Elen, RWDMA, BC, and RW's Attitudes

[Wild Orchid*]

She apparently has no life so she incessantly posts here and on other RW forums.

And what do you do in contrary? 

[BC]

If there were surefire ways to tell a RWDMA from RW I might agree with some of the above..

But IMHO any AM is simply looking at a box of chocolates..  You will never really know what's inside until you bite and even then might still wonder..

[Elen]

How long is some of you going to make your silly conclusions about my lovely person not knowing me at all? 

[Turboguy]

Elen,  if you have no life and constantly post here, don't feel bad.  You are not the only one.  I am in the same boat.  Of course I had a life before I started this persuit and hope to have one when I conclude it.

Elen,  I have to agree you are not the type of Russian gal I hope to find but I do enjoy your perspective on things and even though I don't always agree with you I like to see an intelligent RW's ideas on the things we talk about.  Personally, I am glad you are here.

[catzenmouse]

Taz,

 I'd say that was a pretty crappy cheap shot at Elen. Obviously you don't like her but to say that she is not what anyone wants is low. She loves her country, what's wrong with that? Do you love yours? If posters were to take cheap shots at your country would you defend it? If they posted wacky statistics and absolute truths that you knew were wrong would you try to correct them?

 In not wanting a woman like her are you saying that you are intimitated by an intelligent woman who is not afraid to speak her mind? Are you saying that you only want a woman who is hell-bent on getting out of the FSU?

 Every country in the world has problems with HIV/AIDS and STDs. Go to any inner city and you'll find those "third world" conditions too. Personally I think you owe her an apology but I don't expect that you'll be up to the task.

Ken

[Elen]

Thank for all those who demonstrated here more common sence than Taz He is exactkly that type of males because of who I have no desire to say anything about my life which I have for sure but it's not a concern of anybody's here


PS for those who such consern about AIDS in Russia I can say that otherwise to Western countries 80% those who get AIDS/HIN are under 30 ( good luck for those who preffer young girls  ) and 90% of them are drug addicted

PSS Also when I try to estimate myself I don't put into a list of values I should fit to such parameter like  "a wish of foreigner males from internet to marry me" 

[Turboguy]

Nice post Ken,  Taz might want to realize that although Elen might be a little more outspoken than some, most all FSU women have a little bit of Elen in them.

[Son of Clyde]

I am extremely thankful to all the Russian women who post here. It is best to get all sides of the story and having a few women who pull no punches is actually a good thing. It is the quality of a decent Russian woman to be honest. A scammer will most likely lie about everything.

[jb]

Any man who can't handle Elen's straight forward, shoot from the hip, in your face attitude, needs to go elsewhere to find a wife.  She's pretty typical of the breed.

[Marcopolo]

     I agree that Elen has a right to post wherever she wants as long as she is cordial. I do however, think her fascination with this board is very peculiar.

   How many years has she been doing this?

   In any event. I think the magnetic attraction to this board for her stems from a deep down knowledge that the women's movement is a  sham.

  I don't begrudge ANY woman from working, having a lonely existence, and
never having kids if they want that from their lives. On the other hand the woman's movement needs to fess up that you indeed CAN'T have it all. You want to sell them on having a career...well why don't you tell them that 95% of people HATE their job. When you have a separate career something always suffers. It just works better when the man has the career and the woman can stay at home and manage the home. Does that mean that woman should be subserviant to men, NO WAY ...it  should be a partnership.The woman's movement then becomes a vicious circle, feminazi's you get what you created---worthless men(goats)...guys who don't or won't work because the CHICK wants to work. Then you complain about it. Look at Russia, you had an entire workforce of working women and what did you get... a country that does'nt function and a generation or two of alchoholic men. Nice job. The housewife 'career' choice needs to be venerated and reclaimed again if the human race is going to make it.

  That being said, I am not looking for a woman who is desparate to get out of the FSU. I just plan to interject myself into a situation where I am simply a better choice for a woman who is looking for a man. I am already THAT better choice in America but the women I have left to choose from at 39 are either overweight, psychotic, or drunk...or usually all of the above. Given my comments I have worked VERY VERY hard so that I can put my money (literally) where my mouth is in that I am fincnailly comfortable enough that my spouse will never have to get a job out of necessity...and any man should be willing to  do the same. FSU women become a very viable alternative to a healthy, educated, working, American Alpha male who waited too long to get married.

