The Russian/Syrian connection thread

[tfcrew]

 
Specifically targeting leaders of nations opens a can of worms

What comes to mind would be Muammar Gaddafy .. Hosni Mubarak..Saddam Hussein.
You know...Michael Flynn was fired [by Obama] because he expressed disagreement with Barry's soft stance on Islamic extremism.
Think he will ever get an apology from someone who refused to say those very words?
In my book Assad is no 'leader'.

[Boethius]

Not so much Syria, but connected.  This is an interesting article about growing Russian military and economic influence in North Africa -


http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/north-africa/2017-04-03/russia-s-charm-offensive-north-africa

[BillyB]

American military kills over 100 Russians in one attack. Russia does not protest.


http://www.yahoo.com/news/m/73a6ae72-c224-3813-9dae-f809c260f8c0/ss_us-strikes-kill-100-russian.html

[msmob]

Strange article - considering Russia, Syria and a mercenary ( Igor Girkin - of Donbas infamy [Strelkov])  have  complained and I even posted a thread on the subject here.

[ML]

American military kills over 100 Russians in one attack. Russia does not protest.


http://www.yahoo.com/news/m/73a6ae72-c224-3813-9dae-f809c260f8c0/ss_us-strikes-kill-100-russian.html

Let's see if this will be reported by any Russian news publication.

I noted earlier how the cozy marriages and engagements between WM and RW could start to unravel when the sheeeeeet hits home.

[msmob]

Let's see if this will be reported by any Russian news publication.

Sighs..... it has ..   

I noted earlier how the cozy marriages and engagements between WM and RW could start to unravel when the sheeeeeet hits home.

Hmm, I realise you are stubborn and keep dodging my Irish British analogy- hint ... Were all German's 'Nazi's'?  Were all Irish supporters of violence to achieve a United Ireland ?  Did British guys married to Irish lasses 'divorce' over 700 years of differences ?  I certainly can't 'blame ' my partner for actions of her govt in Syria / Donbas / Crimea - nor does she 'blame' me for Britain's long aims to undermine the Soviet Union - whilst they tried to do the same to the UK govt. It's not like some Russians aren't trying to seek a change - at great cost.. ...but you've been going there a lot, recently - so you'd 'know' ...

[BillyB]

Let's see if this will be reported by any Russian news publication.

The real question is will Putin admit to sending ground troops to Syria for ground operations? It would look bad for him if Russian troops are dying in Syria. If the operation was done with covert Russian special ops troops, Putin will say he didn't order them to go there and it was those men's decision following their hearts to help Syrians like they helped Ukrainians.

[msmob]

The real question is will Putin admit to sending ground troops to Syria for ground operations? It would look bad for him if Russian troops are dying in Syria. If the operation was done with covert Russian special ops troops, Putin will say he didn't order them to go there and it was those men's decision following their hearts to help Syrians like they helped Ukrainians.

More heavy sighs ..

The 'official line' of Syria / Moscow is that they were / are 'contractors' 

Suggest you ask a Russian speaker to browse the RU news ....

[BillyB]

The 'official line' of Syria / Moscow is that they were / are 'contractors' 

Many are paramilitary working for private contractor Wagner which gets paid by the Russian government to do jobs where deniability is called for.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Group

[ML]

Hmm, I realise you are stubborn and keep dodging my Irish British analogy- hint ... Were all German's 'Nazi's'?  Were all Irish supporters of violence to achieve a United Ireland ?  Did British guys married to Irish lasses 'divorce' over 700 years of differences ?

You analogy is not appropriate.

My point is:  When Russian wife/friend finds out that her Russian relative/friend is killed by USA soldier.

Or when USA husband/friend finds out his USA relative/friend is killed by Russian action which his Russian wife/friend fully supports.

[msmob]

You analogy is not appropriate.

Au contraire.. it is nigh on perfect

British soldiers were killed by folks believing themselves to be occupied and Irish folks came to the UK to seek work - there were those that sheltered the terrorists.   You know Ireland , You should know the history - hence my pushing you on the folly of your stance. 

I was married to R.Catholic - I, a  Protestant ...  I consequently have near zero-tolerance of ignorant bigots who suggested the marriage wouldn't work because of politics / religion..   Her relations thought the British occupied their land and I was in Dublin bar the night the IRA tried to mortar John Major and his Cabinet - there was a roar of "shame they missed the bastards" - followed by "present company excepted "..

