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Author Topic: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.  (Read 158906 times)

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lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #275 on: October 22, 2014, 04:50:10 AM »
Stop your whining, it's embarrassing.  Who elected you head white flag waver anyways?  Pathetic.

The response of the Ukrainian patriots inspires freedom loving people worldwide.  Yet the West is not helping Ukraine.  Even you admit that or are you defending our response?  Our response  is pathetic. 

Offline Gator

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #276 on: October 22, 2014, 09:11:49 AM »
Poroshenko and Ukrainian loyalists should re-draw Ukraine's eastern border.....

This is Fathertime's win-win scenario, except it still is  not a "win."   What about the citizens in the affected area?  A plebiscite is the only answer, yet a plebiscite in a war ravaged area evacuated by many residents would not be valid IMO.

The world essentially is supporting Ukraine.  Let the sanctions continue against Russia.    Meanwhile, Ukraine needs to work on getting the rest of its house in order. 

Ukraine should defend the existing ceasefire lines.  If the rebels go on offensive and expand, tighten the sanctions.

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #277 on: October 22, 2014, 09:58:56 AM »
The response of the Ukrainian patriots inspires freedom loving people worldwide.  Yet the West is not helping Ukraine.  Even you admit that or are you defending our response?  Our response  is pathetic.

Okay, I see what you were trying to say.  Our response with the sanctions is good; but there needs to be more help coming for Ukraine.  They also need to get their house in order in regards to alleged official corruption. 

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #278 on: October 22, 2014, 10:01:46 AM »
This is Fathertime's win-win scenario, except it still is  not a "win."   What about the citizens in the affected area?  A plebiscite is the only answer, yet a plebiscite in a war ravaged area evacuated by many residents would not be valid IMO.

The world essentially is supporting Ukraine.  Let the sanctions continue against Russia.    Meanwhile, Ukraine needs to work on getting the rest of its house in order. 

Ukraine should defend the existing ceasefire lines.  If the rebels go on offensive and expand, tighten the sanctions.

Agreed; but even better or in addition to sanctions is give Ukraine the heavy weapons they need to ensure that Putin never gets his land bridge to Crimea, while simultaneously further isolating the Putin regime.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #279 on: October 22, 2014, 02:23:20 PM »


Are there things worth fighting WWIII over?


Well try to look at this from Putin's viewpoint, he might decide that being defeated by NATO/US forces (and an uncertain aftermath for him personallY) would be reason enough to escalate into WWIII and quite possibly the use of atomic weaponry . 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #280 on: October 22, 2014, 03:48:27 PM »
So a Russian first strike is on the table as rational.  1 nuke or all 1500 to 5000?  Tactical or Strategic?

Offline fathertime

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #281 on: October 22, 2014, 04:02:38 PM »
So a Russian first strike is on the table as rational. 


I didn't comment about it being rational. What do you think he would do?


Fathertime! 




I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #282 on: October 22, 2014, 05:55:17 PM »
He likely strike first.  Probably at US.  That's what I would do.  Take out America and send a message.  Europe would be mine.  If after I nuked America and Europe doesn't bend over, wipe out Warsaw.  Then people will trade in Rubles.

Offline calmissile

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #283 on: October 22, 2014, 07:59:49 PM »
He likely strike first.  Probably at US.  That's what I would do.  Take out America and send a message.  Europe would be mine.  If after I nuked America and Europe doesn't bend over, wipe out Warsaw.  Then people will trade in Rubles.

I think you have lost your mind!  Putin knows that the first nuke coming to the USA will result in him becoming radioactive dust.    The survive-ability of our our nukes are adaquate to make sure of it. That is why MAD has worked for so many years (on both sides).

Your imagination must be running overtime in preparation for your next comic book.
Doug (Calmissile)

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #284 on: October 22, 2014, 08:32:54 PM »
One man is only authorized a counter strike, will he give the order?

But hey since you reassuredly me that nukes will not be used by anyone, I guess there is nothing to worry about.

Offline Muzh

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #285 on: October 23, 2014, 01:54:37 AM »

Betting big money? How much? I'll be delighted to take a little of you public pension, although I don't mind if you think i'm from Cuba. 


I'll be curious to see how you deflect and scamper away now that I have called your definite bluff!  :D


Fathertime!


Absolutely pathetic.


Let's see your win-win scenario. Give to Russia blanket approval to change territorial integrity in sovereign countries. Then castrate US response to Russia's aggression in the name of saving (American and Russian) lives. On top of that have the US recognize the act of aggression as legitimate with the pretext of being humanitarian.


