It appears you have not registered with our community. To register please click here ...

!!

Welcome to Russian Women Discussion - the most informative site for all things related to serious long-term relationships and marriage to a partner from the Former Soviet Union countries!

Please register (it's free!) to gain full access to the many features and benefits of the site. Welcome!

+-

Author Topic: More Bad News for Russia  (Read 1075926 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline fathertime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9864
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4500 on: May 03, 2016, 01:05:13 PM »



After the election of 2012, Putin made a gesture to the West by allowing NATO to have a base INSIDE Russia. Of course, high rent was a part of the deal, but it turned to a lie the idea that Russia was being surrounded by aggressive West out to dominate Moscow & Co. Oh, and part of the deal included Washington recognizing a flawed 2012 election that returned Putin to power.

There were some quirks in the NATO base: Putin soon insisted that companies run by Oligarchs, instead of NATO personnel, have exclusive access to maintenance of NATO planes, for example. That went over in DC and Brussels like a lead balloon, and when Russian media (then still independent) began to inform the Russia public about a NATO base inside Russia, it didn't take long for the deal to end. Today, the old story of "NATO is trying to surround us" is back, and it seems that nationalism trumps reality these days.



I don't see the 'logic' in what you are saying here.  The way you state it, Russia played us by allowing NATO to have a base temporarily, and received some good benefits for the time it was there...then after benefits were received they made sure we were packed up and scooted on out.    All of this DOES NOT provide evidence that NATO isn't a part of a design to isolate, or financially dominate Russia as much as possible.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline mendeleyev

  • RWD Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4501 on: May 03, 2016, 01:12:21 PM »
Quote
you view is distorted by you political agenda



Not political at all. I love Russia as a people, land, and culture. I dislike much about the current Russian government as I also dislike about the American government.

Now, instead of saying something is political, if you have facts that disprove what I wrote--post them. But do not just repeat tired and regurgitated garbage because if you do I will chew it up and spit it out faster than you imagine.
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline mendeleyev

  • RWD Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4502 on: May 03, 2016, 01:24:21 PM »

I don't see the 'logic' in what you are saying here.  The way you state it, Russia played us by allowing NATO to have a base temporarily, and received some good benefits for the time it was there...then after benefits were received they made sure we were packed up and scooted on out.    All of this DOES NOT provide evidence that NATO isn't a part of a design to isolate, or financially dominate Russia as much as possible.


Fathertime!


I have absolutely no doubt that you do not see the logic. Welcome to my world.

Do you have a reason why the USA might supposedly wish to dominate Russia?

We brought them into the WTO, something they begged us to do. For years we paid to clean up their old chemical and nuke wastelands. So much for our isolating them as you believe.

Oil can be found in lots of places around the world, including closer to home. Russians are told in media, daily, that the USA wants to someday invade and take over Russian oil. Can you think of anyone since the 1400s who has successfully conquered Russia?


Finally, just to clarify on your logic: so if you were the leader of a nation that felt threatened by the world's largest and most modern standing army, you would allow them to establish a base inside your borders?
« Last Edit: May 03, 2016, 01:32:59 PM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline TigerPaws

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: um
  • Gender: Male
  • 16 years together & still very much in love
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4503 on: May 03, 2016, 02:42:58 PM »

Oil can be found in lots of places around the world, including closer to home. Russians are told in media, daily, that the USA wants to someday invade and take over Russian oil. Can you think of anyone since the 1400s who has successfully conquered Russia?

Finally, just to clarify on your logic: so if you were the leader of a nation that felt threatened by the world's largest and most modern standing army, you would allow them to establish a base inside your borders?

Physically invading Russia = Loss, making Russia the bad guy is easy Propaganda as most Americans are simply stupid.

The worlds largest standing Army, China has that dubious honor, the most modern standing Army the U.S. is still tops in that regard. Russia is trying and building but as long as they insist on conscripts and not a 100% professional fighting force then that distinction will allude Russia. 

