Civilian Airliner Shot Down 298 Dead-- Consequences

[Gator]

LOL

[JayH]

Hey Bonehead,

You do realize that you just posted the same article I posted directly above you by Christov Grozov five days ago.    Maybe if you would actually read what I posted, you not would need to repost the same thing.  Not that it wasn't a compelling article.  It was. 


 

Yeah--I missed it!  Actually--I was focused on a different part of the story and not so much the Bellingcat link-- which incidentally--they gave numerous titles to the same story.

[JayH]

British group Bellingcat claim to have identified Russian soldiers implicated in the crash of flight MH17, shot down over eastern Ukraine in July 2014

 20 Russian soldiers involved in MH17 downing over Ukraine

Some 20 Russian soldiers - reportedly involved in downing flight MH17 over Ukraine in 2014 - have been identified. The suspects are revealed in a new report by Bellingcat, a team of investigative journalists. Dutch prosecutors say they are seriously examining the data to assess whether it can be used as evidence in the international criminal investigation.

n 2014, Bellingcat published detailed evidence suggesting the BUK missile system was brought to Ukraine by the 53rd Russian Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade, based in Kursk.

A post on the official Bellingcat Twitter page read:

"Our report is 123 pages long, and contains details we believe are too sensitive to make public during the police investigation."

http://uatoday.tv/society/bellingcat-566003.html


Bellingcat singles out 20 Russian soldiers allegedly involved in downing of MH17

The Bellingcat investigative group claims it has identified 20 Russian soldiers allegedly responsible for downing flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine in July 2014 and killing all 298 people on board.

A comprehensive report by Bellingcat – including all the suspects' names and images – was handed over to the Dutch Public Prosecution Office two weeks ago, according to Eliot Higgins, the organization’s founder.

Dutch prosecutors said they will “seriously study” the allegations made by citizen journalists.

The findings of Bellingcat’s last report, published on Oct. 8, suggested that Russia’s 53rd anti-aircraft brigade was linked to the Russian-made Buk launcher believed to have been used to down the plane. It was spotted on July 17 in an area controlled by combined Russian-separatist forces. Bellingcat has spent a year investigating the 53rd Brigade and identified over 200 soldiers’ social media profiles to track their involvement in the Buk system's transportation.

The Dutch Safety Board concluded in their final report the same month that the plane was shot down by a Buk system. The Netherlands has launched a criminal probe into those responsible for the catastrophe.

Despite the mounting evidence, Russian authorities deny the allegations. They "categorically disagree with the conclusions of the final report," Oleg Storchevoi, Russia's deputy head of the federal air transport agency, was quoted as saying in Russian media.

Higgins, however, is confident in his findings.

In e-mailed comments to the Kyiv Post, Higgins said the group had managed to boil down the number of the soldiers responsible for the downing by narrowing down the data they had on soldiers serving in 2014.

Bellingcat based their investigation on photos posted on the Internet and army data available online about personnel.

“Then (we focused on) those soldiers who were part of the June 2014 convoy we identified as containing the Buk,” Higgins said. “The 20 figure is really those individuals who would have been part of the command structure and therefore aware of what orders they had received relating to the MH17 Buk.”

There are also “dozens more soldiers” who were part of the June convoy who would be valuable witnesses for the criminal investigation, according to Higgins. All information that investigators have received was passed along to the Joint International Criminal Investigation Team, consisting of prosecutors and police agencies of Ukraine, Belgium, Australia and Malaysia.

Higgins hopes that the information will add to the investigation, but he isn't expecting Russia to offer a helpful response.

“I doubt Russia will be keen to allow their soldiers to be interviewed, and if they do the soldiers will be well briefed beforehand,” Higgins said.

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/content/ukraine-politics/bellingcat-says-20-russian-soldiers-involved-in-downing-mh17-405400.html


MH17 crash: Dutch investigators to assess new study implicating Russian soldiers

Dutch prosecutors have said they will “seriously study” claims by citizen journalists to have identified Russian soldiers implicated in the crash of flight MH17, shot down over eastern Ukraine in July 2014.

The claims have been made by a British-based group of “citizen investigative journalists” called Bellingcat, which specialises in trawling through data on social media and other open sources.

MH17 report brings some solace for families but unanswered questions remain
“We received the report just after Christmas,” Wim de Bruin, a spokesman for the Dutch prosecutor’s office, said on Sunday.

