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Author Topic: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers  (Read 41509 times)

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lordtiberius

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #150 on: December 20, 2014, 04:28:33 PM »

Stop cursing at Muzh, he is just having fun!   In addition, given the avatar it is not becoming!


Fathertime!

Stop telling me what to do authoritarian!

Offline fathertime

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #151 on: December 20, 2014, 05:07:51 PM »
Stop telling me what to do authoritarian!


Stop telling me what to stop telling you what to do, fussy-boy!  :crackwhip:


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline AkMike

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #152 on: December 21, 2014, 01:06:11 PM »
Arkadiy Babchenko, a Russian reporter who participated in the Russia-Chechen wars of the 1990s: "Ukraine will never forgive us for what we are doing now. We should realize that if Putin orders full attack, Ukraine will fight to the death, and our casualties will be sky-high. We used to think that Ukrainians and us can live like two brother nations, but it's not the case now. They are drifting away from us for decades, or for centuries, or forever."

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #153 on: December 21, 2014, 01:12:04 PM »
Arkadiy Babchenko, a Russian reporter who participated in the Russia-Chechen wars of the 1990s: "Ukraine will never forgive us for what we are doing now. We should realize that if Putin orders full attack, Ukraine will fight to the death, and our casualties will be sky-high. We used to think that Ukrainians and us can live like two brother nations, but it's not the case now. They are drifting away from us for decades, or for centuries, or forever."


An excellent post Mike, thanks for sharing.  I think this is the number one reason why Putler has not ordered a full-scale invasion of Ukraine.  He realizes how high the casualties will be and how soon Russian public opinion could change against him.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #154 on: December 21, 2014, 01:35:15 PM »
To add to the above there are now NATO soldiers in country in various consulting/training capacities. The Kremlin cannot afford to launch a full scale invasion and possibly or inadvertently cause NATO casualties.

The window/option for a Russian military takeover of Ukraine is slowly/inexorably closing. In the end we might see a new East/West Berlin or Nicosia, Cyprus type scenario where a militarily occupied separation zone exists between a European allied Ukraine and Russian held Ukraine.

Brass
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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #155 on: December 21, 2014, 01:43:37 PM »
To add to the above there are now NATO soldiers in country in various consulting/training capacities. The Kremlin cannot afford to launch a full scale invasion and possibly or inadvertently cause NATO casualties.

Can you provide any links about this?  Thanks.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #156 on: December 21, 2014, 01:52:53 PM »
Can you provide any links about this?  Thanks.

Absolutely...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17720.msg382849#msg382849

...Nicholson said the help will include training from military police who arrived in Ukraine on Monday....

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/12/08/canada-signs-deal-to-help-ukraine-strengthen-security-against-russia

Brass
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #157 on: December 21, 2014, 02:00:56 PM »
Absolutely...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17720.msg382849#msg382849

...Nicholson said the help will include training from military police who arrived in Ukraine on Monday....

http://www.torontosun.com/2014/12/08/canada-signs-deal-to-help-ukraine-strengthen-security-against-russia

Brass

Excellent.  And while I am embarrassed at the lack of leadership on the part of the US government on this issue, I agree that "it's about bloody time".

Offline AkMike

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #158 on: December 21, 2014, 02:02:34 PM »
Brass, the Toronto Sun link doesn't work.

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #159 on: December 21, 2014, 02:03:53 PM »
Brass, the Toronto Sun link doesn't work.

Are you still over in Ukraine, Mike?  It's working fine here in the US.

Monday, December 08, 2014 02:42 PM EST 
OTTAWA - Two Canadian CF-18 Hornets based in Lithuania intercepted three Russian military aircraft inside the republic's airspace on Sunday.

The Canadian Hornets shadowed two Russian transport aircraft and one bomber training aircraft for more than an hour.

"This is just further proof that we are standing with Ukraine against Russian aggression," said James Bezan, parliamentary secretary for Defence Minister Rob Nicholson, in the House of Commons on Monday.

The Conservative government also said it will provide more help for Ukraine's beleaguered military, including sending Canadian soldiers to train Ukrainian troops as they continue to battle Russian-backed rebels.

At a news conference in Kiev on Monday, Nicholson said the stepped-up aid is intended to provide "capacity building" for the Ukrainian military.

