleyev touts Putin: http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg342249#msg342249 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16050.msg342249#msg342249)

There is a lot more, so if you need, I can keep giving you links.


Natural, tell me again how I supposedly only "trash Putin."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 30, 2015, 11:54:45 PM
FT, I already suggested classes. Go get an education.

I already pointed out areas of misrepresentation, but I have begun to doubt your comprehension abilities.


In this particular case it is YOU that isn't comprehending.  I've reviewed my original comments that you had a problem with...and I'm not seeing why you are grumbling about apparently numerous comments I had made. 


Here is the article again:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ukraine-exposed-kievs-authoritarianism-12151 (http://nationalinterest.org/feature/ukraine-exposed-kievs-authoritarianism-12151)
and here are my original comments that you have a problem with pertaining[size=78%] to that article. [/size]
[/size]
[/size]
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this article which seems to be criticizing Ukraine's leadership on several levels and Poroshenko is in some jeopardy now from the far right groups.  The article sharply criticized a Ukraine official for speaking in Germany and saying that during WWII The Soviets invaded both Germany and Ukraine, which is a history rewrite. Well anyway, it appears to be a factual, and surprising article....and comes from what appears to be a stellar source (magazine)!  :D   Fathertime!
[size=78%]


So where have I slanted all the facts?  Are you sure you just don't want to hear a loud voice against what you seem to be for? 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 31, 2015, 12:04:03 AM
I think I have a pretty good handle on it. I had an apartment in Crimea. My in-laws are from Crimea and Russia. I was at Maidan for several months when it started. My ex is from Eastern Ukraine and I spent a ton of time in Donetsk and Mariupol (not to mention all over Ukraine and Russia both and lived extensively in Russia).


I would say in many ways I have a better handle on it that most Ukrainians or Russians. Many just read the news, whereas I have often "lived" the news. I was there when Yanukovich first started to use tractors and the like to tear down the barricades. i was out it in the streets then. I talked with the people that were there. I stood along side them and saw the aggression against peaceful protesters. I watched in shock when I later saw people dead in the streets by Berkut.


So for what I saw wasn't spin. I saw it with my own eyes and talked to the people. I am not an armchair quarterback as the saying goes. I live life as I not a spectator. My father in law was a Russian Army office and he is in shock with what Russia is doing. My ex's father and grandfather were both ex Russian army officers and they are both shocked as well. They can't understand why Russia is invading it's brother. They are all ethnic Russians but living in Ukraine now. They have all been active duty as well so they understand, like I, what war is all about when you actually have to fight it.


So for me there is no spin of what I've seen. The only real spin I've seen is from the Russian press which has no ability to speak against Putin or they'll either end up dead or out of business.


Don't get me wrong Taz, I'm sure you have a good handle of what is one the ground there.  The spin I'm referring isn't in regards to events today....but rather over a couple decades....We shouldn't expect other countries to sit by and watch us (The US) gain more and more worldwide control...we have been using whatever means necessary and lots of people are dying...other nations will do the same....some similarities to what all the colonial empires were doing a hundreds of years ago...no good guys on the playing field.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 31, 2015, 12:31:12 AM
Quote
So where have I slanted all the facts? 

I said that the article did. Are you saying that you wrote the article?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 31, 2015, 12:36:25 AM
I said that the article did. Are you saying that you wrote the article?


hehehe...NO...


In any event... we are bound to disagree on whatever story I link next so we can pick it up from there


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 31, 2015, 07:32:46 AM
Quote
In any event... we are bound to disagree on whatever story I link next so we can pick it up from there

True. It is frustrating for me to see someone with firm opinions based on scant knowledge--and that often misapplied by your sources. I would hope that someday you will visit both countries. Both are worth the time and effort.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 31, 2015, 08:43:45 AM
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this little article over at the Huffington Post that I agreed with.  Some of the statements I strongly agree with, like this one:


The exercise of restraint in the aftermath of the military intervention in South Ossetia in 2008, as Putin did not extend military efforts to the entire Caucasus, indicates that the Kremlin is careful not to conflate a pro-Russian alignment with a desire to unite with Russia. The economic costs and geopolitical fallout of enforcing a Russian occupation on a population that does not desire it, explicitly contradicts Putin's strategic interests, which have been defined by a defensive desire to protect his sphere of influence from what he perceives to be aggressive NATO encroachment.


In the closing paragraph another point is made that makes sense to me, and that is that the Western intervention has made things worse:


Thus far, prospects for a peaceful resolution to the Ukraine crisis have been undermined by the continuous stream of violence, and deep-seated distrust that has undermined cooperation between all parties involved. A self-reinforcing cycle of violence has been created in eastern Ukraine and distorted illusions have been formulated about Putin's intentions in other parts of Eastern Europe. This speculation overlooks the compelling evidence that Russia is on a trajectory of economic and demographic decline, the West's misplaced fears of further Russian aggression will only increase the likelihood of a persistent and potentially escalated conflict in Ukraine.

The article supports the position that the Russian operation intended to be limited, and appears to be a well-reasoned article from a credible source so here is the link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-ramani/why-the-wests-strategy-of_b_6565496.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/samuel-ramani/why-the-wests-strategy-of_b_6565496.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)


Fathertime! 

 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 31, 2015, 09:07:01 AM
...many people here are very quick to criticize Putin and Russia and very quick to forgive and forget the USA and our transgressions (which have killed 100's of 1000's now).



Russia today was similar to America a couple hundred years ago. We wanted land whether it was Indian or Mexican. We took it or bought it. America today is different. There are international laws and America has become the primary enforcer of those laws. American troops are in over 130 countries because we're invited there, not because we invaded.


People around the world are quick to forgive America's transgressions because we've change. If we invade a country, it's not to claim their land but to remove a leader that doesn't play by international rules and replace him with peaceful leaders. If America did exactly what Russia is doing to Ukraine, America would receive much more criticism than Russia because we are held to higher standards. Russia is held to much lower standards and that is why many are not surprised on what they're doing now.


I find it very tragic that NATO and the USA are apparently going to do next to nothing if an invasion happens.  I guess the only hope is that Mr. Putin will not go through with it because he's got to know the next level of sanctions will likely cause a total collapse of his economy.  Will even this possibility stop him?  Will Poroshenko offer him some sort of a deal that makes him happy?  Stay tuned for "As the worm turns".



I'm sure EU and America has talked to Poroshenko behind closed doors about letting Crimea go and holding elections in East Ukraine that Russia can rig to peacefully give half Ukraine to Russia. It would be political suicide for Poroshenko and the Rada to do that but that is better than losing everything.


Poroshenko shouldn't believe he should receive help for free. If he were wise, he would tell America that there are hundreds of billions to trillions of dollars of natural resources off the coast of Crimea and he will handsomely pay America if we came to the rescue. America doesn't have a bond with Ukraine as we do with Canada and the UK. We weren't major trading partners and we never connected with their corrupt government. There are good people in Ukraine who are like us and deserve help. America shouldn't spill their blood for free though. If Ukrainians want something, they have to learn to give something.


I suspect Poroshenko already offered something when he came to America to give a speech in front of Congress. Congress in returned approved $350 million worth of help. Still not enough to beat Russia and still not something Obama is willing to act on. Poroshenko needs to go back and beg/negotiate some more.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 31, 2015, 11:53:45 AM

Russia today was similar to America a couple hundred years ago. Blah blah blah



That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard. Russia is like colonial America? Are you dumb?
Please look at the background of both.
A land grab to justify your rationale? DUH!


And if we invade a country is to kick out a baddie and we don't want anything from that?
Jesus H Christ. You are blind also.


I'm sure EU and America has talked to Poroshenko blah blah blah


Contradicting yourself about the holiness of the US cause?


Yikes
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 31, 2015, 12:15:16 PM

Russia is like colonial America? Are you dumb?
Please look at the background of both.



Are you dumb? Colonial America is approximately from 1492-1763, not the couple of hundred of years ago I'm referring to.


That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard.



Everyday someone seems to shock you with the most idiotic thing you've ever heard. Figure out where the malfunction is.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 31, 2015, 12:28:37 PM


Good to know you learned something new today Muhz. Now you understand I'm referring to how America, as a young nation, behaved, not how the colonies in the Americas behaved. BTW, Americans then supported growth as do the Russians today.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 31, 2015, 12:42:33 PM

Good to know you learned something new today Muhz. Now you understand I'm referring to how America, as a young nation, behaved, not how the colonies in the Americas behaved. BTW, Americans then supported growth as do the Russians today.


Dude, who lived in America in 1492?


Also, what was one of the main reasons the colonies circa (I hope you know this word) 1772 decided for a separation from the crown? Taxes don't count, everybody knows that one.


Bet you don't know.


And I was NOT born here. Shame on you.


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/leaving_zpsd62a855f.gif)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 31, 2015, 12:58:26 PM
Boe, see what I mean?


They hide when they have to provide facts.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 31, 2015, 01:04:09 PM
Dude, who lived in America in 1492?



Don't agree? Register your complaint with Americaslibrary.gov who's Colonial America timeline starts in 1492. Go and tell them they wrote the most idiotic thing you've ever read.


http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/colonial/jb_colonial_subj.html




They hide when they have to provide facts.  :rolleyes:



Replying 20 minutes after your post is considered hiding? I've got other things to do besides providing facts for people. Google makes fact finding easy when I do get around to it. Gives me answers in seconds.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 31, 2015, 01:12:00 PM

Don't agree? Register your complaint with Americaslibrary.gov who's Colonial America timeline starts in 1492. Go and tell them they wrote the most idiotic thing you've ever read.


http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/colonial/jb_colonial_subj.html (http://www.americaslibrary.gov/jb/colonial/jb_colonial_subj.html)




Replying 20 minutes after your post is considered hiding? I've got other things to do besides providing facts for people. Google makes fact finding easy when I do get around to it. Gives me answers in seconds.


It took you 20 minutes to google that. Wow!


Still you didn't answer my questions.


But, I'll be nice to you.


Columbus landed in the Bahamas in 1492. NO European was in America in 1492.


And the other question what was one of the reasons for the revolution?


Click on this http://lmgtfy.com/?q=america+colonial+wanted+westward+expansion+but+the+king+did+not+allow


and go to the first link.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 31, 2015, 01:14:27 PM
I just clicked on your link.


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/Jake-GyllenhaalLaughing_zpsmcgom8ko.gif)


You didn't even read the damn thing. All you saw was a misleading heading.


Man, sad.


No wonder the Europeans think that Americans are dumb.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 31, 2015, 02:45:01 PM
Quote
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this little article over at the Huffington Post that I agreed with.  Some of the statements I strongly agree with, like this one:


The exercise of restraint in the aftermath of the military intervention in South Ossetia in 2008, as Putin did not extend military efforts to the entire Caucasus, indicates that the Kremlin is careful not to conflate a pro-Russian alignment with a desire to unite with Russia. The economic costs and geopolitical fallout of enforcing a Russian occupation on a population that does not desire it, explicitly contradicts Putin's strategic interests, which have been defined by a defensive desire to protect his sphere of influence from what he perceives to be aggressive NATO encroachment.

FT, if you ever wish to know, and not have to guess and grasp, about this region, I'd be happy to teach you. Hell, I'll teach the person who wrote that article, too.

Restraint? Oh dear, where to begin...

Mr. Putin fully intended to install a friendly government in Tbilisi. I'm guessing that you've never been there either, right?

So, what stopped him? Hmm, lets retrace some steps. Three days prior to the outbreak of war, the Russian Foreign Ministry invited foreign and domestic journalists to travel to the border with the idea that the press would see military exercises. Russia already had troops inside Georgia, and refused to remove them over the protests of the Georgian government.

There had been skirmishes back and forth, but on August 8 full hostilities broke out. At first Russia claimed that Georgia started the conflict. Since then however, not only Generals in the Russian Army, but even President Putin himself, have claimed credit for invading. On television, Mr. Putin claimed that preemptive force was necessary because his intelligence services revealed that Tbilisi was transporting trained terrorists to, and training them in, Abkhazia, one of the disputed Georgian provinces. Putin contended that Georgia planned to use terrorists to disrupt construction of Olympic facilities, and then later the Olympics themselves.

Russia quickly overran Georgian forces and were ready to advance on the capital when several events took place:

President Sarkozy of France flew to Moscow for an emergency meeting. On August 12, then-president Medvedev informed Sarkozy that Moscow intended to press Georgia for a full surrender under Russian terms. Those terms included a new government chosen by Moscow. Medvedev told Sarkozy that when it came to the Georgian government, "we intend to perform surgery." He informed Sarkozy that Russian troops would remain in Georgia afterwards to assure peace.

Sarkozy then asked for a conference call with Medvedev, himself, and Javier Solana, who was the EU foreign policy chief at the time. During those meetings, Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov informed Medvedev that the US State Department, on a direct order from then-president George W Bush, was landing humanitarian aid at the Tbilisi airport. The US planes were clearly marked military transport planes and the State Department had informed Lavrov that an attack on those planes would be considered a direct attack on the USA. The US invited Russian observers to be present when the planes were offloaded and assured Russia that the shipments would be entirely humanitarian, not military, in nature. Meanwhile a US Navy battle group was making its way via the Black Sea to Georgian ports.

Furious, but in a corner, Lavrov told Medvedev to make a deal with Sarkozy. Russia pulled its advancing operations back from Tbilisi.

There were some wrinkles in the following days, including the fact that Russia continued to bomb the Georgian city of Gori for several days after signing a peace treaty. That continued air bombing cost additional civilian lives, including a Dutch TV journalist who was killed.

Some facts that correct the Huffington post article:

- South Ossetia and Abkhazia are both dirt poor regions. They add nothing, zilch, to the Russian economy and in fact, Russia supplies financial and economic aid.
- Abkhazia is majority Muslim, most residents never wanted to be a part of white ethnic Russia. The only reason most of the residents have Russian passports is that leading up to the war, Russia passed them out like candy.
- South Ossetians on the other hand are mostly Orthodox and have ties to their Russian neighbor, North Ossetia. Following the breakup of the Soviet Union, most had only Georgian passports, but like in Abkhazia, those were handed out like candy prior to the outbreak of war.
- South Ossetia would indeed like to become a part of Russia, but they have little to offer except poverty and an additional burden to the RF social welfare system. Therefore, Moscow has ignored their desire for annexation.
- Late last year Russia announced that the Russia was integrating the small Abkhazian Army into the Russian Army. No annexation, because Abkhazia has nothing of value to offer, but it legitimizes the long term presence of Russian troops inside Abkhazia.
- Why Russia would rush in to pull them out of Georgia, yet leave them in limbo is easy to understand: Georgia had signaled that it wanted to join NATO, and Russia had warned Tbilisi what would happen if they continued the process. Tbilisi miscalculated and thought that Russia was bluffing. Moscow doesn't believe in bluffs.

So much for Mr. Putin practicing "restraint."

I understand that you will wish to respond that the article accurately reflected your opinion, and that my opinion is inaccurate. So, lets cut to the chase: what I have listed above is not conjecture, nor opinion. Those are easily researched FACTS.

You seem to specialize in what we in Russia call фигня.

Now, FT, I am going to surprise and/or shock you, because while the above are indeed FACTS, as opposed to фигня, I SUPPORT INDEPENDENCE for both Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Why do I support their independence? For the same basic reason that I support Chechen, Dagestani, and Ingush independence. Chechnya, Dagestan, and the Republic of Ingushetia, are enslaved holdovers from Imperial Russia, and then Soviet Communism. That entire Caucasus mountains region historically has been made up of small independent kingdoms with their own unique languages and native cultures. Only when the Tsars felt the need to conquer more territory were those people groups forcibly annexed into the Russian kingdom.

When the Soviet Union fell (Putin's "greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century"), the Chechen people, the Dagestani people, and the Ingush people, have voted overwhelmingly in referendums to be independent from Russia. Russia has fought two wars to force them to stay. (Wait! Doesn't the Kremlin like referendums?!)

FT, if you truly have a sense of fair play, then join in calls for Mr. Putin to allow the direct election of governors in the Caucasus republics. Following Beslan, Mr. Putin overrode the RF Constitution and decreed that he would handpick all of Russia's 83 governors. In 2013 he restored the Constitutional right to most republics, although the Kremlin can veto a candidate from appearing on the ballot. In the Caucasus however, he still appoints governors.

Gullible? Yes, you are. Not from a lack of intelligence, but from ignorance of the region, and shortfall in common logic. I am beginning to realize that by the time we complete debating, you'll have learned a lot. Just think of me as your professor.

BTW, the first tuition bill is due. I don't make student loans, so haul out that checkbook and start writing.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 31, 2015, 02:47:33 PM
I just clicked on your link.

You didn't even read the damn thing. All you saw was a misleading heading.




Colonial America (1492-1763) What's so hard to understand about that? There's also a picture of a timeline that says the same thing for those who have reading comprehension problems. Like I said before, register your complaint with them if you don't like what you're reading.


No wonder the Europeans think that Americans are dumb.



Don't be so hard on yourself. If you didn't follow me around on the forum and try so hard to prove me wrong at every turn, you'd look a lot smarter than you are now. You're probably a Patriots fan? Go Seahawks!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on January 31, 2015, 05:01:36 PM

Colonial America (1492-1763) What's so hard to understand about that? There's also a picture of a timeline that says the same thing for those who have reading comprehension problems. Like I said before, register your complaint with them if you don't like what you're reading.



Farging hilarious. I almost choked on my drink.


So, you need pictures because the book has too many words?


Don't be so hard on yourself. If you didn't follow me around on the forum and try so hard to prove me wrong at every turn, you'd look a lot smarter than you are now. You're probably a Patriots fan? Go Seahawks!


I love you Billy. You think the world of yourself. Nothing wrong with that.


Thanks for the laugh.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on January 31, 2015, 05:38:02 PM
That was an interesting post Mendeleyev,  if what you say is entirely accurate it would appear the Huffington Post could use a more informed writer....I get that there are different commentaries about why a nation stopped doing x, y and z and it is nice to hear yours....Here in the US, we could have one event occur and 40 different versions will appear.    I may be ready you wrong, but it seems you are convinced it was US pressure (the moving battle group) that stopped Russian progress...although G. Bush had stated their would be no military provocation.   That doesn't seemed to have worked in this case in Ukraine.  So the battle rages on. 




I appreciate all the background information you provided and will have to repay you by presenting more fodder at some point soon...my checking account is overdrawn at this time.  :D


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on January 31, 2015, 06:13:12 PM
Everyday someone seems to shock you with the most idiotic thing you've ever heard. Figure out where the malfunction is.

 :ROFL:

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on January 31, 2015, 08:12:26 PM
Quote
I may be ready you wrong, but it seems you are convinced it was US pressure (the moving battle group) that stopped Russian progress...although G. Bush had stated their would be no military provocation.

FT, like you I understand that Bush had said the US would not engage in battle. The Naval battle group was there for moral support, to rattle a few sabres in the direction of the Kremlin, and to show Georgians that they had not been forgotten.

What did worry the Russians were the military transport planes coming in with humanitarian aid. Russia was at that time in no position to engage the US. Their bombing raids of towns (plenty of civilian casualities) were getting closer and closer to the capital. The threat that a hit on one of those planes would be treated as an act of war did resonate inside those Kremlin walls.

Putin used that tactic himself this past summer with his own "humanitarian" convoy into Ukraine. He gave Poroshenko the same message; an attack on the convoy would be seen as an attack on Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on January 31, 2015, 09:02:25 PM
Bush is also not afraid to go to war under certain conditions and I think Putin understood that. Mendy has a point if Russia shot down US military planes, that can change the ballgame.


Putin also respects Bush and his father. Putin send a birthday present to Sr. Bush last year. Putin does not see Obama as a strong leader and thus does not respect him. Bush was also better than Obama when dealing with Putin. Some people say they had a bromance.


Bromance (http://www.buzzfeed.com/bennyjohnson/the-26-biggest-bromance-moments-between-george-w-bush-and-vl#.qaNyzd75Xq)


In other news, Putin give the military 50 nukes to play with.


Just Nuke the West (http://news.yahoo.com/russian-military-50-intercontinental-missiles-162202378.html)
Title: Russian Think Tank That Pushed for Invasion of Ukraine Wants Moscow to Overthrow
Post by: Muzh on February 02, 2015, 09:57:38 AM
Quote
Analysts at the Russian Institute for Strategic Research (RISI), a Moscow-based think tank that pushed hard for Russia to invade Ukraine, are now urging Moscow to overthrow Belarusian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka.


Quote
as has historically been the case with most Russian leaders, Putin appears to be attracted by grandiose plans—by a picture of the world in which he plays a central and transforming role. More than any other of those supposedly close to him, RISI and Reshetnikov provide the Kremlin leader with exactly that kind of image of the world and one that may be increasingly pleasant for him because it does not have the downsides of other proposed systems like Eurasianism. The latter, for example, would specifically involve making Russia part of something larger and less ethnically defined, consequently breaking it from its single historical course. What RISI is offering, if Sytin’s assertions are correct, is a set of views in which Putin can have his cake and eat it, too.


http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=43458&cHash=7a202945ac364185e5021fc5dbf28fde#.VM-qP53F_mf
Title: Re: Russian Think Tank That Pushed for Invasion of Ukraine Wants Moscow to Overthrow
Post by: calmissile on February 02, 2015, 12:11:21 PM


http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=43458&cHash=7a202945ac364185e5021fc5dbf28fde#.VM-qP53F_mf

Thanks for posting.  It does not surprise me a bit.  While Europe sleeps away, Putin will be making advances on other countries and their leaders.  If he can invade and take Crimea with no response from the West, he certainly can take other countries when the opportunity arises. He knows he has 2 years before the US can replace it's ineffective president.  This is a lot of time to create mischief.   
Title: Re: Russian Think Tank That Pushed for Invasion of Ukraine Wants Moscow to Overthrow
Post by: Gator on February 02, 2015, 12:27:32 PM
IIRC from reading reports, the Belarus economy fared almost as poorly as the Ukrainian economy over the past 25 years of independence.  Certainly not matching Russia's economy and not doing as well as neighboring Poland's. 

Thus, the Belarusian people may see Putin as a white knight.  Is not Lukashenko recognized as Europe's last dictator, prompting him to say ""Better to be a dictator than gay."  Why would Putin wish to overthrow a fellow homophobe?

Dictators such as Lukashenko do not step down without blood letting.
Title: Re: Russian Think Tank That Pushed for Invasion of Ukraine Wants Moscow to Overthrow
Post by: Hammer2722 on February 02, 2015, 01:32:47 PM
IIRC from reading reports, the Belarus economy fared almost as poorly as the Ukrainian economy over the past 25 years of independence.  Certainly not matching Russia's economy and not doing as well as neighboring Poland's. 

Thus, the Belarusian people may see Putin as a white knight.  Is not Lukashenko recognized as Europe's last dictator, prompting him to say ""Better to be a dictator than gay."  Why would Putin wish to overthrow a fellow homophobe?

Not likely, my girl says all her friends and family in Belarus trust Putin as far as they can throw him.
Title: Re: Russian Think Tank That Pushed for Invasion of Ukraine Wants Moscow to Overthrow
Post by: Gator on February 02, 2015, 02:21:17 PM
Not likely, my girl says all her friends and family in Belarus trust Putin as far as they can throw him.

Good!  Lukashenko may be a dirt bag, but he is their dirt bag. :D 

To think that many of us, including me, complain about Obama and Congress.  Count our blessings and hope Obama and Congress can make some headway together. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 02, 2015, 02:50:13 PM
Luka is worried, and for good reason. The last several meetings of Putin and Lukashenko have been lukewarm at best--their body language is very foreboding.

At first I pegged the new laws passed in Belarus as a way to side step the upcoming elections, however I have come to regard Jamestown with very high respect. I also know of several of the Kremlin players mentioned, and if events start to happen in Belarus as the elections draw near, that will only affirm what this report says.

Lukashenko has begun to lean West more and more, a slow but steady change in course. That has indeed angered Putin, and on the long-range scale it also threatens the success of the Eurasian Union.

Lukashenko's views on the invasion of Ukraine, and the fact that he has hosted some of the international summits on the subject in Minsk, has placed a great distance between the two and Mr. Putin apparently feels that Luka is pandering to the West.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on February 03, 2015, 10:57:58 AM
Lukashenko has been sort of a nice surprise in the last year. I think part of the motivation is to keep control of Belarus and not allow it to become another state of Putin. He seems to be a lot less of a puppet than Yanukovych was.

The Minsk agreement. That's the key now. Ukraine and the West should insist on keeping the dividing line in place. Draw a line in the sand. Make it clear to Putin that Ukraine will not allow separatist to expand beyond the line drawn by the Minsk agreement. By saying that, it will make it clear that all military actions by Ukraine and the West have the goal of containment, a defensive posture that will counter any expansion by the Russian/Separatists. Along with that directive, work on securing another cease-fire. Talking about maintaining that dividing line will create a clarification that will be hard for Putin and Lavrov to disregard, rhetorically and physically. The West and Ukrainians need to be clear and firm about this.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 03, 2015, 01:22:32 PM
I would agree, PhotoGuy. Putin will expand as far as the West allows.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on February 03, 2015, 03:40:59 PM
Hello? What do Lavrov and Putin think of this?:
  '...DEBALTSEVE, Ukraine – Kremlin-backed separatists set about reducing the Ukrainian-held Debaltseve to rubble on Feb. 3, despite a promised cease-fire and the presence of several thousand civilians in the Donetsk Oblast city...'
the article:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/kremlin-backed-separatists-look-to-level-debaltseve-379386.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on February 03, 2015, 06:53:35 PM
Hello? What do Lavrov and Putin think of this?


Probably something like: "Gee, that's tough shitsky comrade"




Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 03, 2015, 06:57:34 PM
What is "shitsky"?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on February 03, 2015, 10:19:48 PM
I just happened to be browsing the internet this evening and ran across this opinion piece on CNN.  BASED ON THIS ARTICLE, I think if it were possible to negotiate a truce I'd just let go of the Eastern Reaches completely and keep them out of Ukraine altogether...might be the best of bad options.  The question I'd have is just how much will Russia live with, and let us live with!   Well anyway here is the article:


http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/opinion/aron-putin-endgame/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/opinion/aron-putin-endgame/index.html)




Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 04, 2015, 01:49:30 AM
The article essentially says what I believe: Putin MUST control Ukraine, at all costs. There is no option of giving him a little to make him go away. Look at his track record in South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria. Sure, he'd agree to a sliver if it means that the West walks away and eases sanctions, but make no mistake about it--he MUST have the whole all of wax. The Eurasian Union, his economic ace, cannot, simply cannot, in any form or fashion, survive without Ukraine.

Giving away a piece now is like giving the school ground bully your celery and cucumber slices in the vain hope that he will not take your double cheeseburger.

As the article states clearly, the West must grow some backbone, and keep up or even intensify the pressure.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on February 04, 2015, 03:41:06 AM
What is "shitsky"?


Apparently the Russian version of this:


http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tough+shit
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 04, 2015, 05:05:26 AM

 As the article states clearly, the West must grow some backbone, and keep up or even intensify the pressure.
BTW, Germany, Hungary   and other countries don't want to supply Ukraine with weapon just because EU doesn't want any more pressure.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on February 04, 2015, 08:15:06 AM
BTW, Germany, Hungary   and other countries don't want to supply Ukraine with weapon just because EU doesn't want any more pressure.


No.  Germany doesn't want to because they believe there must be a diplomatic solution to this issue.  However, there won't be a diplomatic solution when one side (Putin) is lying to negotiators.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 04, 2015, 09:23:55 AM

No.  Germany doesn't want to because they believe there must be a diplomatic solution to this issue.  However, there won't be a diplomatic solution when one side (Putin) is lying to negotiators.
My dear, I quoted Merkel.- just didn't have time in the morning to find the link (had to go to work)))
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on February 04, 2015, 10:34:40 AM
My dear, I quoted Merkel.- just didn't have time in the morning to find the link (had to go to work)))

Part of what you quoted is correct, part incorrect.  Merkel is trying to prevent escalation of European bloodshed .   She and the Hungarian president met Monday and both agreed that "...economic sanctions imposed against Russia for its alleged meddling in Ukrainian affairs remained an essential pillar of Europe’s united front."   

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/2/2/merkel-seeks-to-wrest-hungary-from-russian-orbit.html

OTOH, some in Europe believe  Merkel is "dead wrong" for taking the military option off the table. 

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/merkel-dead-wrong-ukraine-311800
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 04, 2015, 11:04:54 AM
Ok, so Germany and Hungary which IS EU (this is what I posted)
What's the problem with Boe? :D
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on February 04, 2015, 11:11:44 AM
The Budapest Memorandum has been trashed by Russia. Ukraine's eastern border is not secure. It's sovereignty is under attack.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on February 04, 2015, 11:25:46 AM
Germany will publically state they are not supplying lethal aid. They do this to avoid lingering accusations of imperialism. However, if they're so inclined to supply weapons they'll find a way as they did with Croatia in the early 90's.

I'd think they'd go through a third party in this regard. Merkel keeping Germany's diplomatic options open is actually not a bad idea as Putin still talks to Merkel. This will provide Putin with an out when his military house of cards crumbles.

I note that Merkel will be in Canada next week discussing a wide range of issues including Ukraine. Depending on whether or not the U.S. decides to supply weaponry my guess would be Canada and Germany might enter into some sort of third party arrangement. It won't be written that way but that'll be the end result. ;)

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on February 04, 2015, 11:30:19 AM
While your points are well noted, Brass,

I actually saw Germany's response as a political response due to domestic politics and the need to keep the government on the same page as the people.  There is not widespread support for military support or involvement in Germany.

Having said that, I agree that Merkel is the carrot, having said so above.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on February 04, 2015, 11:33:28 AM


OTOH, some in Europe believe  Merkel is "dead wrong" for taking the military option off the table. 

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/merkel-dead-wrong-ukraine-311800


Months ago I read Merkel took military options off the table too. As Putin moves more into Ukraine, Obama will eventually change his stance and supply weapons and will have to pressure Europe to stand united on a military option just as he had to pressure them to apply sanctions last year. If it weren't for America pushing, the EU would do nothing. If the West supplies Ukraine with weapons, they must do it fast and not be conservative about it. Putin may try a full invasion to get this over with before Ukraine gets too many weapons in their hands.


In other news, Putin is trying to get friendly with Greece, a NATO member. When he sees cracks in the organization, he will exploit.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on February 04, 2015, 11:34:57 AM
Ok, so Germany and Hungary which IS EU (this is what I posted)
What's the problem with Boe? :D

Boe needs to speak for herself, yet I agree with Boe's point:   a diplomatic solution is not possible because Putin will not negotiate in good faith.    In fact, this has already been attempted and it failed.


When Russia grabbed Crimea, Ukraine tried to seek a diplomatic solution, i. e., Merkel's way.    Diplomacy got no where.   The same is happening for eastern Ukraine.   

In fact, not coming close to a diplomatic solution in Crimea encouraged the rebels in eastern Ukraine to make their move.

I disagree with your statement that the EU wants a diplomatic solution to avoid pressure. 

I believe Merkel's reason is not "pressure" but knowing Putin is a SOB, would never back down if NATO supplied weapons,  and instead escalate to the point of a real war.   

Doll, what do you expect will be the final outcome in Ukraine?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on February 04, 2015, 11:36:34 AM
While your points are well noted, Brass,

I actually saw Germany's response as a political response due to domestic politics and the need to keep the government on the same page as the people.  There is not widespread support for military support or involvement in Germany.

Having said that, I agree that Merkel is the carrot, having said so above.

I agree with you Jone. The German population itself has a lingering collective guilt regarding WW2. Just about all their domestic and foreign diplomacy reflects that to some degree. There is an almost ingrained avoidance of giving any country the ability to criticize them as being militaristic.

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on February 04, 2015, 11:39:02 AM
Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 :devilish:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on February 04, 2015, 11:44:00 AM

Months ago I read Merkel took military options off the table too. As Putin moves more into Ukraine, Obama will eventually change his stance and supply weapons and will have to pressure Europe to stand united on a military option just as he had to pressure them to apply sanctions last year. If it weren't for America pushing, the EU would do nothing. If the West supplies Ukraine with weapons, they must do it fast and not be conservative about it. Putin may try a full invasion to get this over with before Ukraine gets too many weapons in their hands.


In other news, Putin is trying to get friendly with Greece, a NATO member. When he sees cracks in the organization, he will exploit.

I posted months ago the U.S. is the key. As the leader of the free world, if Obama gives the O.K., the rest will follow and the floodgates will open.

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 04, 2015, 11:46:17 AM
Boe needs to speak for herself, yet I agree with Boe's point:   a diplomatic solution is not possible because Putin will not negotiate in good faith.    In fact, this has already been attempted and it failed.


 
I didn't ask for HER opinion- Read my post please.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on February 04, 2015, 12:03:24 PM
Whether or not you asked for my opinion is irrelevant.  Your point was not supplying weapons was due to the EU not wanting "pressure".  That is not the reason.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 04, 2015, 12:33:27 PM
I posted months ago the U.S. is the key. As the leader of the free world, if Obama gives the O.K., the rest will follow and the floodgates will open.

This is the key.  Without a strong POTUS Ukraine will likely fall.  The USA is focused on ISIS.  I really wouldn't be surprised if somehow Putler is supplying ISIS through a 3rd party.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on February 04, 2015, 01:47:55 PM
Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 :devilish:

I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on February 04, 2015, 02:03:32 PM
Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 :devilish:

I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 04, 2015, 02:27:40 PM
I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.

 Bang flop,  DRT
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on February 04, 2015, 03:31:16 PM
Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 :devilish:
Or Brit Challengers?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on February 04, 2015, 05:01:09 PM
I'm shaking my head. Read this article (it's worth the time).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-government-propaganda-stokes-anti-west-sentiment-1.2944274

Now watch how a U.S. commercial is altered...

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2651997771/

This is but one example and the Russian people are being subjected to it 24/7.

When the time comes I hope the Allies don't let the criminals responsible for perpetrating this kind of subversive activity on their own people slip through the cracks. They need to be hunted down and held responsible for their actions as any of the other Russian war criminals would/will be.

Brass

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on February 04, 2015, 05:21:13 PM
I'm shaking my head. Read this article (it's worth the time).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-government-propaganda-stokes-anti-west-sentiment-1.2944274

Now watch how a U.S. commercial is altered...

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2651997771/

This is but one example and the Russian people are being subjected to it 24/7.

When the time comes I hope the Allies don't let the criminals responsible for perpetrating this kind of subversive activity on their own people slip through the cracks. They need to be hunted down and held responsible for their actions as any of the other Russian war criminals would/will be.

Brass

That is just disgusting.  It's a shame that Fat Head won't be able to take legal action because whoever made the alterations will officially be some completely unknown cyber geek living in Nowherecaniskibecauseitstoocoldgorod, northern Siberia - and he doesn't have a phone.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 04, 2015, 05:23:23 PM
The problem is that the directed at audience will lap this nasty ad up like a dog and vomit.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 04, 2015, 06:09:06 PM
Diagnosis: A Great Big LIAR

30.01.2015 | 15:20

Konstantin Goncharov


UNIAN asked a group of psychiatrists and psychologists to diagnose serial fibber Vladimir Putin. The result - he’s a liar all right, but there’s method to his deceit.

"Putin likes Goebbels, and he’s never hidden the fact, calling him a very talented man. In my opinion, Putin is not a smart man, really. If he were smarter, he would behave smarter,” says Gluzman.

Nevertheless, he thinks that when speaking of the “NATO legion” fighting in Ukraine, the Russian President expects only his people to believe this. “Rather, 80% [of the population], his supporters,” Gluzman believes.

Moreover, the psychiatrist is positive that soon the Russian leader will start voicing more primitive messages.
Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/politics/1038364-diagnosis-a-great-big-liar.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on February 04, 2015, 06:20:28 PM
Can anyone put in layman's terms what Asperger's Syndrome is?

http://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/563053898135797763
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 04, 2015, 06:27:50 PM
Sure!
 It means he nuts..  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on February 04, 2015, 06:58:20 PM
Brass, Incredible!  The sad part is that most of Russia believes it. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on February 04, 2015, 07:13:48 PM
Can anyone put in layman's terms what Asperger's Syndrome is?

http://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/563053898135797763

Found an article in USA with more info...

Pentagon 2008 study claims Putin has Asperger's syndrome

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/02/04/putin-aspergers-syndrome-study-pentagon/22855927/

 Basing a diagnosis on behavioral indicators without physical examination is a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

IMO He exhibits behavior consistent with his past and present environment meaning he came up through the ranks of the KGB and Russian political arena with the normal occupational hazards associated with same.

So, paranoid? You bet. Control freak? Definitely.  Aspergers? Would need to be confirmed with standard tests before I'd be on board with that one.

Brass
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Taz on February 04, 2015, 07:27:09 PM
I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.


I can tell you it will cut through them like a hot knife through butter. Of any weapon out there, the main gun is closest I've ever seen to something like a laser. OMG it is just amazing how it carves things up. The GAU-8 main gun is something you WANT to hear when on the ground if you are on our side. Not something the Republican Guard sitting in a T72 wanted to hear for sure.


We'd only get about 18 seconds of fire from it. Typically we'd shoot 2 round bursts. With that rate of fire it would be about 110-130 rounds or so. But man what you could do with a 2 second burst. Talk about lighting something up. I am starting to get nostalgic. I say lets turn a few of these over to Ukraine since the government wants to phase them out now. Let them go out with a bang! I'd train them for free.


It may not be fast, or pretty, but it is amazing at what it does. The Hog can get shot to hell and still fly.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 04, 2015, 08:32:41 PM
I'm shaking my head. Read this article (it's worth the time).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-government-propaganda-stokes-anti-west-sentiment-1.2944274

Now watch how a U.S. commercial is altered...

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2651997771/

This is but one example and the Russian people are being subjected to it 24/7.

When the time comes I hope the Allies don't let the criminals responsible for perpetrating this kind of subversive activity on their own people slip through the cracks. They need to be hunted down and held responsible for their actions as any of the other Russian war criminals would/will be.

Brass

Good post.  I think it's incredibly ironic that Russians are being taught such a convoluted interpretation of "morality" by one of the most dishonest criminal thief's in the World.

As far as what this lady says: 
(Daria Aslamova, special correspondent for Russian paper Komsomolskaya Pravda)

"They [the West] want to crush us to get our resources and divide our country into little bits," she says, "just take our gas, our oil, our water. It’s a big country full of fantastic riches."


I never used to feel that way about Russia but I do now.  I hope when the West is almost done kicking Putin and his sub-par Army back to Moscow that we extract war reparations from these skunks just like was done to Germany to the point that they are so humiliated that they never start another war again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 04, 2015, 08:43:45 PM
Can anyone put in layman's terms what Asperger's Syndrome is?

http://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/563053898135797763

Does Putin have Aspergers?  Does it matter?  Maybe.  More likely he just suffers from an inferiority complex.  He's short, he's got small hands, small feet and a small di*&.  His astronomical ego seems to be his way of coping.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 07, 2015, 09:01:31 AM
I am not interested in how large Putin's penis is or whether he got enough love from Mom and Dad.  What is important is whether the Western democracies will ban Russia from SWIFT.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 07, 2015, 09:08:20 AM
I am not interested in how large Putin's penis is or whether he got enough love from Mom and Dad.  What is important is whether the Western democracies will ban Russia from SWIFT.

That's next.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 07, 2015, 11:04:46 AM
That's next.

When?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 07, 2015, 12:18:17 PM
IIRC the EU will meet in a couple of weeks and decide about SWIFT and more sanctions.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on February 07, 2015, 04:54:29 PM
IIRC the EU will meet in a couple of weeks and decide about SWIFT and more sanctions.

If Russia is cut off from SWIFT transactions, does this mean we will see a lot of guys on airplanes with briefcases locked to their writsts?    ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 07, 2015, 06:19:29 PM
Nope, The airfare will be too costly. They'll use some of the army surplus store tanks to travel in. :clapping:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 07, 2015, 06:20:23 PM
IIRC the EU will meet in a couple of weeks and decide about SWIFT and more sanctions.

So I see that this must be an urgent matter for the Europeans . . .
Title: Putin's policies - a marketing campaign aimed at not the most intelligent people
Post by: JayH on February 07, 2015, 06:51:47 PM
Another very interesting perspective-- so much is being written and covered now. Many of the comments over the last year are being repeated from many directions-- and many gaps being filled in.
Quoted is a very brief excerpt from the article--

Putin's policies - a marketing campaign aimed at not the most intelligent people.
Больше читайте здесь: http://ru.tsn.ua/analitika/politicheskaya-koka-kola-409164.html

"The Russian leadership has low living standards, corruption and the stories that around one enemy, bringing confidence to the state of panic. Russia is afraid of change, afraid of creating itself anew and to adapt to the realities of the world. That is why the "Russian will never give their leader." The only way of survival for the Russians - nostalgia and indiscriminately transform historical cliches in a sacred relic. In this sense, the main enemy of the government and, in particular, Putin - this development. Putting into practice the "enemy" in the face of Ukraine. It is due to the fact that the Ukrainian people wanted to develop, Russia sends Donbass FSB colonel, volunteers, contractors and Chechens without passports and Stripes. Their mission - to defend Russian-speaking population or annexing new territories, and to destabilize the situation. All these ministers "DNR" and "LC" funny referendums, rant and convoys are needed only to ensure the loyalty of the Russian people through propaganda. Putin does not need any Donbass nor speaking population. Its purpose - to prevent the economic and social growth at least in some of the countries of the former Soviet Union. After all, when people live well somewhere overseas, then for 70 percent of Russians have never traveled abroad, this is akin to a fairy tale, but if the neighbors live better, then president of Russia will face a serious threat: would not have to go into hiding with his vassal Yanukovych"

: http://ru.tsn.ua/analitika/politicheskaya-koka-kola-409164.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 07, 2015, 08:45:28 PM
Jay, that looks like a very good article.  I sure wish you could find it in proper English!  When you read silly comments from posters like Doll that "Russians will eat dirt" there is simply no doubt that Russians are a different bunch then the rest of us and that their propaganda is working.  How anyone would be proud of wanting to basically live in a cave and not advance like the rest of the World is hard to believe, but it is what it is.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 08, 2015, 02:41:34 AM
The pressure has been mounting for some time, but this is a serious notch up.

Russian news agency Vedomosti is reporting that the Communications Ministry will draft legislation that foreign media outlets, and foreign journalists working in Russia, will be subject to the same recently passed laws prohibiting Russian news organizations and blogsites from publishing stories that promote extremism. Under the proposed amendment to registration procedures for foreign media, violating the anti-extremism law would be grounds for denying permission to work in Russia.

An example of "extremism" is publishing or broadcasting a story about Russian forces observed crossing into Ukraine, or interviewing a grieving mother whose son was killed while serving with a Russian unit inside Ukrainian borders.

Anything that does not adhere to the official Kremlin line on any number of subjects can be construed as extremism.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 08, 2015, 07:33:45 AM
Anything that does not adhere to the official Kremlin line on any number of subjects can be construed as extremism.

Like Rain TV?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on February 08, 2015, 08:51:56 AM
IIRC the EU will meet in a couple of weeks and decide about SWIFT and more sanctions.

Banning Russia from SWIFT would be huge.  Of all the sanctions against Iran, banning their banks use of SWIFT hurt the most. 

The effects of a ban are so severe that one would expect Russia to retaliate in a major way.  From Forbes, January 27,  "Russia’s Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said Tuesday that if SWIFT limited Russian banks on its system, Russia’s reaction to the Belgium-based organization’s rules will be 'unlimited'."

"Unlimited" includes reducing if not curtailing gas deliveries to Europe, and that would probably mean the West would do something more.   The world economy could take a hit.  Thus, I doubt Russia will be banned from SWIFT. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 08, 2015, 09:03:31 AM
And for those reasons I wish we would ban them from SWIFT.  We should also freeze Russian assets.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 08, 2015, 09:57:14 AM
Quote
Like Rain TV?

Exactly. They have been forced out of very professional, permanent studios and forced to operate from roving apartments. The government has banned advertising on cable channels (Rain is a cable channel much like CNN, Fox, MSNBC, etc), and so they are having trouble finding funds for staff and expenses.

Also like Echo Radio of Moscow who recently received their first official extremism warning. There will not be a second chance as the new law dictates a "two strikes and you're out" policy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 08, 2015, 10:26:22 AM
An example of "extremism" is publishing or broadcasting a story about Russian forces observed crossing into Ukraine, or interviewing a grieving mother whose son was killed while serving with a Russian unit inside Ukrainian borders.

Anything that does not adhere to the official Kremlin line on any number of subjects can be construed as extremism.

Does this mean that you will be leaving Moscow soon and moving back to the USA?


(No I am not encouraging that one way or another, I just wonder if you are under pressure from the authorities and if they've given you some sort of ultimatum)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on February 08, 2015, 10:43:21 AM
Good article in The Daily Beast about Russian propaganda.  We can see how it works even among some posters here, who have bought the "Ukrainians are fascists" lie hook, line and sinker -


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/08/anti-nazi-group-secretly-helping-kremlin-rebuild-russian-empire.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on February 08, 2015, 11:44:27 AM
The pressure has been mounting for some time, but this is a serious notch up.

Russian news agency Vedomosti is reporting that the Communications Ministry will draft legislation that foreign media outlets, and foreign journalists working in Russia, will be subject to the same recently passed laws prohibiting Russian news organizations and blogsites from publishing stories that promote extremism. Under the proposed amendment to registration procedures for foreign media, violating the anti-extremism law would be grounds for denying permission to work in Russia.

An example of "extremism" is publishing or broadcasting a story about Russian forces observed crossing into Ukraine, or interviewing a grieving mother whose son was killed while serving with a Russian unit inside Ukrainian borders.

Anything that does not adhere to the official Kremlin line on any number of subjects can be construed as extremism.


Putin has to shut up those people who disagree. He has a reputation to protect. He has nothing to hide, just ask him.


In the article below, I read he's also making it harder for people to protest. A Russian can get 5 years in jail for protesting more than once in a period of 180 days.


Arrest that man! He publically voiced his displeasure with Putin TWICE in the past 6 months! (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-latest-kremlin-crackdown-on-opposition-is-unprecedented-in-post-soviet-russian-history-2015-2)


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AC on February 08, 2015, 12:09:31 PM
Good article in The Daily Beast about Russian propaganda.  We can see how it works even among some posters here, who have bought the "Ukrainians are fascists" lie hook, line and sinker -


http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/08/anti-nazi-group-secretly-helping-kremlin-rebuild-russian-empire.html

Nothing surprises me anymore when it comes to Russian propaganda.  Russia complains of US NGO's being in Ukraine and Russia has them all over the place.  Russia complains of alleged US meddling in Maidan and it turns out that the Russian FSB was deeply embedded in the Ukrainian SBU.  It doesn't end.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 08, 2015, 12:16:38 PM

Putin has to shut up those people who disagree. He has a reputation to protect. He has nothing to hide, just ask him.


In the article below, I read he's also making it harder for people to protest. A Russian can get 5 years in jail for protesting more than once in a period of 180 days.


Arrest that man! He publically voiced his displeasure with Putin TWICE in the past 6 months! (http://www.businessinsider.com/the-latest-kremlin-crackdown-on-opposition-is-unprecedented-in-post-soviet-russian-history-2015-2)

The deal was that Russians will go along with Putin so long as he guaranteed them a higher lifestyle.  People on this forum complain of Ukrainian corruption as if the wheels that turn Russia are squeaky clean.  Yet Navalny remains a thorn in his side.  People are brainwashed in Russia that Ukraine invaded Russian by maintaining its borders.  But even among the kool aid drinkers people don't like him.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 08, 2015, 12:25:39 PM
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=L5lqyt_pKsU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdOoQoGvr-U#t=98
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mdOoQoGvr-U
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on February 08, 2015, 12:35:09 PM

From Boe's link:



Quote
WWN has not made a substantial entry yet into the United States, but it isn’t for lack of trying. The few Americans it has been able to attract fit a particular profile: well-intentioned but ill-informed about the subtleties of international politics, as well as C-listers itching to make the VIP table at an AIPAC dinner. At one of the organization’s first events in Moscow in 2010, it hosted a delegation of Jewish New York State Assemblymen. One can imagine these elected officials being approached by a Russian émigré in their district, being asked the question, “Do you support a world without Nazism,” and offered a round-trip ticket to Moscow. They probably didn’t bother to ask many questions.


Does this remind you of some around here?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 08, 2015, 01:41:18 PM
AC, I appreciate your question. But at this time I simply cannot comment.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 08, 2015, 01:48:21 PM
Interesting....just as the EU seems ready to hand Ukraine back to Russia on a platter, there are new reports of "peoples groups" (Russian speaking, naturally) who are organizing movements in Latvia and Lithuania. Hmm, this seems really familiar: claims of not being able to speak their Russian language, oppressed by their governments, and they want to separate. Gosh darn, who would have imagined.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 08, 2015, 02:06:03 PM
Hmmm Deja vu..  :wallbash:  Or like the old Groundhog Day movie.. :rolleyes:


Mendy have you seen this yet?

Now this will make things interesting:

Russia to get naval and air bases in Cyprus

http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-military-agreement-in-cyprus-2015-2

An EU Member State hosting the Russian navy and air force right next to the UK bases.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 08, 2015, 02:11:19 PM
Interesting....just as the EU seems ready to hand Ukraine back to Russia on a platter, there are new reports of "peoples groups" (Russian speaking, naturally) who are organizing movements in Latvia and Lithuania. Hmm, this seems really familiar: claims of not being able to speak their Russian language, oppressed by their governments, and they want to separate. Gosh darn, who would have imagined.

NATO is so full of  . . .

If they were serious about protecting the borders, they wouldn't being playing air police.  They would militarize the border with soldiers permanently stationed there.  Anyone want to bet those planes fall into Russian hands?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 08, 2015, 02:35:15 PM
Interesting....just as the EU seems ready to hand Ukraine back to Russia on a platter, there are new reports of "peoples groups" (Russian speaking, naturally) who are organizing movements in Latvia and Lithuania. Hmm, this seems really familiar: claims of not being able to speak their Russian language, oppressed by their governments, and they want to separate. Gosh darn, who would have imagined.
Ну все правильно- кто-то жаждет крови, и этот "кто-то"- не Россия. И не Европа.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on February 08, 2015, 03:05:22 PM
I can't read this shit.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 08, 2015, 03:08:23 PM
Ну все правильно- кто-то жаждет крови, и этот "кто-то"- не Россия. И не Европа.

