The End

[JayH]

bjorncode12

I have not commented much in thread and I have found your story & conclusions and observations very interesting. On the forum Krimster & I have had our differences -- but his observations here were equally interesting -- and I think thought provoking for you.

There is much in your story that I can  relate to .

I do not want to sound critical -- but the incident with your adult son's was entirely predictable .Some will say she should have reacted differently -- but --maybe being more sensitive to her potential feelings would have delayed that interaction until you as a couple were more integrated? That sort of thing could happen to a local lady and get a similar reaction too -- I think !!
Older children should be easier -- but all too often they can be a deal breaker!

The problem with being over 16 and love -- is that life accumulates many complications ! The compromises needed to let love run the show often have unacceptable riders to them -- as you have found.

[mhr7]

I had a suspicion that if I could just man up, be clear and strong with her that I could put her in her place and deal with this, and in fact I am certain this was what she wanted.  But I also realized that I would probably be doing this for this rest of my life, and that just seemed exhausting.

Don't be so sure about this and certainly don't beat yourself up over it. I've had the same thought in relationships with RW and almost every time I "manned up" it backfired completely.  If she's a strong, independent woman who hasn't had a man in her life for a considerable amount of time she won't be very willing to give in. Many, if not most, of these women would rather be single than lose their independence or change in any significant way.

[fathertime]

The problems came from a different angle.  I think Krimster was right when he observed that a russian woman is highly protective of her family, not such much the family of her new foreign spouse, at least not my sons.  Elena saw my sons as a threat.
 

In my opinion, you dodged a bullet, I don't think you realize it yet, and maybe never will.  What would have likely been sacrificed would have been much greater than you may realize.

Fathertime!   

[krimster2]

"probably be doing this for this rest of my life, and that just seemed exhausting."

it is....

[Belvis]

The story seems to be typical. The relationship with this woman was doomed from the start. Well, that's a problem when a woman is beautiful, а man tends to close eyes on other her  fundamental character traits.
Style of Elena's writings tells me she is kind of professional  in communicating with men, and plays emotional games on the edge to be manipulative. Her attitude to money spending was just a final chord though here she was really sincere.

[Boomstick77]

Unfortunately that’s why you embrace evil. Growing up I’ve learned that heroes don’t win in the real world..it’s the villains that do. Hence why I have no friends and why I don’t want any. They are my competition. We’re told that the nice guy gets the girl by being sweet. From what I seen all these nice men coming to the former Soviet Union are get screwed over from these women because they don’t understand the real dynamics and what makes these women tick. The “strong man” to them is the same thing that women seek everywhere on the planet except the difference between western women and FSU women is they need men still. Our culture protects women and they have nothing to lose. An FSU woman has everything to lose in their culture. Our women are in competition with us. FSU women aren’t in competition with their man. They support them and want them to succeed. Our women get jealous of us if we do better then them. An FSU woman would have love in their eyes if something happens good to you because it benefits both of you. In our culture the man in always wrong...an FSU woman that is in love with you will find ways even if your wrong to be right..but trust me...these women are not only drop dad gorgeous...they are incredibly strong in their personality. A good is example is the Disney test...you could show a few Disney movies to a western girl and they would be in tears for the rest of the day...try showing a few to an FSU woman and they will just tell you that it was a good story and go back to the kitchen to start hammering on chicken cutlets... no emotional effect at all. Why is that.. the answer I got was it’s because it’s not real. It’s a fairytale. Fascinating...in our culture the princess marries the prince and they live happily ever after...not in the FSU. The guy they end up with is karlson(most people won’t know who that is unless you been to the FSU). People from the FSU are my favourite though. In my culture I hate when I’m getting gas and some old guy asks me how my day is going and how it’s a beautiful sunny day. In the FSU you talk to a stranger your insane and most likely want something from them. Ask a cashier how’s her day going and she’ll say..it’s my business...what a good laugh that is...my favourite though is how when you get almost to any door and most civilized people will hold the door for you..not FSU people...they let the door slam in everyone’s face...I love it though but it gets me in trouble in Canada because I get used to doing it in the FSU but over here it’s nothing but death stares and I’m somehow a prick. One thing that FSU women found far more attractive in me then my other Canadian competition back in the day when I was searching was FSU women wondered how come I don’t say sorry...they thought that’s what Canadians say when they do or say something wrong...I said that I don’t apologize if I mean something and someone doesn’t like it....they would tell me saying sorry is weak...I was like..dam straight it is...so there you have it lads...