Offline TigerPaws

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: um
  • Gender: Male
  • 16 years together & still very much in love
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4504 on: May 03, 2016, 02:56:19 PM »
Tom Clancy Predicted Ship-Killing A-10s‘The Hunt for Red October’ sends Warthog attack jets against Soviet warshipsIn April 2016, the U.S. Air Force deployed four A-10 Warthog attack jets to The Philippines for patrols over the South China Sea, where China has been building artificial islands and sailing warships in order to expand its territorial claims on mineral-rich waters.
The low- and slow-flying A-10 — the Air Force’s premier tank-killer — might seem like an odd choice for a maritime patrol plane, especially in air space where there’s a good chance of running into supersonic Chinese fighters.
Indeed, the Warthogs’ deployment seems to be a matter of convenience for the U.S. military, which has struggled to field an adequate number of fighters. “Given the demand around the world, a tactical fighter squadron is a tactical fighter squadron is a tactical fighter squadron,” Bob Work, the deputy defense secretary, told Breaking Defense.
But the radar-less A-10 is capable of fighting at sea, provided some other plane does the sensor work. Warthogs gunned enemy patrol boats during the NATO intervention in Libya in 2011. And 27 years earlier in 1984, the late novelist Tom Clancy described A-10s taking on the Soviet navy in his classic technothriller The Hunt for Red October.
With a rogue Soviet commander steering his high-tech nuclear submarine toward the United States, aiming for asylum, Soviet and American air and naval forces grapple over the Atlantic — coming dangerously close to sparking World War III.
A Soviet surface action group led by the nuclear battlecruiser Kirov steams just off the U.S. East Coast. The Americans intend to send a message — back off. A hundred Air Force fighters fly toward Kirov, seeming to the battlecruiser’s radar operators like an “alpha strike,” a major aerial anti-ship raid.
“It was exactly that — and a feint,” Clancy writes. “The real mission belonged to the low-level team of four.” That is, a flight of four A-10s from the Maryland Air National Guard, which today still operates the type in real life.
Armed with a full load of depleted-uranium ammunition for their 30-millimeter cannons plus underwing Rockeye cluster bombs, the Warthogs of Linebacker flight fly just 100 feet above the waves in order to stay off Kirov’s radar screens, their part-time pilots observing radio silence to complete their stealthy profiles.
The lead A-10 pilot, Richardson, is an airline captain by day. “So far as he knew, the Hog had never been used for maritime strike missions,” Clancy describes Richardson thinking. “It was no surprise she’d be good at it. Her antitank munitions would be effective against ships. Her cannon slugs and Rockeye clusters were designed to shred armored battle tanks, and he had no doubts what they would do to thin-hulled warships.
“Too bad this wasn’t for real. It was about time somebody taught Ivan a lesson.”
Approaching the Soviet ships, an Air Force E-3 Sentry radar early-warning plane guiding them via one-way radio messages, the A-10s spread out across a 30-mile long formation. Soviet radars begin to ping them.
Richardson “began to maneuver his aircraft radically, jinking up, down, left, right, in no particular pattern. It was only a game, but there was no sense in giving Ivan an easy time.”
Five hundred yards from Kirov, Richardson flips a switch, releasing decoy flares from his jet’s countermeasures pod. “All four Linebacker aircraft acted within seconds. Suddenly Kirov was inside a box of blue-white magnesium light. Richardson pulled back on his stick, banking into a climbing turn past the battlecruiser.
“The brilliant light dazzled him, but he could see the graceful lines of the Soviet warship as she was turning hard on the choppy seas, her men running along the deck like ants.”
If we were serious, you’d all be dead now — get the message? Richardson thinks.

Offline fathertime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9864
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4505 on: May 03, 2016, 08:39:55 PM »

Finally, just to clarify on your logic: so if you were the leader of a nation that felt threatened by the world's largest and most modern standing army, you would allow them to establish a base inside your borders?


I don't see why you don't understand that maybe Russia doesn't fear the USA/NATO militarily that much...They know we aren't going to try to risk invading them.    Once you understand that point, it should be obvious that temporarily allowing a base in their territory didn't create much, if any risk to them, and since by your admission they received some pretty good benefits out of it..then the question is WHy not?   They scored some bucks, and kicked us out when it wasn't worth it to them any longer.


