New dating search Specification & what I've Learned

[Trenchcoat]

That's conservative..

800 plus for ILR
1200-1500 for FLR
1400 for citizenship
plus the tests for English ability/ knowledge of Britain..  Yours and her Airline trips / accommodation, etc

prices in GBP ,,add 30 percent ( Thanks Brexit voting idiots for torpedoing our economy and currency)

Having worn the t-shirt and travelled to more cities than the FSU than most W folks your having a 'larf, right ?   It applies in the real world ..


I see you ain't 'getting it', still


If you meet a women who is a match the 'hardness' will be negated by the rewards.. you'll be a team.

Mately, you'll know pretty quickly if you're into each other and want to be a team.....  whether she can adjust to the different lifestyle is greatly down to our ability to provide stability.

What worries me is you keep bringing up the cost ... if cost is a factor ... get out of the game, now... It is much simpler to find a local lass - or even a FSU lady who is already here )


For sure this endeavour is largely decided by luck - right dating site, right time, etc., but your criteria are deeply limiting

Thanks, msmobyone that is informative info, a lot I didnt know since it is often more entry to the US we hear about on here, green card, etc. I've just had a quick look but it looks like you could just do ILR or FLR initially rather than both so saving cost there, also postal applications look cheaper. Then it is just a 3 year live in the UK for girl to get citizenship which seems reasonable in case it all went south. I guess on top of this there is the cost of wedding though I think that can probably be done fairly cheap in the FSU.

General point is not that I can not afford to go for a FSW but it makes sense to me to make it as cost effective as possible without ruining or hampering the search/relationship. For sure if I was to be frivolous with money it would get to a point where I would be saying hey this is becoming too burdensome or I'm running out of money. Just makes sense to me to go about this in a sensible manner. Also, I see guys that throw money around as creating a problem in the form of insincere girls showing up. This is something I wish to avoid as it is an unhappy path to nowhere eventually. So, regardless of how much money I have I do not wish to attract the attention of the wrong type of woman.

Of course it is the woman but potentially they might be found in airport cities like St. Petersburg as much as Siberia. So why not aim for the more convenient, my recent experience has taught me that there is a lot of logic and common sense going to what tends to play best for me, in this case English speakers in English Speaking areas. If a girl did pop up from say Siberia that spoke no/little English but real obvious unquestionable chemistry then sure I would go for her, but unless that happened my default would be English speaking airport cities I think.

I mean practical wise how is one supposed to tell a taxi driver where to go in Siberia where few if any speak English. It would be a hard task you would probably have to print out something in Russian or at least a map and hope for the best. If you were dropped of  in the middle of nowhere, in the wrong location with only limited supply of food, drink, money, even in a dodgy area, it would be a real bad experience to have to deal with. That's where I'm coming from on this one.

[Trenchcoat]

I have no plans to visit Russia, and I have almost no knowledge of Russia, unlike Ukraine and Belarus. But even if I did want to visit Russia in search of my 2nd half, I would have pretty grave doubts about embarking on that journey because of the apparent success of the negativity towards US Men seen in Russian culture, at least from what I can glean from various sources.

I'm sure that many of the guys who are searching right now realize that it's not easy to get attention from a RW these days. I know how to talk to them how to grab and most importantly keep their attention, but even for me  it takes longer to line up a few good prospects. I used to be able to do this in 2-3 months easily, now it takes 4-5 months for an average client.
Also I noticed that sites like fdating have a very limited selection compared to even a couple of years ago. I have used it a few months ago and found that all the women with very attractive photos who I contacted were fake profiles. Although it didn't take long for me to figure it out, still it was disappointing because I have been able to find good and attractive women on that site just a little while back.

Most RW are looking for a "domestic producer" as they refer to local RM.""


Makes me think Belarus, Kazakhstan or Ukraine are all better choices than Russia at the present moment. What is your take on Russia for an American, Moby? I absolutely defer to you, I consider you one of the smartest and most knowledgeable guys on this board, especially in regards to Russia. Thank you Moby.

You need to get on a plane TMD, experience is money in the bank, some learning can be done here from the more experienced among us and I am grateful for there input. So far you have been on this forum a while and presumably been searching a while yet you've yet to get on a plane. Even my last endeavour was worthwhile, it was disappointing that the girl was not the one, but I learnt a lot from the encounter and how to adjust my search parameters for the future. One of the most important things was to take any picture a girl posts up with a pinch of salt, just 'apply' for any girl that looks half way reasonable in her photos and let skype do the rest. These sort of views are difficult to grasp unless you go out there. It obvious that it will take time & money, just messaging girls can take up loads of time, too much often.

Personally though a trip out to the FSU from where we are is not too expensive, it can be done all in for around £1K flight, hotel, taxis, eating out. Use it as a bit of a holiday and line up a few girls to meet along the way. Otherwise you'll be stuck on the status of Keyboard Romeo. I suspect DK has not been out to the FSU at all either, his suggestion that he went out somewhere real remote well past Rostov-on-Don is bizarre, it would just be too unsafe for a non-speaking Russian to do. I don't believe his been to Moscow either. Main thing is to not be afraid, just go out there for a holiday/meet up and learn a little and enjoy yourself at the same time.