Canada will provide military and medical training to help Ukrainian forces protect the country against Russian aggression.

Nicholson said the help will include training from military police who arrived in Ukraine on Monday.

"We have a solid foundation of training and capacity building which has taken place for many years," Nicholson told reporters. "The government of Canada has taken concrete steps to assist Ukraine."

NDP foreign affairs critic Helene Laverdiere said her party supports training Ukrainian troops, but would oppose deploying Canadian troops for combat.

"It's essential, however, to put pressure on (Russian President Vladimir) Putin to respect Ukraine's territorial sovereignty," Laverdiere said. "We must work with our allies."

Until now, Canada's military aid to Ukraine has focused on providing "non-combat" support, including winter clothing, night-vision goggles and radio kits.

Monday's announcement is certain to annoy the Russians, who have faced repeated criticism from the government of Prime Minister Stephen Harper for sending soldiers and weapons to assist the rebels.

At the G20 meeting in Brisbane, Australia, last month, Harper shook Putin's hand reluctantly and told the Russian president "to get out of Ukraine."

Russia illegally occupied and annexed Crimea in March. Weeks later, armed separatists -- assisted and, in some cases, led by Russian intelligence officers -- began seizing government buildings in the eastern Ukrainian regions of Donetsk and Luhansk."
 

« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 02:10:44 PM by AC »

Offline AkMike

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #160 on: December 21, 2014, 02:06:00 PM »
Yeah I'm here in UA. I get a blank page with the Sun's logo at the top.

 Bummer!

 Edit to add; I've never seen so many UA flags flying here as I have seen during this trip. Evenb last spring during the Crimean theft there weren't this many. Everywhere too. Cars, homes  you name it!
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 02:08:33 PM by AkMike »

Offline AkMike

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #161 on: December 21, 2014, 02:09:58 PM »
Spasibi or Dyakuyu AC
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 02:32:59 PM by AkMike »

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #162 on: December 21, 2014, 02:25:26 PM »
..."NDP foreign affairs critic Helene Laverdiere said her party supports training Ukrainian troops, but would oppose deploying Canadian troops for combat."...

However did add that plans to send a reinforced battle group to Eastern Ukraine for their winter vacation would be ok with the official opposition... :P

Brass
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Offline mendeleyev

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #163 on: December 21, 2014, 03:43:56 PM »
I seldom defend Obama, but in this case he has wisely not allowed the Russians to use US presence as a rallying cry back in Russia. The USA has used back channels, and assistance from other NATO nations, to show Putin a European presence. So far, that is probably the wisest course.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

lordtiberius

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #164 on: December 21, 2014, 04:33:57 PM »
 :ROFL:

That is actually hilarious if there weren't all these dead bodies around.  Not even Muzh defends Obama on Ukraine.  Why do you?

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #165 on: December 21, 2014, 04:43:41 PM »
I seldom defend Obama, but in this case he has wisely not allowed the Russians to use US presence as a rallying cry back in Russia. The USA has used back channels, and assistance from other NATO nations, to show Putin a European presence. So far, that is probably the wisest course.

Good point, Mendy. I have a suspicion that's why Moscow has started linking Ottawa to Washington...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg384312#msg384312

...Before you know it the Kremlin will be reporting US soldiers in Canadian uniforms on the ground in Ukraine.

Brass
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

Offline JayH

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #166 on: December 21, 2014, 05:00:58 PM »
I seldom defend Obama, but in this case he has wisely not allowed the Russians to use US presence as a rallying cry back in Russia. The USA has used back channels, and assistance from other NATO nations, to show Putin a European presence. So far, that is probably the wisest course.

That is the key point that must be understood. The balance for the west was not to give cause to the "provocation" accusation by Russia to justify a planned wider invasion.
Not giving the provocation for the Russians escalating the invasion to a more overtly aggressive situation is what the Ukrainians have sought to do at every stage-- the priority being to try and minimise the damage is in retrospect the smart thing to do. Preventing all of Ukraine from being a war zone has at this stage been prevented.
To much overt western assistance ( short of 110% involvement) would have seen Russia use that as an excuse to invade.
While help is coming to slow for many( me included)it is at least trickling through-- and have others have pointed out that help may be just enough to prevent wider Russian aggression.
For me-- the key point when I will declare Ukraine capable of winning ( ie pushing Russia out of Ukrainian territory) is when they are given the means to attack from the air . The west( ie US) has the capability to render a lot of Russian systems useless by electronic means-that would change the balance in Ukraine's favour.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #167 on: December 21, 2014, 05:09:28 PM »
Good point, Mendy. I have a suspicion that's why Moscow has started linking Ottawa to Washington...