If you are using the fact that NATO temporarily had a military base in Russia as your foundation for saying that they aren't being surrounded, and put in a weaker position overall, then I think you need better evidence than the temporary military base in Russia.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline msmobyone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1141
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • patriotism is the last vestige of fools, but hey
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Committed > 1 year
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4506 on: May 04, 2016, 12:08:01 AM »

I don't see why you don't understand that maybe Russia doesn't fear the USA/NATO militarily that much...They know we aren't going to try to risk invading them.   

I see you've never been to Russia or watched Russian tv or discussed NATO   ;expanding' to Russia's borders as a threat.. Many Russians don't 'get' that it is mostly nations that have been occupied by former Moscow regimes and seek protection from aggression from Moscow. Ukraine was never interested in Nato membership - until Crimea..


Instead of coming across something on the internet - you might like to absorb what folks - who  know a deal more about how things are 'here'  - try to point out ...

Your efforts to 'play devil's advocate' are feeble and simply demonstrate 'cluelessness' about the Russian psyche upon which the current leadership play.

It's coming up to MAY 9th and the day Stalin set - even if it is two days late- to commemorate those who were sacrificed ... It is now illegal in Russian law to denigrate the Soviet war effort.

If I'm here - I was asked IF I'll go to watch the parades... I initially thought 'no' - as I felt such parades promote unthinking patriotism - then I remember that I've stood under  UK Flag to commemorate the fallen.

I do not see the need to demonstrate new war kit - I prefer how the Brits do it ... maybe a restored Spitfire/ Hurricane flying over..











« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 12:12:55 AM by msmobyone »
Please excuse the Curmudgeon in my posts ..he will be cured by being reunited with his loved one ;)

Offline mendeleyev

  • RWD Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4507 on: May 04, 2016, 01:37:09 AM »
Quote
I don't see why you don't understand that maybe Russia doesn't fear the USA/NATO militarily that much


I see that you do not understand Russia at all. Come and visit sometime. To lessen your obvious ignorance I'd encourage you to visit a couple of buildings along Варварских Ворот and Старая Площадь (Old Square) just off the Kremlin, specifically buildings 4 and 8. Those house some of the most important staff of the Presidential Administration. You will not even get close to entering, but many of those folk are smokers and I'd suggest that you confront a few to find out what they think of the possibility of a looming war with the West.

You are far more naive than I originally assumed.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 01:40:44 AM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline mendeleyev

  • RWD Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4508 on: May 04, 2016, 02:08:47 AM »
Quote
making Russia the bad guy is easy Propaganda as most Americans are simply stupid.
I sense that you are among friends, if that is the case.

Russia, specifically the government, is a bad guy--just ask most of Moscow's neighbors.

The USA is far from perfect, but I always find it fascinating that many of the same citizens on the street who buy into the propaganda, still dream of either visiting, or moving to, America.

Later this month I'm scheduled to have dinner with the director of one of the Radisson Hotels in Moscow. He has never been to the West, but he dreams of visiting the USA. He has never seen an American football game in person, but he is an avid NFL fan who can recite trivia, has an opinion on which players certain teams should pick in the draft, and during the season he knows the win-loss record for every team and even which coaches are in trouble. He loves soccer (real football) and hockey, but is an NFL addict. I will have some surprises for him (a few Cardinals items, and a couple of Bronco Super Bowl collectibles) when we meet.

He stays up nights (time zone differences) to watch the hacked games off television satellite systems.

Some months ago we were enjoying a breakfast meet-up, and he surprised me with the question of what the NFL does in time of war? It took a moment, but it revealed that he worried what would happen to some NFL stars should the USA and Russia kick off a world conflict. In that culture, every able bodied adult, especially athletic males, would be at the front lines in no time. I didn't know whether to openly chuckle (bad form among Russians) or give him a serious answer. I suppressed my natural reaction and tried to look serious for a moment before replying that I hope this never happens. On that we could agree.

