Paul Manafort- Destroyer of Ukrainian Democracy

[BillyB]

What he did had serious repercussions for Ukraine.  It lead to Maidan.  It resulted in the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians.  That may be the law of unintended consequences, but this is reality.  He didn't give a f##k about the people of Ukraine.  He benefited personally at their expense.  He is the textbook definition of a sociopath.

Didn't you vote for that good looking young man in Canada that Brass has accused of destroying Canada?

A few years ago you preferred Yanukovych over Yulia Tymoshenko who didn't do near as much damage to Ukraine as Yanukovych did. You were glad Yanukovych put her in jail at the time. I called him a hypocrite because he was the biggest criminal in Ukraine at the time but few people at the forum seemed to agree with me. Again, if you didn't know Yanukovych was so bad a few years ago, how do you expect Manafort to know his character a decade ago? And to claim he's a destroyer of Ukraine is a bit over the top. The guy is hired to make people into winners. If he makes a customer a better person while he's at it, great but like your article said, at the end he became disillusioned with Yanukovych just as you have after learning more about him.

[Muzh]

Didn't you vote for that good looking young man in Canada that Brass has accused of destroying Canada?

A few years ago you preferred Yanukovych over Yulia Tymoshenko who didn't do near as much damage to Ukraine as Yanukovych did. You were glad Yanukovych put her in jail at the time. I called him a hypocrite because he was the biggest criminal in Ukraine at the time but few people at the forum seemed to agree with me. Again, if you didn't know Yanukovych was so bad a few years ago, how do you expect Manafort to know his character a decade ago? And to claim he's a destroyer of Ukraine is a bit over the top. The guy is hired to make people into winners. If he makes a customer a better person while he's at it, great but like your article said, at the end he became disillusioned with Yanukovych just as you have after learning more about him.

Ay ay ay Billy.


Don't you know anything? Goldilocks was the lesser of two evils.

[Brasscasing]

Did I claim he was?  No.  This thread is about Paul Manafort, destroyer of Ukraine.  That is a fact.   If you want to talk about Trump, start another thread in NHB.

It's not even relevant to democracy in Ukraine. All it is is a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting Manafort because he's Trump's campaign manager. It's basically along the lines of the last topic "Russia Does Its Best to Elect Trump" you OP'd linking an opinion piece that tries to tie Trump to the Russians.

Not criminally, but morally, as I outlined above. 


What he did had serious repercussions for Ukraine.  It lead to Maidan.  It resulted in the deaths of thousands of Ukrainians.  That may be the law of unintended consequences, but this is reality.  He didn't give a f##k about the people of Ukraine.  He benefited personally at their expense.  He is the textbook definition of a sociopath.

Does that make Robbie Mook a sociopath as well for being Clinton's campaign manager? Clinton after all was responsible for Libya (Benghazi) and supporting the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Both these countries experienced thousands of deaths as well.

Manafort was hired to do a job...

Paul Manafort, Donald Trump’s top adviser, and his ties to pro-Russian politicians in Ukraine

..."The relationship lasted for years leading up to Yanukovych’s 2010 presidential campaign. Manafort made Yanukovych look more respectable, working with stylists and consultants to redesign his image.

The political consultant had another important mission -- to move Yanukovych closer to Washington. Yanukovych’s team wanted a photo of President Barack Obama with Yanukovych to show that Ukraine’s president was respected in the West."...



www.politifact.com

This article from Politifact was sourced by Ukrainian journalists in Ukraine and although not very complementary does not indict Manafort his role in consulting for Yanukovych or his party.

Your link is way out of touch with the impact or even reality of his role in Ukraine.

Brass

[Boethius]

Gosh, I didn't know he worked for Yulia Tymoshenko?    Boe, you can't see past your keyboard on this one.  Your strident posting flies in the face of things you have written before.  Those were much more believable than that Manafort was personally responsible for Maidan.  James Carville is a perfect example of someone who has gone to different countries and worked to get a corrupt president elected.   Perhaps you should watch the movie, "Our Brand Is Crisis".  Because he worked for the Clintons, should we now discount Hillary (most of us already have)?