   Elen will complain and act upset similar to a child lashing out when he knows you are right. I think the board will/can become theraputic for her journey to the eventual epiphany.


Marcopolo(Mark)

   

[Elen]

You may think whatever you wnat about my "fascination" with this board

My score here - Total time logged in: 4 days, 8 hours and 14 minutes.

And what have I to do with women's movement???? 

And before you started to pass strictures on my personal life I would wish you all to last in marriage with your perfect RWDMA in your American fine society (which has such "odd: effect on your females' population) the same period I spent in my marriage

And the last thing I have a need in is to get "a permission" to post here from some guy with 10 posts I'm fine with others who know me better and asked when I return here when I was busy with my real life and didn't post here for a while 

[Admin]

We are actually quite fortunate to have a number of unusual perspectives represented here. Elen has been posting here since the beginning of RWD - so quite a while. Elen's story is around, if you search for it - and she is also active at both RWG and at antidate. She does not promote much about her personal story, and that leaves some feeling a little cold, but her perspective is always interesting - and for those who have taken the time to befriend her and get to know her, she has been (I am told) quite helpful to them in their endeavors.

We also have MammaD (Dottie), who is an AW married to an AM for oh... let's just say it has been a while  - AND - she brings a highly-valued perspective of principles and honesty and commitment and a few other characteristics we could all use more of. She reminds us of the importance of morality and sincerity in all that we do - AND - her son is married to a wonderful Russian lady who brought with her a son - and they have formed a terrific family unit.

Wild Orchid* (never had understood what that asterisk is for  ???) has been posting here and using a different moniker on RWG, and has put several of us to the challenge of supporting the claims which are made. That is a good thing. She helps keep everyone honest, and prevents misinformation being distributed from claims left unchecked.

We also have a fiancee who makes an appearance from time to time. She is engaged to someone from the board - and their story is a happy one and she offers a unique perspective from one who is still in the process, and still living in Ukraine.

There are numerous others - MandM, rose, and dostogirl are contributing members. RedHairedGirl and Lena are wives of some RWD members, RussianGal pops in from time to time, and more.

We can all learn a lot from the ladies who participate on our board. Even when they are exasperating 

- Dan

[groovlstk]

In any event. I think the magnetic attraction to this board for her stems from a deep down knowledge that the women's movement is a  sham.

I've heard Elen called many names here, but this is the first time I've seen her labelled a feminist.

If you guys don't like what she posts, why don't you simply put her on ignore?

I for one enjoy her barbed responses when someone who's never been to the FSU starts posting "facts" about Russian women and Russia -- which they're probably culled from reading marriage agency websites. 

[Doug S]

Hi All,

I took the weekend off. Don't forget, my Russian in-laws will be here in a week. The guest room's almost finished, ha-ha..

I just wanted to pop in and make what I hope are some anti-inflammatory comments about this thread.

First off, BC and Elen, thanks for the extra background. It helps me a lot, and although a lot of people on these Internet groups defend the unwritten rule, privilege, and supposed advantage of anonymity; I think it robs the opinions and experiences presented here of a lot of their value. Context adds value to all stories. I could make up crap all day long about my marriage to a Russian woman and experiences and Russia, but really just be some retired, 80-year old, 10-times divorced, international sex-tourist wanna-be crackpot with a DSL line and last year's Gateway Student Special.

So again, thanks BC and Elen.

BC, it is now very easy for me to see how our two experiences with Russian women (and MILs) can be so very different. Even though we both have a lot of what you dubbed "international experience," We are very different, you and I. Our backgrounds, personal situations, "baggage" from previous lives, etc. As are our current situations, locations, where and how we have chosen to set up house with our Russian women, etc.

I guess you have adopted that favorite Italian pastime of pinching, ha-ha. Hopefully you are getting large doses of all of that goes along with that - the relaxed lifestyle, crusty bread, Parmesan, and wine.