I understand that some guys hate Russians these days, and I try to understand their frustration over the war in Eastern Ukraine, but I find much to admire and love in ordinary Russian people. For a time I was there in the East periodically, and it was deeply depressing. I had to learn quickly to figure out, very quickly, who was a coal miner with a gun, and who was a professional fighter stripped of Russian identification. For what it is worth, and this was especially true in the early stages of that war, the coal miners playing soldier were far more dangerous to me than the boys who had driven their tanks and BUK systems across the border while on holiday.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 02:12:36 AM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline fathertime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9864
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4509 on: May 04, 2016, 06:39:40 AM »

I see that you do not understand Russia at all. Come and visit sometime. To lessen your obvious ignorance I'd encourage you to visit a couple of buildings along Варварских Ворот and Старая Площадь (Old Square) just off the Kremlin, specifically buildings 4 and 8. Those house some of the most important staff of the Presidential Administration. You will not even get close to entering, but many of those folk are smokers and I'd suggest that you confront a few to find out what they think of the possibility of a looming war with the West.

You are far more naive than I originally assumed.


So rather than explain your 'logic' regarding why NATO was allowed to briefly have military base within Russia, you have decided to ride on the 'naive' train again!  I have already provided the logic that Russia obviously wasn't THAT concerned about a military attack, or they wouldn't have permitted the base.  YOU have attempted to use that defunct base as a foundation for saying that it proves that Russia isn't at all concerned about NATO.  I hold the position that they are concerned about alliances like NATO, just not so much militarily, as the countries tend to stick together non-militarily and that can produce harm to Russia, as it is currently. 


My original point remains.  If you can explain how a former military base within Russia (which they received great benefit from) disproves that the West is trying to surround/dominate Russia as much as possible it would at least allow people to see where you are coming from.  So far the leap you made is on shaky ground. 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline HoundDaddyLee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 382
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: 4 - 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4510 on: May 04, 2016, 06:57:12 AM »


Some months ago we were enjoying a breakfast meet-up, and he surprised me with the question of what the NFL does in time of war? It took a moment, but it revealed that he worried what would happen to some NFL stars should the USA and Russia kick off a world conflict. In that culture, every able bodied adult, especially athletic males, would be at the front lines in no time. I didn't know whether to openly chuckle (bad form among Russians) or give him a serious answer. I suppressed my natural reaction and tried to look serious for a moment before replying that I hope this never happens. On that we could agree.





Mendy,


During WWII and the Korean war many professional baseball players served in the armed forces. Ted Williams flew planes during both conflicts. This had a negative impact on his lifetime playing statistics. NFL player, Pat Tillman, walked away from a promising NFL career to be join the army. He eventually went to Ranger school. He was killed in a friendly fire incident in Afghanistan in 2004.


I think we all pray that a total war between Russian and NATO never happens. But I would imagine many professional athletes would join and fight.


HDL

Offline jone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7281
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Committed > 1 year
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4511 on: May 04, 2016, 08:19:51 AM »

So rather than explain your 'logic' regarding why NATO was allowed to briefly have military base within Russia, you have decided to ride on the 'naive' train again!  I have already provided the logic that Russia obviously wasn't THAT concerned about a military attack, or they wouldn't have permitted the base.  YOU have attempted to use that defunct base as a foundation for saying that it proves that Russia isn't at all concerned about NATO.  I hold the position that they are concerned about alliances like NATO, just not so much militarily, as the countries tend to stick together non-militarily and that can produce harm to Russia, as it is currently. 


My original point remains.  If you can explain how a former military base within Russia (which they received great benefit from) disproves that the West is trying to surround/dominate Russia as much as possible it would at least allow people to see where you are coming from.  So far the leap you made is on shaky ground. 


Fathertime!


I understand him quite clearly.  Russia has used NATO as their whipping boy in this current crisis with their people.  (Someone has to be the bad boy.  For the Germans, it was the Jews.)  When the Ukrainian conflict started Russia proclaimed it was to protect the Russian speaking people in Ukraine.  This was the same reason used by the Germans when they went into the Sudetendland.  Logic would have dictated that after Krim, Russia would have secured its new territory and left Ukraine alone.  You stated this yourself in your WIN/WIN prognostication. 

But that was not enough.  Russia was losing the hearts and minds of its former Soviet Republic partners (minions) and wished to establish a zone of influence in Eastern Europe and Asia.  The reasons for this have all been discussed here to exhaustion.

