Ukraine Travel Warning Dec. 14 2016

[tfcrew]

The Department of State warns U.S. citizens to avoid all travel to Crimea and the eastern regions of Donetsk and Luhansk. This supersedes the Travel Warning for Ukraine dated June 17, 2016.
  Russia-backed separatists continue to control areas in the Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts, where violent clashes have resulted in over 9,000 deaths. A ceasefire agreement established a de facto dividing line between Ukrainian government-controlled and separatist-held areas of Ukraine, with a limited number of operational checkpoints controlled by government and separatist forces.

http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/ukraine-travel-warning.html

[JohnDearGreen]

maybe avoid the country roads also.   Nice neighborhood, but
they don't have much pull with the Dept. of Transportation.
http://youtu.be/2V-uKWpfrio

[krimster2]

"Ukraine Travel Warning Dec. 14 2016"

I will be in Sevastopol for the month of August
nothing to do with Trump campaign...

my first trip to Krim since annexation by Russia
have to come in from Moscow instead of kyiv now
bummer...

[Wayne]

When I last entered Crimea, I needed a special Russian visa with permission to enter Crimea. This was after the take over.  My wife needed to send me a special invitation letter. There was a special form to fill out.

You should check what the current procedure is.

[Wayne]

I just see this information from the US Department of State:

Crimea: The Crimean Peninsula remains part of Ukraine despite Russia’s purported annexation and occupation.  Follow the guidance in our Travel Warning for Ukraine and defer all travel to Crimea.  If you choose to travel to Crimea, you should be aware:
•The U.S. Embassy has severely restricted the travel of U.S. government personnel to Crimea.
•The U.S. Embassy’s ability to provide consular services, including responding to emergencies to U.S. citizens, is extremely limited.
•Time spent in Crimea counts against the 90 days allowed in Ukraine without a visa.
•You may only enter Crimea from mainland Ukraine.
•Entrance into Crimea by air or sea is illegal and you will be denied entry into mainland Ukraine and banned from Ukraine for five years. 

[krimster2]

"When I last entered Crimea, I needed a special Russian visa with permission to enter Crimea. This was after the take over.  My wife needed to send me a special invitation letter. There was a special form to fill out."

my family and I have 3 year multi-entry visas to Russia
visas are all done by a Russian with "friends"
nothing special needed to visit Krim

[Stirlitz]

My friend stole that car. Nothing special is needed to drive it. There is no police in our neighborhood so I just borrow it from him and drive it when I like. It is fun.

[krimster2]

good to know you follow the rules of law and order
but if you steal
can you complain when the oligarchs steal?
what's the difference?
 

[Anotherkiwi]

When I last entered Crimea, I needed a special Russian visa with permission to enter Crimea. This was after the take over.  My wife needed to send me a special invitation letter. There was a special form to fill out.

You should check what the current procedure is.

I just see this information from the US Department of State:

Crimea: The Crimean Peninsula remains part of Ukraine despite Russia’s purported annexation and occupation.  Follow the guidance in our Travel Warning for Ukraine and defer all travel to Crimea.  If you choose to travel to Crimea, you should be aware:
•The U.S. Embassy has severely restricted the travel of U.S. government personnel to Crimea.
•The U.S. Embassy’s ability to provide consular services, including responding to emergencies to U.S. citizens, is extremely limited.
•Time spent in Crimea counts against the 90 days allowed in Ukraine without a visa.
•You may only enter Crimea from mainland Ukraine.
•Entrance into Crimea by air or sea is illegal and you will be denied entry into mainland Ukraine and banned from Ukraine for five years. 

my family and I have 3 year multi-entry visas to Russia
visas are all done by a Russian with "friends"
nothing special needed to visit Krim

So what you're saying, Krimster, is that you're never going back to Ukraine after this trip?  Or that because Russia considers Crimea part of Russia, and therefore presumably doesn't stamp travel documents, Ukrainian border officials at the airport won't know that you've been to Crimea.  You obviously won't be able to travel back by road to "mainland" Ukraine, because staff at the land "border" will know that you didn't travel south past them, and therefore must have entered Crimea by means that are illegal in their eyes (either by air or sea).

[krimster2]

never had a problem with Ovir that couldn't be resolved in under 10 sec with a present
it's Ukraine...

[krimster2]

btw, a friend did the overland drive from Simferopol to Kerch and onto Odessa and across both Russian and Ukrainian check points
he got hassled (only because he didn't pay) but he got through but long lines
that would be a miserable way to go to Ukraine
I don't plan on combining a trip to Ukraine with Russia
that is really inconvenient now
because of having to xfer in and out of Krim through Moscow
if I ever go to Lviv or Odessa in the future
I will go through Borispol and then on to those places
I don't anticipate the issues you brought up being of any real concern
Ovir is REALLY easy to deal with...