For a long time the Irish govt didn't tackle the known murderers and UK govt locked up folks without trial - polarising communities - to the extent physical walls between the communities went up and folks were fire-bombed out of their homes - to 'purify the area' ..

So this why your point

"When Russian wife/friend finds out that her Russian relative/friend is killed by USA soldier."  doesn't mean there has to be a schism ...  Other family members and friends tend to be a bigger problem and ignorant.

Plenty of British folks were killed by the IRA ... Did the Brits on the 'mainland' (GB) throw out the Irish ... no ?

We are born into nations where the news and our teachers influence us and I've been a 'victim' of this indoctrination. No side is completely right or wrong .. Wars tend to start when nations go protectionist. When govts stop talking and build up arms ... testing these in another theatre of war ..

History appears to be repeating itself

[ML]

Au contraire.. it is nigh on perfect

You are still totally wrong with your attempts at comparison.

All of your ideas of that group against this group  or that nation against this nation . . .

pale in comparison to the result when a member of 'that group' kills your family member, and your mate supports the killing or at least supports those who ordered the killing.

finem colloquium.

[msmob]

You are still totally wrong with your attempts at comparison.

All of your ideas of that group against this group  or that nation against this nation . . .

pale in comparison to the result when a member of 'that group' kills your family member, and your mate supports the killing or at least supports those who ordered the killing.

finem colloquium.

You might seek the  'end of interview' but I'm afraid I'm not finished with your inability to rationalise ... 

I have lived in N.Ireland and Cyprus and encountered lots of real instances where a close friend / family member has died / suffered life long injury at the hands of a army / 'terrorists' - putting stress on friendships, marriages or where a brother fights a brother on opposing sides .

YES, such events can even cause a govt to intern your loved ones (US Japanese ) - but the US didn't round up Germans or Italians ...

Life's hard enough as it is - without worrying what might happen because of the actions of those we do not influence.

Your 'crusade' against pursuing a relationship with a Russian - because of the actions of their govt  -is as daft as Zhironovsky suggesting RW are wrong to want to marry a westerner and should be subject to a dowry tax before she can leave

[alex330]

YES, such events can even cause a govt to intern your loved ones (US Japanese ) - but the US didn't round up Germans or Italians ...

Actually we did round up a number of Germans during WWI and WWII. We even forced many countries in Latin America to send us Germans for our prisons here.

[msmob]

Actually we did round up a number of Germans during WWI and WWII. We even forced many countries in Latin America to send us Germans for our prisons here.

Hi Alex,

Thanks for the correction

My point was that the Japs were the only Axis  powers people locked up wholesale.

[alex330]

My point was that the Japs were the only Axis  powers people locked up wholesale.

Think it was around 15,000 Germans. Not a small number. Japanese were 120k or so. I met four Japanese Americans (two couples) on an airport layover who were locked up. They were surprisingly not bitter about it. Of course they were in their 80's at that point.


Both men went on to serve in the military on the European front to secure their release.

[msmob]

Think it was around 15,000 Germans. Not a small number. Japanese were 120k or so. I met four Japanese Americans (two couples) on an airport layover who were locked up. They were surprisingly not bitter about it. Of course they were in their 80's at that point.


Both men went on to serve in the military on the European front to secure their release.

It would be great to work out how many Finns and Italians were locked up - until they swapped sides - and what about the French - how to know if they were Vichy or Nazi occupied French ?!

IMHO it makes a a mockery of ML's rigid stance - but the attitude of the Japanese is wonderful. 

I knew a Polish couple who fought in the Polish resistance and - somehow - got through the German lines, as the Soviets 'liberated' Warsaw. Britain and France joined in WW2 to get the Germans out of Poland - ending up helping Soviets - who also occupied Poland - taking part of the territory 'back' to Ukraine Lwow( Lviv / Lvov) - they couldn't go back for over forty years ((

Why 'we' say we won the war - as Poland went from one authoritarian regime to another - I'll never know...