My mistake to assume your wife is ten years older than Olga. You said she had a child from a previous marriage/union, and I thought you said she (and you) had both been married twice before, this being the third time for both of you. I have no idea how long you have been married to your Russian wife. I just applied some crude (and apparently bad) reasoning and math to come up with "ten years older." My Russian wife, Olga, was 20 years old when we met, and 21 when we got married. She had not been married before, and had no children form any prior "relationships." We were married for five years before we decided Olga had had sufficient time to adapt to the West, learn the language, get some college etc. (get on her feet; before embarking on the huge responsibility of parenthood. She was, therefore 27 when she had her first child. She is now 28. My apologies for the mistake if it caused any offense.

I discussed this with Olga over dinner last night. She said that she (Olga) is probably a little bit unusual for a Russian woman of her social standing in that she did not already have a carpet crawler when I met her (Lord knows a lot of Russian guys tried very hard to bring her within the norm); but that this was deliberate and the result of strong "parenting" by her Mom, who wanted her daughter to have a different (and presumably "better") life than she did. (And don't forget that it was this same MIL that pushed Olga to look for a husband abroad. Thank God the Turkish boys didn't get her, Elen!)

BC, I hate acronyms and abbreviations. I write for a living. And I work in a field (business and technical writing) that is rife with acronyms and abbreviations. I'm always spelling them out and the engineers are always putting them back in. I was just playing with you (pinching?,O.K., I said it but the usage makes me shudder because I am not European-ized like you are) because you lapsed into using them. I lifted my "HO" from your "IHMO," which is altogether a silly Internet-discussion-group-geek convention when you really think about it, the "H" supposedly meaning "humble."  (Am I allowed to say that? The "g" word? Was not intended to offend anybody. You know, there's even a business now called "Geek Squad," so I'm claiming acceptance through popular usage, same as "MOB" (to use yet another reviling acronym)

By the way, BC, it's not an acronym unless the initials spell another word. "MOB" or "KISS," for example. Everything elseare just abbreviations.

To prove how much i hate abbreviations and acronyms, you may refer back to things I have written and published. I never use "RW," although it is perhaps THE most commonly accepted abbreviation on these groups. I always spell it out. As an act of respect to my wife, Olga and all Russian women.

All that said, I was not trying to reduce you or anybody else into boxed mice that I could label and better study. I was just looking to put both your posts and Ellen's posts into some kind of context so that I could better understand the points you are trying to make (or lack thereof in some cases).

You must admit BC, that in light of the discussion we started, there may be some value in the the new abbreviation "RWDMA," which I created from Ellen's own words, and which is a real mouthful if one were to spell it out each time. The value not being so much that it saves a lot of words (which I consider of no value in case you couldn't tell from reading me), but that it distinguishes between two general types of Russian women - those who "decided" or WANTED to marry and American and  come, live, be in America; and those who either did not WANT to, or still remain undecided (but may have married an American nevertheless).

I consider this thread a success in pointing out the difference. And as you yourself said BC, many RWDMA are really RW in disguise and that contradiction is the source of a lot of the problems with the marriages (and K-1 engagements). I think this is a major point to be made and for all involved in this to understand, and thanks to BC and Elen for helping me present clarify it.

Now that doesn't mean I'm wholeheartedly endorsing Elen and her behavior here. I still think she is sadly out of place on these groups, and that you guys were way too hard on Taz, who made extremely good points (I'm not just saying that because he agreed with me by name, although that helped. Great minds...)

And by the way Elen. Lots of vodka indeed. I'm a tea totaler. (that means I can't hold much alcohol, two shots and I pass out). I'm sorry you decided not to Pm me with all the KGB-protected information. You will forever be an enigma for me. I have ruled out the possibility of you actually being MY Russian Mother-in-Law; but I still think you could be my Russian sister-in-law just messing with me.

I'm going to segue, along the Taz line of thought, to talking about something for which I draw not solely upon my seven years of experience with Russians and Russian women, but with my seven years of dealing with and getting to know the kind of MEN who either marry or think they want to be married to Russian women. (Can you believe I would actually spend that much of my own time on these guys? A lot of guys like me just take the prize and exit stage left, leaving the madding crowd to fend for themselves.)

Some guys actually like being PW'd. Now there's an abbreviation that I actually like to use because spelling it out is both embarrassing and inflammatory.  There are a whole;e bunch of guys like this. Not my cup of chai, but one man's ceiling is another man's floor.