[Boethius]

From his descriptions, I believe DK was in Russia. Why do you assume it would be dangerous?

[Trenchcoat]

From his descriptions, I believe DK was in Russia. Why do you assume it would be dangerous?

It was somewhere like Stavropol direction, I don't think he put up descriptions here unless he PM you. Anyway, it would be miles & miles out in the middle of nowhere, no doubt very desolate. It would be dangerous travelling to an entirely non-speaking area, not knowing where the hell you are or what to do. The Moscow one, I don't think he has ever shown us any photos from when he was in Moscow. Though he could have done at 25 I'm finding it all a bit far fetched.

[2tallbill]

Moby, you have spent many years inside Russia's borders, and are married to a very sweet, loving, wonderful Russian woman. From what you know of current (as in today, circa 8-19-2016) Russian Women's (I am specifically referring to Russian women, not any other country from the FSU) attitudes towards Americans, do you agree with Eduard's assessment from about 2 weeks ago, that a large percentage of Russian Women today 8-19-16 hold US Men (not any other country from the West, ONLY US Men) in pretty low regard these days?

Eduard made a pretty convincing case a couple weeks ago that US men like me are viewed by quite a few Russian women as losers and not very desirable as Husbands. I guess credit the Joseph Goebbels - like propaganda machine being run by the Kremlin for this low regard for American Men by Russian women.

I'm not Moby or Eduard, but I have some experience.

If you are going to visit one girl then it doesn't matter what country she is in. In my
opinion you find the girl and meet the girl wherever she is. If she is from Mars you
get tickets to Mars and learn a few words of Martian.

I never had a problem in Russia with any Anti American sentiment. Maybe there was
a girl or two who refused to date me because I was American but they never said so,
they just never replied to my offer to meet for tea and cake.

You only are only going to marry ONE girl. You don't need to worry about girls
who are Anti American or girls who only like men shorter than 5 foot or girls who only
like men who are taller than 6' 2" because those girls aren't for you. Russian women
are women. There are 147 million Russians over half of them are women. There are
17 million people in Kazakhstan, 9.4 million people in Belarus. I certainly wouldn't
eliminate 70 million Russian women from my search because some of them might
not like Americans or George Thorogood or apple pie or whatever.

If you are a visit one then keep a wide net, write a zillion girls sift it down to the best
one and then go see her, wherever she is. If you are a visit many then pick a place
write a zillion girls and ask them to meet you for tea and see where it goes.
But don't discount millions and millions of Russian women for differences between
Obama and Putin.

Udachi!

Bill

[Patagonie]

Far from it, Pat. It certainly wasn't an attack on you or your wife - we can have a difference in opinion here without stooping to that and I apologise if I wasn't clear; besides, I don't really have a horse in the race. My point was entirely that you won and retained the woman because of who you are, not what PUA techniques you used.

If you learnt some things and incorporated them into daily life, I'm interested to know it. I haven't dismissed entirely that taking elements of it can help a man better himself. Besides, by my reckoning I'm about 20 years younger than you so I have about 17 to catch up and keep a woman for 3 years

Thank you for your answer. I appreciated it.

[Boethius]

It was somewhere like Stavropol direction, I don't think he put up descriptions here unless he PM you. Anyway, it would be miles & miles out in the middle of nowhere, no doubt very desolate. It would be dangerous travelling to an entirely non-speaking area, not knowing where the hell you are or what to do. The Moscow one, I don't think he has ever shown us any photos from when he was in Moscow. Though he could have done at 25 I'm finding it all a bit far fetched.

No, it wasn't Stavropol.  Anywhere with any larger population in Russia is not desolate, and if you do happen to travel to desolate areas, you would find people relatively warm to you as a foreigner.

It's not dangerous to travel to areas with non English speakers, it just makes travel more challenging.  How the person copes is up to their personality.

Younger people are more likely to take these risks, rather than older individuals.

[Patagonie]

Pat-
 Thanks for explaining your position on PUA better.

 I've often dismissed it ,because the limited amount of
  what I've seen of it was total  crap, and I speak easily with men or women anywhere.
Part of that is likely from unintentional training,or just comes naturally,
 I cannot tell you if it's a case of the chicken or the egg.
I've often been active and in front of a lot of people in both
 hobbies and professions. In my early twenties I was in bands
as a hobby, yet it was popular , and so playing /singing to fairly large crowds, sometimes tens of thousands. In profession was also interviewed occasionally  , in front of 30 thousand or greater.
In other walks of life did public speaking regularly to smaller groups
like 100 to 300 ,but still,  if you are required to hold their interest for 5 to 6 hours you learn how to do so, and you get over stage fright rather quickly. 
So, simply chatting up or flirting with a woman pales in comparison, and seems incredibly easy , and fun

I know when training for physical/athletic competition, it's often best to
to make training days more difficult than the expected out put on competition day. It was the easiest day of the week physically ,but toughest mentally. That routine is used successfully by many.

I'd assume that could be applied to this as well?
I almost guarantee if a man who lacked in social abilities ,
 practiced them regularly in difficult situations(larger audience, more scrutiny) that then  talking to a random women at the gift shop would be easier and more relaxed.
 