Вы написали бред еще раз
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 08, 2015, 03:11:15 PM
Ну все правильно- кто-то жаждет крови, и этот "кто-то"- не Россия. И не Европа.

Wrong again---Russia packs up and gets out of Ukraine---chances are it would end .

That is--apart from a major point--Russia has made an enemy out of Ukraine and Russia & Russians will never be forgiven.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 08, 2015, 04:02:33 PM
Вы написали бред еще раз
Actually, I agreed with Mendy, so бред is his.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 08, 2015, 04:04:02 PM
Wrong again---Russia packs up and gets out of Ukraine---chances are it would end .

That is--apart from a major point--Russia has made an enemy out of Ukraine and Russia & Russians will never be forgiven.
Please read Mendeleyev's post  to which  responded.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 08, 2015, 04:05:56 PM
Actually, I agreed with Mendy,


About Putin starting the war and being a first class huilo?  :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:


 I'm glad you finally admitted it!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on February 08, 2015, 04:48:29 PM
Ну все правильно- кто-то жаждет крови, и этот "кто-то"- не Россия. И не Европа.

Who is it then?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 11, 2015, 05:44:59 PM

It seems everyday that basic freedoms in Russia are being evaporated. Piece by piece they are locking every source of free ideas from being discussed.


The War Against Tor: Russia Takes Aim At Popular Web Anonymizer

MOSCOW -- The Russian authorities apparently have a new enemy in their crosshairs: web tools that give users online anonymity.

On February 5, lawmaker Leonid Levin proposed blocking so-called web anonymizers including the most popular program, called Tor.
 
Tor -- an acronym for "The Onion Router" -- is encryption software that allows users to stealthily surf the Internet and bypass locally-imposed web restrictions.

Levin's proposal won quick backing from Roskomnadzor, Russia's state communications watchdog.

Roskomnadzor's press secretary, Vadim Ampelonsky, derided Tor users as "ghouls" and likened the program to a hangout for criminals. He seconded the call for it to be blocked, saying it is "technically complex, but solvable."
http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-blocking-tor-anonymous-internet/26842171.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 11, 2015, 06:04:43 PM
Next Tor 2.0 ! :D  :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 13, 2015, 11:40:06 PM
Some of the social media stuff is very clever. For the time being, the Mendeleyev Journal has stopped accepting ads from several Russian advertisers. When there is an open position, we post this instead:

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/omnsugz_xrw.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 13, 2015, 11:44:23 PM
 :clapping: Thanks Mendy!  :clapping:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on February 14, 2015, 02:21:03 AM
MissAmeno wrote, way back on April 14th, 2014:

I have grown up in city about 50 miles from Kiev. Regardless what Russian media tries to portray in news these days Kiev and its surrounds never have been anti-Russian. Half of population spoke Russian, another half spoke in something broken between Russian and Ukrainian, very rarely you would come across someone who in day to day life spoke clean Ukrainian language. Never met anyone who strongly disliked Russia and/or its population.

And I do not know no one Ukrainian who wants Ukraine once again be part of Russia. No one! I am not saying there isn't such people but no, they are not majority whatsoever. I do not know either anyone who hates Russia and/or Russians (yet! because many soon will after what Russians do in Ukraine) But I do know those who ready to fight for Ukrainian independence and no, not because they are brainwashed by Ukrainian news but because they do not want to be part of Russia in any form or shape.


Good stuff- a lot of truth there.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 14, 2015, 02:19:37 PM
More and more information keeps coming to fill in the gaps-- I wrote over a year ago that there was over 36000 people employed in Kremlin disinformation industry . Today more details appear of specifics of how so much of that nonsense is used.


A Russian TV Insider Describes a Modern Propaganda Machine


LONDON — NORMALLY a boisterous sort, Peter Pomerantsev says he kept quiet when he found himself, at the age of 24, in a Moscow meeting room listening to 20 of the country’s top media executives discussing the news agenda for the week.

Not what the news was, but what they would make it, said Mr. Pomerantsev, the author of a recent book chronicling the moral and financial corruption of modern-day Moscow and the manipulation of a Russian television industry that he later joined.

He listened in amazement, he says, as a prominent news anchor reviewed the coming events as if they were part of a film script, musing on how best to entertain the audience and questioning who that week’s enemy should be.

“It was shocking,” said Mr. Pomerantsev, speaking over coffee in London last month. “They really saw television and news as a movie, and talked about it as a movie.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/14/world/europe/russian-tv-insider-says-putin-is-running-the-show-in-ukraine.html?_r=0
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 14, 2015, 02:30:15 PM
More background that supports Mendy's Eurasian theory of the causus belli:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCTas3uRBdk
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on February 14, 2015, 07:22:56 PM
Some Russians should be applauded:
http://youtu.be/1oG4hDetw2A
Title: Did anyone see this? Russian student apologizing to Ukraine
Post by: Taz on February 15, 2015, 07:50:01 AM
Apparently there are Russian other than the "Doll" type. While Russia has really shut down on any news against their party line, at least some Russians are smart enough to figure it out despite Putin's propaganda.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gatre-_Vc7g



Title: Re: Did anyone see this? Russian student apologizing to Ukraine
Post by: Taz on February 15, 2015, 08:05:47 AM
Here is another interesting take by a Russian. It is in Russian so if you don't read it, use Google or some other options.


http://professionali.ru/Soobschestva/biznes-klub/prokljataja-amerika/?utm_source=NewTopics&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=13-02-15


I suggest reading the entire thing but here is part of it. The guy does a good job of debunking the US as the "boogey man" that Russia loves to use in straw man arguments.


"Хотят ли США подчинить Европу и дирижировать ею против России? Эта версия, на мой взгляд, также не находит подтверждения. Если стало так уж модно говорить про холодную войну, позволю себе напомнить, что в начале 1980-х годов США держали в Европе 7400 ядерных боеголовок, 9000 танков и почти 350 тысяч военнослужащих. Сегодня ядерный потенциал сокращен более чем на 90%, в 2013 году были выведены последние танковые подразделения, а военный персонал составляет менее 30 тысяч человек. Соединенные Штаты мало что могут диктовать Европе: они проигрывают ей экономически: торговый баланс США с Европейским союзом в 2013 году был отрицателен на $65 млрд; европейцы держат на $1,6 трлн финансовых обязательств правительства США, а не наоборот; европейские антимонопольные органы блокировали и блокируют многие сделки между американскими компаниями – как, например, между GE и Honeywell в 2001 году. И никто в Вашингтоне не смог тогда «скрутить Европу в бараний рог».
Сочиняя сказки о том, что Америка диктует Европе ее позицию в отношении России, кремлевским пропагандистам надо быть более последовательными – хотя бы потому, что они одновременно увлечены рассказами о «слабости» и «геополитической никчемности» Европы. Но если бы США имели право диктата, то европейцы были более военизированными, как в годы холодной войны, когда такое менторство со стороны Америки действительно имело место. Но сейчас европейцы вовсе не воинственны – в том же случае с Украиной они наиболее последовательно выступают против поставок вооружений Киеву. Как увязываются между собой оба этих подхода? Боюсь, никак.
Резкое нарастание ненависти к Америке или Западу в целом – это прежде всего поиск врага, на которого можно переложить ответственность за собственные трудности. Сегодня это особенно нужно Кремлю. В 1998 году можно было списать проблемы на «проклятые 1990-е»; в 2008-м – на мировой кризис, пришедший из той же Америки. В конце 1990-х годов американцы бомбардировали Сербию, в середине 2000-х они же воевали в Афганистане и Ираке. Сегодня все иначе. США фактически прекратили свои масштабные военные операции за рубежом, зато в такие приключения ввязалась Россия. При этом с 2012 года наша экономика даже при успешном развитии мировой показывала устойчивое замедление, пока не свалилась в рецессию. Кто мешал нам «развиваться» в 2010–2013 годах, когда на протяжении четырех лет Россия получила $1,4 трлн нефтегазовых доходов? Уж точно не Америка – ведь если бы Федеральный резерв не проводил пресловутую политику «количественного смягчения», долларов не было бы в таком избытке и нефть не была такой дорогой. Мы сами тормозили собственный экономический рост, ужесточая условия ведения бизнеса и повышая налоги на предпринимателей ради удовлетворения алчности вороватых бюрократов и силовиков. Что мешало нам проводить ответственную экономическую политику? Все, что угодно, но только не Вашингтон или его эмиссары… "
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on February 15, 2015, 12:53:40 PM
http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/08/the-undefeated-before-nadiya-savchenko-dies-read-her-words/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 15, 2015, 01:30:13 PM
Quote
...Russia has really shut down on any news against their party line, at least some Russians are smart enough to figure it out despite Putin's propaganda.

Very true.

There is a social media group called WELCOME TO THE WORLD. It is managed by a group connected to RT. I have been a member as it promotes Russia, Russian culture, and Russian regions.

Over the past months it has adopted a clear format: a genuine look at Russia, which is then followed by a anti-Ukrainian piece related to the war. So, I have continually challenged the editor/moderator who is herself a journalist, albeit a young and inexperienced one--the kind recruited today by RT.

I have been a thorn in her side, pointing out inaccuracies and challenging blatant lies. Yesterday a piece claimed that Poroshenko is a murderer because, according to the group, Ukrainian forces are shelling Debaltseve. That is really, really stupid to put that out in the public, because unless one is a sheltered Russian with no context, it is obvious that the Ukrainians are inside the town, and it is the rebels on the outside who are shelling in order to conquer it.

So, I pointed that out. I included a video, from a rebel TV source, with rebel leaders swearing not to observe a cease fire until the town is taken by rebel forces.

That prompted this message from the editor: "Farewell, Mr .Mendeleev." Dang, does this mean that she won't address me in the first person any longer? After a chuckle over her further comments that the video was, in her learned view, a plant by the CIA, I logged in to the actual site. Or, tried to log in. Access blocked.  :D

No, there is no censorship in Russia. None at all.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 15, 2015, 01:50:31 PM
How the Russian media feeds news of this conflict to its citizens:

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/cartoon-a.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on February 15, 2015, 02:09:47 PM
"Farewell, Mr .Mendeleev."



Russian journalists have unique talents. Catching bullets, falling down stairs and jumping out of windows are some of the things they're good at.  You're a good man but be careful what you say to your colleagues. You probably won't change their minds and most of the time they'll want to censor/shut you up if they have the power or connections to do so. Stay safe Mendy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on February 15, 2015, 02:15:06 PM
According to this article, after Debaltseve is taken, Zakharchenko is planning  to take Mariupol and Kharkov:
Quote
В первую очередь, мы просто уничтожим «Дебальцевский котел» с украинскими военнослужащими, где на данный момент находится от 6 до 8000 человек. Потом мы отразим в противника Мариуполь, а когда это будет сделано, то мы бросим все свои силы на то, чтобы взять Харьков», — заявил лидер ДНР.

http://lentachpost2015.ru/glava-dnr-zaxarchenko-prigrozil-brosit-vse-sily-na-xarkov/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Taz on February 15, 2015, 02:19:36 PM
As I mentioned before, the statistics show that Russia is one of the most dangerous countries to be a journalist in.


I wonder what would happen if Russian tourist in foreign countries started having the same accidents Russian journalists seem to have happen to them. Maybe there would be less Russian tourists.


Reminds me of a joke from the Russian comedian of years ago; Yakov Smirnov. He was talking about the American Express card's tagline,  "Don't leave home without it!" The he said about the Russian Express card's version, "You don't leave home..."


I now wish fewer Russians would leave home at all. Why do they need to go anywhere? They now have Crimea don't they? I would love to see the EU and all English speaking countries stop giving Russians any visas to travel. Then they could have the current equivalent of Yakov's Russian Express card, a Russian passport. A side benefit it is might help the tourism industry that was crushed in Ukraine because of this.


So what if Russia doesn't give any visas out, who would really want to go to that s h   t  hole anyway. I've seen enough stank of its corruption. Leave it to the Russians who love swimming in that cesspool of filth as they kept electing (supposedly) V. V. Putin, aka Putler. Only person I know that is more narcissistic than Obama is Putin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 15, 2015, 02:42:01 PM
According to this article, after Debaltseve is taken, Zakharchenko is planning  to take Mariupol and Kharkov:



That's not what all other sites are reporting. I suspect that since the HTTP address ends with .ru it's yet another lie or propaganda.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 15, 2015, 03:07:31 PM
Тазик, you forgot to send Russians out of the USA. :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 15, 2015, 03:19:46 PM
With a few noted exceptions most are very happy to be out of Russia and safely in a country of freedom.  :crackwhip: :crackwhip: :crackwhip: :crackwhip:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: threeships on February 15, 2015, 04:14:24 PM

 (http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/02/08/
the-undefeated-before-nadiya-savchenko-dies-read-her-words/)

thanks for post Photo Guy...this woman's spirit takes me away
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on February 15, 2015, 04:22:09 PM
With a few noted exceptions most are very happy to be out of Russia and safely in a country of freedom.  :crackwhip: :crackwhip: :crackwhip: :crackwhip:

Doll wants to have her cake and also eat it!

For example the right not to have to eat dirt but also the right to sh*t on the country that has given her a better life.  :wallbash:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on February 15, 2015, 04:50:13 PM

That's not what all other sites are reporting. I suspect that since the HTTP address ends with .ru it's yet another lie or propaganda.

It's on this Ukrainian site too:

http://www.theinsider.ua/rus/politics/54e1053583a16/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 15, 2015, 05:00:56 PM
Doll wants to have her cake and also eat it!

For example the right not to have to eat dirt but also the right to sh*t on the country that has given her a better life.  :wallbash:
My life here is not better
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on February 15, 2015, 05:56:55 PM
My life here is not better

Then why did you move?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 15, 2015, 06:08:59 PM
It's on this Ukrainian site too:

http://www.theinsider.ua/rus/politics/54e1053583a16/

 From the same UA site. They haven't finished their plans..

Terrorists are planning to seize today Debaltseve
At the headquarters of the anti-terrorist operation announced plans militants seize Debaltseve Donetsk region for 15 of February.

"On the operational sources it became known that militants are planning today to capture Debaltseve by settlements and Horlovks Uglegorsk," - said the press center of  ATO in to Facebook.

"The militants were tasked to provoke Ukrainian military and disrupt the peace agreement. To do this, the criminals actually used all kinds of weapons," - added in the department.

http://www.theinsider.ua/rus/politics/54e0ef807dc66/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on February 15, 2015, 06:27:17 PM
Then why did you move?
I answered this question more than once.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on February 15, 2015, 07:18:39 PM
Then why did you move?


 It isn't like she knew how it would be to live in another country until she moved and lived in another country, right?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on February 15, 2015, 08:09:18 PM
Terrorists are planning to seize today Debaltseve


I heard the Donetsk Freedom Fighters are trying to liberate Debaltseve from the knuckle dragging unibrows that live in the trees near Kiev.   :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on February 15, 2015, 08:42:20 PM
They've been trying. So far not enough lead in their collective pencils.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on February 15, 2015, 08:47:21 PM
I answered this question more than once.

To get away from drunken Russian men?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on February 15, 2015, 09:25:54 PM
This is novel.  If you listen to the following report, two of the more outspoken people on Russian TV divide up Ukraine into new countries so that Russia can show its territorial gains as the new Novorussiya. 

The piece is in Russian.

 http://24tv.ua/n543986 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on February 16, 2015, 01:37:16 AM
Thank you, Billy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 16, 2015, 06:27:05 AM

I heard the Donetsk Freedom Fighters are trying to liberate Debaltseve from the knuckle dragging unibrows that live in the trees near Kiev.   :D

Where is Freedom in the pro-Russian agenda?

In other news, Nick Farange will be at CPAC this year.  Ask him what he thinks we should do about Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on February 16, 2015, 10:24:26 AM
Where is Freedom in the pro-Russian agenda?

In other news, Nick Farange will be at CPAC this year.  Ask him what he thinks we should do about Russia.


You are so knave.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 16, 2015, 12:45:04 PM

You are so knave.

Is that an adjective?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knave

Some maybe some ESL classes are in order.

If you did intend to insult me, it is consistent with the Novorossiya intellectual ferocity.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on February 16, 2015, 12:56:46 PM
Is that an adjective?

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knave (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/knave)

Some maybe some ESL classes are in order.

If you did intend to insult me, it is consistent with the Novorossiya intellectual ferocity.


It's not as funny if you have to explain a joke.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: SANDRO43 on February 16, 2015, 03:35:44 PM
You are so knave.
It's not as funny if you have to explain a joke.
Did you mean naive?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 16, 2015, 03:51:48 PM

It's not as funny if you have to explain a joke.

Debate me or insult me, you can't have both.  The question was how are the Russians pro-freedom again?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 16, 2015, 04:30:59 PM
Did you mean naive?

Russian speaking trolls do not know the difference!! :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on February 17, 2015, 11:12:56 AM
Steamer speaks very good English.  He just isn't too sharp in the joke department.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on February 17, 2015, 11:46:56 AM
Did you mean naive?


 :D :D :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on February 17, 2015, 11:50:28 AM
Steamer speaks very good English.  He just isn't too sharp in the joke department.


I'll work on that.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on February 17, 2015, 06:49:39 PM
Steamer speaks very good English.  He just isn't too sharp in the joke department.

No.  Just lazy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on March 04, 2015, 01:36:01 PM
Classic example of how propaganda leads to the desired conclusion. Here is something making the rounds on social media.

This Russian gal is holding a sign (below) that says: USA! Hands off Kievan Rus. Birthplace of freedom, with Putin of course.

Were you to ask, she'd likely tell you that the USA is the only power "meddling" in Ukraine, and that Putin is trying to rescue Russia's Ukrainian "brothers."

The audacity of using "Kievan Rus" is a not so subtle indicator that she, like many others, are believing the Kremlin line that Kiev, and thus Ukraine, is still a part of a greater Russia. Therefore, the Ukrainian people have no right to determine their own destiny without the consent of their bigger brother.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on March 04, 2015, 05:55:48 PM
Just look at the stories at the Russian state news and you'll easily see just what propaganda is all about.
 Take a bit of truth, twist it 180 degrees then falsify everything else.

 Look at the current news headlines there.

http://english.pravda.ru/
Title: Russian journalists have published a complete list of pro-Kremlin trolls
Post by: JayH on March 11, 2015, 02:42:07 AM
Onlythe tip of the iceberg of Kremlin disinformation--better known as Kremlin lies !
size=14pt]Russian journalists have published a complete list of pro-Kremlin trolls in St. Petersburg[/size]

Russian journalists declassified "troll lair" in St. Petersburg that the office in three shifts "hang to deceive" users online publishing pro-government posts and comments. The publication writes  , "Novaya Gazeta" , if earlier political persecution, including the web, simply prevented the opposition to live, but now it has become a real physical threat. Read more: In Stec told Kremlin creates the Russian army of bots on the Internet Journalists managed to read the "temniki" for St. Petersburg trolls and get a list of more than five hundred "network fighters." It is known that almost all bloggers living in St. Petersburg, set up their accounts in 2013. They periodically diluted 'economic positions "their version of political events.
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/rosiyski-zhurnalisti-opublikuvali-povniy-spisok-prokremlivskih-troliv-u-peterburzi-414513.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 12, 2015, 06:03:10 PM
I happened to be browsing about the internet and I found this article.  Apparently two surveys were taken in Crimea.   One was done by a couple professors from the USA, and the other was done by a firm in Germany.  Both surveys found that between 84-85% of the people in Crimea are happy Russia has annexed them. 


Here is the link, so you be the judge.


http://news.yahoo.com/putins-grab-crimea-still-rankles-west-crimeans-164453982.html (http://news.yahoo.com/putins-grab-crimea-still-rankles-west-crimeans-164453982.html)


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2015, 06:19:46 PM
First, no one is going to be honest, given the climate there.  Second, I do believe a majority had a preference for reunification with Russia, however, it is the manner in which it was achieved that was objectionable, and the theft of property that occurred in the process.


Civilized countries (Canada, the UK) have referendums that don't involve invasions, guns, prefilled ballots, or non residents voting.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on March 12, 2015, 07:36:30 PM
Those polls were probably taken while the residents were under gunpoint just like the elections. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 12, 2015, 07:39:20 PM
I think the polls would find a majority wanted to join Russia, even were they fully unbiased and without any threat.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 12, 2015, 09:53:07 PM
The UN Human Rights Commission estimates over a million refugees from the occupied lands.  We know from Katrina, that the poor, old and infirm cannot leave.  Most conscripts reporting for duty do not come form west or central Ukraine but the south and east.  Also some pro-Russian Crimeans express buyer's remorse with Putin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 13, 2015, 01:03:57 PM
Interesting article on the Kremlin trolls -
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/11/leonid-bershidsky-russia-is-hacking-your-social-media-news-feed/ (http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/11/leonid-bershidsky-russia-is-hacking-your-social-media-news-feed/)
Title: Cry, the Beloved Russia I Left Behind
Post by: Muzh on March 14, 2015, 12:00:15 PM
Quote

By the time we left four years later, in 2009, my hope for Russia had been further diminished by the murders of several journalists, including Anna Politkovskaya, an outspoken Putin critic, and by the beating of a friend’s husband, who had founded a group dedicated to government transparency. Back in the West, I watched, this time with horror, as oligarchy and gangsterism took hold.


The Sunday morning after Boris Nemtsov’s murder, I stood at my stove in Madrid cooking blini, thin pancakes that I make almost every weekend to connect my daughter with her Russian heritage. Yet now they have become more than a reminder of times long gone. They make me think of the future. “Russia will always be a dictatorship,” my grandfather had told me. I fear now that he might have been right.


Satan's Bible (http://www.wsj.com/articles/margarita-gokun-silver-cry-the-beloved-russia-i-left-behind-1426285885?cb=logged0.6845194236375391)
Title: The Trolls Who Came In From The Cold
Post by: JayH on March 16, 2015, 03:58:35 PM
Another story on the TROLL factory -  there is a link to the story in Russian !

The Trolls Who Came In From The Cold
ST. PETERSBURG -- Last May, Tatiana N decided she wanted a higher salary than the average journalist can expect.

After responding to an advertisement in the popular HeadHunter job-search website, she became a Kremlin-paid Internet troll. Tatiana -- who, like others interviewed for this story, asked that her last name not be used -- worked out of a 2,500-square-meter warehouse in the suburbs of St. Petersburg.

The job paid 40,000 rubles a month, significantly more than the 25,000-30,000 most journalists make. But it came, she said, "with pain."

Tatiana joined a round-the-clock operation in which an army of trolls disseminated pro-Kremlin and anti-Western talking points on blogs and in the comments sections of news websites in Russia and abroad.


http://www.rferl.org/content/russia-trolls-headquarters-media-internet-insider-account/26904157.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 16, 2015, 05:29:13 PM
Good article on Russia's long term plan to dismantle Ukraine -

Quote
Many who look at Moscow’s propaganda efforts consider only their current state and fail to see the ways in which the Kremlin has cultivated certain ideas over a very long period, laying the groundwork for what it may only expect to be able to achieve in the long term.

Such people thus miss opportunities to identify Moscow’s plans and to counter such propaganda before it can inflict the most harm, according to Vyacheslav Gusarov, a specialist on Russian disinformation at the Kyiv Center for Military-Political Research.

The notion that Ukraine might dissolve into several states has been around for a long time, but Russian information operations intended to lay the ground work for that are of more recent origin. The “first serious” example of promoting discussion of this issue came in 2004 during the Ukrainian presidential vote (http://www.ostro.org/regions/37/society/news/article-20387/)
.
http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-has-promoted-ukraines-dismemberment-since-2004-kyiv-disinformation-specialist-says/ (http://www.interpretermag.com/moscow-has-promoted-ukraines-dismemberment-since-2004-kyiv-disinformation-specialist-says/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 23, 2015, 06:55:00 AM
I twas snooping about the internet tis morning and found this piece.  Russia is pointing out that they have more right to Crimea then the UK does The Falklands....of course Argentina agrees with them on that one. 


http://news.yahoo.com/russia-more-crimea-uk-falklands-says-moscow-200418915.html (http://news.yahoo.com/russia-more-crimea-uk-falklands-says-moscow-200418915.html)
Russia has 'more right' to Crimea than UK to Falklands, says Moscow


Moscow (AFP) - Russia has more claim to Crimea than Britain has to the Falkland Islands, a senior Russian lawmaker insisted Sunday as London again denounced Moscow's "illegal annexation" of the peninsula.......


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 08:24:21 AM
What a stupid argument.  Mind you, I don't expect much from the former commie nomenklatura who are now the "respected lawmakers" of Russia and yes, Ukraine.
 
They were killers and pigs before the collapse, and they haven't changed much since the collapse of the USSR.
 
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 09:19:07 AM

Dang, Forbes published an objective and impartial article on the subject matter.








(http://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCiGVR2_kPo6yrG&w=487&h=255&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspecials-images.forbesimg.com%2Fimageserve%2F466726100%2F640x0.jpg%3Ffit%3Dscale%26background%3D000000&cfs=1&upscale=1&sx=0&sy=36&sw=640&sh=335)


One Year After Russia Annexed Crimea, Locals Prefer Moscow To Kiev (http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fonforb.es%2F1MWlaof&h=HAQEgH-0q&s=1)

Poll after poll proves U.S. and Europe wrong on Crimea's annexation by Russia last March.

FORBES.COM|BY KENNETH RAPOZA

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on March 23, 2015, 09:26:01 AM
This is all part of a drama playing out in the Federation Council (Senate), and the Duma has been asked to do some of the advance legwork in propaganda. Last month the presidential administration instructed the Council to lay the groundwork for a declaration that Khrushchev "illegally" assigned Crimea to the Ukrainian Soviet.

Why they bother to attempt to prove their claim over a year after the annexation, is beyond me. First, Khrushchev did not act without authority and consent. He was no Stalin or Brezhnev, and could not have done such a move without the support of his Politburo and the okay by his Supreme Soviet. Had his act been illegal, successors after him could have easily "corrected" the move--they did not.

Then there is the issue of the post Soviet era. Had Russia then felt ownership of Crimea still belonged to them, they had numerous opportunities to present their case, but did not. The breakup of the CCCP left Russia weak, and today Russian will moan and groan and froth at the mouth in attempts to excuse their non-action then as a result of all the chaos. Bullshit. Ukraine was even weaker at the time.

The signing of the Budapest agreement was another opportunity for Russia to make a claim. Ukraine was desperate for funds that came as a result of giving up nukes and would have agreed to just about anything at the time. Russia could have made an offer, and structured some sort of long-term settlement in exchange. Russia remained silent.

The signing of long-term leases for Crimean bases/ports was another opportunity to bring up the matter. In fact, from a legal perspective, any rational person might understand that the agreement to paying those leases was a legal precedent for Russia's acknowledgment of legitimate Ukrainian ownership.

Truth: Russia's so-called possession of Crimea lasted only 171 years after it defeated the Crimean Khanate and made Crimea a conquest. Based on time of possession, the Ottoman descendant states and the Greeks have more claim to Crimea than does Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 09:42:34 AM
Dang, Forbes published an objective and impartial article on the subject matter.

(http://fbexternal-a.akamaihd.net/safe_image.php?d=AQCiGVR2_kPo6yrG&w=487&h=255&url=http%3A%2F%2Fspecials-images.forbesimg.com%2Fimageserve%2F466726100%2F640x0.jpg%3Ffit%3Dscale%26background%3D000000&cfs=1&upscale=1&sx=0&sy=36&sw=640&sh=335)


One Year After Russia Annexed Crimea, Locals Prefer Moscow To Kiev (http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fonforb.es%2F1MWlaof&h=HAQEgH-0q&s=1)

Poll after poll proves U.S. and Europe wrong on Crimea's annexation by Russia last March.

FORBES.COM|BY KENNETH RAPOZA

Irrelevant.  The issue is not what Crimeans want.  It is that the region was seized by force.  Businesses belonging to locals have been nationalized overnight.
 
Had a real referendum been held, similar to the referendums in Quebec and Scotland, with a devolution conducted in accordance with a rule of law, the world would have accepted Crimea joining Russia.  Russia has behaved as a thug in this matter, and in its invasion of Ukraine via the FSB and proxies.  It has proven the rule of law means nothing to it.  We knew this was the case within the country, but it has also proven to be the case internationally.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on March 23, 2015, 10:08:31 AM

Irrelevant.  The issue is not what Crimeans want.  It is that the region was seized by force.  Businesses belonging to locals have been nationalized overnight.
 
Had a real referendum been held, similar to the referendums in Quebec and Scotland, with a devolution conducted in accordance with a rule of law, the world would have accepted Crimea joining Russia.  Russia has behaved as a thug in this matter, and in its invasion of Ukraine via the FSB and proxies.  It has proven the rule of law means nothing to it.  We knew this was the case within the country, but it has also proven to be the case internationally.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pj0bwLBckkI

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Belvis on March 23, 2015, 10:36:20 AM
Irrelevant.  The issue is not what Crimeans want.  It is that the region was seized by force. 

I knew that  laws are above all for a honourable lawer, people is just a subject for law application. However Crimeans did not agree on that proposition. May be because they have not large enough mob  of  lawers there.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Ranetka on March 23, 2015, 10:44:24 AM
Brutal force lol. Not a single shot was fired . It was a brutal referendum and thuggish celebrations. How dare Krimeans to join Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 10:51:27 AM

Irrelevant.  The issue is not what Crimeans want.  It is that the region was seized by force.





Apparently the Crimeans disagree and the only thing keeping Ukraine from implementing a final solution to Crimeans and their notions of self determination is the Russian military.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 10:56:39 AM
I knew that  laws are above all for a honourable lawer, people is just a subject for law application. However Crimeans did not agree on that proposition. May be because they have not large enough mob  of  lawers there.

No, Belvis, Russia either is part of the international community or it is not.  That is the issue.  Should Canada just go take Hans Island?  Should the UK invade Lough Foyle, since it can?  That is the issue.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 10:57:11 AM
Brutal force lol. Not a single shot was fired . It was a brutal referendum and thuggish celebrations. How dare Krimeans to join Russia.

Tell that to the families of the Ukrainian soldiers who were killed.
 
I am not arguing about the result.   Only the method.  And that method means no international recognition.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 10:58:58 AM



Apparently the Crimeans disagree and the only thing keeping Ukraine from implementing a final solution to Crimeans and their notions of self determination is the Russian military.

Right.  Because in the 20 odd years of Ukrainian independence, Crimeans were sent to gas chambers by Ukrainian authorities. :rolleyes:
 
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on March 23, 2015, 11:00:30 AM
Steamer:
Quote
and the only thing keeping Ukraine from implementing a final solution to Crimeans and their notions of self determination is the Russian military.

Dear Lord, Steamer. In all due respect, that is bullshit. Where did you come up with such an idea? Crimea was constitutionally autonomous already, and ethnic Russians were never under any threat. Residents, although independent, lived largely on subsidies from Kyiv.

If Russia's annexation was so innocent, why the need to send in unmarked troops, oust the Crimean parliament, sack the Crimean prime minister (an ethnic Russian), and force a referrend um that gave only two choices, neither of which included remaining as part of Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on March 23, 2015, 11:22:13 AM
Brutal force lol. Not a single shot was fired . It was a brutal referendum and thuggish celebrations. How dare Krimeans to join Russia.

Good to see you posting again.

Although not many shots were fired, Ukraine withdrew under guns pointed at them by Russians.   The Ukrainian military could not have defended Crimea from the invading green men.    It would have been a disaster if they challenged Russia. 

The manner in which Putin handled this is in violation of international law.  Civilized countries sit down at a negotiating table and work it out.  Instead, Putin does what he wants to do.  You may disagree, yet I assure you his style isolates Russia and damages Russia over the long term.   



Was the issue to Crimean citizens about freedom to speak Russian and greater autocracy, or was it about taking bribes from a wealthier country?   One RWD member from Crimea bragged about her salary increasing 4x after Russia's annexation.    They have the extra money for now, yet the fate for Crimea is another Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus (compare the economy of the two Cyprus republics)

I recognize that in its 20+ years of independence, Ukraine failed to develop its economy.  Observers will say that this failure was because of a) deep-seated  corruption and b) the Russian stranglehold on Ukraine.  With Maidan , the people of Ukraine finally started a new journey, whereby ridding themselves of the Russian yoke Ukraine could progress its economy as done in former Soviet satellite countries.  That is, only if Russia would stop interfering with Ukraine.  Putin can not allow that to happen, can he!

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on March 23, 2015, 11:39:56 AM
Steamer:
Dear Lord, Steamer. In all due respect, that is bullshit. Where did you come up with such an idea?

From his putinist wife maybe?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 11:42:00 AM
I recognize that in its 20+ years of independence, Ukraine failed to develop its economy.  Observers will say that this failure was because of a) deep-seated  corruption and b) the Russian stranglehold on Ukraine.  With Maidan , the people of Ukraine finally started a new journey, whereby ridding themselves of the Russian yoke Ukraine could progress its economy as done in former Soviet satellite countries.  That is, only if Russia would stop interfering with Ukraine.  Putin can not allow that to happen, can he!

I don't think Ukraine's failure as a state is because of the Russian stranglehold on Ukraine.  It is because of corruption and the stranglehold Ukrainian oligarchs have on the political system.  That has not yet changed.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 12:07:46 PM
From his putinist wife maybe?


Just to clue you in my wife is half Russian, half Ukraine and doesn't particularly like Putin but I do.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on March 23, 2015, 12:33:50 PM

Just to clue you in my wife is half Russian, half Ukraine and doesn't particularly like Putin but I do.

Steamer; just curious.  What makes you like Putin so much?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on March 23, 2015, 12:40:46 PM
Steamer; just curious.  What makes you like Putin so much?
Apparently, he's paying well for now.... ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 01:11:31 PM
Steamer; just curious.  What makes you like Putin so much?


He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.


On the downside he hasn't diversified the economy. Even though things have improved 'a bit' it's not good enough. I believe it's because the economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs. I would love to see him order these guys to diversify their operations for the good of the country and then have a yearly review. Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable. I think the economy would improve quickly.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on March 23, 2015, 01:57:52 PM

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.
Never mind the fact that he has made over 40 Billion stealing from the people. Reagan indeed!!!  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on March 23, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
Steamer, you do realize that those are his Oligarchs, right?

His own net worth rivals some of those same players, although for the life of me I cannot recall exactly which businesses he started, how effectively he ran them, and how many people he employed while garnering all that fantastic wealth. Oh, wait. I forgot: he never started a business, never ran one, and the only people he employs work in his government.

Stalin made massive advances in Russian manufacturing, and built up his military, too.

Putin has been on the government payroll all his life, yet he is a multimillionaire. How does that compare to Ronald Reagan?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 02:20:47 PM
Never mind the fact that he has made over 40 Billion stealing from the people. Reagan indeed!!!  :ROFL:


Reagan indeed! After he cut the top tax brackets how much do you figure was stolen from the American population? A lot more than $40B. Reagan didn't keep it himself but that was quite a windfall for all the rich folk. Giggle about that while your state is raising your taxes because the fed is reducing funding.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Hammer2722 on March 23, 2015, 02:23:54 PM

Reagan indeed! After he cut the top tax brackets how much do you figure was stolen from the American population? A lot more than $40B. Reagan didn't keep it himself but that was quite a windfall for all the rich folk. Giggle about that while your state is raising your taxes because the fed is reducing funding.
I absolutely love how you think that Reagan stole soo much from us yet you put Putin up on a pedestal. You are too hilarious for me dude. Let's hear some more of your pearls of wisdom. I'm enjoying the comedy.  :clapping:
 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 02:31:51 PM
Steamer, you do realize that those are his Oligarchs, right?

His own net worth rivals some of those same players, although for the life of me I cannot recall exactly which businesses he started, how effectively he ran them, and how many people he employed while garnering all that fantastic wealth. Oh, wait. I forgot: he never started a business, never ran one, and the only people he employs work in his government.

Stalin made massive advances in Russian manufacturing, and built up his military, too.

Putin has been on the government payroll all his life, yet he is a multimillionaire. How does that compare to Ronald Reagan?


Yes and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I was asked why I liked Putin and I answered. The majority of Reagan's life was spent in govt. also and he died a multi millionaire. I don't think it came from a couple of 'Bedtime for Bonzo' movies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 02:38:05 PM
I absolutely love how you think that Reagan stole soo much from us yet you put Putin up on a pedestal. You are too hilarious for me dude. Let's hear some more of your pearls of wisdom. I'm enjoying the comedy.  :clapping:


No redistributed, from the bottom up. Put Putin on a pedestal? Really? I said I like the guy. Why does everything go to extremes with you guys?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 02:39:51 PM

Yes and what does that have to do with the price of tea in China? I was asked why I liked Putin and I answered. The majority of Reagan's life was spent in govt. also and he died a multi millionaire. I don't think it came from a couple of 'Bedtime for Bonzo' movies.


No. it did not.  It came from the largesse of Lew Wasserman and Jules Styne, before Reagan became governor of California.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 02:50:11 PM

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.


On the downside he hasn't diversified the economy. Even though things have improved 'a bit' it's not good enough. I believe it's because the economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs. I would love to see him order these guys to diversify their operations for the good of the country and then have a yearly review. Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable. I think the economy would improve quickly.


He is not upfront, as the Europeans have learned over the lies told during the entire Ukrainian crisis.  Heck, he has even admitted he lied about troops in Crimea.  So, no, he is not "upfront".   You have fallen for propaganda.


Oligarchs control the Russian economy only to the degree the Russian government allows them to.  Cross them, and your fortune is at risk.  Examine the lives of some oligarchs who have done so.  But, why should oligarchs control an economy at all?  Particularly in the case of post Soviet oligarchs, all of whom are former nomenklatura, and almost none of them created that wealth.  Where is the Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, or Steve Jobs among the Russian elites?  Their wealthy stole the wealth of their countries, and are allowed to retain it with state complicity.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on March 23, 2015, 03:00:24 PM
The majority of Reagan's life was spent in govt. also and he died a multi millionaire. I don't think it came from a couple of 'Bedtime for Bonzo' movies.

1. Reagan didn't spend even close to the majority of his life in government. His first government position was governor of California, from 1967-1975. After this he ran in the Republican presidential primaries in 1976. He lost the race for the nomination to incumbent President Gerald Ford. He ran again in 1980 and was elected president. He served for 8 years. So that makes a total of 16 years in government.

2. Reagan appeared in a great many more than a couple of movies.  He was employed to act in more than 60 films, and later a number of television shows. Then later he hosted General Electric Theater, for which he was paid quite a bit. As part of his GE contract he spoke at GE facilities across the country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 03:19:29 PM
My favourite SNL skit about Reagan -


http://screen.yahoo.com/president-reagan-mastermind-000000075.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on March 23, 2015, 03:51:19 PM

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan in a lot of ways. I believe him to be a patriot that is trying to improve his country and its military just like Reagan had to do. He doesn't go for any of this PC crap that the West just loves. He's upfront and will do what he thinks is necessary.


On the downside he hasn't diversified the economy. Even though things have improved 'a bit' it's not good enough. I believe it's because the economy is controlled by a handful of oligarchs. I would love to see him order these guys to diversify their operations for the good of the country and then have a yearly review. Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable. I think the economy would improve quickly.


I was wondering when some conservatives here were going to start lusting after "the man," a paragon of conservatism. I know that the fascist in Europe have wet dreams with "the man" but I haven't heard much from the American far-right.


Steamer, you are the first I've heard. Who knows how many closeted American fascists are lurking around?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 04:04:21 PM

He is not upfront, as the Europeans have learned over the lies told during the entire Ukrainian crisis.  Heck, he has even admitted he lied about troops in Crimea.  So, no, he is not "upfront".   You have fallen for propaganda.


BS. I haven't fallen for anything, I just like the man.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 04:11:18 PM
You claimed he is upfront.  He isn't upfront, as he has been caught in several lies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on March 23, 2015, 04:12:40 PM

BS. I haven't fallen for anything, I just like the man.


What you like the best? His bare chest or his macho prowess?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 23, 2015, 04:17:23 PM
In what way did Reagan kill Americans to get elected President?  How did Reagan start a war with a neighbor like Chechnya, get many of his countrymen killed only to surrender de facto control to a traitor like Razman Kadyrov's Daddy?  How many people did Reagan's friends kill for Reagan on his birthday?  Reagan created 20 million jobs, how many did Putin create?  How many underworld connections did Reagan have with Putin?  How many US servicemen were denied burial due to operations Reagan ordered compared to Putin?  How many plastic surgeries has Reagan had?  The resemblance is astonishing.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 04:23:48 PM
Central America was pretty unstable during the Reagan years.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 04:27:22 PM
You claimed he is upfront.  He isn't upfront, as he has been caught in several lies.


Irelevent. It goes against my preconceived notions.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 04:34:12 PM

What you like the best? His bare chest or his macho prowess?


You're pro Ukraine and judging by your avatar you like Putin a lot more than me.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 04:53:27 PM
Quote
With two studies out of the way, both Western-based, it seems without question that the vast majority of Crimeans do not feel they were duped into voting for annexation, and that life with Russia will be better for them and their families than life with Ukraine. A year ago this week, 83% of Crimeans went to the polling stations and almost 97% expressed support for reunification with their former Soviet parent. The majority of people living on the peninsula are ethnic Russians.

This was the gist of the article I posted, any thoughts?


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 23, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
In what way did Reagan kill Americans to get elected President?  How did Reagan start a war with a neighbor like Chechnya, get many of his countrymen killed only to surrender de facto control to a traitor like Razman Kadyrov's Daddy?  How many people did Reagan's friends kill for Reagan on his birthday?  Reagan created 20 million jobs, how many did Putin create?  How many underworld connections did Reagan have with Putin?  How many US servicemen were denied burial due to operations Reagan ordered compared to Putin?  How many plastic surgeries has Reagan had?  The resemblance is astonishing.
...boring....


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 23, 2015, 05:33:23 PM
What a stupid argument.  Mind you, I don't expect much from the former commie nomenklatura who are now the "respected lawmakers" of Russia and yes, Ukraine.
 
They were killers and pigs before the collapse, and they haven't changed much since the collapse of the USSR.


I think the statement by the Russian official was made to point out the hypocrisy of the UK making the statement it did, given it's own history. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 23, 2015, 05:34:48 PM
Central America was pretty unstable during the Reagan years.

Anyone else agree with Steamer and Boethius that Putin is like Reagan?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on March 23, 2015, 05:44:30 PM
Anyone else agree with Steamer and Boethius that Putin is like Reagan?

I am a Reagan fan, and a comparison to Putin insults Ronnie. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Gator on March 23, 2015, 05:49:03 PM

No redistributed, from the bottom up. Put Putin on a pedestal? Really? I said I like the guy. Why does everything go to extremes with you guys?

You are saying we go to extremes!   

Speaking of extreme, you are the one who wrote, "Top performing oligarch gets a bonus and a parade, bottom performing oligarch gets a bullet in the head and his business turned over to someone more capable."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on March 23, 2015, 05:55:03 PM
I am a Reagan fan, and a comparison to Putin insults Ronnie.

+100
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 06:01:05 PM
Anyone else agree with Steamer and Boethius that Putin is like Reagan?


I never asserted that, nor do I believe it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 23, 2015, 06:06:10 PM

Irelevent. It goes against my preconceived notions.


I would never misspell irrelevant. :) In any event, it is relevant, because you made it so.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 23, 2015, 06:22:45 PM

I never asserted that, nor do I believe it.

That is comforting.  I apologize for any misunderstanding.  As for the likeness, Putin has to Reagan, I agree with the sentiments expressed by the gentlemen above me.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on March 23, 2015, 06:30:08 PM
Anyone else agree with Steamer and Boethius that Putin is like Reagan?


No one ever said Putin is like Reagan. You are just pulling inferences out of your !ss. If not then show me.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 23, 2015, 07:00:47 PM
I think the forum is not interested in any foreplay between you and I.  Let me therefore, move on.

So I was talking to 2 Eurasians last night over twitter.  Everyone here knows my views on Novorossiya and its adherents, yet I correspond with these half men because they are polite and we find agreement on certain issues.

1) There is a slow motion coup going on in the Kremlin between the Kadyrovsty and the Siloviki.

2) Ukraine is the great beneficiary of this conflict because the war in Moscow stunts any progress made by Russia's war machine.

3) The assassination of Batman is a blot on Russian military honor.

4) Hybrid warfare is a stupid way to to wage war that unnecessarily wastes Russian lives and Russian combat power that only benefits the greed of the SysLibs.

5) Russia's survival depends on aggression and expansion.  Any discussion of morality is second to political expediency of the geopolitical and historical realities of Russia.

6) Russia is fragile and could cease to exist if Russia returns to the ways of the 90s.

We could not agree on anything else.  One of them insisted that the only way forward was for America to intervene on the side of the self-proclaimed Republics and recognize them before Russia.  You can guess what my thoughts were on that measure.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on March 24, 2015, 07:37:14 AM
Putin on the Ritz
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on March 24, 2015, 02:59:26 PM
In what way did Reagan kill Americans to get elected President?  How did Reagan start a war with a neighbor like Chechnya, get many of his countrymen killed only to surrender de facto control to a traitor like Razman Kadyrov's Daddy?  How many people did Reagan's friends kill for Reagan on his birthday?  Reagan created 20 million jobs, how many did Putin create?  How many underworld connections did Reagan have with Putin?  How many US servicemen were denied burial due to operations Reagan ordered compared to Putin?  How many plastic surgeries has Reagan had?  The resemblance is astonishing.


Ever heard of Efrain Rios Montt?


Look him up and get a calculator because the numbers are staggering.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on March 24, 2015, 03:00:56 PM

You're pro Ukraine and judging by your avatar you like Putin a lot more than me.


Oh dear, and how did you come out with that incredible deduction, Sherlock?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 24, 2015, 03:43:21 PM

Ever heard of Efrain Rios Montt?


Look him up and get a calculator because the numbers are staggering.

If you are willing to answer my questions point by point with civility in a separate thread, I would be interested in a dialogue with you.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 24, 2015, 04:27:56 PM

Ever heard of Efrain Rios Montt?


Look him up and get a calculator because the numbers are staggering.


SUPERB!!!!  Given some of our recent history we can't (with credibility) lecture about how our past leaders are all angelic and everybody we disagree with is the devil.....lots of shades of gray and both the US and Russia are in it. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 24, 2015, 04:58:08 PM
America is always wrong, eh FT?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 24, 2015, 06:39:53 PM
America is always wrong, eh FT?


Unlike you, I am not a loyalist to the point of blindness....the very thing you criticize the Russian citizenry of.  :o


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 24, 2015, 07:58:18 PM
You got nothing.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on March 24, 2015, 08:34:23 PM

Unlike you, I am not a loyalist to the point of blindness....the very thing you criticize the Russian citizenry of.  :o


Fathertime!


You got nothing.


I was expecting your standard nothing response when a truth regarding your willful blindness is revealed....the truth is YOU have nothing, as is evidenced in your 'response'.   :D :D


Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on March 24, 2015, 08:41:59 PM
Still got nothing.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on April 03, 2015, 04:43:24 PM
This could be subtitled the "useful idiots" thread -
Quote


From the far right to the radical left, populist parties across Europe are being courted by Russia's Vladimir Putin who aims to turn them into allies in his anti-EU campaign.


The Front National (FN) in France, Syriza in Greece and Jobbik in Hungary may be the most famous ones but they are far from being alone. Some, like Britain's UKIP, have adopted a "benevolent neutrality" toward Putin.


They are united in their objective to "challenge the EU", and this in turn aligns them with Russia's wish for a "weak and divided Europe", explains Hungarian political analyst Peter Kreko.

In the longer term, the Kremlin banks on these parties' accession to power to change Europe and separate it from NATO and the United States.

"Moscow wants to establish long-term alliances with all those loyal to Russia," says Russian analyst Konstantin Kalatchev of the Political Expert Group.
These parties also help to promote the Kremlin's internal communications. When Russia annexed Crimea in 2014, self-proclaimed "monitors" from the FN and Austria's Freedom Party (FPO) told Russian TV that due process had been followed.

A whiff of the Cold War pervades "this outdated Communist-era style of spreading propaganda and finding allies," said Jean-Yves Camus, a specialist of the French extreme-right.

But there exists, nevertheless, "a community of shared values", he argued, including opposition to gay marriage, an issue that fuels the idea of a decadent Europe -- "a hot topic in Moscow".

Russia's seduction strategy is also aimed at factions of the European left. "In Germany, the left is the biggest critic of Merkel's Russia policies," notes Kalatchev.

One of the benefits of closer ties with Moscow could be financial support. The FN recently received a loan worth nine million euros ($9.8 million; £6.6 million) from the Czech Russian Bank.

French news website Mediapart reported this week that hacked text messages exchanged between Russian officials proved there was a link between Russian financing and party support for Putin.

Despite lingering suspicions, there is no further proof of direct party funding, even if the WikiLeaks affair revealed that the US ambassador in Sofia had expressed worry about possible Russian transfers to Bulgaria's ultra-nationalist Ataka (Attack) party.

Ataka leader Volen Siderov launched his 2014 European election campaign in Moscow, just as the Ukrainian crisis erupted.

A majority of European populist parties have sided with Russia over Ukraine.

The FN, for instance, has repeatedly described the country's east and Crimea as Russia's historical cradle.

New Greek Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras flew to Moscow in May 2014 while he was still opposition leader. The visit came two months after Crimea's annexation.

His far-left Syriza party illustrates the blurring of political etiquette whenever Moscow is involved.

Greece's Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias, a former communist, was photographed in 2013 with Russian ultra-nationalist Alexandre Douguine, an influential promoter of a Russian-led Eurasian alliance between Europe and Russia.

Yet, now that Tsipras and Kotzias are in power, their party no longer advocates Greece's exit from NATO.

But Greece could still "paralyse" Nato by vetoing military action against Moscow, warns former US national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski.

