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Author Topic: Parables to describe FSU countries  (Read 47437 times)

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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #150 on: April 18, 2015, 10:54:24 PM »
Ah, yeah you are getting involved in yet another pointless political discussion.

Geez, he's woken up - four days later!   :welcome: back, Rip!  I've pretty much kept out of this one, in case you hadn't noticed.  It's far too entertaining seeing various posters try to shoot each other down.

For the Umpteenth time, most Americans could give one wit how our politics are perceived from an outside perspective. We don't care what you think.

Make up your mind.  To those of us who speak proper English, those statements contradict each other.

Your thought has no bearing  ;D

Then why bother responding if it's of such little consequence?

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #151 on: April 18, 2015, 11:11:08 PM »
Geez, he's woken up - four days later!   :welcome: back, Rip!  I've pretty much kept out of this one, in case you hadn't noticed.  It's far too entertaining seeing various posters try to shoot each other down.

Thank you! It's always nice to be missed. I've kept so far out of this one, I had read nothing but the first page and now thanks to you, read this one. The political masturbates bore me now. For some reason a forum on FSUW isn't where I seek my political titillation.

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Make up your mind.  To those of us who speak proper English, those statements contradict each other.

Your English isn't proper American English and like our politics, we don't care what you think. Ask an American if they understood what I said.

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Then why bother responding if it's of such little consequence?

I'm just bored and enjoy nothing more than poking you with a stick  :D

Offline Anathema

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #152 on: April 18, 2015, 11:14:08 PM »
Everyone understood you perfectly fine.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #153 on: April 18, 2015, 11:17:40 PM »
The political masturbates bore me now. For some reason a forum on FSUW isn't where I seek my political titillation.

Nice expression!  I agree.

Your English isn't proper American English and like our politics, we don't care what you think. Ask an American if they understood what I said.

I'm sooooo hurt!  :'(  Weird, though, that American posters have made exactly the same observation in the past.

I'm just bored and enjoy nothing more than poking you with a stick  :D

Ditto!

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #154 on: April 18, 2015, 11:20:18 PM »
Ask an American if they understood what I said.

Everyone understood you perfectly fine.

Wrong answer.  Some (even most) "Americans" aren't "Everyone."

Offline Anathema

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #155 on: April 18, 2015, 11:39:04 PM »
Everyone that speaks English understood him fine.







« Last Edit: April 18, 2015, 11:40:23 PM by AnonMod »

Offline msmobyone

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #156 on: April 19, 2015, 02:41:41 AM »
'Funny' but certain posters claim they read / speak  'English' and demonstrate otherwise  ;)
Please excuse the Curmudgeon in my posts ..he will be cured by being reunited with his loved one ;)

Offline Muzh

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #157 on: April 19, 2015, 11:48:22 AM »
A general Oh MY GOD!!!
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #158 on: April 19, 2015, 11:59:31 AM »

I disagree.  First of all, I never have any idea of what religion a business owner has when I go into their establishments.   It is of no concern for me.  I am only interested in the service they are performing.  If a gay wedding wants a cake they don't go around to bakeries asking if they are Christians to make sure it's ok to spend money there.


If they cannot perform the service, for everyone, they shouldn't be in business.  It's ok if they don't want to be in business because they don't want to serve particular groups.  They just don't need to be in business.   


To say they will perform a service for some people, but not others is discrimination.  I don't know how you can say otherwise. 


You examples of muslims serving pork and alcohol do not make sense to me.  I doubt that would be a service they offer to begin with.  Now, if they did offer that service, but only to fellow muslims, then that would be discrimination.

I haven't gotten my head around this issue yet but I want to ask you a question based on your statement here: I understand the LGBT claiming discrimination based on sexuality, I don't agree with it in that it isn't in most places a "protected class". But, I understand it. Now, the local KKK /Nazi Klavern is hosting a wedding of it's members. They wish to have BBQ rib dinners catered from Willie's Ribs, the local black owned BBQ restaurant. Should the restaurant be forced legally to cater the affair? If not, why not?

Offline Boethius

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #159 on: April 19, 2015, 12:01:50 PM »
I think the KKK asking to have a black joint cater their affair is silly, unless they wish to be ingesting a lot of spit in their food.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #160 on: April 19, 2015, 12:07:36 PM »
I think the KKK asking to have a black joint cater their affair is silly, unless they wish to be ingesting a lot of spit in their food.