 
 If more naturally relaxed and confident, he would approach more often, notice opportunities more often, and have more positive interaction more often.

 I'd assume a good PUA advocate (unfortunately i haven't seen any)
would preach this ,and show how to put yourself *out there* sincerely and honestly to learn your own best way of handling it.

You describe yourself as a man who already has high social skills.
Playing in a band, speaking in front of many people shows that you were regulary easy with the crowd and capable to keep their interest during long period of time.
If you can speak easily with men or women anywhere, you did here the first step that any beginner in the game is invited to do.

The problem here is that the most frequently posters are GENERALLY owning many skills in socials letting them closing to the naturals ("pua").
I ask you, fellows, to consider that what you are, is not the standard crowd, and there are many guys who are largely incomfortable in socials and especially with women. They are probably more than 80%, and they surely belong to the guys who never write here.
Please pay attention to that.
I have already discover that many of the usual posters are above the average crownd in financial means but they do consider themselves as being in the middle.



About the chicken and the egg that an other interesting story, i will discuss this later but the field (the practice) and the beliefs change your future, and therefore the man

[Patagonie]

Patagonie, I think for myself, a much better method than PUA techniques, of improving myself for a loving, caring FSU woman is to study some basic math equations.........

So women = problems? 

[msmobyone]

Of course it is the woman but potentially they might be found in airport cities like St. Petersburg as much as Siberia. So why not aim for the more convenient, my recent experience has taught me that there is a lot of logic and common sense going to what tends to play best for me, in this case English speakers in English Speaking areas. If a girl did pop up from say Siberia that spoke no/little English but real obvious unquestionable chemistry then sure I would go for her, but unless that happened my default would be English speaking airport cities I think.

I mean practical wise how is one supposed to tell a taxi driver where to go in Siberia where few if any speak English. It would be a hard task you would probably have to print out something in Russian or at least a map and hope for the best. If you were dropped of  in the middle of nowhere, in the wrong location with only limited supply of food, drink, money, even in a dodgy area, it would be a real bad experience to have to deal with. That's where I'm coming from on this one.

You've really got to get over this 'airport city' nonsense...it is simply ruining your options

Example...you land in Moscow - you'll still encounter taxi drivers (cheaper unofficial ones) that do not speak English at the airport ...If you use an official firm, the driver is still unlikely to speak good English.

There are firms that you can pre-book from / to airports that do.

If you have chosen wisely - your lady will either be there to meet you or have organised the taxi

You have just demonstrated another reason why WMVM trips can fail .... which lady is going to offer help to a guy - as she will know / guess you are on such a trip?

I agree it's a bigger risk to choose a partner with whom you cannot converse, easily - but if you assume Siberian cities have few English speakers ..BIG mistake

Sochi, is not in Siberia - but has English names on the streets, buses, trains and plenty of folk learnt English to be ready for the games, F1 and future football events ..Federation cup /  World cup


More places in the FSU have English menus than before


You may be making the mistake of assuming if you leave the 'big' cities of Ukraine or Moscow/ Piter you are entering 'hicskville'...

Mykolaiv /  Nikolaev is less than half the size of Krasnoyarsk, Siberia and a bit smaller than Greater Sochi ...

[Patagonie]

British lasses - esp. in London get to hear 80 plus languages on the Tube everyday .. !!

Many FSU women still firmly believe western men are more 'family orientated, fair-minded and loyal' ....

Trench..

Boe has offered you great ripostes to some of your bizarre criteria re selecting women ...I particularly HATED the near to western routes airports...

My first wife lived in a city of 1 million people in Siberia and loads of blokes expected her to fly 5 hours to meet them in Moscow on their 'WMVM sex trips' and wondered why she declined ......

You've heard it once - here it is AGAIN ..

Choose the lady - not her location ...

Many guys think as you and you all end up in Ukraine - 'coz it's 'convenient' ....

Getting a Russian Visa is a cinch - but if it is 'convenient' you want - why not Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia?

The latter two have eth Russians [ those that are 'non citizens'  ] that can travel to Britain - but you'd still need to pay for a spousal visa if they choose you and the UK;)

Lithuanian lasses will have EU passports... which - for now - is no  'issue' for travel or settlement...

Then there's Belarus or the 'Stans...

To bring a an non EU wife to the UK and to get her residency is going to cost you nearly 6k GBP and she must pass an English test beforehand ...


As for kids ..... Jeez man ... if the woman is special enough - bite on it and bring up her kid as if it was your own.

Unfortunately, i advise to do the exact opposite.
Choose a location and after select the lady who is the best match for you.
If you choose a big city enough to have lets say hundreds or thousands or possible contacts in the same location, how is it possible that you cannot find your future wife among them?
Why do you need all the FSU to find your mate?
 Are you so special that you need a total of 200 millions of people to find your wife?
So if you want to simplify your dating, and raise your chances of success, spending less money and less time in insane conveyances, the best is to choose some big cities that are well connected to the air traffic, or not too far from such hub.
You will lower your headache later during the fiancee time when it's about to get the visa and make all the documents for the marriage.
I met a french guy who needed to pay her a 5000km ticket round trip just JUST to go to Moscow to retrieve the visa, before coming to France.
Newbies before rushing on any beautiful boobs or asses on internet marriage sites try to think a little with your head.
Contact the ladies in advance and try to understand the real motivation and commons values is important, true.
But you cannot, even with skype, speak about chemistry, even if you get horny and you lift the computer every time you talk to her.
That's YOUR chemistry, but in the real life, after one hour of meeting, she will maybe prefer to come back at home and switch off her mobile to not answer to you for the rest of your trip.
The problem of the boobs/ass hypnosis, even after time spent communicating on internet, is that after one or two trip failures the guy is totally discouraged of international dating and forget it for over.
It's not for everyone and enough difficult, so don't bring too much obstacles on your journey.

