Red Flags and Green Lights !!!

[Shadow]

I think all rivardco is saying is the hard and fast "rules" about women which appear on forums and service providers' "tips" are useless.  I tend to agree.

I agree with that as well.

And one of the most common problems of guys is that whenever confronted with something that causes a red or orange flag, they seek explanations to turn it off. With the old 'cultural differences' as the last straw to explain it away.
As most of the MOB sites will contain some explanation for orange and red lights, its easy to stay in dreams until the woman finally has to hit the guy on the head with a clue bat for his lack of understanding subtle signs.

[IAmZon]

And one of the most common problems of guys is that whenever confronted with something that causes a red or orange flag, they seek explanations to turn it off. With the old 'cultural differences' as the last straw to explain it away.

TRUE.

Maybe I am changing teams, but I am starting to see things from the RW perspective ?!?!?   In my recent case, I WAS THE ONE with the Red Flags LOL

It is true that men see mostly what they want to see, and do need strong clarification and guidance, but that is because they are making large financial and emotional decisions too fast, and with a mentality of "need" most of the time.  What good can come of that?

[Faux Pas]

TRUE.

Maybe I am changing teams, but I am starting to see things from the RW perspective ?!?!?   In my recent case, I WAS THE ONE with the Red Flags LOL

Now THAT'S funny, I don't care who you are. You seem hellbent on reinventing the wheel and attempting to explain away or justify why no rules apply and all bets are off to rivardco. I have some sad news for you my friend. You are just another trailblazer where 100's of 1000's have trailblazed before.

Your first trip to Ukraine. You've met a hot babe 20 years younger than you and now you've discovered the holy grail. She is so different than any women you've met before and you can see this woman in the picture for the rest of your life. Where have we heard THAT before?

It is true that men see mostly what they want to see, and do need strong clarification and guidance, but that is because they are making large financial and emotional decisions too fast, and with a mentality of "need" most of the time.  What good can come of that?

Pot, kettle, black 

[IAmZon]

Your first trip to Ukraine. You've met a hot babe 20 years younger than you and now you've discovered the holy grail. She is so different than any women you've met before and you can see this woman in the picture for the rest of your life. Where have we heard THAT before?

First trip to Ukraine - NOT first time to the Rodeo.  Been doing this for the better part of 4 years.  Our my toe in the water for a 54 day trip to Ukraine.  Just so happens, I met a woman that sort of got in my way.   I was sort of hell bent on going around the world like this. All plans are on hold now.

I TRIED to put a dent in the traditional MOB narrative just to bring it up to date. Seems like there are some old salts that want to just reverberate the same old.   All good with me.  I think I found what I was looking for

[Muzh]

Totally oblivious.
 
 

[LiveFromUkraine]

First trip to Ukraine - NOT first time to the Rodeo.  Been doing this for the better part of 4 years.  Our my toe in the water for a 54 day trip to Ukraine.  Just so happens, I met a woman that sort of got in my way.   I was sort of hell bent on going around the world like this. All plans are on hold now.

I TRIED to put a dent in the traditional MOB narrative just to bring it up to date. Seems like there are some old salts that want to just reverberate the same old.   All good with me.  I think I found what I was looking for

That tends to happen when you go to marriage agencies.  You found a good looking, young woman with a sizeable age gap.  You immediately went gaga, stopped dating other women and professed you're not worthy.

Great to hear you're not like the rest and did something totally different. 

[GQBlues]

That tends to happen when you go to marriage agencies.  You found a good looking, young woman with a sizeable age gap.  You immediately went gaga, stopped dating other women and professed you're not worthy.

Great to hear you're not like the rest and did something totally different. 

Well, let's not be too harsh with our hero. He did took his time for a good part of a week and let love unfold 'naturally' with a woman from a marriage agency.  Unlike everyone else before him who made financial and emotional decisions pretty fast.

[Gator]

First trip to Ukraine - NOT first time to the Rodeo. 

Yet you chose to have your hand held.  You have international travel experience, and still thought you needed wingmen, planned itinerary, etc.   So you joined a tour.  Trail blazers don't go on tours. 

Just because you realized that you did not need such after just a few days does not make you a trail blazer.  It is my belief that most of the RWD men did not go on a tour.
 
Even after breaking away from the tour, you still used a MOB small agency.  Again, that is not trail blazing.  It is taking a risk -  of getting deceived.  In this case the agency owner gave you good advice, tailored for you.
 