However, for now the Kremlin and its populist allies have been unable to break Europe's unified pro-sanctions stance against Russia.

The populist parties also failed to form a cohesive political group in the European Parliament in 2014.

But the Kremlin's right-wing strategists have long-term ambitions, according to Kalatchev.

In their eyes, "now is the time to create links with those who could become useful in the future. It's the dawn of a new Europe."
http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/26931202/russia-gambles-on-populist-parties-in-anti-eu-campaign/



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: SANDRO43 on April 03, 2015, 04:59:40 PM
Quote
In their eyes, "now is the time to create links with those who could become useful in the future. "
Nothing new, the Soviets did that during the Cold War with various extreme-left-wing movements. The apparent irony is that Russia is now courting European right-wing formations ;), but no great surprise since that country is becoming more and more similar to a banana republic ::).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on April 03, 2015, 05:07:58 PM
Yes, and the Soviets funded them as well.  I know the Italian communist party received funding from the USSR.


This reminds me of a story.  I was staying with a close high school friend, and phoned hubby while there.  In those days, it was incredibly expensive.  My friend had a wide circle of acquaintances, and one, who I never met, was always lecturing her on how others should live, was the communist party candidate in our federal election.  My friend is Jewish, German surname, though her father was from Poland.  Her mother was from Germany, and converted to Judaism when she married.  But most people didn't know that, and assumed she was German. 


When the commie saw the telephone bill, casually on the front table, with a call to "USSR" (it never specified where), her eyes just about popped out of her head.  My friend never explained why she had a call to the USSR, and the commie treated my friend with kid gloves thereafter.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: lordtiberius on April 03, 2015, 05:08:26 PM
Nothing new,  . . .  but no great surprise since that country is becoming more and more similar to a banana republic ::).

We agree.  But in fairness, banana republics were more rational.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on April 09, 2015, 07:59:27 PM
good move imo
 could it spark something within lithuania by pro russians ??
SX
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lithuania bans Russian TV station


Lithuania’s media watchdog has blocked broadasts by Russian TV channel RTR Planeta on grounds of inciting hatred over Ukraine.

Its Radio and Television Commission took the decision on Wednesday (8 April), with the three-month ban to enter into force on 13 April.

“In the light of events in Ukraine, the channel transmitted propagation of violence and instigation of war”, Mantas Martisius, a member of the Lithuanian regulator and a scholar at Vilnius University, told EUobserver.

The commission said RTR Planeta is portraying Ukrainian people as enemies of Russia and showing contempt for Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

It referred to a show including remarks by Vladimir Zhirinovski, a Russian nationalist MP and Duma vice chairman, who, the commission says, called on people to “deal with Ukraine”.

The Lithuanian military’s strategic communications bureau, which consults the Radio and Television Commission, pushed for the ban and defended it on Lithuanian public radio.

“When we deal with open lies, the state has to react and to show people that it cares about core values”, the bureau’s Karolis Zikaras said.

He described Russian propaganda as “information nihilism”.




He also said Lithuania should promote Lithuanian and Western media products because some Russian media benefit from Russian state subsidies while most Western broadcasters have to compete on the open market.

RTR Planeta is a cable and satellite TV channel owned by Russian state firm VGTRK.

It is licensed in Sweden and broadcasts in the Baltic states but all its cotent is made in Russia and aired in Russian.

The blanket ban on all of RTR Planeta’s shows in Lithuania is a first in the EU, the Lithuanian media regulator noted.

It comes after initial warnings and mini-bans, last March, on some RTR Planeta content, as well as bans on some shows by, Ren TV, another Russian state firm.

The RTR Planeta decision has stirred some debate in Lithuania.

There is criticism of the involvement of the military in the procedure.

There is also discussion on the merits of a new Law on Public Information.

The bill, proposed by president Dalia Grybauskaite, is to impose penalties on broadcasters and re-broadcasters that spread war propaganda, try to instigate changes to the constitutional order in Lithuania, or which are deemed to harm Lithuanian sovereignty.

For his part, Vilnius University’s Martisius said there should be better EU-level regulation on propaganda.

Referring to the EU’s audiovisual media market and TV without frontiers directive, he said hostile states are using EU freedoms to harm EU insterests.

He said some Russian broadcasters, which are licencsed in, say, Sweden or the UK, violate both national and EU-level hate speech laws, but procedures are too slow and too complicated to take them off the air.

“The idea was to create an open liberal media market but we have to understand that regulations are being exploited,” Martisius said.

Share on facebookShare on twitterShare on google_plusone_shareShare on linkedinShare on printMore Sharing Services2

http://euobserver.com/beyond-brussels/128267
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on April 09, 2015, 08:27:11 PM
Good for them!  :clapping:

 Isolate the creeping crud.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on May 23, 2015, 10:39:12 AM
Omit
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on May 25, 2015, 04:56:04 PM
As I was browsing about the internet, I ran across this piece of what might be propaganda on FOX NEWS:    According to the General in charge of our Air Force, we will no longer have air superiority against Russia and China in the next 3-5 years. 


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/25/budget-cuts-impact-us-ability-to-fight-enemy-air-force-general-warns/ (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/05/25/budget-cuts-impact-us-ability-to-fight-enemy-air-force-general-warns/)


Budget cuts impact US ability to fight the enemy, Air Force general warns

In an exclusive interview with Fox News, Gen. Mark Welsh, the head of the U.S. Air Force, warns that severe defense budget cuts will impact U.S. air superiority against enemies that the nation may not be thinking about right now.

“China and Russia are two good examples of countries who will be fielding capability in the next three to five years; if they stay on track, that is better than what we currently have in many areas,” Welsh said during a three-day visit to Langley Air Force Base in Virginia.

“Fighter aircraft in the next three to five years that have more capability than what we currently have sitting on the ramp......



Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on May 26, 2015, 01:51:01 PM
As I was browsing about the internet, I ran across this piece of what might be propaganda on FOX NEWS


Fathertime!




GASP!!!


Say it ain't so!!!


The only propaganda you will see on TV is from George Stephanopoulos.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 01, 2015, 10:07:13 AM
Russian female sues government over her employment as a paid Putin propaganda troll.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/29/russia-troll-sues-former-employer

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 01, 2015, 11:10:10 AM
I would expect that story to be widely trolled by her former workmates.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 02, 2015, 12:09:51 AM
Still speaking out-it just needs more Russians to be brave enough.

Daughter Nemtsov asks EU sanctions to punish Putin's propagandists


The daughter of murdered Russian opposition leader Boris Nemtsov Jeanne Speaker of the Senate of Poland gave a list of Russian media propaganda employees responsible for the harassment and incitement to murder her father.  She asked the Polish authorities to facilitate the introduction of EU sanctions against these persons, writes Radio Poland
Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/dochka-nyemcova-prosit-yes-pokarati-sankciyami-putinskih-propagandistiv-430929.html




Більше читайте тут: http://tsn.ua/svit/dochka-nyemcova-prosit-yes-pokarati-sankciyami-putinskih-propagandistiv-430929.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 03, 2015, 02:44:39 AM
The information keeps coming- the more time that goes by -the more information is coming to light. The contempt Russia is showing to the truth is so dangerous in it's execution-- it is about time western countries woke up and did something about it.

Even today--on this forum-under the heading "Russian News" -- a member here has posted more Russian lies over  the shooting down of MH17- it is NOT "news"-- but an attempt to portray propaganda lies as news.

Wake up people and see how this is an abuse of the truth.

Below is another story that illustrates the depths that the Kremlin is going to to perpetrate Russian lying-- and the resultant confusion created must have them laughing themselves silly at how stupid western media is .

The Agency
From a nondescript office building in St. Petersburg, Russia, an army of well-paid “trolls” has tried to wreak havoc all around the Internet — and in real-life American communities.

Around 8:30 a.m. on Sept. 11 last year, Duval Arthur, director of the Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness for St. Mary Parish, Louisiana, got a call from a resident who had just received a disturbing text message. “Toxic fume hazard warning in this area until 1:30 PM,” the message read. “Take Shelter. Check Local Media and columbiachemical.com.”

St. Mary Parish is home to many processing plants for chemicals and natural gas, and keeping track of dangerous accidents at those plants is Arthur’s job. But he hadn’t heard of any chemical release that morning. In fact, he hadn’t even heard of Columbia Chemical. St. Mary Parish had a Columbian Chemicals plant, which made carbon black, a petroleum product used in rubber and plastics. But he’d heard nothing from them that morning, either. Soon, two other residents called and reported the same text message. Arthur was worried: Had one of his employees sent out an alert without telling him?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=2
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on June 03, 2015, 09:26:25 AM
As I was casually browsing about the internet I came across a story that seems to demonstrate that WE, the American's are also victims of propaganda and don't seem to recognize it, which I imagine is what makes the propaganda so effective.


I recall many years ago, we were told how we do not torture prisoners, then I later recall later admissions that we do 'waterboard' prisoners on occasion.  NOW many, many years later more is coming out. Apparently we conducted a hell of a lot more than waterboarding.  In this particular Reuters story, what has been recounted is definitely pure torture. 


I am not giving an opinion here regarding whether the torture should or should not have happened.  The point is that we were likely lied to for many many years, and only now when the issue is far in the background is the truth slowly being exposed.  Our media was kept in the dark, and hence all we received was propaganda.    if this can happen regarding this story, it can and does happen with other stories currently in the forefront, especially regarding Russia/Ukraine.  I have to chuckle when I read from those who are so brainwashed as to think that only others are subjected to propaganda...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/02/us-usa-torture-khan-idUSKBN0OI1TW20150602 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/02/us-usa-torture-khan-idUSKBN0OI1TW20150602)


Exclusive: Detainee alleges CIA sexual abuse, torture beyond Senate findings



The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency used a wider array of sexual abuse and other forms of torture than was disclosed in a Senate report last year, according to a Guantanamo Bay detainee turned government cooperating witness.

Majid Khan said interrogators poured ice water on his genitals, twice videotaped him naked and repeatedly touched his "private parts" – none of which was described in the Senate report. Interrogators, some of whom smelled of alcohol, also threatened to beat him with a hammer, baseball bats, sticks and leather belts, Khan said.....




Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on June 03, 2015, 06:23:47 PM
The information keeps coming- the more time that goes by -the more information is coming to light. The contempt Russia is showing to the truth is so dangerous in it's execution-- it is about time western countries woke up and did something about it.

Agreed.

Even today--on this forum-under the heading "Russian News" -- a member here has posted more Russian lies over  the shooting down of MH17- it is NOT "news"-- but an attempt to portray propaganda lies as news.

Wake up people and see how this is an abuse of the truth.

Jay, I responded in the other thread as well.  What Bill posted IS news: where is the propaganda in the main point of the article?  The head of the company which makes BUK missiles has admitted that a BUK was used to shoot down MH-17. This, as a headline, should take up the front page of every newspaper in the free world.  I'll agree that his going on to say that it was "an earlier model that Russia doesn't use any more" and therefore it must have been used by Ukraine can surely be seen as nonsensical propaganda.  Unless the part of the missile which had its part number and serial number stencilled on it was recovered, how could ANYBODY possibly be so certain which version of the missile was used?

Below is another story that illustrates the depths that the Kremlin is going to to perpetrate Russian lying-- and the resultant confusion created must have them laughing themselves silly at how stupid western media is .

The Agency
From a nondescript office building in St. Petersburg, Russia, an army of well-paid “trolls” has tried to wreak havoc all around the Internet — and in real-life American communities.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=2

That is an amazing article by Adrian Chen.  Thank you for posting it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on June 03, 2015, 06:38:51 PM
Quote "Unless the part of the missile which had its part number and serial number stencilled on it was recovered, how could ANYBODY possibly be so certain which version of the missile was used?"

As I recall, some fragments of the warhead were recovered at the crash site and it is claimed that they are from the warhead of the later design and not used in the earlier design.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 04, 2015, 07:27:44 PM
Netflix:
'Hitler and the Nazis'.
I just finishing watching this series. It's amazing and jolting to see that Hitler used a lot of the same propaganda techniques as Putin is now using. Putin has increased Russia's isolation while using that isolation to create a martyr complex among his people. It's an 'Us versus Them' mentality. Putin cares only about his imaginary empire that must expand and defend itself against imaginary threats- the USA and the EU. Putin rarely speaks of democracy, because he's a throwback to a time of tyrants. Like Hitler, a lot of who he is, is based on a cult of personality. He's up there on a pedestal and his own people can't see that he's ruining Russia. Check out the Netflix series! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 06, 2015, 11:51:23 AM
Fighting Russian Propaganda:
Who can trust this guy? Putin's lies:

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-russia-lies-ukraine-state-department-2014-4
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on June 06, 2015, 01:19:45 PM
Fighting Russian Propaganda:
Who can trust this guy? Putin's lies:

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-russia-lies-ukraine-state-department-2014-4

I am surprised that Obama had the balls to allow the state department to release this.  Now that Putin has near total control over the media that Russians have access to, it seems unlikely that the ordinary Russian will see the truth about their dictator.  It might help if the gutless EU would also widely publish a similar list.  Perhaps it can get through to at least a few in Russia.

Seems to me that with Putin following much of Hitlers methods, he has much more in his future plans than just Crimea and Ukraine.  Putin has a dilemma.  He knows that Europe is too cowardly and ill equipped to defend themselves against an invasion.  At the same time, he has only a year and one half of Obama remaining in office.  He risks that a new US President will take a much stronger position toward containing his aggression toward other nations.

Basically, Putin has a year and one half to achieve any new conquests.  This should be an interesting period to watch.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on June 06, 2015, 06:09:24 PM
Fighting Russian Propaganda:
Who can trust this guy? Putin's lies:

http://www.businessinsider.com/putin-russia-lies-ukraine-state-department-2014-4

I am surprised that Obama had the balls to allow the state department to release this.

Guys, guys, guys - did you not see the date?  April 2014!!!!  Rather a lot has happened since then.

Now that Putin has near total control over the media that Russians have access to, it seems unlikely that the ordinary Russian will see the truth about their dictator.  It might help if the gutless EU would also widely publish a similar list.  Perhaps it can get through to at least a few in Russia.

It would be extremely interesting to see an update - if the State Department is allowed to.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 07, 2015, 09:24:01 AM
Yesterday, Corriere della Sera, one of Italy's' oldest newspapers, published an interview with Putin.  Much of what Michael McFaul, former US ambassador to Russia, stated in an interview about a month ago is foreshadowed in that interview, in particular, about splitting Western alliances and justifying their heinous policies.

Below is the interview with Mr. McFaul.


U.W.: When western policymakers were trying to democratize Russia, why did they overlook – intentionally or not – the rise of the regime that Russia has today?

The first thing that I would say is that outsiders have very limited influence on democratic processes internally, especially in big countries. So, the influence of the West was always very marginal in Russia. And it should never be overestimated. The biggest difference of Russia compared to more successful democratic transitions in the post-communist region was that there was a division between those who wanted to move forward and become more democratic and those who did not. In other countries, such as Poland or Estonia, there was more consensus from the very beginning. So they had a better start.

The second thing is that old institutions of the Soviet system, such as the KGB, remained in place. And we didn’t pay enough attention to them, whereas they totally collapsed in other places.

The third thing we generally know about democratic transitions is called the ‘resource curse’ in the Western academic literature. It says that if you get the majority of revenues from natural resources, you are not dependant on tax payers to raise money for the government. If you are dependent on the taxpayers to raise revenues, then you have to listen to the taxpayers. And there is a lot of research that shows that countries, which are heavy oil and gas exporters around the world, not just in Europe, tend to be more autocratic than democratic.

I also think the failure for Russian democracy to consolidate was very contingent. One can imagine just a few facts being different that might have changed the trajectory. The Russian people did not select Putin. Yeltsin did. There is no way that Putin would have become the President of Russia, if Yeltsin hadn’t selected him. He had never won an election at any level before 2000. So it was not inevitable, that whoever came after Yeltsin would stay in power for fifteen years. Had he chosen Nemtsov, who was one of other candidates at that time, Russian political history could have been very different.

People often forget that, but I think it’s an important point. There is some assumption that it was inevitable, that Putin would be the next leader after Yeltsin. I think that’s not true. It was an accident of history.

U.W.: The U.S. used to consider Russia as regional leader. Has this vision changed? If so, what country or a group of countries is considered to be a potential strategic leader in Eastern Europe now?

There have been periods in the U.S.-Russia relations after the Cold War, when we cooperated very closely on big important issues. One was in the late 1980s and early 1990s. The beginning of the Clinton Administration was certainly like that. There was still a high degree of cooperation with the Bush Administration after September 11, then during the “reset” in the early years of the Obama Administration. It’s not true today. We are now in a much more competitive environment with Russia. Therefore, those who are competitive with Russia are like our allies. So without question Ukraine is a very important country right now for not just this part of the world, but for the entire world – because of the norms that were violated with Russian intervention into Ukraine. It’s not just about Ukraine, it’s about the international system that is being challenged by what Russia is doing.

U.W.: Going back to the “reset policy”, why do you think it has not brought forth the expected results?

It had delivered lots of results in the beginning. We got a new START treaty, sanctions on Iran, new supplies to our groups in Afghanistan, and we got Russia into the WTO. Those results were and remain good. The change then happened in Russia internally. Putin had a different view about America, so our ability to work with him diminished. The “reset” was really over in 2012.

U.W.: Now we see that Putin is winning more and more allies in the West among the EU countries. Do you think there is a way to restrain him somehow?

I believe that to maintain unity is No1 foreign policy challenge for the United States. I’m really nervous about it. I think the allies in NATO need to remember why the alliance was created in the first place and to reaffirm solidarity to it. It has been the most successful alliance in modern history. What comes to the EU, of course we are not a member of it, but we have an interest in seeing the EU succeed. And you are right, Putin is challenging that. I think it is really a new drama that we have not experienced for many-many years, when Russia is trying to peel away allies and to peel away members of the EU. It is a very serious question.

U.W.: Can the supply of arms to Ukraine be approved before the presidential election in the U.S.? Under which circumstances?

It all depends on Putin. If Putin escalates the military campaign in Eastern Ukraine, that will lead to more weapons for Ukraine. If he doesn’t, then I don’t expect the Obama Administration to send new weapons. I do however think there could be changes after the election in the United States.

U.W.: What do you see as the future scenario for the Donbas and Crimea?

I’m not optimistic. I think Putin has made a decision to pursue aggressive policy and he has explained to his people that he is fighting NATO, Nazis, and evil. That already describes it. It’s hard to negotiate with Nazis, it’s hard to negotiate with the devil. How does he then reverse his propaganda and say: “Well, now we’re going to negotiate with these very evil people”? That would be hard to do in domestic terms.

Ukraine and Ukrainian partners in the West should continue to try to negotiate and seek a settlement. War serves nobody’s interest and there have been so many needless, totally tragic, unnecessary deaths in Ukraine already. But I’m not optimistic.

U.W.: If a new political leader comes to power in Russia?       
It all depends on who will come to power. But I do think that would create a moment for change, like it does in all countries.

In the long run, however, I’m actually optimistic about Russia. When people become economically rich they demand a more representative government. It happened in Europe, Asia and Latin America. And I have no reason to believe that Russia will somehow be unique in that respect. Russian leaders today talk about how unique and different Russia is, but I met a lot of Russians when I lived there and they didn’t seem that unique to me. They seemed like they cared mostly about their own financial situation, the future of their children, and wanted to live peacefully and free of corruption. They did not seem too interested in supporting the revival of the Russian empire, supporting a war, or securing some special place for Russia in the world.  Maybe people who think this way are not in the majority right now, but I expect that those people will define foreign policy twenty years from now.

U.W.: How much does the future of the Donbas and Crimea depend on Russia now?

It’s mostly about Russia, unfortunately, because I don’t see the will of the international community to use coercive power to change the situation in either place. There would be a change option theoretically, in terms of capacity, but I don’t see one in terms of intentions. There are very few people who want to go to war with Russia over Crimea of the Donbas in my country. My guess is that the same is true in most of Europe. I do believe, however, that there are many people in the United States who want to help Ukraine to defend itself. I am one of them. That debate is still ongoing.

In the long run, however, Ukraine’s economic and democratic success is crucial for reunification. Ukraine is not the first divided society. Other countries have endured this kind of occupation and division. Success stories after the division are those where it was clear that one side lived better than other. In Germany, for instance, the attractiveness of West Germany’s model helped bring about reunification. 


U.W.: You mentioned earlier that big decisions in politics are often made based on emotions rather than logic. Do think that Putin is acting based on emotions? How would you describe his psychological portrait as a politician?

So in the long run that’s a very important thing for the Ukrainians to remember that they need to make their country a much more attractive place to be part of, compared to the alternative of living in Russia or some ambiguous zone of sovereignty like the Donbas right now. People in the Donbas should clearly understand that Russia is not helping them. Putin is just using them to weaken Ukraine, not actually thinking much about their wellbeing or future; he is deliberately keeping it ambiguous. If I were living there and were thinking about how I am going to raise my kids in a place that is ambiguous in terms of sovereignty, I would want to leave.  Are people in the Donbas better off today than they were two years ago? The answer is no? Why are they worse off?  Because Putin’s proxies showed up and seized power. Someday, I hope they will understand the source of current economic despair and seek a return to normal life.

I see Putin more as a tactical leader, not a strategic one, and making emotional decisions. There is no question on my mind that that’s what happened with Crimea. When it was cheap to take Crimea, he became tempted to go further. That was unfortunate. Annexation should have been more costly to him. That could have helped to prevent the future aggression.

The other thing I would say is that he believes that time is on his side. He believes that the West will become disinterested. He believes that Ukraine will fail with its economic reforms, that it will not be able to recover economically and that would lead to political unrest and division again. They are waiting for the day when there will be massive protests against the government in Ukraine because of the new prices for energy or something like that. So Putin can be patient. He does not need a settlement; he can let things go for a very-very long time.

U.W.: What do you see as factors hampering reforms in Ukraine, in addition to war?

The main criticism and worry in the West about reforms in Ukraine is about corruption. In Washington, Brussels, and throughout the West, when Ukraine is mentioned they talk about the oligarchs and corruption with energy pricing on a massive scale. Tackling that in a serious way, especially right now, when there is enthusiasm for change in the society, as you said, may be the most important thing.

Some people say that criticism is not fair: “What about Russia? Russia is corrupt too”. But it’s not about fairness, it’s about reputation, it’s about trying to rehabilitate Ukraine’s image in Europe. Ukraine should become a normal, democratic, boring European country. That’s what we all aspire to see: just a normal, boring, democratic country. Not so much excitement any more. You had enough of excitement.

http://ukrainianweek.com/World/136638 (http://ukrainianweek.com/World/136638)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Brasscasing on June 07, 2015, 11:16:32 AM

..."U.W.: When western policymakers were trying to democratize Russia, why did they overlook – intentionally or not – the rise of the regime that Russia has today?

The first thing that I would say is that outsiders have very limited influence on democratic processes internally, especially in big countries. So, the influence of the West was always very marginal in Russia. And it should never be overestimated. The biggest difference of Russia compared to more successful democratic transitions in the post-communist region was that there was a division between those who wanted to move forward and become more democratic and those who did not. In other countries, such as Poland or Estonia, there was more consensus from the very beginning. So they had a better start."...

..."The second thing is that old institutions of the Soviet system, such as the KGB, remained in place. And we didn’t pay enough attention to them, whereas they totally collapsed in other places."...


..."I also think the failure for Russian democracy to consolidate was very contingent. One can imagine just a few facts being different that might have changed the trajectory. The Russian people did not select Putin. Yeltsin did. There is no way that Putin would have become the President of Russia, if Yeltsin hadn’t selected him. He had never won an election at any level before 2000. So it was not inevitable, that whoever came after Yeltsin would stay in power for fifteen years. Had he chosen Nemtsov, who was one of other candidates at that time, Russian political history could have been very different.

People often forget that, but I think it’s an important point. There is some assumption that it was inevitable, that Putin would be the next leader after Yeltsin. I think that’s not true. It was an accident of history."...

As an aside, I've mentioned this a few years ago elsewhere but back around '93 or '94, while still in uniform, I had occasion to attend a security/intelligence briefing. There was also an officer in attendance who offered an opinion that went something like this;

20 years...maybe two generations and Russia will reassert itself back on the world stage. I remember him commenting that regardless of the move towards democracy (at the time) historically the Russian people had never known democracy and chances were they would return to an authoritarian government/state at sometime in the near future, or words to that effect.

Not much weight was given to the young officer's remarks at the time by the others in attendance.

Every now and then when something crops up in the media (like Bo's article) it  reminds me of that officer and how eerily accurate his assessment was.

Brass

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 07, 2015, 06:14:23 PM
Nemtsov's Report (with help from his friends)(English)
Putin. War
http://4freerussia.org/putin.war/Putin.War-Eng.pdf
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 07, 2015, 06:49:18 PM
As I was casually browsing about the internet I came across a story that seems to demonstrate that WE, the American's are also victims of propaganda and don't seem to recognize it, which I imagine is what makes the propaganda so effective.


I recall many years ago, we were told how we do not torture prisoners, then I later recall later admissions that we do 'waterboard' prisoners on occasion.  NOW many, many years later more is coming out. Apparently we conducted a hell of a lot more than waterboarding.  In this particular Reuters story, what has been recounted is definitely pure torture. 


I am not giving an opinion here regarding whether the torture should or should not have happened.  The point is that we were likely lied to for many many years, and only now when the issue is far in the background is the truth slowly being exposed.  Our media was kept in the dark, and hence all we received was propaganda.    if this can happen regarding this story, it can and does happen with other stories currently in the forefront, especially regarding Russia/Ukraine.  I have to chuckle when I read from those who are so brainwashed as to think that only others are subjected to propaganda...


http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/02/us-usa-torture-khan-idUSKBN0OI1TW20150602 (http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/02/us-usa-torture-khan-idUSKBN0OI1TW20150602)


Exclusive: Detainee alleges CIA sexual abuse, torture beyond Senate findings



The U.S. Central Intelligence Agency used a wider array of sexual abuse and other forms of torture than was disclosed in a Senate report last year, according to a Guantanamo Bay detainee turned government cooperating witness.

Majid Khan said interrogators poured ice water on his genitals, twice videotaped him naked and repeatedly touched his "private parts" – none of which was described in the Senate report. Interrogators, some of whom smelled of alcohol, also threatened to beat him with a hammer, baseball bats, sticks and leather belts, Khan said.....

Fathertime!

You are right. There is a degree of propaganda, which is presented by various Western governments. So?
It's a ridiculous comparison because of the scale, the size of the infractions. It's like saying some murders in a Chicago neighborhood are comparable to Hitler's exterminations. The enormity of one violation, in contrast to a relatively small violation. The CIA's terrible tortures pale in comparison to the thousands of deaths in Ukraine, at the hands of Putin's devout pawns, who appear to be severely brainwashed by his propaganda. So, it's a question of degree. The West is NOT squeaky clean, but Putin's propaganda machine has lots of blood on its hands.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on June 07, 2015, 08:58:09 PM
You are right. There is a degree of propaganda, which is presented by various Western governments. So?
It's a ridiculous comparison because of the scale, the size of the infractions. It's like saying some murders in a Chicago neighborhood are comparable to Hitler's exterminations. The enormity of one violation, in contrast to a relatively small violation. The CIA's terrible tortures pale in comparison to the thousands of deaths in Ukraine, at the hands of Putin's devout pawns, who appear to be severely brainwashed by his propaganda. So, it's a question of degree. The West is NOT squeaky clean, but Putin's propaganda machine has lots of blood on its hands.


Are you saying one propaganda is ok compared to another?  You sound like the West has no blood on it's hands.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 07, 2015, 10:54:20 PM
Lots of countries have blood on their hands.
Call them on it. Shine the spotlight. Focusing
on torturous interrogation techniques is fine.
Comparing it to thousands of deaths in Ukraine
is absurd.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 09, 2015, 03:56:47 AM
Calm:
Quote
Now that Putin has near total control over the media that Russians have access to, it seems unlikely that the ordinary Russian will see the truth about their dictator.

I had an interesting conversation with a member of the loyal opposition yesterday. We spent 3  hours walking and talking along a lake, out of earshot.

He started by asking me how I could be 100% certain in identifying Russian troops in Ukraine. It really is an easy answer once you learn the camouflage issued by each Army. The new Russian design is different from what the Ukrainian Army issues, and the rebels were given the old style Russian outfits. Boots are a dead giveaway, too, as a real rebel generally wears walking shoes or footwear designed for coal mining. One must remember that a real pro-Russian rebel, as opposed to a professional Russian soldier, was a coal miner last week.

Who is driving is also a giveaway, and what they are driving. Last week's coal miners are not issued brand new Russian tanks--those are driven by professionals with the appropriate training. There is also the issue of accents.

So, I told him this and then asked him, "why is such an intelligent people ignorant of these things?" "How are such well-educated folk blinded by propaganda?"

His answer startled me: "They are not blind. They know."

Just days ago the First Channel ran a story about a Donbass kid who as the story goes was captured by Ukrainian soldiers. The report claimed that the Ukrainians chopped off all his fingers, and the report was accompanied by photos of a bandaged hand that appeared to have no fingers.

Of course there was no explanation of why the boy could have his fingers chopped off by the Ukrainian Army, and then be free to show up on Russian television a few days later. "Dear Gawd, are we all this stupid," I asked myself. Neither was there any mention of Ukrainian soldiers being executed by Russian soldiers, which is bragged about by pro-Russian rebels on sites like VK, etc.

"They know and they understand" the guy repeated. But, their longing for Russia's return to a great power with iron firm control over neighbors is greater than any moral concerns. Things like treaties and ceasefires are only as good as they need to give time for Russia to maneuver.

I asked again, "so, they know about Russian troops in Ukraine?"

"Absolutely," was his reply. He went on to explain that until stopped, they will never admit the truth because a lie is okay if it advances the state.

They know.

They understand.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 09, 2015, 05:11:25 PM
See my new topic. It focuses in on the lie- "No Russian Troops In Ukraine'

'Russian Military In Ukraine'
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19676.0#new
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on June 09, 2015, 10:38:19 PM
Lots of countries have blood on their hands.
Call them on it. Shine the spotlight. Focusing
on torturous interrogation techniques is fine.
Comparing it to thousands of deaths in Ukraine
is absurd.


Again, it sounds like you are saying torture isn't as bad because it isn't in the thousands (you really don't know how many have been tortured over the years).  Now that would be absurd if that is what you mean.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 09, 2015, 11:40:41 PM
I'd say that most people think torture
is wrong. We should do what we can to stop
it. I'd say that most people think Russia's
war on Ukraine is wrong. We should do what
we can to stop it. It's evil. Those who say
There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine
are either liars or idiots.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on June 09, 2015, 11:49:28 PM
There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine
are either liars or idiots.


Ignorant, yes, but an idiot, maybe not.  I take it you have never believed someone who lied to you.  If you have, then you are as much an idiot as those believing the propaganda.  I honestly don't understand the harsh criticism on those that believe the propaganda.


Everyone has believed something that has turned out to be a lie at some point in their lives.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 10, 2015, 06:17:59 AM
That's my opinion.
Those who say there are no Russian
soldiers in Ukraine are either idiots or liars.
I'm sorry if that offends you. I'm offended
by the propaganda.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on June 10, 2015, 06:21:20 AM
That's my opinion.
Those who say there are no Russian
soldiers in Ukraine are either idiots or liars.
I'm sorry if that offends you. I'm offended
by the propaganda.


You couldn't possibly offend me.  I highly doubt that you are sorry if your opinion offends me.  I suppose that would make you a liar if I am right.  ;)


I just find it ironic that you would call someone else an idiot with such simplistic views.  I can't say I am sorry if my opinion offends you.   :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 10, 2015, 06:54:30 AM
That's clever.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on June 10, 2015, 06:57:53 AM
I'd say that most people think torture
is wrong. We should do what we can to stop
it. I'd say that most people think Russia's
war on Ukraine is wrong. We should do what
we can to stop it. It's evil. Those who say
There are no Russian soldiers in Ukraine
are either liars or idiots.

It's just simply, not that simple. You say you hate propaganda yet, you are sucking up the Western media propaganda as fast as they can shovel it to you. I don't see you proclaiming yourself an idiot or a liar? Look and think from the position that everybody is lying to you. Nobody is telling you the truth, only their version of the truth. Is there "more" truth to the Western version than the Russian? Perhaps but even it is not the unvarnished truth.

Russia has the same percentage of idiots as any other industrialized nation on earth. It also has an educated populace. They are not idiots or liars, they live under a different system than you do. They do have an advantage that you don't. Many are smart enough to not believe the propaganda. It doesn't appear that you are.

Do many Russians believe the propaganda? Yup, many do, just like you do the Western version. That doesn't make either of you idiots, just misled
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 10, 2015, 07:17:58 AM
Tell me what you see as Western propaganda?
This should be interesting.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on June 10, 2015, 07:29:08 AM
Tell me what you see as Western propaganda?
This should be interesting.

I've no doubt Putin has soldiers in Ukraine, is backing the pro Russian terrorist and there is war in Ukraine. The Western propaganda machines has you convince he's doing it because he's a bully, a dictator and wants to return Russia to it's glory from the Soviet era. Do you believe that?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 10, 2015, 09:33:26 AM
I'm happy that you stated some truths that go against what Putin has told us, and what we hear from the Russian propaganda machine, from the Kremlin.

When Putin says, "Russian troops in Ukraine. No.", I think he is being deceptive because he knows the world would see Russian involvement there for what it is- a disruption of the new Ukrainian state. I think Putin is motivated by personal revenge. He sees the Revolution of Dignity as a personal affront. He had a close relationship with Yanukovych, who many saw as his puppet. The following events affected Putin. He reacted to them, like a child having a tantrum.
1- Ukrainians wanted closer ties to the EU, through a free trade agreement
2- Ukrainians threw out his puppet, after that puppet turned away from the trade agreement.
3- The Revolution represented a turn towards the EU, and an EU style of government and culture.

Putin reacted to these developments. He took them personally. I don't think he saw the events clearly. Instead, it was all about himself and the degree of 'control' he had
over Russia's sphere of influence. He still sees himself as a person who can control Ukraine, the cradle of Russian culture. Yes, he actually is a bully, and if you'd like, I can give examples of his threats and statements, where he tries to intimidate Poroshenko and others.

It is a fact that he said, ‘The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.’ I guess one can interpret that in a variety of ways, but most see it as coming from the mind of a KGB agent.

I don't think Putin wants the government in Kyiv to succeed. Yanu is gone, and Poroshenko looks very Western. Russia's military involvement can give the new government in Ukraine lots of problems. I think that's his motivation. Revenge for leaning West and throwing out his friend. He is also motivated by his poll numbers. Nationalism is working for him, and ironically, he's against the nationalism of Ukrainians. If Russia is 'home', Ukrainians can never return there again. Putin has made sure of that.

What do YOU think motivates Putin? I think the idea of 'protecting Russian speakers everywhere' is another lie. The individuals I know in Crimea told me there was not any problem before the annexation... 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 10, 2015, 11:31:33 AM
Nope, no western propaganda here.
Revolution of Dignity?
From Obama's mouth to your ears.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 10, 2015, 11:36:37 AM
Please show me where Obama has ever stated what PG has posted.

PG, I don't think Yanukovych was Putin's puppet.  I also don't believe Putin took the events in Ukraine personally.   Nor do I think this is about revenge.  I think, at the end of the day, there was a concern by those in power in Moscow that a Western leaning, successful Ukraine would lead to Russians wanting the same thing.  Realistically, though, that Western leaning Ukraine was probably at least 3 decades away, assuming corruption and the oligarchs were, in fact, tamed.

I don't discount their concern about Ukraine eventually joining NATO were it to solidify relations with the EU, but I don't think that would have occurred.  However, you can't discount that Russian leaders' paranoia may have played into events as they unfolded.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 10, 2015, 11:41:57 AM
Please show me where Obama has ever stated what PG has posted.



Please show me what part of PG's butt he pulled all of this mallarkey out of.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 10, 2015, 11:50:37 AM
You made the allegation it was from Obama. 

Nope, no western propaganda here. From Obama's mouth to your ears.   :rolleyes:
(subsequently edited by you).

Please provide a link in which Obama stated what PG has posted.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on June 10, 2015, 12:20:43 PM
I'm happy that you stated some truths that go against what Putin has told us, and what we hear from the Russian propaganda machine, from the Kremlin.

When Putin says, "Russian troops in Ukraine. No.", I think he is being deceptive because he knows the world would see Russian involvement there for what it is- a disruption of the new Ukrainian state. I think Putin is motivated by personal revenge. He sees the Revolution of Dignity as a personal affront. He had a close relationship with Yanukovych, who many saw as his puppet. The following events affected Putin. He reacted to them, like a child having a tantrum.
1- Ukrainians wanted closer ties to the EU, through a free trade agreement
2- Ukrainians threw out his puppet, after that puppet turned away from the trade agreement.
3- The Revolution represented a turn towards the EU, and an EU style of government and culture.

Putin reacted to these developments. He took them personally. I don't think he saw the events clearly. Instead, it was all about himself and the degree of 'control' he had
over Russia's sphere of influence. He still sees himself as a person who can control Ukraine, the cradle of Russian culture. Yes, he actually is a bully, and if you'd like, I can give examples of his threats and statements, where he tries to intimidate Poroshenko and others.

It is a fact that he said, ‘The breakup of the Soviet Union was the greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century.’ I guess one can interpret that in a variety of ways, but most see it as coming from the mind of a KGB agent.

I don't think Putin wants the government in Kyiv to succeed. Yanu is gone, and Poroshenko looks very Western. Russia's military involvement can give the new government in Ukraine lots of problems. I think that's his motivation. Revenge for leaning West and throwing out his friend. He is also motivated by his poll numbers. Nationalism is working for him, and ironically, he's against the nationalism of Ukrainians. If Russia is 'home', Ukrainians can never return there again. Putin has made sure of that.

What do YOU think motivates Putin? I think the idea of 'protecting Russian speakers everywhere' is another lie. The individuals I know in Crimea told me there was not any problem before the annexation...
Your propaganda induced analysis doesn't look too good, as even pro-Ukrainians are questioning it, and rightfully so.  Now if we were to go off of your philosophy that would make you either an idiot or a liar.    I don't subscribe to your philosophy though, I think you are deluded on this topic though. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on June 10, 2015, 12:26:01 PM


I don't discount their concern about Ukraine eventually joining NATO were it to solidify relations with the EU, but I don't think that would have occurred.
  However, you can't discount that Russian leaders' paranoia may have played into events as they unfolded.
I seem to recall you did in the past discount Russia's concern about Ukraine possibly joining NATO.  Maybe they wouldn't have, but the direction they were/are attempting to go could easily make someone (who isn't paranoid) think they MIGHT someday in the future...and that was likely seen as on of the unacceptable risks that has factored into this conflict. 

Fathertime!     
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on June 10, 2015, 12:55:19 PM

What do YOU think motivates Putin? I think the idea of 'protecting Russian speakers everywhere' is another lie. The individuals I know in Crimea told me there was not any problem before the annexation...

Well I think you've done a lot of assuming and it would appear based on Western propaganda and others op/ed information.

I tend to think it's ALWAYS about the money first. I believe most wars are always about the money. Ukraine has been in massive debt to Russia and they were connected in many ways particularly economically. Generally when you cut everything else away, it's always about the money. How much of it was Ukraine's debt to Russia? Little I would say but a factor. The biggest part is IMHO, Ukraine turning away from Russia and to the EU has the potential to limit or cut off some of Vlad's personal revenue streams. That's likely the only place it get's personal. The Western propaganda has painted a whole 'nother picture of Putin in my mind and most folks are believing it. I don't think them idiots or liars, just misled
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 10, 2015, 12:55:34 PM
I still discount it.  It's about as realisitc as Saddam's "WMD".
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on June 10, 2015, 01:02:14 PM
In other words, Ukraine isn't capable of paying it's debts to Russia and turning to the EU would effectively remove him and his cronies from Ukraine with the outing of Yanko. He has personal and professional interests to make Ukraine undesirable to any one with other idea's. It's been pretty effective to date.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 10, 2015, 01:22:03 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the west never cared for Ukraine. The US is not into creating Democracy or a good life for Ukrainians, they just use them in a Proxy war against Russia.

The Ukrainians who bought into this Maidan stupidity is now Learning a lesson. Ukraine will never join the EU or NATO. They will be useful idiots until a New crisis somewhere else happens and the world will forget about them. What they will be left With however, is a big debt and oligarchs stealing the rest of their Resources along With their masters, the multinational Companies, sucking the country dry.

Russia should never forget their hate. The idiots who thought they could just get into the EU and be carried through life on a gold plate needs to learn their lesson! Europe has more than enough problems With it's own failuring countries as well as the freeloaders from the Baltics. Handing over billions upon billions to stupid Ukronazis will never be accepted. Leave than up to the Americans who apparently have unlimited dollars to spare.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 10, 2015, 03:30:35 PM
Oh geez, more propaganda.  ;)


C'mon Roy, tell us what really is happening with the Ukonazis.


Edit: From one extreme to the other.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 10, 2015, 05:23:13 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the west never cared for Ukraine.


That must be why Western governments and Westerners gave them money and often, moved to Ukraine, often giving up lucrative careers to do so, in order to establish the democratic advancement of the society, such as writing Ukraine's constitution, setting up an independent supreme court, teaching and funding journalists in independent journalism, creating think tanks and independent centres of academic study, teaching societal activism, etc.



Quote
The US is not into creating Democracy or a good life for Ukrainians, they just use them in a Proxy war against Russia.


Ukraine already is, and was, democratic.  Unlike Russia, it is not authoritarian.  That was thanks to seed money from the U.S., the EU, and George Soros, and the work of thousands of Ukrainians.

Quote
The Ukrainians who bought into this Maidan stupidity is now Learning a lesson. Ukraine will never join the EU or NATO.


Euromaidan was about corruption.  The EU was just the vehicle to stop that corruption.  Euromaidan was never about NATO.  Never, ever.  In fact, until Russia invaded Ukraine, a significant majority of Ukrainians never, ever, voted in favour of joining NATO.  That is why it is a false argument and always was.


Quote
They will be useful idiots until a New crisis somewhere else happens and the world will forget about them. What they will be left With however, is a big debt and oligarchs stealing the rest of their Resources along With their masters, the multinational Companies, sucking the country dry.


Your hero Putin hopes so.  Personally, I don't view multinationals as evil. 

Quote
Russia should never forget their hate.


You need to stop reading Russian propaganda.  There was never hate toward Russia.  Until Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  Even now, Russians who visit Ukraine would find no negative feelings toward them.  My Russian MIL has no problems living in fascist central, aka Kyiv.


Quote
The idiots who thought they could just get into the EU and be carried through life on a gold plate needs to learn their lesson! Europe has more than enough problems With it's own failuring countries as well as the freeloaders from the Baltics. Handing over billions upon billions to stupid Ukronazis will never be accepted. Leave than up to the Americans who apparently have unlimited dollars to spare.


There you go again with unfounded allegations.   How small is your world!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 10, 2015, 06:07:43 PM
Incidentally, you may want to have a look at the number of wars Russia has been involved in since the collapse of the USSR, versus how many all those vampire second tier countries (Baltics, Ukraine) have been.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on June 10, 2015, 07:02:07 PM
Quote
mendy .I asked again, "so, they know about Russian troops in Ukraine?"

"Absolutely," was his reply. He went on to explain that until stopped, they will never admit the truth because a lie is okay if it advances the state.

They know.

They understand.

one would have to think a reasonable amount of the population is aware i agree ,
question is even ''knowing '' about it , what can/are they able to effectivly do ??even if they so wish ?

i venture not much , its not in the mind set from my experience

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on June 10, 2015, 08:09:28 PM
I still discount it.  It's about as realisitc as Saddam's "WMD".


That is quite an indictment against the USA and our 'reasoning' for doing what we have in Iraq.  After all, the war in Iraq and aftermath have led to 500,000 dead at least...Russia is small potatoes compared to us...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War)


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 10, 2015, 10:48:13 PM
True, and I was always against the war in Ukraine.  But then, so were a significant number of Americans.  I don't see that same level of dissent among Russians.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 11, 2015, 02:18:52 AM
Ukraine already is, and was, democratic.  Unlike Russia, it is not authoritarian.  That was thanks to seed money from the U.S., the EU, and George Soros, and the work of thousands of Ukrainians.


Seed Money? Try seed debt. Interesting to see that George Soros, the warmonger and opportunist, is one of Your heroes. But what can one expect from a person that supports the nazi punishment Battalions which acts like ISIS in eastern Ukraine.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZew248XoC0

These are not Russians as far as I can tell.


You need to stop reading Russian propaganda. 

There you go again with unfounded allegations.   How small is your world!

You expect me to stop Reading whatever I read because you say I NEED to?
Unfounded allegations? Small world? Everything you wrote is unfounded. And I Guess my world is about the same size as Yours.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 11, 2015, 02:46:48 AM
I am really puzzled as to the confusion. Mr. Putin has made clear references to his thoughts on русский мир (Russian world) which are no secret.

When he, or those who have permission to speak and write for him, argue that modern day boundaries are invalid because there was no Yalta conference styled division of territory at the end of the Cold War, he is not being shy at explanations on why he considers that Ukrainian boundaries (and others) to be still open for debate.

His statements on Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, and the Baltic states come straight from this concept. He views the Russian world as having been broken up prematurely, and therefore it is Russia's right and heritage to reclaim what is theirs. We don't need to speculate; it is on Russian TV, newspapers, and magazines.

Follow the money? To an extent, yes, but not entirely. Accredited foreign and domestic journalists are invited, by rotation, to observe the opening of many government meetings. In Security Council discussions prior to dismissal of observers, there was no secret about the supposed amounts of money that would be saved if rental payments to Ukraine were no longer needed for the Black Sea fleet.

Curiously, as unmarked "little green men" poured out of unmarked helicopters over Crimea, none of the Security Council discussions seemed to count the cost of such actions were the rest of the world to protest. But, there was a great deal of discussion regarding the gains to the Russian economy if those rental payments were used elsewhere in the general budget.

As Mr Putin revealed recently on Russian television, the government actually paid for professional polls taken across Crimea to determine the outcome if a referendum were to be introduced regarding the future of Crimea. Significantly, this was done while events on Maidan were still in the earlier stages, and the outcome was far from being determined. Those polls revealed overwhelming support by key sectors, and thus it is understandable how and why the Tatar minority (true and original Crimeans) were sidelined during the process by shutting down their television station and newspaper, and refusing to allow Tatar leaders from reentry after they had attended meetings in Kyiv.

As added insurance, an overnight coup ousted a pro-Russian Crimea parliament, including its pro-Russian prime minister and cabinet, and the next morning a new prime minister and cabinet were introduced--without a single vote being cast by citizens of Crimea. So much for introducing democracy to the situation, albeit the Kremlin loves to tout the outcome of the referendum. We would be remiss if not pointing out that the new PM was a Russian citizen, not of Ukrainian citizenry, a violation of both the Crimean and Ukrainian constitutions.

Then just to be safe, the referendum ballot had only two questions. One was for the option to join Russia. The other was to succeed from Ukraine and be semi-independent under the protection of Russia. There was no option to remain as an autonomous republic within Ukraine. Was someone afraid of giving ethnic Ukrainians, a sizable minority, a viable option, too?

Again, following the money, the country of Ukraine represents the largest and most productive agricultural sector to the Eurasian Union. Belarus produces bountiful carrots (among other things) along with strong tractors, but Belorussian farm production capabilities are dwarfed by Ukraine's potential. When there were fears of Ukraine abandoning proposed membership with that Union, and instead perhaps moving toward the EU (which I never thought that they would be accepted as full members), there was widespread panic inside the Russian government.

Putin had always disliked Yanukovich personally, but at least he was somewhat aligned with Moscow. The prospect of a Ukrainian state aligned with Europe was too much for the Kremlin to bear. Yanukovich's rescue and transport out of Ukraine by Russian special forces was not only the rescue of an ally, but the removal of at least one irritation. The resulting shunning and sidelining of Yanukovich after his settling in Russia has been telling.

The eventual capture and annexation of Odessa (god forbid) will be of both historic and geographic importance. While Odessa has both Greek and Tatar roots, it was part of the Turkish empire for hundreds of years. That naturally begs an explanation from Russians as to why it is okay to reference modern day Russia back to the old Empire, but such seems not permitted when discussing the Turks and their successors.  :)

As to the nonsense of there being no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine, I am tired of explaining the obvious. The concept of tossing pearls to swine comes to mind immediately. If you ask most Russians, troops there are needed to "protect the Donbas children." Whether they are already there or not, despite massive video and photographic evidence, is something most Russians know, but are not yet willing to openly admit.

Those who live in the region however are no fools: whether pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian, they know what they see with their own eyes. Other than the paid Kremlin trolls, it is usually keyboard pounding Westerners who remain blinded, and thus to which I challenge to get off your friggin' fat ass and go see for yourself if you are so damn certain in your ignorance.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 11, 2015, 03:51:54 AM

Seed Money? Try seed debt. Interesting to see that George Soros, the warmonger and opportunist, is one of Your heroes. But what can one expect from a person that supports the nazi punishment Battalions which acts like ISIS in eastern Ukraine.


I don't recall ever posting Soros is one of my heroes.  However, there is no doubt the funds he used were instrumental in funding several important democratic institutions in Ukraine.


I also don't recall ever posting that anyone in Kyiv is my hero.  My history of posts would indicate quite the contrary.  But Ukrainians soldiers and battalions are hardly "ISIS" and that type of hyperbole merely demonstrates that you have already lost the argument.



Quote
You expect me to stop Reading whatever I read because you say I NEED to?
Unfounded allegations? Small world? Everything you wrote is unfounded. And I Guess my world is about the same size as Yours.


Your reading is propaganda.  You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for it.  It is laughable.


Your allegations are unfounded.  And no, the amount of vitriol you post indicates to me your inner world (that is the world I am referring to) is small.  Not particularly interesting to me.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 11, 2015, 05:37:43 AM


Your reading is propaganda.  You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for it.  It is laughable.