In the beggining i was exchanging with a girl in central Russia. When i started to be serious about her, i opened google map and start to plan a trip. After two connecting flights i had to take the train for 17 hours, that was in insane trip but not the most insane trip as you can find more remote girls in Russia.
 Finally it was a pure scam. When i proposed her to come and asked her phone number she disappeared!
 Finally it was an happy ending. I though at the end that she could have let me go to rent me at an expansive price an appartment or scam me in every manner.
I met such prodater later in Ukraine, so i know how it works, for real. Fortunaley i rebounded after 4 days just the time needed to reorganize my agenda and contact the agencies.
 When i think retrospectively that i could have gone in Central Russia for a ghost that was a shock and i therefore carefully planed all my trips to cancel the boobs effect or chemistry illusion.

[msmobyone]

Unfortunately, i advise to do the exact opposite.

Well, YOU might like lining up multiple lasses in one city - thus curtailing the options re the whole of the FSU... )

Choose a location and after select the lady who is the best match for you.

Plain daft 'advice'  ..

Set the parameters for who you seek and leave out the nation / city 

If you choose a big city enough to have lets say hundreds or thousands or possible contacts in the same location, how is it possible that you cannot find your future wife among them?

Why do you need all the FSU to find your mate?

You may but you just excluded ALL the great women in other places ?

Are you so special that you need a total of 200 millions of people to find your wife?

NOTHING to do with my creds .... EVERYTHING to do with seeking MY specific choices - why cut them down- before you start?  - MADNESS

You will lower your headache later during the fiancee time when it's about to get the visa and make all the documents for the marriage.

Au contraire

You will have a bigger headache on a WMVM trip deciding who to eliminate / meet again and chances are you'll never meet the best ones as they will have excluded you as a 'player'...

I met a french guy who needed to pay her a 5000km ticket round trip just JUST to go to Moscow to retrieve the visa, before coming to France.

Only 5000km So ? Guys in the US/ Canada / Aus/ NZ  have to pay considerably more to visit / or when their wives visit home .. You are coming across as a cheap-skate

Newbies before rushing on any beautiful boobs or asses on internet marriage sites try to think a little with your head.

EXACTLY ..doing a WMVM trip IS thinking with the little brain

Contact the ladies in advance and try to understand the real motivation and commons values is important, true.
But you cannot, even with skype, speak about chemistry, even if you get horny and you lift the computer every time you talk to her.
That's YOUR chemistry, but in the real life, after one hour of meeting, she will maybe prefer to come back at home and switch off her mobile to not answer to you for the rest of your trip.

Then you didn't do your due diligence..  I am constantly amazed by guys who DO get on the plane and don't really know who they are meeting.

If you are a healthy male - with social skills and are genuine about why you've come - you'll be fine ... Turn up with a list ... chances are your first choice won't work out - because she was on a 'list',

The problem of the boobs/ass hypnosis, even after time spent communicating on internet, is that after one or two trip failures the guy is totally discouraged of international dating and forget it for over.
It's not for everyone and enough difficult, so don't bring too much obstacles on your journey.

Correct - after one WMVM I wised up

 

Especially, if you are in Europe - WMVM = STUPID

[Patagonie]

Well, YOU might like lining up multiple lasses in one city - thus curtailing the options re the whole of the FSU... )

I see that you are overreacting, there was no personal attack in what i wrote

Plain daft 'advice'  ..

Set the parameters for who you seek and leave out the nation / city 

You may but you just excluded ALL the great women in other places ?

As you don't know them, as you don't if they are great, common or not interesting that makes no sense. You cannot chase all the great women all over the FSU.

NOTHING to do with my creds .... EVERYTHING to do with seeking MY specific choices - why cut them down- before you start?  - MADNESS

Your personal and specific choices can be respected in the area targeted among all the women present there.


Each trip done unitarily in VM was more costly than a VO , because of interprets and cost agencies (when agencies were involved). But at the end i met probably more women than in 40 VO.

Au contraire

You will have a bigger headache on a WMVM trip deciding who to eliminate / meet again and chances are you'll never meet the best ones as they will have excluded you as a 'player'...