[jone]

I've always had a problem with the way that the US has handled the internees, both Japanese and German.  But not for the reason people may think:

After Pearl Harbor, the US was on her knees with the body blow delivered by the Japanese navy.  It had no battleships remaining in the Pacific.  Had not Halsey sortied the carriers and those carriers were not in port, those would have been lost as well.  Had the Japanese hit the fuel dumps in Hawaii, the Pacific Fleet would have been refueling at Mare Island.

The US was actually fighting for existence, and loss of territory, as were many of the other allied powers.  Coupled with this sense of impending doom is the fact that the Japanese were a subculture, both in Hawaii and on the West Coast.  Because of the absolute differences between cultures, people of Japanese ancestry were obligated to the homeland and the Emperor, who was still considered, at that time, to be a god.  We all scoff at that idea today and see Americans of Japanese descent as being totally integrated into American society.   Not so back then.

Our generation will never know that Americans living overseas were rounded up and processed into Japanese work camps, as were many other ethnic groups.  In China, Japan actually just killed most of the locals in areas that were deemed necessary to the war efforts.   The US solution was to remove the Japanese from areas that they might have had access to influence the war. 

I believe that they did right to do so. 

While I cannot put myself in the shoes of the Japanese internees, I can put myself in the shoes of those trying to defend the country from a ruthless and surprise attack.  The Japanese maintained their culture throughout the war years.  A number of Japanese 'US citizens' actually committed suicide when Hirohito surrendered. 

The other side of the coin, is that those Japanese who were willing to soldier for the US in Italy (which they did) proved that they were more American than Japanese.  Like all Americans who fought in WWII, they were honored to the extent possible.

My father lost his four closest friends, growing up, to bullets from Japanese and German (and Italian) soldiers.  There was a palpable dislike, bordering on hatred, for people from those countries that were in the Axis. 

Had the US not interned the Japanese, I believe there would have been an underground movement, similar to the resistance in France. 

The Germans, on the other hand, were not necessarily segregated from American society.  Many US employers took German POWs and had them as employees, after the war, even giving them permanent jobs.   In my hometown, one such POW is still remembered as being an actual contributor to the community.  And I am told that all of the younger girls had crushes on him by one of those gals who did.  My society, growing up, was ethnic German.  Many in my town spoke German and we had a local Lutheran church and high school, where some of the sermons were in German back in the 40s and 50s.  Towns in Wisconsin were named Berlin, New Berlin, Kiel, to mention a few. 

I was reading a statement last night of how much German ethnicity is in the midwest.  It borders on 45% in States like North Dakota and South Dakota, to 20% in Michigan.  But most of those ethnic Germans came to the US in the 1840s through the 1870s.  On the East Coast, however, there was not as much German ancestry and, especially in New York and Washington, D.C., there were plenty of German operatives who were able to pass information back to the Third Reich.

[msmob]

As mentioned Igor (Strelkov - rifle) Girkin is bemoaning the losses of RU mercenaries to US strikes

http://themoscowtimes.com/news/us-airstrikes-kill-100-russian-syrian-fighters-reports-say-60445

and the Kremlin spokesman - who laughed when the BBBC suggested Russian military was involved in the Crimea Coup - wants us to believe him ..

http://www.rt.com/news/418819-distorted-data-peskov-syria/

Who to believe ?

[ML]

I've always had a problem with the way that the US has handled the internees, both Japanese and German.  But not for the reason people may think:

After Pearl Harbor, the US was on her knees with the body blow delivered by the Japanese navy.  It had no battleships remaining in the Pacific.  Had not Halsey sortied the carriers and those carriers were not in port, those would have been lost as well.  Had the Japanese hit the fuel dumps in Hawaii, the Pacific Fleet would have been refueling at Mare Island.

The US was actually fighting for existence, and loss of territory, as were many of the other allied powers.  Coupled with this sense of impending doom is the fact that the Japanese were a subculture, both in Hawaii and on the West Coast.  Because of the absolute differences between cultures, people of Japanese ancestry were obligated to the homeland and the Emperor, who was still considered, at that time, to be a god.  We all scoff at that idea today and see Americans of Japanese descent as being totally integrated into American society.   Not so back then.

Our generation will never know that Americans living overseas were rounded up and processed into Japanese work camps, as were many other ethnic groups.  In China, Japan actually just killed most of the locals in areas that were deemed necessary to the war efforts.   The US solution was to remove the Japanese from areas that they might have had access to influence the war. 