Your trip was different in one key way.  You arrived on a WNVM trip and converted it quickly to a VO trip.   You  used your people skills to decide what was best for you and whether is was legitimate even though certain biomarkers were not green.   You pursued only one because you deemed she was worth it, even though every city has many alternatives.  That does make you different from some men, yet not different  IMO from most of the married and committed men at RWD. 
 
Don't concern yourself with proclaiming how different you are.  Instead concern yourself with how different Irina is from the women of your past and whether you are a good man for her.
 
A question.   If you had written a number of UW and Irina was one of them, would you have selected her for intensive correspondence such as Skype?  Would you have gone to Ukraine just to meet her (a WMVO trip)?

[Gator]

Unlike everyone else before him who made financial and emotional decisions pretty fast.

When saying such, you need to a smiley or two.  We really need a "tongue in cheek" emoticon.

[Muzh]

When saying such, you need to a smiley or two.  We really need a "tongue in cheek" emoticon.

Absolutely.

[IAmZon]

Yet you chose to have your hand held.  You have international travel experience, and still thought you needed wingmen, planned itinerary, etc.   So you joined a tour.  Trail blazers don't go on tours.   Just because you realized that you did not need such after just a few days does not make you a trail blazer.  It is my belief that most of the RWD men did not go on a tour.  Even after breaking away from the tour, you still used a MOB small agency.  Again, that is not trail blazing.  It is taking a risk -  of getting deceived.  In this case the agency owner gave you good advice, tailored for you.  Your trip was different in one key way.  You arrived on a WNVM trip and converted it quickly to a VO trip.   You  used your people skills to decide what was best for you and whether is was legitimate even though certain biomarkers were not green.   You pursued only one because you deemed she was worth it, even though every city has many alternatives.  That does make you different from some men, yet not different  IMO from most of the married and committed men at RWD.   Don't concern yourself with proclaiming how different you are.  Instead concern yourself with how different Irina is from the women of your past and whether you are a good man for her.
A question.   If you had written a number of UW and Irina was one of them, would you have selected her for intensive correspondence such as Skype?  Would you have gone to Ukraine just to meet her (a WMVO trip)?

I pissed off some people here because I said the AFA tour and photo sessions and PR activity in a small town embarrassed me.  Some people got their feelings hurt / or want to say I am the same thing as the short old guy with the camera crew - FINE - NO BIGGEY

I have pissed others off ... Others have opposed / laughed at the idea that I would stay concentrate on one woman for 70% of my trip - COOL - but, if I want to waste my time, it is my time to waste.

And, I have pissed others off with a cocky attitude ... suggesting that I have enough experience with women not to trip on my pecker (although I admit I did not use it over the last 14 days LOL).

BUT, and this is important, I have been living more than 50% of my life in places other than the USA for about 4 years.  So, I view these last two months as a continuation of a life style.     Many of these times I have lived / worked with those that own /operate / manage agencies tours whatever.  This is the FIRST TIME I participated in torus, middlemen, and used agencies in hopes of finding a match.   And, Gator, you are correct although this is turning into a "long trip", and I have traveled by myself only 70% of the time, this trip has been geriatric and boring compared to my life in South America.

Let's put all that aside please for my next post, please.  What follows is substantive  (IF you want to call me names, please refer to one of the other active threads that are already full of adhominem (personal) observations and comments )

[IAmZon]

I have been in the dragons den!  In response to Gator's question ... if I wrote to Irina:

Irina would not have known, and she would not have been the one writing to me.   I have been to the offices and seen a pit of computers with translators typing away.  Translators tend to be the most jaded of them all because they are paid to engage with men through letter writing - after a couple months / years their faith in men / foreigners is completely ruined.

Would she have SKYPED with me upon request after several income generating letters ... yes, if it was arranged, maybe.  It is a money making artificial business model that is not grounded in truth!    Women are told they need to meet with 20 men in person before they find the right match.  That means they have to go along with trying to get a man here from time to time.  The women are not entirely complicit, yet the situation is far from ideal. GET IT.   