False : men have a bigger headache to choose between Moscow, Nikolaev, Sotchi, Kiev, Barnaul. They don't know FSU, a lot are not experimented and they can easily misinterpret the signs sent by a woman. As a result many finish their trip watching the TV at the hotel. There is a lot of engagement to do such big travel, especially for US guys. But the most devastating is the emotionnal and sentimental investment, that why VO are so difficult to deal after a failure.
Meet many women during a trip is perfectly acceptable for them. If you come with serious reasons and are introduced by a pro (agency, interpret, coach) you will find plenty of very nice women interested to meet you. A lot are absolutely ready to meet you because you are real and you are in their city. They have no certitude about the guy who spends several hours with them on skype and if he will come or not. Many have been deceited. They would not refuse a meeting if the go between told them that the guy is decent and serious. 

Only 5000km So ? Guys in the US/ Canada / Aus/ NZ  have to pay considerably more to visit / or when their wives visit home

YOu didn't read carefully what i wrote. I was explaining that was only for retrieving the visa before her first trip visiting her future husband he needed to buy a round trip fare of 5000km. I found that they married very quickly with little time spent together before taking such important decision. We see here that finally, because of the costs involved, he speeded up the decision, and took a bigger risk.
We see here that her location had some ripple effects.

EXACTLY ..doing a WMVM trip IS thinking with the little brain

Then you didn't do your due diligence..  I am constantly amazed by guys who DO get on the plane and don't really know who they are meeting.

I have exactly the same opinion, it's why they should land on a precise location to raise their chances. Because they spend a lot of time in correspondance and finally don't know who they are meeting. They are over invested emotionaly and financially for a random result.

Correct - after one WMVM I wised up

 

Especially, if you are in Europe - WMVM = STUPID

YOu have never met Jack Bragg, he was a professional coach here. YOu could find many of his posts here. We miss him.
To summarise. He said that between 60 and 80% of the VO never work at the end. He advised his clients to start correspondance ONLY few weeks before the trip. He was an honest man very found of Ukraine and protecting his customers. He was good hearted.
The WMVM was how he worked and we know here that a man nammed Mark Edward Davis is also using such type of meeting for his clients, with good success. So if those professionals work in such manner, it seems to be that they don't share your opinion.

[Trenchcoat]

Unfortunately, i advise to do the exact opposite.
Choose a location and after select the lady who is the best match for you.
If you choose a big city enough to have lets say hundreds or thousands or possible contacts in the same location, how is it possible that you cannot find your future wife among them?
Why do you need all the FSU to find your mate?
 Are you so special that you need a total of 200 millions of people to find your wife?
So if you want to simplify your dating, and raise your chances of success, spending less money and less time in insane conveyances, the best is to choose some big cities that are well connected to the air traffic, or not too far from such hub.
You will lower your headache later during the fiancee time when it's about to get the visa and make all the documents for the marriage.
I met a french guy who needed to pay her a 5000km ticket round trip just JUST to go to Moscow to retrieve the visa, before coming to France.
Newbies before rushing on any beautiful boobs or asses on internet marriage sites try to think a little with your head.
Contact the ladies in advance and try to understand the real motivation and commons values is important, true.
But you cannot, even with skype, speak about chemistry, even if you get horny and you lift the computer every time you talk to her.
That's YOUR chemistry, but in the real life, after one hour of meeting, she will maybe prefer to come back at home and switch off her mobile to not answer to you for the rest of your trip.
The problem of the boobs/ass hypnosis, even after time spent communicating on internet, is that after one or two trip failures the guy is totally discouraged of international dating and forget it for over.
It's not for everyone and enough difficult, so don't bring too much obstacles on your journey.

In the beggining i was exchanging with a girl in central Russia. When i started to be serious about her, i opened google map and start to plan a trip. After two connecting flights i had to take the train for 17 hours, that was in insane trip but not the most insane trip as you can find more remote girls in Russia.
 Finally it was a pure scam. When i proposed her to come and asked her phone number she disappeared!
 Finally it was an happy ending. I though at the end that she could have let me go to rent me at an expansive price an appartment or scam me in every manner.
I met such prodater later in Ukraine, so i know how it works, for real. Fortunaley i rebounded after 4 days just the time needed to reorganize my agenda and contact the agencies.
 When i think retrospectively that i could have gone in Central Russia for a ghost that was a shock and i therefore carefully planed all my trips to cancel the boobs effect or chemistry illusion.

This is all important advice I feel so worth highlighting all in bold, particularly for newbies and those in the beginning stages like myself. Its pretty much exactly how I feel after what I learnt from my second trip. There would be plenty of women from my observation in a city as large as Odessa, just in the city centre itself, never mind the rest to concentrate on just one city. As Patagonie rightly says, you should be able to find a handful of girls easily meeting your criteria, its just a case of searching for them. I think its a big red herring to newbies to suggest a vast approach as Patagonie points out you can easily end up in the middle of nowhere at great time, bother and expense - yes its come up trumps for some whether by luck or meticulous methodology, but to suggest that its a common sense way to go is insane. Some newbies could take that advice and quickly get out of their depth, I grateful Nikolaev was only moderately on the fringe, other places I am sure would be a big risk to foreigners. I'm not the traveller type that likes being away from it all and trying to find ones way back to civilisation, its not what I need, I am trying to find a girl, not go on an expedition to the wilderness.