And I find Your propaganda laughable! Only it's not something to laugh about when Your propaganda supports atrocities. I take a stand against atrocities.

Your allegations are unfounded.  And no, the amount of vitriol you post indicates to me your inner world (that is the world I am referring to) is small.  Not particularly interesting to me.

Talk about losing the argument. Here you go on With personal insults (or try to). Different standards for me than you, it seems.

Not interesting for you? It wasn't meant to be interesting for you! I'm just stating my opinion. But it's certainly interesting enough for you to always spend a lot of time on my opinions. Your actions doesn't quite fit Your spin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Изумруд on June 11, 2015, 05:43:30 AM
And I find Your propaganda laughable! Only it's not something to laugh about when Your propaganda supports atrocities. I take a stand against atrocities.

Natural, have you ever lived in Russia?  Do you speak Russian?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 11, 2015, 05:49:29 AM
Pro Kiev battalion commander: 99% of people I know in Donbass hate Ukraine by now:

And he also talks about how the People now in charge are twice as corrupt as Yanukovitch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVLGQpjzUVE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVLGQpjzUVE)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on June 11, 2015, 07:26:34 AM

Your reading is propaganda.  You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for it.  It is laughable.


Your allegations are unfounded.  And no, the amount of vitriol you post indicates to me your inner world (that is the world I am referring to) is small.  Not particularly interesting to me.

Ouch!!!  :ROFL:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 11, 2015, 10:41:28 AM
About half the people in Donbas hate Kyiv now, because they have believed propaganda from the Kremlin- that Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis and the new government is fascist.

Here's a new article that supports my view about Putin's mindset. Putin is trying to come to grips with Kyiv's turn towards the West, democracy, and 'de-communization'. Russia has its cultural roots in Kyiv. St. Volodymyr. Puytin's roots have turned away from the old Soviet state, while taking steps to be more like the West. A civilized course. I think Putin feels like his own grandfather is rejecting him and his old Soviet ways...  On an emotional level, this must be deeply disturbing for him. Intellectually, I think he's in denial. If there is strength and validity in the old Soviet structure and philosophies, Putin would NOT need to disseminate all of the severe propaganda about alleged 'fascism'. see:
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/11/moscow-vladimir-the-great-statue-public-outcry (http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/11/moscow-vladimir-the-great-statue-public-outcry)
Prince Volodymyr was not a Communist. He became a Christian. And there's that first name. So now there will be a gigantic statue placed in Moscow. Putin might feel like this connects Russia with Ukraine in the present. Everyone in Russia knows Volodymyr was centered in Kyiv. So I think Putin is attempting to promote the propaganda that Moscow is more in tune with this historical figure, than Kyiv. Winning the propaganda war is crucial, because the truth is that Prince Vlad would have more in common with the new government in Kyiv, and would not see Moscow or Putin as a champion of Christianity. Putin criticizes the new government in Kyiv. The world must counter this with criticisms of Moscow's government. On the world stage, there is too little talk of political ideologies. Poroshenko should openly confront Putin about his political philosophies. Those are the real issues at the heart of this war.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 11, 2015, 11:04:55 AM
About half the people in Donbas hate Kyiv now, because they have believed propaganda from the Kremlin- that Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis and the new government is fascist.
.

PG--you have taken  a bit of a caning upthread- and I have no wish to join in on that.
I generally agree with the tenor of your posts--but you are getting in the habit of reaching conclusions that ignore all the other evidence and material available.
The part I quoted above is an example-- of a conclusion based on no actual evidence.While it is a possibility that some think like that-- half is way to big a stretch-and that is based on the material available.
I have had reason to constantly  disagree with BillyB making statements about theoretically possible scenarios that are at odds with the facts -- and to a degree you are falling into the same trap.
At a guess--you are not reading links posted by others( BillyB is the king of not reading other material)-- and much of that material would have shown you why some of your conclusions upthread are  in the not likely category.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 11, 2015, 11:18:19 AM
My conclusions are not based on anything here at RWD.
Instead, I mostly rely on a variety of news articles and youtube interviews.

How about a conversation about Putin's possible motives for placing a huge statue of Prince Volodymyr in a prominent location in Moscow?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 11, 2015, 12:05:04 PM
My conclusions are not based on anything here at RWD.
Instead, I mostly rely on a variety of news articles and youtube interviews.

How about a conversation about Putin's possible motives for placing a huge statue of Prince Volodymyr in a prominent location in Moscow?

There are some interesting links to material that gets to the roots of Putins evil aspirations and bigger picture issues.I have posted many( I am not alone in that!) that get to the heart of many issues.
As an example of what made me post today--perpetrating the myth that there is even 50% support in the Donbass cannot go unchallenged-the fact is the only credible polling showed little support for non Kiev regimes.
The Kremlin relies on repeating it's lies to try and give credibility to them-- and there are many examples of mainstream western media picking them up and running with them.
As an example-in the early days of the invasion-the lazy western media used what is now a totally discredited source in RT to report "news" in eastern Ukraine and on the Crimea - and it took months for them to get a more accurate picture of what was really going on.
At that time-average people in the west had quite the wrong idea about the conflict--which is exactly what the Kremlin wanted and is still trying to do today.
My overall point is this--your heart is 100% in the right place-no doubt about it- so  anything that diverts from the real issues or raises doubts by citing already disproven theories-- is not going to help Ukraine's cause.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 11, 2015, 08:52:17 PM
I hope you right about that. The 50% remark was not based on
a known poll. Just my general impression of
locals in Mariupol. I think there a lot of zombies there,
marching to the sound of Putin's propaganda.
I do respect your views on this.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 12, 2015, 12:34:55 PM
As I know some of those supposed "fascists" to which the Natural seems to unnaturally mistake, I have not met any racists or fascists among those groups. Most of the fascists I meet seem to be thriving quite nicely in a place where they are welcome--Russia.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 12, 2015, 12:54:06 PM
Yesterday both the First Channel and NTB ran a news story on how some 60 million German-Americans are ready to succeed from the USA to establish a pro-German Nazi nation.

After laughing myself off the sofa with the idea that major Russian networks would go live with such stupidity, and the reporters then go home to eat dinner and look in the mirror after reading such manufactured nonsense, I wondered where they came up with the "60 million" Germans living in the USA figure.

There is always a gullible public, and sure enough this afternoon an established Russian businessman mentioned the story and then asked me about it. With a straight face of all things. I was tempted to tell him that no, it is 60 million Scots who are ready to start wearing men's skirts to work, but decided to try and explain how will that claim it to anyone who knows about the USA.

I was sitting in the waiting area of Echo Moscow Radio and enjoying their view of the skyline via New Arbat, while passing the time by watching the evening news. On the First Channel, almost 24 minutes was devoted to Ukraine, a surprising amount of the video behind the anchors being stock footage of battles for the Donetsk airport months ago.

There was the obligatory coverage of Mr. Putin's meeting with the Pope with the explanation that the Pope "admires" Vova, although no documentation of that assertion was supplied.

Then came the nightly segment on the USA. I cannot think of a single US television network that devotes an entire 6-8 minute segment to Russia, or any other country for that matter, but apparently the on-going race riots in St Louis and Detroit, plus an expose of America's most filthy prisons is big news these days.

Oh, wait, you say that there are no on-going race riots in St Louis and Detroit? Hmm.....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 01:05:11 PM
As I know some of those supposed "fascists" to which the Natural seems to unnaturally mistake, I have not met any racists or fascists among those groups. Most of the fascists I meet seem to be thriving quite nicely in a place where they are welcome--Russia.

Haha, Yeah sure, spoken like a real radical. I know how you love Your Azov pals, even With their nazi slogans tatooed on their bodies you still deny what they are. Continue With Your long russophobe rants, I don't read much of it though.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf0vbGj9cO4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf0vbGj9cO4)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 12, 2015, 01:09:59 PM
I missed the part where you used facts to refute my post. Would you remind repeating those for me?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 01:15:09 PM
I missed the part where you used facts to refute my post. Would you remind repeating those for me?

Oh really? I didn't notice you using any facts either. But I Guess there's different standards for you, right? Besides, watch the video added, before Your response here, I will add.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I61tbiigWzQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I61tbiigWzQ)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 12, 2015, 02:18:39 PM
Ah, you are too dumb to notice. I get it.

Okay, go back and read about the evening newscast, which you labeled as a "rant" by the way. Now, please be so kind, even though it will be a mental stretch for you, to prove that a US network does dedicate a nightly segment to Russian news, validate the report that 60 million German-Americans are planning to succeed and begin a new Nazi nation, etc.

Can you handle that?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 12, 2015, 02:27:47 PM
I would just like to assign a post here to mention that I am entirely in favor of rooting out the Nazis in Ukraine.  Yes, this is a nation who lost enough of its citizens to populate five of its cities in WWII to the Nazi atrocities.  It would be Natural for the population to embrace the Nazi ideals and to create a government tied to such standards as death camps and a master race.

Anyone who has visited Ukraine, or, I daresay, lived there for a period of time will instantly recognize the Nazi tendencies of the Rada and the average Joe (Stalin) Sixpack on the streets.  After all, the lawmakers in this Rada who, with very few exceptions except those legislators who live in territory now claimed by Russia and its minions, are the same that were there under Yanukovych, surely had Nazi tendencies two years ago.

So, for all you baby killers and soldiers who hide behind babushkas so as not to get killed by the valiant insurgents, I congratulate you for hiding your Nazi sympathies from the West.  If you did not hide them so well, our intrepid reporters would identify you immediately.  You are too clever for us.  Fortunately we have members on this forum who will hunt you down and expose your true Natural tendencies.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 12, 2015, 02:28:45 PM
Ah, you are too dumb to notice. I get it.

Okay, go back and read about the evening newscast, which you labeled as a "rant" by the way. Now, please be so kind, even though it will be a mental stretch for you, to prove that a US network does dedicate a nightly segment to Russian news, validate the report that 60 million German-Americans are planning to succeed and begin a new Nazi nation, etc.

Can you handle that?

Most of the Germans I know have already succeeded in the United States.  I know of very few who would choose to secede. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 02:37:52 PM
Ah, you are too dumb to notice. I get it.


Ah, here we go again, With the personal insults and labelling, first Bo and now Mr. Boots on the ground. Hide Your nazi symphaties behind personal attacks all you want, I will not take you any more serious than before.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 12, 2015, 02:40:05 PM
Now, who is insulting who?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 02:40:53 PM
I would just like to assign a post here to mention that I am entirely in favor of rooting out the Nazis in Ukraine.  Yes, this is a nation who lost enough of its citizens to populate five of its cities in WWII to the Nazi atrocities.  It would be Natural for the population to embrace the Nazi ideals and to create a government tied to such standards as death camps and a master race.

Anyone who has visited Ukraine, or, I daresay, lived there for a period of time will instantly recognize the Nazi tendencies of the Rada and the average Joe (Stalin) Sixpack on the streets.  After all, the lawmakers in this Rada who, with very few exceptions except those legislators who live in territory now claimed by Russia and its minions, are the same that were there under Yanukovych, surely had Nazi tendencies two years ago.

So, for all you baby killers and soldiers who hide behind babushkas so as not to get killed by the valiant insurgents, I congratulate you for hiding your Nazi sympathies from the West.  If you did not hide them so well, our intrepid reporters would identify you immediately.  You are too clever for us.  Fortunately we have members on this forum who will hunt you down and expose your true Natural tendencies.

I'd say this is pretty passive agressive Jone, haha.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 02:42:03 PM
Now, who is insulting who?

Waiting for it, huh? As I've said before, I NEVER Draw first blood.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 12, 2015, 02:48:46 PM
Waiting for it, huh? As I've said before, I NEVER Draw first blood.


I know. You are against vaccination.  ;)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 02:52:29 PM

I know. You are against vaccination.  ;)

Hehe, at least I like Your sense of humour  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 12, 2015, 04:05:34 PM
I'd say this is pretty passive agressive Jone, haha.

Sorry.  I was attempting to be funny.  Doesn't always mean I am.  But you have to agree that the same people who were leading Ukraine under Yanu are the same guys who are there under Petro.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: The Natural on June 12, 2015, 04:37:34 PM
Sorry.  I was attempting to be funny.  Doesn't always mean I am.  But you have to agree that the same people who were leading Ukraine under Yanu are the same guys who are there under Petro.

Don't know these characters, but if they are, I'd Call them opportunists.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 12, 2015, 06:24:25 PM
Don't know these characters, but if they are, I'd Call them opportunists.


I thought they were NAZIs. So what is it? NAZIs or opportunists?


Please be a bit more specific.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on June 13, 2015, 05:17:34 AM

I thought they were NAZIs. So what is it? NAZIs or opportunists?


Please be a bit more specific.

Duh - they're obviously opportunistic Nazis!  :cluebat:  And where are they, by the way?  Admittedly I was only there for a couple of weeks, nearly five years ago, but I didn't see any evidence of Nazis or neo-Nazis in Ukraine.  Yes, I'm sure there were some there, as they are in every country, but they certainly weren't as obvious as the Kremlin would have you believe.

I wonder if the posters who have been there more recently have seen these people wandering around?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on June 17, 2015, 01:35:40 AM
On the 5th of June, the most beautiful Mrs. Mendeleyev sent her husband off to the grocery market to pick up some last minute items for her birthday celebration which would take place later that evening. On the list was some canned fish products, much of which comes from places like Latvia, Estonia, Finland, etc.

Just days prior the news media had reported on a story of food poisoning--at a children's orphanage, no less. The storyline is that a large delivery of canned seafood product was delivered to a Russian orphanage as a donation. A few days later, several of the children were said to be sick from tainted meat. That led the government to issue a ban on those products until a team of Russian scientists could travel to the plants to investigate. The news reports, and comments by the president to the media, blamed the product for the sick children. A day after arriving at the processing plants, the team of scientists issued a report that the facilities were insanitary.

Like other supposedly banned items, the fact that this remains on shelves is hardly a surprise. It is common for banned products to slip in from places like Kazakhstan and Belarus, sometimes repackaged and observed but unacknowledged. The bans on Western food products have placed a strain on family budgets and the government, while needing to shake their fists at the evil West, also needs to try to slow down inflation on food prices.

If such a ban were to be more strictly enforced it would impact Latvian fish producers who export around half of their catch to Russian supermarket chains.

All this was curious because I picked off the shelf, then placed in my basket, the banned products which along with other things soon appeared before the cashier. The cashier took my rubles and I went home with the banned product from a major supermarket chain. Later that evening we and our guests consumed those items along with other culinary delights.

So far, no one has been reported ill.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 17, 2015, 11:11:08 AM
I get ill reading your story, Mendy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 22, 2015, 03:36:43 PM
Russian propaganda is killing thousands, while creating a wall of hatred between the West and Russia. This is a horrible thing. It reminds me of the propaganda produced by the Nazi's- the 'us against them' mentality. The statements from one of Putin's security advisors are all lies. Well, he does mention one truth, that Russians are heading over to Ukraine when 'emotions go into play..'

What he fails to mention, is that those emotions are based on crazy lies from the Kremlin! Finally in the article he gets to his twisted reality:
....America's real goal is to destroy Russia.

This is ridiculous. If there are any Russians reading here, please believe me when I tell you that over here in America, nobody is speaking or thinking about destroying Russia. However, in the EU, and here in the USA, it does appear that Putin is telling lies, and threatening his neighbors. He looks paranoid. Why? Because the world around him prefers free trade, democracy, and wants good relations with other countries, without the kind of bullying that we see from the Kremlin. Let's face it, Ukrainians reject the old Soviet lifestyle. So do Georgians. Russians- can you imagine living in a country where you are not afraid to be outspoken about politics? Or about your leaders?
Can you imagine such a thing? Please don't follow your fuehrer into the abyss.
Putin is ruining Russia, and killing cousins. see:
http://news.yahoo.com/moscow-powerless-stop-russians-fighting-ukraine-091653782.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 22, 2015, 10:18:03 PM
Russian propaganda is killing thousands, while creating a wall of hatred between the West and Russia. This is a horrible thing. It reminds me of the propaganda produced by the Nazi's- the 'us against them' mentality. The statements from one of Putin's security advisors are all lies. Well, he does mention one truth, that Russians are heading over to Ukraine when 'emotions go into play..'

What he fails to mention, is that those emotions are based on crazy lies from the Kremlin! Finally in the article he gets to his twisted reality:
....America's real goal is to destroy Russia.

This is ridiculous. If there are any Russians reading here, please believe me when I tell you that over here in America, nobody is speaking or thinking about destroying Russia. However, in the EU, and here in the USA, it does appear that Putin is telling lies, and threatening his neighbors. He looks paranoid. Why? Because the world around him prefers free trade, democracy, and wants good relations with other countries, without the kind of bullying that we see from the Kremlin. Let's face it, Ukrainians reject the old Soviet lifestyle. So do Georgians. Russians- can you imagine living in a country where you are not afraid to be outspoken about politics? Or about your leaders?
Can you imagine such a thing? Please don't follow your fuehrer into the abyss.
Putin is ruining Russia, and killing cousins. see:
http://news.yahoo.com/moscow-powerless-stop-russians-fighting-ukraine-091653782.html

I happen to know quite a few Russians.  While many are currently very patriotic, with the anniversary of the end of WWII and the annexation of Krim, they are not overtly political, nor do they believe everything seen on TV.  However, there is a fringe element that is growing that is anti-American and very pro-Russian.  It is this very small segment that people should be worried about.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 27, 2015, 11:09:53 AM
When I write about Russians, I am referring to the Kremlin and supporters of the Kremlin. Those are the people responsible for all of the death and destruction. I feel the same way about Americans who thought the Vietnam War was a good endeavor. And the idiotic wars in Iraq. There are definitely good people all over the world. It is sad to see so many Russians thinking and feeling that America and the West want to destroy Russia. That is far from reality. If the Kremlin tells their people that the West is a threat, what can we do about it? I get the impression that most of the Russian population are like mindless cattle, willing to die for nothing, to protect themselves from an imaginary monster. It's insane. It's un-Christian. In Russia, it appears that fear trumps benevolence.
Title: Putin to Russia: We Will Bury Ourselves
Post by: JayH on June 28, 2015, 02:49:38 PM
This is an older story--but worth another read in the context of the last 12 months and what has become clearer.The part that seems to go unnoticed is Putin plan to "save" the Russian economy--ie-to create a  "war" based economy by creating employment in the armed forces and the necessary equipment industries.At an earlier time I advocated that Ukraine could use the western money coming in to "seed" its economy to revive it over a period of time in this way-thus the Russian invasion is counter productive to Putin in his aim to destroy the Ukrainian economy.
Russia is relying on oil/gas money to "seed" it's economy- and as such is very vulnerable to western pressure on oil prices and supply.

On the face of it, the story sounds familiar: Russian President Vladimir Putin’s nostalgia for the greatness of the Soviet Union, his crackdowns on opponents, his defiant insistence that Russia can make its own way in the world. All these have been constants in his 14-year-long rule.


Putin to Russia: We Will Bury Ourselves
, Putin has embarked on something that has never been done before. For the first time since the fall of the Soviet Union, the Kremlin is overtly campaigning to cut Russia off from the world. Moreover, Putin is building a new state ideology based on the rejection of Western systems and values, and the demonization of internal enemies and traitors.

Moscow’s descent into self-isolation has been precipitous. Over the past three months, the Kremlin and its loyal legislators in the State Duma have brought the number of Russian state employees banned from leaving the country for security reasons to nearly 5 million; they have introduced criminal penalties for criticizing the state-approved version of history; they have introduced compulsory registration for citizens with dual nationality and forcibly labeled all nongovernmental organizations (NGOs) with foreign funding “foreign agents”; and they have made bloggers subject to draconian “anti-extremism” laws that make promoting anti-government protests a criminal offense.



Senior officials have discussed restricting access to Facebook, Skype, YouTube and Twitter, and have mooted setting up a Russian-only Internet. The surviving handful of independent websites and an Internet-based TV station have been shuttered—and when one site, grani.ru, challenged the ban, a Moscow court ruled that the authorities “did not have to explain to the websites why they were blocked


http://www.newsweek.com/2014/06/20/putins-paranoia-card-254513.html
Title: Russian Trolls Deceiving American Public and Now They’re Covering Their Tracks
Post by: JayH on June 28, 2015, 11:59:01 PM
The information keeps coming- the more time that goes by -the more information is coming to light. The contempt Russia is showing to the truth is so dangerous in it's execution-- it is about time western countries woke up and did something about it.

Even today--on this forum-under the heading "Russian News" -- a member here has posted more Russian lies over  the shooting down of MH17- it is NOT "news"-- but an attempt to portray propaganda lies as news.

Wake up people and see how this is an abuse of the truth.

Below is another story that illustrates the depths that the Kremlin is going to to perpetrate Russian lying-- and the resultant confusion created must have them laughing themselves silly at how stupid western media is .

The Agency
From a nondescript office building in St. Petersburg, Russia, an army of well-paid “trolls” has tried to wreak havoc all around the Internet — and in real-life American communities.

Around 8:30 a.m. on Sept. 11 last year, Duval Arthur, director of the Office of Homeland Security and Emergency Preparedness for St. Mary Parish, Louisiana, got a call from a resident who had just received a disturbing text message. “Toxic fume hazard warning in this area until 1:30 PM,” the message read. “Take Shelter. Check Local Media and columbiachemical.com.”

St. Mary Parish is home to many processing plants for chemicals and natural gas, and keeping track of dangerous accidents at those plants is Arthur’s job. But he hadn’t heard of any chemical release that morning. In fact, he hadn’t even heard of Columbia Chemical. St. Mary Parish had a Columbian Chemicals plant, which made carbon black, a petroleum product used in rubber and plastics. But he’d heard nothing from them that morning, either. Soon, two other residents called and reported the same text message. Arthur was worried: Had one of his employees sent out an alert without telling him?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/07/magazine/the-agency.html?_r=2

Some follow up of earlier post-- this can help the sceptical get a better idea of what Ukraine is fighting--in fact-fighting for the rest of the world !

Russian Trolls Are Deceiving the American Public and Now They’re Covering Their Tracks

Earlier this month, Adrian Chen penned a disturbing article for the New York Times Magazine outlining how online trolls based in Russia were attempting to manipulate Americans through false media and political misdirection. These Russian trolls are now attempting to discredit his story by wiping it from the internet.

Chen’s piece, called “The Agency“, details a massive operation with ties to the Russian government that perpetuates false news stories, propaganda and general trolling against anti-Russian rhetoric:
Chen had discovered a lead through documents from Russia that were hacked by Anonymous International. The hacked messages included emails from an organization called the Internet Research Agency — the same group employing trolls in Russia.

The emails revealed a number of user names for an operation in English. Chen then began the long process of cross-referencing, and he did find a connection. So, he decided to travel to Russia and confirm his theory, which is when his story shifts from odd to frightening.

While researching and validating his findings, Russian media outlets with vague connections to the Internet Research Agency and the Kremlin, began an operation to discredit him. After he unknowingly met a Neo-Nazi, the Russian press vilified him, saying he was recruiting for the U.S. They even went so far as to create a propaganda video (which proved his entire trip had been under surveillance).

Chen’s chilling story became all the more disturbing when his meticulous sourcing of troll accounts, and even the damning YouTube video, were wiped from the internet. All three of the Facebook pages Chen mentioned as part of the trolling network made up of mostly politically-motivated accounts (Spread Your Wings, Art Gone Conscious, and Celebrities Against Obama) mysteriously disappeared in the past week. Their Twitter counterparts also vanished.

http://www.ijreview.com/2015/06/335533-russian-trolls-deceiving-american-public-outed-nyt-now-theyre-covering-tracks/?utm_content=buffercd7a8&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 29, 2015, 08:51:52 AM
Conversation: The U.S. Media’s Misleading Portrayal of Russia (http://stratfor.us4.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=74786417f9554984d314d06bd&id=12ed5d7bd6&e=3142888219)


...Lauren: The way that the American media has put it out there is that Russia is being the aggressor, and instead we're seeing Russia be very reactive instead. NATO starts to build up, then Russia starts to build up. The United States helps support the revolution that took place in Ukraine this past year, Russia then takes Crimea and goes into eastern Ukraine. So it really is a reaction to what is taking place out of the United States and out of NATO....

From Straford.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 29, 2015, 08:56:13 AM
Conversation: The U.S. Media’s Misleading Portrayal of Russia (http://stratfor.us4.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=74786417f9554984d314d06bd&id=12ed5d7bd6&e=3142888219)


...Lauren: The way that the American media has put it out there is that Russia is being the aggressor, and instead we're seeing Russia be very reactive instead. NATO starts to build up, then Russia starts to build up. The United States helps support the revolution that took place in Ukraine this past year, Russia then takes Crimea and goes into eastern Ukraine. So it really is a reaction to what is taking place out of the United States and out of NATO....

Steamer,

You agree that Russia went into Eastern Ukraine?  That is the first I've seen you post that you agree that the Russians are there.

From Straford.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 29, 2015, 09:10:35 AM
Maybe
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 09:19:13 AM
LOL.  Despite the fact Russian soldiers are going home in caskets (reported by Russian media, and Russian opposition, even the odd Russian mother whose army son died), it's a qualified "maybe".


The problem with Lauren Goodrich's analysis is it ignores the aspirations of Ukrainians.  Same with all the pro Putinists here.


The idea that the U.S. created Euromaidan is laughable.  If the U.S. had wanted Ukraine in its orbit, it would have been in the American orbit in 1992.  This view is also extremely disrespectful to Ukrainians who, tired of corruption even they didn't want to tolerate, demonstrated.  Peacefully.  Whether they have created change is a very different matter.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 09:26:02 AM
Let's also remember that at no time before the invasion of Crimea did Ukrainians ever support joining NATO.  Even during Euromaidan, the biggest percentage of support for NATO was 15%.


The invasion was predicated on the fiction of "protecting" Russian speakers.  Notwithstanding the fact Russian speakers were never in danger in Ukraine, they had the right to speak Russian, to attend Russian schools.  How many Ukrainians have that right in Russia?  They don't even have that right now in Crimea, where not only their existing schools, but their newspapers and their churches are being closed by the government.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 29, 2015, 09:41:40 AM
Let's also remember that at no time before the invasion of Crimea did Ukrainians ever support joining NATO.  Even during Euromaidan, the biggest percentage of support for NATO was 15%.


The invasion was predicated on the fiction of "protecting" Russian speakers.  Notwithstanding the fact Russian speakers were never in danger in Ukraine, they had the right to speak Russian, to attend Russian schools.  How many Ukrainians have that right in Russia?  They don't even have that right now in Crimea, where not only their existing schools, but their newspapers and their churches are being closed by the government.


Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 29, 2015, 10:05:16 AM

Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.

Steamer,

Please show evidence of these allegations.  I remember a country where the leader spoke in Russian because his Ukrainian was so poor that people couldn't understand him.  I have been to Ukraine repeatedly before Euromaidan and all of the people that I knew spoke Russian as their first language.  That did not mean that they wanted to be part of Russia, just that they were taught that language since birth.

I agree with you that there is a segment of Ukrainian society that wants only Ukrainian spoken in the country.  But that is not the majority as we have seen over the course of the past year and a half.

Pardon my ignorance on these matters.  I look to your recollections back to your quotes.  Could you provide us with evidence that Russian language was banned and that Russian language schools were forced to shut down?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 10:47:22 AM

Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.

Pure BS.

In Donbas, most of the schools were Russian language schools.  In Kyiv, one could choose whether one attended a Russian language school, or a Ukrainian language school.  Even in L'viv, epicentre of "bourgeois nationalist fascist Ukraine", students can attend Russian language schools, even today. 

Crimea was self governing, so their region chose the language in which their students were educated.

What did change during Yushchenko's presidency was that Ukrainian became the official language of Ukraine, and students had to study Ukrainian, even if they attended a Russian school.  The other change was that all official government documents were prepared in Ukrainian.  However, during this time, the language of business remained Russian. 

Students did not necessarily have to study Ukrainian in Ukraine during Soviet times, but students then could attend either a Russian language, or a Ukrainian language school.  The latter was a career killer.

Go to Kyiv today, and  you will still hear Russian spoken on the streets.  Or surzhik.  The difference from twenty years ago is that if you ask someone something in Ukrainian now, you will be answered in Ukrainian, rather than getting a smirk and a response in surzhik.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on June 29, 2015, 10:51:05 AM
I'm sorry Bo.  Enlighten me (and probably many in the forum).  What is surzhik?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 10:58:31 AM
Steamer,

Please show evidence of these allegations.  I remember a country where the leader spoke in Russian because his Ukrainian was so poor that people couldn't understand him.  I have been to Ukraine repeatedly before Euromaidan and all of the people that I knew spoke Russian as their first language.  That did not mean that they wanted to be part of Russia, just that they were taught that language since birth.

I agree with you that there is a segment of Ukrainian society that wants only Ukrainian spoken in the country.  But that is not the majority as we have seen over the course of the past year and a half.

Pardon my ignorance on these matters.  I look to your recollections back to your quotes.  Could you provide us with evidence that Russian language was banned and that Russian language schools were forced to shut down?

He will not be able to provide that because it is inaccurate.

Every Ukrainian president, other than Kravchuk, has spoken poor Ukrainian, or Russified Ukrainian.  Including Poroshenko.

Yushchenko relearned Ukrainian.  Tymoshenko (though not a president, but an ardent "nationalist") spoke no Ukrainian, learned it later, speaks with Russian intonations and uses Russian phrasing.

After the collapse, there was a move to enforce Ukrainian language.  Given over a century of policies of Russification, to the extent of starving off ethnic Ukrainians and repopulating their lands with ethnic Russians, moving Russians into positions of power in Western Ukraine where they lorded it over the locals, and ruling Western Ukraine from Moscow, I, personally, supported these policies.  You who have no ties to the region and lack a knowledge of the brutal history and policies of Russification, complete with sending Ukrainian writers and poets to gulags for the "crime" of wanting to speak their language, and where speaking Ukrainian was a career killing act, can lament all you wish the desire for Ukrainians to be free to speak their language, and to build it in their country.  But, I don't see Russians giving their ethnic minorities, including the over 7 million Ukrainians who live there, anywhere near the linguistic rights Russians have in Ukraine. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 11:02:02 AM
Surzhik is a mix of Russian and Ukrainian.  That is the language most Ukrainians who are not native Russian speakers, particularly escapees (villagers moving to the cities) speak.  It is neither Russian nor Ukrainian.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 11:27:35 AM
Article 10 of Ukraine's Constitution (1996) -

Quote
In Ukraine, the free development, use and protection of Russian, and other languages of national minorities of Ukraine, is guaranteed.

As I have posted previously, Ukraine's constitution was highly influenced, and also partly drafted, by diaspora Ukrainians (Canadian lawyers), so its language rights are modelled on linguistic rights guaranteed by Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms.   

As for the Russian that is spoken, elsewhere, a RW posted a youtube link of the "fascist Ukrainians" on the outskirts of a Donbas village before the war had started.  She used as her rationale the fact these "fascists" were speaking Ukrainian.  But, they weren't.  They were speaking Russian exactly as it is spoken in Donbas.  I assumed that was the case, and confirmed it with the better half, who traveled all over the FSU, and if asked, can give you a breakdown of different accents across the former USSR, and the different slang used across Ukraine.  He can mimic most of the accents too, as he often does for FSU people here, who will laugh and tell him "That is exactly how the men in my city/village speak.". 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 12:55:12 PM
This is what activated Ukrainian language rights in L'viv.

http://www.ukrweekly.com/old/archive/2000/270010.shtml

Two Russian youths were arrested for the murder.  One inexplicably left the country.  The charges against the other, the son of Lviv's deputy police chief (all the police in the region after the 1960's were ethnic Russians in the Soviet period, before then, they were mostly Jewish), were dropped.  To this date, no one has been prosecuted for Mr. Bilozir's murder.

Ivasiuk, referred to in the article, was a Ukrainian composer from Chernivtsi.  He composed a lot of popular Ukrainian pop songs, his biggest hit being "Chervona Ruta".  He was killed, allegedly by the KGB (likely) for his nationalist views.  No one has ever been charged with his murder.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on June 29, 2015, 01:25:25 PM
I happened to be browsing about he internet, when this article suddenly appeared on the Huffington Post. 


In reading, it seems that what is at issue is while Ukraine is feverishly attempting to garner international support, they are also cracking down on free speech and rewriting history.....


Ukraine: World War II Fiasco Leads to Public Relations Disaster and Thorny Questions for Kiev and Foreign Diaspora

For Kiev, winning the public relations war against Vladimir Putin would seem to be a no-brainer. For a year now, the Kremlin has conducted a thinly-disguised war of aggression in eastern Ukraine resulting in the deaths of thousands. Yet Kiev seems intent on squandering any international public support it might have had amidst a bizarre crackdown on free speech and censorship of......

[size=78%]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nikolas-kozloff/ukraine-world-war-ii-fias_b_7689804.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nikolas-kozloff/ukraine-world-war-ii-fias_b_7689804.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)[/size][/size] Fathertime! [size=78%]

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 01:35:40 PM
Poroshenko has already vowed to amend that law.  However, the article is a little inaccurate.  The law, tied to one which banned the communist party and communist symbols, recognized UPA and OUN.  It did not outlaw criticism of them.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 29, 2015, 02:26:35 PM
Pardon my ignorance on these matters.  I look to your recollections back to your quotes.  Could you provide us with evidence that Russian language was banned and that Russian language schools were forced to shut down?


I'm looking for it. I remember articles and the like that said these things and people being told that they would lose their jobs if they spoke Russian.
I'm trying to find it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 29, 2015, 02:28:33 PM
Conversation: The U.S. Media’s Misleading Portrayal of Russia (http://stratfor.us4.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=74786417f9554984d314d06bd&id=12ed5d7bd6&e=3142888219)


...Lauren: The way that the American media has put it out there is that Russia is being the aggressor, and instead we're seeing Russia be very reactive instead. NATO starts to build up, then Russia starts to build up. The United States helps support the revolution that took place in Ukraine this past year, Russia then takes Crimea and goes into eastern Ukraine. So it really is a reaction to what is taking place out of the United States and out of NATO....

From Straford.

The 2 proponents are so stupid ridiculous and you quote as supporting what? Being in ridiculous denial of an obvious reality! Their comments are not even the current Kremlin line of BS-so far superceded in Kremlin fiction and in reality.
It seems a noticeable aspect of pro-rus posters here that they get a notion and never move from it-repeating clearly discredited nonsense that is far removed from reality.

For the record Steamer--have you ever been in Ukraine? If so-when were you last there?
I am guessing the answer is never? Or at least not in this century!
Like other midless pro-russers it seems to be a theme-never been there-the disconnect seems a consistent theme
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 29, 2015, 02:40:42 PM

I'm looking for it. I remember articles and the like that said these things and people being told that they would lose their jobs if they spoke Russian.
I'm trying to find it.

Given that in Eastern Ukraine to this day, most everyone speaks Russian, how accurate could that have been?

Even in Kyiv, which is far more "Ukrainian" than even Kharkiv, Russian is the most common language spoken, and my relatives, for example, have never used Ukrainian either at home or at work.  Therefore, I doubt rather highly the accuracy of any such "report".

There was a negative attitude toward Russian in Western Ukraine, because even in the 1980's there was intense Russification there, and all leading positions were held by Russians ferried in by Moscow, as the locals were viewed as unreliable.  After the collapse of the USSR, there were a lot of disputes not only about language, but also, who owned the churches, as the Orthodox Church had confiscated Greek Catholic churches after WWII.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 29, 2015, 04:56:00 PM
Conversation: The U.S. Media’s Misleading Portrayal of Russia (http://stratfor.us4.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=74786417f9554984d314d06bd&id=12ed5d7bd6&e=3142888219)


...Lauren: The way that the American media has put it out there is that Russia is being the aggressor, and instead we're seeing Russia be very reactive instead. NATO starts to build up, then Russia starts to build up. The United States helps support the revolution that took place in Ukraine this past year, Russia then takes Crimea and goes into eastern Ukraine. So it really is a reaction to what is taking place out of the United States and out of NATO....

From Straford.

This is ridiculous. The Crimean Anschluss began with Putin saying the rebellion in Crimea was the result of a grass roots movement. He said there were no Russian military being sent to Crimea. He said those soldiers had gotten their uniforms from military stores. Ha. He later admitted that the Little Green men were, in fact, Russian soldiers from Russia. Lesson learned: Putin lies about the presence of Russian soldiers. He has done the same thing in eastern Ukraine. The leaders for the rebels, Borodai and Girkin were both Russian citizens. Yes- this makes Russia and the Kremlin look like aggressors. Also, take a look at the Vice interview with
Zakharchenko. He's got Putin's photo on his wall. He tells us:
     “We will liberate all of our compatriots. It’s easy to outflank it(Mariupol) and they will surrender. Don’t forget, our mothers and our sisters live there, so don’t make us out to be bloodthirsty beasts,” he said.

    Any intelligent person would see that as an aggressive statement, not a defensive posture. He's the leader of the new DPR. He doesn't care if Mariupol wants to remain Ukrainian.

BTW, Boethius wrote. '...Yanukovych unilaterally changed the constitution (which he was not legally allowed to do, and which in and of itself, was a violation of his oath of office), and replaced the supreme court judges with judges handpicked by him...'

Exactly! and this should be held up to Putin whenever he blabbers about the illegal 'coup'. Yanukovych was a criminal prior to the Revolution.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 29, 2015, 05:18:22 PM
Russia is not the aggressor? Ha.

Zakharchenko:
“...We thought, still think and will think of ourselves as a part of the Soviet Union, of Russia..."

Ukraine is NOT Russia. Ukraine is NOT the Soviet Union. Putin does not respect that concept, that reality. For his own self-esteem, he finds it necessary to create a new state where he is the new improved Brezhnev, or the new soviet Czar. His ego can't imagine a more humble self-image. He's ruining Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on June 29, 2015, 05:53:44 PM

I'm looking for it. I remember articles and the like that said these things and people being told that they would lose their jobs if they spoke Russian.
I'm trying to find it.

Try the RT website..
You'll probably find those crackpot articles you are seeking as well as articles about the faked moon landings.
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on June 29, 2015, 06:21:29 PM
Try the RT website..
You'll probably find those crackpot articles you are seeking as well as articles about the faked moon landings.
 :popcorn:

What?  The Russian ones in 1968 that pre-dated Apollo 11?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 29, 2015, 08:25:39 PM
Try the RT website..
You'll probably find those crackpot articles you are seeking as well as articles about the faked moon landings.
 :popcorn:

He could join his fellow pro-Rus crackpots on another forum who are busy telling the world that 9/11 was faked ! :deadhorse:

 :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 30, 2015, 05:00:21 AM

Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.


I was wrong.


What I found was that things like this were attempted by various people and groups but not implemented because it was impractical or for other reasons. I probably assumed that if it was attempted it was put into law.
My apologies to Bo.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 30, 2015, 07:06:11 AM

Bo, you're just making this stuff up as you go.
I remember very well 5 or 10 years ago Russian language being banned and Russian schools being forced to shut down in UA. Every manner of discrimination against Russians was allowed to maintain the purity of Ukraine.


Bullshevik!!


MY SIL has been a teacher for almost 30 years at the same school she went to. In the Soviet days it was a school which gave utmost importance to learning foreign languages and they still have that as their core function. Still, besides the foreign classes, everything else is taught in Russian. Never I heard her say that they were forcing them to dump the Russian language.


But of course, you will say she is lying in order for you to stick to your "reality."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 30, 2015, 07:09:04 AM
Contrary to Steamer's assertion, the failure to implement such laws was not due to impracticality.  It is because a)  they can't be, due to the guarantee of language rights in Ukraine's constitution; and b)  the population would not support this.  Even the majority of politicians, almost all of whom speak Russian (or surzhik) not Ukrainian, in their daily lives, would not support this.


This is an example of the propaganda prevalent about Ukraine that is accepted as fact.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on June 30, 2015, 08:07:12 AM

I was wrong.


What I found was that things like this were attempted by various people and groups but not implemented because it was impractical or for other reasons. I probably assumed that if it was attempted it was put into law.
My apologies to Bo.

You can't sit in the western world and skim articles about Ukraine on the internet and then 'knowingly' proclaim fictions such as 'no Russian language' schools exist in UA. Well, Steamer, I reside in that supposed 'bastion of fascism', Lviv, with my Russian speaking fiancee and future stepdaughter. On May 30, I was happy to attend stepdaughter's graduation ceremony at her Russian language secondary school. Surprisingly, all of the graduation speakers spoke in Russian! My fiancee and her daughter are Russian speakers who were forced to flee their home of Luhansk by the invading foreign (mostly native Russian) hordes who swept in, illegally, last summer. These are facts, Steamer, not something I dreamed up browsing Russian propaganda sources, such as RT, from the far away safety of my secondary home in the Rockies. My fiancee tells me there is a Russian language school in every education district in Lviv.

It was gracious of you to apologize to Bo. I credit you for that. I live in the reality of present day Ukraine; it is absolutely nothing like the Russophile propaganda machine paints it to be. Steamer, this is a free country, in some ways more free and capitalist than the politically correct and increasingly socialized US is. Every time I return to the US, which is often, I am sensing that, for me, my home country is a foreign country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 30, 2015, 08:30:40 AM
You can't sit in the western world and skim articles about Ukraine on the internet and then 'knowingly' proclaim fictions such as 'no Russian language' schools exist in UA. Well, Steamer, I reside in that supposed 'bastion of fascism', Lviv, with my Russian speaking fiancee and future stepdaughter. On May 30, I was happy to attend stepdaughter's graduation ceremony at her Russian language secondary school. Surprisingly, all of the graduation speakers spoke in Russian! My fiancee and her daughter are Russian speakers who were forced to flee their home of Luhansk by the invading foreign (mostly native Russian) hordes who swept in, illegally, last summer. These are facts, Steamer, not something I dreamed up browsing Russian propaganda sources, such as RT, from the far away safety of my secondary home in the Rockies. My fiancee tells me there is a Russian language school in every education district in Lviv.

It was gracious of you to apologize to Bo. I credit you for that. I live in the reality of present day Ukraine; it is absolutely nothing like the Russophile propaganda machine paints it to be. Steamer, this is a free country, in some ways more free and capitalist than the politically correct and increasingly socialized US is. Every time I return to the US, which is often, I am sensing that, for me, my home country is a foreign country.


CC3, he is not alone.


Read this a friend sent me.


The New York Times' Orwellian View of Ukraine


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Steamer on June 30, 2015, 10:51:14 AM

CC3, he is not alone.


Read this a friend sent me.


The New York Times' Orwellian View of Ukraine


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine (http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine)


Thanks Muzh,
That's the most honest article I've ever read about the coverage of the crisis in Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 30, 2015, 10:57:46 AM
As far as coverage goes, I recommend that people communicate with individuals in Ukraine, and the more the better. There are lots of Facebook posts that I read, posted by all sorts of people there. And there are classic youtube interviews, with people in the breakaway regions, locals everywhere- like the elderly lady who confronts a rebel officer in Shyrokyne. Insightful.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 30, 2015, 11:08:54 AM

Thanks Muzh,
That's the most honest article I've ever read about the coverage of the crisis in Ukraine.

Really?  The first statement suggests Euromaidan activists wished to "violently overthrow" Yanukovych.  Was he assassinated?  Were any members of his entourage assassinated?  Nope.  But he, and his entourage, did shoot largely unarmed protesters.

Where was this coup against Russians, as alleged? 

Where is the evidence Putin presented?  I mean real evidence.

How honest can such an assessment be?   It is cr@p.

But, at least now I know why you would believe that Russians are on the verge of extinction in Ukraine, LOL.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on June 30, 2015, 11:24:53 AM
What is happening in Ukraine right now is because Russia, not the U.S., has a strategic interest in controlloing Ukraine's political affairs.  In the past, it did so with economic coercion.  With Euromaidan, that would no longer work.  Hence, military coercion.  The goal is to control Ukraine's domestic and foreign affairs.  Sorry, but the US has no such policy, or strategy, vis a vis Ukraine.

You will continue to see war because it is in Russia's interests, not American interests, for all of the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts to be part of the so called "DNR" and "LNR".  Notwithstanding the fact the populations in these regions do not support the DNR or LNR.  So, continue to support the warmongering Russians and their destruction of Ukraine for their own purposes, cheered on by 80% of their bloodthirsty populace.  Just don't lay the blame for Putin's war on the United States.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on June 30, 2015, 11:26:54 AM
Exactly! That is why I created this topic:
The Propaganda War
As a result of propaganda, thousands have died in Ukraine.
And I've seen quite a few youtube interviews, where rebels constantly talk about the Ukrainian Nazis in the West. The 'coup' and other twisted realities....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on June 30, 2015, 01:34:43 PM

CC3, he is not alone.


Read this a friend sent me.


The New York Times' Orwellian View of Ukraine


http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine

Utter trash from an extreme leftist!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on June 30, 2015, 01:53:29 PM
Utter trash from an extreme leftist!


The best part was calling The New York Times a paper supporting "neo-cons". That was funny!


HDL
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on June 30, 2015, 02:33:56 PM
Utter trash from an extreme leftist!


With all due respect, I'm a left-leaning person and I resent you labeling that ignorant moron as a leftist.  ;)


Now, if you want to call him a spineless Putler cocksucker, I'd have no qualms about it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on June 30, 2015, 05:59:24 PM
CC3, he is not alone.

Read this a friend sent me.

The New York Times' Orwellian View of Ukraine

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/31565-the-new-york-times-orwellian-view-of-ukraine

Utter trash from an extreme leftist  idiot!

Fixed that for you!  There are, of course, plenty of other terms by which this "reporter" (he's no journalist) could be described, but this is supposed to be a family-friendly forum!  :o

The further I got into that "article," the further my eyebrows went up.  It's going to take a while for them to return from the crown of my head.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on July 02, 2015, 01:39:27 AM

With all due respect, I'm a left-leaning person and I resent you labeling that ignorant moron as a leftist.  ;)


Now, if you want to call him a spineless Putler cocksucker, I'd have no qualms about it.

OK  :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 02, 2015, 07:03:19 AM
A good article on the reality of the Russian language in Ukraine.   This is why the view that the Russian language was ever in threat in Ukraine is ridiculous -


 http://www.politico.eu/article/crisis-in-ukraine-talk-shows-in-language-war/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on July 02, 2015, 06:16:21 PM
A good article on the reality of the Russian language in Ukraine.   This is why the view that the Russian language was ever in threat in Ukraine is ridiculous -


 http://www.politico.eu/article/crisis-in-ukraine-talk-shows-in-language-war/

Very interesting but, once again, the troll army strikes in the Comments!  :cluebat:  There are only a handful which don't appear to have emanated from that wonderful building in St Petersburg - interesting that one is by from someone whose Russian-speaking family live in Zaporozhe, and another is from a Russian who actually seems to understand the FULL (if abbreviated) story of Russian history.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on July 03, 2015, 06:10:09 PM
Jone:
Quote
However, there is a fringe element that is growing that is anti-American and very pro-Russian.  It is this very small segment that people should be worried about.

Jone, rarely do you and I disagree. However, the fringe has moved to the mainstream. Today you'll have to search for a Russian who has not gulped down much of the kool aid. The news, from TV to print to radio, is dominated by a constant beating of the war drums. it is incessant, 24-7. The average person on the street wonders when America/NATO will invade.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larry1 on July 03, 2015, 06:24:03 PM
Jone:
Jone, rarely do you and I disagree. However, the fringe has moved to the mainstream. Today you'll have to search for a Russian who has not gulped down much of the kool aid. The news, from TV to print to radio, is dominated by a constant beating of the war drums. it is incessant, 24-7. The average person on the street wonders when America/NATO will invade.

At university I studied European history, among other things. Germany had no really free elections after 1934. I assumed that a lot of Germans did not support Nazi actions; after all Germany was a civilized country. After seeing this crisis I have reconsidered my earlier opinion on Germans supporting Nazi actions. When we read Hitler's speeches we know that they are full of the most absurd propaganda.  But we know that only in hindsight.  Germans in those days didn't have the benefit of hindsight. I think most of them believed the Nazi propaganda, just as most Russians today seem to believe their government's propaganda.
Title: The Propaganda War
Post by: 2tallbill on July 03, 2015, 06:56:13 PM
I think most of them believed the Nazi propaganda, just as most Russians today
seem to believe their government's propaganda.

With Germany, maybe a majority believed in the propaganda but there were always a
sizable minority who were scared into silence.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on July 04, 2015, 04:21:45 AM
Jone:
Jone, rarely do you and I disagree. However, the fringe has moved to the mainstream. Today you'll have to search for a Russian who has not gulped down much of the kool aid. The news, from TV to print to radio, is dominated by a constant beating of the war drums. it is incessant, 24-7. The average person on the street wonders when America/NATO will invade.

Mende, may I respectfully submit: Get out while the getting is good!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on July 04, 2015, 10:49:26 AM
I will be spending the bulk of the next three months in Russia.  In St. Petersburg and Ekaterinburg.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on July 04, 2015, 11:59:15 AM
A beautiful history lesson. It covers the language issue, political history, GHW Bush's goal of keeping the Soviet Union together, and talks about why Putin wants Ukraine's new government to fail...
http://www.newsweek.com/why-putin-afraid-ukraine-332276
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 04, 2015, 12:16:53 PM
Posted previously.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18356.msg403639#msg403639
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on July 04, 2015, 10:10:10 PM
A beautiful history lesson. It covers the language issue, political history, GHW Bush's goal of keeping the Soviet Union together, and talks about why Putin wants Ukraine's new government to fail...
http://www.newsweek.com/why-putin-afraid-ukraine-332276
Posted previously.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18356.msg403639#msg403639

It is worth reading and re-reading-- and re-reading!!
This is as good a series of examples of people that seems so typical when you talk with Ukrainians-- and the author explains it very well.Dealing with some personalised history should be compulsory reading for all forum members  to help understand more of Ukraine-- and how Ukrainians see Russia.
While I am at it-- teh oft promoted idea that it is only western Ukraine that holds many of the Ukrainian identity ideas-is also covered and effectively refuted(again) here!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on July 05, 2015, 09:20:52 AM
posted previously? oops... my apologies.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on July 05, 2015, 09:50:26 AM
Kravchuk:

“I was given the country when it was part of the Soviet Union and worked toward independence. My life would be in vain if they take this land and that is why there is no alternative but to fight,” he said.
Ukraine has been a “hostage” to Russia ever since independence, and has been “occupied” by the Russians, economically, investment wise and trade wise for a long time, he said. “They took away the best assets. They have occupied Ukraine step by step gradually then eventually at the top. It used to be they controlled only trade and the economy but then it became the political and military leadership.”
article:
http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/diane-francis-kravchuk-says-ukraine-still-fighting-western-ignorance-and-russian-aggression-392720.html
 Op-ed (http://www.kyivpost.com/opinion/op-ed/) — by Diane Francis (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/author/diane-francis/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on July 06, 2015, 12:05:45 AM
Jone:
Jone, rarely do you and I disagree. However, the fringe has moved to the mainstream. Today you'll have to search for a Russian who has not gulped down much of the kool aid. The news, from TV to print to radio, is dominated by a constant beating of the war drums. it is incessant, 24-7. The average person on the street wonders when America/NATO will invade.