Quick question for you. Who is benefitting here? Very simple answer to the thinking man and woman.


You can take your time or deflect, tovarish, which is your MO.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #286 on: October 23, 2014, 01:56:10 AM »

Well try to look at this from Putin's viewpoint, he might decide that being defeated by NATO/US forces (and an uncertain aftermath for him personallY) would be reason enough to escalate into WWIII and quite possibly the use of atomic weaponry . 


Fathertime!


From Putler's POV?


I rest my case.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Muzh

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #287 on: October 23, 2014, 02:01:30 AM »

I didn't comment about it being rational. What do you think he would do?


Fathertime!


This is absolute bullshit.


You know who is another country that bluff their way into concessions by claiming nuclear strikes? North Korea. And you know that when you talk about N. Korea you have to qualify it with lunatic.


There is a reason analysts have already coined the term "the North Korea Syndrome."


However, nice try tovarish.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #288 on: October 23, 2014, 03:00:49 AM »
This thread has really descended into a farce.

For all of Putin's chest-beating during his obvious mid-life crisis,i cannot imagine he would seriously consider a first nuclear strike against the USA or Europe..i'm sure he's well aware that would very quickly lead to the total obliteration of...Russia,even if some on here don't seem to comprehend that....the USA and Europe have plenty of Nukes too..they'll be flying within seconds of any Russian Nukes launched  :rolleyes:

If the people in power in Russia even consider he'd do that it's time to remove him from office..or he'll be the death of all of them..and their families..unless they wish to see out their lives in underground bunkers.


Just saying it like it is.

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #289 on: October 23, 2014, 03:30:38 AM »
So we have 3 pro-Ukrainians on record as trusting Putin not to use them.  Any more?

Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #290 on: October 23, 2014, 04:26:11 AM »
Actually i'm not particularly pro-Ukrainian.

I don't have a Ukrainian wife or girlfriend,so i have no vested interest in what has been happening in Ukraine.

From my PERSONAL  experience of dealing with Ukrainians,they can be no more trusted than the Russians..although obviously there are good people in both countries...unfortunately probably not the ones who have any power.

However,as someone who can clearly see who is in the wrong,without being blinkered by prejudices or political views or having to worry about what a Ukrainian/Russian wife/girlfriend thinks,or gloating about now being able to buy cheap property in Crimea( so no vested interest there then :rolleyes: )it's plainly obvious that a country that invades part of it's adjoining country and STEALS that  land then supplies men and weapons to cause deaths and conflict in another part of that country is in the wrong...despite all the ramblings from the pro-Russian/anti-west conspiracy theorists on here and elsewhere.

Also,at least some Ukrainians had the courage to overthrow a corrupt President/Putin crony who was bleeding their country dry,and some lost their lives doing so.

Personally,i feel Putin is too greedy to risk losing everything, including all his material possessions,  in a nuclear holocaust that he started.

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 04:33:40 AM by Chelseaboy »
Just saying it like it is.

Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #291 on: October 23, 2014, 09:50:26 AM »
So we have 3 pro-Ukrainians on record as trusting Putin not to use them.  Any more?

Moscow's nuclear stockpile is second largest on the planet if memory serves, of which, somewhere around 80% are pre Soviet era break up. In other words antiquated.

More importantly, Moscow doesn't have modern delivery systems/platforms. Russia does not have first strike capability *period*. However, even if they did launch/deploy first, they have no ballistic missile defense shield to stop what would be a simultaneous/coordinated nuclear response from several countries.

Russia is a formidable regional power or as one poster here put it 'a regional power with nucs' or words to that effect. They are no match for the U.S. or core NATO countries strategic nuclear or conventional forces. Putin knows this.

My opinion is that Putin/Kremlin would not employ nuclear weapons whether tactical or ballistic unless Russian territory itself was invaded/overrun and even then it'd be a desperation move.

The Russian military machine is a house of cards. It's Navy obsolete, it's airforce badly in need of modernizing and it's ground forces for the most part staffed with poorly trained conscripts. They are scrambling to modernize/rebuild but estimates are 2018-2020 before they see any results. That's if they have the funds to go ahead with Putin's grandiose plans in the first place (which I doubt).

Brass

« Last Edit: October 23, 2014, 09:52:15 AM by Brasscasing »
...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #292 on: October 23, 2014, 01:02:06 PM »

However,as someone who can clearly see who is in the wrong,without being blinkered by prejudices or political views or having to worry about what a Ukrainian/Russian wife/girlfriend thinks,or gloating about now being able to buy cheap property in Crimea( so no vested interest there then :rolleyes: )it's plainly obvious that a country that invades part of it's adjoining country and STEALS that  land then supplies men and weapons to cause deaths and conflict in another part of that country is in the wrong...despite all the ramblings from the pro-Russian/anti-west conspiracy theorists on here and elsewhere.