And if that's what you like, what floats your boat, toots your horn. gets the wood upright, etc., Russia is indeed the place for you. If you are looking to get your balls busted on a regular basis, by all means jump on the first flight to Moscow, get off the plane, lie on your back right there in the middle of the airport, turn your pockets inside out, and beg for more. You will get it. In fact, Russian women will line up to give you all the brow-beating pleasure you like. (However, if a guy with big cajones were to arrive on the same flight - a much rare occurrence, I think - I daresay the line of Russian women would be even longer.)

I'm with Taz in that I could not, and have no desire to be married to, a Russian woman, or woman from any other country, like Elen.  I'm also here to tell you guys who think that's cool, appreciate Ellen's great contribution to Russian womanhood, etc. that I'm not criticizing you. Go for it. Have at it. Draw all the Ellen's toward you and away from guys like me, please. We'll both be happy in the end, right?

But just because the population of these Internet discussion groups may be tilted more to the PW'd side that the non-PW'd, please don't go around saying that all Russian women are like Elen. There are plenty of very nice Russian women out there who are not ball-busters. And I would advise (The seemingly few) guys who are
 not the PW-type to seek those and steer away from Ellen's. Also, don't believe what the PW'd guys are teeling you about all Russian women being like that and those being your only choices.

Now I will agree that all Russian women have Elen-like tendencies. That is cultural. Olga even has them. But it's up to you, the men, to either take if that's what you enjoy in a marriage, it or stand up to them if that's not exactly what you had in mind for a marriage.

A generalization I am not afraid to make about Russian women is that they all can sense a man's proclivity for PW'ing like a wolf can sense fear in humans ands other animals. And like the wolf, if the proclivity exists they will seize upon it and turn the situation to their advantage.  Some Russian women, those who really couldn't stand being married to a PW'd guy, might not marry the guy who likes PW'ing. They might just conveniently avoid the whole marriage complication as long as they can and just use him until he is used up. (The guy smiling blissfully all the while. "Isn't this great!") (I believe Elen correctly referred to this as the "yoke" in one of those amusing instances where translation actually provides a better, more accurate word that the one that was originally intended.)

In other cases, where marriage can not be postponed any longer, the Russian woman, who doesn't really want a PW'd guy, but will settle for one if it's all that's available, will marry him and do her best not to disappoint him in terms of PW'ing the hell out of him. It has been my observation that these Russian women get meaner and meaner as time goes by. This is because a PW'd husband was actually their second choice, so they are in reality disappointed and un-fulfilled in the marriage. One of the most recent examples I saw culminated in the Russian woman getting so mad at her cajone-less American husband that she actually physically attacked him one day. It got so bad, he called the cops and HER arrested on domestic violence charges, claiming she kicked him in the cajones (which casts suspicion on her claim that he has none). What a mess. They are divorced now. Later, this same Russian woman told Olga she would have rather ed HE hit HER, than her having to resort to hitting him. Things had gotten that bad in terms of their expectations of each other with regards to the relationship between man and woman, cultural differences, etc.

O.K., now many of you may dismiss this as the sexist, chauvinistic ravings of a deranged madman. And many of you may have been offended to my reference to PW'ing. I daresay that, aside from KenC,  Non-PW'd American men married to Russian women are not well represented here. This dichotomy of men - PW'd vs. non-PW'd - existed on the other group and I was subsequently tarred and feathered for my extremist Non-PW views with regards to dealing Worthy Russian women. (I guess those guys would have a lot of feathers, eh? But where's they get all that tar?).

But before you light the torches, consider the substance of my case. And it's not as simple as male chauvinism, the Cleavers, etc. It's more complicated than that. The cultural issues on both sides are deep. And there is the added layer of the "giver" and "taker" dynamics of the whole "mail order bride" business. My young Russian wife, Olga is far from subservient. She will and regularly cuts them off and hands them to me on a platter. And I regularly re-attach them, adjust my position (and my pants), and we pick it up from there. We work at the marriage every day. Through this process we've developed a great deal of respect for each other, and it is this mutual respect that we believe makes our particular cross-cultural marriage stronger than a domestic one could be. (And it might be good to note that I had to work similarly hard to earn the respect of, and establish rules of engagement with, my Russian in-laws.)  

