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Author Topic: The Russian/Syrian connection thread  (Read 253481 times)

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Offline Belvis

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #600 on: November 29, 2015, 02:53:52 PM »
Collateral damage, or Is it conceivable Russia would exact revenge by targeting a market?
So, before Russia were bombing the hospitals according to Syrian activists. After Russia has checked and claimed there were no hospitals in towns denounced to be bombed, the new trend appears: markets. Though I do not exclude the collateral damage, the source is the same that disclosed the ""bombed-out hospitals".
   At any case the market can't be a target for the revenge. First, Russia pursues geopolitical interests in Middle East, not revenge. Second, the revenge was implemented by intensive air- and artillery strikes in the area where the plane was shot down. A few opposition field commanders were killed in that area though it's not clear if they were connected somehow to shooting the russia pilot. And Turkey has tied hands now in that region after the attack on russian aircraft. Stupid attack left Turkey backed opposition in Latakia without any cover.
     Putin will negotiate the settlement with Turkey, and the conditions begin to appear vaguely. Turkey must step back from uncompromising demand to remove Bashar Asad from power. Turkey must refrain from support of Islamic opposition.


Offline jone

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #601 on: November 29, 2015, 03:49:18 PM »
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Offline jone

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #602 on: November 29, 2015, 03:54:36 PM »

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Offline jone

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #603 on: November 29, 2015, 04:02:34 PM »
So, before Russia were bombing the hospitals according to Syrian activists. After Russia has checked and claimed there were no hospitals in towns denounced to be bombed, the new trend appears: markets. Though I do not exclude the collateral damage, the source is the same that disclosed the ""bombed-out hospitals".
   At any case the market can't be a target for the revenge. First, Russia pursues geopolitical interests in Middle East, not revenge. Second, the revenge was implemented by intensive air- and artillery strikes in the area where the plane was shot down. A few opposition field commanders were killed in that area though it's not clear if they were connected somehow to shooting the russia pilot. And Turkey has tied hands now in that region after the attack on russian aircraft. Stupid attack left Turkey backed opposition in Latakia without any cover.
     Putin will negotiate the settlement with Turkey, and the conditions begin to appear vaguely. Turkey must step back from uncompromising demand to remove Bashar Asad from power. Turkey must refrain from support of Islamic opposition.



Personally, I don't see any difference between what Russia's airforce was doing before the shootdown to what they are doing now.  They were indiscriminately killing Turkmen before, they're indiscriminately killing Turkmen now. 

There is no leverage.  What is the Russian government going to do?  Send all of the Russian tourists to the Sinai?

I think, Belvis, you have been suckled up to the Russian propaganda teat for way to long to see the world the way everyone else sees it.  Keeping Assad in power is the last thing that the Turks appear to be willing to agree to do.

If anything, the shootdown of the Russian plane has increased the Turkish resolve and focused Turkey on the plight of the fighters they are sympathetic to.  I am not the prognosticator that the Russian press is.  Let's see how this thing turns out for your country, Belvis, shall we?


« Last Edit: November 29, 2015, 04:35:48 PM by jone »
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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #604 on: November 29, 2015, 06:03:45 PM »
Turkey must step back from uncompromising demand to remove Bashar Asad from power. Turkey must refrain from support of Islamic opposition.



The US is obviously also guilty of doing a lot to attempt to remove Assad.   Assad must be standing in the way of a lot of outside countries potential money stream or something. 


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The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #605 on: November 29, 2015, 06:28:41 PM »





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Offline BillyB

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #606 on: November 29, 2015, 06:52:23 PM »
Al Jazeera reported Russians hit a civilian market  near where the Russian plane was shot down.  The strike killed over 40 in the market. 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/20-killed-russian-air-strike-syrian-market-151129082103978.html


Collateral damage, or Is it conceivable Russia would exact revenge by targeting a market?


This is not the first time Russia hit markets. One market selling used cars was hit a few days ago. Those used cars deserved to be punished. Actually many of those markets are used as a way the rebels/terrorists exchange goods and money. Russia wants to cut that source of income and access to Toyotas off but unfortunately a lot of collateral damage is going to happen.