Mendy is saying that NATO considered Russia a partner in Europe.  Russia attended NATO military meetings and, as stated, even invited NATO to maintain a base inside of Russia.   For awhile, it was even contemplated that the greater threat to peace was what the Chinese would do.    In that scenario, it would have been better if Russia were a member of NATO.  Tom Clancy even wrote a whimsical book about this scenario in which Russia joins NATO.  If you are interested, it is called:  "The Bear and the Dragon".

There are many mentions that Russia is upset that NATO violated tacit treaties in bringing the Baltics, Poland and other countries into NATO.  But Russia is all about posturing, especially now.  The Budapest Memorandum was signed to allow countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus to surrender their nuclear weapons and still have protections of territorial integrity. Russia violated that Memorandum and signed assurance by annexing Krim.

But when you do something really naughty, the best thing to do to defend yourself is to say that you were provoked.  Russia has to claim the NATO is infringing (they are - but previously not in a confrontational way) by continuing to accept Eastern European countries.   In order to make this a bad thing, they have to scare the hell out of their people at home.

Below are highlights of joint cooperation which are included in the NATO website.  Note the non-belligerence leading up to the Ukrainian incursion:

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50090.htm

Relations started after the end of the Cold War, when Russia joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace programme (1994).

The 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act provided the formal basis for relations.
Dialogue and cooperation were strengthened in 2002 with the establishment of the NATO-Russia Council (NRC) to serve as a forum for consultation on current security issues and to direct practical cooperation in a wide range of areas.

Russia's disproportionate military action in Georgia in August 2008 led to the suspension of formal meetings of the NRC and cooperation in some areas, until spring 2009. The Allies continue to call on Russia to reverse its recognition of the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states.

All practical civilian and military cooperation under the NRC with Russia was suspended in April 2014 in response to the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

At the Wales Summit in September 2014, NATO leaders condemned Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine and demanded that Russia comply with international law and its international obligations and responsibilities; end its illegal and illegitimate occupation ‘annexation’ of Crimea; refrain from aggressive actions against Ukraine; withdraw its troops; halt the flow of weapons, equipment, people and money across the border to the separatists; and stop fomenting tension along and across the Ukrainian border.

In April 2016, almost two years after the last meeting of the NRC, NRC members agree to convene a meeting.


More background information

Response to the Russia-Ukraine conflict
Key areas of cooperation prior to April 2014
Framework for cooperation
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline fathertime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9864
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4512 on: May 04, 2016, 08:28:17 AM »

I understand him quite clearly.  Russia has used NATO as their whipping boy in this current crisis with their people.  (Someone has to be the bad boy.  For the Germans, it was the Jews.)  When the Ukrainian conflict started Russia proclaimed it was to protect the Russian speaking people in Ukraine.  This was the same reason used by the Germans when they went into the Sudetendland.  Logic would have dictated that after Krim, Russia would have secured its new territory and left Ukraine alone.  You stated this yourself in your WIN/WIN prognostication. 

But that was not enough.  Russia was losing the hearts and minds of its former Soviet Republic partners (minions) and wished to establish a zone of influence in Eastern Europe and Asia.  The reasons for this have all been discussed here to exhaustion.

Mendy is saying that NATO considered Russia a partner in Europe.  Russia attended NATO military meetings and, as stated, even invited NATO to maintain a base inside of Russia.   For awhile, it was even contemplated that the greater threat to peace was what the Chinese would do.    In that scenario, it would have been better if Russia were a member of NATO.  Tom Clancy even wrote a whimsical book about this scenario in which Russia joins NATO.  If you are interested, it is called:  "The Bear and the Dragon".

There are many mentions that Russia is upset that NATO violated tacit treaties in bringing the Baltics, Poland and other countries into NATO.  But Russia is all about posturing, especially now.  The Budapest Memorandum was signed to allow countries like Ukraine, Kazakhstan and Belarus to surrender their nuclear weapons and still have protections of territorial integrity. Russia violated that Memorandum and signed assurance by annexing Krim.

But when you do something really naughty, the best thing to do to defend yourself is to say that you were provoked.  Russia has to claim the NATO is infringing (they are - but previously not in a confrontational way) by continuing to accept Eastern European countries.   In order to make this a bad thing, they have to scare the hell out of their people at home.

