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Author Topic: EU Issues  (Read 77966 times)

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Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #50 on: June 15, 2018, 10:37:37 AM »
Trench, instead of posting after - just admit when you got busted ...

I do not want to leave the EU or the customs union  -  the EEA route is plain STUPID as we can simply remain

In the meantime, our 'super economy' is resulting in more great news from Rolls Royce, Poundworld, House of Fraser

If you think having no scenario for a no deal solution isn't important .. ))))

Mobe, the EEA is very little different from the Customs Union, it is essentially pretty much the same deal. Both require us to accept Freedom of Movement and both require us to accept EU rules without being able to decide them, i.e rule takers not rule makers. So in both cases we would be off in a worse position than before. We would still have to pay into the EU also another no go area.

The idea being touted around by some in Labour that we could have a different Customs Union agreement is laughable - the EU has already said it is impossible if Free Movement of People is not part of it. The Free Movement of people aspect is another no go area. Essentially it was just cooked up as a compromise in the Labour Party as they were just as divided as the Tories and didn't want the cavernous splits to show in all its full glory which it now has done. Corbyn is just going along with any silly ideas on a Customs Union compromise within Labour to try and avoid his whole party breaking in two.

The Lords put a specific amendment in to require the government to take steps towards staying in or joining a new Customs Unoon,  it had nothing to do with the EEA if you chose to actually see them as separate. This amendment was voted down to as so the abuse by the Lords remainers to force the Gov & country against its will into a customs union failed. The Lords have no where else to go now and their role in all of this will soon be over :)

I hardly think 3 companies woes amount to anything happens all the time, it's nothing to do with Brexit. Poundworld found itself swamped by other pound discount shops and so it's profits were squeezed. House of Fraser it has already been stated has been suffering like many high street retailers to compete with the rise of Internet shopping and the convenience it offers. Rolls Royce are just struggling to sell their product nothing to do with Brexit looming, it's the product they have to make appealing again for the high price they are asking for it.
"If you make your own bread, then and only then, are you a free man unchained and alive living in pooty tang paradise, or say no and live in Incel island with all the others." - Krimster

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #51 on: June 15, 2018, 01:11:09 PM »
Which Court Case, Dave ?

Are you confusing the case over invoking article 50 ?

Haven't being following the Brexit planning with the UK government. Ran across this article from January this year. Did this challenge make it to the High Court? Every time I read something about Brexit, MPs are challenging something in court and Brits say Americans are litigious.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-high-court-legal-challenge-single-market-eea-theresa-may-2018-1

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #52 on: June 15, 2018, 02:39:44 PM »
Dave, think your talking about Gina Miller. She was basically a stooge of the likes of George Soros and other powerful business men & companies. She was a front for them to put a legal challenge forward to Brexit essentially to try and block Brexit from happening in the House of Commons.

It was originally thought that while the people had voted for Brexit the House of Commons as a whole were against it and so could vote against Article 50 do thereby stopping Brexit. Yet despite Gina Miller's eventually successful win in the High Court of Appeal, bet that cost a bit ;) by that time the balance in the House of Commons had moved towards Leave. Basically some MP's go with their party's decision, some go with their constituents decision and done realise the way the wind is blowing, do not wish to go against he electorial mandate.

Now why a Ghanaian born woman would want to spend so much money legally challenging a electorial mandate for Brexit is laughable. I never thought the original decision to state that Parliament vote on whether to issue article 50 should have been overturned in the court of appeal. It essentially said Gina Miller's views counted for more than the whole of the UK Leave mandate at the time of the referendum. Technically Article 50 should have been signed the moment the decision to Leave came through.

Anyway, she later mounted a legal challenge that Parliament should have a meaningful vote on Brexit negotiation's outcome. I believe she won this in the high court also. She had basically meddled in the running of the country and undermine the democratic will of the people, incredibly arrogant and conceited towards the UK electorate whose vote apparently she can make worthless.

Fortunately she seems to have shut up for some time now as the hurdles she put in the way were straddled over & things moved on. It just goes to show how high handed and insipid the Remain lot are. They wish to impose their undemocratic will by any means over the given electorial mandate for Brexit. Totally wrong.
"If you make your own bread, then and only then, are you a free man unchained and alive living in pooty tang paradise, or say no and live in Incel island with all the others." - Krimster

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #53 on: June 15, 2018, 03:54:33 PM »
Haven't being following the Brexit planning with the UK government. Ran across this article from January this year. Did this challenge make it to the High Court? Every time I read something about Brexit, MPs are challenging something in court and Brits say Americans are litigious.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-high-court-legal-challenge-single-market-eea-theresa-may-2018-1


The challenge in the decision you linked is not being made by MP's.  The Brexit challenge (Article 50) was made by a failed political candidate.  The EEA challenge you linked also has been made by a candidate, not an MP.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #54 on: June 15, 2018, 04:11:52 PM »

The challenge in the decision you linked is not being made by MP's.  The Brexit challenge (Article 50) was made by a failed political candidate.  The EEA challenge you linked also has been made by a candidate, not an MP.