Women in the FSU want a good man which basically means a guy that doesn’t beat them or cheat as far as I’m concerned. When I was first getting to know my wife i said in the introductory phase..I don’t do dishes, I don’t do laundry, I will not cook or any of that girly stuff. She replied..what would be the point of having a wife if they don’t do those things...I said good answer..you want to lose respect fast then do all the mentioned above and watch her long for Vladimir that sits in front of the tv and watches soccer and insults her cooking and says that the soup isn’t salty enough. Sure you can be funny, cool, and act all loving and stuff but never forget who your with. Someone mentioned that a woman is like a car and if you let go of the wheel, the car will go towards the ditch and crash so you always have to be in control. I absolutely agree. I’m in control 24/7 365 days a year. When I’m with my wife if i want her hair a certain way..she does it instantly..certain outfit on that day..she jumps in it..if I’m hungry..yep..she’s in the kitchen. I want to go to the pub late and drink some beers..she gets dressed and comes with me even though she might be tired..so what..I’m not...tough sh*t. The point is that these women love a man that leads. The best compliment you can get from them is “you always get your way”...I just say it’s because I deserve it. I take care of her..she better dam well take care of me in all my ways. I once read something that drew me towards the FSU woman and it was this saying”you better be able to handle an FSU woman or they will wreck your sh*t”. I love that saying because that’s until they meet me...in their culture hitting is still a thing..you can go to the local ATB and see a cashier with a black eye and I say to my wife..looks like that chick pissed off her husband last night. To our culture she would get help..in their culture it’s ignored because it’s their business... I would never hit a woman but a good compliment my brother gave me was that he’d rather take a punch in the face from me then what comes out of my mouth...I can be vile. Women’s highest stimuli isn’t from violence..it’s through emotion.. something I know how to bulldoze through. If your a man that walks away from an arguemet then to a FSU woman means your weak...know how to put her in her place and she’ll learn respect fast and love you more for it. I was watching this Turkish serial with my wife called mama and every person hates the villain character in it...I tended to enjoy his role. My wife couldn’t understand how I could like such an evil character. He has destroyed his wife’s self esteem and treats her like garbage. I said sure he’s a little over the top...he doesn’t have to hit a woman to get the same results. My wife then looked at me and said I’m glad your not like that...I laughed and said..how do you know I’m not..then she snuggled up to my chest and said..because...I said most girls that keep going back to men like that don’t realize they are with a garbage man because he’s leveled their self esteem..was I correct..absolutely. Now don’t get me wrong...I’m incredible good to my wife but she does know her place. Look at the FSU culture...for instance...my wife’s dad could be talking to me and his wife by mistake cuts into our conversation and he’ll give a quick death stare at his wife and say” don’t interrupt me”... she backs off quickly.. my wife was at the hospital for a checkout and I went with her and she was asking questions and to the doctor and his body language shifted to look like he got annoyed with her and I asked her later what he said and she told me that he said stop asking stupid questions...I was like what..I said if you told me that...I would have punched him in the mouth and he’d be alright because we were in the right spot for him to get help...the hospital...she said that’s why I didn’t tell you. This culture is male dominated by their personality...an FSU girl would be with their men I’d their men had ambition and drive and a sense of fun. These girls are bored with their men and get disappointed by not giving them a good life...we have all the advantages that they don’t though...when I go to their country..I think I’m the best thing walking those streets and I act like it...that’s why I’ve done incredibly well.

I know this looks like rubbish to most of you guys and sure it looks harsh but that’s like telling people you married an FSU girl to a westerner and they say...why would you need to do that because the women are better over here...blind fools. Western women are garbage and that’s a fact...FSU all the way...my ways may look primitive and cutthroat and this isn’t a dig but I’m still married and my wife is crazy about me...that won’t change anytime soon...take what you will from this...there is gold in it. Bjorn...you seem like a nice guy that reverted to our upbringing from our culture...but this woman did you a favor. Women wonder why men become pricks...we are their creation. If you’ve ever lost it all to a girl...trust me...you’ll become what they really want. A villain.

[krimster2]

bjorncode12,
gratitude for your kind acknowledgment ...

“I did have my share of difficulties in life and I had an unhappy childhood in many ways but this mapped onto Elena in the sense that I was deeply attached to her as a rescue fantasy.”