“We will seriously study it and determine whether it can be used for the criminal inquiry,” de Bruin said.

Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 was downed over war-torn eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014 by a BUK surface-to-air missile, killing all 298 onboard, air crash investigators said last October.

Western nations and Ukraine say the missile was fired from pro-Russian separatist-held territory, but Moscow denies the claim, pointing the finger instead at the Ukrainian military.

The Netherlands have launched a criminal probe into those responsible for the shooting, but many experts doubt whether it will succeed.

In 2014, Bellingcat reported that a BUK mobile launcher, spotted on July 17 in an area controlled by pro-Russian rebels, came from a military convoy from Russia’s 53rd anti-aircraft brigade – a unit based in Kursk but sent on manoeuvres near the Ukrainian border.

The launcher was later filmed again, but at least one of its missiles was missing.

In an interview with the Dutch TV channel NOS on Sunday, Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins said his organisation had now identified 20 soldiers in this brigade.

This is “probably” the group that either knows who fired or has that individual among its number, Higgins said.

The sources for this include photos posted on the Internet and army data about personnel deployment that was available online, NOS said.

It added that a redacted version of the report should be published “shortly.”

De Bruin said Dutch prosecutors had “ in contact” with Bellingcat in the past.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/04/mh17-dutch-investigators-to-study-citizen-journalist-claims-over-russians-involved-in-crash

[JayH]

The latest report, released on February 24 by the British group known as Bellingcat, links higher-ups in Russia's military chain of command to the tragedy and adds other details building on earlier investigations into the July 2014 downing of MH17.


Russian Military Command Found Linked To MH17 Downing

A team of open-source researchers investigating the crash of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 has published a report it provided to Dutch prosecutors linking the commanders of a Russian military unit to the plane’s downing.

http://www.rferl.org/content/russian-military-command-found-linked-mh17-downing-bellingcat-report/27570569.html

[JayH]

More information continues coming . It is clear enough where.who was responsible and who was in direct command of the Russian unit responsible. It is inconceivable that they acted unilaterally. Now the task is to follow the chain of command upstream .
It is easy enough to guess where the orders came from-- but proving that  will be another issue.
Regardless--the Bellingcat investigation continues filling in the gaps.

What is certain-- if the Kremlin kleptocracy is removed the information will flow.

New Vidoe of Buk Missle Carrier

May 12 reported Bellingcat founder of the appearance on the Internet with the new video installation "Buk". In recordings made car video recorder, see truck "Volvo" carrying missiles "Buk". The person who posted the video, says that it was made in Makeyevka near Donetsk, July 17, 2014 - the day of the disaster Flight MH17.

http://tsn.ua/svit/u-niderlandah-vzyali-do-uvagi-nove-video-z-bukom-z-yakogo-mogli-zbiti-litak-mn-17-648133.html

[mendeleyev]

Jay, the Dutch commission has already come to a hard conclusion that it was a Russian operation for some many reasons that anyone still truly doubting is an idiot. This Bellingcat study is helpful, but the facts are already in.

[JayH]

What Bellingcat have continued doing is investigating specifics-- and in fact have named names of those immediately involved and those in command-- and are now well advanced in moving upstream- so it is ongoing.

Also to be noted--they have continued getting more information on various specifics of the already known material  eg the very specific id numbers of the Russian equipment used that day and more sightings and locations of it's movements.

If you like-- building a case without gaps. That may or may not be important to the successful prosecution of those responsible at some later date.

[JayH]

Now-- a new concept being offered by Russia_

Russian #MH17 narrative changes to "might be brought down by accidentially launched missile"


http://twitter.com/loogunda/status/740431467357044740

[AkMike]

Yah sure...   Russian anti aircraft missiles just happen to appear in Ukraine complete with trained operators and all by themselves happen to go off at what they think is a Ukrainian military plane, (Not to mention they were bragging about it in the media) 

 It happens all the time around the world.. Just look at the media.. Hmm Come to think of it.. Maybe not

[JayH]