Making a hard stand in this area of refusing to be PW'd in any shape or form worked well for me with Russian women. It meant crossing a good number of them off my list (and them crossing me off theirs). But I kept going, believing that they can't all be like that. And they're not. It's just that the ones you hear about most on these Internet discussion boards, by virtue of the guys who are doing the reporting - the kind of Russian women the average Western/American guy looking for a Russian wife comes into contact with first (and often marries)  - are indeed what you have talked yourselves into here.  And futher, their behavior towards you in this regard is very greatly determined by your behavior toward them. Come in like a sheep and you are going to get a wolf or a tiger.

(This harkens back to my "nice guys finish last in FSU" thread, which also started a riot on the other group).

Give Taz his due. I don't know the background of Taz's particular situation or experience with Russian women, but I can venture a guess. he's got a lot of it (experience with Russian women).

And for those of you who are living their lives happily ever after in a state of blissful PW married to a Russian woman, more power to you. Again, no criticism or offense intended by me. Live and let live, I say. (Maxx; you could never have lived like that; and in that sense count your train wreck as a blessing and a solution that you unconsciously brough upon yourself, no matter how painful it may have seemed.)

By necessity, I am going to be taking a hiatus from this group. (Russian in-laws coming. I am both sharpening my swords and preparing to embrace them, all at once. It's "the process.") Please don't misconstrue the ensuing silence or lack of reply from me that as some kind of statement or admission of guilt.

DS

[dostogirl]

We can all learn a lot from the ladies who participate on our board. Even when they are exasperating 

- Dan

Thank you, Dan. We all represent different parts of the ex-Soviet Union, we come from different families with different backgrounds, we have different education, political beliefs, and belong to different social levels. All of us contribute to the forum in different ways. 

[Admin]

Doug,

You are slipping.

It used to take you far fewer than 2,575 words to insult 99 % of the guys on the board.

- Dan

[BC]

My goodness.. I read the whole thing.

What immediately came to mind is that old saying.. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullsh!t.."

You really should be in politics Doug.

Cheers and enjoy your in-laws visit.

 

(all said in good humour)

[Taz]

Honestly, I don’t know what I have to apologize for. I don’t have a problem with apologizing. To blindly equate intelligence as the sole criteria to listen to someone is not a valid. Someone may have a lot of intelligence but limited experience. Others may have a lot of intelligence and a lot of experience but in a narrow area.

Let me phrase the debate in simpler terms. For the sake of discussion who do you think would know more about Siberia, a native Russian living in Moscow, or a foreigner who speaks the language living and working in Siberia itself? Honestly I see a lot of self appointed experts talking about things as if their experience applies to the entire country. Siberia is different than Moscow or St. Pete. Kiev is different than Moscow but more similar to it than the most of Russia or Ukraine. The big 3 cities in the FSU tend to have an elitist mentality vis a vis the rest of Russia or Ukraine quite often referring to them as the equivalent of hicks or country bumpkins.

Each country has its failings, That is of course, true but in general Russia’s issues are quite widespread. Russian has a very long history of valuing the state far above the individual. What this means is that terrible ecological issues are often hidden from view while they continue to affect millions of people and quite possibly you if you visit some of these areas.

Russia has some issues that need to be addressed soon. The extremely high AIDs rate is a big issue. The lack of a truly thriving middle class is a big issue. Let’s just say in general Russia has an incredible demographic issue. It is one of the few big countries in the world that has a declining population rate. At the current rate of decline Russia won’t have enough people to really look after itself. About 60% of the population is pensioners. The list of issues confronting Russia is very daunting. Yet many in Russia turn a blind eye to it.

The only way Russia will survive in the short term is to encourage immigrants. Many immigrants have stopped coming to Russia for a variety of reasons as economic conditions improve in their countries. Russia’s population is declining at a rate of 700,000 people per year. All you have to do is to think about what the economic impact of that will be to have a good idea of will be in store for Russia not to far down the road. If you follow a lot of Elen’s post everything is rosy on the Russian front and it is a great place to live. The evidence is quite contrary to that. Of any of the G8 industrialized countries, Russia has some of the biggest issues to deal with.

Russia has some amazing things to offer people and see. It has some truly wonderful things to see and some great people to meet.