So what is your view of Westerners who have the same views (i.e., America is the "Great Satan", ready to swallow up a vulnerable Russia, blah, blah, blah)?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on July 06, 2015, 12:49:43 AM
Bo, I see that view mainly via contacts on Social media, like FB. I just responded to a casual friend yesterday who has bought heavily into that "America started Maidan" nonsensical bullcrap.

Usually these are folk who read the conspiracy theory websites and drink that version of the kool ade. They have a complete lack of understanding of regional issues, and sadly disregard the genuine wishes and aspirations of the Ukrainian people for self determination, defeating corruption, etc. Instead they swallow the Kremlin story line, without using their God given brains, and spout off about places they've never been and things that do no know.

Title: Origins Of A Kremlin Lie
Post by: JayH on July 18, 2015, 09:28:42 PM
The change over the last year in how the world sees Russia has changed dramatically-- now the purpose and intent of Russian lies is much better evaluated and understood. Here again-more exposure of the ridiculous lies Putins Kremlin is pumping out.

The Madeleine Albright Declaration: Origins Of A Kremlin Lie

Anti-Americanism is the foundation of Kremlin policy, the central credo of which is the United States’ intent to destroy Russia as we know it. Russia asserts that, with this threat hanging over its head, Vladimir Putin has no choice but to create a mobilized society that represses opposition, places the economy on a quasi-war footing, and produces military power irrespective of cost. This is the only way Russia can defend itself.
The Kremlin uses a venerable explanation for American perfidy: The U.S. covets the natural wealth of Siberia and believes the world’s natural resources should be distributed more evenly under its supervision. How does the Kremlin know America’s evil intentions? It can look inside the mind of its No. 1 enemy.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion forgery, which circulated in imperial Russia, blamed a world Zionist conspiracy for mounting troubles and unleashed pogroms. Putin’s regime has its equivalent—the Madeleine Albright Declaration. It was invented, it seems, a decade ago by an obscure Russian blogger, then certified by a national TV show, and finally confirmed by mind readers from the FSB (the successor organization to the KGB, the Federal Security Agency). As of late, Putin’s inner circle is using the Albright Declaration to stir up fear and loathing of America.

Russia’s steady propaganda has been effective. According to a recent Pew survey, only 15% of Russians view the U.S. favorably, down from 56% five years earlier. On the other hand, Russia’s favorability in the Western world stands at 25%, and only one in six think Putin will do what’s right. These dramatically contrasting worldviews demonstrate that we are now in a new Cold War, one that could outlast the current Russian regime.

Russian propaganda’s portrayal of the U.S.

Most Americans would be shocked to learn that their government is planning a sneak attack on Russia and is actively plotting a regime change against Putin. U.S. leaders are apparently also responsible for both the putsch against the legitimate government of Ukraine and the civil war in southeastern Ukraine. In fact, U.S. aggression is to blame for troubles in Iran, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, Yemen and any other countries of turmoil around the world.

According to the Russian state media and a supporting army of internet trolls, Russia is the sole force for peace in the world.

The 75% of Russians who get their news from state television are fed a daily diet of anti-Americanism. Broadcasts on Russia’s premier nightly news channel Vesti regularly features rising drug trafficking, gay marriage, inflation and unemployment in the U.S.; CIA forces and Blackwater mercenaries operating in eastern Ukraine; Russian convoys bringing humanitarian aid to starving separatist regions; wholesale shipments of Western arms to Ukraine; and Ukrainian shellings deliberately killing children.

Russian viewers turn to flashy TV personality Dmitry Kiselov for their red meat. In a typical broadcast, he lambastes the U.S. for breaking missile treaties, its plans to station nuclear missiles within easy striking distance of Russia, and its reckless dispatch of nuclear bombers to test Russian borders. Kiselov uses the silhouette of a man holding a gun to his head to warn that any American attack will turn the Western world to ashes. Tragedy could be avoided, but Barack Obama refuses to negotiate because he is such a weak leader, both at home and abroad.

The truth does not matter. The first hit is what sticks, no matter how false and bizarre (one example: the photo of a Ukrainian soldier munching on the severed arm of a Russian separatist). The Kremlin does not hesitate to risk its credibility with official press briefings demonstrating that the Malaysian airliner was shot down by a trailing Ukrainian fighter jet. A few months later, the story changed to a missile fired from Ukrainian-held territory.

The Madeleine Albright Declaration shares the anything-goes ethos of Russian propaganda, which believes that a repeated lie becomes truth.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/paulroderickgregory/2015/07/16/the-madeleine-albright-declaration-origins-of-a-kremlin-lie/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on August 03, 2015, 01:53:03 AM
http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/how-russias-soft-power-failed-shortly-after-it-started


Note: both RBTH and Russia-Direct answer to the Kremlin, thus making this article even more interesting. One wonders whether there are currents of opposition maybe stirring to life again?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on August 03, 2015, 04:50:43 AM
http://www.russia-direct.org/opinion/how-russias-soft-power-failed-shortly-after-it-started


Note: both RBTH and Russia-Direct answer to the Kremlin, thus making this article even more interesting. One wonders whether there are currents of opposition maybe stirring to life again?

Sorry, mendy, but that link won't work - I am "not authorised to view that page."  :'(
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on August 03, 2015, 09:47:02 AM
I read a Pravda interview done recently with the Deputy Head of the State Duma.  Aside from the general entertainment value, the title of the article/interview was that Russia needs the Soviet Union to compete with the West.

In the article, the individual cites the fact that Russia is only 2% of the GDP of the world's economy.  His reasoning is that the West is attacking Russia and that is why the GDP is so low.  He fails to mention that 151 Billion Dollars was removed from the Russian economy last year because foreign entities pulled back their investments as a result of Russia's incursion into Ukraine.

Let me be more specific:  Russia loses investments over its desire to control Ukraine.  Then it claims because its economy is doing so poorly over lack of investments that the only way to salvage the situation is to gain control over more of its former vassal states.

http://english.pravda.ru/society/stories/27-07-2015/131489-russia_west_standoff-0/

One wonders if Putin is deposed whether someone much worse might take his place.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 03, 2015, 09:50:38 PM
A refresher course for Russians.
This youtube video might be able to show Russians, who the Maidan protesters were, back in 2013. Will Russians watch it? It is not RT news.
http://youtu.be/-Oei0AoCn2A
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: 2tallbill on August 04, 2015, 10:00:21 AM

The best part was calling The New York Times a paper supporting "neo-cons". That was funny!


HDL

I agree with this paragraph in the article

“Given Mr. Putin’s aggressive behavior, including pouring troops and weapons into Kaliningrad, a Russian city located between NATO members Lithuania and Poland, the allies have begun taking their own military steps. In recent months, NATO approved a rapid-reaction force in case an ally needs to be defended. It also pre-positioned some weapons in front-line countries, is rotating troops there and is conducting many more exercises. There are also plans to store battle tanks and other heavy weapons in several Baltic and Eastern European countries.

“If he is not careful, Mr. Putin may end up facing exactly what he has railed against — a NATO more firmly parked on Russia’s borders — not because the alliance wanted to go in that direction, but because Russian behavior left it little choice. That is neither in Russia’s interest, nor the West’s.”
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 05, 2015, 09:46:46 AM
Someone needs to remind Azarov:

'May 22, 2014 ·  ST. PETERSBURG, Russia (AP) — President Vladimir Putin pledged Friday that Russia will respect the results of Ukraine's presidential election,...'
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 06, 2015, 09:20:47 AM
Interesting video interview of Kryg mercenary.

http://youtu.be/v3XyPK_-ZLk
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on August 06, 2015, 11:56:39 AM
As to NATO, I often enjoy taunting Russians who at typically ignorant of the fact that Moscow allowed the establishment of a NATO base inside Russia, as part of the Western led conflict in Afghanistan. Then, Russia enjoyed the rent money earned from NATO, although it ended up that the base was rarely used. Both sides agreed to end the arrangement, but the average Russian seems unaware that such a thing existed.

The arrangement was set up in 2012, but was terminated in 2013. Most comically, was the fact that the air base was in Ulyanovsk, birthplace of Vladimir Lenin.

For Russian readers who typically think such an idea is a Western lie, here is a report from the Kremlin owned and controlled Russia Beyond the Headlines (http://rbth.com/international/2013/08/16/nato-russia_cooperation_stalls_at_ulyanovsk_reverse_transit_hub_28979.html) on the reasons why the arrangement just didn't work out long term.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on August 06, 2015, 11:59:05 AM
Two important reports from VICE news on the establishment of rotating NATO reaction forces along Polish and Baltic borders:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS3DROvygAw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd3dM2IuMc8

Title: Russian TV Deserters Divulge Details On Kremlin’s Ukraine ‘Propaganda’
Post by: JayH on August 09, 2015, 03:56:21 AM
More and more comes to light on the strategy of the Kremlin to create as much disinformation as possible .It does illustrate the degree of difficulty Russia really has to keep the lid on their antics for any length of time.


Russian TV Deserters Divulge Details On Kremlin’s Ukraine ‘Propaganda’


August 07, 2015

Former employees of Russia’s largest state-media holding have divulged behind-the-scenes details about what they portray as a Kremlin propaganda campaign to deliberately mislead and inflame television audiences with news coverage of the Ukraine conflict.

The Russian culture website Colta.ru this week published tell-all accounts by two people about their time working at VGTRK, Russia’s main state broadcasting company, whose networks included the national Rossia-1 channel.

They describe how Kremlin officials dictated to VGTRK management and editors how news events should be covered, including whether incendiary buzzwords to discredit Ukraine should be deployed on air.

One source said weather reports were even used for propaganda purposes after Russia’s annexation of Ukraine’s Crimea territory in March 2014 and the ensuing war between Kyiv’s forces and Russian-backed separatists that the UN says has killed more than 6,400 people.

The August 6 report by Colta.ru did not identify the two sources by name. Their testimony was gathered by Aleksandr Orlov, a former deputy editor in chief with VGTRK’s 24-hour news network, Rossia-24.

Orlov, who says he was fired two years ago for his support of Russian opposition leader Aleksei Navalny, is currently writing a book about Russian television.

http://www.rferl.org/content/russian-television-whistleblowers-kremlin-propaganda/27178109.html
Title: Russian Publisher Rewrites Books on Putin Without Western Authors’ Consent
Post by: JayH on August 17, 2015, 03:19:00 AM
THE JOKE OF RUSSIA CONTINUES- no end of absurdities.

Russian Publisher Rewrites Books on Putin Without Western Authors’ Consent

MOSCOW — In the original 2012 form of “Expelled: A Journalist’s Descent Into the Russian Mafia State,” the British journalist Luke Harding gives a personal account of the harassment he and his family experienced at the hands of the F.S.B., the chief successor agency to the K.G.B. It covers his time in Russia as he reported on such stories as the radiation poisoning of the former F.S.B. officer Alexander V. Litvinenko and the murder of the human rights activist Natalya Estemirova.

But a new version, published without consultation with Mr. Harding this year by a Russian house, Algoritm Publishers, bears only a fleeting resemblance to the original, the author said by telephone from London.

“They took out Litvinenko, F.S.B. methods, the harassment that my family faced,” Mr. Harding said, as well as the war in Georgia and the murders of Kremlin critics such as Ms. Estemirova. The new version of the book was released as part of a series about President Vladimir V. Putin.

“Crimea is missing,” added Mr. Harding, who was expelled from Russia in 2011. “What is fascinating is that Putin and the money trail are there. It’s almost an indicator about the red lines on publishing in Russia. Ukraine is taboo. Litvinenko is taboo. Putin and money are not taboo.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/15/world/europe/russian-publisher-rewrites-books-on-putin-without-western-authors-consent.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0
Title: Woman who sued pro-Putin Russian 'troll factory' gets one ruble in damages
Post by: JayH on August 18, 2015, 02:40:28 AM
Agency that hired people to write pro-Kremlin propaganda was sued by ex-employee Lyudmila Savchuk to ‘bring the internet trolls out of the shade’
 Savchukand other employees were paid to bombard website comment pages with praise for eulogies of Kremlin strongman Vladimir Putin

Woman who sued pro-Putin Russian 'troll factory' gets one ruble in damages

’A Russian court has ordered a secretive pro-Putin “propaganda factory” to pay symbolic damages to an employee who sued them in a bid to expose the workings of the Kremlin’s online trolls.


Russian 'troll factory' sued for underpayment and labour violations
 Read more
The Agency for Internet Studies, which hired people to write pro-Kremlin propaganda from a nondescript St Petersburg address, was sued by ex-employee Lyudmila Savchuk for alleged non-payment of wages and for failing to give workers proper contracts.

The freelance journalist claimed she had gone undercover as a pro-government internet troll to expose the outfit.

A judge ordered the shadowy agency to pay Savchuk symbolic damages of one rouble after the two sides had earlier agreed on compensation worth one month’s salary.

“I am very happy with this victory. I achieved my aim, which was to bring the internet trolls out of the shade,” said Savchuk, 34.

For a monthly salary of 40,000 to 50,000 roubles (£490/US$750), Savchuk and other employees bombarded website comment pages with praise for Vladimir Putin.


Unmasked after two months in the job, Savchuk was sacked after she published articles under a pseudonym in local newspapers denouncing the “propaganda factory”.

The Kremlin has claimed that it has no links to the operations of the Agency for Internet Studies.

Authorities in Russia have intensified a propaganda campaign as the crisis over Ukraine has sent tensions with the west soaring to their highest level since the cold war.

The west and Ukraine accuse Russia of sending its troops to fight in its ex-Soviet neighbour but Putin flatly denies the claim and Russia’s state media has done all it can to deflect the accusations.

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/russia-and-former-soviet-union/agence-france-presse-woman-who-sued-pro-putin-russian-troll-factory-gets-one-rouble-in-damages-395977.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 19, 2015, 08:25:30 PM
This video shows a protest inside of Donetsk. The second part of the video shows Moscow's edited version of events.

http://youtu.be/tRMuqO9ZjnI
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on August 20, 2015, 08:46:58 AM
Very accurate at how news is presented in Russia. Sad, but true.

Sergei Ivanov, who will likely be the replacement in the Kremlin at some point (he is now head of the Presidential administration), spoke at the Congress of Foreign Journalists in June. One could not help but smile when he, with a straight face, told foreign journalists serving in Russia that the Russia press is free and there is no unified editorial slant to Russian reporting. The fact that Russian media has been reorganized into a "power vertical" of its own, with two persons at the top in charge of all news media, apparently allows journalists (those not fired) to be more "free" and objective. He went on to say that those of us who report differently about Russian news media are spreading false propaganda about Russia.

When asked about the rise of neo-Nazi movements inside Russia, he brushed it aside and instead turned the question to the supposed control of Ukraine by Nazis and pointed to the three Baltic states of Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania as the home of neo-Nazi movements in Europe. That is a HUGE hint as to where the Kremlin might venture next after Ukraine.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on August 20, 2015, 09:34:28 AM
That posted video is a perfect example of West news versus Moscow's RT.
It even show's DNR's leader talking about 'camps' for women, men, and children in western Ukraine. Sick.
Title: Trolls on tour: how Kremlin money buys Western journalists
Post by: JayH on August 21, 2015, 02:06:39 AM
More worth reading--it adds to what we do know.  It would make selling your soul tempting to some dipheaads-even yusing any means at your disposal  eg--like a forum???!! :)

Money for “the truth“
At the latest, from the Berlin exhibition on the project expanded its activity field and now also offered money “to support journalists all over the world who are ready to compile unique and truthful reports about the situation in countries hit by civil wars.“ Those interested were supposed to participate in a competition. The available amounts were listed on a corresponding website:

“Journalistic investigation – 20 000 euros
Documentary 15 000 euros
Special Report 10 000 euros
PhotoReport 10 000 euros
News piece 10 000 euros
Article 10 000 euros“[54]

Benjamin Hiller’s Berlin address is identical with the one of Coterie Collective [55], a small group of independent journalists including Hiller [56], Flo Smith [57] and Julian Haas [58]. Apparently, these three are from the left-wing, alternative scene. Connections to Russia or Eastern Europe in general cannot be discerned. Flo Smith spent time in Iraq in July 2014 and took photos there in the name of Material Evidence [59]. Evidently, Material Evidence participated in financing this research trip. Benjamin Hiller has recently confirmed as much to us in an e-mail.

Trolls on tour: how Kremlin money buys Western journalists


Russian ultranationalists are trying to buy Western journalists: who is behind all of this?
In the summer of 2014, a photographic exhibition on the conflicts in Ukraine and Syria appeared in Berlin and Brussels. Its advertising promised to present a “balanced, truthful picture.” The organizers meticulously disguised their identities. At the same time, they offered huge amounts of money to Western journalists without mentioning the conditions. The Kentrails research collective, an antifascist watchgroup, has researched the exhibition’s background and uncovered a propaganda network in which Russian right-wing extremists collaborate with the Kremlin-associated St. Petersburg “troll factory” in an attempt to impact the Western public.
On 23 December 2013 a photographic exhibition called Material evidence. Syria (“ВеЩдоки. Сирия”) opened in Moscow. It was organized by the periodical Zhurnalistskaya Pravda (ZhP, Eng. “Journalistic Truth”) – this was announced by the ultranationalist magazine Zavtra [1] (Eng. „Tomorrow“) on the same day. A slideshow in the article shows a number of photos of the event, including one showing one of the lecturers in front of a poster with both the logo of ZhP and the logo of the exhibition[2].

The man can clearly be identified as Vladislav Shurygin, a Zavtra editor[3] and editor-in-chief of ZhP[4]. One day later, Shurygin himself in his blog boasted[5]: „We have opened a great exhibition!“ He continues by explicitly naming ZhP as the initiator of the project and by explaining that it was one of the exhibition’s purposes to show that the Syrian government with Russia’s support conducts a fight against „thugs and mercenaries.“ These would be financed by „Islamist extremist sects“ from Saudi Arabia and Qatar.

The exhibition Material evidence. Syria should also be shown in the North Caucasus as soon as possible. One photo shows the photographer Aybulat Akbutin, another one shows Shurygin in person in front of a notable exhibit: a wrecked white minibus. On 10 January 2014, Zhurnalistskaya Pravda covers the exhibition again[6]. The photos shown there would have been created on a research trip, in which the photographers Aybulat Akbutin[7] and Halit Safin[8] would have participated as well as the „military correspondent“ Ilja Kramnik[9] and another, unnamed man who was in charge of security. They would also have brought exhibits home from the trip. According to Aybulat Akbutin, it was especially difficult to transport the minibus destroyed in a bomb attack from Syria to Moscow.

On tour in Russia
On 15-25 February, Material evidence. Syria was shown in the Russian town of Ufa, capital of the constituent republic of Bashkortostan in the Volga region. In one of the pictures of the exhibition the white minibus can be clearly spotted again [10].

Apart from the photographers Akbutin and Safin, also the deputy chief editor of Zhurnalistskaya Pravda, Denis Tukmakov, was present, who, on this occasion, gave an interview to his own magazine [11]. In it, he stated that Russian citizens would have to understand that from the USSR’s dissolution onward, war was coming closer and closer. Russia was on the radar screen of international terrorism, which aimed at establishing a „New World Order.“ The biggest threat, according to him, was lurking in the Volga region and Northern Caucasus.

On February 28, Denis Tukmakov posted a picture in Facebook showing him guiding Rustem Chamitow, President of Bashkortostan, through the exhibition room [12]. At the beginning of March, the exhibition reached Grozny, the capital of the North Caucasian constituent republic of Chechnya, and it was also shown there for ten days. At the vernissage on March 7, Syria’s ambassador Riad Haddad voiced his appreciation for Chechnya’s tyrant Ramzan Kadyrov in front of journalists and clerics as well as the parliament’s speaker, Dukuvakha Abdurakhmanov. Haddad called for concerted actions against Islamism [13]. Once more, the visitors were especially impressed by the white minibus [14].

A new topic
On 7 April 2014, the official facebook page of Zhurnalistskaya Pravda [15] had a new announcement up for its fans. The sequel of the successful Material evidence. Syria exhibition was to be opened the next day. Unlike its predecessor, this project would get its own Facebook page [16].

„There is a lot to see!“ Vladislav Shurygin wrote, as he called to visit on April 16 [17]. The new exhibition displaying pictures of Maidan street battles was to be seen in Russia’s capital during April 8-22[18].

This time, according to ZhP’s website, photographers Vasiliy Prokhanov, Dmitriy Mikhailov  „and others“ spent two weeks in Kyiv. The announcement promised to provide explanations of what was going on in Ukraine at the time. Media representatives were requested to contact the given telephone number, the owner of which was only referred to as „Aleksandr“ [19]. In an interview with the newspaper Sobesednik, a man with this name was introduced as the “director” of the exhibition [20].

Russian media outlet TVC announced that the exhibition had been classified for adults only, due to its graphic content. Vladislav Shurygin told journalists that he had seen the horrors of Maidan with his own eyes while being in Ukraine with a team of journalists. Another person, who had seemingly participated in the trip, Nikita Jurchenko of ZhP depicted his impressions as well [21].

News agency RIA Novosti named Shurygin as organisator of Material evidence. Ukraine [22].

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/08/20/trolls-on-tour-how-kremlin-money-buys-western-journalists/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BdHvA on August 21, 2015, 02:20:16 AM
As to NATO, I often enjoy taunting Russians who at typically ignorant of the fact that Moscow allowed the establishment of a NATO base inside Russia, as part of the Western led conflict in Afghanistan. Then, Russia enjoyed the rent money earned from NATO, although it ended up that the base was rarely used. Both sides agreed to end the arrangement, but the average Russian seems unaware that such a thing existed.

The arrangement was set up in 2012, but was terminated in 2013. Most comically, was the fact that the air base was in Ulyanovsk, birthplace of Vladimir Lenin.

For Russian readers who typically think such an idea is a Western lie, here is a report from the Kremlin owned and controlled Russia Beyond the Headlines (http://rbth.com/international/2013/08/16/nato-russia_cooperation_stalls_at_ulyanovsk_reverse_transit_hub_28979.html) on the reasons why the arrangement just didn't work out long term.

While I do not taunt others. It should be pointed out the allied forces (primarily American) during the Second World War maintained a military (air force) base in present day Ukraine. They used it to bomb targets in Germany and Italy, with the planes departing from England, dropping there munitions and flying onto Poltava and than returning refueled with new munitions.
Title: Russia's fake Ukraine war report exposed in Putin PR disaster
Post by: JayH on August 26, 2015, 10:26:39 PM
It was a toss up if this story should have gone in the "Russian Idiot Of The Day" Thread--- but the never ending ridiculous propaganda attempts need to be seen--to believe how ridiculous they are !

WATCH: Russia's fake Ukraine war report exposed in Putin PR disaster



RUSSIAN President Vladimir Putin's twisted propaganda machine has been revealed after a fake news report purported to be from the conflict in Ukraine was leaked online.


In the extraordinary clip a Russian parliament employee pretending to be near the volatile frontline of Donetsk in eastern Ukraine bursts out laughing as her cover is blown.

A light is switched on and Maria Katasonova, who works for a Russian MP, is revealed to be standing in a darkened room as recorded explosions play in the background.

With the cover blown, Katasonova then quickly orders her friend to stop shooting.

The fake war report, which has already been seen over a million times on YouTube, is an embarrassing propaganda fail for Putin, who is trying to win the PR war alongside the military one in Ukraine.

The Kremlin has been trying to portray the Ukrainian government forces as the aggressors in the conflict despite a fragile ceasefire holding.

The West has accused Putin of propping up the Ukrainian rebels and supplying them with soldiers and tanks - a claim the Russian leader denies.

At the start of the video, Katasonova, an assistant to the nationalist MP Evgeny Fedorov, claimed: "We are now only 1,000 feet away from the front line, the Ukrainian army started shelling at 5 o’clock."
Katasonova describes the scene to the camera as the sounds of shelling explosions go off all around her.

However, the young Maria Katasonova, who has a record of starring in extreme propaganda videos, couldn't keep a straight face and soon bursts out laughing.

The lights are then switched on in the room and her propaganda scam operation is uncovered.

Commenters on social websites have branded the clumsy news report attempt as a perfect example of how the manipulative Russian propaganda machine works.

YouTube user Gus condemned the footage saying: "This is obviously fake and provocative, it is simple and cheap to make."

Angry GarisMan says: "Am I the only one who sees this video is fake?"

Don Ivanov posted: "It is a video for Russian nationalists from Putinland! Shame to Russian TV!"

The controversial Katasonova is known for spreading her radical political views and has supported attacks on anti-military rallies in the past.

She writes in a pro-Kremlin newspaper and claims to be in Donetsk supporting the separatists - however this latest PR gaffe throws that claim into question.

Katasonova appeared in a video earlier this year holding a Kalashnikov and threatening the West with nuclear destruction if it interferes in Ukraine.

She now works for Mr Fyodorov, who is one the longest-serving deputies in the Russian parliament and the leader of the National Liberation Movement in Russia.

Neither she nor the MP have commented on the publicity fail.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/600413/Russia-s-fake-Ukraine-war-report-exposed-Putin-PR-disaster


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on August 29, 2015, 03:01:49 AM
Sometimes one just can't make this stuff up.

Russian news journal Деловая жизнь (Business Life) apparently didn't get the memo about a ban on reporting any news that might indicate Russian forces are in Ukraine.

In an article on the economy, the section that detailed military spending included several details that apparently slipped by editors. According to the report:

- For fiscal year 2014 the government paid 3 million rubles to families of Russian soldiers who had been killed in the Ukrainian war zone (2,000 fatalities).

- For fiscal year 2014 the government compensated soldiers with disabilities stemming from fighting in Eastern Ukraine with 1.5 million rubles (3,200 Russian soldiers).


Two days after publication the journal suddenly pulled the story and censored the information about Ukraine. However, thanks to archiving, Russian language readers can still have access to the report, here (http://web.archive.org/web/20150822092515/http:/bs-life.ru/rabota/zarplata/voennosluzashchie2015.html).

And, if things couldn't get any worse for those who have swallowed the lie of no Russian soldiers in Ukraine, the original report revealed the extra amount that the government will pay "contract" soldiers for Ukraine duty in 2015: 1,800 rubles per day ($28 USD). For some soldiers that is a doubling of their monthly income.

A "contract" soldier is one who remains in the military past the conscription period. Larger bonuses are paid for specialists, such as officers, tank engineers and trained fire control personnel, as these are in higher demand.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 04:47:16 AM
In Donbass goes genocide of the Russian people.

http://youtu.be/ffolIBHvUpo
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 04:54:35 AM
The Russia has thousands of refugees from the Donbass.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 09:06:46 AM
In Donbass goes genocide of the Russian people.






Good example of propaganda.


There is no genocide of Russian people in Donbas.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 09:07:48 AM
The Russia has thousands of refugees from the Donbass.


Most refugees from Donbas are internally displaced, meaning they've moved to other regions of Ukraine.


There are also refugees from Donbas in my country (Canada), I've met them.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 09:50:48 AM
There is no genocide of Russian people in Donbas/
+++++++

I live in Russia, and I know nothing about my country, as you know. Very strange.If they kill  Russian people,it is not genocide?We are all Russian we are Slavs.We have propaganda, but you do not have?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 09:55:38 AM



Good example of propaganda.


There is no genocide of Russian people in Donbas.
I live in Russia, and I know nothing about my country, as you know. Very strange.If they kill  Russian people,it is not genocide?We are all Russian we are Slavs.We have propaganda, but you do not have?
[/quote]
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 09:58:35 AM
No, most people here don't care about Donbas, so we don't have propaganda.

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group".

The conflict in the Donbas was perpetrated not by Ukrainians, but by people living in Donbas.  The first victim of the conflict was an ethnic Ukrainian mayor who did not support protesters.  The second or third victim was a 16 year old boy from Western Ukraine, a student, murdered because he could not speak Russian.

There are thousands of ethnic Russians in Kyiv, no one harasses them for being Russian.  My mother in law is an ethnic Russian, she doesn't speak Ukrainian, and no one bothers her.

The death of those in Donbas is not related to their ethnic origin.  Consequently, yes, what you posted is propaganda, and its intended audience is ethnic Russians in Russia. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 10:07:04 AM
No, most people here don't care about Donbas, so we don't have propaganda.

Genocide is defined as "the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular nation or ethnic group".

The conflict in the Donbas was perpetrated not by Ukrainians, but by people living in Donbas.  The first victim of the conflict was an ethnic Ukrainian mayor who did not support protesters.  The second or third victim was a 16 year old boy from Western Ukraine, a student, murdered because he could not speak Russian.

There are thousands of ethnic Russians in Kyiv, no one harasses them for being Russian.  My mother in law is an ethnic Russian, she doesn't speak Ukrainian, and no one bothers her.

The death of those in Donbas is not related to their ethnic origin.  Consequently, yes, what you posted is propaganda, and its intended audience is ethnic Russians in Russia.

Ukrainians in Odessa shouting "Russian killing."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 10:09:25 AM
It's not moving. They run away from the war.


That is why I stated they are "internally displaced"

Let's not forget who started this war.  Who were the first self appointed "leaders" of the DNR/LNR?


Igor Girkin - A native of Moscow, a "retired" FSB colonel (retired immediately before moving to Donetsk).

Alexander Borodai -
another Muscovite, a journalist for the ultranationalist paper Zavtra.  According to Pravda, a deputy director of the FSB.


Vladimir Antiufeef - Former commander of internal affairs in Latvia before the collapse of the USSR, who fled to Moscow after an assassination attempt.


When the fact the leaders of an allegedly nascent "Russian movement" on Ukrainian territory was mocked, Moscow eventually pulled its very visible operatives out of Donbas, and replaced them with locals.  Yup, an unemployed electrician with no military training certainly is natural "leadership material", and has the ability to command military units and develop military strategy.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 10:12:13 AM
Ukrainians in Odessa shouting "Russian killing."


Read the narrative of an Odesa native.  He is an ethnic Russian, by the way, and he has posted that his Ukrainian language is not fluent -


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375978#msg375978 (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17913.msg375978#msg375978)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 10:37:51 AM
A report on the wealth of the Kremlin appointed leaders of Donbas.  This is from a Russian newspaper.


http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/69639.html

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on September 03, 2015, 10:45:36 AM
Larissa, you know nothing about conditions in Donbas and in the rest of 'normal' Ukraine. You know nothing about the true nature of of the disapora of, mostly, Russian speaker refugees from Donbas to other parts of Ukraine, forced by the invasion of the Russian Army. Without that invasion, the Ukrainian Army would have restored peace and the rule of law to Donbas. What you think that you know is nothing but the fiction of muscovite propaganda. My fiancee, who is Russian speaking and Ukrainian-native born to ethnic Russian emigrants, in the town destroyed by invading Russian tanks and artillery, Debaltseve, had to flee Donbas, with her daughter, ahead of the invading Russian Army, with its murderous Chechen henchmen. Surprise!...she did not choose to flee to that enlightened paradise of Muscovy, only about 50 km from her residence in Luhansk (Lugansk to you); she chose to go as far away from the Russian border as she could: Lviv (Lvov). And as fascist as Kremlin propaganda might depict western Ukraine and Lviv, her daughter spent the last year completing Russian-speaking secondary school in Lviv, a school publicly funded by the Ukrainian government.

My fiancee hates Putin, his army, and the Russian people for supporting him and destroying normal life for Donbas residents and for all other Ukrainians, who are now united as a nation against the moskali aggressors.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 10:54:27 AM
Larissa, you know nothing about conditions in Donbas and in the rest of 'normal' Ukraine. You know nothing about the true nature of of the disapora of, mostly, Russian speaker refugees from Donbas to other parts of Ukraine, forced by the invasion of the Russian Army. Without that invasion, the Ukrainian Army would have restored peace and the rule of law to Donbas. What you think that you know is nothing but the fiction of muscovite propaganda. My fiancee, who is Russian speaking and Ukrainian-native born to ethnic Russian emigrants, in the town destroyed by invading Russian tanks and artillery, Debaltseve, had to flee Donbas, with her daughter, ahead of the invading Russian Army, with its murderous Chechen henchmen. Surprise!...she did not choose to flee to that enlightened paradise of Muscovy, only about 50 km from her residence in Luhansk (Lugansk to you); she chose to go as far away from the Russian border as she could: Lviv (Lvov). And as fascist as Kremlin propaganda might depict western Ukraine and Lviv, her daughter spent the last year completing Russian-speaking secondary school in Lviv, a school publicly funded by the Ukrainian government.

My fiancee hates Putin, his army, and the Russian people for supporting him and destroying normal life for Donbas residents and for all other Ukrainians, who are now united as a nation against the moskali aggressors.
If I had a good English, I could tell you the truth. Sorry, you are wrong.You are mistaken.Now even say that it is not Russia won the Great Patriotic War.It's horrible.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 10:58:42 AM
A report on the wealth of the Kremlin appointed leaders of Donbas.  This is from a Russian newspaper.


http://www.novayagazeta.ru/politics/69639.html

novayagazeta is Western propaganda in Russia.Novayagazeta published traitors of our country.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 10:59:26 AM
How can he be wrong when he is telling you the experience of someone who lived in Donbas, fled the war, and is living in Ukraine?  An ethnic Russian, by the way.


Russia didn't win WW2.  The Allies did.  And, there were millions of Ukrainian soldiers in the Red Army as well.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:01:02 AM
novayagazeta is Western propaganda in Russia.


I literally laughed out loud at that.  It is operated by ethnic Russians, for Russians.  My speculation is it is a "Kremlin project" to create a controlled opposition.


With your extreme attitudes about the West, I can guarantee you will not find a man from North America.  Focus on Europe (and I do mean that in a positive way, not as an insult - no use wasting your time). 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 11:14:23 AM

I literally laughed out loud at that.  It is operated by ethnic Russians, for Russians.  My speculation is it is a "Kremlin project" to create a controlled opposition.


With your extreme attitudes about the West, I can guarantee you will not find a man from North America.  Focus on Europe (and I do mean that in a positive way, not as an insult - no use wasting your time).
Russia was at war with the Nazis 4 years, and the United States won the war. Horror.
I am going not in USA.Indeed, you have a strong propaganda.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:20:31 AM
I don't live in the U.S.

In addition to the USSR and the U.S., the Allies included the UK, France, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Denmark, Greece, Norway, Poland, Yugoslavia, South Africa, Brazil, and China. Maybe I'm missing one.  Several of those countries were in the war almost 2 years before the USSR was invaded.

If you know your history, you know that the Soviet government made a pact with the Nazis, and Stalin didn't believe the USSR would be invaded by the Germans, resulting in a virtual sweep of Ukrainian territory when Operation Barbarossa was launched.  That's not propaganda, by the way.  It's history, backed up by thousands of declassified documents.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:25:39 AM
As for American propaganda, I'll post again something Russians don't like hearing.  Most Americans don't care about Russia.  They don't care about Donbas.  They don't read about it, they don't think about it, and they certainly aren't wasting time on propaganda campaigns.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 11:28:14 AM
I don't live in the U.S.

In addition to the USSR and the U.S., the Allies included the UK, France, Canada (my country), Australia, New Zealand, Belgium, Denmark, Greece, the Netherlands, Denmark, Greece, Norway, Poland, Yugoslavia, South Africa, Brazil, and China. Maybe I'm missing one.  Several of those countries, including Canada, were in the war almost 2 years before the USSR was invaded.

If you know your history, you know that the Soviet government made a pact with the Nazis, and Stalin didn't believe the USSR would be invaded by the Germans, resulting in a virtual sweep of Ukrainian territory when Operation Barbarossa was launched.  That's not propaganda, by the way.  It's history, backed up by thousands of declassified documents.

Europe surrendered a few days. Russia fought for 4 years.Churchill opened a second front in 1944.Do not make me laugh.
http://review-planet.ru/2013/11/mamaev-kurgan-foto/
http://mamaew-kurgan.ru/photo/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 03, 2015, 11:30:24 AM
As for American propaganda, I'll post again something Russians don't like hearing.  Most Americans don't care about Russia.  They don't care about Donbas.  They don't read about it, they don't think about it, and they certainly aren't wasting time on propaganda campaigns.

The Russians also do not care about the United States.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:31:42 AM
Europe surrendered in a few days? 


I suppose all those dead soldiers on the beaches of Dieppe should be told their countries had surrendered.


The inconvenient truth is that the USSR made a pact with Hitler, and sat aside until it was invaded.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 03, 2015, 11:32:44 AM
Um, Boe, you mentioned Denmark and Greece twice.  (Just sayin!)


Do you have any pictures of the signing of the Molotov / Ribbentrop Pact?

Below is a diagram of the Soviet / Nazi negotiations and how Poland was to be split between them.

(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/1d/a74ccf7c57b9858192d4630c18f8531d.jpg)

I wonder what our revisionist historian thinks of that treaty?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:32:52 AM
The Russians also do not care about the United States.


Were that true, Russian papers wouldn't be filled with articles about the U.S.


My husband just returned from Russia.  He said the amount of anti US propaganda reminded him of the early 1980's in the USSR. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:38:04 AM
Um, Boe, you mentioned Denmark and Greece twice.  (Just sayin!)


Do you have any pictures of the signing of the Molotov / Ribbentrop Pact?

Below is a diagram of the Soviet / Nazi negotiations and how Poland was to be split between them.

(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/1d/a74ccf7c57b9858192d4630c18f8531d.jpg)

I wonder what our revisionist historian thinks of that treaty?




. . . Crickets.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 03, 2015, 11:38:22 AM
Europe surrendered a few days. Russia fought for 4 years.Churchill opened a second front in 1944.Do not make me laugh.
http://review-planet.ru/2013/11/mamaev-kurgan-foto/ (http://review-planet.ru/2013/11/mamaev-kurgan-foto/)
http://mamaew-kurgan.ru/photo/ (http://mamaew-kurgan.ru/photo/)


Larissa you are showing your anti-western bias. You say the second front was not opened until 1944. That would come as a surprise to all the Allies fighting the Nazis in North Africa from 1940 - 1943. Then Sicily and Italy. All before the Normandy invasions. I back up what Bo is saying, it was a group effort to defeat the Germans. It always amazes me how folks from the former Soviet Union think they single handily defeated Germany. Just like I call out my fellow Americans for taking full credit for defeating the Germans.


The biggest enemy of truth is propaganda.


HDL
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 03, 2015, 11:40:11 AM
It is difficult for Russians to understand that Americans do not think about them.

We were walking down the street in Peter yesterday and I commented to my woman that three out of four of the shirts worn with wording on them had English as the language and typically were about a city in the United States.

Okay, this is a funny aside.  We had a nice madam come on here about five months ago to hawk her 'wares'.  She gave us the address of her primary location.  Now, Peter is a big city.  And we are in a part of it that certainly is NOT Nevsky. 

Here's the funny part.  We're six blocks from her primary location.  I mentioned the story to my gal and we both had a great laugh.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 03, 2015, 11:46:47 AM
It is difficult for Russians to understand that Americans do not think about them.

The average person here does not often think of Russians, but our governmental strategists probably do. The general public knows much more about important subjects like the Lardashions.

Fathertime!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 03, 2015, 11:47:27 AM
It is difficult for Russians to understand that Americans do not think about them.

We were walking down the street in Peter yesterday and I commented to my woman that three out of four of the shirts worn with wording on them had English as the language and typically were about a city in the United States.

Okay, this is a funny aside.  We had a nice madam come on here about five months ago to hawk her 'wares'.  She gave us the address of her primary location.  Now, Peter is a big city.  And we are in a part of it that certainly is NOT Nevsky. 

Here's the funny part.  We're six blocks from her primary location.  I mentioned the story to my gal and we both had a great laugh.


Jon,
You should stop by and say "Privet" to Inna.  :rolleyes:


HDL
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 03, 2015, 11:51:27 AM

Jon,
You should stop by and say "Privet" to Inna.  :rolleyes:


HDL


Yes.  Didn't she offer a "special rate" for forum members?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on September 03, 2015, 12:09:49 PM

Yes.  Didn't she offer a "special rate" for forum members?

What would be the rate if you bring your own woman?

= = = = = =

Two unmarried senior citizens visited physician.

Said they wanted to have sex there and get dr opinion as to technique, etc.

Dr said, OK, go ahead.

Then Dr told them he saw nothing wrong and asked why they really  came to him.

They said hotel room would cost them $150; but by filing Medicare for both of them, the cost would be virtually nothing when they had sex in his office.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on September 03, 2015, 04:22:41 PM
If I had a good English, I could tell you the truth. Sorry, you are wrong.You are mistaken.Now even say that it is not Russia won the Great Patriotic War.It's horrible.

I live in Ukraine. Where do you live? I follow the news on internet news sources from the entire world. Where do you get your news?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 03, 2015, 05:34:22 PM
What would be the rate if you bring your own woman?

I am happy to say that my woman does not need to get paid to take care of me.  And she is far more beautiful than any woman who could possibly be a working girl.  And that is no propaganda.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 03, 2015, 07:11:43 PM
Larissa,
   Gosspidy!  You never heard of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact?  JUST ONE WEEK after signing it, Hitler invaded Poland. Indeed Stalin invaded Poland from from the East while Hitler invaded from the West.  Guess who stood up to Hitler and tried to stop him?  If you guessed England and France, you’d be right,  it would be another 21 months before the USSR stood up to Hitler, and only because the Nazis launched their own attack against the USSR, not because the USSR was in any way opposed to Nazi territorial ambitions, besides helping Hitler attack Poland, the USSR also provided raw materials to Nazi Germany’s war machine and even provided air bases in Belarus to the Nazis.  I guess they don’t teach these easily verifiable facts in NovoRussiya! 

No second front until 1944? Too bad my father’s not around any more, I’d tell him that his fighting the Nazis in North Africa in 1942 and in Sicily in 1943 doesn’t count, or his older brother who was shot down and killed over Germany in October 1942, no, that doesn’t count either, oh yeah and the hundreds of Americans who were killed by Nazi submarines delivering war materials to Murmansk in 1942-43, no that doesn’t count as well.  Hey, you know what, guess where the main electronics for USSR radar sets came from, da tovarisch Amerika! and I bet your Grandparents all knew what Spam was!

By the way Larissa, my father’s parents were born in Russia and immigrated to the USA because of the persecution they faced in Russia.  Do you know what a “Pogrom” is?  My Grandparents sure did, I guess they don’t teach you about it in NovoRussiya.  Other relatives of mine were executed in the great purge of 1937, part of the continuous ethnic cleansing in Starry Russiya, also probably not covered in NovoRussiya text books, even though many prominent Russians were also executed or sent to Gulags like General  Rokossovsky, do you even know what a Gulag is?  I’d be willing to make a bet that some of your ancestors had a suite in one of them!
So unless you’re being paid to be here, my advice to you is open your little glasskies and see the reality that the Novo Russiya is exactly the same as the Starry Russiya

 

 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 03, 2015, 07:53:27 PM
a-a-and another thing Larissa, since Crimea has “returned” to Russia thanks to local “self-defense” forces who certainly weren’t Russian soldiers in disguise (or in Donbas),  you should check out the history of the mass graves of White Russians killed by Red Russians during the revolution,  do you know what a mass grave is?  It’s when a lot of bodies are dumped in a “dirko” in the ground and hopefully forgotten about, yup we’re talking about thousands of bodies here.  In the Crimea, Béla Kun, with Vladimir Lenin's approval had 50,000 White prisoners of war and civilians summarily executed via shooting or hanging after the defeat of general Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel at the end of 1920.  Let me guess, I bet they don’t include this detail in Novo Russiya iystoria books, now do they?  Do you happen to know why the death toll wasn’t even higher than this number.  Well, let me tell you.  The USS Whipple, a US Navy destroyer, anchored off of Sevastopol, escorted many thousands of White Russians into over-crowded steamers and helped tow them to Istanbul, and later helped deliver food aid throughout the Chorny Moira when a famine broke out.  So let’s see, Moscow’s killing tens of thousands of Russkies and Washington’s saving tens of thousands of Russkies, so tell me again who the bad people are?  BTW, the above facts are easily verifiable, Google really is your droog, are your glasskies opening a little bit yet? 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on September 03, 2015, 09:37:40 PM
The Russians also do not care about the United States.

Now that's funny!   ;D
Why in the hell do we have so many Russians living in the USA as well as still waiting in line to get visas to move here?  If your posts are a reflection of what you were taught about history, it doesn't speak well about the Russian education system.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:29:11 AM
Now that's funny!   ;D
Why in the hell do we have so many Russians living in the USA as well as still waiting in line to get visas to move here?  If your posts are a reflection of what you were taught about history, it doesn't speak well about the Russian education system.

I never go to the United States. You have credits, GMO food. Maybe go stupid people. Many returned.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:36:50 AM
I live in Ukraine. Where do you live? I follow the news on internet news sources from the entire world. Where do you get your news?
You are a victim of Western propaganda.
I understand you. I live in Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:50:26 AM
Um, Boe, you mentioned Denmark and Greece twice.  (Just sayin!)


Do you have any pictures of the signing of the Molotov / Ribbentrop Pact?

Below is a diagram of the Soviet / Nazi negotiations and how Poland was to be split between them.

(http://i60.fastpic.ru/big/2013/1029/1d/a74ccf7c57b9858192d4630c18f8531d.jpg)

I live in Russia.You telling me about the war.In Russia, every meter of land drenched in the blood of Russian soldiers
Churchill is coward. He opened a second front in Europe in 1944. Russia was at war for three years.



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:58:01 AM
http://www.russlav.ru/aktualno/kurskaya-bitva.html

http://www.culture.ru/institutes/10083

http://www.russlav.ru/aktualno/blokada-leningrada.html

http://lifeglobe.net/blogs/details?id=395

http://www.culture.ru/institutes/10083

Where are the allies?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 05:42:27 AM
I never go to the United States. You have credits, GMO food. Maybe go stupid people. Many returned.


Credit cards are convenient.  Mortgages mean people can buy homes.


One can eat GMO free in the U.S., just by purchasing organically grown foods, and most are not significantly more expensive than non organic products.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 05:47:49 AM
I live in Russia.You telling me about the war.In Russia, every meter of land drenched in the blood of Russian soldiers
Churchill is coward. He opened a second front in Europe in 1944. Russia was at war for three years.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/launch_ani_overlord_campaign.shtml (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/launch_ani_overlord_campaign.shtml)

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/battle-of-guadalcanal.htm (http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/worldwarii/a/battle-of-guadalcanal.htm)

http://combinedfleet.com/battles/Leyte_Campaign (http://combinedfleet.com/battles/Leyte_Campaign)

http://www.history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-ww2/battle-of-midway (http://www.history.co.uk/study-topics/history-of-ww2/battle-of-midway)

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/battle-britain/history.page (http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/battle-britain/history.page)

http://www.iwojima.com/

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 05:51:47 AM
You are a victim of Western propaganda.
I understand you. I live in Russia.


Please quote all this "Western propaganda".


I was in Ukraine this summer.  I've met victims of the war.  I've met wounded soldiers who were in battle.  Are they all victims of propaganda too, while you, safely ensconced thousands of miles away, know what is happening better in a foreign country?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 06:19:38 AM
In Russia, every meter of land drenched in the blood of Russian soldiers
Untrue.

Quote
Churchill is coward. He opened a second front in Europe in 1944. Russia was at war for three years.


The United Kingdom was at war for six years.  So what's your point?




Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 06:53:53 AM

Please quote all this "Western propaganda".


I was in Ukraine this summer.  I've met victims of the war.  I've met wounded soldiers who were in battle.  Are they all victims of propaganda too, while you, safely ensconced thousands of miles away, know what is happening better in a foreign country?

Russian and Ukrainian are Slavs.We are Orthodox. We can not be divided.War provoke certain circles. You want to say that Russia has placed its troops in Libya, Iraq, Serbia?There is a war with Orthodox countries.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 07:01:42 AM

Untrue.

Churchill is coward. He opened a second front in Europe in 1944. Russia was at war for three years.



The United Kingdom was at war for six years.  So what's your point?

See my links.In Russia, every meter of land drenched in the blood of our soldiers.The Battle of Kursk, the battle for Moscow, the Battle of Stalingrad, Sevastopol.Where are the allies?Our troops liberated almost all of Europe.
Give me the link for the release of European allies.

How many Russian soldiers were killed and how many Englishmen?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 04, 2015, 07:21:40 AM
Larissa,

Because you live in Russia, you think that you can re-write history?  Russian history is filled with failed five year plans.  Russian history is filled with pogroms.  Russian history is filled with gulags.  And, yes, Russian history includes victory on the Eastern Front of WWII.

United States has been a friend of Russia many times.  Especially during WWII. You think all those tanks and planes came from Kharkov Tractor Factory during WWII?  Many of the planes were delivered through an Alaskan/Siberian delivery route and came from the United States.  Our equipment, Russian bodies.

http://moscow.usembassy.gov/amb-bravo369.html

No one on this forum disputes the great sacrifices made by the Russian people to contribute to victory of WWII.  But Russia did not do these things alone.

And Russia was actually Germany's ally at start of war.  Which was why I highlighted Molotov Ribbentrop Pact, something you completely ignore.