True however if the challenge is successful then MPs might get to vote on leaving the EU and of course that will only happen if the challenge is successful.

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #55 on: June 15, 2018, 04:23:42 PM »
The Court has already held that MPs must vote on article 50 -


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Miller)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Exiting_the_European_Union


The article you linked relates to the EEA, which is a distinct issue from a Brexit exit.


MP's can vote as they wish, and this is causing some issues for Labour, as there are some Labour MP's who will vote to cede from the EU, contrary to Labour's policy.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline BillyB

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« Reply #56 on: June 15, 2018, 08:36:03 PM »

Anti-Islam Alternative is the third-largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election when it won 94 seats in the Bundestag. Interesting name. Not politically correct and wouldn't fly in America.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angela-merkels-german-government-facing-collapse-over-her-immigration-stance/ar-AAyH1uj?ocid=spartanntp

Italy's recent elections had anti EU results.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927144/italian-election-result-blow-eu-5-star-movement-coalition

Nazi sympathizer was runner up in last years French Presidential election. Brexit happened. What's going on over there? Will the EU survive?
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #57 on: June 15, 2018, 09:43:25 PM »
Anti-Islam Alternative is the third-largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election when it won 94 seats in the Bundestag. Interesting name. Not politically correct and wouldn't fly in America.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angela-merkels-german-government-facing-collapse-over-her-immigration-stance/ar-AAyH1uj?ocid=spartanntp

Italy's recent elections had anti EU results.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927144/italian-election-result-blow-eu-5-star-movement-coalition

Nazi sympathizer was runner up in last years French Presidential election. Brexit happened. What's going on over there? Will the EU survive?

IMO if Merkel's party loses the support it needs to stay in power and another party assumes office she'll retire. With the way German politics appear to work, at least IMO, any party that replaces Merkel will probably be anti-immigration and probably a coalition of several parties.

http://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkels-battle-with-bavaria-refugees-migration-masterplan/

Offline Trenchcoat

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« Reply #58 on: June 15, 2018, 11:17:36 PM »
Anti-Islam Alternative is the third-largest party in Germany after the 2017 federal election when it won 94 seats in the Bundestag. Interesting name. Not politically correct and wouldn't fly in America.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/angela-merkels-german-government-facing-collapse-over-her-immigration-stance/ar-AAyH1uj?ocid=spartanntp

Italy's recent elections had anti EU results.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/927144/italian-election-result-blow-eu-5-star-movement-coalition

Nazi sympathizer was runner up in last years French Presidential election. Brexit happened. What's going on over there? Will the EU survive?

Solvenia too had a rise in support for anti EU party right after Italy. They got 25 percent share of the vote so one of the largest but unlike in Italy it looks like a more pro EU coalition will keep them out of gov. Italy certainly looks like the next big one that may consider leaving if they don't get what they want from Brussels. Spain & Greece both. Have bad economy with high unemployment so stuff may happen their longer term. France & the Netherlands both chose not to put anti EU candidate in power last time round but their support is on the up. I think if the likes of Macron don't come good then next time there may be a good possibility. Hungary & Poland are upset with the EU, Hungary over refugee issues.

So a lot off discontent with the EU. The EU essentially point blank refuse to compromise on the fundamental s it holds so dear. I think they think these fundamentals are the only sound way forward and over time they will be proved right. I think that they have overlooked the important intricacies of Europe and it's nation states and the difference s in their economies & societies. I also think they are ego led and trying to rush too much too quickly in terms of unifying Europe towards one nation state. I think they have lost touch with what people want out of the EUm They want an association which they are in control of and work on matters of shared mutual interest. They don't want an EU super state to dominate them. This has always been a goal of pro EU politicians & the commissioners, their political project, but the people of the EU most care about their circumstances not done political project that at the moment seems to be having adverse affects.