Moby, I am sure for the odd few like yourself, a girl can pop up anywhere in FSU and there was chemistry, assumingly, so it worked out for you, but for the majority of us this random occurrence will not happen, who knows for me it might, but I would still advocate a one airport city approach as this for the majority would be the most sensible way forward. I dare say a degree of serendipity can come into searches, but for me I think a practical, methodical and common sense approach works better. I notice both you and Patagonie have had greater than 10 trips and both of you have a partner so you've both got the experience there but is interesting that you draw different cards on this issue.

TMD, while I'm righting this I guess I would say that while out in the Ukraine I think there may have been a degree of antipathy for English people over the UK referendum - no one said anything directly, but I goot the feeling that there attitude was not favourable to UK lot as of course the Leave vote means they won't/unlikely to have access to the UK if they ever joined the EU, so removing any hope they may have had of a better life for many of them. I'm guessing a fair few may have learnt English banking on this since you can earn way more in UK than Ukraine. The other thing was that I think there may be a lot of apprehension around now about a possible war with Russia, Russia's actions in the Crimea of recent do not bode well, and there has long since been a Russian troop build up in the east. I'm thinking though if an invasion of the Ukraine came, it would come in the north with Ukraine's long border it has to protect and the crimea and east are just diversionary tactics. Still, it makes travel to Ukraine and increasingly risky activity to undertake I believe now.

[Patagonie]

This is all important advice I feel so worth highlighting all in bold, particularly for newbies and those in the beginning stages like myself. Its pretty much exactly how I feel after what I learnt from my second trip. There would be plenty of women from my observation in a city as large as Odessa, just in the city centre itself, never mind the rest to concentrate on just one city. As Patagonie rightly says, you should be able to find a handful of girls easily meeting your criteria, its just a case of searching for them. I think its a big red herring to newbies to suggest a vast approach as Patagonie points out you can easily end up in the middle of nowhere at great time, bother and expense - yes its come up trumps for some whether by luck or meticulous methodology, but to suggest that its a common sense way to go is insane. Some newbies could take that advice and quickly get out of their depth, I grateful Nikolaev was only moderately on the fringe, other places I am sure would be a big risk to foreigners. I'm not the traveller type that likes being away from it all and trying to find ones way back to civilisation, its not what I need, I am trying to find a girl, not go on an expedition to the wilderness.

Moby, I am sure for the odd few like yourself, a girl can pop up anywhere in FSU and there was chemistry, assumingly, so it worked out for you, but for the majority of us this random occurrence will not happen, who knows for me it might, but I would still advocate a one airport city approach as this for the majority would be the most sensible way forward. I dare say a degree of serendipity can come into searches, but for me I think a practical, methodical and common sense approach works better. I notice both you and Patagonie have had greater than 10 trips and both of you have a partner so you've both got the experience there but is interesting that you draw different cards on this issue.

TMD, while I'm righting this I guess I would say that while out in the Ukraine I think there may have been a degree of antipathy for English people over the UK referendum - no one said anything directly, but I goot the feeling that there attitude was not favourable to UK lot as of course the Leave vote means they won't/unlikely to have access to the UK if they ever joined the EU, so removing any hope they may have had of a better life for many of them. I'm guessing a fair few may have learnt English banking on this since you can earn way more in UK than Ukraine. The other thing was that I think there may be a lot of apprehension around now about a possible war with Russia, Russia's actions in the Crimea of recent do not bode well, and there has long since been a Russian troop build up in the east. I'm thinking though if an invasion of the Ukraine came, it would come in the north with Ukraine's long border it has to protect and the crimea and east are just diversionary tactics. Still, it makes travel to Ukraine and increasingly risky activity to undertake I believe now.

Thank you TC.

It comes that we inherit from our culture and do the things that we are used to do.
When you will be married to a FSU woman things will shatter and you will see that there are different ways to do the same thing. And if you are not too much proud and obsessed of yourself you will accept that her culture is as much worth than your. YOu will discover that things which are the best for you are nothing better than in FSU, but they were just better for you because you were used to do always in the same way. That an interesting shock and it opens your world a lot. It's also why cross cultural relationship are so nurturing. Because you benefit from two cultures.

So the same with the dating. We usually contact girls on dating sites and normally the majority of the guys date them one by one, even if they have several contacts in their book.
In FSU, you have a bonus to take avantage of, especially considering the price of the trip and the short time you have for this endeavor (especially for US guys), it's to go and to meet many if you are well organized and know how to do this.
A lot of men, however, don't feel comfortable or really comfortable with this practice (except players of course), because they are not used to do such thing.
Many feelings are invading their brains like guilt, desire to be honest and so on. That's because they are not used to handle several women at the same time even if no sex is involved.
The key is mainly all around  FEELINGS and emotionnal investment that the man has done. Higher is his emotional investment and more he's uncomfortable to meet many.
There are nothing wrong to meet several ladies, spend one, two or three hours with them around a lunch or a cup of tea and explore each other to see if they are some real sparks. We know that there are two types of guys coming in FSU : the marriage minded ones and the sluts bangers. I would say that there is a third category : expats, representatives who finish to fall over the heels for a FSU lady.  that happens also. But if you don't belong to the first type, it means that are already serious. You are implicitely electing yourself as potential mates as soon as she is convinced that you are not a sexual tourist (and not a weirdo etc...)