You are presenting an argument that flies in the face of your previous postings.  Perhaps you should drink some coffee and leave the Kool Aid alone.

Apples and oranges.


I have never claimed Tymoskenko was a better choice.  I would have no issue with Manafort working for Yanukovych as a campaign advisor, as that is what he does.  But he took it to another level.  He got in bed with Yanukovych and the oligarchs after the campaign.  He entered into business deals with them, stealing Ukrainian assets along the way.  He lobbied the Ukrainian government to drop tariffs which benefited US multinationals from whom he was receiving a paycheque, even though that position was bad for the average Ukrainian. 

[Boethius]

It's not even relevant to democracy in Ukraine. All it is is a thinly veiled attempt at discrediting Manafort because he's Trump's campaign manager. It's basically along the lines of the last topic "Russia Does Its Best to Elect Trump" you OP'd linking an opinion piece that tries to tie Trump to the Russians.

See above.  He has a long history of working with the Putinistas, and is tied to them not only as a political advisor, but as a business partner.

Does that make Robbie Mook a sociopath as well for being Clinton's campaign manager? Clinton after all was responsible for Libya (Benghazi) and supporting the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt. Both these countries experienced thousands of deaths as well.

Is he selling Libyan oil and pocketing the profits in New York?  Has he entered into business deals with corrupt Libyan elits?

Manafort was hired to do a job...

Your link is way out of touch with the impact or even reality of his role in Ukraine.

His job was not to steal Ukrainian assets and move them to New York.  His job was not to use his position to have the Party of Regions remove tariffs on its most important export, for the benefit of a U.S. multinational. 


My link, and my research into him, is very much in touch with Ukraine. 

[jone]

He must have made cookies and delivered them to Maidan.   

[Boethius]

I noted Maidan was the law of unintended consequences.  But, he had no issue working for the former KGB.  That, in and of itself, personifies evil.

[Boethius]

Ay ay ay Billy.


Don't you know anything? Goldilocks was the lesser of two evils.

I didn't state that either.


My issue is not with working on the Yanukovych campaign.  It was everything he did after that with which I have an issue.  This is not a man who has demonstrated any sort of conscience.  He is still in bed with Party of Region oligarchs.

[Brasscasing]

See above.  He has a long history of working with the Putinistas, and is tied to them not only as a political advisor, but as a business partner.


Is he selling Libyan oil and pocketing the profits in New York?  Has he entered into business deals with corrupt Libyan elits?


His job was not to steal Ukrainian assets and move them to New York.  His job was not to use his position to have the Party of Regions remove tariffs on its most important export, for the benefit of a U.S. multinational. 


My link, and my research into him, is very much in touch with Ukraine.

Nope, it's not. And I highly doubt you could prove any of what you're posting. The only case even hinting at any wrong doing I'm aware of that actually got into a court room was dismissed...

Paul Manafort Was Once Sued by Fmr. Ukrainian Prime Minister for ‘Scheming’ and ‘Money Laundering’

..."LawNewz.com did some digging into those alleged ties, and discovered that for several years Manafort was also caught up in a lawsuit filed by former Ukranian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. She accused Manafort and others of funneling money into the United States to help pay Ukrainian prosecutors and supporters of Viktor Yanukovych who in 2010 narrowly defeated Tymoshenko to become Ukraine’s president.  After four years of litigation, the lawsuit was dismissed in 2015 by a Manhattan federal judge. Attorneys denied Manafort had any involvement."...

..."In December 2015, the case was dismissed for good by a federal judge. The judge ruled that the the former Prime Minister could not re-file the case. LawNewz.com tried contacting Mr. Manafort about the case, but have not heard back."...

lawnewz.com

Seems pretty clear to me. Your mileage may vary.

Brass

[Muzh]

I didn't state that either.

I know.


I did.

[Slumba]

I think we need more info about VP Biden's son going over to Ukraine and mysteriously becoming involved in oil and gas exploration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html

Note: NYT not considered a conservative news source.