Difficult to say will it survive. I doubt it will collapse quickly. The EU will have less money after the UK leaves the EU since we were a net giver to the EU. That may persuade Italy to leave as the EU seeks more from the top Economies of Europe despite their economic woes. I still think it probably will survive but whether it will just be the UK to leave and in what form the EU will end up in I've no idea.
"If you make your own bread, then and only then, are you a free man unchained and alive living in pooty tang paradise, or say no and live in Incel island with all the others." - Krimster

Offline msmob

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« Reply #59 on: June 16, 2018, 07:04:29 AM »
DaveNY

WHY is it the 'experts on Brexit' from overseas - Trench's 'versions of reality' are bad enough - keep posting nonsense and then NEVER put their hands up and don't say " HELL, I just proved I was clueless' ;)

But Boethius and myself have tried to explain the your court case and the vote are history ...article 50 was triggered  ;D

Offline msmob

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« Reply #60 on: June 16, 2018, 07:06:26 AM »
IMO if Merkel's party loses the support it needs to stay in power and another party assumes office she'll retire. With the way German politics appear to work, at least IMO, any party that replaces Merkel will probably be anti-immigration and probably a coalition of several parties.

http://www.politico.eu/article/angela-merkels-battle-with-bavaria-refugees-migration-masterplan/

Hmmm, you seem to forget that the AfD aren't going to win any concessions unless they get more votes than the CDs, Socialists and Greens combined ...

Another FAIL on Euro politics .... it's not your week, mate ;)



Offline msmob

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« Reply #61 on: June 16, 2018, 07:12:16 AM »
Dave, think your talking about Gina Miller. She was basically a stooge of the likes of George Soros and other powerful business men & companies. She was a front for them to put a legal challenge forward to Brexit essentially to try and block Brexit from happening in the House of Commons.

IF you wish to believe trench's version of events - that'd be like hiring him as a dating guru..

1/ Gina Millar may not be British born - but she IS a British citizen and has every right to bring such cases..She is a V.intelligent lady

2/ Trench likes to 'forget' that while Soros is funding groups to keep the UK in Europe - the 'leave' vote  may well have been funded by sources that are just as influential

3/ The House of Commons VOTED to trigger article 50 - not the govt - as had been the plan

Poor 'ol Trench - simply doesn't understand ..


Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #62 on: June 16, 2018, 04:18:41 PM »
DaveNY

WHY is it the 'experts on Brexit' from overseas - Trench's 'versions of reality' are bad enough - keep posting nonsense and then NEVER put their hands up and don't say " HELL, I just proved I was clueless' ;)

But Boethius and myself have tried to explain the your court case and the vote are history ...article 50 was triggered  ;D

As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2018, 04:22:57 PM by DaveNY »

Offline BdHvA

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« Reply #63 on: June 16, 2018, 06:21:57 PM »
As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)

Sorry, this is a very weak standpoint. That you have an MBA, I will not hold that against you.

While I can point to a Dutch and American background and have a reasonable sense of the reality of Ukraine. I do not bandy about my opinions as the future direction that various foreign governments should follow.

I can share my insights and opinions with regard to political matters, but telling, demanding or otherwise berating a foreign government is boorish. The Brexit effects me on a family basis in a negative manner, but I respect the wish of those who voted in the majority to leave. In fact I think it was correct. Unfortunately reforms in Brussels/Strasbourg have failed to be presented and enacted. So yes I suspect the tide is rising to an anti-Euro sentiment.
Experierence is not what happens to you. It is what you do with what happens to you. A. Huxley

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #64 on: June 16, 2018, 08:10:52 PM »
As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)

I assume you mean forum posters. I’ve never posted how America should be run. I don’t really care how it’s run. It’s your country, not mine. I am free to point out hypocrisy and the consequences of actions.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline DaveNY

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« Reply #65 on: June 16, 2018, 09:01:05 PM »
I assume you mean forum posters. I’ve never posted how America should be run. I don’t really care how it’s run. It’s your country, not mine. I am free to point out hypocrisy and the consequences of actions.

Not just forum members. As I mentioned I've lived in the UK and Russia and traveled throughout Europe. Admit to being an American and someone will tell you what America is doing wrong and how the American government should be working.

Immigration is the classic example. Most everyone from some other country says America should be taking in millions more immigrants per year because we're rich and big. In some extreme examples they say America should have open immigration, because we're rich with lots of open land. In their opinion anyone who wants to live and work in the US should be free to do so. When I ask if their country allows open immigration, they say no because their country is not rich like America. This opinion was from a Dutch person.

Offline msmob

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« Reply #66 on: June 16, 2018, 11:32:55 PM »
As an American I have to listen to the European "experts" on how America should be run. These European experts, followed by many other experts from Canada, Australia, NZ and many other countries all want to tell Americans how America should be run. So it's only fair that I should give my personal expert opinion on Brexit or Merkel's running of Germany or Putin's running of Russia or any one of a host of European problems. I'm also reading up on problems in Australia and NZ and will soon be dispensing advice for citizens of those 2 countries. Remember I have a JD and MBA, so my opinion is truly expert advice.  ;)

Honestly, I 'get' how you must feel when non US citizens join in on your issues with guns or your President, but if I post STUPID re a fact ...I expect to be corrected and learn...