The US is obviously also guilty of doing a lot to attempt to remove Assad.   Assad must be standing in the way of a lot of outside countries potential money stream or something. 



Out of all the countries, Russia has most control and will have influence over Syria when it's all said and done. Whether Russia lets Assad continue to rule Syria or install another puppet, that leader will have to be extremely ruthless and feared to keep all the different factions in line. Anybody thought to be associating with the terrorists or rebels will be executed. I hate to be living in Syria when it's all said and done.
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Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #607 on: November 29, 2015, 09:23:32 PM »

The US is obviously also guilty of doing a lot to attempt to remove Assad.   Assad must be standing in the way of a lot of outside countries potential money stream or something. 


"...guilty of doing a lot...."  Just the opposite. 

" In 2012 Mr. Obama rebuffed plans to arm Syrian rebels despite the fact that his former secretaries of defense and state, his C.I.A. director and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff supported them. He repeatedly insisted he would not put American soldiers in Syria or pursue a prolonged air campaign. He refused to declare safe havens or no-fly zones. And it was also in 2012 that Mr. Obama warned the Syrian president, Bashar al-Assad, that using chemical weapons would cross a “red line.” Yet when Mr. Assad did just that, Mr. Obama did nothing."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/28/opinion/president-obamas-hypocrisy-on-syria.html?_r=0

Three American models for dealing with tyrannical dictators killing their own people:  Iraq (troops and air), Libya (air and arm the rebels), and Syria (diplomacy).    Sounds like Libya is so far the least costly in terms of civilian deaths.   Will need to recount every 10 years as this unfolds over the 21st C and on.   

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #608 on: November 30, 2015, 07:02:48 AM »



If left up to a bozo Republican like McCain/Graham we would most certainly have troops and larger wars in a few different places by now. I'm pretty sure a few of the other mainstream Republican candidates would react similarly.  A good thing about having a divided government is the partisans are too busy trying to thwart each other to actually get too aggressive abroad.   


U.S. senators call for 20,000 troops in Syria and Iraq
 

Two senior U.S. senators called on Sunday for Washington to nearly triple military force levels in Iraq to 10,000 and send an equal number of troops to Syria as part of a multinational ground force to counter Islamic State in both countries.

Republicans John McCain and Lindsey Graham criticized.......
 



http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/29/us-mideast-crisis-usa-military-idUSKBN0TI0US20151129#ehfv3h3sOfMwWCVh.97
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Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #609 on: November 30, 2015, 08:05:33 AM »


If left up to a bozo Republican like McCain/Graham we would most certainly have troops and larger wars in a few different places by now.


Did you forget already the lesson Muzh taught you that withdrawal is not the answer?  The situation is highly complex, so let us work through the options. 

Option 1 - Status Quo

Some evidence indicates the existing bombing campaigns are working to erode ISIS.    Bombing has killed upwards of 25,000 ISIS fighters.  Bombing will also reduce oil revenue.  Further, reports say some of  the local population is becoming disgruntled with ISIS governance.  So the tide may turn with  10 additional years of bombing combined with some sort of siege to prevent resupply.    A siege will require troops however. 

Option 2 - Troops from Sunni Nations

The  military defeat of ISIS will  take troops on the ground.  Yes?    Troops are needed not just to CLEAR but to CONTROL afterwards.  Yes?

The primary troops must be Sunni because the territory to be controlled is Sunni.  The Kurds will eventually take care of their own areas but will not advance into Sunni lands. 

How many Sunni nations have lined up to send troops into Syria?  That answer would be none.  What has the Iraqi military done in Iraq? That answer would be nothing.  The two senators feel  the status quo will not defeat ISIS, and ISIS will endeavor to expand the battlefront to other countries including the West. 

These senators assert that if America takes the lead, Iraq and Sunni nations will follow and do most of the work.  Based on what I have seen, I am not sure Iraq and other nations will do most of the work.

Option 3 - Russia

One alternative is to keep Assad in power and let his sect defeat ISIS.  The Russians would support him, of course.   I did not see Putin jumping at the opportunity when Hollande asked Putin for help.  Who would make the Assad oppositions groups stand down to allow Assad to pass and confront ISIS?  Anything short of some UN ceasefire and elections would probably not compel the rebels to stop fighting Assad.  A UN brokered settlement will take maybe 10 years, and meanwhile ISIS continues to outsource. 