I disagree, it's not silly. Willie's could be sued for serving unsanitary spitty food. But, you're avoiding the question. Should someone be forced legally to serve someone that they have moral and or religious objection to? Passing laws to protect LGBT rights has farther reaching complications is my point. Such a law could easily force a black owned restaurant to serve at a KKK rally. Or do you exempt blacks from the law? See my point?

Offline Boethius

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #161 on: April 19, 2015, 12:12:46 PM »
Yes, I don't think businesses should discriminate against anyone who is doing something legal, based on the owner's personal beliefs.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 12:21:46 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #162 on: April 19, 2015, 12:32:51 PM »
I haven't gotten my head around this issue yet but I want to ask you a question based on your statement here: I understand the LGBT claiming discrimination based on sexuality, I don't agree with it in that it isn't in most places a "protected class". But, I understand it. Now, the local KKK /Nazi Klavern is hosting a wedding of it's members. They wish to have BBQ rib dinners catered from Willie's Ribs, the local black owned BBQ restaurant. Should the restaurant be forced legally to cater the affair? If not, why not?



As pointed out earlier, many states have laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation.   Of course, the service providers could use another excuse such as scheduling conflicts when it comes to catering gigs.  The KKK, in your example, isn't a protected group nor a religious one so I don't see it as a valid comparison.


One chooses to be a KKK member while I don't believe one chooses their sexual orientation just like we don't choose the color of our skin.   So if we are to discriminate people based on things they do not choose, where does it end?  For me, that is the crux of this and I do believe this is a slippery slope.  Freedom of religion was to allow us freedom to choose without being discriminated against.  The irony is now that freedom is being used to discriminate against others that live a different lifestyle. 


Of course, besides the possibility of a physical threat to the black person when dealing with a hate group.  ;D
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 01:07:49 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline AC

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #163 on: April 19, 2015, 01:39:46 PM »
LFU:
Kindly point out where I showed hatred toward gays. I've mentioned often that our kids have left the nest. Two of our daughters are married, one is not--perhaps for reasons closer to this topic that you might realize. Show me how I hate her...I'm dying to see your rationale on that one.

That was the heart of my post. I hope that you learned from it.

Again, kindly show me where I wrote, or even hinted, at that.


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Offline AC

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #164 on: April 19, 2015, 01:58:46 PM »
I haven't gotten my head around this issue yet but I want to ask you a question based on your statement here: I understand the LGBT claiming discrimination based on sexuality, I don't agree with it in that it isn't in most places a "protected class". But, I understand it. Now, the local KKK /Nazi Klavern is hosting a wedding of it's members. They wish to have BBQ rib dinners catered from Willie's Ribs, the local black owned BBQ restaurant. Should the restaurant be forced legally to cater the affair? If not, why not?

Exactly and well said.  Some Church's are wrestling with this issue right now.  My Church has taken a novel approach so far, which is that each Pastor can choose or NOT choose to perform these unions.  From my Church's bulletin this am came this timely message:

Offline Muzh

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #165 on: April 19, 2015, 02:04:39 PM »


As pointed out earlier, many states have laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation.   Of course, the service providers could use another excuse such as scheduling conflicts when it comes to catering gigs.  The KKK, in your example, isn't a protected group nor a religious one so I don't see it as a valid comparison.


One chooses to be a KKK member while I don't believe one chooses their sexual orientation just like we don't choose the color of our skin.   So if we are to discriminate people based on things they do not choose, where does it end?  For me, that is the crux of this and I do believe this is a slippery slope.  Freedom of religion was to allow us freedom to choose without being discriminated against.  The irony is now that freedom is being used to discriminate against others that live a different lifestyle. 


Of course, besides the possibility of a physical threat to the black person when dealing with a hate group.  ;D




To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #166 on: April 19, 2015, 02:06:45 PM »
Exactly and well said.  Some Church's are wrestling with this issue right now.  My Church has taken a novel approach so far, which is that each Pastor can choose or NOT choose to perform these unions.  From my Church's bulletin this am came this timely message:


Today's churches would be the first ones to crucify Jesus on his second coming.


Maybe that's why he is still thinking of showing up.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #167 on: April 19, 2015, 06:02:49 PM »


As pointed out earlier, many states have laws against discrimination based on sexual orientation.   Of course, the service providers could use another excuse such as scheduling conflicts when it comes to catering gigs.  The KKK, in your example, isn't a protected group nor a religious one so I don't see it as a valid comparison.

Only a couple of states have designation of LGBT as a protected group. A religious or moral objection is what I mentioned specifically because in my mind they equate to the same thing. Because one has a business open to the public doesn't condemn (legally) them to to go against their moral or religious conviction. If so, that is indeed religious discrimination. It's very slippery and a gross overreach of government authority.