But the credibility of the vice president’s anticorruption message may have been undermined by the association of his son, Hunter Biden, with one of Ukraine’s largest natural gas companies, Burisma Holdings, and with its owner, Mykola Zlochevsky, who was Ukraine’s ecology minister under former President Viktor F. Yanukovych before he was forced into exile.

[jone]

Hell, I have no problem whatsoever that Manfort had his nose in the trough.  Everyone did (and does).    Unless you are playing the Trump angle, this is not even a story.  Which brings me back to my point.  Boe, it looks to me like you are trying to show how bad Trump is because he hired a paid political operative (a la James Carville, stated above).  That is the whole purpose for this thread.  Maybe we should move it into the US political section and make it for members only. 

I don't see Ms. Boethius railing against the Oligarchs, but instead separates out this one man as evidence of how corrupt Trump is.  That is a bridge too far.  (Although I do think Trump is absolutely corrupt.  But then, again, I think Clinton is worse.)

[Muzh]

I don't see Ms. Boethius railing against the Oligarchs, but instead separates out this one man as evidence of how corrupt Trump is.  That is a bridge too far.  (Although I do think Trump is absolutely corrupt.  But then, again, I think Clinton is worse.)

You may want to double-check the archives. I know she has many times.

[Brasscasing]

Didn't you vote for that good looking young man in Canada that Brass has accused of destroying Canada?

Meanwhile, back in Canada...Gawdamn it!!! Can't the kid find more important things to be doing like running the freakin' country!





Justin Trudeau steals the show at the Vancouver Pride Parade

www.cbc.ca

Brass

[BillyB]

A piece on Paul Manafort's role in electing Yanukovych

My issue is not with working on the Yanukovych campaign. 

The first sentence in this thread sure made it sound like you wanted us to know your concern about Manafort's role in electing Yanukovych.

[jone]

You may want to double-check the archives. I know she has many times.

Yes.  Previously.  Fully agree with you.  That is my point. 

[Boethius]

Hell, I have no problem whatsoever that Manfort had his nose in the trough.  Everyone did (and does).    Unless you are playing the Trump angle, this is not even a story.  Which brings me back to my point.  Boe, it looks to me like you are trying to show how bad Trump is because he hired a paid political operative (a la James Carville, stated above).  That is the whole purpose for this thread.  Maybe we should move it into the US political section and make it for members only. 

I don't see Ms. Boethius railing against the Oligarchs, but instead separates out this one man as evidence of how corrupt Trump is.  That is a bridge too far.  (Although I do think Trump is absolutely corrupt.  But then, again, I think Clinton is worse.)

This had zero to do with Trump.  Zero.  You will note this is not the first time I have posted this.  If I wanted this to be about Trump, I would have posted it in NHB.


I have posted plenty about the corrupt oligarchs.  But they can't be defeated if they are aided and abetted by corrupt Westerners.

[Boethius]

Nope, it's not. And I highly doubt you could prove any of what you're posting. The only case even hinting at any wrong doing I'm aware of that actually got into a court room was dismissed...

Paul Manafort Was Once Sued by Fmr. Ukrainian Prime Minister for ‘Scheming’ and ‘Money Laundering’

..."LawNewz.com did some digging into those alleged ties, and discovered that for several years Manafort was also caught up in a lawsuit filed by former Ukranian Prime Minister Yulia Tymoshenko. She accused Manafort and others of funneling money into the United States to help pay Ukrainian prosecutors and supporters of Viktor Yanukovych who in 2010 narrowly defeated Tymoshenko to become Ukraine’s president.  After four years of litigation, the lawsuit was dismissed in 2015 by a Manhattan federal judge. Attorneys denied Manafort had any involvement."...

..."In December 2015, the case was dismissed for good by a federal judge. The judge ruled that the the former Prime Minister could not re-file the case. LawNewz.com tried contacting Mr. Manafort about the case, but have not heard back."...

lawnewz.com

Seems pretty clear to me. Your mileage may vary.

Brass

Irrelevant to my point.  That case was by Tymoshenko, who sued due to the election.


I am no fan of Tymoshenko.


All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power.  That had zero to do with Tymoshenko's lawsuit against him.