PS, expecting a Russian to rescue you, would be like expecting the hangman to perform Chiropracty, i.e. not reasonable, come to think of it, the only person who can rescue you, is actually just you, life preservers are on sale on Travelocity...

the rescue fantasy was 100% in your head, I can assure you there was something else entirely in hers...

[Boethius]

Her attitude to money spending was just a final chord though here she was really sincere.

Yes, and if she was making $2000 a month, she was making about 3X more than the average salary in Riga, yet still needed a $400 a month supplement.

[mendeleyev]

After reading the comments in the letter again, I feel compelled to comment on the state of mind of the RW.  In the US, I have witnessed, again and again, women who are easily distracted in dating a man and vice versa.  We are distracted by work, by families, by social influences and by obligations of our own making.   To succeed, especially if a marriage is not your first, it is important to put all of that aside.  All of those things must be secondary to the commitment you make to your spouse. 

An FSU woman, by nature, has to leave everything she has known to come to the US.  Perhaps she is bringing a child with her, perhaps not.  But, nonetheless, she is committed to this new lifestyle and the only thing supporting her is her relationship with 'her man'.   She has no other tether point.

To not honor that commitment, through distraction or inaction, or even a lack of understanding on the part of the man is reason for failure of the relationship.   

I see this letter, from the woman, as a plea to be 'her man'.  And, absent that, she cannot go on.  I have read many perspectives from many men on this forum in my time here.  Very few of them (I can count on one hand) demonstrate this level of commitment demanded by an FSU woman at the time she comes to her new country.   And I feel that this commitment, above all else, is the only true way that a marriage succeeds.

Well stated. WM seem to expect her to do most of the adapting, and figure it out by herself, while we go back to our normal busy routines.

The amount of weekly hours worked in our respective cultures is often very different. We see 40 hours plus a few more overtime as normal. She is wondering why we work so much with no time for her or family.

[bjorncode12]

Krimster when I said "rescue fantasy" I was alluding to the fact that she was my rescue fantasy.  I have never been in need of rescuing.   

[bjorncode12]

We all have a dark side, it runs in our shadow, that part of ourself that rears its head without warning.  It is something to be acknowledged and it gives us strength provided we are able to understand it and manage it and apply some opprobrium to the baser aspects of its nature.  Once your understand this, it becomes an asset.

[mendeleyev]

We share cooking depending on who is home at the time for meal prep, or who is freer at the moment. We also enjoy cooking together, one of my "interests" and she is also good at it, and I don't expect her to do all the housework, and have a career. But we haven't divided up tasks on some formal basis. We both have careers and seem to do what needs to be done to run a household.

Earlier today I started laundry because I had time and she was with a client. Likely she will finish it later, but nobody is keeping score. I even loaded and started the dishwasher yesterday. She must have come along later and completed the task because the dishes seem to be resting comfortably in cabinets at this moment.

She makes tea and I make the coffee. Not that we made a decision to divide chores because she likes to bustle around the kitchen in the morning, but frankly she tends to use a whole can of coffee to make 4 cups and then can't seem to understand why it is so strong. Coffee was not a part of Soviet/Russian culture in her childhood so I have taken over the coffee making task.

I have one hard and fast rule: my wife is not a garbage woman. Those with experience in Soviet times will understand this. She can set it out for me to complete the task, but unless I am traveling and away from home, in our home I have decreed that the man takes out garbage. Period. End of story.

We've only been at this for two decades, so I guess the jury is still out on how it will all play out.....

[bjorncode12]

That is more my style.   I always shared household tasks with my ex, but she was working full time.

It just seemed sensible and like the right thing to do. 

But if I were to marry a FSU woman and she was not working it would be logical for her to pick up most of the household work. 

But Elena was pretty clear that she was not found of household chores.   She was a princess through and through. 

[krimster2]

the great philosopher Clint Eastwood once said, “I reckon there’s some bad in all good men, and some good in all bad men” “and "sometimes we do for others what we secretly hope they will do for us” in other words, things are seldom black and white in the real world unless you’re Ted Cruz!

he also said “go ahead make my day”

sorry for my misinterpreting, my bad, but this way is even worse, plays totally into the rich American/Poor Russian narrative which guarantees a struggle over money in your relationship

in addition to the money it sounds a lot like 2 people who each have problems communicating past their own emotions, multiplied by a major cultural barrier, oh yeah, plus she’s a manipulative gold digger = what you wen through
obviously, the equation for this relationship does not balance...

there, but for the grace of God, go us all...

how 'bout a story?
ya want a story?
OK...