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17542.msg384312#msg384312

...Before you know it the Kremlin will be reporting US soldiers in Canadian uniforms on the ground in Ukraine.

Brass

Harper has more stones than the American President.  That statement belittles the independence and courage Canada has demonstrated compared to policy of inconsequence.

lordtiberius

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #168 on: December 21, 2014, 05:11:24 PM »
That is the key point that must be understood. The balance for the west was not to give cause to the "provocation" accusation by Russia to justify a planned wider invasion.
Not giving the provocation for the Russians escalating the invasion to a more overtly aggressive situation is what the Ukrainians have sought to do at every stage-- the priority being to try and minimise the damage is in retrospect the smart thing to do. Preventing all of Ukraine from being a war zone has at this stage been prevented.
To much overt western assistance ( short of 110% involvement) would have seen Russia use that as an excuse to invade.
While help is coming to slow for many( me included)it is at least trickling through-- and have others have pointed out that help may be just enough to prevent wider Russian aggression.
For me-- the key point when I will declare Ukraine capable of winning ( ie pushing Russia out of Ukrainian territory) is when they are given the means to attack from the air . The west( ie US) has the capability to render a lot of Russian systems useless by electronic means-that would change the balance in Ukraine's favour.

Give me a break.

US-UK had a security agreement with Ukraine.  They reneged.  Now they do it on the cheap and you are ok with it?

And you advise the Ukrainian government . . .really?

Offline JayH

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #169 on: December 21, 2014, 05:20:46 PM »
Give me a break.

US-UK had a security agreement with Ukraine.  They reneged.  Now they do it on the cheap and you are ok with it?

And you advise the Ukrainian government . . .really?

OK LT-- really-- how silly are you? Do you think it would be better to have all of Ukraine decimated by all out Russian invasion?
Would that make you happy?
Dislodging them from 1000kms further west than where they are now would have been well nigh impossible.
Your warped view of US politics fails to recognise that virtually any leader in the US would be facing a hostile opposition to committing troops to another arena -- so explain how that could have ever happened quickly?
Come to think of it-- don't bother.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

Offline AC

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #170 on: December 21, 2014, 05:25:04 PM »
I seldom defend Obama, but in this case he has wisely not allowed the Russians to use US presence as a rallying cry back in Russia. The USA has used back channels, and assistance from other NATO nations, to show Putin a European presence. So far, that is probably the wisest course.

Hmmmm.  This statement seems to be crafted more for diplomacy then reality.  Are you by chance in Russia right now?  I get the feeling if you are that it might be affecting your objectivity.

lordtiberius

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #171 on: December 21, 2014, 07:39:31 PM »
Come to think of it-- don't bother.

I am sure the arrogance serves you well in Poroshenko's government.  It must be difficult to walk around life knowing everything all the time and never ever be wrong.  It must make any self reflection not only impossible but unnecessary.

OK LT-- really-- how silly are you? Do you think it would be better to have all of Ukraine decimated by all out Russian invasion?

If Russian were really capable of such an act, don't you think they would have already done it by now?  And where in my statements do you conclude that is what I wanted?  If you would bother to read my posts, you would know that a US-UK intervention or a show of force or credible commitment would have precluded the little Green Men adventure.

Would that make you happy?

[Yawn.]


Dislodging them from 1000kms further west than where they are now would have been well nigh impossible.

So now you are Erwin Rommel?  Regale us in your military experience minister . . .

Your warped view of US politics fails to recognise that virtually any leader in the US would be facing a hostile opposition to committing troops to another arena -- so explain how that could have ever happened quickly?

"They know so much about what isn't true."  - Ron Reagan on liberals and LT on Minister JayH . . .

You don't know anything about my country, much less about me or my politics.  But I can think of at least 43 Presidents (42 excluding Carter) that could have handled this situation better than the current American president.