Below are highlights of joint cooperation which are included in the NATO website.  Note the non-belligerence leading up to the Ukrainian incursion:

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/topics_50090.htm

Relations started after the end of the Cold War, when Russia joined the North Atlantic Cooperation Council (1991) and the Partnership for Peace programme (1994).

The 1997 NATO-Russia Founding Act provided the formal basis for relations.
Dialogue and cooperation were strengthened in 2002 with the establishment of the NATO-Russia Council (NRC) to serve as a forum for consultation on current security issues and to direct practical cooperation in a wide range of areas.

Russia's disproportionate military action in Georgia in August 2008 led to the suspension of formal meetings of the NRC and cooperation in some areas, until spring 2009. The Allies continue to call on Russia to reverse its recognition of the Georgian regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as independent states.

All practical civilian and military cooperation under the NRC with Russia was suspended in April 2014 in response to the Russia-Ukraine conflict.

At the Wales Summit in September 2014, NATO leaders condemned Russia’s military intervention in Ukraine and demanded that Russia comply with international law and its international obligations and responsibilities; end its illegal and illegitimate occupation ‘annexation’ of Crimea; refrain from aggressive actions against Ukraine; withdraw its troops; halt the flow of weapons, equipment, people and money across the border to the separatists; and stop fomenting tension along and across the Ukrainian border.

In April 2016, almost two years after the last meeting of the NRC, NRC members agree to convene a meeting.


More background information

Response to the Russia-Ukraine conflict
Key areas of cooperation prior to April 2014
Framework for cooperation


Appreciated the reasoned response. Time at the moment won't permit me to comment in dept for the time being.


I don't know that it fully addresses the precise comment regarding the temporary military base in Russia, but i'll await what Mendelelev  has to really say. 


Thanks,
Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline mendeleyev

  • RWD Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4513 on: May 04, 2016, 10:00:01 AM »

Appreciated the reasoned response. Time at the moment won't permit me to comment in dept for the time being.


I don't know that it fully addresses the precise comment regarding the temporary military base in Russia, but i'll await what Mendelelev  has to really say. 


Thanks,
Fathertime!


Jone's explanation was far better than any of my attempts to educate you.

On June 20, Russia was present, along with everyone else as scheduled in Brussels for the regular meeting of the NATO-Russia Council (NRC). It was the first time in two years, since the illegal annexation of Crimea, that the two sides had met formally, however since 1997, Russia has had a permanent representative at NATO.

Russia has formal observer status inside NATO--that has been just one part of NATO's attempt to assure Russia that NATO is not planning a conflict. Logic follows that if you are planning to conquer your neighbor, that you don't invite him to the planning sessions.

However, there are two problems with this logic. The first is as Jone explained, it is too easy to use NATO as a whipping boy to the audience back at home. In fact, do you suppose that the average Russian knows that Russia is a permanent member of this council? I will answer that for you: no, they do not.

The Kremlin needs to continue using NATO as a scapegoat for anything that goes wrong in Russia, like the incident several months ago when a building elevator malfunctioned. Because it had been built (years ago) in Germany, some Russian media outlet were suggesting that there might have been a NATO plot to kill Russians randomly with malfunctioning elevator lifts.

Do you imagine that the average Russian knows even a hint of the fact that the Kremlin signed off on the new structure (pictured below) of strategies for cooperation with NATO? No, because the Kremlin needs a whipping boy.

Nato Russia council height=603
The other difficulty with "logic" is that Russians do not always think like Westerners. Very often their "logic" is Eastern, which can be very different from Western norms. The old saying of "scratch a Russian and underneath you'll find a Tatar" is often very true.

Under this new structure, instead of meeting as "NATO + 1" (Russia was the 1), the new agreement is designed to give Russia more input into NATO activities. The new designation is called "at 29" as if Russia were the 29th member. Despite Russia's participation in and agreement to this new structure, the Russian defence ministry issued a statement that the meetings (while omitting the fact that Russia had participated) were provocative and dangerous.

