Trench's Questions and Philosophies

[Boethius]

Many native Russian teachers of English, even in Moscow, are far from fluent in English even if they have a graduate degree in English from a Russian university.

'Twas always the case.  This is because in Soviet times, your position in the society and fealty to the party had more influence on whether you obtained higher education than intellect or ability.   

[JayH]

Reading about Russian "English"  reminded me of the time I arrived in Moscow to the immigration queue where the haughty tall blonde amazon examined my documents disdainfully as she looked to compare my photo and my face . She spoke to me with a heavy accent in much the manner that comedians used when mocking the Soviet era with words and a language I was not able to discern !
On making repeated explanations of not understanding her -- the questions she asked got louder and louder !

I started to see the funny side of this at about this point -- a supervisor was attracted to my gate by the noise !  She looked at my passport as the original attendant spoke to her loudly in Russian -- the supervisor then asked what language I spoke - I replied in English that I spoke English and asked  what language the original attendant was speaking to me in> >? 
This outraged her -- as she shouted at me that she was speaking English (  I was more tuned into how she spoke now and was able to discern the words through her extremely heavy accent and the way she distorted the words !)

She then told the supervisor that I did not understand English !!!  I kept thinking of John Cleese at about this stage !!
Of note- I was very familiar with Russian speakers talking in English and quite good at understanding them. --  and when speaking to them in English to talk slowly enough to help them understand me ! The supervisor who came to sort the problem out immediately understood me and I her -- with no problems !!
I thought it better to keep a straight face at this point and focus on getting out of there!!

[DaveNY]

In Soviet times, 99.99% of foreign language students never traveled abroad.  The better half attended an English language school, as that was the school in his district.  This was before the collapse of the USSR, obviously.  They learned British English.  No one from his school ever traveled abroad before the collapse.  His cousin came from a commie family (alcoholic low life father a party official), and through connections, she got into university as a student of English.  She never traveled abroad, nor did any of her classmates.  I'd assume most English language students still don't travel abroad, although the reasoning makes sense for some schools.

In 2005 (if IIRC), at my wife's school, I was helping some students fill out applications for admission to foreign universities. Most wanted to go to US or UK universities however Canada was also acceptable to some and even AU.

One student had been accepted by at least a dozen American universities including several Ivy League schools. Her desired choice was Columbia for premed, #2 was UCLA. Her English was excellent well beyond what should would have learned at school. She said her mother insisted she master English and go abroad for university. She had had a private English language tutor for several years. 

When she heard I was from NY she wanted me to talk to her mother about NY and Columbia. I didn't go to Columbia but had been to several events there and was familiar with the university and location. After she left I told my wife her family could never afford Columbia or the cost of living in NY.

A couple of days later my wife and I met with her and her mother at my wife's school. The mother was wearing a designer outfit and tens of thousands of dollars worth of jewels. The mother turned out to be quite friendly and by the time she left my wife and I learned quite a bit about her and her daughter.

Her husband had died a couple of years ago and left her substantial assets abroad. She wanted to move abroad to escape the Russian weather. Tuition at Columbia and cost of living in NY wasn't a problem she said.

Russian capitalism was beginning.   

[Boethius]

Most of the former nomenklatura educated their children abroad after the collapse.

[Sting23]

I think there's no doubt that this is the case. I see the American flag on many articles of clothing worn by teens, American movies dominate at the theaters and my coworkets love to talk about the American serials they watch online.

I've had several Russians tell me they prefer American English because it's easiier to speak, listen to and more clear, consistant and to the point.

I would disaree with the opinion that Putin is trying to limit English. It's compulsory in public schools and private English schools are eveywhere.

My Russian friends tell me the same thing, they find my accent much easier to understand.

British people tend to butcher the language. Even moby and Trench, the 2 UK guys on this forum write in a very strange, rambling style that is unpleasant to read. 

The school in Moscow where I taught uses an International curriculum that is American English based.    If you said to a student "hey mate, want some chips?  They would look at you funny.  Whereas if you said "hey buddy, want French fries? " they get it.