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #610 on: November 30, 2015, 08:20:11 AM »
Did you forget already the lesson Muzh taught you that withdrawal is not the answer?  The situation is highly complex, so let us work through the options. 

 


Don't know what you referring to regarding Muzh.   My belief remains that US troops would be a bad idea, and if they were on the ground, their actual goal would be regime change in Syria..


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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #611 on: November 30, 2015, 08:30:16 AM »

Don't know what you referring to regarding Muzh.

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=20281.msg418609#msg418609

You don't even realize that you need help!

Quote
My belief remains that US troops would be a bad idea, and if they were on the ground, their actual goal would be regime change in Syria..

So Assad should keep doing what he has been doing?  A barrel bomb here, a little sarin there.

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #612 on: November 30, 2015, 09:22:18 AM »
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=20281.msg418609#msg418609

You don't even realize that you need help!

So Assad should keep doing what he has been doing?  A barrel bomb here, a little sarin there.

So it seems you are advocating regime change through the use of U.S. Ground troops.  I oppose this.   

The Assad regime is probably using the technology it has.  We use drones and often kill indescriminately.  It is a war and the leadership is fighting the fight tooth and nail just as the U.S. Backed 'Rebels' are.


As far as I recall chemical weapons usage has been used by groups opposed to Assad. 

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Offline Gator

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #613 on: November 30, 2015, 12:58:38 PM »
So it seems you are advocating regime change through the use of U.S. Ground troops.  I oppose this.   

There you go again, jumping to conclusions, and each time your conclusion is wrong.

To review, earlier you stated that Obama is bombing Assad.  I corrected you. 

Yesterday,   you wrote, "US is obviously also guilty of doing a lot to attempt to remove Assad."  I corrected you again, saying Obama has done very little other than make speeches; he even went against the advice of his Cabinet to arm the rebels. 

Now you write I am advocating the use of US ground troops to remove Assad.  Not only are you wrong, that would be the most preposterous step ever taken in the  Middle East.  It was preposterous before Putin came to the aid of Assad, and now that Putin is backing Assad with his military you believe I would advocate US troops attacking Russian positions.   

Maybe Belvis will join this and explain why only an idiot or crazed person would think such.  Here's a clue:  escalation to thermonuclear war. 

You are the one saying "no regime change" and  I just reminded you that Assad is one of the world's SOBs killing hundreds of thousands of his people and forcing a massive refugee crises.  You are probably the only person in the West who believes Assad should stay. 

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #614 on: November 30, 2015, 01:10:05 PM »

The Assad regime is probably using the technology it has.  We use drones and often kill indescriminately.  It is a war and the leadership is fighting the fight tooth and nail just as the U.S. Backed 'Rebels' are.

When I corrected you yesterday, you did not listen.  Why do you expect anyone to listen to you when ignore indisputable fact?.  The US is not backing the rebels other than with political support.   There may have been small shipments of arms sent from Libya, yet no one has found evidence of such.  But that would not fit your Johnny one-note  cry of no-intervention, so you make shit up. 


Quote
As far as I recall chemical weapons usage has been used by groups opposed to Assad. 

A word of advice, don't trust your recall.   Actually, such an  accusation was made by Assad's forces.  Yet an investigation found nothing. 

Offline BillyB

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #615 on: November 30, 2015, 01:22:16 PM »
My belief remains that US troops would be a bad idea, and if they were on the ground, their actual goal would be regime change in Syria..



Regime changes in the Arab world was happening due to Arab Spring. Revolutions were happening and changes were likely. America had a choice to have a say in who is going to run Syria. Certainly it's stupid for Obama to do nothing and have leadership that would be hostile to America. If America did more in Syria, Russia would not have intervened but Putin realized Obama is weak and seen opportunity so in the end, Russia will have a say who will run Syria due to their willingness to put boots on the ground. If by a small chance the West gets to install leadership there when it's over, then you can be sure the West traded Ukraine to Russia in order to Russia to back off.