Report today on the Australian Prime Minister at the time Tony Abbot's reaction at the time of the Russian shooting down of MH17 and the loss of lives including 38 Australian residents.
I did write about this at the time  fwiw. To his credit-- and his immediate advisers( who sought and got views outside of traditional government circles)-- the reaction to the invasion of the Crimea,then eastern Ukraine and the shooting down of MH17 was spot on in condemning Russia.
Abbot was extremely pro- active and sought to involve other western countries. Even after being rebuffed he was very gung ho to do something.
The fact is that there was a substantial assessment made on the ground in  eastern Ukraine by Australian special forces .One very specific idea was floated  to send  very specialised units after the leaders in the east. You need to recall this was still at a time relatively early in the military conflict and at that time Ukrainian forces were doing a reasonable job. Subsequently the direct intervention of large numbers of Russian specialised troops changed the balance again.
    Like all these types of decisions there were many complications to consider politically--both internally and internationally.Words can be cheap in situations like this-but Ukraine's leaders were left in no doubt how Australia felt.The Russians were well aware of all this and was often very specific when naming Australia in the same breath as the "big" Russian bogey-The US of A !!


Tony Abbott's office floated sending Australian troops into Ukraine conflict, defence expert claims

On the MH17 response, Mr Brown said Australia's military planners "worked up options" for Mr Abbott to send as much as a brigade – about 3000 soldiers – onto Russia's doorstep to help secure the crash site, though this would have included a contribution of Dutch forces.

Previously it has been reported Mr Abbott flagged sending up to 1000 Australian troops to provide protection. In the end, Australia quietly deployed about 200 special forces soldiers in a low-key role supporting police investigators.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2016/tony-abbotts-office-floated-sending-australian-troops-into-ukraine-conflict-defence-expert-claims-20160612-gphbab.html

[ML]

More evidence of despicable Russians.

MOSCOW - A group of arms control researchers have determined that two images released by the Russian government, ostensibly to help clarify why a civilian airliner was shot down two years ago, were digitally altered using Photoshop before being posted online.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/16/world/europe/malaysia-airlines-flight-17-russia.html?_r=1

[Boethius]

The Dutch investigation has now concluded the missile that brought down Flight MH17, killing 298 people, was fired from territory held by the rebels terrorists, from a BUK missile transported to the territory from Russia.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/28/mh17-investigation-prosecutors-to-reveal-where-missile-that-down/

[Gator]

The Dutch investigation has now concluded the missile that brought down Flight MH17, killing 298 people, was fired from territory held by the rebels terrorists, from a BUK missile transported to the territory from Russia.

Finally a statement of the obvious.  The next step is to name individuals.  How can they do that?

Rebels?  Terrorists?  I do not understand the terrorist label.  To me the forces fighting the UA military seems more like rebels backed by invaders.  Or invaders supplemented with rebels.

Terrorism would involve planting bombs in Kiev, purposeful destruction of non-military targets, etc.  such that the threat of violence causes terror among the broad civilian population. 

[jone]

Russia is once again up to its disinformation campaigns.  Two days before this came out, Russia claimed it had new radar results that showed that the plane could not have been brought down by the BUK.  Instead of owning up to the mistake (it was a mistake) Russia continues to obfuscate and reject any results that show it culpable.  What amazes me is that the Russian population believes this.

If I were the Dutch, I would immediately press for an international court result that would allow next of kin to sieze Russian assets as a penalty, not only for shooting down the plane but for trying to cover up the results.

[ML]

What amazes me is that the Russian population believes this.

Two explanations:

1) Russian people are stupid, in general.
2) Russian people know exactly that the words of their government are false, but they support those words and will help further the falsehood because they are despicable people, in general.

[Boethius]

Rebels?  Terrorists?  I do not understand the terrorist label.  To me the forces fighting the UA military seems more like rebels backed by invaders.  Or invaders supplemented with rebels.

Terrorism would involve planting bombs in Kiev, purposeful destruction of non-military targets, etc.  such that the threat of violence causes terror among the broad civilian population.

The definition of terrorism -

the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal

This is exactly what the terrorists in that area did.  Those not supporting them were killed, or fled before they could be killed.

[whynotme]

Two explanations:

1) Russian people are stupid, in general.
2) Russian people know exactly that the words of their government are false, but they support those words and will help further the falsehood because they are despicable people, in general.

I wouldn't tell the same thing about all Americans, only about those who post such comments here.

(I bet my comment will be here for minutes only  )

[jone]

I wouldn't tell the same thing about all Americans, only about those who post such comments here.

