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Author Topic: The Propaganda War  (Read 407959 times)

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Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1425 on: January 31, 2015, 01:14:27 PM »
I just clicked on your link.





You didn't even read the damn thing. All you saw was a misleading heading.


Man, sad.


No wonder the Europeans think that Americans are dumb.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1426 on: January 31, 2015, 02:45:01 PM »
Quote
I was browsing the internet this morning and found this little article over at the Huffington Post that I agreed with.  Some of the statements I strongly agree with, like this one:


The exercise of restraint in the aftermath of the military intervention in South Ossetia in 2008, as Putin did not extend military efforts to the entire Caucasus, indicates that the Kremlin is careful not to conflate a pro-Russian alignment with a desire to unite with Russia. The economic costs and geopolitical fallout of enforcing a Russian occupation on a population that does not desire it, explicitly contradicts Putin's strategic interests, which have been defined by a defensive desire to protect his sphere of influence from what he perceives to be aggressive NATO encroachment.

FT, if you ever wish to know, and not have to guess and grasp, about this region, I'd be happy to teach you. Hell, I'll teach the person who wrote that article, too.

Restraint? Oh dear, where to begin...

Mr. Putin fully intended to install a friendly government in Tbilisi. I'm guessing that you've never been there either, right?

So, what stopped him? Hmm, lets retrace some steps. Three days prior to the outbreak of war, the Russian Foreign Ministry invited foreign and domestic journalists to travel to the border with the idea that the press would see military exercises. Russia already had troops inside Georgia, and refused to remove them over the protests of the Georgian government.

There had been skirmishes back and forth, but on August 8 full hostilities broke out. At first Russia claimed that Georgia started the conflict. Since then however, not only Generals in the Russian Army, but even President Putin himself, have claimed credit for invading. On television, Mr. Putin claimed that preemptive force was necessary because his intelligence services revealed that Tbilisi was transporting trained terrorists to, and training them in, Abkhazia, one of the disputed Georgian provinces. Putin contended that Georgia planned to use terrorists to disrupt construction of Olympic facilities, and then later the Olympics themselves.

Russia quickly overran Georgian forces and were ready to advance on the capital when several events took place:

President Sarkozy of France flew to Moscow for an emergency meeting. On August 12, then-president Medvedev informed Sarkozy that Moscow intended to press Georgia for a full surrender under Russian terms. Those terms included a new government chosen by Moscow. Medvedev told Sarkozy that when it came to the Georgian government, "we intend to perform surgery." He informed Sarkozy that Russian troops would remain in Georgia afterwards to assure peace.

Sarkozy then asked for a conference call with Medvedev, himself, and Javier Solana, who was the EU foreign policy chief at the time. During those meetings, Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov informed Medvedev that the US State Department, on a direct order from then-president George W Bush, was landing humanitarian aid at the Tbilisi airport. The US planes were clearly marked military transport planes and the State Department had informed Lavrov that an attack on those planes would be considered a direct attack on the USA. The US invited Russian observers to be present when the planes were offloaded and assured Russia that the shipments would be entirely humanitarian, not military, in nature. Meanwhile a US Navy battle group was making its way via the Black Sea to Georgian ports.

Furious, but in a corner, Lavrov told Medvedev to make a deal with Sarkozy. Russia pulled its advancing operations back from Tbilisi.

There were some wrinkles in the following days, including the fact that Russia continued to bomb the Georgian city of Gori for several days after signing a peace treaty. That continued air bombing cost additional civilian lives, including a Dutch TV journalist who was killed.

Some facts that correct the Huffington post article:

- South Ossetia and Abkhazia are both dirt poor regions. They add nothing, zilch, to the Russian economy and in fact, Russia supplies financial and economic aid.
- Abkhazia is majority Muslim, most residents never wanted to be a part of white ethnic Russia. The only reason most of the residents have Russian passports is that leading up to the war, Russia passed them out like candy.
- South Ossetians on the other hand are mostly Orthodox and have ties to their Russian neighbor, North Ossetia. Following the breakup of the Soviet Union, most had only Georgian passports, but like in Abkhazia, those were handed out like candy prior to the outbreak of war.
- South Ossetia would indeed like to become a part of Russia, but they have little to offer except poverty and an additional burden to the RF social welfare system. Therefore, Moscow has ignored their desire for annexation.
- Late last year Russia announced that the Russia was integrating the small Abkhazian Army into the Russian Army. No annexation, because Abkhazia has nothing of value to offer, but it legitimizes the long term presence of Russian troops inside Abkhazia.
- Why Russia would rush in to pull them out of Georgia, yet leave them in limbo is easy to understand: Georgia had signaled that it wanted to join NATO, and Russia had warned Tbilisi what would happen if they continued the process. Tbilisi miscalculated and thought that Russia was bluffing. Moscow doesn't believe in bluffs.