Do you suppose that the average Russian knows that NATO has a permanent office in Moscow, on ул. Мытная adjacent to the Belgium Embassy? Despite the fact that Russia is deeper into NATO than they like to admit, there are many Kremlin insiders who are firmly convinced that NATO is up to something, and the fact that they can't identify that something makes them even more suspicious.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 10:02:01 AM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

Offline TigerPaws

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1443
  • Country: um
  • Gender: Male
  • 16 years together & still very much in love
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4514 on: May 04, 2016, 12:08:38 PM »
Lets be honest both the U.S. (and by default NATO) nd Russia use each other for internal and external propaganda.

As for the illegal annexation of Crimea, tell that to Israel when they captured Jerusalem and made it their capitol. Israel will go to war and if necessary use Thermonuclear weapons before ever leaving Jerusalem. Get over it Crimea now belongs to Russia, are you really advocating going to war to get it back? 

Offline AkMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1873
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4515 on: May 04, 2016, 05:36:58 PM »
More Bad news for Russia :crackwhip:

Spain finished 10 year probe into Russian mob connections. Arrest warrants were  issued for several of the Huilomeister's closest buddies. A former prime minister, its former defense minister, its current deputy prime minister, and the current chair of its legislature's finance committee are tied to the mob.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/04/spain-issues-arrest-warrants-for-russian-officials-close-to-putin

Offline Anotherkiwi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4089
  • Country: nz
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: 1 - 3
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4516 on: May 04, 2016, 05:54:21 PM »
More Bad news for Russia :crackwhip:

Spain finished 10 year probe into Russian mob connections. Arrest warrants were  issued for several of the Huilomeister's closest buddies. A former prime minister, its former defense minister, its current deputy prime minister, and the current chair of its legislature's finance committee are tied to the mob.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/may/04/spain-issues-arrest-warrants-for-russian-officials-close-to-putin

I would guess that it's yet another exercise in futility.  None of these people are likely to set foot outside Russia anyway, and an international arrest warrant should certainly stop them leaving home.  With Russia not allowing extradition of its citizens from their home soil, Spain appears to have simply created a stalemate.

Offline sleepycat

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 761
  • Country: au
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Looking 1-2 years
  • Trips: 4 - 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4517 on: May 04, 2016, 06:03:35 PM »

 Time at the moment won't permit me to comment in dept for the time being.


Did you mean to say, I need to stall for time while I try to google up some fluff to paste here?
 :popcorn:

Offline AkMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1873
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4518 on: May 04, 2016, 07:29:08 PM »
Eyes wide open!

Offline AkMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1873
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4519 on: May 04, 2016, 08:00:30 PM »
Portugal has put a stop in even more Russian mob money laundering. This time by buying football clubs and ownership thru offshore shell companies.  :rolleyes:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36203418

Offline jone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7281
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Committed > 1 year
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4520 on: May 04, 2016, 09:19:31 PM »
I see you've never been to Russia or watched Russian tv or discussed NATO   ;expanding' to Russia's borders as a threat.. Many Russians don't 'get' that it is mostly nations that have been occupied by former Moscow regimes and seek protection from aggression from Moscow. Ukraine was never interested in Nato membership - until Crimea..


Instead of coming across something on the internet - you might like to absorb what folks - who  know a deal more about how things are 'here'  - try to point out ...

Your efforts to 'play devil's advocate' are feeble and simply demonstrate 'cluelessness' about the Russian psyche upon which the current leadership play.

It's coming up to MAY 9th and the day Stalin set - even if it is two days late- to commemorate those who were sacrificed ... It is now illegal in Russian law to denigrate the Soviet war effort.

If I'm here - I was asked IF I'll go to watch the parades... I initially thought 'no' - as I felt such parades promote unthinking patriotism - then I remember that I've stood under  UK Flag to commemorate the fallen.

I do not see the need to demonstrate new war kit - I prefer how the Brits do it ... maybe a restored Spitfire/ Hurricane flying over..

Moby,

I was there last year the weekend before the anniversary.  If you went down to the mall in any city, there were memorials ongoing every day.  The St. George ribbons were everywhere.  I don't sense that same enthusiasm this year that I experienced last year.  Hopefully some people will be in situ and we can get reports. 