[SANDRO43]

Given they are the same language, with the same grammatical rules, I don't follow this.

It's not a question of grammar but rather of phonetics: normal British pronunciation is usually more clipped and faster - to name just a few of its characteristics - therefore it takes a foreigner longer to tune in to it .

On the other hand, some US accents are also hard to understand initially: e.g. it took me a while to figure that Groucho Marx meant "pearl" when he said "poyrl" - Brooklyn parlance IINM.

[Sting23]

Reading about Russian "English"  reminded me of the time I arrived in Moscow to the immigration queue where the haughty tall blonde amazon examined my documents disdainfully as she looked to compare my photo and my face . She spoke to me with a heavy accent in much the manner that comedians used when mocking the Soviet era with words and a language I was not able to discern !

HAha usually it's the men who have the heavy accents.  The girls tend to have a softer lilt.  In general it's the younger people who speak better as they have more exposure to English via the internet and movies, music...  The older ppl tend to have that thick accent.

[Boethius]

British people tend to butcher the language. Even moby and Trench, the 2 UK guys on this forum write in a very strange, rambling style that is unpleasant to read. 

This is both hilariously funny and sad (coming from an English teacher).


British people don't "butcher" their language.  moby makes the odd spelling error, likely from typing on a mobile, but his grammar is excellent, and I don't find his posts difficult to read.


Trench makes some consistent spelling errors (as do you), and doesn't break up his paragraphs well, which is why his posts are more difficult to read.

[Boethius]

HAha usually it's the men who have the heavy accents.  The girls tend to have a softer lilt.  In general it's the younger people who speak better as they have more exposure to English via the internet and movies, music...  The older ppl tend to have that thick accent.

Accent has zero to do with exposure for non native speakers.

[Boethius]

It's not a question of grammar but rather of phonetics: normal British pronunciation is usually more clipped and faster - to name just a few of its characteristics - therefore it takes a foreigner longer to tune in to it .

On the other hand, some US accents are also hard to understand initially: e.g. it took me a while to figure that Groucho Marx meant "pearl" when he said "poyrl" - Bronx lingo IINM.

Today, the news here was reporting on the Italian election.  I understood Di Maio (the gist, not everything, as I understand French), but not a word of what Renzi said.  I think it was the speed of their respective languages.

[mhr7]

Given they are the same language, with the same grammatical rules, I don't follow this.

There are many differences between the two phonemically, phonetically, lexically, and culturally. There are even differences in some of the grammar. We've been separate countries for about 250 years and, linguistically, that's a significant amount of time.

[Boethius]

There are many differences between the two phonemically, phonetically, lexically, and culturally. There are even differences in some of the grammar. We've been separate countries for about 250 years and linguistically, that's a significant amount of time.

Examples of the conciseness and broad grammatical differences please.

[Sting23]

A couple of days later my wife and I met with her and her mother at my wife's school. The mother was wearing a designer outfit and tens of thousands of dollars worth of jewels. The mother turned out to be quite friendly and by the time she left my wife and I learned quite a bit about her and her daughter.

Her husband had died a couple of years ago and left her substantial assets abroad. She wanted to move abroad to escape the Russian weather. Tuition at Columbia and cost of living in NY wasn't a problem she said.

Russian capitalism was beginning.   

DaveNY, welcome to the board.  Ah if Russian capitalism was starting then it is full fledged now.  Was in Moscow last year teaching at a private state school.  Would see Bentleys and Mercedes with drivers waiting to pick up/drop off students.  Had a few private clients and would see the lifestyle they lived.  Bodyguards, international travel, all luxury goods and gadgets galore. 

Unfortunately for the average citizen they are still stuck with subpar wages and a lower standard of living.  As a native English teacher I was probably making 4-5x more than a Russian teacher.  Even doctors there earn nothing compared to the ones in North America or western Europe.  This means there's alot of greediness and jealousy among those who are rich and the masses who aren't.

[mhr7]

Examples of the conciseness and broad grammatical differences please.

The differences aren't significant enough to be misunderstood but they do exist. One example would be that British English uses the perfect tense more often whereas Americans use past simple.