Small businesses, local marriage agencies eke out a living working with large web sites that set the rules and pay 30 - 40 K a month in google adwords to get the traffic and customers.  AFA  CharmingBrides and others.  These local businesses feed profiles into the large web sites and write letters for income. They work with multiple web sites simultaneously.  Look at it from the different perspectives:

= Local Agency need to make money, and nothing really happens until a MAN VISITS.  The internet activity is just PR / Sales stuff.  99% of men that write letters will never come to visit.  If an agency encouraged a good woman to engage in all letter writing, she would loose interest and go away in a few months.  So, they do not put stock in this activity.  They are looking at it like Watering The Lawn.  IF A MAN COMES HERE, then you have a chance to develop an honest relationship with the local management and women - only a chance.

= The men writing and reading the letters.  These guys are hoping that they are developing an unique relationship with THIS WOMAN.  In reality it is an illusion. 

= Big Web Sites and US based promoters.  They make most of the money and set down harsh rules on the local businesses.  They apply performance standards and apply charge-backs.  It is a hard nose nickel and dime business, and nobody is making money except the US based promoters.

Of course there are tons of guys that get conned. women too.  There is enough disappointment to go around.

Let's get back to Irina.  She has seen this whole thing play out too many times.  She has had her hopes high, and let down.  She does not take letter writing seriously.  Jesus, she does not even take one visit SERIOUSLY!  She has seen men (apparently good men) come her with good attractive women, both fall in love. Then the man leaves after a couple weeks, never to return, and it turns out he is married with 2 kids.  These type of stories are as common on this side as pro-daters on ours.  This leaves a very steep challenge to over-come. This may partially explain her initial mentality with me over the first two weeks.

Again, if you develop relationship with local agency owners - and are realistic and well mannered and do not behave like a PIG - then it is possible to get very good, sincere service. I HAVE.  I would be happy to PM those interested with my contacts.  I do not want to post a bunch of contact information on a public site, because it will look like I am sponsoring and pushing people.  I do not want the commercial members here to start pitching a fit.  (However, I must remark that I have thought Eduard's approach makes more and more sense to me for most guys that need a wing man).

There is one company that is worthy of a special mention.  www.FHDating.com  This guy and his company are different.  He has helped me often.  He let me work in one of his offices a couple days when my internet was down.  He volunteer to buy me a train ticket this week when he was in Kiev. And, all the while I have not been a paying client. He has made no money on me, nor has he hassled me. He is from Portugal, but married a woman from Poltava. They live here happily and have a baby.   He runs an apartment rental company, travel agency and support service AND a selective marriage agency www.FHDating.com   HE IS DIFFERENT.  You will not see his best girls on the site.  Why? Because they do not want their photos on the internet on a dating agency. They understand the social taboos.  He has a big mirror in his office and he often tells clients to look in the mirror (this happens when a 60 year old, out of shape man enters saying he is sincere and looking for a wife ... then selects women 19 - 24 year olds with model quality looks LOL)  He works rather closely with the man and woman during the introduction phase.  I have met 3 guys that have used his service and are now waiting with their fiances for the visa process to be completed.   They are damn happy.

If you are serious about this,
I really think email and letter writing is almost hopeless nowadays.
I really think that going to bigger cities with little Russian and little time is almost hopeless too.
 
If you have little time, the biggest variable is the woman's psychological predisposition.  (Is she new and hopeful, or experienced and jaded?  Is she financially desperate for a better life?  Is she a status climber looking for a facilitator?)  Is there chemistry and "true love" at first sight from this?  Hell, maybe ... I think it is more rare than it used to be.

[JayH]

Good post Rivardco- total real situation and I can confirm many comments here.It is only when you are actually there and dealing with real life that will help your cause.
The relationship of agencies to the big sites is an interesting one.
The other point you made that should be noted-- the girls have seen and heard it all-- some have been used in a most callous and hurtfull way--it is the other side of the scam coin and there is nothing nice about it.

[ghost of moon goddess]

There is one company that is worthy of a special mention.  www.FHDating.com  This guy and his company are different...   He is from Portugal, but married a woman from Poltava. They live here happily and have a baby.   He runs an apartment rental company, travel agency and support service AND a selective marriage agency www.FHDating.com   HE IS DIFFERENT.  You will not see his best girls on the site.  Why? ...