 :clapping:

Offline fathertime

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #293 on: October 23, 2014, 03:02:44 PM »
He likely strike first.  Probably at US.  That's what I would do.  Take out America and send a message.  Europe would be mine.  If after I nuked America and Europe doesn't bend over, wipe out Warsaw.  Then people will trade in Rubles.

If Putin were permitted by those around him to fire a nuke at the USA,  I can't imagine that  this wouldn't be met with an enormous and severe response.  He would know this, so it would be an act of desperation and I think western leaders know better then to push that hard. I think the leaders of countries will find a way through this particular conflict without it escalating to that point.

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #294 on: October 23, 2014, 03:36:15 PM »
Brass threw a lot of Cold Water on their 1st Strike capabilities.  I have to verify it but I think he is right.

Let's just say he did have the capability, do you think Obama would fire back?

Unlike the CW calculus, post CW nuke war, you would not want to blow your load.  Also nonparticipatants would eventually win any limited nuclear war, do they not become combatants at worst or rivals in the post war peace?

Chelseaboy is right.  Its all absurd, but given the 62 year old's ability to stun and amaze, you have to consider all options IMHO FWIW

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #295 on: October 23, 2014, 05:13:44 PM »
The Russian military machine is a house of cards. It's Navy obsolete, it's airforce badly in need of modernizing and it's ground forces for the most part staffed with poorly trained conscripts. They are scrambling to modernize/rebuild but estimates are 2018-2020 before they see any results. That's if they have the funds to go ahead with Putin's grandiose plans in the first place (which I doubt).

Brass

Are you sure?  These "poorly trained conscripts" won the most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine in, according to one of the captured Ukrainian solders, 20 minutes!  After that, Poroshenko was pretty much forced to beg Russia for a ceasefire.

Offline missAmeno

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #296 on: October 23, 2014, 06:10:11 PM »
Are you sure?  These "poorly trained conscripts" won the most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine in, according to one of the captured Ukrainian solders, 20 minutes!  After that, Poroshenko was pretty much forced to beg Russia for a ceasefire.

Did you loose your mind? Aren't those "poorly trained conscripts" not even in Ukraine?
Putin will go in history as the man who made russia and all russians together with it into nothing more than a disgrace and a repugnance.

Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #297 on: October 23, 2014, 06:28:20 PM »
Did you loose your mind? Aren't those "poorly trained conscripts" not even in Ukraine?

 :ROFL:

I'm sorry, missAmeno - of course, those were just "ghost" soldiers (not on the official payroll)!

Putin will go in history as the man who made russia and all many russians together with it into nothing more than a disgrace and a repugnance.

If this carries on for much longer, I believe you may be right, although I've edited your quote slightly.  You can't generalise to that extent, no matter how it may seem.


Offline Brasscasing

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #298 on: October 23, 2014, 06:51:45 PM »
Are you sure?  These "poorly trained conscripts" won the most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine in, according to one of the captured Ukrainian solders, 20 minutes!  After that, Poroshenko was pretty much forced to beg Russia for a ceasefire.

I'll assume it's Novoazovsk your referring to as the "most decisive battle of the war in Ukraine" as this is the only military operation the Russians were involved in up to that point in the war that could be construed as a success.

I would argue that Russian armored columns with tanks numbering in the hundreds, heavy artillery and combat support battalions launching a surprise attack to open a new front from across the Russian border over a hundred kilometres from the established war zone by (what Moscow still insists is) a non combatant country as more of an ambush than decisive battle.

Even then, the meager units that were available to reinforce the Ukraine army in the immediate area after the initial fire fights did regroup and blunted the incursion.

Your question ties two unrelated subjects together but to answer am I sure of my assessment of the training and over all battle readiness of the Russian conscript soldier? Yeah, I'm sure.

You claim it was Poroshenko who was forced to beg for a cease fire. Again, assuming your talking about the cease fire (such as it is) currently in place. It was Putin who drafted and approached Poroshenko with a proposal not the other way around.

Brass



...Build the wall. Even Heaven has a gate...

"Because without America there is no free world" ~ Canada Free Press

Offline southernX

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Re: Poroshenko claims Ukraine is now being offered weapons by NATO.
« Reply #299 on: October 23, 2014, 08:29:47 PM »
BRASS,
i would agree with you ,
 
 ukraines fighting spirit has shown true grit which has surprised some people i think  ;)

SX
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

 

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