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One chooses to be a KKK member while I don't believe one chooses their sexual orientation just like we don't choose the color of our skin.   So if we are to discriminate people based on things they do not choose, where does it end?  For me, that is the crux of this and I do believe this is a slippery slope.  Freedom of religion was to allow us freedom to choose without being discriminated against.  The irony is now that freedom is being used to discriminate against others that live a different lifestyle. 

The idea that one chooses to be a racist or KKK member or homosexual is subjective and not proven with any empirical data either way. If one is raised within extreme racism, white or black, chances are, they too will be racist. It's environmental conditioning. The same could be said for homosexuality. Thus, in my mind neither would or should reach the status of "protected". If so, many other groups would reach it as well.

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Of course, besides the possibility of a physical threat to the black person when dealing with a hate group.  ;D

That would be against the l;aw and a hate crime. There's nothing to say a fundamentalist Christian couldn't get a physical beating or worse at a Gay wedding, either  ;D

I caution you or anyone jumping on either side of this issue. It's not as cut and dried and some might have you believe

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #168 on: April 19, 2015, 07:01:38 PM »
Only a couple of states have designation of LGBT as a protected group. A religious or moral objection is what I mentioned specifically because in my mind they equate to the same thing. Because one has a business open to the public doesn't condemn (legally) them to to go against their moral or religious conviction. If so, that is indeed religious discrimination. It's very slippery and a gross overreach of government authority.


Yes, only a couple of states has designated LGBT as a protected group, but many have passed laws against sexual orientation discrimination.  If that isn't considered somewhat protected, I don't know what is.


I'm trying to understand your view on this.  So far, it seems you don't mind discrimination if it conflicts with the proprietor's moral and/or religious convictions.  If that is the way you see it, then we are talking Catholics discriminating against Muslims, whites against blacks, men against women and that is ok.  Please note, I am not saying you believe this is ok.  When applying the moral and religous convictions to these types of scenarios, it opens this up to those types of discrimination.  The racist or misogynist will be just as certain in their morals as the religious person. 


This is the slippery slope I speaketh of.  haha

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The idea that one chooses to be a racist or KKK member or homosexual is subjective and not proven with any empirical data either way. If one is raised within extreme racism, white or black, chances are, they too will be racist. It's environmental conditioning. The same could be said for homosexuality. Thus, in my mind neither would or should reach the status of "protected". If so, many other groups would reach it as well.


I guess that comes down one of the big sticking points on this topic.  If you see sexual orientation as a choice, then I can see why you would think it shouldn't be protected.  I honestly don't nor couldn't see it that way.  The idea that I could learn to be attracted to men is, well, kind of disturbing. 


A racist can change their convictions.  Many have, just go to prison and see all the religious people that found Jesus.   :P   I don't see that happening for a gay person.  Homosexuality has been around for a very long time which also leads me to believe this is a thing of nature instead of a learned response. 



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That would be against the l;aw and a hate crime. There's nothing to say a fundamentalist Christian couldn't get a physical beating or worse at a Gay wedding, either  ;D


hah  Sure, anything is possible.   Safety should always win in any case.  I suspect the Christians would be more afraid of catching the gay disease than being beat up.   :D



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I caution you or anyone jumping on either side of this issue. It's not as cut and dried and some might have you believe


It's pretty cut and dry for me.  Owning and operating a business isn't something you or I am entitled too.  We need to follow the local and federal laws.  If we can't then we can't operate a business.  A business isn't part of your or my right to practice our chosen religion.  If you can't service the general public without discriminating, you shouldn't be in business.


This is an article I agree with for the most part.


http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-refuse-service-can-a-business-refuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance


It talks about the difference between right and refusal versus discrimination.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 07:16:35 PM by LiveFromUkraine »

Offline Bee Farmer

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #169 on: April 20, 2015, 02:41:05 AM »
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Owning and operating a business isn't something you or I am entitled too. 

In America, it IS a right that all people are entitled to, and is inalienable.  Life, liberty, (freedom to do what you want, limited only that you can't infringe the rights of another), and the pursuit of happiness (enjoying the fruits of your labors).

You also have the right to own property, and to use that property in business how you wish, subject only to not infringing the rights of others.  The rights attached to property come in the form of an allodial title to the land, in the form of a land patent, which is a treaty and contract between the federal government and the landowner, and is the highest evidence of title in America.  No state has a higher title to the land than the actual landowner.