Maybe the answer to your question can be found on Complaints Board, on which some  FHD..'s Customers kindly posted their "testimonials" ?!   

http://www.complaintsboard.com/bycompany/for-him-dating-a416489.html

[Muzh]

I pissed off some people here because I said the AFA tour and photo sessions and PR activity in a small town embarrassed me.  Some people got their feelings hurt / or want to say I am the same thing as the short old guy with the camera crew - FINE - NO BIGGEY

I have pissed others off ... Others have opposed / laughed at the idea that I would stay concentrate on one woman for 70% of my trip - COOL - but, if I want to waste my time, it is my time to waste.

And, I have pissed others off with a cocky attitude ... suggesting that I have enough experience with women not to trip on my pecker (although I admit I did not use it over the last 14 days LOL).

I have (reluctantly) followed this and other threads because I have no life. Er, was curious of all this stories. 
 
I hate to disappoint you but I didn't see anyone being pissed at you for your "escapades." What I did notice was the majority of the guys really don't like to be bullshitted and they let you know in no uncertain terms. For example, a guy in the business is not making any money on you and offers to help you and even spend money on you. That story is very hard to swallow. I believe it was MissA who was trying to get more info from you because she found some of your stories so far-fetched she forced to wear my boots.
 
I hope that clears some misunderstandings.

[IAmZon]

For example, a guy in the business is not making any money on you and offers to help you and even spend money on you. That story is very hard to swallow. I believe it was MissA who was trying to get more info from you because she found some of your stories so far-fetched she forced to wear my boots.

Believe what you want.  I am just reporting my experience.  I paid some guy over $1000 for a tour and I used 3 days.  I have not paid this other guy a penny.   Some service vendors have "processed me".  Others  have shown more care. 

http://www.complaintsboard.com/bycompany/for-him-dating-a416489.html

People that make money in the MOB industry have many translators and web people and it is sort of a clusterF$% of "He Said / She Said"  It is impossible to sort out the truth, the lies, and how is on a vendetta. 

My post shows my experience only.  I have not profit motive, so do not question my motives.   

ADULTS SHOULD READ THIS AND OTHER MATERIAL AND MAKE UP THERE OWN MIND

[ML]

Tim, that was a good post of yours where you tell about the situation with agencies, etc.

However, you and everyone else could have avoided all that BS by simply following the path laid out in my Pursuing FSUW 101 pinned to the top  of this Starting section.

In that path, you have zero interaction with agency owners, those who are writing letters for the women, etc.  You only write and talk directly with the women who post their profiles on the dating/match sites.

[IAmZon]

In that path, you have zero interaction with agency owners, those who are writing letters for the women, etc.  You only write and talk directly with the women who post their profiles on the dating/match sites.

It aint that simple.   The factories morph into individual profiles and aliases too.  And, then there are the true independents. 

I know you can find people on language exchange boards, social networking ... but as soon as these girls are active on the internet independently?  The auction and temptation begins

[Ranetka]

It aint that simple.   The factories morph into individual profiles and aliases too.  And, then there are the true independents. 

I know you can find people on language exchange boards, social networking ... but as soon as these girls are active on the internet independently?  The auction and temptation begins

Do you mind re-phrasing this please  if you could. I do not get what you mean at all.

[ML]

It aint that simple.   The factories morph into individual profiles and aliases too.  And, then there are the true independents. 

I know you can find people on language exchange boards, social networking ... but as soon as these girls are active on the internet independently?  The auction and temptation begins

Yes, it is just that simple as I lay out in Pursuing FSUW 101.

I have done it. There are  none of the problems and situations you allude to.

[calmissile]

Rivardco,

I have read your posts daily since you started.  I kept out of the fray because I did not want to rain on your parade.  As ML pointed out, you could have chosen a safer, more proven path, but we are all individuals and want to use our own instincts.  It's also difficult to evaluate the credibility of arm chair advisors that have not been in the dating scene or in country for years.  Nevertheless, you had an experience that allowed you to learn a little about the culture of Ukraine and in particular, a lot about how the agencies and internet portals work.  I can confirm most of what you say about the interaction between the 'feeder' agencies and the major portals they feed into.  It was not until I had spent quite a bit of money on the dating sites and befriended a woman that actually worked for one, that I also learned the inside story on how they operate.  That portion of your posts should be educational for anyone not yet scammed by the paid dating sites.

After a year or so of learning all this the hard way, my conclusion is to use only the (nearly free) dating sites and communicate with the women directly.  I also quit communicating with most women that know no English.  The hassle and pain that I went through with continual misunderstandings was just not worth it.  I also concluded that a women that is serious about immigrating to the US should have made some effort on her own to learn a little English.  If she has a computer, there are many ways she can do so on line without having to take expensive tutoring lessons.