Every nation suffered during WWII.  No one more than Russia. But that doesn't mean that Russia won the war.  Only that Russia was so unprepared for war that burnt earth and the death of the population seemed to be the only way that Russia could stave off surrender. 

Remember that Stalin moved all his factories and even the government to the Urals.  There is a reason for the Tank Trap Memorial on the outskirts of Moscow.  It marks the farthest advance of the German troops.

Ultimately the victories at Stalingrad and Kursk paved the way for the Eastern Front defeat of the Germans.

We know these things. We do not downplay them or think them insignificant.

But you come on this forum, which favors relationships between Western Men and FSU Women and try and tell us revisionist history and that Westerners are not worthy of your relationship and you will not only get push back, but you will make yourself unavailable for a man.

Perhaps you should tone down your belligerence and ask about relationships with men, not trying to give us a history lesson.

Oh, just because your home is Russia doesn't mean that men on this forum cannot have affection for your country.  I have been to Russia many times over the last 20 years.  I am currently on my second trip to Russia this year and living in St. Petersburg.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 07:49:03 AM
So what?It signed a non-aggression pact that Germany violated.
Read the comments first.A man who lives in the West, is telling me about Russia.

I am glad that in the US there are people who know the truth about the war and Russia.
I came to this forum just to see.
Welcome to Russia.Good luck.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 07:56:23 AM
To be honest, I'm glad to meet with real men.
 I am tired of scammers, spammers and entertained on dating sites.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on September 04, 2015, 08:08:45 AM
Russian and Ukrainian are Slavs.We are Orthodox. We can not be divided.War provoke certain circles. You want to say that Russia has placed its troops in Libya, Iraq, Serbia?There is a war with Orthodox countries.

Putin has done a nearly perfect job of dividing Ukraine from the floundering Soviet Union 2.0 (Russia). He has, with the excellent assistance of the invading and murdering Russian Army, managed to cause Ukraine to become very pro-western. The Ukrainian national security council officially declared, two days ago, Russia as a military opponent of Ukraine, http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/09/02/world/europe/ap-eu-ukraine.html?smid=re-share&_r=0, and announced the intention to prepare Ukraine to join NATO. "We cannot be divided."??? Putin divided you...live with it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 04, 2015, 08:12:30 AM
Larissa,
   While the British were evacuating Dunkirk, where was Mother Russia?  They were busy supplying the Nazi war machine with raw materials, this cozy arrangement was also part of the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.  So you see Hitler and Stalin were allies before they were enemies.  You claim there was no Western “second front”, really?  What if the Nazi forces that the US/Britain pinned down in North Africa/Italy in 1942-1943 were instead available for use in the East, how many more Russians would have died as a result?  What if the massive US/British bombing campaign that began in earnest in 1942 to destroy the Nazi industrial base never happened, and as a result the Nazis had much more military equipment to deploy in the East, how many more Russians would have died as a result?  What if the massive amount of weapons and food that the US sent to Russia never took place, how many more Russians would have died as a result?   You may be surprised to learn that out of desperation, Stalin was considering allowing Western troops to fight in the East, but decided against it, so you might want to blame him for this, along with the purges that destroyed the top Soviet military leadership.  The reason the Soviet Union had so many casualties was Stalin and not Churchill. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: KenInUtah on September 04, 2015, 08:21:40 AM
Larissa, everyone in the US was taught ALL the facts on WWII.  That Nazi Germany fell because they could not handle a two front war, the Allies from the West and the Russians from the East.  Believe it or not, Americans all believe it was a joint effort by many countries that defeated Hitler and Hirohito.  We were not led to believe, ever, that we did it all alone and honestly, every American, Brit, Canadian, French...is offended that some Russians still believe that Russia took down Nazi Germany singlehandedly.

While there is no dispute that Russia took the most casualties, the Allies were in WWII WAY before 1944.  Here is a list of all the Allied Nations casualties.  Yes, the USSR took 1/2 of them all but there were nearly 20,000,000 allied casualties as well - Russia did not defeat the Nazis alone.

SOVIET UNION       20,000,000
CHINA                10,000,000
POLAND               5,800,000
YUGOSLAVIA        1,700,000
FRANCE               600,000
CZECHOSLOVAKIA    415,000
UNITED STATES       400,000
UNITED KINGDOM     388,000
NETHERLANDS        210,000
GREECE               160,000
BELGIUM               88,000
CANADA                    37,000
INDIA               37,000
AUSTRALIA        35,000
ALBANIA               30,000
BULGARIA               20,000
NEW ZEALAND        12,000
NORWAY                10,300
SOUTH AFRICA            7,000
ETHIOPIA                    5,000
LUXEMBOURG            5,000
MALTA                    2,000
DENMARK                    1,400
BRAZIL                    1,000
ALLIED TOTAL            39,963,700
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 08:32:32 AM
Putin has done an nearly perfect job of dividing Ukraine from the floundering Soviet Union 2.0 (Russia). He has, with excellent assistance of the invading and murdering Russian Army, managed to cause Ukraine to become very pro-western. The Ukrainian national security council officially declared, two days ago, Russia as a military opponent of Ukraine, http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2015/09/02/world/europe/ap-eu-ukraine.html?smid=re-share&_r=0, and announced the intention to prepare Ukraine to join NATO. "We cannot be divided."??? Putin divided you...live with it.

Poroshenko-Valtsman pro-Western puppet.I am a citizen of Russia, and I am opposed to NATO expansion to the East.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 08:39:40 AM
Larissa, everyone in the US was taught ALL the facts on WWII.  That Nazi Germany fell because they could not handle a two front war, the Allies from the West and the Russians from the East.  Believe it or not, Americans all believe it was a joint effort by many countries that defeated Hitler and Hirohito.  We were not led to believe, ever, that we did it all alone and honestly, every American, Brit, Canadian, French...is offended that some Russians still believe that Russia took down Nazi Germany singlehandedly.

While there is no dispute that Russia took the most casualties, the Allies were in WWII WAY before 1944.  Here is a list of all the Allied Nations casualties.  Yes, the USSR took 1/2 of them all but there were nearly 20,000,000 allied casualties as well - Russia did not defeat the Nazis alone.

SOVIET UNION       20,000,000
CHINA                10,000,000
POLAND               5,800,000
YUGOSLAVIA        1,700,000
FRANCE               600,000
CZECHOSLOVAKIA    415,000
UNITED STATES       400,000
UNITED KINGDOM     388,000
NETHERLANDS        210,000
GREECE               160,000
BELGIUM               88,000
CANADA                    37,000
INDIA               37,000
AUSTRALIA        35,000
ALBANIA               30,000
BULGARIA               20,000
NEW ZEALAND        12,000
NORWAY                10,300
SOUTH AFRICA            7,000
ETHIOPIA                    5,000
LUXEMBOURG            5,000
MALTA                    2,000
DENMARK                    1,400
BRAZIL                    1,000
ALLIED TOTAL            39,963,700

I did not say that Russia alone won the war.You have enough truthful information.I just responded to cues that the Allies won the war.I understand very little English.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: KenInUtah on September 04, 2015, 08:43:16 AM
The Allies DID win the war.  And after Hitler attacked Russia, violating the non-agression pact, Russia joined the Allies.  If you see in the list I provided, the Soviet Union is included.  the USSR was part of the Allied Coalition.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 04, 2015, 08:52:07 AM
Larissa,

Do you have any idea how offensive you are being painting Poroshenko as a Jew and, therefore, that the Jews and the West are the source of Ukraine's problems? 

By using the name Valtsman, you are trying to conjure up the image that Poroshenko, who was born to a Moldovan Jewish father, who took the name of his wife, Poroshenko, should be considered illegitimate to be the leader of Ukraine.  This is an EXTREME Russian position.  In the United States, we do not care what your origins are so much.  Look, we have a black president.  (No one on this forum likes him much.)

What I consider outrageous in the Russian thought these days is that they call Ukrainians Nazis in one sentence and led by a Jew in the next.  This is pure propaganda hatred.  It is foolish.

I cannot imagine why you would not leave alone the politics and concentrate on meeting a man.  You want men who are not scammers or there for entertainment, yet you offer extreme positions that are sure to offend any thinking Westerner.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 09:03:51 AM
Larissa,

Do you have any idea how offensive you are being painting Poroshenko as a Jew and, therefore, that the Jews and the West are the source of Ukraine's problems? 

By using the name Valtsman, you are trying to conjure up the image that Poroshenko, who was born to a Moldovan Jewish father, who took the name of his wife, Poroshenko, should be considered illegitimate to be the leader of Ukraine.  This is an EXTREME Russian position.  In the United States, we do not care what your origins are so much.  Look, we have a black president.  (No one on this forum likes him much.)

What I consider outrageous in the Russian thought these days is that they call Ukrainians Nazis in one sentence and led by a Jew in the next.  This is pure propaganda hatred.  It is foolish.

I cannot imagine why you would not leave alone the politics and concentrate on meeting a man.  You want men who are not scammers or there for entertainment, yet you offer extreme positions that are sure to offend any thinking Westerner.

In Donbass children are dying.We pray that God averted war on Russia.
I have doubt, do I have to meet someone.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 09:48:32 AM
Russian and Ukrainian are Slavs.We are Orthodox. We can not be divided.War provoke certain circles. You want to say that Russia has placed its troops in Libya, Iraq, Serbia?There is a war with Orthodox countries.


I am Ukrainian.  I am also Orthodox.  I am married to a Slav (mostly Russian).  He is Orthodox.


If you believe Putin cares about Orthodoxy, or Slavic Ukrainians, you are deeply mistaken.  There is no propaganda in stating the truth, which is that there are Russian soldiers fighting Ukrainian troops in Donbas.  Every Ukrainian soldier will tell you this.  They have seen it with their own eyes.



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 09:58:27 AM
See my links.In Russia, every meter of land drenched in the blood of our soldiers.The Battle of Kursk, the battle for Moscow, the Battle of Stalingrad, Sevastopol.Where are the allies?Our troops liberated almost all of Europe.
Give me the link for the release of European allies.

How many Russian soldiers were killed and how many Englishmen?


Every meter of Russia is not drenched in the blood of your soldiers, because not every meter of Russia saw German troops.


The Red Army didn't liberate France.  It didn't liberate the Netherlands.  It didn't liberate Belgium.  It didn't liberate Italy.  It didn't liberate Denmark.


What do we see as a commonality in the countries occupied liberated by the Red Army?  Communism imposed on them for almost half a century, with its lack of personal freedom, economic backwardness, and social misery. 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on September 04, 2015, 10:00:24 AM
Poroshenko-Valtsman pro-Western puppet.I am a citizen of Russia, and I am opposed to NATO expansion to the East.

Fine. I am a citizen of the US and a resident of Ukraine. I am opposed to moskali expansion to the West.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 10:01:05 AM
So what?It signed a non-aggression pact that Germany violated.
Read the comments first.A man who lives in the West, is telling me about Russia.

I am glad that in the US there are people who know the truth about the war and Russia.
I came to this forum just to see.
Welcome to Russia.Good luck.


Tell the 10,000 Ukrainians and Poles buried under NKVD headquarters in L'viv, after being tortured to death, that the USSR committed no "aggression" against them as a result of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 10:02:13 AM
Poroshenko-Valtsman pro-Western puppet.I am a citizen of Russia, and I am opposed to NATO expansion to the East.


But you don't get a say in who Ukrainians vote for.


Ukrainians never supported NATO until your president decided to invade them.  So that is Russian propaganda you have fallen for.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 10:03:33 AM
I did not say that Russia alone won the war.You have enough truthful information.I just responded to cues that the Allies won the war.I understand very little English.


Nobody posted that the Allies won the war.  I posted that the war was won by a joint effort, not by the Red Army alone.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 04, 2015, 10:16:12 AM
In Donbass children are dying.We pray that God averted war on Russia.
I have doubt, do I have to meet someone.


Hi Larissa, i expanded your avatar to have a better look at you.


(http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac150/clmontes/zombies_zps32e91e7b.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 04, 2015, 10:35:37 AM
Jon,


Since you are in St. Petersburg you should swing by the PutinBot spammer factory and say Hi to Larissa.  :wallbash:


HDL
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 10:38:23 AM
Her view is not uncommon in Russia, in fact, it is the majority view.  Or, so I've been told.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 04, 2015, 12:14:44 PM
Her view is not uncommon in Russia, in fact, it is the majority view.  Or, so I've been told.


It is a shame that there is now this "cold war" like distrust between citizens of the two countries...


HDL
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 04, 2015, 12:59:41 PM
Yah know what I can't figure out?

Why the Russians can't do the math?  Before Maidan, they had about 53, maybe 52% Party of Regions.  They go in and lop off of Crimea.  Then they go in and stir up Donbass and Lugansk.  Then they can't figure out why the electoral map has tilted against them. 

They keep everyone in place, don't steal Crimea, and in four years they would have had their own guy ruining the country again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 04, 2015, 01:23:46 PM
There is some hope.
A few days ago I was speaking with a Russian citizen from St. Petersburg. She was here on a J1 visa, working in a National Park. She does not like Putin. She does not like Russian propaganda. She sees people here in the USA. She knows that most of them are not thinking about Russia or Ukraine or the Donbas region. She sees RT news telling Russian people that the USA wants to 'conquer' Russia. She knows it is ridiculous. When she goes home to Russia, her friends and relatives tell her to not be so outspoken about Russian propaganda. They are worried that she could be punished or harmed. She told me many people in Russia believe the propaganda because they hear it over and over again, every day. So...there are some Russians who know the truth.
   On the other hand, one of my friends in Kyiv thinks that the war is very confusing. She is pretty sure that some people are making money from the war. She is cynical about the new government in Kiev. She acknowledges that a lot of the problems are due to corruption in the entire country. It looks like the optimism of Maidan is slowly giving way to pessimism... 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 04, 2015, 01:40:22 PM
Larissa2,
Remember when Putin went to Normandy to remember the Allied invasion? Soldiers and civilians from many different countries died during WWII. Did you know that the allies sent many planes and supplies to Russia during the war? Did you know that Stalin and Hitler agreed to allow each other to invade Poland?

Why is Russia so afraid of NATO? What has NATO done to Russia? Why are so many countries afraid of Russia? Scandinavia? The Baltics? Georgia? Even Belarus has stated that they will defend themselves against Russian invaders. Who is more dangerous- Russia or NATO? Why do so many Russian elites choose to attend universities in the West? Why has Putin chosen to push Ukrainians away from Russia? Why does Putin threaten Ukraine, when Ukrainians choose to trade with the EU? Why does Moscow lie about the US wanting to conquer Russia?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:06:01 PM
Larissa2,
Remember when Putin went to Normandy to remember the Allied invasion? Soldiers and civilians from many different countries died during WWII. Did you know that the allies sent many planes and supplies to Russia during the war? Did you know that Stalin and Hitler agreed to allow each other to invade Poland?

Why is Russia so afraid of NATO? What has NATO done to Russia? Why are so many countries afraid of Russia? Scandinavia? The Baltics? Georgia? Even Belarus has stated that they will defend themselves against Russian invaders. Who is more dangerous- Russia or NATO? Why do so many Russian elites choose to attend universities in the West? Why has Putin chosen to push Ukrainians away from Russia? Why does Putin threaten Ukraine, when Ukrainians choose to trade with the EU? Why does Moscow lie about the US wanting to conquer Russia?

The Russia dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
The Russia committed genocide in Serbia, Libya, Iraq?
The Russia seeks to dominate the world?
The Russia defends all the time.
I understand you is not pleasant, but it's a fact.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: HoundDaddyLee on September 04, 2015, 04:15:26 PM
The Russia dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki?



 :cluebat:  Seriously? We dropped the bomb to avoid millions of further casualties.We saved many Russian lives by doing that. You do know that Russia had declared war on Japan, right?



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:19:25 PM
Why Russia does not place its troops near the US?
Why is the United States wants to deploy troops around Russia?
Why is the US all the time interferes in the affairs of other countries?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:23:54 PM

 :cluebat:  Seriously? We dropped the bomb to avoid millions of further casualties.We saved many Russian lives by doing that. You do know that Russia had declared war on Japan, right?

 Seriously.
Russia to liberate its territories Sakhalin and the Kuriles.This is our territory
Japan, together with Germany declared war on Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Faux Pas on September 04, 2015, 04:31:07 PM
Her view is not uncommon in Russia, in fact, it is the majority view.  Or, so I've been told.

Unfortunately, this is true. Many of my wife's friends and our joint friends in Russia are towing the party propaganda. My wife and her sister will no longer discuss politics with the MIL, she too has drank the kool aid
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: alex330 on September 04, 2015, 04:35:25 PM
Her view is not uncommon in Russia, in fact, it is the majority view.  Or, so I've been told.

Not uncommon for Russians living here in the US as well. We no longer speak to a number of individuals because of this. Turns my stomach they are so blind.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 04, 2015, 04:50:03 PM
It’s ironic to hear how Russians are disturbed by or outraged over the civilian casualties in the Donbas Russian/Ukrainian conflict, while at the same time Russian actions would seem to indicate that producing these casualties is in fact their goal.  Let the people from Donbas tell you themselves:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-misrepresent-protester-demands-in-donetsk/

Russian units park their artillery in residential areas alongside occupied houses and shell Ukrainian positions and then pull-out before the Ukrainian counter-fire kills innocent civilians.
A deliberate action on part of the Russians who just as easily could’ve chosen an unoccupied area.  Then of course when civilians are killed Russians point their fingers at the “Fascist Junta”, and claim that Russia is just protecting the poor Russian speaking civilians there, ...
Hopefully the people in Donbas who were in this video will slowly begin to realize that these actions are not accidental and that they are just pawns and that their lives are of no real value to anyone in the Kremlin except for their propaganda value.  Meanwhile, we have captured Russian soldiers in Donbas, captured Russian military hardware, the leaders of the DPR are all Russian, and yet somehow Russian media is able to label this as “America’s War”. 

When I lived in Ukraine, I felt enormous sympathy for the young people I met there, even before the war, they lacked a future, one of my former employees from Kharkiv is now
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 04, 2015, 04:56:11 PM
It’s ironic to hear how Russians are disturbed by or outraged over the civilian casualties in the Donbas Russian/Ukrainian conflict, while at the same time Russian actions would seem to indicate that producing these casualties is in fact their goal.  Let the people from Donbas tell you themselves:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/russian-media-misrepresent-protester-demands-in-donetsk/

Russian units park their artillery in residential areas alongside occupied houses and shell Ukrainian positions and then pull-out before the Ukrainian counter-fire kills innocent civilians.
A deliberate action on part of the Russians who just as easily could’ve chosen an unoccupied area.  Then of course when civilians are killed Russians point their fingers at the “Fascist Junta”, and claim that Russia is just protecting the poor Russian speaking civilians there, ...
Hopefully the people in Donbas who were in this video will slowly begin to realize that these actions are not accidental and that they are just pawns and that their lives are of no real value to anyone in the Kremlin except for their propaganda value.  Meanwhile, we have captured Russian soldiers in Donbas, captured Russian military hardware, the leaders of the DPR are all Russian, and yet somehow Russian media is able to label this as “America’s War”. 

When I lived in Ukraine, I felt enormous sympathy for the young people I met there, even before the war, they lacked a future, one of my former employees from Kharkiv is now

Yes.Russia on itself attacked.
Russia has placed the Indians on reservations.
Putin is to blame. :) :) :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 04, 2015, 05:04:51 PM
Quote
Yes.Russia on itself attacked.


Donbas is not in Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 04, 2015, 05:47:07 PM
Yes Larissa, Russia HAS attacked itself many times! There were an estimated 7,000,000-12,000,000 deaths during the Russian Civil War of 1917-1922, most of whom were civilians...   Do you have any idea of how many Soviet citizens were killed in the 1937-1938 purge?  Here, let me tell you, the answer is almost 700,000!  Any idea how many died during the Holodomor? What, you don’t even know what that is?  Well let me provide you with that answer as well, the number is in the millions!   Yeah, Russians worried about the fate of Russian speakers, so very sad, they should do something about it...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 04, 2015, 06:40:51 PM
Larissa,

I live in Russia. I am a journalist accredited with the Russian Foreign Ministry.

I have been in Eastern Ukraine, and yes there are Russian soldiers there. In fact, the Russian government has already awarded death benefits to the families of over 2,000 dead Russian young men. Over 3,200 disabled soldiers received cash disability payouts from the Russian government for injuries suffered from fighting in Eastern Ukraine. To receive benefits the families must agree to a code of silence.

What you see on Russian television, especially on channels like the First Channel, is nothing but pure lies.

By the way, I am also Russian Orthodox.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 04, 2015, 08:23:51 PM
Larisa, I can understand the Russian feelings of pain over the Great Patriotic War. I have spent countless hours over the years at Victory Park in Moscow. I have seen the 1,418 fountains, one for each day of the war, run red at night to symbolize the millions who died.

Very few families were untouched by death and suffering in those years. As a Russian Orthodox believer, I pray for the souls of those who perished and ask that God grant them eternal memory.


(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/moscow-jun2-2015-z-979.jpg?w=660) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/moscow-jun2-2015-z-979.jpg)

(photo: Mendeleyev Journal)


I have stood countless times to admire the tall St George obelisk, towering 1,418 metres high.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/8-24-11-moscow-619.jpg?w=660) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/8-24-11-moscow-619.jpg)

(photo: Mendeleyev Journal)


I have toured the museum with hall after hall of displays, including the displays of equipment sent to Russia by the USA and other Allies.

(http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/8-24-11-moscow-759.jpg?w=660) (http://russianreport.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/8-24-11-moscow-759.jpg)

(photo: Mendeleyev Journal)


Last year my mother-in-law, retired professor at МГУ, published a book on the children who survived that dark period, and who are now elderly adults. I have met several of those wonderful people, and have a deep respect for what they suffered.

I have also met with elderly soldiers who remember the first aid kits and meal packs from the USA. Stalin had ordered that whenever possible the English lettering be removed or covered, but more than one Red Army veteran has described in detail the mush, a mixture of hashed meat, potato and corn, which was designed to deliver 900-1100 calories. Some of them swear that they could still recall the taste of those tins that came from strange sounding places with Indian names, like Kansas, Iowa, Nebraska, and South Dakota.

Early this summer I visited, with a military historian escort (a Colonel), several places of significance in the fighting outside of Moscow. I witnessed the removal of fictitious names from monuments, and then the imprinting of real names, where whole armies and generals had been simply wiped off the pages of history because Stalin had purged their leaders. Thankfully, the current government is fixing that sad part of Soviet history, and true heroes are being given back their rightful place in history.

Having grown up primarily in America, schools consistently teach the history that the Red Army played a vital role in the victory, and that the Soviet Union suffered more causalities than all the other nations put together. There is great respect for men like Marshal Zhukov.

Not so long ago, fellow Russian journalist Ilya Varlamov, a highly respected photo journalist, toured the USA in summer. He wrote about how little he encountered about Russia. When introduced, most people greeted him warmly. He found an almost complete absence of anything about Russia in the news.

Since you brought up the subject of Russia being Orthodox, you might be surprised at the number of Orthodox in North America. Just in the USA, and not including Canada or Mexico, there are almost 1,500 Orthodox Churches. Most of these were started by either the Greeks or the Russians. In fact, I will bet that you are very aware of a famous USA Saint--Tikhon. You probably know him as the Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia, Тихон. Did your education of Тихон include the fact that he was a naturalized citizen of the USA and served as the Archbishop of all America prior to being elected the new Patriarch of Russia?

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 04, 2015, 09:11:57 PM
One of my best memories of Sevastopol was one day walking home from the beach up a long hill, on my way up, I was approaching a short, very elderly man who seemed to be struggling but was persevering, as I approached, I said “drasvidi”, and we mutually inspected each other for a moment, he wore a black kapka, blue jacket adorned with many medals and the bluest eyes I’ve ever seen, we exchanged greetings, I explained I was an American (I think he could figure that out!) living in Sevastopol with my family.  I asked about his many medals, he said “Stalingrad”. I offered him my arm and we slowly climbed the hill, and we talked a bit, I invited him to my home for lunch which was just off the top of the hill, he accepted (wife wasn’t too happy about bringing strangers home, got a lecture about that), she reluctantly played host and translator.  The stories he told were beyond anything the average person could ever imagine.  Imagine having Typhoid, fleas, dysentary, no food, no water, trying to dig a fox hole in frozen ground with bullets passing inches over your head, the bodies of your comrades laying frozen all around you...  When we parted, I held his hands and said 'spossiba, he smiled and winked at me and I never saw him again.
There ain’t a drop of hatred in my heart for the Russian people, but Putin what you’re doing to them really pisses me off!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 04, 2015, 09:25:55 PM
oh and my second best memory of Sevastopol were the topless women at the beach, got a lecture about that to...
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on September 04, 2015, 10:26:42 PM
Krimster2,

Nice story about the old man in Sevastopol.  Your bringing back some of the best memories of our recent past.  A short vacation together to Sevastopol is when my wife and I fell in love with each other.  Setting off our first Chinese lantern on the waterfront one evening.  The incredible tour of the underground submarine base at Balaclava and the tour of the ancient ruins, etc.

It was peaceful, everyone got along with each other and at that time many Ukrainians vacationed in Crimea including my MIL.  It is very sad that the gutless Europeans allowed Putin to invade and occupy this wonderful land.  I hope that eventually it will be returned to Ukraine and can once again be shared by everyone.

I had similar experiences talking to natives in Ukraine during my many trips.  Once making friends of several families I would be taken around to their friends and formed many more friendships.  Never, was there one person that showed any animosity toward me as an American.  They seemed as interested in me and my culture as I was about theirs.

The only time I recall the natives being reluctant to speak was when I was attempting to learn their feelings about the presidential elections and Yanukovich.   
Clearly they had a fear of their political feelings being known outside their own family.  It reminded me of the stories we had heard for years about that same behavior (fear) being widespread in Russia
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 01:52:57 AM

Donbas is not in Russia.

The residents of Donbass not want to be a part of Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 01:55:55 AM
Larissa,

I live in Russia. I am a journalist accredited with the Russian Foreign Ministry.

I have been in Eastern Ukraine, and yes there are Russian soldiers there. In fact, the Russian government has already awarded death benefits to the families of over 2,000 dead Russian young men. Over 3,200 disabled soldiers received cash disability payouts from the Russian government for injuries suffered from fighting in Eastern Ukraine. To receive benefits the families must agree to a code of silence.

What you see on Russian television, especially on channels like the First Channel, is nothing but pure lies.

By the way, I am also Russian Orthodox.

 Do you offer to place NATO troops in Donbass?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 02:02:48 AM
Yes Larissa, Russia HAS attacked itself many times! There were an estimated 7,000,000-12,000,000 deaths during the Russian Civil War of 1917-1922, most of whom were civilians...   Do you have any idea of how many Soviet citizens were killed in the 1937-1938 purge?  Here, let me tell you, the answer is almost 700,000!  Any idea how many died during the Holodomor? What, you don’t even know what that is?  Well let me provide you with that answer as well, the number is in the millions!   Yeah, Russians worried about the fate of Russian speakers, so very sad, they should do something about it...

You are right.Russia has waged war against Orthodoxy. Orthodox Tsar Nicholas II killed Freemasons.It was a ritual murder.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 05, 2015, 02:05:38 AM
I do respect the right should Ukraine want to align with other nations, but I have no desire for NATO in Ukraine.

However, I do want Russian troops out of Eastern Ukraine.

Larissa, were you against the NATO base that was in Ulyanovsk? That is the birthplace of Vladimir Lenin! It was good rent money for the Kremlin but the arrangement ended in 2013.

http://rbth.com/international/2013/08/16/nato-russia_cooperation_stalls_at_ulyanovsk_reverse_transit_hub_28979.html (http://rbth.com/international/2013/08/16/nato-russia_cooperation_stalls_at_ulyanovsk_reverse_transit_hub_28979.html)
(Perhaps you know this news organization. It is part of the Russia Today organization.)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 02:59:35 AM
After Gorbachev and Yeltsin  Russia smashed to pieces, we have local wars. I want  to us to be left in peace  who provoked the war.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 05, 2015, 07:48:19 AM
Larissa, so Gorbachev and Yeltsin were the bad guys. I assume then that Putin is the peaceful guy?

Do his wars in Chechnya not count?

Now that he has taken credit for starting the war with Georgia as a mean to fight terrorism prior to the Olympics, does that count?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 05, 2015, 07:55:11 AM
For the record, I do understand what you mean. I will translate for you:

Gorbachev and Yeltsin destroyed what had been the Soviet Union. Since that time, all the former republics that had been held together by force have failed to show their expected appreciation for holy Mother Russia, and instead have tried to separate themselves from a former Master. Putin is putting a stop to all that and is working to bring unity. Sometimes that means a little force is needed to hammer home the idea of who is boss, but in the end, once everybody learns their place, all will be peaceful and quiet again.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on September 05, 2015, 08:11:10 AM
Has anyone mentioned here (in perhaps other threads), the latest silliness that is in official Russia news reports.

Ochka tells that these reports state that USA businesses and our government is financing the current movement of illegals into the Western European countries.  Our goal is to destabilize Western Europe.

And next, the USA will finance the movement of illegals into China and Russia to destabilize those countries also.

She continues to be amazed how the Russian public believes this stuff after knowing full well the total lies that they were fed during Soviet time.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: alex330 on September 05, 2015, 08:12:56 AM
Has anyone mentioned here (in perhaps other threads), the latest silliness that is in official Russia news reports.

Ochka tells that these reports state that USA businesses and our government is financing the current movement of illegals into the Western European countries.  Our goal is to destabilize Western Europe.

It is also a rumor among certain groups here in the US. Dunno if there is anything to it, but anything is possible.

http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/september/04/false-flag-alert-on-refugee-crisis/ (http://ronpaulinstitute.org/archives/featured-articles/2015/september/04/false-flag-alert-on-refugee-crisis/)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 05, 2015, 09:25:04 AM
The residents of Donbass not want to be a part of Ukraine.

Then why have most of them left Donbas and moved to other parts of Ukraine?  Most of the people who have fled the war in Donbas live in other parts of Ukraine.  Not Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 05, 2015, 09:27:37 AM
She continues to be amazed how the Russian public believes this stuff after knowing full well the total lies that they were fed during Soviet time.


Most of them believed the lies they were fed during Soviet times, too.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 05, 2015, 09:37:39 AM
After Gorbachev and Yeltsin  Russia smashed to pieces, we have local wars. I want  to us to be left in peace  who provoked the war.


Correction.  The USSR was "smashed to pieces". 


Local wars were inevitable because the Soviet Union was held together by force.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 11:13:08 PM
Then why have most of them left Donbas and moved to other parts of Ukraine?  Most of the people who have fled the war in Donbas live in other parts of Ukraine.  Not Russia.

Do you have statistics?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 11:20:22 PM

Correction.  The USSR was "smashed to pieces". 


Local wars were inevitable because the Soviet Union was held together by force.

86% of Ukrainians wanted to remain in the Soviet Union.This statistic.The other republics were against as well.Mason Gorbachev to blame for the troubles of Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 11:28:22 PM
Larissa, so Gorbachev and Yeltsin were the bad guys. I assume then that Putin is the peaceful guy?

Do his wars in Chechnya not count?

Now that he has taken credit for starting the war with Georgia as a mean to fight terrorism prior to the Olympics, does that count?

Yes.Gorbachev and Yeltsin are to blame for the troubles of Russia.They brought the country to poverty.Putin is trying to raise the country, but this is difficult to do alone.Our Parliament takes stupid laws.Our oligarchs are all stolen.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 05, 2015, 11:43:55 PM
Yah know what I can't figure out?

Why the Russians can't do the math?  Before Maidan, they had about 53, maybe 52% Party of Regions.  They go in and lop off of Crimea.  Then they go in and stir up Donbass and Lugansk.  Then they can't figure out why the electoral map has tilted against them. 

They keep everyone in place, don't steal Crimea, and in four years they would have had their own guy ruining the country again.

Crimea is Russian territory.In Crimea, the referendum was held.Almost all of the residents were in favor of joining Russia.Khrushchev gave Crimea to Ukraine in 1954.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:25:47 AM
Do you have statistics?


This is for Donetsk only, it doesn't include Luhansk.


http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/search?page=search&docid=54d4a2889&query=donetsk


The number as of May, 2015, increased to 1.2 million.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:28:05 AM
86% of Ukrainians wanted to remain in the Soviet Union.This statistic.The other republics were against as well.Mason Gorbachev to blame for the troubles of Russia.


Irrelevant to today.  Polls in 2013 found that the majority of residents of Donbas supported Ukrainian independence.



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 12:31:43 AM

This is for Donetsk only, it doesn't include Luhansk.


http://www.unhcr.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/search?page=search&docid=54d4a2889&query=donetsk


The number as of May, 2015, increased to 1.2 million.

http://youtu.be/uPwSwJsyyVI

Are you russian?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:33:38 AM
Yes.Gorbachev and Yeltsin are to blame for the troubles of Russia.They brought the country to poverty.Putin is trying to raise the country, but this is difficult to do alone.Our Parliament takes stupid laws.Our oligarchs are all stolen.


The USSR had been in economic decline since the 1960's.  The KGB wanted Gorbachev appointed, that has been verified since the collapse of the USSR. 


Yeltsin's surroundings, and the prescription of "shock therapy" created the oligarchs.  However, how has Putin made any difference?   Its economy is still too reliant on oil and gas, huge tracts of the country are mired in poverty, and there is no rule of law.  Putin has magnified, rather than minimized these problems.


By the way, my Soviet born husband refers to the USSR as a "belch of hell".  He does not lament its collapse, and prays for Yeltsin, as he says he played an important role in kicking a rotten system to the trash heap of history.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 12:35:07 AM

Irrelevant to today.  Polls in 2013 found that the majority of residents of Donbas supported Ukrainian independence.

A bad beginning makes a bad ending.A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:36:03 AM
Are you russian?




http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg412924#msg412924
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 12:39:34 AM



http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg412924#msg412924

Наши Святые Александр Невский,Дмитрий Донской И Александр Суворов были патриотами своей Родины.
Если вы позиционируете себя Православным,хотя бы не лейте грязь на Родину .
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:43:17 AM
A bad beginning makes a bad ending.A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.


The bad beginning was in November 1917 (or October, depending on which calendar you use).  Of course it had a bad ending.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:44:26 AM
Quote
Если вы позиционируете себя Православным,хотя бы не лейте грязь на Родину .

Your current leaders are pouring dirt on their Motherland.

My husband would say that pouring dirt on the USSR, a state which tried to destroy him, is his right as a human being.  He heard those types of words often, and says it just indicates the obscurity of the individual.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 01:12:19 AM
Православный человек всегда патриот своей родины. Если это не так,то этот человек не православный. Либо он неправильно понимает православие.Родина одна. Она не продаётся и не предаётся.

http://azbyka.ru/dictionary/15/patriotizm.shtml
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 01:13:56 AM
His "rodina" rejected him, not vice versa.  He says he feels less a foreigner here than he did in his rodina.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 01:44:29 AM
Еду я на родину,
Пусть кричат - уродина,
А она нам нравится,
Хоть и не красавица,
К сволочи доверчива,

Матф. 23: 23 Горе вам, книжники и фарисеи, лицемеры, что даете десятину с мяты, аниса и тмина, и оставили важнейшее в законе: суд, милость и веру; сие надлежало делать, и того не оставлять.

Матф. 23: 6 также любят предвозлежания на пиршествах и председания в синагогах  и приветствия в народных собраниях, и чтобы люди звали их: учитель! учитель!

Матф. 23:4 связывают бремена тяжелые и неудобоносимые и возлагают на плечи людям

"Ищите прежде Царства Божия и правды его,а всё остальное приложится вам".

Николай второй мог бы уехать ,но предпочёл умереть вместе с народом. Православный христианин живёт в этой,временной жизни,для вечности. Предавать свою Родину это большой грех.
Наше дело-свою душу спасать,а не об олигархах думать,если мы настоящие христиане.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on September 06, 2015, 02:57:14 AM
For anyone who ever thought that the Russian propaganda was not effective or dangerous-just read the  denial of reality and the sheer blind stupidity of Larissa's beliefs and the interpretation of history that she believes.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 06, 2015, 08:12:18 AM
Re-posted for Larissa2.

This video shows a protest inside of Donetsk. The second part of the video shows Moscow's edited version of events.

http://youtu.be/tRMuqO9ZjnI


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 11:30:50 AM
I could show you a lot of other movies.But I'm afraid that my Ukrainian "friends" offended me.I saw the refugees in my town.Some came to home clothes.I am a patriot of his homeland.I can leave, but never betray their homeland.I saw life under Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin.We were great then deceived.Putin is doing everything right.

That is why I do not need to watch videos.I have eyes.I'll be glad to close this topic at this forum for myself.
 :) :) :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 06, 2015, 11:51:42 AM
Good luck on finding a man.  With your attitude you are going to need a miracle.  I would suggest you look in Russia for your man. 

Russians are the only ones who are buying what you're selling. 

You sound like the news reporter for Channel 1.  Which you probably think is a good news station.

I am curious to know if you think Stalin was a great man?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 06, 2015, 11:52:52 AM
Larissa, It is difficult for you to see the truth in
the video. Everyone knows there are many
refugees in Russia. Also many in western
Ukraine and Poland.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on September 06, 2015, 12:27:58 PM
t.

.I'll be glad to close this topic at this forum for myself.
 :) :) :)




BYE :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat: :cluebat:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 06, 2015, 12:56:24 PM
I could show you a lot of other movies.But I'm afraid that my Ukrainian "friends" offended me.I saw the refugees in my town.Some came to home clothes.I am a patriot of his homeland.I can leave, but never betray their homeland.I saw life under Brezhnev, Gorbachev and Yeltsin.We were great then deceived.Putin is doing everything right.


Putin is right because he is still alive.  Your leaders are not right when they're dead.  It is part of the fear instilled in you.


I never stated there are no refugees from Donbas in Russia.  I stated that most of the refugees are in Ukraine.  That is a fact.  More of these "pro Russians" flee internally, to Ukraine, than they do to Russia.  As for the rest, I will provide a poem by Nabokov



К России

Отвяжись, я тебя умоляю!
Вечер страшен, гул жизни затих.
Я беспомощен. Я умираю
от слепых наплываний твоих.

Тот, кто вольно отчизну покинул,
волен выть на вершинах о ней,
но теперь я спустился в долину,
и теперь приближаться не смей.

Навсегда я готов затаиться
и без имени жить. Я готов,
чтоб с тобой и во снах не сходиться,
отказаться от всяческих снов;

обескровить себя, искалечить,
не касаться любимейших книг,
променять на любое наречье
все, что есть у меня,- мой язык.

Но зато, о Россия, сквозь слезы,
сквозь траву двух несмежных могил,
сквозь дрожащие пятна березы,
сквозь все то, чем я смолоду жил,

дорогими слепыми глазами
не смотри на меня, пожалей,
не ищи в этой угольной яме,
не нащупывай жизни моей!

Ибо годы прошли и столетья,
и за горе, за муку, за стыд,-
поздно, поздно!- никто не ответит,
и душа никому не простит.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 06, 2015, 01:58:33 PM
Larissa, I'm willing to bet that you have no idea of the wording of the 2 questions on the Crimea referendum. If you do, then please list them here.

If you do not, which I strongly suspect, then I'll provide the wording for you.

If you have an open mind, which I doubt, then you may be surprised.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 06, 2015, 02:03:12 PM
PS...if time of possession is how you base the theory of Crimea belonging to Russia, then the Greeks, the Turks and Tatars have far more right to claim Crimea.

Using the theory of time of possession, then Russia should face the truth and return Peter to the Swedes and give Kaliningrad to the Germans.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 08:46:09 PM
Менделеев,извини,но я что-то устала от вас. В России таких полным-полно,да ещё здесь. Родина,она как мама ,понимаешь? Вот ты стал бы предавать свою маму? Я думаю,что нет.

Вот так и здесь. Человек,который предаёт свою родину,не любит своих предков, не уважает свои корни. Это с человек без будущего.

A clean hand wants no washing.

Единожды предав – предаст не раз,
Единожды солгав – солжет и дважды,
Хоть ложь не выставляют на показ,
Но избежать ее не сможет каждый.

Всего доброго.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 08:53:23 PM
Good luck on finding a man.  With your attitude you are going to need a miracle.  I would suggest you look in Russia for your man. 

Russians are the only ones who are buying what you're selling. 

You sound like the news reporter for Channel 1.  Which you probably think is a good news station.

I am curious to know if you think Stalin was a great man?

I'm not going to get married.Just looking.In order to understand Stalin's need to know the history of Russia.
In some ways I agree with him, but largely do not agree.

I'm only a few days on the site.I have the impression that you are the only person here not aggressive.
Although perhaps I'm wrong.
10 times you were in Russia, but did not find anyone.Good luck on finding a woman.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 06, 2015, 09:33:39 PM
I'm not going to get married.Just looking.In order to understand Stalin's need to know the history of Russia.
In some ways I agree with him, but largely do not agree.

I'm only a few days on the site.I have the impression that you are the only person here not aggressive.
Although perhaps I'm wrong.
10 times you were in Russia, but did not find anyone.Good luck on finding a woman.

Silly woman.   I am in Peter with my Fiancee.   

As for being in Russia more than ten times without finding a woman?  Who said I was here those other times looking?

I had business interests in Russia, in the Golden Ring.  Only one time did I come here to date a woman. I am a serious man and do not date simply to date.  I dated to find a wife.  Fortunately, my dating days are over.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 06, 2015, 09:42:24 PM
Good luck. I think,you are very clever.I hope your fiancee is not a traitor Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on September 06, 2015, 11:57:34 PM
Putler is the greatest traitor to Russia since Stalin.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 07, 2015, 01:11:02 AM
Here is a lady who thinks if someone has an opinion other than hers that they are a traitor to Russia.  Sometimes I throw up my hands in frustration in interacting with these people.

Larissa, for your information, I was one of the business investors who had investments in Russia.  I pulled them out early on in the Ukrainian conflict, when I knew that Putin wasn't going to stop after Krim.  I was one of the lucky ones getting out earlier than most (who lost much of the equity of their investments). 

You have demonstrated that you know nothing of international commerce and how it impacts your life.  You are about to get a life lesson as Russia has isolated itself from the international community.  If the price of oil remains low and the  international community continues the embargo of international investment, Russians will be forced to a significantly reduced standard of living.   I don't think this is what you want.  Those of us who watched the destruction of imported food in Russia were sickened by it. 

Your thoughts that Putin is doing everything right won't put bread on the table.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 07, 2015, 01:26:57 AM
Larissa, it is not the mark of a traitor to love a country, yet be sickened by its mistakes. The list of beloved Russians over the breadth of history who have opposed the government include men and women like Pushkin, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, Andrei Sakharov, Osip Mandelstam, Anna Ahkmatova, and Boris Pasternak, among others to name just a few.

Better to have open eyes and speak truth, than to be blinded by willful ignorance.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: abashka on September 07, 2015, 04:44:18 AM
Sorry, I will write in Russian..

Лариса, любовь к Родине не тождественна любви к власти. Это Вам и пытаются здесь объяснить. Мне импонирует то, как Вы защищаете нашу страну, это похвально, но, к сожалению, есть объективные факты, которые нельзя игнорировать.

Я люблю свою Родину, я люблю и ценю ее историю, культуру и народ, оба моих деда проливали кровь в Великую Отечественную (под Сталинградом и на Курской дуге), и если я когда-нибудь уеду из этой страны, это не будет означать,что я ее предам или стану любить ее меньше.

Наивно было бы считать, что, придя на западный форум, Вы получите поддержку таких взглядов, учитывая то, как сильна у нас сейчас пропаганда, влиянию которой Вы подвержены (поверьте мне, гораздо более, чем "у них"), и как Вы реагируете на конструктивную критику.

Я не хочу вдаваться в политику, всегда стремлюсь оставаться вне ее, но я также вижу, что часть вины за то, что сейчас происходит в соседней стране, лежит на моей Родине (кстати, у меня много родственников в Крыму и Киеве, и я вижу ситуацию с двух сторон).

При этом, я поддерживаю множество хороших начинаний нашей текущей власти, считала и считаю, что в данное время сильнее лидера у нас нет, но то, что у нас сейчас реально происходит, мне очень не нравится.
Жертвы среди мирного населения, о которых Вы пишете, есть с обеих сторон. Только, к сожалению, в России об этом говорить не принято. Никто не хочет войны, никто не хочет жертв, но сейчас во главе угла стоят политические интересы. И если несогласие с политикой текущей власти у нас теперь считается предательством, то, увы...

Далее, у меня вопрос, несколькими страницами ранее Вы писали, что устали от скаммеров на сайтах знакомств и прочее, и рады увидеть здесь реальных людей. Насколько я понимаю, Вы ищете западного православного мужчину, в противном случае, зачем все эти телодвижения?

Если это действительно так, то позвольте дать Вам совет - я очень уважаю людей, которые умеют отстаивать свою точку зрения, но нужно уметь быть объективным и проявлять гибкость. В противном случае, если Вы найдете мужчину, то с таким подходом Вам будет очень тяжело адаптироваться в новой стране.

Извините, пожалуйста, если пост показался резким, не имела в виду ничего плохого.


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 07, 2015, 07:56:53 AM
That's a nice post. Thank you...

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on September 07, 2015, 09:37:28 AM
Very nicely said Abashka! :clapping: :clapping: :clapping:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 08, 2015, 12:26:35 AM
 :) :) :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 08, 2015, 01:10:54 AM
Sorry, I will write in Russian..

Лариса, любовь к Родине не тождественна любви к власти. Это Вам и пытаются здесь объяснить.

Это как? И рыбку съесть и .....это.
Так вы другой власти и не заслужили.

Здесь идёт информационная война против вашей родины,а вы извиняетесь,что на русском пишете.Может,вы ещё извинитесь ,что вы русская? Какая досада,не правда ли?
 Ваш дед воевал на Курской дуге,а вы молчите,когда вам говорят,что войну выиграли союзники.
А ведь это только часть информационной войны против России.
Соответственно,вы предаёте память своего деда ,который за вас воевал и за тех,кто сейчас распространяет клевету о России. Так вы ещё не просто молчите ,а пытаетесь им подыгрывать.
Этакой добренькой хотите казаться.И вашим и нашим.

Нельзя быть немножко беременной.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 08, 2015, 01:12:09 AM
Боль России, которую предвидел великий русский писатель более 100 лет назад(!), оказалась еще более мучительной, чем та, которую он предвещал. Главное предательство русской России состоялось не со стороны балканских славян и даже не со стороны Болгарии, дважды предавшей русских в XX веке. Главное предательство состоялось со стороны самой близкой общерусскому стволу ветви — ветви малороссийской. Все прозрения Достоевского оказались отнесены, именно к Украине, которой наречено было быть навеки с русским народом. Она же, предав всю свою историю, всю свою борьбу за общерусское единство, предав своих ближайших братьев, упала в объятия наших врагов. Теперь уж эти объятья стали тисками, да только признаться в этом на Украине не могут и душат, изничтожают ежедневно в себе русскую душу, стремясь стать американо-европейцами, выторговать себе хоть уголок в "европейском доме" — пусть их далее прихожей в этот дом и не пустят, а расстелят перед входом половичком, чтобы ноги вытирать.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 08, 2015, 01:53:40 AM
Larissa,

There are many sources for information in this world.  I have the pleasure of reading and viewing many of them.  I was in the Southern Urals, in May.  I watched the news and read your newspapers.  They are not giving you the truth.  They only tell things that make Russia look favorable. 

I know you do not believe this but I have no reason to lie. 

In my home country, the United States, people do not care about Russia.  They don't think about the Russian people.  If you asked someone where Ufa is, they do not know where it is.

Yet every third or fourth article or story I hear in Russia is about the United States.  Why do you think that is? 

**************************************

In the City of Pskov, there are a great number of fresh graves.  These graves are from paratroopers who fought for their country in Ukraine.  When Putin was saying that there were no Russian troops in Donbas, these men were getting killed there.   But you choose not to look.   You choose not to acknowledge.  You say anyone who says things against your country is a traitor.

In the end you will be forced to acknowledge what we all know to be true.  Russian soldiers are getting killed in Eastern Ukraine.  They are coming home in Cargo 200 trucks.  The actions, yes, the entire war in Eastern Ukraine were fomented by Russian agent-provocateurs. 

***********************************************

You have called Poroshenko a Jew.   You have also stated that the reason Ukraine is fighting is because they are being led by Nazis.  Yet you cannot resolve these two statements because the truth is much simpler.  Poroshenko was elected in a free election.  The conflict in Eastern Ukraine started before he was elected President. 

Poroshenko is the 5th President of Ukraine.  He did not participate in Maidan but he did pay for supplies for the protesters.   He actually held office under Yanukovych as Economic Minister.    This was under the Party of Regions, the party that supports closer ties with Russia.  He was also Foreign Minister under another President.   Once it became apparent that Yanukovych would not survive, Russia actually championed the same election that brought Poroshenko to power.  When the election was completed, Putin claimed it was a fair election.

Now, because Ukraine wishes to align more closely to the West, Russia claims that Ukraine is being run by Jews and Nazis. 

**********************************************

Why do you think that all of the Western Countries allied themselves together (along with many former Soviet Republics) to condemn Russia and create sanctions against Russia for actions in Eastern Ukraine?  Why do you think that only Russia would not allow a United Nations inquiry into the shoot down of the Airliner in Eastern Ukraine?

**********************************************

Russia is isolating itself.  You asked if my woman is a traitor.  She is not.  Russia is being run by a group of men called the Siloviki.  It is the same group of people from where V. V. Putin came.  These people believe that only if Russia has great nationalism can it be great again.  So they isolate themselves and see enemies around every corner. 

This is not the Russia I love.  You have joined a forum that extends an outreach to people like yourself.  So far you have swatted away the hands that are reaching out to you.  Yet still you come on here and argue against people that have great knowledge and great love for your country.  Is this the way you treat guests in your home?



Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: abashka on September 08, 2015, 02:51:39 AM
Это как? И рыбку съесть и .....это.
Так вы другой власти и не заслужили.