I believe that they did right to do so. 

While I cannot put myself in the shoes of the Japanese internees, I can put myself in the shoes of those trying to defend the country from a ruthless and surprise attack.  The Japanese maintained their culture throughout the war years.  A number of Japanese 'US citizens' actually committed suicide when Hirohito surrendered. 

The other side of the coin, is that those Japanese who were willing to soldier for the US in Italy (which they did) proved that they were more American than Japanese.  Like all Americans who fought in WWII, they were honored to the extent possible.

My father lost his four closest friends, growing up, to bullets from Japanese and German (and Italian) soldiers.  There was a palpable dislike, bordering on hatred, for people from those countries that were in the Axis. 

Had the US not interned the Japanese, I believe there would have been an underground movement, similar to the resistance in France. 

The Germans, on the other hand, were not necessarily segregated from American society.  Many US employers took German POWs and had them as employees, after the war, even giving them permanent jobs.   In my hometown, one such POW is still remembered as being an actual contributor to the community.  And I am told that all of the younger girls had crushes on him by one of those gals who did.  My society, growing up, was ethnic German.  Many in my town spoke German and we had a local Lutheran church and high school, where some of the sermons were in German back in the 40s and 50s.  Towns in Wisconsin were named Berlin, New Berlin, Kiel, to mention a few. 

I was reading a statement last night of how much German ethnicity is in the midwest.  It borders on 45% in States like North Dakota and South Dakota, to 20% in Michigan.  But most of those ethnic Germans came to the US in the 1840s through the 1870s.  On the East Coast, however, there was not as much German ancestry and, especially in New York and Washington, D.C., there were plenty of German operatives who were able to pass information back to the Third Reich.

Excellent and thoughtful write up.

Thanks Jon

[SANDRO43]

I've always had a problem with the way that the US has handled the internees, both Japanese and German.

Italo-Americans/Italians, too .

[Anotherkiwi]

As mentioned Igor (Strelkov - rifle) Girkin is bemoaning the losses of RU mercenaries to US strikes

http://themoscowtimes.com/news/us-airstrikes-kill-100-russian-syrian-fighters-reports-say-60445

and the Kremlin spokesman - who laughed when the BBBC suggested Russian military was involved in the Crimea Coup - wants us to believe him ..

http://www.rt.com/news/418819-distorted-data-peskov-syria/

Take extracts from these respective articles, and it just gets weirder:

Russia officially withdrew its forces from Syria in December 2017 after two years fighting in support of President Bashar al-Assad, though hundreds of private military contractors from Russia remain in the country.

Followed by:

The Russian Defense Ministry had earlier stated that Syrian militia forces came under fire from the US-led coalition on February 7 due to actions that had not been coordinated with the Russian military. The incident left 25 militiamen injured. There were no Russian military servicemen in the area, the ministry stressed.

Well, duh!  If the first one is correct, of course there were "no Russian military servicemen in the area!"  How could there be, if the last of them left Syria in December?

Who to believe indeed?

[alex330]

The real question is will Putin admit to sending ground troops to Syria for ground operations?

I am curious how these "civilian contractors" working in Ukraine and Syria keep getting medals from Russia if they are no in the military?

http://www.rferl.org/a/russia-syria-mercenaries-killed-widow-says-thrown-into-battle-like-pigs/29039898.html

"The government should avenge them somehow"

[fathertime]

I am curious how these "civilian contractors" working in Ukraine and Syria keep getting medals from Russia if they are no in the military?

http://www.rferl.org/a/russia-syria-mercenaries-killed-widow-says-thrown-into-battle-like-pigs/29039898.html

"The government should avenge them somehow"

although there is a decent chance we accidentally killed russians, they may accidentally kill a few dozen of our contractors next.

We are invaders in Syria, and need to leave instead of intentionally making matters worse. 

Fathertime!   

[alex330]

although there is a decent chance we accidentally killed russians, they may accidentally kill a few dozen of our contractors next.

I read an article that mentions Putin may be testing us. Evidence points to the Russian troops crossing the line to launch an attack on our positions. I believe this could be a possibility.

Yes, they could certainly retaliate. We may be heading into a full on proxy war with "merc" casualties.