Nations and empires have promoted regime change all throughout history. Bad? Evil? It's just a fact of life and we need to deal in reality. France wanted new leadership in America's colonies. They supplied training and weapons to the Colonists to expel the British Empire. Syria is very unstable at this moment and unfortunately the most violent and unstable people emerge victors unless there is intervention from outside sources. America failed to take the lead. Putin will do what Obama won't.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #616 on: November 30, 2015, 01:29:24 PM »
Fathertime, if you are such a non-interventionist, why do you intervene in these discussions with idiotic statements? 

I offer you a challenge to demonstrate your political acumen.  If you can answer the  questions below, I give you some hope.  All are quick, simple answers save the final one.  I'd love to hear your response to it.   Any indirect or vague answer is proof that you don't know shit!

1.  Who has killed more of his  people, Assad or  Gaddafi?

2.  Who was working with the West, Assad or  Gaddafi?

3.  Who voluntarily gave up his WMD program, Assad or  Gaddafi?

4.  Who was aligned with Iran, Assad or  Gaddafi?

5.  Assuming  one leader and only one  had to be removed, who deserved regime change the most, Syria or Libya?

6.  Why did the US make the decision it did (military intervention in Libya and diplomacy in Syria)?

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #617 on: November 30, 2015, 01:34:58 PM »


Yesterday,   you wrote, "US is obviously also guilty of doing a lot to attempt to remove Assad."  I corrected you again, saying Obama has done very little other than make speeches; he even went against the advice of his Cabinet to arm the rebels. 

 

Your post is full of misstatements of which I will only pick out a couple.
The US has been doing things behind the scenes to attempt to remove Assad, through the CIA they have been arming 'Rebels'.... Not as much as some war hawks would like, but they are involved.  Many of the weapons have 'accidently' wound up in the hands of ISIS.



Now you write I am advocating the use of US ground troops to remove Assad.
 

 
I must correct  you here in how you stated that I accused you of something..  I used the word SEEMED, which indicates uncertainty as it pertained to your position.  That should clear this up for you. 


You are the one saying "no regime change" and  I just reminded you that Assad is one of the world's SOBs killing hundreds of thousands of his people and forcing a massive refugee crises.  You are probably the only person in the West who believes Assad should stay. 


Haha!   There are a LOT of people that think Assad should stay, including the local Syrians here that support Assad.  You are woefully mistaken to think your position is unanimous, it is far from it. 

You are also distorting the war by making a generic statement like "Assad is killing 100's of 1000's", but you are entitled to that view.  Many others see it differently, and Assad is seen as heroically doing what he has been forced to do...in part once again by US interference and fomenting. 




A word of advice, don't trust your recall.   Actually, such an  accusation was made by Assad's forces.  Yet an investigation found nothing. 


As usual, the facts are different from what you are attempting to purport. 

Here is a newslink from today, which I find to be more believable than what you are saying:

http://news.yahoo.com/syria-denies-ever-using-chemical-weapons-civil-war-001637523.html


Fathertime!   

 




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Offline fathertime

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #618 on: November 30, 2015, 01:40:22 PM »
Fathertime, if you are such a non-interventionist, why do you intervene in these discussions with idiotic statements? 

I offer you a challenge to demonstrate your political acumen.  If you can answer the  questions below, I give you some hope.  All are quick, simple answers save the final one.  I'd love to hear your response to it.   Any indirect or vague answer is proof that you don't know shit!

1.  Who has killed more of his  people, Assad or  Gaddafi?

2.  Who was working with the West, Assad or  Gaddafi?

3.  Who voluntarily gave up his WMD program, Assad or  Gaddafi?

4.  Who was aligned with Iran, Assad or  Gaddafi?

5.  Assuming  one leader and only one  had to be removed, who deserved regime change the most, Syria or Libya?

6.  Why did the US make the decision it did (military intervention in Libya and diplomacy in Syria)?

Who cares about your little questionnaire?  If you have basic questions like this, you need to look up the answers yourself!   

Overall I'd say many of your statements are idiotic, just toeing the Western line as usual....and angry that there are other sensible viewpoints to counter.    Too bad that you don't like me intervening in your phony narrative, because I enjoy putting it out there. 

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #619 on: November 30, 2015, 01:48:47 PM »
There are a LOT of people that think Assad should stay, including the local Syrians here that support Assad. 