We have forgotten the rights our ancestors fought for in the Revolutionary War.

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #170 on: April 20, 2015, 06:29:06 AM »
In America, it IS a right that all people are entitled to, and is inalienable.  Life, liberty, (freedom to do what you want, limited only that you can't infringe the rights of another), and the pursuit of happiness (enjoying the fruits of your labors).

You also have the right to own property, and to use that property in business how you wish, subject only to not infringing the rights of others.  The rights attached to property come in the form of an allodial title to the land, in the form of a land patent, which is a treaty and contract between the federal government and the landowner, and is the highest evidence of title in America.  No state has a higher title to the land than the actual landowner.

We have forgotten the rights our ancestors fought for in the Revolutionary War.


Traveling makes me happy but that doesn't mean I will be able to get a passport if I broke other laws.  I also like to drive but that also doesn't mean I will be able to get a license if I didn't pass the road test.


You discriminating against others is infringing on their rights to happiness.  No, you are not entitled to own a business if you don't follow the rules.   Nice try taking out one sentence from the whole paragraph, though. 

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #171 on: April 20, 2015, 09:42:18 AM »

Yes, only a couple of states has designated LGBT as a protected group, but many have passed laws against sexual orientation discrimination.  If that isn't considered somewhat protected, I don't know what is.

I disagree, it is not considered somewhat protected if only a couple of states have passed that law. The thrust of those laws in those states are centric to employment EOEC and fair housing. Federal Law states it is illegal to discriminate on the basis of age, race, gender, religion and national origin. No mention of sexual orientation. Personally I detest that Federal supercedes State law but, that is the world we live in. I detest any infringement or government overreach into the personal lives of Americans. You don't see the conflict here LFU?


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I'm trying to understand your view on this.  So far, it seems you don't mind discrimination if it conflicts with the proprietor's moral and/or religious convictions.  If that is the way you see it, then we are talking Catholics discriminating against Muslims, whites against blacks, men against women and that is ok.  Please note, I am not saying you believe this is ok.  When applying the moral and religous convictions to these types of scenarios, it opens this up to those types of discrimination.  The racist or misogynist will be just as certain in their morals as the religious person. 

This is the slippery slope I speaketh of.  haha

I have no position on this or a dog in this fight. As a businessman I welcome all money that is green. As a happily married latent heterosexual and Libertarian I care not what one chooses to do with their sexual or private lives as long as it isn't imposed upon me. That said, I strongly believe I should have the right to choose with whom I'll do business with and not be foisted on me with more government intervention. The law already states age, race, gender, religion and national origin.

Whether one chooses homosexuality isn't the question 'in play". What is in play is rather the government can force one (in this instance) to sell to a specific group. Then the slope is mighty slippery and which are the favored groups? When the law and edict is passed to do so, how long before it is passed to force one to buy from select favored groups?



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I guess that comes down one of the big sticking points on this topic.  If you see sexual orientation as a choice, then I can see why you would think it shouldn't be protected.  I honestly don't nor couldn't see it that way.  The idea that I could learn to be attracted to men is, well, kind of disturbing. 


A racist can change their convictions.  Many have, just go to prison and see all the religious people that found Jesus.   :P   I don't see that happening for a gay person.  Homosexuality has been around for a very long time which also leads me to believe this is a thing of nature instead of a learned response. 

I don't know if homosexuality is a choice or not. I'm not one that can make any kind of judgement on that. I don't choose to not be gay, I'm just not and that's all I know. I just am what I am. I extend that belief to the gay community. They are free to believe what they believe. Most racists, pedophiles and even criminals of many sorts believe in much the same way. Yessir, the slope is a mighty slippery one.



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hah  Sure, anything is possible.   Safety should always win in any case.  I suspect the Christians would be more afraid of catching the gay disease than being beat up.   :D




It's pretty cut and dry for me.  Owning and operating a business isn't something you or I am entitled too.  We need to follow the local and federal laws.  If we can't then we can't operate a business.  A business isn't part of your or my right to practice our chosen religion.  If you can't service the general public without discriminating, you shouldn't be in business.


Actually, IMHO owning and operating a business is something we are entitled to in the "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of happiness" and we should be allowed to do so without government overreach and intervention. The anti discrimination laws from the 60's were written for an entirely different context and reason than what some groups are hoping to apply them today. Attempting to use those laws and force a fundamentalist Christian to cater Gay weddings or events was not the purpose or intent of those laws. Doing so IMHO makes the law a double edged sword.