[fathertime]

I think we need more info about VP Biden's son going over to Ukraine and mysteriously becoming involved in oil and gas exploration:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/09/world/europe/corruption-ukraine-joe-biden-son-hunter-biden-ties.html

Note: NYT not considered a conservative news source.

..and now suddenly you care about this?  I'd have to look back in the archives but when I brought this up a year or 2 ago there didn't seem to be much concern.


Fathertime!   

[Brasscasing]

Irrelevant to my point.  That case was by Tymoshenko, who sued due to the election.


I am no fan of Tymoshenko.


All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power.  That had zero to do with Tymoshenko's lawsuit against him.

But it's not irrelevant to the point I was making in that the only instance of Manafort even being accused of any wrong doing (that I'm aware of) that got into a court room was dismissed.

And no, not all of Manafort's personal net worth came after Yanukovych took power. Paul Manafort has being sharp shooting for various world leaders for well over 30 years. He is a partner in a world class consulting firm, gets paid a very good salary and bonuses (I'd assume) and probably (I would hope considering his CV) has picked up some good investments over the years. So I doubt by the time he started working for Akhmetov in Ukraine he was penniless.

Again, I have seen nothing that would suggest he's been accused of any wrong doing over the years other than a law suit that was dismissed.

I'm sure if he'd ended up working for the Clinton campaign the media and the subsequent opinion articles would be portraying him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Brass

[BillyB]

I'm sure if he'd ended up working for the Clinton campaign the media and the subsequent opinion articles would be portraying him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Manafort was getting around a million a year on some jobs advising world leaders. If Hillary offered him a job first, I'm sure he'd take it and we wouldn't be seeing this thread. Politics aren't his concern. Business is. If Hillary offered me a million dollars to be her advisor, I'd take it too. Although I believe she's done corrupt things, being her advisor I may mold her into being a better person and being a better person is giving me a raise to two million dollars. 

[Boethius]

But it's not irrelevant to the point I was making in that the only instance of Manafort even being accused of any wrong doing (that I'm aware of) that got into a court room was dismissed.

It was not dismissed because it wasn't true.  It was dismissed because the U.S. lacked jurisdiction.

And no, not all of Manafort's personal net worth came after Yanukovych took power. Paul Manafort has being sharp shooting for various world leaders for well over 30 years. He is a partner in a world class consulting firm, gets paid a very good salary and bonuses (I'd assume) and probably (I would hope considering his CV) has picked up some good investments over the years. So I doubt by the time he started working for Akhmetov in Ukraine he was penniless.

I don't think I stated all his personal net worth came after Yanukovych came to power.  I stated he became rich in entering into business deals with oligarchs who were looting Ukraine.  He was among that "elite" group.

Again, I have seen nothing that would suggest he's been accused of any wrong doing over the years other than a law suit that was dismissed.

He helped funnel money from Ukraine into US real estate, and he personally benefited from the US investments.

I'm sure if he'd ended up working for the Clinton campaign the media and the subsequent opinion articles would be portraying him as the greatest thing since sliced bread.

I care not one whit what the Clinton campaign would allege.  I would be posting the same thing about a Democrat who was in bed with Ukrainian oligarchs.  Yes, Hunter Biden is in that group.


Why you feel a need to protect a sleazy political operative who has made millions aiding and abetting the former KGB, now looting the countries that they run or did run, to the detriment of the tens of millions living there in poverty, is beyond me.

[BillyB]

He helped funnel money from Ukraine into US real estate, and he personally benefited from the US investments.

I'm currently bidding a job that is worth 1.2-1.4 million dollars for the scope of work I'll provide with a profit of at least $100,000. The development company consist of Americans that find foreign investors to build in America. This project will be funded by Chinese guys and the projects overall value is around $20 million. I know nothing about the developers or their investors and I'll probably never will unless they are in the news 10 years from now pictured in handcuffs. But if I'm low bidder and the job is offered to me, I'm going to take it. I can imagine these Chinese rich guys are investing in America because if they do, they get a green card and their money will be tied up in a safe place just in case the Chinese Communist government decides to take everything they got. If the American government let this money, including Manafort's investor money, in to build America and doesn't seize it, I'm not going to question if the money is bad.