So much for Mr. Putin practicing "restraint."

I understand that you will wish to respond that the article accurately reflected your opinion, and that my opinion is inaccurate. So, lets cut to the chase: what I have listed above is not conjecture, nor opinion. Those are easily researched FACTS.

You seem to specialize in what we in Russia call фигня.

Now, FT, I am going to surprise and/or shock you, because while the above are indeed FACTS, as opposed to фигня, I SUPPORT INDEPENDENCE for both Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Why do I support their independence? For the same basic reason that I support Chechen, Dagestani, and Ingush independence. Chechnya, Dagestan, and the Republic of Ingushetia, are enslaved holdovers from Imperial Russia, and then Soviet Communism. That entire Caucasus mountains region historically has been made up of small independent kingdoms with their own unique languages and native cultures. Only when the Tsars felt the need to conquer more territory were those people groups forcibly annexed into the Russian kingdom.

When the Soviet Union fell (Putin's "greatest geopolitical tragedy of the 20th century"), the Chechen people, the Dagestani people, and the Ingush people, have voted overwhelmingly in referendums to be independent from Russia. Russia has fought two wars to force them to stay. (Wait! Doesn't the Kremlin like referendums?!)

FT, if you truly have a sense of fair play, then join in calls for Mr. Putin to allow the direct election of governors in the Caucasus republics. Following Beslan, Mr. Putin overrode the RF Constitution and decreed that he would handpick all of Russia's 83 governors. In 2013 he restored the Constitutional right to most republics, although the Kremlin can veto a candidate from appearing on the ballot. In the Caucasus however, he still appoints governors.

Gullible? Yes, you are. Not from a lack of intelligence, but from ignorance of the region, and shortfall in common logic. I am beginning to realize that by the time we complete debating, you'll have learned a lot. Just think of me as your professor.

BTW, the first tuition bill is due. I don't make student loans, so haul out that checkbook and start writing.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 02:48:38 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1427 on: January 31, 2015, 02:47:33 PM »
I just clicked on your link.

You didn't even read the damn thing. All you saw was a misleading heading.




Colonial America (1492-1763) What's so hard to understand about that? There's also a picture of a timeline that says the same thing for those who have reading comprehension problems. Like I said before, register your complaint with them if you don't like what you're reading.


No wonder the Europeans think that Americans are dumb.



Don't be so hard on yourself. If you didn't follow me around on the forum and try so hard to prove me wrong at every turn, you'd look a lot smarter than you are now. You're probably a Patriots fan? Go Seahawks!
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Muzh

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1428 on: January 31, 2015, 05:01:36 PM »

Colonial America (1492-1763) What's so hard to understand about that? There's also a picture of a timeline that says the same thing for those who have reading comprehension problems. Like I said before, register your complaint with them if you don't like what you're reading.



Farging hilarious. I almost choked on my drink.


So, you need pictures because the book has too many words?


Don't be so hard on yourself. If you didn't follow me around on the forum and try so hard to prove me wrong at every turn, you'd look a lot smarter than you are now. You're probably a Patriots fan? Go Seahawks!


I love you Billy. You think the world of yourself. Nothing wrong with that.


Thanks for the laugh.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1429 on: January 31, 2015, 05:38:02 PM »
That was an interesting post Mendeleyev,  if what you say is entirely accurate it would appear the Huffington Post could use a more informed writer....I get that there are different commentaries about why a nation stopped doing x, y and z and it is nice to hear yours....Here in the US, we could have one event occur and 40 different versions will appear.    I may be ready you wrong, but it seems you are convinced it was US pressure (the moving battle group) that stopped Russian progress...although G. Bush had stated their would be no military provocation.   That doesn't seemed to have worked in this case in Ukraine.  So the battle rages on. 




I appreciate all the background information you provided and will have to repay you by presenting more fodder at some point soon...my checking account is overdrawn at this time.  :D


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline AC

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1430 on: January 31, 2015, 06:13:12 PM »
Everyday someone seems to shock you with the most idiotic thing you've ever heard. Figure out where the malfunction is.

 :ROFL:


Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1431 on: January 31, 2015, 08:12:26 PM »
Quote
I may be ready you wrong, but it seems you are convinced it was US pressure (the moving battle group) that stopped Russian progress...although G. Bush had stated their would be no military provocation.