(I bet my comment will be here for minutes only  )

I agree that the Russians I know (and have great affinity for) are not stupid.  And I also know that they are not despicable people. 

whynotme, why don't you tell us what you believe happened to that jet.  You speak with the authority of a learned individual from Valdivostok.  We are all curious for your take on the deed.

[whynotme]

I agree that the Russians I know (and have great affinity for) are not stupid.  And I also know that they are not despicable people. 

whynotme, why don't you tell us what you believe happened to that jet.  You speak with the authority of a learned individual from Valdivostok.  We are all curious for your take on the deed.

Believe? You may believe in Santa Claus or the god.  Did you believe in a test tube with white powder few years ago?
In this case, the facts are needed. The investigators didn't provide them in full this time again.

[jone]

Evasive answer.  After a two year investigation, a multi-national and multi-cultural team has concluded, based on evidence it collected that a BUK missile system, originating in Russia, and located at the time of the incident, in Eastern Ukraine (under the control of a government friendly and participating with the Russian government) shot down the Jet Airliner.

Your conclusion:  There is no evidence.   

And when I asked you politely, you gave a testy and smart assed answer.  I wonder why members of this board have such not nice things to say about the Russian populace?   

[Gator]

ML's two explanations are applicable to some Russian people.  The question is how many?  What percentage of the population are in the basket of deplorable Russians?

[JayH]

The full transcript of the investigation is in link below.

http://www.unian.info/world/1545342-presentation-preliminary-results-of-criminal-investigation-into-mh17-full-text.html

[JayH]

1/    Finally a statement of the obvious.  The next step is to name individuals.  How can they do that?

2/Rebels?  Terrorists?  I do not understand the terrorist label.  To me the forces fighting the UA military seems more like rebels backed by invaders.  Or invaders supplemented with rebels.

Terrorism would involve planting bombs in Kiev, purposeful destruction of non-military targets, etc.  such that the threat of violence causes terror among the broad civilian population.

1/       The answer-keep following it upstream -it is a clear enough path.Hardly likely that the guys who pulled the trigger were acting in isolation--or even the immediate command. What is far more likley that the command came from high above.My view is that Putin and everyone in the command chain is culpable.

2/   Gator-really- where have you left your brains?  The evidence of direct Russian military involvement has long ago stopped being debated- any other suggestion like you wrote here is just plain ludicrous.
Russian military were involved in the invasion of the Crimea at MINUTE ONE. In eastern Ukraine- at MINUTE ONE ! They were the organised muscle involved in many initial seizures  and as they had local thugs and moron opportunists replace them as a media front they slid away.By May 2014  the Ukrainian forces had started to make a real impact militarily and were only stopped by the enlarged and overt reinforcements and expanded equipment of the Russian military-- some of which led to the shooting down of MH-17.

For those Russophiles and sympathisers with Russia--face the reality of what the Russian government actually is  - and what the Russian people are that are responsible-- or those who fail to face the reality--there is no shade of grey about it.

[Gator]

2/   Gator-really- where have you left your brains?  The evidence of direct Russian military involvement has long ago stopped being debated- any other suggestion like you wrote here is just plain ludicrous.

 

I did not make myself clear.  I too have believed for years that the Russian military is in Ukraine in sizable force.  Did you see CNN's GPS interview with Poroshenko this past Sunday?  He gave some evidence such as a unit of Russian regulars being captured 72 km inside the border.  They claim they were lost.  Poroshenko made it perfectly clear that he can not trust Putin to keep his word. 

My point above is that I think of the Russians as invaders and now occupiers, not as terrorists cutting off heads of the infidel. 

[whynotme]

Evasive answer.  After a two year investigation, a multi-national and multi-cultural team has concluded, based on evidence it collected that a BUK missile system, originating in Russia, and located at the time of the incident, in Eastern Ukraine (under the control of a government friendly and participating with the Russian government) shot down the Jet Airliner.

Your conclusion:  There is no evidence.   

And when I asked you politely, you gave a testy and smart assed answer.  I wonder why members of this board have such not nice things to say about the Russian populace?   

That wasn't an investigation but a big fat lie, you would have to be a braindead zombie to believe that BS about "valid evidence" gathering from the Ukrainian secret service and from youtube, twitter and facebook. 
Btw, did you watch it or just read JayH posts?