"I've already eaten breakfast."  "I already ate breakfast."

[Sting23]

The differences aren't significant enough to be misunderstood but they do exist. One example would be that British English uses the perfect tense more often whereas Americans use past simple.

"I've already eaten breakfast."  "I already ate breakfast."

If you hang around native English speakers from other countries you'll soon learn they say some things not common to you.
I remember my first tour to Europe, we had Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and Canucks all on the bus. I also roomed with a Brit and Aussie one time. 

Aussies will say "how ya goin' mate?".  and Brits say "hey love" , "blimey that was bloody brilliant mate".  Almost fell outta my chair first time I heard that hahaha.

[mhr7]

I’ve learned 3 non native languages so I do know what I’m talking about here. I have also never heard a non native speaker speak a language without an accent. I also doubt you speak Russian without an accent, but you could prove it, if you wished to.

True, in order to avoid having an accent a languge needs to be learned in childhood. Learning a language past the early teens will always result in an accent.

[msmob]

Brits say "hey love" , "blimey that was bloody brilliant mate".  Almost fell outta my chair first time I heard that hahaha.

Not THIS 'Brit' - Those are more Thames Estuary English ..Sadly, it is spreading ever west and northwards


In Derby you'd hear, "me Duck", for love ..

As you have told us - you only saw SE England - and Dublin is 'part of Britain' - according to you ...   

[SANDRO43]

Today, the news here was reporting on the Italian election.  I understood Di Maio (the gist, not everything, as I understand French), but not a word of what Renzi said.  I think it was the speed of their respective languages.

Di Maio speaks with a mild Neapolitan accent, while Renzi's is Florentine and faster.

[SANDRO43]

Was in Moscow last year teaching at a private state school.

Isn't that an oxymoron ?

[SANDRO43]

Those are more Thames Estuary English

I am not familiar with the accents in Essex and Kent, but in London our neighbourhood greengrocer would hand over his parcel to my ex-wife saying: 'ere you are, Love .

The Cockney accent is hard to decipher, too, e.g. with foine, loine being said rather than fine, line . 

[msmob]

Isn't that an oxymoron ?

This from an English teacher. ? (Tease)

[msmob]

I am not familiar with the accents in Essex and Kent, but in London our neighbourhood greengrocer would hand over his parcel to my ex-wife saying: 'ere you are, Love .

The Cockney accent is hard to decipher, too, e.g. with foine, loine being said rather than fine, line .

This might help)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English?wprov=sfla1

[Anotherkiwi]

This is both hilariously funny and sad (coming from an English teacher).

My thoughts, too!

British people don't "butcher" their language.  moby makes the odd spelling error, likely from typing on a mobile, but his grammar is excellent, and I don't find his posts difficult to read.

I beg to differ - he makes heaps of spelling errors  ,  but I would agree with the rest of your statement.

Trench makes some consistent spelling errors (as do you), and doesn't break up his paragraphs well, which is why his posts are more difficult to read.

Trench simply writes nonsenical, rambling sentences, many of which have no foundation in his native language.  Again, typing on a mobile phone (while riding on a train or bus, perhaps?) accounts for some of it, but his general grammatical construction is hideous.  While I can normally figure out the gist of what he's trying to say, some of his "poils" of wisdom really DO remind me of the standard mushroom scenario - keep them in the dark and feed them bullshit!

[Sting23]

Isn't that an oxymoron ?

It's a state run school with the option of paying extra for classes taught in English under an international curriculum.  There are both Russian and native English teachers.

If you never worked in Moscow you wouldn't know.  They have all the grades from kindergarten to 12 together at the same school. 

[SANDRO43]

This might help)http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estuary_English?wprov=sfla1

From the same source, however:

there is some debate among linguists as to where Cockney speech ends and Estuary English begins...Studies have indicated that Estuary English is not a single coherent form of English; rather, it has some of the phonetic features of working-class London speech spreading at various rates socially into middle-class speech and geographically into other accents of southeastern England.

NOT an impressively thorough definition .