Krimster’s Erotic Tales of Crimea

Chapter I The Three Sisters

Once upon a time there were three Tatarii girls who lived in an old dilapidated house in a small village about a 45 minute drive north of Sevastopol.  Although they all looked very similar to each other and addressed each other as “sister” they weren’t actually sisters, but 2nd cousins, they all 3 appeared to be in their early 20's and were very beautiful with long dark hair and gray eyes.

The unique thing about the sisters was their profession.
They were (among other things!) drug dealers!
Through a network of family connections, the sisters ended up controlling 4 hecters of field that was supposed to belong to their family for the purpose of growing fodder for cattle.  Instead the sisters dedicated it to the purpose of growing the finest marijuana ever grown in Crimea, thanks to an American helper who smuggled in seeds from Amsterdam.

On one particular visit, their American was bringing them a new batch of AK47 seeds concealed in his sports jacket in a specially sealed envelope.
He made the long drive in his ‘67 racing green Triumph convertible, up the mountains and down the valley, passing ancient rock monasteries and the remains of ancient dead civilizations that came and went like the wind.
He turned down a narrow road that didn’t appear to be used too often which was only partially paved in sections until he came to the house of the 3 sisters.
He extracted his tall muscular frame out of the small English racing car, grabbed his luggage and slowly walked towards the front door.

to be continued next week, but first a word from our Sponsor!

[Sting23]

well this thread sure took a weird turn with Boomstick talking about who knows what and Krimster going all "you feel lucky punk" on us.

what the hell does that 3 sisters story have to do with anythine I got no idea. But if you're gonna write something at least finish the damn story.

Anyways back to bjorncode.  Yeah the rescue fantasy usually never works out.  Plus the way she behaves is not typical of all Russian women.  Truthfully she is a total gold digger.  Asking for money, expecting 5 star hotels and all that...  It sounds like you haven't met many Russian women.  They do expect you to pay for a date, dinner but to hear guys buying all sorts of stuff is ridiculous.  Just say no.

The other part about Russians showing no emotion isn't all that correct either.  Sure Russians can display anger in a rather bold way but they are just people like everyone. You can tell when they are happy, sad..the whole gamut.  Asians in general are probably much more reserved as a culture than Russians.

[bjorncode12]

i have started dating an asian woman.  She was born overseas but has lived in the U.S. for a while.

She is far less tempermental and emotional.  Very even keeled and calm.  I guess you would say she is a conflict avoider like me.   This has it's own set of problems which are quite different from wearing your heart on your sleeve, but far easier for me.

She also has her own money and career interests so the rescue thing is not on the table.  And she has kids of her own and is understanding and supportive of my kids.

Overall, one would think a much better match.  But there is that love thing.  My feelings for Elena are stronger to this day, 5 months since I have to heard or seen a word from her.

[Sting23]

Overall, one would think a much better match.  But there is that love thing.  My feelings for Elena are stronger to this day, 5 months since I have to heard or seen a word from her.

Well there's only 2 options.  Block her out completely or contact her again and see if you can start things up again.  Sounds like you haven't let go at all even with a new woman in your life.  You might regret it down the line if you didn't try once more.  But know your boundaries regarding money and don't budge.  If she doesn't agree to it then you'll know it played a bigger factor than you realized.

[Boethius]

Sometimes, a person is addicted to someone who is not good for them, be it a particular person or a type.


Note in particular, what the sole FSUM here posted.

[Sting23]

Sometimes, a person is addicted to someone who is not good for them, be it a particular person or a type.


Note in particular, what the sole FSUM here posted.

well if you read his last post he's going out with an Asian woman who's the complete opposite of his Russian woman.  His problem wasn't the type of woman, it was letting that Russian take advantage of his money and play him like a fiddle. 

[Boethius]

Elena still occupies space in his head and therefore, in his life. That’s unfair to the woman he is currently with, if the relationship is serious.

[ML]

You might regret it down the line if you didn't try once more. 

That would be a stupid thing to do.

He did already try 'once more.'

The next time he tries, she will be even more convinced that she can lead him around like an animal with a ring in his nose.

Trying twice is enough for any couple.  Three tries is absurd.