You hate America.  Yet you otter clap when Barack gives Ukraine crumbs but object when reasonable people and even unreasonable people like Muzh agree that the Obama response to this crisis has been unacceptable.   It would be hilarious if there weren't heaps and stacks of bodies on both sides.  I hate these Russian fascists but I don't want to see them die.  Real US diplomacy could have saved their lives.  WHERE WAS/IS IT?

You are defending the Secretary of State John Kerry,  Maria Harp, Victoria Nuland, Ambassador Geoff Pyatt and Jen Psaki.  EVERYONE AGREES.  Doll, Muzh, FT, and AC that these are THE WORST people to make peace.  Every where they go, they make war - Egypt, Libya, Syria - the whole world is on fire and you are defending this team smarty nincompoops.

I don't know if you are stupid because of some psychological defect or just not smart.  But either way, you're wrong and everyone else is right.  Not because I say so but because the facts say so.  Own it.

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #172 on: December 21, 2014, 08:12:04 PM »
I am sure the arrogance serves you well in Poroshenko's government.  It must be difficult to walk around life knowing everything all the time and never ever be wrong.  It must make any self reflection not only impossible but unnecessary.

If Russian were really capable of such an act, don't you think they would have already done it by now?  And where in my statements do you conclude that is what I wanted?  If you would bother to read my posts, you would know that a US-UK intervention or a show of force or credible commitment would have precluded the little Green Men adventure.

[Yawn.]


So now you are Erwin Rommel?  Regale us in your military experience minister . . .

"They know so much about what isn't true."  - Ron Reagan on liberals and LT on Minister JayH . . .

You don't know anything about my country, much less about me or my politics.  But I can think of at least 43 Presidents (42 excluding Carter) that could have handled this situation better than the current American president.

You hate America.  Yet you otter clap when Barack gives Ukraine crumbs but object when reasonable people and even unreasonable people like Muzh agree that the Obama response to this crisis has been unacceptable.   It would be hilarious if there weren't heaps and stacks of bodies on both sides.  I hate these Russian fascists but I don't want to see them die.  Real US diplomacy could have saved their lives.  WHERE WAS/IS IT?

You are defending the Secretary of State John Kerry,  Maria Harp, Victoria Nuland, Ambassador Geoff Pyatt and Jen Psaki.  EVERYONE AGREES.  Doll, Muzh, FT, and AC that these are THE WORST people to make peace.  Every where they go, they make war - Egypt, Libya, Syria - the whole world is on fire and you are defending this team smarty nincompoops.

I don't know if you are stupid because of some psychological defect or just not smart.  But either way, you're wrong and everyone else is right.  Not because I say so but because the facts say so.  Own it.

LT-- you write like so many of the great unwashed think-- "they" ought do this or that   "they "should  fix this  '"they" have no idea !!
Someone has to make decisions  -that has great responsibility not to go off half cocked-especially in a situation like Ukraine is and was in.
It is totally unrealistic to expect now--not now and not some theoretical position--to expect the western governments to risk escalating the situation. You extend that to say that the west is afraid of Putin and Russia-- that is clearly wrong.
It is vastly different being an internet warrior than being in the drivers seat-- being the "they" requires an ability to make the best compromises AT THE TIME.
I am guessing you have not been a 'they" too often in your life.  :)

Lt--I am not interested in making this thread about me( you attribute numerous beliefs/comments  to me that are not factual -- but I have even less desire to make the thread about you!!

FWIW-- several times you have now disclosed information on open forum that was given to you in a private pm--it unfortunately reflects extremely poorly on you ( that is before any comment on the accuracy is made) .
So LT-- all in all-- go play with the Kremlin trolls and keep yours self amused that way.
SLAVA UKRAYINI  ! HEROYAM SLAVA!!!!
Слава Украине! Слава героям слава!Слава Україні! Слава героям!
 translated as: Glory to Ukraine! Glory to the heroes!!!  is a Ukrainian greeting slogan being used now all over Ukraine to signify support for a free independent Ukraine

lordtiberius

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #173 on: December 21, 2014, 08:46:05 PM »
LT-- you write like so many of the great unwashed think-- "they" ought do this or that   "they "should  fix this  '"they" have no idea !!
Someone has to make decisions  -that has great responsibility not to go off half cocked-especially in a situation like Ukraine is and was in.
It is totally unrealistic to expect now--not now and not some theoretical position--to expect the western governments to risk escalating the situation. You extend that to say that the west is afraid of Putin and Russia-- that is clearly wrong.
It is vastly different being an internet warrior than being in the drivers seat-- being the "they" requires an ability to make the best compromises AT THE TIME.
I am guessing you have not been a 'they" too often in your life.  :)

Lt--I am not interested in making this thread about me( you attribute numerous beliefs/comments  to me that are not factual -- but I have even less desire to make the thread about you!!