The list of free dating sites that are posted on this forum is an excellent reference for men to use to make contact with women that are not registered with the MOB dating sites.

Since I will be coming to Ukraine for the 3rd time this summer for 2-3 months, I was interested in your experience with kicking back and making friends with the locals.  Also, the potential of networking with locals to make new friends and possibly meeting women that might be intersted in me.  You did not cover this aspect of your experience in much detail.  I would be interested to learn if you were able to meet people in public places such as McDonald's, or other places that were friendly enough to develop a friendship and meet their other friends, etc.?

Since I already have more dates lined up in each city (via email and Skype) than I can possibly fulfill, I will not have a need to use any marriage agencies.  Your comments about the agency women's point of view and their prior experiences explains a lot about why the agencies might not have many women that are serious about looking for a foreign husband.  I can understand why they may become jaded after a while.

If you have time, please write a little about the approach you found successful in meeting the locals and establishing a friendship.

Bear in mind that this trip is not a wife hunting trip.  It is rather an extended vacation to once again enjoy the culture and people of Ukraine.  If I find someone with mutual chemistry fine, if not that is fine also.  There have been several TV programs on the Military History Channel recently about the tank battles fought in Ukraine and I would like to visit some of these sites while I am there.

[ML]

There have been several TV programs on the Military History Channel recently about the tank battles fought in Ukraine and I would like to visit some of these sites while I am there.

In Russia, rather than Ukraine,  but I highly  recommend the 'based on actual story' movie "Enemy at the Gates."  The ultimate cat and mouse game between two snipers.

And even a very sensual sex scene between Vasily and the young woman (Rachel Weisz).  If you dream of associating with an 'aggressive' FSUW, you will like her. 

The main Soviet character, Vasily Zaitsev (Zaytsev) was real, and he said several times in the film that his dream after the war was to work in a factory.

From:  Wikipedia:  During the Battle of Stalingrad he killed 225 soldiers and officers of the Wehrmacht and other Axis armies, including 11 enemy snipers. February 22, 1943, Zaytsev was awarded the title Hero of the Soviet Union.  After the war, Zaytsev settled in Kiev, where he studied at a textile university before he obtained employment as engineer. He rose to become the director of a textile factory in Kiev, and remained in that city until he died in 1991 at the age of 76, just 10 days before the final dissolution of the Soviet Union.

See some teaser clips here.



http://www.metacafe.com/watch/284172/rachel_weisz_sex_scene_from_enemy_at_the_gates/

[IAmZon]

If you have time, please write a little about the approach you found successful in meeting the locals and establishing a friendship.

Good on you for using internet to develop relationships in advance!  This is your third extended trip, so you have a little language, right?  I have VERY VERY little.  I just started studying Russian 4 weeks ago.  I am a catastrophy as a Russian speaker, but I bump around. 

Locals are cold until they see you a few times.   I have not climbed the social later here as I did in the DR and Colombia. It does seem like a closed system here.  I don't get the impression that the wealthy are the slightly interested in a foreigner.  i was surprised by the negative impressions have with foriegners dating Urkainian women?!?!?!?  I was not prepared for that.   

I met people easily in clubs, but I developed a personality for that.  About 3 weeks ago, I was in a bar and I was on my way to getting drunk, dancing, and staying out late.  I took a shot of vodka.  Then a light went off in my head and said NO.  I followed it up with a water and in two hours I was sober.  That is the last of me and clubs for a while, maybe ever?

Regular people?  It is hit and miss - sometimes they are cold, other times they are completely genuine and kind

Just be open and happy and you will attract those type of people

[noelscot]

If you have time, please write a little about the approach you found successful in meeting the locals and establishing a friendship.

I'm guilty of doing what I'm about to mention, so I live in a house of glass, too. The word friend has been stretched to where it almost means nothing. A real friend is someone who'll take a bullet for you. (Otherwise they are just random background people.) In the main, a friend will sacrifice for you and you will sacrifice for them.  These sort of human relationships are hardly ever developed in a short amount of time.


I'm suggesting that the word friend loses all of its power if we misuse it. That is all.


P.S.


If you have a true friend in this world, count yourself lucky.

[ML]

In short, the old saying:

A friend in need is a friend in deed