What we just gkt was a lot of words, but STILL no '' Thanks, Boethius / Moby, for correcting my howler re the Court case on who could trigger Article 50'' )))

Offline BillyB

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« Reply #67 on: June 17, 2018, 09:34:34 AM »
The Brexit effects me on a family basis in a negative manner, but I respect the wish of those who voted in the majority to leave. In fact I think it was correct. Unfortunately reforms in Brussels/Strasbourg have failed to be presented and enacted. So yes I suspect the tide is rising to an anti-Euro sentiment.

 If the EU lets the UK and other nations be in the drivers seat for more of their own affairs, nations are less likely to leave. I don't know if you read the article I supplied in another thread but Obama was disappointed that Trump is undoing much of what he accomplished at home and abroad. Obama, with many EU leaders wanted to make the place one big melting pot. With Trump's election victory, Obama questions that many still have the tribe mentality.

I do not think the tribe mentality is bad. People proud of their culture and nation isn't a bad thing. I've always supporting immigration in America but immigrants are guests and should observe and respect the culture and house they live in. The owners of the house should be able to limit the amount of guests.

If the EU addressed the concerns and gave in to some of the demands of UK citizens by giving them some control over their destiny, Brexit wouldn't have happen. Brexit won by a slim margin. The EU gambled. It was an all or nothing vote. They lost and got nothing.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline msmob

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« Reply #68 on: June 17, 2018, 11:16:41 AM »
If the EU lets the UK and other nations be in the drivers seat for more of their own affairs, nations are less likely to leave. I don't know if you read the article I supplied in another thread but Obama was disappointed that Trump is undoing much of what he accomplished at home and abroad. Obama, with many EU leaders wanted to make the place one big melting pot. With Trump's election victory, Obama questions that many still have the tribe mentality.

I do not think the tribe mentality is bad. People proud of their culture and nation isn't a bad thing. I've always supporting immigration in America but immigrants are guests and should observe and respect the culture and house they live in. The owners of the house should be able to limit the amount of guests.

If the EU addressed the concerns and gave in to some of the demands of UK citizens by giving them some control over their destiny, Brexit wouldn't have happen. Brexit won by a slim margin. The EU gambled. It was an all or nothing vote. They lost and got nothing.

BillyB

I await you posting on something about the  EU / UK that proves you have a clue.

Today, Mrs May suggested the National Health Service will receive monies 'saved' from not paying to the EU - yet her own Challencor of Exchequer reminds us that 'UK PLC' is already 15 Billion Pounds a year WORSE off in revenue - due to Brexit uncertainty...

The likes of National Enquirer and The Sun readers will lap up auch bollox ... 


Offline Boethius

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« Reply #69 on: June 17, 2018, 11:26:26 AM »
I read even anti Brexiters are rethinking their decision, thanks to Trump’s tariffs.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline msmob

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« Reply #70 on: June 17, 2018, 11:31:24 AM »
You mean Brexiters ? ...   :D

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #71 on: June 17, 2018, 11:34:18 AM »
Oops. Yes, you are correct. I’m watching a movie so I’m distracted.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline msmob

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« Reply #72 on: June 17, 2018, 11:40:45 AM »
Oops. Yes, you are correct. I’m watching a movie so I’m distracted.

You mean you aren't watching Brazil v Switzerland ? ;) 

NB Northern Ireland should be in Switzerland's place, tonight

Quoting from a comic The Sun 

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/5321985/referee-penalty-world-cup-northern-ireland-ovidiu-hategan/

But I'm not bitter ....

Offline Boethius

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« Reply #73 on: June 17, 2018, 11:43:48 AM »
No. The better half watches. I have no interest.  I'm also baking bread, so I have to be around to watch it, or I'd be doing something more useful.

PS - I'll ask the better half about that penalty.  He does watch football regularly.  It's really the only thing he watches on television.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 11:49:24 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline BillyB

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« Reply #74 on: June 17, 2018, 11:59:19 AM »
The likes of National Enquirer and The Sun readers will lap up auch bollox ...

For a short time, I actually read the same trash you read. I believed Brexit and Trump was going to lose. After the liberal media duped me, I didn't believe the sky was going to fall for the UK. You apparently still believe the sky is going to fall and need the EU to hold your hand. You need to change the way you're getting educated.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

 

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