Здесь идёт информационная война против вашей родины,а вы извиняетесь,что на русском пишете.Может,вы ещё извинитесь ,что вы русская? Какая досада,не правда ли?
 Ваш дед воевал на Курской дуге,а вы молчите,когда вам говорят,что войну выиграли союзники.
А ведь это только часть информационной войны против России.
Соответственно,вы предаёте память своего деда ,который за вас воевал и за тех,кто сейчас распространяет клевету о России. Так вы ещё не просто молчите ,а пытаетесь им подыгрывать.
Этакой добренькой хотите казаться.И вашим и нашим.

Нельзя быть немножко беременной.

Лариса, извинилась я за то, что пишу на русском на англоязычном форуме, а не за то,что я русская. Это простое правило этикета. На русском я писала в надежде донести до вас то,что до меня не смогли донести участники форума на английском, жаль, что вы так ничего и не поняли.

Никто не говорит о том, что войну выиграли только союзники, и не умаляет вклад России в Победу. В полку моего деда были и украинцы, и таджики, и, по его рассказам, некоторое время даже французы-союзники. Проблема большинства россиян сейчас в том, что мы считаем себя пупом земли, не всегда обоснованно, и везде ищем врагов.

По всему остальному предпочту в дискуссию не вступать, мы с вами говорим на разных языках, видимо, вы из тех людей, кто считает, что единственно верное мнение - его, а кто с ним не согласен - тот предатель. Это мне напоминает юношеский максимализм, который обычно проходит к 25 годам.

Попробуйте все-таки по текущей ситуации не верить слепо тому, что вам говорят по телевизору, а воспользоваться различными источниками информации прежде, чем делать односторонние выводы. Истина всегда где-то посередине.

Больше в дискуссии не вступаю, извините.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 08, 2015, 06:33:04 AM
Ваш дед воевал на Курской дуге,а вы молчите,когда вам говорят,что войну выиграли союзники.

The Allied forces did win WWII, to the extent anyone "wins" in a war.  That is an historical fact.  The USSR was part of the Allied forces.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 08, 2015, 06:37:11 AM
Боль России, которую предвидел великий русский писатель более 100 лет назад(!), оказалась еще более мучительной, чем та, которую он предвещал. Главное предательство русской России состоялось не со стороны балканских славян и даже не со стороны Болгарии, дважды предавшей русских в XX веке. Главное предательство состоялось со стороны самой близкой общерусскому стволу ветви — ветви малороссийской. Все прозрения Достоевского оказались отнесены, именно к Украине, которой наречено было быть навеки с русским народом. Она же, предав всю свою историю, всю свою борьбу за общерусское единство, предав своих ближайших братьев, упала в объятия наших врагов. Теперь уж эти объятья стали тисками, да только признаться в этом на Украине не могут и душат, изничтожают ежедневно в себе русскую душу, стремясь стать американо-европейцами, выторговать себе хоть уголок в "европейском доме" — пусть их далее прихожей в этот дом и не пустят, а расстелят перед входом половичком, чтобы ноги вытирать.

It is not your right, living in another country, to decide how Ukrainians should live.  The fact that you refer to Ukrainians as "малороссы" demonstrates the contempt with which you hold Ukrainians.  Is it any wonder, to you, that Ukrainians would not wish to have their fate aligned with a people who view them, and their language, as inferior?

Have you ever heard of the Ems Ukaz?  Of the Soviet policy of "internationalization", which in Ukraine was implemented as "Russification", or a loss of Ukrainian language?    Here is some information on the last prisoner to die in a Soviet gulag.  His crime?  Promoting Ukrainian rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasyl_Stus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasyl_Stus)

Ukrainians have generally been denied their culture and their language when under Russian rule.  That, partly, is why they want independence, and closer ties to Europe.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on September 08, 2015, 09:10:40 AM
It is not your right, living in another country, to decide how Ukrainians should live.  The fact that you refer to Ukrainians as "малороссы" demonstrates the contempt with which you hold Ukrainians.  Is it any wonder, to you, that Ukrainians would not wish to have their fate aligned with a people who view them, and their language, as inferior?

Have you ever heard of the Ems Ukaz?  Of the Soviet policy of "internationalization", which in Ukraine was implemented as "Russification", or a loss of Ukrainian language?    Here is some information on the last prisoner to die in a Soviet gulag.  His crime?  Promoting Ukrainian rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasyl_Stus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasyl_Stus)

Ukrainians have generally been denied their culture and their language when under Russian rule.  That, partly, is why they want independence, and closer ties to Europe.

Agree 100%.  It is amazing how Russian's do not have the ability to open their eyes or apply logic or reason.  She could also just be a troll here to antagonize everyone.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: SANDRO43 on September 08, 2015, 09:43:52 AM
Russia claims that Ukraine is being run by Jews and Nazis.
A rather contradictory alliance, historically :-\,
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on September 08, 2015, 10:45:58 AM
A rather contradictory alliance, historically :-\,

Contradictions in thinking and stupidity doesn't bother a Russian at all.

I am just amazed that they can look in mirror each day while brushing teeth, shaving, etc. knowing what a nation of liars and a$$holes they are.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 08, 2015, 11:31:42 AM
I don't think it is as black and white as either side presents.

My better half has some Russian roots, and he is probably the most logical thinker I've ever met.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 11:58:43 AM
Yeah- a lot of gray areas. My friend in Kyiv tells
me that political positions are bought in
Ukraine. Reform is needed to break away
from that kind of corruption. It's hard to
fight corruption during a war. The seeds of
democracy need time to grow.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 08, 2015, 12:01:25 PM
They are bought in a sense, in the US as well. 


Think about it.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 08, 2015, 12:25:48 PM
They are bought in a sense, in the US as well. 


Think about it.


Bingo!


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 02:15:16 PM
I think it's a silly statement to say that politics in the USA is as corrupt as in Ukraine. I have voted, as millions of others have, without a corrupting influence. I voted for John Anderson in 1980. I was for Ross Perot. In local elections, it is quite easy to vote a corrupt politician out of office. I think it's absurd and overly cynical to excuse bad behavior by saying, 'it happens everywhere'. Instead say, 'Let's get rid of this corrupt senator' etc. Your average citizen can and does determine who will be elected here. Money is not the strongest influence. Look at Jeb Bush. He's got the money and yet doing much worse than Dr. Ben Carson, so far, in the polls. It's simple-minded to say, "Oh look- there's corruption and propaganda in the New Soviet Union, just like there is propaganda here in the US or EU'. Absurd.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 08, 2015, 02:25:22 PM
I didn't say American politics is as corrupt as in Ukraine.  But you look at the money needed to run in federal elections, how much is needed for the presidency, look at the candidates, look at the influence various players have (Wall Street bankers, for one), look at how many members of Congress don't leave office wealthier than when they entered, then tell me with a straight face the US political system is not corrupt.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 08, 2015, 02:32:08 PM
Larissa,

Kyiv is the birthplace of what is today modern Russia. Ukrainians are not the children--they are the parents. Russia may be larger in size, but Kyiv is your rightful master, if we use the logic you employ.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 02:35:16 PM
No doubt about it, we need to remove the strong influence of money here in US politics. Focusing on that, only undermines reform in Ukraine, in terms of corruption and politics.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 02:37:39 PM
Mendy is right. Kyiv should make statements, encouraging Russia to follow its lead in cultural and political spheres. It's a sound psychology.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 08, 2015, 03:52:41 PM
No doubt about it, we need to remove the strong influence of money here in US politics. Focusing on that, only undermines reform in Ukraine, in terms of corruption and politics.


Huh?  From what I'm reading Photoguy you are saying we need to stop concerning ourselves with our own corruption, and focus on the corruption in Ukraine instead?   I'd say that our 1st and most important responsibility is to take care of our own corruption.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 04:26:25 PM
Yes we should reform our political system to make corruption more difficult.
Yes, we should uphold our responsibility for protecting the sovereignty of Ukraine in the context of the Budapest Memorandum and in the context of a fledgling democracy under threat from a controlling neo-Soviet regime. Those two goals are not mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 04:47:26 PM
We should confront evil everywhere, whether it's internal or external. NAZI's should have been confronted in the Sudetenland.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 08, 2015, 05:07:57 PM
We should confront evil everywhere, whether it's internal or external. NAZI's should have been confronted in the Sudetenland.


Idealistic....I guess you feel we should be policing the world then and we are to be trusted to do so fairly....  Don't want my kids doing this, we have enough issues to contend with here at home..


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 08, 2015, 06:04:16 PM
Police? No. Are you familiar with the Budapest Memorandum?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 08, 2015, 06:32:05 PM

We should confront evil everywhere, whether it's internal or external. NAZI's should have been confronted in the Sudetenland.





Police? No. Are you familiar with the Budapest Memorandum?


Without having an enforcer (Police) I don't see how you are going to eradicate what you think is evil.   It is rare  to have a situation as obvious as Nazi Germany.  Nations will have very little altruism, mostly going to look out for their interests above everything else. 


Budapest Memorandum had lots of signatories.  Although some here have questioned if the obligations were fulfilled, others stated by the letter of the agreement, they have been. 


Fathertime!   




Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on September 08, 2015, 06:32:57 PM
What about the Quiller Memorandum?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 08, 2015, 11:33:02 PM
He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.( Alexander Nevski)

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
(New International Version),Matthew.   :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: sleepycat on September 09, 2015, 12:04:22 AM
He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.


Are you talking about that dwarf Putin?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 09, 2015, 12:43:45 AM
Quote
Budapest Memorandum had lots of signatories.  Although some here have questioned if the obligations were fulfilled, others stated by the letter of the agreement, they have been.

Only a complete fracking moronic idiot could even begin to think that it has been fulfilled. The agreement called for Ukraine giving up nuke stockpiles in exchanges for guarantee of sovereign borders. Ukraine gave up the nukes.

Are her borders guaranteed by those who signed?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 09, 2015, 02:36:24 AM
There were only three who signed the agreement, guaranteeing territorial integrity.  Russia, Great Britain and the US.  One of the three admits sending soldiers into a portion of Ukraine and carving off a part of it (Krim) while the other two have clearly not lived up to their promises. 

The fourth, Ukraine, was a signatory who fulfilled their obligation, which was giving up the nukes.  Then, made the mistake of picking up a bar of soap in the shower.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 09, 2015, 12:13:51 PM
Exactly, which is why I personally would not protest if Ukraine were to have her nuclear program restarted.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on September 09, 2015, 07:44:24 PM
There were only three who signed the agreement, guaranteeing territorial integrity.  Russia, Great Britain and the US.  One of the three admits sending soldiers into a portion of Ukraine and carving off a part of it (Krim) while the other two have clearly not lived up to their promises. 

The fourth, Ukraine, was a signatory who fulfilled their obligation, which was giving up the nukes.  Then, made the mistake of picking up a bar of soap in the shower.


 France and China also signed a some what weaker version of assurances to Ukraine, Belarus and K-stan.  Belarus may be in for the same treatment as Ukraine has in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: jone on September 09, 2015, 07:51:26 PM
Agreed Mike. 

But the original agreement had the four parties signing it.  Russia's belligerence and the US and GB's weak response is the new norm.   If the US had any backbone, they would have responded and honored their commitment.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: southernX on September 09, 2015, 08:41:41 PM
Exactly, which is why I personally would not protest if Ukraine were to have her nuclear program restarted.
agree mendy

personaly i think in the future a nuclear detterent may be the best  option for ukraine and others including us in australia

given the increase in aggression around the world this may not be as dangerous as it at first sounds

SX
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 09, 2015, 09:02:07 PM
agree mendy

personaly i think in the future a nuclear detterent may be the best  option for ukraine and others including us in australia

given the increase in aggression around the world this may not be as dangerous as it at first sounds

SX
Unfortunately I am starting to agree...look at all the countries the US has recently attacked, and is attacking,using drones on, or supplying air power and support to rebels....if these countries had nukes they wouldn't be touched.  A big problem would be how to keep the weapons secure,and out of the hands of those that would use them for terror.


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 09, 2015, 11:52:27 PM
From a nuke safety perspective, Ukraine is safer than even Russia. Ukraine lacks the large populations of restless (and sometimes for good reason) Islamic regions, and Nazi-nationalist groups. Both those are in far greater numbers in Russia.

On an organized crime and corruption threat, Ukraine is slowly gaining distance from Russia on this as well. In Ukraine you still have both, but there is now a growing will of the people to stop corruption, whereas in Russia it is not only ingrained, but it is official economic doctrine.

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 10, 2015, 01:01:06 AM
Every dog is valiant at his own door.

Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 10, 2015, 08:14:36 AM
В чужо́м глазу́ сори́нку заме́тно, а в своём -- бревна́ не вида́ть
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 10, 2015, 08:21:15 AM
Лучше молчать и думать дураком, чем говорить и удалить все сомнения :D

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on September 10, 2015, 08:37:52 AM
Лучше молчать и думать дураком, чем говорить и удалить все сомнения :D

 Very fitting.. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: cc3 on September 10, 2015, 09:30:13 AM
Every dog is valiant at his own door.

Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.

Which is why Ukraine is putting up such a valiant fight against Putin's invading muscovite eur-asiatic hordes. If Putin does not leave Ukraine soon many, many more Cargo 200 trucks will be stealthily transporting deceased Russian corpses back to the motherland for secret disposal by the dictatorship.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 10, 2015, 09:50:12 AM
I am stealing this from my friend Pete over at Moscow FM, Moscow's only English language radio station:

How to be Russian today:
1. Wear European and American clothes.
2. Wear American and European jewelry.
3. Drive American and European cars.
4. Use American smartphones and computers.
5. Watch American and European films and television shows.
6. Travel to Europe and America.
7. Eat European and American food.
8. Buy property in Europe or America.
9. Post on social networks how much you hate America and Europe.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: John of Hesperia on September 10, 2015, 10:18:54 AM
I am stealing this from my friend Pete over at Moscow RM, Moscow's only English language radio station:

How to be Russian today:
1. Wear European and American clothes.
2. Wear American and European jewelry.
3. Drive American and European cars.
4. Use American smartphones and computers.
5. Watch American and European films and television shows.
6. Travel to Europe and America.
7. Eat European and American food.
8. Buy property in Europe or America.
9. Post on social networks how much you hate America and Europe.
Sounds like typical Progressive/Liberal Americans, but especially #9.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Larissa2 on September 11, 2015, 12:30:44 AM
 Why the Russia will not climbs to the US? Why is the US all time climbs in Russia?So strange.Very interesting.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 11, 2015, 12:38:40 AM
Sounds like typical Progressive/Liberal Americans, but especially #9.

Why do I get the feeling John is one of those guys sitting on his porch, yelling at kids to get off his darn lawn?

The interesting and/or innovative clothing, jewelry, computers, films, and television shows are created almost exclusively by "progressives".
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 11, 2015, 12:41:02 AM
Why the Russia will not climbs to the US? Why is the US all time climbs in Russia?So strange.Very interesting.


How is the US "climbing" to Russia?  I'm trying to think how you translated this to understand what you are trying to say.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 11, 2015, 01:03:54 AM
Quote
Why the Russia will not climbs to the US? Why is the US all time climbs in Russia?So strange.Very interesting.

I think you need to open your eyes, Larisa. First, it was Vladimir Putin who invited the USA to have a NATO base inside Russia for the USA to use for Afghanistan. I didn't see many Russians complaining about the money for rent the USA paid to the Kremlin. Back then, Putin was willing to rent Russia to NATO for money. Now, he claims that NATO is too close. Strange, very strange.

Are you aware of Russia in American's backyard, her near abroad? Central and South America have always been considered close to, but not ruled by, the USA. Now you have Russia in BRICS which starts with B, for Brazil. You also have Russian military participating in drills with Argentina and Venezuela, and Russia is building a nuclear submarine base in Venezuela, backyard of the USA.

I find it strange, very strange, that you do not know about this!

 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 11, 2015, 07:13:02 AM


Are you aware of Russia in American's backyard, her near abroad? Central and South America have always been considered close to, but not ruled by, the USA. Now you have Russia in BRICS which starts with B, for Brazil. You also have Russian military participating in drills with Argentina and Venezuela, and Russia is building a nuclear submarine base in Venezuela, backyard of the USA.


At this point, I don't think many of the South American countries consider themselves the backyard of the USA.  There is a lot of fouled sentiment in many of the regions due to some of the exploitative things we have done in the past.  That being said, clearly the US does exercise some indirect control over the regions, and Russia being present at all, is probably seen as a thorn in our side. 


Fathertime! 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 11, 2015, 02:45:08 PM
One of our rare points of agreement.....  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 11, 2015, 03:45:30 PM
I didn't say American politics is as corrupt as in Ukraine.  But you look at the money needed to run in federal elections, how much is needed for the presidency, look at the candidates, look at the influence various players have (Wall Street bankers, for one), look at how many members of Congress don't leave office wealthier than when they entered, then tell me with a straight face the US political system is not corrupt.


Heh, there are TWO people who are planning on spending about $900,000,000 to get a GOP president elected. Now, what is the difference from Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 11, 2015, 03:54:40 PM
Sounds like typical Progressive/Liberal Americans, but especially #9.


My, my, my. You sound just like Larissa. Nothing like a little dissent to scream I hate America. Right?


And here are all these open-minded Americans LECTURING Larissa about how to be tolerant and allow the dissenters to express their POV.


Yeah, right.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Muzh on September 11, 2015, 03:55:58 PM

How is the US "climbing" to Russia?  I'm trying to think how you translated this to understand what you are trying to say.


Maybe she meant "mounting?" That would make sense.  ;D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 11, 2015, 04:00:11 PM
Larissa,

1945 part of Czechoslovakia was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Poland was taken by the Soviet Union
1944 part of Finland was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Japan was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Germany was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Latvia was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Lithuania was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Estonia was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Moldova  was taken by the Soviet Union
1920 Mongolia was taken  by the Soviet Union
2008 part of Georgia was taken by Russia
2014 part of Ukraine was taken by Russia

Can you point to me the area around Russia and show me a single square centimeter taken by that horrible all-conquering enemy of yours “America”???  No, you can’t, and of course almost every single one of the countries listed above is now a member of a military alliance with the United States.  Who do you think THESE countries are afraid of, and why do you think they joined such an alliance? 

Is Russia upset because it fears America will try to “conquer its territory”, or is Russia upset because these alliances interfere with Russia’s future territorial expansion ambitions? 

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 11, 2015, 04:46:11 PM
Every dog is valiant at his own door.


Tell her this, as she stands at her father's grave.  Her sin?  To be born in Ukraine, next door to Putinmania.


(http://euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/CNMKVC8VEAAjdpw2.jpg)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BdHvA on September 11, 2015, 05:27:04 PM
Are you aware of Russia in American's backyard, her near abroad?

The actual border between Russia and America is about 2 and half miles. The Russian is militarized, The American side is home to fisherman and there families.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 11, 2015, 06:58:36 PM
Russia does not own Ukraine, no matter how paranoid Russia is about Ukraine becoming a threatening 'NATOland'. Moscow's ideas and goals are killing thousands.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 11, 2015, 07:06:29 PM
Every dog is valiant at his own door.

Don't trouble trouble until trouble troubles you.

Actually, I thank God that France helped us win our Revolutionary War against Britain. Now, a weak Ukraine should be helped with their revolution.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on September 11, 2015, 07:19:02 PM
From a nuke safety perspective, Ukraine is safer than even Russia. Ukraine lacks the large populations of restless (and sometimes for good reason) Islamic regions, and Nazi-nationalist groups. Both those are in far greater numbers in Russia.

On an organized crime and corruption threat, Ukraine is slowly gaining distance from Russia on this as well. In Ukraine you still have both, but there is now a growing will of the people to stop corruption, whereas in Russia it is not only ingrained, but it is official economic doctrine.

Besides the physical war, I agree that there are huge differences in political and cultural goals. Russia seems to be oblivious about their own problem with corruption, while Ukraine has an anti-corruption department. Ukraine appears to be championing a more democratic system, while Russia stifles democracy. These are two huge differences. I think Putin should be continually confronted with these ideological differences.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on September 11, 2015, 08:19:44 PM
. . .   If the US had any backbone, they would have responded and honored their commitment.

It has been shown several times here already that USA has no obligation under the terms of the Budapest Memorandum to help Ukraine in the current situation.

USA only agreed to not cause Ukraine trouble and to seek UN action if Ukraine were attacked by nuclear weapons.

I heartily agree and wish that the USA would help Ukraine more . . . but it is fruitless to keep falsely stating that the Budapest Memorandum requires us to do so in the current situation.

Yes, clearly Russia is violating their part of the agreement, but that is not surprising given the general character of Russian people.

Attached is the Budapest Memorandum.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: John of Hesperia on September 11, 2015, 11:08:11 PM
1945 part of Czechoslovakia was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Poland was taken by the Soviet Union
1944 part of Finland was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Japan was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Germany was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Latvia was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Lithuania was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Estonia was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Moldova  was taken by the Soviet Union
1920 Mongolia was taken  by the Soviet Union
2008 part of Georgia was taken by Russia
2014 part of Ukraine was taken by Russia

Can you point to me the area around Russia and show me a single square centimeter taken by that horrible all-conquering enemy of yours “America”???  No, you can’t, and of course almost every single one of the countries listed above is now a member of a military alliance with the United States.  Who do you think THESE countries are afraid of, and why do you think they joined such an alliance? 

Is Russia upset because it fears America will try to “conquer its territory”, or is Russia upset because these alliances interfere with Russia’s future territorial expansion ambitions?

You have absolutely right sir.  It is my fervent hope that the USA will begin, after Our Big A$$ Mistake America, is at last rectified, and this country will again become the leader of the free world, which includes most of the once-occupied countries you list. 
None can expect to survive without some serious assistance, both mutual and foreign.  That means America.  Weakened as we are by edict from our current "leader" we still have a few lights burning on in the "shining city on a hill."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: fathertime on September 12, 2015, 07:19:52 AM
Larissa,

1945 part of Czechoslovakia was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Poland was taken by the Soviet Union
1944 part of Finland was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Japan was taken by the Soviet Union
1945 part of Germany was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Latvia was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Lithuania was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Estonia was taken by the Soviet Union
1940 Moldova  was taken by the Soviet Union
1920 Mongolia was taken  by the Soviet Union
2008 part of Georgia was taken by Russia
2014 part of Ukraine was taken by Russia

Can you point to me the area around Russia and show me a single square centimeter taken by that horrible all-conquering enemy of yours “America”???  No, you can’t, and of course almost every single one of the countries listed above is now a member of a military alliance with the United States.  Who do you think THESE countries are afraid of, and why do you think they joined such an alliance? 

Is Russia upset because it fears America will try to “conquer its territory”, or is Russia upset because these alliances interfere with Russia’s future territorial expansion ambitions?


Hi Krimster,


My impression was that the Soviets helped liberate the Mongolians from the 'white armies' which included aid from the USA among others. 


Fathertime!   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on September 12, 2015, 07:58:55 AM
Fathertime,
  By "helped liberate" you mean "incorportated into their territory"?  Then yes....
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 12, 2015, 12:08:16 PM
Why the Russia will not climbs to the US? Why is the US all time climbs in Russia?So strange.Very interesting.

I think you meant interfering or meddling, not climbing.
Title: The Propaganda War
Post by: 2tallbill on September 13, 2015, 10:24:23 AM
I think you meant interfering or meddling, not climbing.

Also none of the interfering or meddling was actually done in Russia, it was allegedly
done in only in countries that Russia wants to control or in Russia's sphere of influence.

Mean while Russia is not even remotely guiltless in doing exactly the same things.


From The Business insider
Linette Lopez


This week, Russia Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov is visiting Cuba, Nicaragua, Colombia, and Guatemala. According to reports, rumors are flying that Russia plans to sell fighter jets to Nicaragua's Sandinista government after helping them set up a topographic center. In Cuba, Lavrov and his counterpart reportedly discussed US aggression against regional ally Venezuela.

Nicolas Maduro of Venezuela and Putin
(http://www.themoscowtimes.com/upload/iblock/4a9/Maduro-Putin.jpeg)

"Last year and again this year, a Russian intelligence ship docked in Havana multiple times while conducting operations in the Gulf of Mexico and along the east coast of the United States," Tovo told members of the Senate Armed Services committee.

"Russia has courted Cuba, Venezuela, and Nicaragua to gain access to air bases and ports for resupply of Russian naval assets and strategic bombers operating in the Western Hemisphere. Russian media also announced Russia would begin sending long-range strategic bombers to patrol the Caribbean Sea and Gulf of Mexico, in an effort to 'monitor foreign powers’ military activities and maritime communications.'"

read the entire story here
http://www.businessinsider.com/its-time-to-start-worrying-about-what-russias-been-up-to-in-latin-america-2015-3
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 13, 2015, 12:56:27 PM
Quote
Mean while Russia is not even remotely guiltless in doing exactly the same things.


It was even more so in the Soviet period.
Title: China all set to buy Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on September 13, 2015, 10:02:18 PM
yur sons are off marchin to war keepin step with an off-tune band
the streets are all empty except for an old rusted paper stand
the headlines in bold are clear to read “china all set to buy Ukraine”
“will soon be exportin half her grain"
so hey rooskie load the shell into the pooshka
and let er rip at some poor babooshka
they ain’t got nothin to eat anyway
at least that’s what most of ‘em say

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/china/10332007/China-to-rent-five-per-cent-of-Ukraine.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Darth_Budda on September 14, 2015, 03:43:30 AM

Hi Krimster,


My impression was that the Soviets helped liberate the Mongolians from the 'white armies' which included aid from the USA among others. 


Fathertime!


The russian Revolution is a interesting event from a historical perspective...

many areas of the former Russian Empire had " Red " sections of the population. that fought for their country to be included in the SU..

Such as Ukraine and Finland...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiev_Bolshevik_Uprising

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_Civil_War

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_Revolution_of_1921
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 14, 2015, 07:45:34 AM
The Bolsheviks never had popular support in Ukraine.  That is why the civil war there was exceptionally brutal and lasted to about 1922.

The Red Army fighting in Ukraine was comprised primarily of Red Guards from Russia.  When invading, the Bolsheviks were fairly well coordinated, and had Bolshevik agitators stage protests in the cities.  Keep in mind, the cities were generally made up of non Ukrainian populations, and that in no city did the Bolsheviks have popular support. 

There were numerous Ukrainian partisan movements fighting the Red Army.  However, they were all independent, and that lack of cohesion is probably why the Red Army was able to take Ukraine.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on September 14, 2015, 08:04:24 AM
This is for Larissa, who doesn't believe Russians were behind the civil war in Ukraine.  Notice how all these "Russian nationalists" have love for trappings of the West (as emphasized below) -

Quote
There was a time when the arrival of Alexander Borodai and his posse of camouflaged gunmen could clear out a restaurant in just minutes.
But that was in Donetsk, Ukraine, in 2014, where Borodai was prime minister of a ­pro-Russian separatist government. Now, he is back in his native Moscow and, as he tells it, back to his old day job as a public relations consultant.

"When you are not on television, people start to forget what you look like,” he said, sinking into a cream-colored sofa in a tony Moscow restaurant for an interview. “And thank God for that. It was hard to go out on the street at first.” . . .

Borodai is not the only one of Russia’s self-proclaimed volunteer fighters to reappear here. As the conflict in east Ukraine has reached a stalemate, hundreds of volunteers have returned to Russia, and the early rebel leaders, many of them native Russians, have resumed comfortable, increasingly public lives in Moscow.


Wrapped in a tight Armani Exchange T-shirt and sporting a week’s stubble, Borodai said that he has not been in Donetsk since October and that his focus now is on reviving his consulting company. Business is bad. Several international companies, which he declined to name, severed their contracts when he was subjected to sanctions imposed by the United States and the European Union.  .  .

In the meantime, the gang’s all here. You could have bumped into Marat Bashirov, the former prime minister of the separatist Luhansk People’s Republic, at the Moscow Economic Forum in March, where he gave a lecture titled “Risks, sanctions, lobbying.” Bashirov, a Moscow government relations consultant once employed by the oligarch Viktor Vekselberg’s holding company, was subjected to sanctions by the European Union in July 2014 along with Borodai.

A snappy dresser, he remarked on a government airstrike on his headquarters in July last year in a dry post on Facebook: “It seems my Tom Ford suit has been killed. Now I will hold government sessions in camouflage.” .  .  .

There is also Igor Girkin, the battle commander who once bragged that if not for his attacks on police stations in April last year, there would be no war in Ukraine. He now appears at lectures with far-right nationalists and has gone spectacularly off message, accusing Russia of abandoning the separatist republics in Ukraine that it helped to create. .

Sergei Kavtaradze, an aide to Borodai in Donetsk who was once labeled “the hipster with a machine gun,” returned to Russia last year and is now finishing a film adaptation of his doctoral dissertation.Titled “MilkForMadness,” it investigates “the archetypes of war,” Kavtaradze said, and the effects of war on its participants.
“It makes people go crazy,” he said. . .

“Hopefully, it may be in some Western festivals next year,” Kavtaradze said of the film.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/former-russian-rebels-trade-war-in-ukraine-for-posh-life-in-moscow/2015/09/13/6b71f862-3b8c-11e5-b34f-4e0a1e3a3bf9_story.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/former-russian-rebels-trade-war-in-ukraine-for-posh-life-in-moscow/2015/09/13/6b71f862-3b8c-11e5-b34f-4e0a1e3a3bf9_story.html)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on September 14, 2015, 10:58:58 AM
Shocking. Well, not at all. Except for the blindness of many Russians whose primary news source is Russian television.

Actually, I thought that all those guys were just there on vacation, having driven the family tank across the border to visit relatives, with their teenagers BUK systems in tow for some target practice on migrating Malaysian ducks.

Several of these goons were also involved in the annexation of Crimea, and Abhkazia/SO/Georgia, and Moldova,  and before that Armenia. A thinking person would almost believe that somehow all these "projects" were connected to the Kremlin.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on September 14, 2015, 05:00:09 PM
A thinking person would almost believe that somehow all these "projects" were connected to the Kremlin.

Nah say it isn't so Mendy! Would the Kremlin flat out lie??  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on October 09, 2015, 12:50:55 PM
Now available on Netflix
Summary of the Maidan Revolution:

http://www.netflix.com/title/80031666

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4908644/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 12, 2015, 11:04:39 PM
Thought this was the most appropriate place for this link-- amazingly-- just like some other "news" ( like giving results of elections a week prior to poll date!!)-- hours prior to official release by the Dutch investigators-- Pravda can tell us the  findings !!!
Once again--- this is an attempt to bury the real findings in a sea of google results designed to hide and confuse the real finding links.
This report below--released at least 8 hours( maybe 12?)prior to release of the official Dutch report!!


MH 17 Report: Predictably, no evidence against Russia

Predictably the upcoming long-awaited (from July 2014 to October 2015) report on MH-17 does not present one shred of evidence incriminating the Russian Federation or President Putin. So maybe those media outlets accusing Russia and her President of the downing of the MH-17 would like to stand up and apologize?

To apologize, you need fiber, morals, substance, backbone and character. To sling accusations all you need is to be a foul-mouthed guttersnipe, all you need is looseness of morals, an absence of character and a general nastiness. To refuse to apologize after slinging the mud shows pure spinelessness, spitefulness and worthlessness.

I could end the article here because after this, what else is there to say? To those who blamed Russia, to those who aired parents of children, in mourning, asking for "President Putin" to give back their children, there is much to say. For a start, the stance in this column has been from the beginning respect for the families and loved ones of those who lost their lives in first place. In second place, respect for the families and loved ones of the victims. In third place, respect for the families and loved ones of the victims.


And now for the rest. My position has been from day 1 wait for the report (quite how it took one year and two and a half months to generate defies logic) and see if the report incriminates Russia, and then let the accusations fly. The fact of the matter is, as I predicted, that the report in no way incriminates Russia or its leadership but the accusations already started a long time ago.

So suppose we now demand an explanation from those who were grandstaging, using the horrific tragedy, using the victims and their grief, to paint (another) scary picture about Russia? The slanderous and libelous accusations should not go unanswered.
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/13-10-2015/132305-mh_no_evidence-0/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on October 29, 2015, 02:32:42 AM
It is a crime to own and or distribute anti-Russian books or other media materials. Recently the director of Moscow's Library of Ukrainian literature was detained and the library raided. What are "anti Russian" materials? Anything that the government doesn't want you to have.

Director of the Ukrainian Literature Library in Moscow, has been detained (http://tass.ru/proisshestviya/2387298) for 48 hours and may be remanded in custody after Russia reinstated criminal proceedings against her and the library for ‘inciting hatred’ through supposedly ‘anti-Russian material’ held in the library.

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1446067278 (http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1446067278)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Photo Guy on October 29, 2015, 08:27:30 AM
Does this mean that the ownership and distribution of the Dutch MH-17 report is illegal in Russia?   
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on October 29, 2015, 10:59:23 AM
At this point--absolutely.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on November 02, 2015, 10:43:23 AM
Odd at how those who oppose the Kremlin keeping finding themselves in legal troubles, and the target of intense propaganda. More Russians get their news from television than any other source, and inside Russia the number one news channel is the Kremlin controlled "First Channel" news network.

As to propaganda, it they wish to target someone, the quickest smear is to link the person with Jews, and America. So, perhaps it is no shock that the First Channel evidently thinks that their viewers will be swayed by this video. Supposedly, it is opposition leader Alexi Navalny (who remains under house arrest) at the US Embassy in New York dancing with Jews.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNL7KBcz-r8


Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on March 19, 2016, 03:02:33 PM
Interesting article that  summarises the progression of the world waking up to how effective the Russian troll factories were were in propagating Russian nonsense around the world.
Disinformation has proved an effective hybrid war tool for Russia but element of surprise is now lost as international audiences grow familiar with Kremlin infowar tactics
This is worth an update-- particularly in the context of what many have posted here and on forums in the past.


World finally wakes up to Russian infowar and begins to counter Kremlin fakes

Global audiences were totally unprepared for the information war unleashed by the Kremlin in early 2014. This resulted in a series of spectacular early successes for Russia, with an unexpectedly large number of international media outlets seemingly prepared to take Kremlin tales of fascist Ukraine’, ‘oppressed Russian-speaking Ukrainians’, and a ‘CIA-backed coup’ at face value.

http://bunews.com.ua/society/item/2015-review-world-finally-wakes-up-to-russian-infowar-and-begins-to-counter-kremlin-fakes
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on April 19, 2016, 10:03:08 AM
FT, I just caught your comment that the Reds "liberated" Mongolia from the White Army. It depends on the definition of liberation apparently. Mongolia is a somewhat desolate land of very beautiful people, a place that I have enjoyed visiting several times. Mongolians have traditionally had to fight off neighbors who wanted to control them. To them, the "Whites" were as the Nazis were to the Finns, someone new who perhaps offered a chance to throw off a past conqueror.

The White Army helped Mongolians take back a portion of Mongolia that had been annexed by China in 1911. In 1918 the Mongolians turned back to China for assistance in fighting both the Whites and the Reds. In 1921, the Soviet Red Army defeated the White Army along with the local Chinese forces and the Mongolians, and helped establish the Communist government in Mongolia.

This was particularly important to the Reds because a sizeable portion of Siberia, historically a part of China, had wanted to rejoin Mongolia and China to be part of a semi-autonomous a pan-Mongol state under Chinese protection. The Japanese had their own designs on Mongolia at the time.

The Reds, having given up large amounts of territory to be released from the world war, worked to reclaim as much territory and influence as possible. It has always interested me that the vast majority of ethnic Russians bought into the lie that the Soviet Union wanted to forge a peaceful and friendly brotherhood of nations, which required invasions and killing of those who didn't want to be a part of their brotherhood.

Mongolia is a fine example of the Communists real intent. The puppet government, the Mongolian People's Republic, wasted no time in enslaving private landowners, destroying Mongolian temples, executing Mongolian monks, etc, all in the name of peaceful and friendly relations, of course. To the Mongolian people, that never quite fit the definition of "liberation."
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mendeleyev on April 19, 2016, 10:11:20 AM
The head of Russia's Investigative Committee, Aleksandr Bastrykin, has floated the idea of further policing and restricting the Internet. I used the term "floated" because this is a test, a trial balloon, to gauge public reaction. Moscow believes that social media is an invisible foreign army that seeks to manipulate and control societies not in step with the West, and thus the crackdown on Russian blogs and opposition websites can be understood in this context.

In an article in the Moscow Times (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/russias-top-investigator-wants-internet-censorship-to-fight-us-info-war/566473.html):

Quote
However, the most devastating aspect of this war has been the information war waged by the U.S., the head of the Investigative Committee said. This, according to Bastrykin, has resulted in the growth of extremism in Russia.  Bastrykin said it would be useful for Russia to follow the example of China when it comes to Internet censorship, where there is a ban on the work of electronic media that are fully or partially owned by foreign residents.

We should point out that Russia already has placed restrictions on foreign ownership of Russian media.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: AkMike on April 19, 2016, 11:22:17 AM
Today the Moscow Times reports that The Russian Duma has accepted the first reading of a bill that would reclassify large news aggregators as media outlets. Yet more Russian Media censorship..
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Anotherkiwi on April 19, 2016, 05:23:19 PM
Today the Moscow Times reports that The Russian Duma has accepted the first reading of a bill that would reclassify large news aggregators as media outlets. Yet more Russian Media censorship..

R.I.P Yandex, amongst others?  Oh, no, of course not...Yandex doesn't report actual "news."  :cluebat:
Title: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on June 02, 2016, 06:36:59 PM

The Kremlin propaganda against Ukraine is reprehensible and non-stop. But it is often so outlandish that it’s easy to ignore and hard for many outside of Russia, and some within Russia, to believe.

But there’s no excuse for Western pundits to be so ignorant about Russia’s war against Ukraine. Some follow the Kremlin line so closely that it makes one suspect they are on dictator Vladimir Putin’s payroll.

Westerners in service of Kremlin propaganda

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/opinion/op-ed/westerners-in-service-of-kremlin-propaganda-415327.html
Title: Russia’s spreading fake news "beyond propaganda"
Post by: JayH on December 04, 2016, 05:39:56 AM
U.S. intelligence officials believe Russia helped disseminate fake and propagandized news as part of a broader effort to influence and undermine the presidential election, two U.S. intelligence sources told BuzzFeed News.
While the election relationship has focussed attention on this issue it has far wider implications.


U.S. Intel: Russia’s spreading fake news "beyond propaganda"


This is beyond propaganda, that’s my understanding," the second U.S. intelligence official said. The official said they believed those efforts likely included the dissemination of completely fake news stories.
The role of fake news — stories that are completely made up — and propaganda, like state-sponsored media outlets such as Russia Today or Sputnik, has proven more difficult to pin down. The Washington Post said in a story published last week that independent researchers had found that a "sophisticated Russian propaganda campaign" was behind the flood of fake news published in the lead-up to the election. But the researchers’ methods have been widely disputed.



Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/world/1659717-us-intel-russias-spreading-fake-news-beyond-propaganda.html
Title: Re: Russia’s spreading fake news "beyond propaganda"
Post by: jone on December 04, 2016, 09:36:13 AM
U.S. intelligence officials believe Russia helped disseminate fake and propagandized news as part of a broader effort to influence and undermine the presidential election, two U.S. intelligence sources told BuzzFeed News.
While the election relationship has focussed attention on this issue it has far wider implications.


U.S. Intel: Russia’s spreading fake news "beyond propaganda"


This is beyond propaganda, that’s my understanding," the second U.S. intelligence official said. The official said they believed those efforts likely included the dissemination of completely fake news stories.
The role of fake news — stories that are completely made up — and propaganda, like state-sponsored media outlets such as Russia Today or Sputnik, has proven more difficult to pin down. The Washington Post said in a story published last week that independent researchers had found that a "sophisticated Russian propaganda campaign" was behind the flood of fake news published in the lead-up to the election. But the researchers’ methods have been widely disputed.



Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/world/1659717-us-intel-russias-spreading-fake-news-beyond-propaganda.html

You mean that story about the four year old little girl who was purposely killed in Slovyansk wasn't true?  OMG!  Who am I to believe any more?

Nice to think that US Intelligence is finally getting with the program.  But, then again, I don't believe much of what comes from the Ukrainian rags, either.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on December 18, 2016, 07:36:23 PM
The Czech government says Russian disinformation is a significant problem in the country. In September the Czech counterintelligence agency said that Russia was waging an "information war" in the country, using disinformation to try and turn Czechs away from the EU and NATO and into Russia's orbit.

Meet the Czechs fighting back against Russia's (dis)information war

"The problem with these disinformation websites is that their content is being laundered or multiplied," he says, noting Czech politicians and staffers regularly share stories from disinformation outlets on social media.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/meet-the-czechs-fighting-back-against-russias-disinformation-war-20161215-gtcbh5.html
Title: Top 10 fakes of Russian propaganda in 2016
Post by: JayH on February 03, 2017, 11:54:22 PM
Never to be forgotten is how extensively Russia promotes it's lies.
It is worth reading to see the extent  -- and perhaps the purpose intended in the promotion of the lies.Not to be forgotten is the huge number of paid trolls being used to promote whatever the kremlins agenda is at that time.
it is of special importance when major decisions are imminent,

Top 10 fakes of Russian propaganda in 2016

In this review we collected the top 10 bogus stories of the Russian propaganda which appeared in 2016. The full list is, of course, not limited to ten. We could have easily done top 100 and more, but it is beyond the scope of this digest.
1) Ukies burying a militiaman alive

2) Rammstein “supporting Putin”

3) The propagandists of Russia-1 TV channel presented a girl in the courtroom, where the interrogation of Viktor Yanukovych took place, as the Deputy Interior Minister Anastasia Deeva.


4) Russian aircraft carrier group presented with the photographs of the US Navy.

5) FSB in Crimea presented airsoft weapons as combat assault rifles for the sake of trumped-up charges.


6) Three refugees in Germany raped 13-year-old Russian-speaking girl throughout the day.

7) Kiselev showing a fake ID of SS-Volunteer Division “Galicia”.

.
8) The story about “poor European Union” and the need for cooperation with Russia on the basis of manipulated interviews of French people.

Franch Canal+ spared neither time nor effort to scrutinize the whole story of Russia 24 channel about the Eurosceptics in France and found everyone who was interviewed by the Russian propagandists. It turned out that they had not just mistranslated the words of the French, but consciously attributed to these people things they did not say at all.

9) Roman Sushchenko, the journalist of Ukrinform a “spy and saboteur.”   

10) Russian observers not to be allowed at the US elections

http://informnapalm.org/en/top-10-fakes-russian-propaganda-2016/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on February 04, 2017, 09:27:13 AM
JayH,

you forgot to include your contenders

.eg the 'Storm' that damaged the Kerch Straits Road Bridge.. :)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 05, 2017, 01:40:44 AM
When Russia wants to, it can create high-quality fakes and sophisticated deceptions with brilliant intricacy. But when something goes wrong in Russia’s wars abroad, there’s no time. Quick and dirty conspiracy theories and disinformation slow down analysis and distract people in the early stages of a news story. Russia used this technique in the bombing of a UN aid convoy in Syria in September 2016, and when it shot down MH17 above Ukraine in 2014.

A  G U I D E

T O  R U S S I A N

P R O P A G A N D A


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5HGfgVE8Qo


http://euromaidanpress.com/guide-russian-propaganda/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 05, 2017, 01:31:14 PM
Coda asked westerners why they trust news from a network whose head has a direct phone line to the Kremlin.
Could it possible be that DJT is a regular?



Why Has a Kremlin-Controlled News Network Become a Hit in the West?


TREND 1: RT is honest about lying

TREND 2: Iraq and Occupy Wall Street drove me to RT

TREND 3: Putin isn’t as bad as they want us to believe

TREND 4: We’re on the cusp of WWIII
One of the most startling themes that emerged from conversations with numerous RT fans, from reading over a hundred public social media accounts of RT followers and from posts from RT viewers in various Facebook groups was fear over the imminent breakout of WWIII. Nickoli from Phoenix believes that “we’re on the cusp of a World War III.” Paul from El Paso shared a link to a YouTube video called “A Vote For Hillary is a Vote For World War 3.” Another RT follower, Aaron Klein from Marietta, Georgia, expressed the same pre-election urgency to Coda in a message. “Everyone around the world is stancing up for ww3 and were sitting here with non stop coverage of a political race that is absolutely ridiculous,” Klein wrote close to the November election.

These concerns seem to have subsided with the election of Donald Trump as president. As one RT fan wrote about RT’s editorial, With Trump’s win we might’ve dodged nuclear bullet: “This election wasn’t only about the U.S., it was about preventing WW3.”


http://codastory.com/disinformation-crisis/information-war/honest-about-lying
Title: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 06, 2017, 07:18:02 PM
It is as important as ever to understand the extent of Russian lies,fake stories and propaganda  -- and it's sources.




‘Ukrainian regional news site’ linked with Putin Chef’s Internet troll factory


The ‘troll factory’ is very widely believed to be financed by Yevgeny Prigozhin who almost certainly owes his millions, at least in part, to the favour which Putin has shown him and his restaurant change.  Prigozhin was recently sanctioned over another of his activities – the financing of a ‘private army’, sending mercenaries to fight in Donbas and in Syria.  Putin was recently spotted honouring Dmitry Utkin (‘Wagner’), the head of these mercenaries at a Kremlin reception to mark ‘Heroes of the Fatherland Day’.

The St. Petersburg ‘Ukrainian website’ was used at the end of January by a number of Russian websites to circulate a totally mendacious story about plans by a Kharkiv publisher to publish some of the memoires of Joseph Goebbels.  The publisher’s words were deliberately cut, so that the audience heard only that Goebbels “was much needed in Ukrainian society”, and not why.  In fact, the publisher Oleksandr Krasovytsky had stated very clearly that the decision was taken because of the similarities between Goebbel’s ideas about propaganda and manipulation and what is happening in Putin’s Russia.

Examples of deliberate lies and misinformation can be multiplied, and it would require an unrealistic feat of credulity to believe that Russia Today, Sputnik and other Russian sources are not well-aware of the geographical address and the worth of the information the Kharkov News Agency offers. 

http://khpg.org/en/index.php?id=1486259821
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on February 10, 2017, 11:47:19 PM
.Many who read the forum are well aware of the Kremlin trolls-- here is an update.


Kremlin trolls exposed: Russia’s information war against Ukraine

Mykola Hayduk is just one cog in a larger Russian information war machine. Russia seems prepared to spend whatever it takes to destabilize Ukraine, Europe and the rest of the Western world. They do this by hiring thousands of trolls.

Social activist Liudmyla Savchuk knows a lot about how this Russian troll factory works. She was able to infiltrate the Kremlin troll army:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/02/10/kremlin-trolls-exposed-russias-information-war-against-ukraine/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6CjR82EYwBc
Title: The Secrets of Russia’s Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on March 01, 2017, 03:03:05 PM
As if the penetration of Kremlin propaganda was not already extensive enough-- now it is being stepped up.


The Secrets of Russia’s Propaganda War, Revealed


An unauthorized reprint of a military intelligence handbook on psychological warfare gives insight into new propaganda troops.

On Feb. 22, the eve of Russia’s annual Defenders of the Fatherland holiday, Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu announced the creation of a new “information operations force.” The announcement came just hours after the Foreign Ministry unveiled a new project to expose “fake news” published about Russia in the Western press.

“Propaganda needs to be smart, competent and effective,” Shoigu said, justifying the creation of a force capable of waging information war.

Shoigu’s comments regarding new information operations were vague, leaving it unclear exactly what the propaganda troops would do or who they would report to. Experts say they are likely to be part of the cyber forces — a military branch announced in 2013, but that Russian officials have since denied exists.

“They seem to be cyber troops [hackers], not information war troops [propagandists],” says Michael Kofman, a Russia security analyst at the Virginia-based CNA think tank. “The Russian military already has psychological operations units, but they are all useless. It’s the GRU that does all the real information war.”

Others suggest that the force will do both hacking and propaganda. Russia’s understanding of what constitutes information war is much broader than the West’s, says Mark Galeotti, an expert on Russian security and defense services at the Institute of International Relations Prague. For Moscow, “information operations” include everything from propaganda and disinformation to psychological and cyber warfare.

http://themoscowtimes.com/articles/welcome-to-russian-psychological-warfare-operations-101-57301
Title: Russian Disinformation Technology
Post by: JayH on April 13, 2017, 07:43:10 PM
This is probably worthy of a new thread given how topical and relevant all this is at this time .
I have highlighted a few words that are particularly relevant to this forum !

“The single most prevalent Russian response is to attack the critic,” he says. “They use a ‘vilify and amplify’ technique.” Critics are besmirched, sometimes in an official announcement, sometimes through proxies, sometimes through anonymous sources quoted in state media; then paid trolls and highly automated networks of bots add scale. In response, an ad hoc blend of civilians, private companies, and NGOs has evolved to cast a bright, shining light on MH17 and Russian aggression in Ukraine, Syria, and the Atlantic partnership. Exemplifying the values Italo Calvino outlined in Six Memos for the Next Millennium—lightness, quickness, exactitude, visibility, multiplicity, and consistency—their methods are in sharp contrast to the West’s generally sclerotic response to a revanchist Russia.

Russian Disinformation Technology

The penumbra of uncertainty

None of this cuts much ice in Russia. The Kremlin’s fog machine went into overdrive. The full panoply of Russian state media, troll farms, semi-automated botnets, and what Russian novelist Nikolai Leskov called “useful fools and silly enthusiasts” began their murky work. The Russian government’s response to the shooting down of MH17 was a charade, wrapped in a travesty, inside a miasma: a relentless campaign of abuse and deceit, trying to entangle every fact of the matter in a net of disinformation. Numerous attempts were made to hack the Dutch Safety Board. Several Bellingcats experienced spear-phishing attacks. Other targets included French and U.K. TV channels, NATO, OSCE, and the Polish, Dutch, Finnish, and Norwegian governments, as well as German political parties.



http://www.technologyreview.com/s/604084/russian-disinformation-technology/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on August 21, 2017, 07:42:28 PM
Interesting update that is current. Note  -this is just one arm of the Kremlin propaganda vehicle.


My Life at a Russian Propaganda Network
I thought they’d let me be a real journalist at Sputnik news. I was wrong.

What would you do if we asked you to write something that wasn’t true?”