The value or success of ones business should hinge on the proprietor, the product and the patrons. If one doesn't like the way one conducts their business, accept personal responsibility and leave government out of it. Vote with your feet and pocketbook. All I'm saying  :D



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http://www.legalzoom.com/articles/the-right-to-refuse-service-can-a-business-refuse-service-to-someone-because-of-appearance


It talks about the difference between right and refusal versus discrimination.


There's no answer there. The LGBT community IMHO has brought light on these state laws for publicity more than anything else in an attempt to become a protected group such as Blacks, Chinese or  old Mexican or aging Americans. My point has been from the onset that if government can force Christian baker to bake gay wedding cakes. It can also force Willies Ribs to cater the KKK rally with the same law. Be careful what you ask for. Your business catering to the pedophile community will be next.

Too much government intrusion. That overreach should be retracting instead of expanding. Force business to do with right thing with your pocketbook rather than government intervention

Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #172 on: April 20, 2015, 09:57:45 AM »
FP, I am probably more like you when it comes to government overreach than not.  Thanks for the post, it makes more sense where you are coming from.


In many if not most matters of government interference I would probably agree.  I don't, in this instance, simply because I view this as a "all or nothing" scenario for the reasons I highlighted before.  I do think we will see more changes when it comes to these types of scenarios, whether we consider it right or wrong.


I don't want to rehash my comments again but I do appreciate the dialog.   :D
« Last Edit: April 20, 2015, 09:59:27 AM by LiveFromUkraine »

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #173 on: April 20, 2015, 01:58:54 PM »
FP, I am probably more like you when it comes to government overreach than not.  Thanks for the post, it makes more sense where you are coming from.


In many if not most matters of government interference I would probably agree.  I don't, in this instance, simply because I view this as a "all or nothing" scenario for the reasons I highlighted before.  I do think we will see more changes when it comes to these types of scenarios, whether we consider it right or wrong.


I don't want to rehash my comments again but I do appreciate the dialog.   :D

I understand. I notice a fervor that came literally from nowhere when Indiana's house voted this "almost" very same bill that Clinton enacted while President on a Federal level. Coincidentally, Arkansas had a near duplicate bill on it's house floor at the same time and I think 10 other states had similar bills in committee.

The question is, why? Why would 12 states suddenly find a need to pass a bill in their respective houses that has basically already been covered by a Federal bill signed and enacted by Clinton in 1993? Why the blowback from the LGBT community over Indiana's passage when they celebrated Clinton's passage of the law? Has there been some big surge of anti-gay sentiment that is requiring government intervention? If so, where? Only when connecting the dots does it begin to take a more definitive shape. Someone has an agenda and is attempting to use government overreach to complete it.

Government is much to powerful and intrusive as it is. Enacting or changing any legislation that would move Homosexuals/Transgendered as a group to a protected group more than they receive as individuals has far more reaching implications for everyone IMHO. It is not just as simple as "We should never discriminate against gays on religious or moral objection" simple.

The anti discrimination laws of the 60's were needed very badly and for a completely different set of reasons. Not so much the case now for the LGBT community. What is the agenda? I do not know but, something is afoot

Offline calmissile

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Re: Parables to describe FSU countries
« Reply #174 on: April 20, 2015, 02:46:20 PM »
I understand. I notice a fervor that came literally from nowhere when Indiana's house voted this "almost" very same bill that Clinton enacted while President on a Federal level. Coincidentally, Arkansas had a near duplicate bill on it's house floor at the same time and I think 10 other states had similar bills in committee.

The question is, why? Why would 12 states suddenly find a need to pass a bill in their respective houses that has basically already been covered by a Federal bill signed and enacted by Clinton in 1993? Why the blowback from the LGBT community over Indiana's passage when they celebrated Clinton's passage of the law? Has there been some big surge of anti-gay sentiment that is requiring government intervention? If so, where? Only when connecting the dots does it begin to take a more definitive shape. Someone has an agenda and is attempting to use government overreach to complete it.

Government is much to powerful and intrusive as it is. Enacting or changing any legislation that would move Homosexuals/Transgendered as a group to a protected group more than they receive as individuals has far more reaching implications for everyone IMHO. It is not just as simple as "We should never discriminate against gays on religious or moral objection" simple.

The anti discrimination laws of the 60's were needed very badly and for a completely different set of reasons. Not so much the case now for the LGBT community. What is the agenda? I do not know but, something is afoot

Well written response.  I agree 100%.
Doug (Calmissile)

 

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