I think this gal is even more proof that most of we guys should not be trying to have a relationship with gals who are 9s or 10s.  It's just too distracting and messes with our minds.

[BillyB]

I think this gal is even more proof that most of we guys should not be trying to have a relationship with gals who are 9s or 10s. It's just too distracting and messes with our minds.

If a guys have relationships with women who are 1s and 2s, it's distracting and messes with their minds too.

[ML]

If a guys have relationships with women who are 1s and 2s, it's distracting and messes with their minds too.

That's what paper bags are for.

I once knew a woman who was so ugly, her dog put paper bag over his head when he humped her leg.

[Davo2]

This is an interesting topic and I'm going away on a tangent with some of this. In my limited experience with fsuw, I can see you can't generalise them all with the same personality.

Broomsticks wife is almost the opposite of the woman I'm conversing with, in some respects. It may have a fair bit to do with her past marriage. One of her greatest wishes is to have a husband who shares the domestic chores, in an equal relationship.  She has a passion for cooking and has said several times she would love to cook together.

She had a husband who dominated her life. She did everything re - domestic duties, raising the children etc... and he never lifted a finger to help. He spent his time with his friends drinking, cheating and rarely involved her in his life. She felt taken advantage of, incredibly lonely and has stated she will never return to a relationship that's not an equal partnership in all aspects of the marriage. She's not looking for a man who behaves like like the usual stereotype of a  Russian husband.

I raise my children with very little support from my ex. I cook, clean,  iron, help with kids homework and do everything traditionally a mother and wife would do. This is what she finds most attractive . The added bonus is I rarely drink alcohol, which is a big red flag for her.

You can still be a strong man and also not conform to typical gender roles.  I'm not the typical suburban metrosexual house husband. I'm a bit of an adrenalin junky, I race cars, ride bareback broncs, shoot and surf among other outdoor activities, so I still come across as a mans man. My philosophy is be a man, don't get walked over, but don't take advantage and do everything to make a partner feel appreciated.

 It doesn't hurt to make an effort occasionally as 70 % of divorces are initiated by women in western society and the main cause according to women, is their husbands are lazy and they don't feel appreciated or feel he contributes to the relationship equally. The majority of affairs for women over 40 are contributed to the same reason. She might not show it at the start as women like to show she can keep a household in order as a way of attracting a man, but eventually she will start to despise you sitting on the couch as she labours in the house, no matter what culture she comes from.

As a moderator on an international affair support group, it only takes a guy to come along and say the right things to a wife in this situation to entice her away from the marriage and yes there are betrayed Russian men who are members as well as western  men. Around 40 women are more likely to have an affair, as I said previously due to not feeling appreciated at home. Sadly for many members in this group that have been in a long term relationships, your wife may be seeing another man right now. Women are now cheating almost at the same rates as men.  60-70% of long term relationship experience infidelity, but most will have no idea it happened, unless it's an exit affair. Think about that when you're out drinking with mates every weekend or watching her scrub the kitchen floor, while you watch football.

The woman I'm talking with is an honest 8 for her age, but doesn't see it or  doesn't let it go to her head. If I compliment her on her beauty she thanks me, but always finishes with "I'm just a simple woman"

In regards to the OP's issue with her expecting money and 5 star hotels... She refuses to accept gifts. I've had a birthday present for her sitting here for months and won't let me mail it ( I'll give it to her when we meet).... She often says "I don't want anything from you, except your friendship". It's the same with our failed tourist visa attempt. She was out of pocket with some expenses that usually a man would pay and she refuses to be reimbursed. She was more excited with the prospect of camping and sleeping in a swag in the outback, than a luxury hotel in Melbourne.

 My family live near a very wealthy city, due to the tuna fishing  industry. When I explained there were more millionaires than anywhere else in Australia here and I could only wish to have that type of wealth, she chastised me "money isn't important, who you are a person is the only thing that matters in life"

Maybe I'm lucky to find someone first time that doesn't exhibit any red flags that are common issues in many posts, but it proves that they are out there, you just need to keep looking and don't settle for anything less than your perfect  match.

Saying that the real test is when we finally meet, which keeps getting postponed due to both of our work commitments. It looks like September is locked in. I don't recommend waiting to meet as long as we have,  but it's pretty amazing we still can chat for hours  after 15 months of conversing  everyday.

That's my slightly off topic rant done for this month 


 

[jone]

Had to look up the word 'swag'.  LOL.