Think about this,
How were used to do things in dating?
Your culture guy!

A lot of men, provided that they don't spend too much time with a woman will stay enough easy to meet many.

But i am also a pure advocate of the go unique, as soon as you find a keeper, you have to invest on this girl and only her. The big problem is more when i shall go unique? The answer is not easy.

[Jumper]

No, it wasn't Stavropol.  Anywhere with any larger population in Russia is not desolate, and if you do happen to travel to desolate areas, you would find people relatively warm to you as a foreigner.

It's not dangerous to travel to areas with non English speakers, it just makes travel more challenging.  How the person copes is up to their personality.

Younger people are more likely to take these risks, rather than older individuals.

I'd take that a step further and say remote villages seem the most friendly.

[msmobyone]

]I see that you are overreacting, there was no personal attack in what i wrote

No offence was perceived...don't worry ! This is lively debate on a subject I feel passionate about.

As you don't know them, as you don't if they are great, common or not interesting that makes no sense. You cannot chase all the great women all over the FSU.

You cannot really know someone - until you've lived with them - especially when one / both of you are suffering some sort of crisis.

However, since the days of SKYPE, or similar - my experience has been that the one I choice to meet was just as I expected..

Your personal and specific choices can be respected in the area targeted among all the women present there.
[/b]

Incidentally, if I put in all my criteria on most sites I was getting less than 10 'hits' in the whole FSU...

Each trip done unitarily in VM was more costly than a VO , because of interprets and cost agencies (when agencies were involved). But at the end i met probably more women than in 40 VO.

My point about being a 'cheap-skate' referred to your [silly ] suggestion that a 5000km round trip for a visa should exclude a Russia woman on a cost basis' ... It would have excluded my former wife and one to be..   MADNESS...

men have a bigger headache to choose between Moscow, Nikolaev, Sotchi, Kiev, Barnaul.

Exactly my point, they are using a scatter gun approach ..deciding a bride by her city ?  !!  Now, I realise specifically setting out to find a FSU wife is bizarre and illogical, already - and most 'sane' people would wonder at our 'dispute'..

They don't know FSU, a lot are not experimented and they can easily misinterpret the signs sent by a woman. As a result many finish their trip watching the TV at the hotel.

I 'see' ...[not] so going on a WMVM 'reduces' that risk' ? !  Sure, you may have a few more dates lined up and Beel reminds us that his wonderful wife was a backup... not even planned - but I reckon European men have no excuse not to go WMVO.

If they end up watching tv at their hotel - then they need to evaluate what they did wrong ...

There is a lot of engagement to do such big travel, especially for US guys. But the most devastating is the emotionnal and sentimental investment, that why VO are so difficult to deal after a failure.

I have done WM - head busting with two ladies wishing to spend their time with me - deadlines - risk of one turning up early.. or at the apartment - if I'm with another ...no thanks.... not for me ...

I have done a VO - before the days of SKYE and before I could passably converse in Russian face to face. It was a total failure - in that there was no 'spark' - the lady misread me ...but I got to see another Soviet Hero city ..We still communicate 12 years on - she never bothered to learn English and her parents were ill all that time and I realised she'd never leave ... I learnt a lot and resolved to learn Russian.

My advice is different from ML - I ENJOY being able to speak to SC's friends... She is not fluent in English but is getting there.

Meet many women during a trip is perfectly acceptable for them. If you come with serious reasons and are introduced by a pro (agency, interpret, coach) you will find plenty of very nice women interested to meet you. A lot are absolutely ready to meet you because you are real and you are in their city. They have no certitude about the guy who spends several hours with them on skype and if he will come or not. Many have been deceited. They would not refuse a meeting if the go between told them that the guy is decent and serious. 

Cannot agree - based on personal experience ...Beel will be bored hearing this...

1/ Kyiv 2004 - went on a VM - never used an agency or interpreter - sought English speakers - but both ladies I narrowed it down to made it clear that if I'd been on a VM I'd not have been meeting them ..

I maintain contact with both of them.. One wanted me to move Kyiv as her career was taking off - t'other didn't seem as keen - but I found out she came round unannounced to surprise me and knew I had company ....

2/ Krasnoyarsk - my Russian ex... She made it clear that she had had offers from guys who were in Moscow for 10 days - but agreed to see her for 2 ... She waited for a guy who was clearly making the effort to concentrate on her...

YOu didn't read carefully what i wrote. I was explaining that was only for retrieving the visa before her first trip visiting her future husband he needed to buy a round trip fare of 5000km. I found that they married very quickly with little time spent together before taking such important decision. We see here that finally, because of the costs involved, he speeded up the decision, and took a bigger risk.
We see here that her location had some ripple effects.
[/b]

Au contraire - you are adding info  - what I read and the comment stands ... Now you are saying your French guy rushed things because of distance ... I'm still saying that her location should not decide your choice.... 

]I have exactly the same opinion, it's why they should land on a precise location to raise their chances. Because they spend a lot of time in correspondance and finally don't know who they are meeting. They are over invested emotionaly and financially for a random result.

I would have agreed -  prior to Skype..Except in few cases - not already knowing plenty - just isn't an excuse.