There's not enough people willing to die to keep Assad in power. If the West and Russia didn't intervene, Assad would be eventually toppled. The most violent of the radicals will probably be top dogs and re-educated and harvest the remaining population to enact their agenda, which is to kill the infidels in the West. If you were a leader of a major power such as America or Russia, would you intervene or allow radicals to take power? You're either going to have to deal with them now or later.


Years ago, I remember a discussion on Syria and many posters here, liberal and conservative, were on your side. They didn't believe in helping anybody in Syria. I said America should help our friends over there and some didn't believe there wasn't any good rebels over there that deserved help. One should think what would happen if ISIS was in charge of an entire nation to use as they wish.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #620 on: November 30, 2015, 01:52:51 PM »

Regime changes in the Arab world was happening due to Arab Spring. Revolutions were happening and changes were likely. America had a choice to have a say in who is going to run Syria. Certainly it's stupid for Obama to do nothing and have leadership that would be hostile to America. If America did more in Syria, Russia would not have intervened but Putin realized Obama is weak and seen opportunity so in the end, Russia will have a say who will run Syria due to their willingness to put boots on the ground. If by a small chance the West gets to install leadership there when it's over, then you can be sure the West traded Ukraine to Russia in order to Russia to back off.


Nations and empires have promoted regime change all throughout history. Bad? Evil? It's just a fact of life and we need to deal in reality. France wanted new leadership in America's colonies. They supplied training and weapons to the Colonists to expel the British Empire. Syria is very unstable at this moment and unfortunately the most violent and unstable people emerge victors unless there is intervention from outside sources. America failed to take the lead. Putin will do what Obama won't.

Well Billy, at least you admit what we are doing, and of course I agree with what you said.  Others would dishonestly pretend that we are strictly there to help, when we are of course there to help ourselves first and foremost.

In the case of Syria, Russia has had much stronger ties than the US, so us intervening here now is far less sensible than Russia intervention....which should be a reason for us to be very minimally involved.


There's not enough people willing to die to keep Assad in power. If the West and Russia didn't intervene, Assad would be eventually toppled.
 

I don't know about the toppling being inevitable at all, although I've been hearing it for years in the western media...obviously there are other nations besides the US and Russia also helping 'rebels' for their own reasons. 

Fathertime!   
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #621 on: November 30, 2015, 02:39:50 PM »
The worst thing to have happened to Christians and Jews in the middle east was in this last 15 years.
Quote
LIBYA: Christian Copts were fine under Gaddafi, now they’re being tortured under Obama’s boys 
http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/03/16/libya-christian-copts-were-fine-under-gaddafi-now-theyre-being-tortured-under-obamas-boys/

Quote
Why Did Assad, Saddam and Mubarak Protect Christians? 


http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/mid-easts-christians-intro/


Stated earlier..
Quote
America had a choice to have a say in who is going to run Syria.
Like in Libya? Where no one is really in charge.
Quote
we are of course there to help ourselves first and foremost.
If that were only true. Thus, it not a fact.
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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #622 on: November 30, 2015, 02:49:11 PM »
Like in Libya?



Obama only agreed to do something in Libya because Europe wanted to do something there. A not very coordinated or united NATO got rid of Ghaddafi but nobody was motivated enough to help the country succeed after that. It's a mess there. Based on Obama's inaction in Libya, Syria will end up a mess too after the war.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #623 on: November 30, 2015, 03:47:22 PM »
Assad is seen as heroically doing what he has been forced to do...

You have a twisted  definition of "hero."

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Re: The Russian/Syrian connection thread
« Reply #624 on: November 30, 2015, 04:06:54 PM »
Who cares about your little questionnaire?  If you have basic questions like this, you need to look up the answers yourself!   

The answers to all questions except the final one are widely known, yet you could not answer them.  I knew this would go above your head.  Thanks for proving you are a TROLL, and not a bright one at that.   


 
Quote
Too bad that you don't like me intervening in your phony narrative, because I enjoy putting it out there.   

This is a signed confession admitting you are a TROLL.   Some of us thought you were misguided or just stupid, but many suspected you to be  a troll.  Now we know.    Anyone who sees Assad as a hero is worse than a troll. 

 

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