Below is an article talking about Manafort. He tried to bring Yanukovych closer to America and Europe. He failed in his mission. Remember when everybody thought Yanu was going to make a deal with Europe and the last second he made a deal with Putin? Photo below of Obama meeting with Yanukovych. Obama guilty too for socializing with Yanu?

http://www.politifact.com/global-news/article/2016/may/02/paul-manafort-donald-trumps-top-adviser-and-his-ti/

Why you feel a need to protect a sleazy political operative who has made millions aiding and abetting the former KGB, now looting the countries that they run or did run, to the detriment of the tens of millions living there in poverty, is beyond me.

There is nothing Manafort can do that Obama and Hillary can do 100x better or worse. Syria is much worse off than Ukraine. Obama/Hillary decided to get involved there without being fully committed. The war lasted years with tens of millions losing their homes and fleeing the country. A quarter million dead and a terrorist organization grew out of the mess that has hit western countries taken land the size of Belgium. Protecting Manafort is a lesser sin than protecting Obama. Manafort can't make political decisions but if he could, I doubt he recommend Yanu to keep the Ukrainian citizens in poverty.

[Brasscasing]

It was not dismissed because it wasn't true.  It was dismissed because the U.S. lacked jurisdiction.

It was litigated for four years. The judge also ruled that Tymoshenko had failed to adequately demonstrate that Manafort’s business dealings with Firtash constituted a conscious effort to abet intimidation and harassment against his political critics in Ukraine.

I don't think I stated all his personal net worth came after Yanukovych came to power.  I stated he became rich in entering into business deals with oligarchs who were looting Ukraine.  He was among that "elite" group.

..."All of Manafort's personal fortune came after Yanukovych took power."...
That is what you posted and what I answered to. And even after your clarifying your statement the answer is still no. He was wealthy prior to his stint in Ukraine.

He helped funnel money from Ukraine into US real estate, and he personally benefited from the US investments.

And this is illegal how?

I care not one whit what the Clinton campaign would allege.  I would be posting the same thing about a Democrat who was in bed with Ukrainian oligarchs.  Yes, Hunter Biden is in that group.

And my response is the same. Your link would not have been written and you wouldn't be posting this thread if Manafort were not Trump's campaign manager.

Case in point: Tad Devine, who consulted on the Bernie Sanders campaign, also worked for Yanukovych in almost the same role as Manafort ...Not a word about him in the media.

Why you feel a need to protect a sleazy political operative who has made millions aiding and abetting the former KGB, now looting the countries that they run or did run, to the detriment of the tens of millions living there in poverty, is beyond me.

Because the premise of your link isn't true. It's just not based in fact. It's a smear designed to discredit an individual working for and by extension a political campaign/candidate you and the author of your article disagree with.

Even the tone of your quoted comment betrays a certain bias and I dare say condescension;  I do not feel the need to protect Manafort. I would however debate a link or premise that is designed to malign an individual especially when there is nothing to substantiate the allegations.


Brass

[Slumba]

I can only find, exacly ONE mention of Manafort on this forum, pre-Trump:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=16536.msg345323#msg345323

It is a message from Boethius pointing out to LT that Yanuk was employing Americans (LT alleged that Yanuk, was anti-American).

Now, maybe the search engine is wrong and there were more mentions of him, but...

Manafort, no doubt one of several paid advisers to Yanuk, was never even mentioned on this board as anyone important to Ukraine, until after Trump chooses Manafort as one of his main political advisers.  Then Boethius, certainly entitled to have a political opinion as all of us are, posts this.

Boethius, are you not conversant to fluent in Ukrainian, Russian, and of course English?

You would have had Manafort on your radar long ago, due to mentions of him in the Ukr. or Russian press, well before any English-language sources of reporting had even had the chance to pick up the story. 

You have been reading / studying / getting on the ground updates about Maidan since it happened; but no mention of Manafort all this time?

You see how it looks, given you have made no secret of your disdain for Trump?