[JayH]

never had a problem with Ovir that couldn't be resolved in under 10 sec with a present
it's Ukraine...

it's Ukraine...

IT WAS UKRAINE

"Ovir is REALLY easy to deal with"

By writing outdated crap you keep perpetrating bad advice and info to others .
How long is it since you were last in Ukraine?

What is a certainty -- the old ways will still apply under the Russian occupiers  in Krym

[krimster2]

jay...

calm down man...

"By writing outdated crap you keep perpetrating bad advice and info to others .
How long is it since you were last in Ukraine?"

Jay, you don't have a monopoly on information
and you don't know the source of mine
mine is accurate and up to date
and is all recent and all first-hand
and the quality of my family's trip is dependent on its accuracy
 
your assertion that Ukraine is now some how different and is more law abiding and bribery and corruption are not so prevalent as they used to be, should be the legal basis for entering a mental hospital, as it would be that delusional...

[JayH]

So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?

I am in no doubt that corruption did not end overnight at Maidan -- BUT -- it is a different Ukraine and any generalising in the way you did it is misleading -- at best.
A long way to go on the issue -- but -- significant progress has been made and in dealing with lower level bureaucracy  it is different now.

[Boethius]

OVIR was part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs in Soviet times, and its officers were part of the KGB.  After the collapse, they remained part of the Ministry of Internal Affairs, and SBU.  They were only divorced from the SBU in 2015. 

I don't doubt that they would take bribes, but in the past, if you paid a bribe, that would be recorded somewhere, even if the bribe was kept. 

My husband takes many short trips to Ukraine annually.  His last one was within the last two months.  He is exceptionally analytical and observant, two traits which kept him alive and out of jail.  He also communicates with many Ukrainian expats, most of whom go back annually.  From the perspective of most Ukrainians, there is no difference in corruption now.  In fact, in some regions it is worse.  Journalists are still being killed for disclosing corruption.  That said, the neutral Transparency Index does rate Ukraine higher than it has in the past, and it has moved ahead of Russia.  So, it's still extremely corrupt, but less so than a year ago, or two yeas ago.  My view is this is not because of Ukrainians, but because external forces are finally catching up to Ukraine's corrupt politicians.  No more Russian gas to siphon off and steal, and the IMF and EU will no longer give the Ukrainian government funds directly, except in very controlled circumstances, as they recognize those funds end up in politicians' pockets rather than doing what they were intended to do.

[krimster2]

"So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?"

would be a relevant question to ask if my information was solely based on my own experience
but its not,
like most people with family ties to the FSU I'm part of "network" of people
in my network I have several people who went to Krim from Moscow and then to Kerch, and on to Odessa and Kyiv
and several who have traveled straight to Kyiv or Odessa
both within the last year
all are US citizens but some are Ukrainina/Russian and some native born USA
all have business or personal ties to Ukraine and travel there at least once per year
consensus is that Ukraine is the "same ole same ole" if anything even more corrupt
ok?
is it alright with you if I go?
I promise not to break anything...

[krimster2]

bribes to different bureaucrats can be made in different ways,
for example, when I used to own a lot of property in Sevastopol and had to spend a crazy amount of time registering documents, getting authorizations, inspections, etc  you could buy a special "fuel coupon" good for say 50 liters of fuel and donate it to whatever "department" it was, and also give cash directly to the bureaucrat you were face to face with
this would make all my documents magically float to the top of the in basket and my visit short and hassle free.

every bureaucrat has to be paid, to do otherwise is a waste of time, and the bribes are usually less than $100
biggest bribe I paid was for my wife to get her driver's license in Ukraine that was $200
IMHO this part of corruption is not such a big deal
and cheaper than the west
getting building permits and inspections on a house in San Jose, CA cost me $35,000...
the same in Ukraine maybe cost $20 officially but $200 in bribes

[Boethius]

I think your analogy is flawed.  Building permits and inspections are required to ensure properties comply with standard codes.  I wouldn't describe it as a "bribe", although it does raise revenue.  However, if you do not meet the required code standards, in most non corrupt jurisdictions, you can't build.  Period.  Not so in Ukraine, where, because of bribery, anything and everything is on the table for a price. 


Countries where corruption is endemic are rarely prosperous and secure.

[JayH]

"So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?"

would be a relevant question to ask if my information was solely based on my own experience
but its not,
like most people with family ties to the FSU I'm part of "network" of people
in my network I have several people who went to Krim from Moscow and then to Kerch, and on to Odessa and Kyiv
and several who have traveled straight to Kyiv or Odessa
both within the last year
all are US citizens but some are Ukrainina/Russian and some native born USA
all have business or personal ties to Ukraine and travel there at least once per year
consensus is that Ukraine is the "same ole same ole" if anything even more corrupt
ok?
is it alright with you if I go?
I promise not to break anything...