I read a lot of Elen’s posts here and on other forums. The reason I used the term fish wife is she has a pattern of always trying to have the last word; no matter what. If you don’t agree with her, she will try and whittle away at you until you give up, agree with her or move on. That is not my nature. I don’t run from conflict nor do I run from it. I will stand my ground on the issues I believe strongly in. If that is the kind of woman you want then there are plenty of them everywhere. I am more interested in a woman that will be willing to find a compromise. Elen doesn’t appear to be that way in her writing. Perhaps she is different in person. I don’t really care nor am I interested in finding out.

I may not have a huge post count here but what does that really mean? Nothing in reality or maybe a lot depending on your viewpoint. It does mean that I am not fixated on this board spending all my free time here purporting to be an expert on all things Russian. I am not but I’d wager that I am more intimately familiar with a lot of things about Russia that 99% of all foreigners aren’t. While it is true that I am not a long time member here that doesn’t mean that I have been involved in Russian related issues for a short time. In reality I know a lot of you from other boards yet you don’t recognize me here. You would know based on past experience that I am a very reasoned person and don’t wildly or blindly come to conclusions about things or make off-the-cuff comments.

If you want to deal with a ball-busting RW then you will easily find them there. They will chew you up and spit you out quicker than tree limbs through a shredder. I am not saying RW should be your adversary or to distrust them. I will say if you get the “wrong” one, you will regret the day you ever met her more so than any other type of woman I’ve met in my life. Women like Elen tend to take some sort of perverse pride in people making these types of statements and would try and turn the statement back on the person who said it? Sort of like “What is wrong with a strong, intelligent woman?” On the surface nothing is wrong with that but when you combine those attributes with stubbornness, an obstinate character, unwillingness to compromise and a few other less than desirable attributes it becomes quite a handful.

So to those who love Elen so much, good for you. I hope you find “her” in whatever woman you are looking for. I gladly will pass. I know that I can find women who are strong and intelligent but not so pre-disposed toward conflict. I want a woman to work WITH me not against me. If I save one unsuspecting guy from marrying a woman like Elen, then my words will not have been wasted. I am not wishing ill will on Elen as that isn’t my nature. I hope that she finds the happiness she deserves and there is probably some man that would “thrive” under her tutelage.

By the way, I am for diverse opinions from all people on the boards. Elen just has a way of insinuating herself on almost every topic it seems at times. She seems to have a comment about everything and if yours is different than hers or contradicts HER experience then of course it must be wrong. It is her lack of tolerance that I take issue with; I don’t hate or dislike her. I can agree to disagree with most people. If your experience doesn’t fit her ideas or view of her country then it must be wrong.  If it is not Elen’s way then it is the wrong way! That attitude is what got Russia to the place it is at now. It seems to be endemic of the older generations like Elen's but the younger ones are more open-minded. That is why it is more interesting to read comments like Dosto girl's.

[Elen]

I can give you Таз an advice I gave to all such my admires - DO FOLLOW my posts, QOUTE them , post you own opinion but NOT re-tell MY posts in YOUR own interpretation with comments about my personality

BTW you have not idea where I was in the USSR due to my work like you have not idea about many things 

And for God sake stop to scare each other with a prospect to marry to "Elen"  - relax , boys!  I told you already RWDMA were not the same to just RW  - so hardly you would  meet women exactly like me in this dating business - not many of you could be SUCH lucky 

[Bruno]

...
Russia has some issues that need to be addressed soon. The extremely high AIDs rate is a big issue. The lack of a truly thriving middle class is a big issue. Let’s just say in general Russia has an incredible demographic issue. It is one of the few big countries in the world that has a declining population rate. At the current rate of decline Russia won’t have enough people to really look after itself. About 60% of the population is pensioners. The list of issues confronting Russia is very daunting. Yet many in Russia turn a blind eye to it.
...

AIDS... something who was non existant during the time of the communism... a gift from the democratie 

The first official case of HIV in the USSR was recorded in the end of 1986, in a Russian who contracted the virus in Africa and then infected 15 Soviet soldiers with whom he had homosexual relations. This was immediately publicized in a mass media campaign which proclaimed that HIV/AIDS was a disease of a corrupt lifestyle. The USSR was not ready socially, ideologically, or economically for a serious prevention campaign at that time-- homosexuality was illegal, issues related to reproductive health were not considered appropriate themes for public discussion, and the country was reeling from the instability of perestroika.