FT, like you I understand that Bush had said the US would not engage in battle. The Naval battle group was there for moral support, to rattle a few sabres in the direction of the Kremlin, and to show Georgians that they had not been forgotten.

What did worry the Russians were the military transport planes coming in with humanitarian aid. Russia was at that time in no position to engage the US. Their bombing raids of towns (plenty of civilian casualities) were getting closer and closer to the capital. The threat that a hit on one of those planes would be treated as an act of war did resonate inside those Kremlin walls.

Putin used that tactic himself this past summer with his own "humanitarian" convoy into Ukraine. He gave Poroshenko the same message; an attack on the convoy would be seen as an attack on Russia.
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Offline BillyB

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1432 on: January 31, 2015, 09:02:25 PM »
Bush is also not afraid to go to war under certain conditions and I think Putin understood that. Mendy has a point if Russia shot down US military planes, that can change the ballgame.


Putin also respects Bush and his father. Putin send a birthday present to Sr. Bush last year. Putin does not see Obama as a strong leader and thus does not respect him. Bush was also better than Obama when dealing with Putin. Some people say they had a bromance.


Bromance


In other news, Putin give the military 50 nukes to play with.


Just Nuke the West
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Muzh

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Russian Think Tank That Pushed for Invasion of Ukraine Wants Moscow to Overthrow
« Reply #1433 on: February 02, 2015, 09:57:38 AM »
Quote
Analysts at the Russian Institute for Strategic Research (RISI), a Moscow-based think tank that pushed hard for Russia to invade Ukraine, are now urging Moscow to overthrow Belarusian leader Alyaksandr Lukashenka.


Quote
as has historically been the case with most Russian leaders, Putin appears to be attracted by grandiose plans—by a picture of the world in which he plays a central and transforming role. More than any other of those supposedly close to him, RISI and Reshetnikov provide the Kremlin leader with exactly that kind of image of the world and one that may be increasingly pleasant for him because it does not have the downsides of other proposed systems like Eurasianism. The latter, for example, would specifically involve making Russia part of something larger and less ethnically defined, consequently breaking it from its single historical course. What RISI is offering, if Sytin’s assertions are correct, is a set of views in which Putin can have his cake and eat it, too.


http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=43458&cHash=7a202945ac364185e5021fc5dbf28fde#.VM-qP53F_mf
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Offline calmissile

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http://www.jamestown.org/programs/edm/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=43458&cHash=7a202945ac364185e5021fc5dbf28fde#.VM-qP53F_mf

Thanks for posting.  It does not surprise me a bit.  While Europe sleeps away, Putin will be making advances on other countries and their leaders.  If he can invade and take Crimea with no response from the West, he certainly can take other countries when the opportunity arises. He knows he has 2 years before the US can replace it's ineffective president.  This is a lot of time to create mischief.   
Doug (Calmissile)

Offline Gator

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IIRC from reading reports, the Belarus economy fared almost as poorly as the Ukrainian economy over the past 25 years of independence.  Certainly not matching Russia's economy and not doing as well as neighboring Poland's. 

Thus, the Belarusian people may see Putin as a white knight.  Is not Lukashenko recognized as Europe's last dictator, prompting him to say ""Better to be a dictator than gay."  Why would Putin wish to overthrow a fellow homophobe?

Dictators such as Lukashenko do not step down without blood letting.

Online Hammer2722

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IIRC from reading reports, the Belarus economy fared almost as poorly as the Ukrainian economy over the past 25 years of independence.  Certainly not matching Russia's economy and not doing as well as neighboring Poland's. 

Thus, the Belarusian people may see Putin as a white knight.  Is not Lukashenko recognized as Europe's last dictator, prompting him to say ""Better to be a dictator than gay."  Why would Putin wish to overthrow a fellow homophobe?

Not likely, my girl says all her friends and family in Belarus trust Putin as far as they can throw him.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:10:41 PM by Hammer2722 »
every ship can be a minesweeper at least once...

Offline Gator

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Not likely, my girl says all her friends and family in Belarus trust Putin as far as they can throw him.

Good!  Lukashenko may be a dirt bag, but he is their dirt bag. :D 

To think that many of us, including me, complain about Obama and Congress.  Count our blessings and hope Obama and Congress can make some headway together. 

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1438 on: February 02, 2015, 02:50:13 PM »
Luka is worried, and for good reason. The last several meetings of Putin and Lukashenko have been lukewarm at best--their body language is very foreboding.

At first I pegged the new laws passed in Belarus as a way to side step the upcoming elections, however I have come to regard Jamestown with very high respect. I also know of several of the Kremlin players mentioned, and if events start to happen in Belarus as the elections draw near, that will only affirm what this report says.