I live close to Torrance where parts of the Confederate Air Force reside.  On Memorial Day, it is wonderful to see the old birds fly.    I treasure that history much more than seeing the modern stuff.
Kissing girls is a goodness.  It beats the hell out of card games.  - Robert Heinlein

Offline AkMike

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1873
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: Ukraine
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4521 on: May 04, 2016, 09:24:00 PM »
In a turn about from the soviet tradition of huge displays of military might, Belarus and K-stan have decided against the Defender of the Fatherland Day or Victory Day parades.

Are they pulling further away from the Stalin-like era that Russia is falling back into.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/kazakhstan-not-to-hold-victory-day-parade/567902.html

Offline fathertime

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9864
  • Country: us
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: Married > 10 years
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4522 on: May 04, 2016, 10:18:00 PM »
I have now read and re-read both Jone's and Mendelelev's responses to the comment I made regarding the temporary NATO base in Russia, and how that military base was evidence that Russia isn't actually concerned about NATO. 


I still don't think that temporary military base provides evidence that Russia isn't concerned about NATO.  There may be other exhibits that show Russia isn't concerned about NATO, but that particular temporary base in which they received ample compensation for isn't evidence.  The base didn't pose any real threat to Russia.  Russia has nuclear weapons, and that is enough of a disincentive as is needed....But NATO nations can and do still align, and that can be problematic for Russia, but I don't think they actually worry about an invasion.   


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline msmobyone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1141
  • Country: gb
  • Gender: Male
  • patriotism is the last vestige of fools, but hey
  • Spouse's Country: Russia
  • Status: Committed > 1 year
  • Trips: > 10
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4523 on: May 04, 2016, 11:46:29 PM »
I don't think they actually worry about an invasion.   




There you go - proof positive this guy simply doesn't HAVE a clue about how Russians feel about NATO expansion...
Please excuse the Curmudgeon in my posts ..he will be cured by being reunited with his loved one ;)

Offline mendeleyev

  • RWD Advisor
  • *****
  • Posts: 5670
  • Country: ua
  • Gender: Male
  • Spouse's Country: No Selection
  • Status: No Selection
  • Trips: Resident
More Bad News for Russia
« Reply #4524 on: May 05, 2016, 01:22:13 AM »
In a prior post above I wrote:
Quote
On June 20, Russia was present, along with everyone else as scheduled in Brussels for the regular meeting of the NATO-Russia Council (NRC).


That meeting was April 20. My apologies for the typo.



Quote
Get over it Crimea now belongs to Russia, are you really advocating going to war to get it back?


Kindly point out where I have advocated going to war to get it back.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 01:37:16 AM by mendeleyev »
The Mendeleyev Journal. http://mendeleyevjournal.com Member: Congress of Russian Journalists; ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.RU (Journalist-Russia); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.UA (Journalist-Ukraine); ЖУРНАЛИСТЫ.KZ (Journalist-Kazakhstan); ПОРТАЛ ЖУРНАЛИСТОВ (Portal of RU-UA Journalists); Просто Журналисты ("Just Journalists").

 

+-RWD Stats

Members
Total Members: 8883
Latest: Leroy14
New This Month: 1
New This Week: 0
New Today: 0
Stats
Total Posts: 541017
Total Topics: 20849
Most Online Today: 2385
Most Online Ever: 12701
(January 14, 2020, 07:04:55 AM)
Users Online
Members: 11
Guests: 2221
Total: 2232

+-Recent Posts

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by Infoman
Yesterday at 09:57:04 PM

Re: Plumber earnings by Trenchcoat
Yesterday at 09:37:55 PM

Plumber earnings by ML
Yesterday at 07:49:26 PM

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by krimster2
Yesterday at 07:23:34 PM

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by Infoman
Yesterday at 06:28:48 PM

American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by 2tallbill
Yesterday at 04:48:07 PM

Re: What to do by krimster2
Yesterday at 04:37:18 PM

If you don't know what you are talking about, post away anyway by 2tallbill
Yesterday at 04:17:08 PM

Re: American With Russian Fiancé - Scheduled For K1 Interview In Warsaw, BUT.... by krimster2
Yesterday at 02:48:08 PM

Re: What to do by krimster2
Yesterday at 01:09:03 PM

Powered by EzPortal

create account