FWIW-- several times you have now disclosed information on open forum that was given to you in a private pm--it unfortunately reflects extremely poorly on you ( that is before any comment on the accuracy is made) .
So LT-- all in all-- go play with the Kremlin trolls and keep yours self amused that way.

International man of mystery,

I have not talked to you via PM in YEARS.  So what confidences could I have violated.  You sound like a sissy when you say such things.

That you joined the Poroshenko government as some kind of advisor I found out form other people - not you.  I also found out from these same sources that you told others that you are manipulating me and and that you are false friend.

Let me make this so simple a decade long unmarried wife hunter from Australia can understand it.  You defended the Obama Administration's handling of the Ukraine crisis.  I didn't.  You point to the imaginary bodies of those not killed as proof of your success.  I point to the real bodies on both sides.  You don't seem to care about holding leaders accountable for their decisions.  How very Euromaidan of you.

Now, you make up some BS straw man argument about what I would have done or preferred like you actually took the time to understand my point of view when it is completely OBVIOUS to every one here that you cannot conceive a world beyond your 5 meter bubble.

Did they make you Minister of Gallantry of Ukraine?

I hope Ukraine is not paying you because I am confident your advice to that government like your advice here is worthless.

And obtw, if you are sincere about your desire not make this thread about you, then do us all a favor, stick to the topic or not talk.

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Re: Why Ukrainians and Russians will never be Brothers
« Reply #174 on: December 21, 2014, 08:53:00 PM »
LT-- you write like so many of the great unwashed think-- "they" ought do this or that   "they "should  fix this  '"they" have no idea !!
Someone has to make decisions  -that has great responsibility not to go off half cocked-especially in a situation like Ukraine is and was in.
It is totally unrealistic to expect now--not now and not some theoretical position--to expect the western governments to risk escalating the situation. You extend that to say that the west is afraid of Putin and Russia-- that is clearly wrong.
It is vastly different being an internet warrior than being in the drivers seat-- being the "they" requires an ability to make the best compromises AT THE TIME.
I am guessing you have not been a 'they" too often in your life.  :)

Lt--I am not interested in making this thread about me( you attribute numerous beliefs/comments  to me that are not factual -- but I have even less desire to make the thread about you!!

FWIW-- several times you have now disclosed information on open forum that was given to you in a private pm--it unfortunately reflects extremely poorly on you ( that is before any comment on the accuracy is made) .
So LT-- all in all-- go play with the Kremlin trolls and keep yours self amused that way.


Jay, I don't see anywhere in his post where LT says that there ought to be US boots on the ground in Ukraine.  Yet George Soros a very smart man and a big-time left-winger says that Ukraine is far more important than killing ISIS cockroaches in the Middle East, and yet the USA has done so little to help Ukraine; meanwhile there are US boots on the ground in Iraq again.

I see no reason whatsoever why the USA has not yet given Ukraine the weapons which Ukraine has asked for time and again.  They need tank killer weapons and they need adequate air defense systems.  Who cares if Putin claims that the USA is trying to control Ukraine; he's going to say it anyways.  While of course I hope that Mendeleyev is correct that Obama has been wise to work behind the scenes, history shows otherwise.

I agree with LT that if we had a different administration in power in DC that Crimea may have never happened, and for sure E. Ukraine would not have happened.  Putin has been bluffing all along and laughing to himself knowing that Obama was one of the weakest administrations ever.

Thankfully economic sanctions have been doing a number on his economy and a big part of that has been the Saudi's keeping OPEC oil prices low because they don't want to lose market share to US producers using fracking technologies.  Obama has nothing to do with that; he's just lucky that it turned out that way.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2014, 08:55:39 PM by AC »

 

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