Lukashenko has begun to lean West more and more, a slow but steady change in course. That has indeed angered Putin, and on the long-range scale it also threatens the success of the Eurasian Union.

Lukashenko's views on the invasion of Ukraine, and the fact that he has hosted some of the international summits on the subject in Minsk, has placed a great distance between the two and Mr. Putin apparently feels that Luka is pandering to the West.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 02:54:19 PM by mendeleyev »
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Offline Photo Guy

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1439 on: February 03, 2015, 10:57:58 AM »
Lukashenko has been sort of a nice surprise in the last year. I think part of the motivation is to keep control of Belarus and not allow it to become another state of Putin. He seems to be a lot less of a puppet than Yanukovych was.

The Minsk agreement. That's the key now. Ukraine and the West should insist on keeping the dividing line in place. Draw a line in the sand. Make it clear to Putin that Ukraine will not allow separatist to expand beyond the line drawn by the Minsk agreement. By saying that, it will make it clear that all military actions by Ukraine and the West have the goal of containment, a defensive posture that will counter any expansion by the Russian/Separatists. Along with that directive, work on securing another cease-fire. Talking about maintaining that dividing line will create a clarification that will be hard for Putin and Lavrov to disregard, rhetorically and physically. The West and Ukrainians need to be clear and firm about this.

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1440 on: February 03, 2015, 01:22:32 PM »
I would agree, PhotoGuy. Putin will expand as far as the West allows.
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Offline Photo Guy

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1441 on: February 03, 2015, 03:40:59 PM »
Hello? What do Lavrov and Putin think of this?:
  '...DEBALTSEVE, Ukraine – Kremlin-backed separatists set about reducing the Ukrainian-held Debaltseve to rubble on Feb. 3, despite a promised cease-fire and the presence of several thousand civilians in the Donetsk Oblast city...'
the article:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/kyiv-post-plus/kremlin-backed-separatists-look-to-level-debaltseve-379386.html

Offline Steamer

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1442 on: February 03, 2015, 06:53:35 PM »
Hello? What do Lavrov and Putin think of this?


Probably something like: "Gee, that's tough shitsky comrade"




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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1443 on: February 03, 2015, 06:57:34 PM »
What is "shitsky"?

Offline fathertime

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1444 on: February 03, 2015, 10:19:48 PM »
I just happened to be browsing the internet this evening and ran across this opinion piece on CNN.  BASED ON THIS ARTICLE, I think if it were possible to negotiate a truce I'd just let go of the Eastern Reaches completely and keep them out of Ukraine altogether...might be the best of bad options.  The question I'd have is just how much will Russia live with, and let us live with!   Well anyway here is the article:


http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/03/opinion/aron-putin-endgame/index.html




Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline mendeleyev

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1445 on: February 04, 2015, 01:49:30 AM »
The article essentially says what I believe: Putin MUST control Ukraine, at all costs. There is no option of giving him a little to make him go away. Look at his track record in South Ossetia, Abkhazia, and Transnistria. Sure, he'd agree to a sliver if it means that the West walks away and eases sanctions, but make no mistake about it--he MUST have the whole all of wax. The Eurasian Union, his economic ace, cannot, simply cannot, in any form or fashion, survive without Ukraine.

Giving away a piece now is like giving the school ground bully your celery and cucumber slices in the vain hope that he will not take your double cheeseburger.

As the article states clearly, the West must grow some backbone, and keep up or even intensify the pressure.
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Offline LiveFromUkraine

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1446 on: February 04, 2015, 03:41:06 AM »

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1447 on: February 04, 2015, 05:05:26 AM »

 As the article states clearly, the West must grow some backbone, and keep up or even intensify the pressure.
BTW, Germany, Hungary   and other countries don't want to supply Ukraine with weapon just because EU doesn't want any more pressure.

Offline Boethius

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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1448 on: February 04, 2015, 08:15:06 AM »
BTW, Germany, Hungary   and other countries don't want to supply Ukraine with weapon just because EU doesn't want any more pressure.


No.  Germany doesn't want to because they believe there must be a diplomatic solution to this issue.  However, there won't be a diplomatic solution when one side (Putin) is lying to negotiators.
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Re: The Propaganda War
« Reply #1449 on: February 04, 2015, 09:23:55 AM »

No.  Germany doesn't want to because they believe there must be a diplomatic solution to this issue.  However, there won't be a diplomatic solution when one side (Putin) is lying to negotiators.
My dear, I quoted Merkel.- just didn't have time in the morning to find the link (had to go to work)))
 

 

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