Actually K --if it was up to me I would do something about everyone that visits Krym -- and at the least examine why they were there.
Also note--if it was up to me  !! ---  I would have zero tolerance in Ukraine on any bribe or corruption at any level.

To comment on Boethius post -- it is hard for me to make specific comparisons . Prior to Maidan I simply accepted  what I could see and hear -- and lived with it on the basis that was how that world was.
But --it is quite wrong to say nothing has changed -- certainly in numerous small examples it has changed. In other areas I find distasteful -- it is still there to deal with.
The other side of that coin -- as an example -- the Police previously were paid a totally inadequate wage -- in the reforms their pay rose 4 fold. So the immediate need to supplement their income by actively seeking bribes  was removed ( or at least reduced) .I numerous dealings ( on trivial matters) I have only had one attempt( the cop decided having his id photographed was enough for him to only give me a warning instead !!) Previously -- Police would stop( or attempt to !!) you very very often if you had number plates from somewhere else ! That no longer happens .
 A small example of personal experience how reforms have been real  . Funnily enough, Mrs B touches on point I often wondered about eg the Police on the beat who collected the income had to share it with senior officers etc so it made it harder to negotiate down to very little !!   In dealing with OVIR - I have not been asked for any more than a documented expedition fee.

Note -- I am in no way attempting to say that a "new" Ukraine miraculously solved corruption overnight -- but-- I know of many instances where individuals have chosen to behave differently . In fact -- in a city that does have a zest for reform & I know quite well -- the local Mayor was murdered because of his attempts to reform -- and -- and -- subsequently people were charged  .

[Boethius]

Your mistake as a foreigner is in assuming those charges were a disavowal of corruption.  It is usually about different factions fighting.

[JayH]

I think your analogy is flawed.  Building permits and inspections are required to ensure properties comply with standard codes.  I wouldn't describe it as a "bribe", although it does raise revenue.  However, if you do not meet the required code standards, in most non corrupt jurisdictions, you can't build.  Period.  Not so in Ukraine, where, because of bribery, anything and everything is on the table for a price. 


Countries where corruption is endemic are rarely prosperous and secure.

Interesting that you mention building projects etc .
In my post above I mentioned a specific city that is really trying to reform.
A commercial building in a prominent city location is substantially finished -- but -- as was not unusual in earlier days-- it was not built to the approved engineering spec and in fact far exceeded what was approved.
It is now subject of a legal battle between the developer and the city .
Some of the back story intrigue is all about corruption and attempted bribery.

In my home city --these days -- the court order would be to demolish if it could not be changed into compliance. It is exactly the type of order Ukraine needs right now to prevent builder/developers ignoring requirements.
It becomes even more important when you consider the sheer number of buildings with significant history and merit that will need to be saved to keep streetscapes intact.

[JayH]

Your mistake as a foreigner is in assuming those charges were a disavowal of corruption.  It is usually about different factions fighting.

I well appreciate that point -- BUT-- it is not always the case.
There is definitely a very solid core of people idealistic enough to understand that corruption is a major impediment to a prosperous Ukraine.

[krimster2]

I humbly beseech you Jay...
to give all due consideration to provide my children with your esteemed blessing and allow them to see their aging grandparents in Krim, perhaps for the last time...

my gratitude to you Jay...

a conundrum for BO to ponder

is Ukraine corrupt because it’s poor, or poor because it’s corrupt

[Boethius]

is Ukraine corrupt because it’s poor, or poor because it’s corrupt

It's not an either or.

Historically, the Russian Empire always had a lot of corruption among its bureaucrats.  The first ever anti corruption riots occurred in Russia, in 1648.  Different tsars cracked down on corruption with varying degrees of success, but it was always a problem, particularly in the far flung regions.

Under the Soviets, particularly in the Brezhnev years, corruption and theft were the rule rather than the exception.  Factories ran "second shifts" where everything was stolen from the state, produced, then sold for the benefit of those running the factories, or at times, outside criminals.  It was rare to find someone who did not steal from the job.  The better half was deemed an idiot because he refused to steal, in fact, he resented it.  So, this is deeply ingrained. 

Ukraine and Russia are also poor because you can't liquidate your most effective members (successful farmers, successful businessmen, intellectuals) and succeed.  It takes generations to replace that.  But, it certainly isn't helped by corruption.

[JayH]

I humbly beseech you Jay...
to give all due consideration to provide my children with your esteemed blessing and allow them to see their aging grandparents in Krim, perhaps for the last time...

my gratitude to you Jay...

So-- when exactly were you last there?
And YOUR dealing with OVIR?