Between 1987 and 1989 a system of regional AIDS centers throughout the USSR was set up to carry out testing and limited prevention activities. Government policy emphasized using HIV antibody testing on a wide scale in an attempt to identify HIV-positive people. Between the years of 1987 and 1991 over 142 million people were tested. Only 0.004% of these tests were done anonymously. The majority of these tests were conducted without the knowledge or consent of those being tested and no protocols involving pre or post test counseling were instituted. Positive tests were often followed by aggressive contact tracing. The primary prevention campaign consisted of a discriminatory, fear-based mass media campaign which often led to heavy persecution of people with HIV/AIDS.

The political and economic instability of the late 1980s and early 1990s resulted in a general lack of attention to the issue of HIV/AIDS. In 1991, the Institute of Preventative Medicine stopped translating foreign literature about the issue. Information campaigns ceased to exist. The public gave little consideration to the threat of HIV during this period which is often associated with Russia's "sexual revolution," an increase in IV drug use, and a surge in prostitution. Today both the public's and the government's perception of the risk of HIV are very distorted. In 1995, according to official governmental statistics, there were over 10 million cases of sexually transmitted diseases (STDs) reported in Russia.

Middle class... they are working on it ( http://www.gateway2russia.com/st/art_260046.php ) , and the actual middle class who is 20% of the population produces some 30% of the country's gross domestic product of $220 billion ( http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_42/b3703093.htm ).

Birth rate problem... very similar but not so bad that in a lot of European country... http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_bir_rat-people-birth-rate

Elders population... 60%  ... 65 year old and more are only 14.2% of the total population in Russia...  http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/peo_age_str_65_yea_and_ove-age-structure-65-years-over

Except for the AIDS problem, who have appear after the end of communisme... the rest is not really a problem... Middle class is growing, birth rate is similar to modern country, elder population are in the norm... don't forget that Russia have fully change of system a short time ago... i find already wonderful that they have reach the actual level short time after the fall of communisme... Our western civilization have use several hundred year to reach the actual level... Russia who have start from almost zero have reach a reasonnable level in a decade...

[BC]

After a little reflection on this the thought came to mind that our marriage is one of equals.  We each pull our weight in complimentary and often lively ways. When one of us 'puts our foot down' we both stomp to compromise.

I get the gut feeling that Elens marriage is also one of equals.  If so, then I believe her husband could be considered quite a man.

I can't imagine having a subservient partner as being intellectually sustainable for the long haul. I'm sure such relationships can exist but am confident they are a minority.

[dostogirl]

Except for the AIDS problem.. the rest is not really a problem...

Really?    Unfortunately, no matter how fast Russia is changing, Russian mindset stays the same. I think Elen (no offence) is a good example of it here.

[Elen]

Really?    Unfortunately, no matter how fast Russia is changing, Russian mindset stays the same. I think Elen (no offence) is a good example of it here.

Something "wrong" with my mindset by western standarts? 

[dostogirl]

Something "wrong" with my mindset by western standarts? 

who said it's wrong? It's just someting that will never change...no matter how hard you try to change

[Maxx2]

And for those of you who are living their lives happily ever after in a state of blissful PW married to a Russian woman, more power to you. Again, no criticism or offense intended by me. Live and let live, I say. (Maxx; you could never have lived like that; and in that sense count your train wreck as a blessing and a solution that you unconsciously brough upon yourself, no matter how painful it may have seemed.)

DS

I am taking this as a high compliment. However as you said over at the other place half of my brain's been shot away so I really wouldn't know.

I try and give advice only on the dark subject. When doing so my biggest problem I have with the guy's is their need to be nice and open at all times with their RW. Even when they are in the process of divorcing them. Are their RW (or any?) nice and open with them? Think the opposite. 99% of RW are secretive and sly even the ones that don't seem to be. They can be frank as all hell but dig a little deeper and you can see they are not open. As LP said they all have agendas you just got to figure if you can live with theirs or if not then fight them for the next 20 - 40 years. They're uber-women in this regard. I could see Elen in the smoldering ruins of Stalingrad with her AK-47 battling the Nazi 6th Army and she is typical RW. Scarry.

Maxx