I was sitting in a 10th-floor conference room in the K Street offices of “RIA Global,” otherwise known as the Washington, D.C., bureau of the Russian-owned Sputnik News Service, where I’d come for a job interview. It was in mid-December, just over a month after Donald Trump’s upset election victory, and I’d applied to the company looking to escape from what I like to call “freelance hell,” a period in my life during which I never knew where my next paycheck would come from or whether it would be enough to keep me going.

The question took me by surprise. Sure, I knew Sputnik was state-owned and had a reputation for sometimes playing fast and loose with facts, but was my interviewer probing my willingness to lie or did he want to know whether I possessed the honest-to-goodness ethics that are prized at most news agencies?

“I’d quit,” I replied.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/21/russian-propaganda-sputnik-reporter-215511
Title: Russia’s Infamous ‘Troll Factory’ Is Now Posing as a Media Empire
Post by: JayH on September 06, 2017, 03:10:12 PM
Update on the propaganda watch. There is not much doubt that the Russian disinformation has been very successful as it strikes at the heart of the western media credibility and the west in general.


Russia’s Infamous ‘Troll Factory’ Is Now Posing as a Media Empire

A Russian ‘troll factory’ rebranded itself as a network of legitimate news sites. But hasn’t quite abandoned its old ways.

The secretive troll factory, which garnered massive scrutiny from news organizations both at home and abroad in the past two years, now consists of several websites that produce original reporting and analysis with a strong “patriotic” slant, RBC reported.

The hub of these media operations is a website called FAN (Federal News Agency) whose offices in St. Petersburg are just a stone’s throw from the troll factory’s original location on Savushkina street.

FAN was initially showcased in a New York Times Magazine article in 2015. A Magazine reporter traveled to Petersburg to investigate the troll factory and meet one of its employees. Inexplicably, a muscular man who was introduced as the interviewee’s brother also attended the reporter’s meeting.

http://themoscowtimes.com/articles/russias-infamous-troll-factory-is-now-posing-as-a-media-empire-57534
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 16, 2017, 11:35:03 PM
Since this thread was started a lot more has become known -- and the extent and purpose of the Russian propaganda machine become widely known,culminating with  the interference in the US election process.Of course-- what should not be forgotten is that Ukraine was at the forefront of Russian interference for years prior to that.
  This story adds a little more of the actual background.

"In early 2015, something happened, Max says, and the IRA apparently started burning documents. He didn’t see it himself, but he says he could smell the fire in the office building. Staff were ordered to delete their records, people started being reassigned, “and everything got much worse,” Max claims. After the leak and the interview, IRA administrators apparently started meeting specifically with employees, telling them that they should be proud, not ashamed, of their work. “Because every country has their own kind of organization that defends their national interests and distributes civil unrest,” managers told staff. “This is information war, and it’s official.”

Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/world/2190574-ex-russian-troll-speaks-out-on-us-elex-meddling.html

Ex Russian "troll" speaks out on U.S. election meddling

On October 15, the Russian independent news network Dozhd published the latest development in this ongoing story: an interview with a man who allegedly worked in 2014-2015 for the IRA, Internet Research Agency, the “troll factory” responsible for buying ads on social media and polluting American online news discussion in an apparent effort to destabilize U.S. democracy, according to Meduza.



 http://www.unian.info/world/2190574-ex-russian-troll-speaks-out-on-us-elex-meddling.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 17, 2017, 04:06:40 PM
Investigation finds Russians posing as Americans made payments to activists
Revelations likely to put further spotlight on Russian meddling in US election



Russian troll factory paid US activists to help fund protests during election


Russian trolls posing as Americans made payments to genuine activists in the US to help fund protest movements on socially divisive issues, according to a new investigation by a respected Russian media outlet.

On Tuesday, the newspaper RBC published a major investigation into the work of a so-called Russian “troll factory” since 2015, including during the period of the US election campaign, disclosures that are likely to put further spotlight on alleged Russian meddling in the election.

The existence of the troll factory, which has a history of spamming Russian and English blogs and comment forums, has been reported on by many outlets including the Guardian, but the RBC investigation is the first in-detail look at the organisation’s activity during the election period.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/oct/17/russian-troll-factory-activists-protests-us-election
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 29, 2017, 02:20:26 AM
The specifics of the Russian war are becoming clearer all the time.The confusion the disinformation created ( & does create) is substantial. Even here there were plenty  regurgitating Russian bs .
Interesting is the link to what has happened in the US.
 
Russia blocked Ukrainian activists from Facebook during the annexation of Crimea.

During the annexation of the Crimea in 2014, Russia implemented a mass blockade of Ukrainian activists on Facebook using ‘troll factories’ and security agencies in order to gain advantage for its propaganda, silence the Crimeans posting reports about the invasion, and drown the world community in the flood of disinformation.

http://informnapalm.org/en/russia-blocked-ukrainian-activists-from-facebook-during-the-annexation-of-crimea/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on October 29, 2017, 04:00:52 AM
Only the owner of FB can block somebody, the owner is an American.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 29, 2017, 06:21:56 PM
The extent and intent of the Russian campaign to discredit and harm Ukraine in any way possible is ongoing.
This is a very interesting example.



Congressman Duped Into Holding Sham Hearing for Ukrainian TV

A Kansas Republican's office booked a room in the basement of the Capitol that was used for a fake congressional hearing put on by a shadowy Ukrainian lobbying group.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/congressman-duped-into-holding-sham-hearing-for-ukrainian-tv
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on October 29, 2017, 08:32:47 PM
Only the owner of FB can block somebody, the owner is an American.

Informational Isolation. How Crimea was Blocked

The American TV channel MSNBC, referencing a report by The Daily Beast , described how the Russian Federation used vulnerabilities in Facebook moderation rules to remove unwanted posts and messages during the annexation of the Crimea by generating a large number of false complaints against “prohibited content”. This led to the suppression of reports about Russian aggression and the annexation of the Crimean Peninsula.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on October 29, 2017, 08:38:34 PM
ML is correct.  If there are a certain number of complaints, either about posts or a poster, the posts are removed, or the poster's account is disabled.  It has nothing to do with the owner.


Certain words or images will also trigger an immediate ban.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: calmissile on October 29, 2017, 09:46:39 PM
Sounds like a challenging task for sites to be able to differentiate between state actors organizing troll factories making complaints vs the public at large complaining.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 29, 2017, 10:43:08 PM
Sounds like a challenging task for sites to be able to differentiate between state actors organizing troll factories making complaints vs the public at large complaining.

Without trying to make too many political points at one  ! -- ignoring or pretending the Russian agenda does not exist  in virtually every country is a really dangerous thing to do.

The net result so far is that it has empowered the Russian leadership  as they have so successfully promoted discord and enmity to a high degree.

The story above related to facebook-- but virtually every outlet was attacked ferociously  during 2014 as Russia sort to promote it's agenda in Ukraine.Those efforts go on unabated today -- attempts to promote wholly untrue and fake ( in the true meaning of the word)  stories that are of their making( see my previous post in thread here)continue to this day.

Back in 2014 in the early days of the invasion the sheer amount of Russian BS was designed to smother any real truths .

An example I have often quoted -- in the shooting down of MH 17 by Russia   -- if you searched google with MH17 -- there was hardly a legitimate news story in the first 10 pages of results but lot's of troll inspired Russian BS promoting everything from the official Russian line  to outrageous ridiculous theories. If you recall--often backed up with stooges on the ground. Now that is 'fake" news !

To make matters worse --western news agencies were fed of picked up some of those  stories . Eventually -- the west caught up on some of that -- but only now with the spotlight bought to bear by the US election process has it really come into the mainstream media.

Go back and read some of the blind belief of the Rus believers on this forum back then -- and it is an illustration of how successful that strategy was back then.Even many sympathetic to Ukraine were unsure what to believe. That gradually changed as the Russian lies became beaten by facts -- but it has never stopped the troll army doing it's thing.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on October 30, 2017, 03:47:17 AM
So how about my post about "only FB owner can block the account"?
How can "Russian activist" create the isolation on FB?
You're funny!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on October 30, 2017, 07:33:18 AM
It’s inaccurate. FB algorithms are structured so that if enough people complain, information is deleted automatically. So if someone targets information they want to disappear, it will.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Madlen on October 30, 2017, 07:55:31 AM
I'm not a specialist in political intrigues :). I am Woman:).
But I am sure, that we always have situations, to which we correspond.
And in all countries it is the same.
First we need to cleean our own brain, but not to say about stupid politicians ).
Maybe we are not soooo wonderful too, if we have all this?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BillyB on October 30, 2017, 07:58:50 AM
I'm not a specialist in political intrigues :). I am Woman:).



Women are better than politics! Welcome to the forum Madlen. Start another thread and tell us your story.  :D
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Madlen on October 30, 2017, 09:09:14 AM
BillyB,
Thanks for the hospitality :).
I am very interested in one thing....).
Now I will make new topic).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: ML on October 30, 2017, 09:39:10 AM
I am very interested in one thing....).


Be careful with this kind of sex talk here.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on October 30, 2017, 09:40:27 AM
It’s inaccurate. FB algorithms are structured so that if enough people complain, information is deleted automatically. So if someone targets information they want to disappear, it will.
Ok, INaccurate but what does it have to do with Russian Propaganda?
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on October 30, 2017, 09:48:08 AM
It’s inaccurate. FB algorithms are structured so that if enough people complain, information is deleted automatically. So if someone targets information they want to disappear, it will.
Have you read that wonderful article? This one  http://informnapalm.org/en/russia-blocked-ukrainian-activists-from-facebook-during-the-annexation-of-crimea/

With this funny "This is 100% accurate."
Who can give you 100% accuracy on FB?
The answer is NOBODY (Mark including)
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on October 30, 2017, 11:36:06 AM
She's just saying the report that information was blocked by reports is 100% accurate.  I think you could determine if this is accurate, by looking at when information was posted, and when it was deleted.  Mark Zuckerberg does not personally block data. 


In the current investigation of false news emanating from FB, FB initially denied all culpability.  As more information has come out (not just re Russia, but also fake news from within the US), it has now admitted that it failed.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/media/mark-zuckerberg-admits-facebook-played-part-in-spread-of-fake-news/news-story/861a6ad4662612f818610f8ef6a8db29


Personally, I doubt that "fake news" played a decisive role in the election outcome, but, nevertheless, information should not be so easily manipulated.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Madlen on October 30, 2017, 11:42:23 AM
ML, I do not think, that in my reply there is something unusual).
And this forum is place for normal people, I hope).
Anyway, thanks :).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on October 30, 2017, 11:48:37 AM
ML, I do not think, that in my reply there is something unusual).
And this forum is place for normal people, I hope).
Anyway, thanks :).

Madlen

In English you just used an idiom ....  "only interested in one thing" means - only interested in sex )) 
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Madlen on October 30, 2017, 01:08:45 PM
 :D :D :D thank you :).
I understand).
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 30, 2017, 03:55:12 PM
More information is coming !
It illustrates the extent and reach achieved.


Facebook: Up to 126 million people saw Russian-planted posts


'Many of the ads and posts we've seen so far are deeply disturbing — seemingly intended to amplify societal divisions and pit groups of people against each other.'
Facebook has identified 80,000 Russia-linked posts on its platform that sought to interfere in the 2016 election and were viewed by up to 126 million people, the company's general counsel will tell a Senate panel Tuesday.

The so-called organic posts were planted by the Russia-based Internet Research Agency during the period from January 2015 to August 2017, Colin Stretch will say, according to a copy of his written testimony obtained by POLITICO.

The new information represents a much broader picture of Russian activity on the social network that has previously been disclosed. Facebook previously shared with congressional investigators 3,000 online political ads linked to the same Internet Research Agency. Stretch will tell lawmakers Tuesday those ads were seen by an estimated 11.4 million people. That makes the potential audience for organic posts more than ten times that of the ads that have been at the center of public debate so far.

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/30/facebook-russian-planted-posts-244340
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on November 01, 2017, 01:13:20 AM
Today the US social media owners have been busy testifying before Congress .
I keep posting this stuff because it is important for as many as possible to read what has been happening. The interference in the US election process has created the urgency and awareness --now it is clear that this is not what many believe should be possible.
Ukraine has been at the forefront of Russian attacks.
Changes to twitter’s policy have resulted in the suspension of accounts of top-Ukrainian bloggers in what observers call a concerted campaign to block critics of Russia’s intervention in Ukraine.

Twitter’s new policy misused by pro-Kremlin accounts to block Ukrainian bloggers #SaveUaTwi

According to observers, this is a concerted campaign of pro-Putin twitter accounts, many of which could originate from the infamous Olgino “troll factory.” This inconspucious building in the suburbs of St.Petersburg is the Russian regime’s hub to social media support for Russia’s policies and state-controlled media, the secrets of which were described by an undercover journalist on a one-woman spying mission. This time, it appears that the trolls are moving from verbal abuse and spreading disinformation to active measures.

Twitter user @geomysl made a summary of how the campaign works. According to him, thousands of fake accounts are sending automatic complaints about tweets of top Ukrainian bloggers containing words that can be red-flagged according to twitter’s new policy.

It appears that the account @Leninkaratel is coordinating the campaign, sharing calls to block “undesirable” bloggers. After that, numerous users target the blogger and report a tweet containing a questionable word. The popular account @Andr3ewLVUA here reports on attempts to block him originating from different users:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2016/01/09/twitters-new-policy-misused-by-pro-kremlin-accounts-to-attack-top-ukrainian-bloggers-saveuatwi/#arvlbdata
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on November 14, 2017, 03:29:05 AM
Some of the material appearing now should be compulsory reading-- especially for some of the thickheads we have on the forum.
That is not just aimed at the russophiles --but some of the extremely blind in the greatest country on earth ( lorl)
Ukraine - more accurately -the disruption of Ukraine- was a forefront target  -and skills and methodology learnt there were applied directly to the USA .
This forum has a specific interest in Ukraine-with many members here USA domiciled-- and instead of putting your collective heads in the sand -- it is long overdue to recognise what a real and present danger Putin and russia represent to western democracies -- and to those that want to be democratic,

Inside the Russian 'troll factory': How Putin's unlikely cyber recruits deployed waves of fake news articles, memes and divisive social media posts in the Kremlin's information war on the West

Vitaly Bespalov, 23, was at the heart of Russia's information war on the West
He worked at the St Petersburg 'troll factory' that is being scrutinized by US intelligence committee's investigation on Russian interference
Vitaly revealed the secrets of life inside the troll factory in War in 140 Characters, a new book by journalist David Patrikarakos
He says from inside the troll factory, Putin's cyber army deployed wave after wave of fake news articles and divisive social media posts
Highly-organized strategy is credited with playing a role in toppling Hillary Clinton's presidential bid and helping Donald Trump win the White House
The fake news machine was creative with memes being deployed as click bait

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5074671/Russian-troll-factory-recruits-fake-news.html
Title: More Russian Lies
Post by: JayH on November 14, 2017, 05:45:38 PM
There seems to be no end  to the outright lies Russia promotes,


The Russian Ministry of Defence Publishes Screenshots of Computer Games as Evidence of US Collusion with ISIS


What this in fact showed was a cropped screenshot from the mobile phone game AC-130 Gunship Simulator, specifically a screenshot from a promo video for the game:

A side by side comparison of the Russian MoD image and the mobile phone game screenshot shows they are identical, with even part of the text from the promo video reading “DEVELOPMENT FOOTAGE. THIS IS A WORK IN PROGRESS. ALL CONTENT SUBJECT TO CHANGE.” visible in the cropped image used by the Russian MoD as their “irrefutable evidence”:

http://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2017/11/14/russian-ministry-defence-publishes-screenshots-computer-games-evidence-us-collusion-isis/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on November 21, 2017, 11:38:11 PM
Just saw that you had posted this.


Can you imagine?  I drew  attention to this in another place and it seems to have disappeared!?......

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Darth_Budda on November 22, 2017, 04:18:33 AM
It is a well know FACT,,, that the USA armed groups that later joined ISIS ..    the USA is guilty of war crimes in Syria and Iraq...   using depleted uranium rounds on civilians and arming groups in Syria with out a declaration of war is bull shit... >:(
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on November 22, 2017, 06:15:57 AM
It is a well know FACT,,, that the USA armed groups that later joined ISIS ..   

That is NOT colluding with ISIS ...  is it ?

the USA is guilty of war crimes in Syria and Iraq...   using depleted uranium rounds on civilians and arming groups in Syria with out a declaration of war is bull shit... >:(

Well, whilst I certainly agree the Iraq campaign was a farce - AFTER Saddam's removal - but you seem to forget another nation has been aiding a dictatorship in Syria and been none to fussy about civilians either ((

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on November 27, 2017, 03:14:34 PM
Aided and abetted by Trumps ignorance and stupidity in labelling anything that does not suit his jaundiced views of the media at large as fake --the affect of the Russian disinformation is being exposed more as that same media starts to look more closely at the source and promotion of what in fact are fake stories.


Russian 'troll army' tweets cited more than 80 times in UK media


Members of a Russian “troll army” were quoted more than 80 times across British-read media outlets before Twitter revealed their identity and banned them, a Guardian investigation has shown.

Some posts from the accounts were embedded in articles to provide apparently local reportage and pictures from the sites of disasters and crime scenes around the world. In fact, Twitter claims, all the accounts were run from the offices of the Internet Research Agency in St Petersburg, alleged to be the headquarters of Russia’s troll army.


http://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/nov/20/russian-troll-army-tweets-cited-more-than-80-times-in-uk-media
Title: A guide to Russian propaganda
Post by: JayH on December 18, 2017, 01:27:55 AM
Russian propaganda can be confusing. The fakes and manipulations are endless, often outrageous, and differ depending on their target audience. Russian propaganda for Russians differs from Russian propaganda for Ukrainians, Americans, Germans, or Georgians. With all the crazy fakes, it’s easy losing track of what this coordinated hostile information campaign is pursuing altogether, which makes finding the proper reaction more difficult.

A guide to Russian propaganda. Part 4: Russian propaganda operates by law of war

In the EU, pro-Kremlin outlets try to convince that the Union is doomed and should disintegrate, fulfilling the Kremlin’s dream of a weak and divided Europe, persistently implying that Europeans need to be afraid – of Muslims, of migrants, of their leaders, which opens the door to populism while closing it to reasonable debate.

It also tries to justify Russian aggression abroad and increasingly totalitarian policies at home, implying that Russia’s occupation of Crimea, Russia’s claims to Ukraine, and Putin’s crackdown on his own citizens should be accepted.

Both in Ukraine and the EU, Russian propaganda aims to create divisions, destroy unity, and alienate the people from the leadership. In Ukraine, it incites Ukrainians to overthrow its post-Euromaidan leaders in a “Third Maidan” and suggests that the EU has ignored Ukrainians’ European aspirations and abandoned them, while in the EU it undermines trust in leaders, stokes up fear, anger, resentment, sending the message that the existing leadership doesn’t represent the people’s interests and must be overturned.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/12/15/a-guide-to-russian-propaganda-part-4-russian-propaganda-operates-by-law-of-war/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Doll on December 24, 2017, 06:46:36 AM
 

 Russian meddling in Binomo? US continues to ‘remind’ Moscow of its place, UN envoy tells pranksters


During the 22-minute conversation with their interlocutor, whose voice and tone strikingly resembled that of the UN envoy, the pranksters raised concerns over Russian interference in the political affairs of an imaginary South China Sea island – Binomo – which does not exist on the world map. Haley, however, seemed to be on top of things, claiming the US is watching the situation there very carefully.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RgXL7byTF0

Do you know Binomo?” the impersonator asked. “They have declared independence. They had elections, and we suppose Russians had its intervention
“Yes, of course they did, absolutely,” Haley confidently replied.

Title: A year of Russian propaganda: 1310 cases of Russian fakes
Post by: JayH on December 24, 2017, 07:54:15 PM
As the year comes to an end, one tends to look back over the past twelve months to try to sum up what has happened. But summing up the pro-Kremlin disinformation year is more about what didn’t happen.This is specifically about Russia -- but I would draw everyone's attention to what is going on in the US-- Trump lies as a matter of course -- and his media lackey lap it up-- and repeat obvious lies -it is seriously dangerous for the world.


During the year we have witnessed plenty of spectacular claims from pro-Kremlin mouthpieces, such as the imminent threat of civil war in Sweden, that an American plane dropped a nuclear bomb over Lithuania, and that the US aims to occupy Europe.  Among the things claimed just last week that didn’t happen, we can find a clumsy Ukrainian soldier who didn’t blow himself up (it was a video made for fun), the rape cases in Sweden that rose by a thousand percent (in fact a rise of 1,4% since 2015) and Pope John Paul II claiming that the invasion of migrants has to stop (he just didn’t). Apart from this, we have also seen the usual recurring pro-Kremlin narratives repeated over and over again.

A year of Russian propaganda: 1310 cases of Russian fakes debunked by EU watchdog

   Good Russia
With this theme, Russia is described as an innocent actor which does everything it can to solve the world’s problems but is constantly mistreated by the “West”. During his annual press conference last week, President Putin repeated two favorite recurring themes: that Russia is not involved in the war in Ukraine and that Crimea decided its own fate. As we know, the European Union does not recognize the illegal annexation of Crimea and the Office of the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court has concluded that the situation within the territory of Crimea and Sevastopol amounts to an international armed conflict between Ukraine and the Russian Federation. Meanwhile, Russian state TV repeated the claim that sanctions are aimed at destroying Russia when it is clear that they have been imposed by the international community because Russia decided to break international law. 

http://euromaidanpress.com/2017/12/24/what-didnt-happen-in-2017-eu-vs-disinfo-reported-a-total-of-1310-russian-disinformation-cases/
Title: Inside a Russian disinformation campaign in Ukraine in 2014
Post by: JayH on December 25, 2017, 03:32:31 PM
This story highlights the Russian efforts to misrepresent what was actually happening and has happened in Ukraine.The tactics used by Russia here were the blueprint for what took place in the USA in 2016.
Many who are long term here will recognise the pro Rus   BS as many who swallowed it   & repeated the BS on this forum ( & others) .
Even today ,there are many here have repeated that BS and still can't accept what the reality is.
At the time, some people in Ukraine did understand and see what was going on-- and what the Russian intentions really were.During the first half of the  2014 year, there were constant rumours of a wider Russian invasion being underway . What all the Russian BS did achieve was to cause confusion of people's thinking--particularly with people with stronger connections to Russia .

The report provides a unique window into one GRU team’s effort across six days in 2014. Starting the day after Yanukovych’s fall, the military spies created a slew of fake personas on the social media platforms of Facebook and its Russian equivalent VKontakte, or VK for short. The personas were meant to represent ordinary people from across Ukraine who were disillusioned with opposition protests at Kiev’s central square, called the Maidan.

Inside a Russian disinformation campaign in Ukraine in 2014


By the morning of Feb. 22, 2014, it was clear that the government of Viktor Yanukovych, the beleaguered pro-Russian president of Ukraine, had fallen, amid protests sparked by his decision not to move toward a closer relationship with the European Union.

Yanukovych’s Russian allies denounced his political collapse as a “coup,” and the crisis became a flash point in relations between the Kremlin and the West.

Into the tumult leapt Russia’s military spy agency, the GRU, which launched a covert influence operation — one that presaged what Moscow would do in the United States two years later. The campaign was part of an all-out propaganda offensive against the new government in Kiev and pro-Western demonstrators.

Its goal was to influence key decision-makers and the wider public to pave the way for the Russian military action that was launched Feb. 27 with the seizure of the Crimean parliament building by armed men, according to a classified GRU report obtained by The Washington Post. Crimea was ultimately annexed by Russia.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/inside-a-russian-disinformation-campaign-in-ukraine-in-2014/2017/12/25/f55b0408-e71d-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?utm_term=.659213da8a39
Title: Kremlin trolls burned across the Internet as Washington debated options
Post by: JayH on December 25, 2017, 03:51:27 PM
For those that do want to understand the Russian tactics today's articles explain a lot.


Kremlin trolls burned across the Internet as Washington debated options

The first email arrived in the inbox of CounterPunch, a left-leaning American news and opinion website, at 3:26 a.m. — the middle of the day in Moscow.

“Hello, my name is Alice Donovan and I’m a beginner freelance journalist,” read the Feb. 26, 2016 message.

The FBI was tracking Donovan as part of a months-long counterintelligence operation code-named “NorthernNight.” Internal bureau reports described her as a pseudonymous foot soldier in an army of Kremlin-led trolls seeking to undermine America’s democratic institutions.

Her first articles as a freelancer for CounterPunch and at least 10 other online publications weren’t especially political. As the 2016 presidential election heated up, Donovan’s message shifted. Increasingly, she seemed to be doing the Kremlin’s bidding by stoking discontent toward Democratic front-runner Hillary Clinton and touting WikiLeaks, which U.S. officials say was a tool of Russia’s broad influence operation to affect the presidential race.

“There’s no denying the emails that Julian Assange has picked up from inside the Democratic Party are real,” she wrote in August 2016 for a website called We Are Change. “The emails have exposed Hillary Clinton in a major way — and almost no one is reporting on it.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/kremlin-trolls-burned-across-the-internet-as-washington-debated-options/2017/12/23/e7b9dc92-e403-11e7-ab50-621fe0588340_story.html?tid=hybrid_collaborative_1_na&utm_term=.1d9cd7780d6a
Title: Russian trolls work space threefold in 2018
Post by: JayH on January 10, 2018, 01:16:32 AM
Looks like they are being rewarded !
It does illustrate the importance( to Russia) being placed on spewing garbage messages of the Kremlin !
One would have thought that after all the direct exposure over last few years it would have "disappeared" a little !


Russian troll factory expands its work space threefold in 2018


The infamous Russian troll factory also known as Internet Research Agency (IRA) has been reportedly run by Putin’s ally Yevgeny Prigozhin in the Russian city of Saint-Petersburg. Fow years, the agency has been pushing pro-Russian narratives to promote the Kremlin’s interests in the world attempting to influence domestic policy and public opinion in the E.U., U.S.A., Ukraine, and other countries, or just supporting opposite extreme opinions to sow chaos in target countries.  To achieve its goals, the troll factory employed fake accounts registered on major social networks, online media sites, and on video hosting services. And now it looks like the factory is far from set to be closed in the New Year and its employees would even have better working conditions in 2018

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/01/10/russian-troll-factory-expands-its-work-space-threefold/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 19, 2018, 01:39:24 PM
This thread has proven very useful in understanding how Russia has sort to influence and disrupt the world at large. It has taken time for the level of threat to be recognised.



A list of about 1,000 Lithuanian civic activists had been recently published on a Russian website. Among those listed, there were many who fight Kremlin propaganda. In retaliation, the patriotic Lithuanian activists launched their own online database of “Russian trolls” in Lithuania.hat threat to be recognised.



Baltic “elves” launch online database of pro-Russian trolls to tackle propaganda

The Ukrainian Myrotvorets Center which lists online tens of thousands of those “whose actions have signs of crimes against the national security of Ukraine, peace, human security, and the international law” has welcomed the “Lithuanian nationalists” (as they were labeled in a quoted report by a Russian propaganda media outlet) in regard to launching the Vatnikas project and offered its help.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/01/20/baltic-elves-launch-vatnikas-online-database-of-pro-russian-trolls-to-tackle-propaganda/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=KDsrwSX7piw
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on January 21, 2018, 06:12:11 PM

“Few in the West understand,” the Russian commentator writes, “what the world is dealing with in the form of the Putin regime and its information arm;” and because of that, they commit “two principled and fatal” mistakes reflecting their willingness to take the claims of Moscow’s representatives at face value.

Most people in the West make two fatal mistakes about Moscow ‘media,’


“In Putin’s Russia,” however, “there is no such ideology and no image of the future. There are not and cannot be any books entitled ‘Putinism.’ The Putin media simply destroys the foundations of all norms, moral, legal and scientific. It simply sows hatred, lies, crudities and provocations.”

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/01/21/most-people-in-the-west-make-two-fatal-mistakes-about-moscow-media-yakovenko-says/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Bounder on January 21, 2018, 07:17:32 PM
“Few in the West understand,” the Russian commentator writes, “what the world is dealing with in the form of the Putin regime and its information arm;” and because of that, they commit “two principled and fatal” mistakes reflecting their willingness to take the claims of Moscow’s representatives at face value.

Most people in the West make two fatal mistakes about Moscow ‘media,’


“In Putin’s Russia,” however, “there is no such ideology and no image of the future. There are not and cannot be any books entitled ‘Putinism.’ The Putin media simply destroys the foundations of all norms, moral, legal and scientific. It simply sows hatred, lies, crudities and provocations.”

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/01/21/most-people-in-the-west-make-two-fatal-mistakes-about-moscow-media-yakovenko-says/

Certainly this is true for the LOST country of Ukraine or should I say "the Ukraine"?  Ukraine and it's supporters are quite happy to argue about articles, whereas is the future is just some kind of oblivion.  Don't worry, we are doing quite well under the massive Putin misinformation campaign.  While we are all massively oppressed here in Russia, we continue to look forward to the continuing progress here.  Maybe there will even be a day when the Ukrainian mensheviks lose their sway and the majority can get back to peace with Russia.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mhr7 on January 21, 2018, 08:13:28 PM
Certainly this is true for the LOST country of Ukraine or should I say "the Ukraine"?  Ukraine and it's supporters are quite happy to argue about articles, whereas is the future is just some kind of oblivion.  Don't worry, we are doing quite well under the massive Putin misinformation campaign.  While we are all massively oppressed here in Russia, we continue to look forward to the continuing progress here.  Maybe there will even be a day when the Ukrainian mensheviks lose their sway and the majority can get back to peace with Russia.
This is you Bounder-

Quote
1. The Honeymoon Stage
The first stage of culture shock is often overwhelmingly positive during which travelers become infatuated with the language, people and food in their new surroundings. At this stage, the trip or move seems like the greatest decision ever made, an exciting adventure to stay on forever.

At some point you'll wake up.

http://medium.com/global-perspectives/the-4-stages-of-culture-shock-a79957726164
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Bounder on January 21, 2018, 09:20:17 PM
This is you Bounder-

At some point you'll wake up.

http://medium.com/global-perspectives/the-4-stages-of-culture-shock-a79957726164

The honeymoon ended long ago and I'm overcompensating for obvious reasons.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: mhr7 on January 21, 2018, 09:40:34 PM
The honeymoon ended long ago and I'm overcompensating for obvious reasons.

So you know the true reality of Putin and the state of the Russian media but you're lying to make an impression.
Title: Russia’s Full Spectrum Propaganda
Post by: JayH on January 23, 2018, 05:24:37 PM

The importance of understanding how Russia is influencing( & distorting) so many cannot be underestimated --or ignored.
The detail here- a case study example- is very interesting to follow.


Russia’s Full Spectrum Propaganda
A case study in how Russia’s propaganda machine works


The Russian government’s propaganda and influence operations use a full spectrum model which spans social and traditional media.

Some of the channels it uses are overt and official; others are covert and claim to be independent. They all work together to create the appearance of multiple voices and points of view, masking a coordinated approach

http://medium.com/dfrlab/russias-full-spectrum-propaganda-9436a246e970
Title: The shield and sword of Kremlin propaganda
Post by: JayH on March 12, 2018, 06:42:18 PM
Over the life of this thread  a lot has been linked here that helps the understanding of the depth and reach of state sponsored propaganda -this article focuses on the philosophy of Russian propaganda.
The astonishing reach and acceptance achieved in the US clearly illustrates how dangerous -- and effective it has( and is) been.
 


The shield and sword of Kremlin propaganda


The concept of “informational sovereignty” epitomizes the double standards of the Russian approach – “saving its own sovereignty” at the cost of the sovereignty of other states, by interfering in their internal affairs.

This means that sovereignty as such is not a value for Russia. Its “sword and shield” is all about a one-sided justification of interferences playing into the interests of one state that does not want to abide by international law and human rights standards – the Russian Federation.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/03/12/russias-ashmanov-doctrine-the-shield-and-sword-of-kremlin-propaganda/
Title: Catch Carlos If You Can
Post by: JayH on March 14, 2018, 08:16:09 PM
This link could have been posted in the MH 17 thread -- but I think nearly everyone ( with a brain) understands that the Russians were responsible for shooting down that aircraft and the murder of 298 innocent people.

The anatomy of the Russian disinformation attempts that  are designed to create confusion and alternative potential explanations should be of interest to us all.
Over the last 4 years there has become a much greater understanding of the Russian methodology and effectiveness of sowing havoc in the media -- and the amazing acceptance by some of the ridiculous . At one time much of this would have simply been dismissed  -- but-- modern media facillitates the spread of of "fake" and blatantly false stories.

In the Russians case here-- they go to some effort to create a lie with legs.Of note- Putin himself used this explanation in interviews.

"A mysterious Twitter persona launched one of the most enduring Moscow-friendly hoaxes of the MH17 airline tragedy. We found the ex-convict behind the lie."

Catch Carlos If You Can

On July 17, 2014, Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was shot down over territory held by Russia-backed separatists in eastern Ukraine, killing all 298 people on board. Immediately after the tragedy, @spainbuca purported to be watching the events unfold from an air-traffic control tower at Kyiv's Boryspil Airport. It posted a string of dramatic claims suggesting Ukraine had shot down the plane and was attempting a cover-up.

One claim in particular ricocheted across Russian state media and Twitter: that two Ukrainian fighter jets had flown close to the Boeing 777 shortly before it disappeared from the radar.

But red flags about @spainbuca's credibility emerged quickly as well. Why was a Spanish air-traffic controller working in Kyiv? Where were the reports corroborating his claims? Why was he back in Ukraine after telling RT Spanish that he'd fled the country?

No evidence ever emerged that such a Spanish air-traffic controller actually worked at Boryspil, and @spainbuca was suspended by Twitter shortly after its MH17 tweets. Journalists and social-media users widely dismissed "Carlos" as a ruse. Still, some conspiracy theorists insisted his story was real and that he had either been targeted by Western intelligence services or gone into hiding. Others claimed he was part of the notorious Russian troll farm eventually indicted in the United States for alleged meddling in U.S. elections. One Ukrainian official has suggested the Carlos persona was a Russian intelligence operation.

The claims by Carlos about MH17 and his professional background were indeed a hoax.

http://www.rferl.org/a/catch-carlos-if-you-can-mh17-russia-ukraine/29065244.html
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on March 14, 2018, 08:33:07 PM

Thought I would add this summary here too.  Of note -- is the way the nonsense explanation got to mainstream media,



The most comprehensive guide ever to MH17 conspiracies

Why the theories?
The reason for the conspiracy theories is clear:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/10/14/confuse-and-obfuscate-the-most-comprehensive-guide-ever-to-mh17-conspiracies/
Title: Thirty percent of the news on Russian TV is dedicated to Ukraine
Post by: JayH on May 24, 2018, 09:35:55 PM

Often enough( all to often) we see these themes offered by the pro-Rus posters even here on this forum.
A third of all news on top Russian TV channels is dedicated to Ukraine, and more than 90% of references are negative. In the spotlight of Russian mass media are Ukrainian state institutions, which, according to the Russian media, represent a radical minority


Thirty percent of the news on Russian TV is dedicated to Ukraine


HWAG has analyzed the news of the top Russian channels over the past three years and presented six main narratives of Russian propaganda about Ukraine. 33% of all references to Ukraine are related to the thesis that there is a civil war in Ukraine. “Within this narrative, a lot is communicated about the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The focus is on the delegitimization of the Armed Forces. The Armed Forces of Ukraine are being delegitimized by accusations that it commits crimes against the civilian population, against humanity. Allegedly, the Armed Forces suffer huge losses and are the source of ceasefire violations”, explained Ruslan Kavatsiuk, an analyst of Hybrid Warfare Analytical Group, advisor to the Vice Prime Minister of Ukraine for European and Euro-Atlantic Integration.

In the second narrative, Russian propaganda presents Ukraine as “a failed state”. Russian media reinforce this thesis by delegitimizing public authorities. In 15% of all references to Ukraine, Russian propaganda highlights the diverse Russia assistance to Donbas. “This is one of the evidence of how the Russian authorities are trying to justify for their own population, on the one hand, why the Crimea was taken to the “Russian world”, and Donbas was not. On the other hand, the level of tension in Donbas itself is decreasing because the local population living there also wants to understand the answer to this question,” said Ruslan Kavatsiuk.

Among the other narratives of Russian propaganda is the coverage of Ukraine as a state in which Russophobia prevails, the Russian-speaking population is being persecuted, and the radical and “fascist” minority is in power. In six percent of the news, Russian mass media use the thesis that Ukraine is a puppet state controlled by the West. “If Ukraine, for example, has gained visa-free regime, it’s because the West is flirting with Ukraine. If the West has given nothing to Ukraine – it means that the West is punishing its puppet Ukraine. This is the carrot and the stick used by the West to rule Ukraine”, Ruslan Kavatsiuk said.

In addition to the fact that Russian mass media cover Ukraine only from the negative side, they often present false information. “Stop Fake” has found more than 2 thousand fake news in the Russian media over the past 4 years. “If you have been wondering which Russian media organizations are involved in the fake news production, the answer is all or almost all, briefly speaking. It does not make any difference if the organizations are state-owned or are in private ownership. In Russian realities, there is no difference, because, de facto, the information flow, the news cycle is regulated from the center”, – said Evhen Fedchenko, co-founder of “StopFake”.

http://uacrisis.org/66976-grupa-z-analizu-gibridnih-zagroz-ucmc
Title: A third of Moscow TV news is about Ukraine, and 90% of it is negative
Post by: JayH on June 02, 2018, 06:27:53 PM
It is interesting how much prominence is given in Russian media to promoting the Kremlin narrative  -it amounts to brainwashing the Russian people.



A third of Moscow TV news is about Ukraine, and 90% of it is negative

A new study by the Ukraine Crisis Media Center says that between July1, 2014, and December 31, 1917, a third of all news stories on the three major Moscow television stations was devoted to Ukraine and that “more than 90 percent” of these stories were negative.


The study finds this Russian news followed six major narratives. In descending order of importance, these are:

“In Ukraine a civil war is going on,”
“Ukraine is not an independent state,”
“The Russian Federation is helping the Donbas,”
“Russophobia is widespread in Ukraine,”
“Fascists and radicals are destroying Ukraine,” and
“Ukraine is a puppet of the West.”



http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/06/02/study-a-third-of-moscow-tv-news-is-about-ukraine-and-nine-tenths-of-it-is-negative/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on June 06, 2018, 02:09:12 AM
You 'forgot'

"It is a failed state"

"The legality of it's ceding from the Soviet Union is questioned" ..
Title: Why Is the International Media Still Repeating Kremlin Propaganda about Ukraine?
Post by: JayH on July 14, 2018, 06:10:41 PM
Back in 2014  when the Russians invaded Ukraine Russia was able to dominate the news"sources"-- both through more conventional traditional news communications but very importantly through the planting of "fake" blatant lies through the troll factories and the promotion of these stories.

Many managed to find their way into mainstream media -- who were either too lazy or ignorant to understand how they were being used . It caused great confusion in Ukraine -- and particularly around the world as it struggled to understand what was going on in Ukraine & Crimea .

Subsequently -- we have all seen( & are seeing) what an impact the same Russian strategies can have on  both internal politics and on the international stage.

The  article is self explanatory--
"The onus now is on Ukraine to continue defending itself on the information battlefield. Ukrainian officials and activists must use the appearance of Russian propaganda tropes in the international media as an opportunity to inform and educate. Ukraine’s international ambiguity left it uniquely vulnerable in 2014 to Russian information warfare, but there is no longer any excuse for allowing Moscow to maintain its monopoly of the conversation."

Why Is the International Media Still Repeating Kremlin Propaganda about Ukraine?

When two members of Croatia’s World Cup squad recorded a nine-second video dedicating their quarter final victory over Russia to Ukraine, they chose to accompany it with the patriotic slogan “Slava Ukraini” (“Glory to Ukraine”). As former Dynamo Kyiv players, they appear to have believed they were sending a somewhat cheeky but essentially harmless message to their Ukrainian friends. However, to millions of horrified viewers in Russia, there was nothing innocent about the video. To them, it was a dire insult to national honor straight out of the Nazi era.

This historically illiterate interpretation of the phrase “Glory to Ukraine” is perfectly in line with modern Russia’s preference for viewing all things Ukrainian through the narrow and distorting prism of Ukraine’s World War II-era independence movement. According to this warped logic, “Glory to Ukraine” is a fascist phrase because it enjoyed prominence among Ukraine’s World War II insurgent army, a force which briefly formed a strategic alliance with the invading Germans before fighting against both Nazis and Soviets for the remainder of the war.

These insurgents have long been the poster boys of a Kremlin campaign to justify the invasions of Crimea and eastern Ukraine by painting all Ukrainian patriots as the collective reincarnation of Hitler’s hordes. Indeed, since Soviet times, the preferred propaganda response to the Ukrainian independence movement has always been to brand Ukrainian patriots as fascists, with “Glory to Ukraine” as their version of “Heil Hitler.” 

This depiction was never historically accurate, but the evolution of the phrase in recent years has rendered it absurd. Far from being a product of World War II, the origins of “Glory to Ukraine” are traceable to long before the 1940s. The phrase has its roots in Ukraine’s early twentieth century national liberation movement and was enthusiastically embraced by various different military formations during the failed statehood bid that saw a number of short-lived Ukrainian republics emerge in the chaotic aftermath of the Bolshevik Revolution. It has remained in common usage ever since, gaining in popularity during particularly intensive periods of Ukraine’s nation-building story such as the perestroika years and the 2013-14 Revolution of Dignity. Today, “Glory to Ukraine” is a wholly unremarkable patriotic refrain used by everyone from national politicians and celebrities to visiting dignities and diplomats. In this sense, it is comparable to “Vive la France” or “God Bless America.”


http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/why-is-international-media-still-repeating-kremlin-propaganda-about-ukraine
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on July 14, 2018, 08:35:25 PM
JayH


Using the platform of the FIFA World Cup to push a political agenda is against the rules

Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: BdHvA on July 15, 2018, 06:55:23 PM
JayH

Using the platform of the FIFA World Cup to push a political agenda is against the rules

JayH, While I am uncertain which rules Moby is referring to I suspect he is correct and you should now this from Rules 2 & 69.1 in our sport.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on July 15, 2018, 07:27:48 PM

JayH, While I am uncertain which rules Moby is referring to I suspect he is correct and you should now this from Rules 2 & 69.1 in our sport.


Av -- needless to say Moby is as clueless as ever . :D

Ahh Rules - well -- Russia  the lawless kleptocracy ruled by systemised cheating and total disrespect for laws -let alone rules !
The while exercise of the Russian World Cup was a 100% propaganda --Russian propaganda ! So any idea that it was not political is just a nonsense.
The response to the Croatians video -- proves it beyond any doubt

"“Sports are not connected to politics” – a very old fallacy dating back to the antiquity. Since Athens and Sparta had to suspend the never-ending war to hold the Olympics, sports and politics have gone hand in hand. In the 21st century they are as close as ever. So, if Russia is not at a hybrid war with Ukraine, why should the “Glory to Ukraine” be regarded as offensive to the “Russian public” and why would it necessitate formal apologies and exemplary disciplinary actions from both FIFA and HNS? Apparently both FIFA and HNS are well aware of the “regional particularities” and of the political undertones of the “Glory to Ukraine” slogan given the context of the time and place where it was uttered by two Croatians."

“Glory to Ukraine” – Croatian football players’ video and FIFA’s reaction provoke a powerful online response and bust a few myths

Russian propaganda narratives and popular western myths

“Russians and Ukrainians are brotherly nations” – a phrase Putin never tires to repeat. However, the sour reaction of the general Russian public to the full Ukrainian equivalent of the “Vive la France!” slogan shows that Russian society is rife with anti-Ukrainian sentiment and imperialist chauvinism.

“Putin is the problem, Russians are OK” – a mantra embraced by many liberal politicians and journalists in the West. However, the public reaction towards Vida and Vukojević as well as Croatians as a nation shows that the mass aggression in Russia could be easily manipulated and channeled in the desired direction. State media are fuelling a mobilization mentality upholding the feeling that Russia is “besieged with enemies”, and these narratives fall on a fertile ground. Apparently the conflict of the collective West with Russia is on a much deeper level of values and ideology, rather than just politics.



http://informnapalm.org/en/glory-to-ukraine-croatian-football/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on July 22, 2018, 01:48:38 AM
Av -- needless to say Moby is as clueless as ever

Yet...nothing to back up your 'contention' whilst my pointing out your serial howlers goes without a valid  riposte !

Once again - the Russians were far too smart to have been found of any wrong doing re their bid for 2018 ....  We may have our opinions as to how they got the prize - but they DID

That they used the first day as a smoke-screen to cover up pension age rises and an increase in sales tax is 'interesting'

Using the dispensable 'Dima' as a messenger ... 

 
Title: “Russophobia” as a Russian propaganda tool
Post by: JayH on October 03, 2018, 12:06:05 AM
In the universe of Russian propaganda, Russia is an ideal state of sorts. International criticism of any Russian actions or misbehaviors is often labeled as Russophobic by the Russian officials, or, on lower levels of the Kremlin propaganda machine, by state-run media or even experts on the talk shows they host.
“Russophobia” is a manipulative defensive line, often used by Russian propaganda to reduce any criticism of the Russian state to an irrational intolerance towards the Russian people.

Here is published a piece by EU’s disinformation watchdog on propaganda usage of the clams of Russophobia.

“Russophobia” as a Russian propaganda tool

 

These viewpoints are not new; they have repeatedly been pushed by Russian authorities and the media they control.

The cornerstones of this narrative are that international criticism of the Kremlin’s disinformation campaign is grounded in “Russophobia“; that RT and Sputnik are like other media, which strive to present a variety of viewpoints; and that it is Western countries that limit media freedom, not Russia.
“Russophobia”
When international criticism of the Kremlin’s policies and actions is described as “Russophobia,” it reduces this criticism to an irrational form of intolerance towards Russians.

The “Russophobia” accusations became a standard defensive line for the Kremlin after Russia’s invasion of Crimea in 2014 and is now a universal explanatory model. It is convenient because the dismissal does not imply any real discussion of the circumstances that are being criticized.

Claims of “Russophobia” have recently been used as a defence against Western reactions to the Salisbury poisoning. Sometimes “Russophobia” is even presented as the very source of Russia’s worsened relations with the West.

“Russophobia” appears as a keyword more than 80 times among the cases gathered in our database of pro-Kremlin disinformation.

http://euromaidanpress.com/2018/10/01/russophobia-as-a-russian-propaganda-tool/
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on October 05, 2018, 05:03:03 AM
JayH

if you REALLY want your cut and pastes to taken seriously - it would be good form to admit your howlers ..

In the meantime this 'russophobe' thoroughly enjoys his 'status' amongst useful idiots
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: JayH on October 05, 2018, 03:22:02 PM
JayH

if you REALLY want your cut and pastes to taken seriously - it would be good form to admit your howlers ..

In the meantime this 'russophobe' thoroughly enjoys his 'status' amongst useful idiots

 :mooning: :mooning: :mooning:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: msmob on October 05, 2018, 10:59:14 PM
So, this is JayH's way of dealing with a situation when he is proven to have been clueless and careless  :popcorn:
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Boethius on March 06, 2022, 07:25:32 PM
Certainly this is true for the LOST country of Ukraine or should I say "the Ukraine"?  Ukraine and it's supporters are quite happy to argue about articles, whereas is the future is just some kind of oblivion.  Don't worry, we are doing quite well under the massive Putin misinformation campaign.  While we are all massively oppressed here in Russia, we continue to look forward to the continuing progress here.  Maybe there will even be a day when the Ukrainian mensheviks lose their sway and the majority can get back to peace with Russia.

I post this as I see you are here, presumably to find some non Kremlin (i.e., actual) truth.

The citizens of the "lost country" have spoken, and they are willing to die for their future, despite what the Putin misinformation campaign states.

Yesterday in Irpin, a mother and her two young children were shot down in cold blood by Russian forces.   So was a toddler.  They were all solely among civilians when they were shot at.  Another 8 people in that line also died.  A Ukrainian pensioner who lived in the US, but came back to Ukraine regularly to place Ukrainian orphans, particularly disabled children, with American families as adoptees, was shot by a Russian sniper as he exited a shelter.  There are numerous stories like this everywhere Russian troops have entered the country.  I hope this sits well with you in Putin's "peace loving" paradise.
Title: Critical Rus Theory
Post by: krimster2 on March 09, 2022, 06:33:54 PM
this is the ideology being pushed to the lower echolons and embraced by the top one
anti-democracy, rule of law as being western and not suitable for russki mir

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

PS, I HAD to read all his books!!!


PSDva, I freakin hate the Tambovs!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on March 09, 2022, 06:58:08 PM
and a side note:

rus see ya is moving to cut the Russian public off from non Russian web sites to spare them the trauma of seeing the war pics
they will be using a giant "iron curtain" that cannot be penetrated by Interweb Cables cuz they're too thick...

Title: Re: Critical Rus Theory
Post by: 2tallbill on March 09, 2022, 07:00:27 PM
this is the ideology

Nice to see you back at the forum!

Welcome back!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on March 09, 2022, 07:04:30 PM
spossiba moy droog

unfortunately, can't say a lot about "stuff"
everyone in Russia and the USA is begging me to "keep my mouth shut"
so for their sakes, I must remain silent
but Gozpedy!
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: Trenchcoat on March 10, 2022, 12:03:16 AM
spossiba moy droog

unfortunately, can't say a lot about "stuff"
everyone in Russia and the USA is begging me to "keep my mouth shut"
so for their sakes, I must remain silent
but Gozpedy!

Great to see you posting again Krim, wondered what happened to you, if you had been taken by the virus or something. Did you make the move to Russia? all the plans you had?

Looks like you were right, the Russians attacked and attacked in February.
Title: Re: The Propaganda War
Post by: krimster2 on March 10, 2022, 12:08:41 PM
Russki Zeitgeist in Moscva went from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIOHSAfJ4_s

to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqohApD6Ng8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y13sm8OJTf4

in one month

can't wait to see the musica next year, it'll be awesome!!