Sure, she might smell / not meet some expectations re aresa only face to face can decide - but unlikely

YOu have never met Jack Bragg, he was a professional coach here. YOu could find many of his posts here. We miss him.
To summarise. He said that between 60 and 80% of the VO never work at the end. He advised his clients to start correspondance ONLY few weeks before the trip. He was an honest man very found of Ukraine and protecting his customers. He was good hearted.
The WMVM was how he worked and we know here that a man nammed Mark Edward Davis is also using such type of meeting for his clients, with good success. So if those professionals work in such manner, it seems to be that they don't share your opinion.

)))  Jack and I had legendary disagreements - about his M.O and photos of ladies in the street ! For all those 'spats' we had lots of non board contact and we had agreed to meet when he fell ill...  I have been around here  -on and off - a LONG time


I often disagreed with Eduard...Ed - not your guy.

I feel WM is an option for those whose hands are being held or have limited options to travel a long way ...Me? I preferred to learn by the school of knocks ..

As Beel points out - a trip to Kyiv is easily doable over a weekend.  I lived in the eastern Med... it was a 3 hour flight ...Odessa was 2 and SE Russia 2.5..


I really do respect you differing opinion - but we are in Europe and VO is a sounder option IMHO

 

[ML]

Hey, Pat is exactly right.

Pick a medium to large city and then start screening the available gals there.

Even in a city as small as say 200,000 it is possible to come up with a final list of 10 to 15 gals to meet.

Plus, most gals will travel in from even smaller surrounding cities nearby to spend time with you . . . you paying their travel expenses.

With WMVM there are no dismal outcomes as there most often are with WOVO visits.

Sure, you might not find the one . . . but you certainly won't have a nightmare experience with the ONE.

But, of course, WMVM is not for the weak minded who can't even keep names straight let alone plan and execute such an undertaking.

[msmobyone]

Hey, Pat is exactly right.

'Right'.. 'sure' .. if you need an ego boost  - as opposed to seeking a life partner

Pick a medium to large city and then start screening the available gals there.

Even in a city as small as say 200,000 it is possible to come up with a final list of 10 to 15 gals to meet.

Plus, most gals will travel in from even smaller surrounding cities nearby to spend time with you . . . you paying their travel expenses.

Once again ...choosing a partner by picking one city - like a fisherman trawling one part of the ocean - refusing to look elsewhere - somewhat bizarre and limiting

With WMVM there are no dismal outcomes as there most often are with WOVO visits.

 

You are kidding yourself..unless meeting lots of women who need a jump is one's real aim...
Listen to this 'advice' at your peril ....

Sure, you might not find the one . . . but you certainly won't have a nightmare experience with the ONE.

But, of course, WMVM is not for the weak minded who can't even keep names straight let alone plan and execute such an undertaking.

 

If you are 'in' to the logistics of 'organising' such trips - be prepared for you 'plan' going to hell the moment you 'overrun' or a lady or two turn up early or 'surprise' you ...

The nightmare scenario is you'll probably settle for second best as the optimal choice will mark you as a 'player'and leave you to your folly ..

[northkape]

Pat and ML are absolutely right,,,,
Choose a reasonably sized location and search within this area.
Pat avoided the logistic riddle of meeting many by the help of an agency.
ML organized it more like what I did, tell all of your prospects that you will be visiting her city, and ask for a short meeting.

Moby is also choosing a location,,, but an unreasonably sized one, namely all of the FSU.
That is just plain illogical, as you can't possibly meet all filtered prospects within such a large area.
And then on top of it, meeting only one at a time, could easily waste years and years of your life and bank account.
As some men here have done through the years.....

Done correctly,,,,,
with the use all possible dating sites, searching continually for your filtered profile in a city like Kiev with surroundings,,,,
should easily give you more new prospects than you would be able to meet with, unless you were living there permanently.
For me, in the year I was searching, I always had a lot more highly qualified meetings lined up, than I ever was able to follow through.
When looking back at it,,, I still feel sorry for not being able to meet some of my "dreams" at that time....

Ten minutes to a couple of hours face to face, tells me more about a woman, than months of writing and Skyping.
If you want results, you should focus on meeting as many prequalified prospects as you are able to.
Prequalified means that she has most of the features you are looking for (your filter), and that she is pleasant and interesting to talk with in writing / phone / Skype.

[Patagonie]

ML, North and I have met ten or twelve or fifteen women per trip.
We are the life proof that women have no problem to meet guys coming for a short meeting.
Personnaly i never found a girl refusing a meeting due to the fact that i was potentialy meeting several.

YOu will meet some girls also who are never in the VO book. The girls who are not spending on internet, skype and so on, and barely refuse to do it, BUT if you are interesting enough and already in their city, they would be ok to meet you.

Newbies the world is divided by two : the women who are ready to write for months and the women who want to narrow this to zero and are only interested in real men (men sitting in a plane). As you know 90% of men who are surfing on internet never land in their city.


As you can meet each trip ten times (at least) more girls than in a VO you have ten times more chances to meet the quality woman that you are searching for. You can go through agencies, or by yourself as North did. I also did this during my first trip, using only dating sites,  and  few days before the take off i was holding seven phone numbers for my 6 days trip in Kiev. I often mixed both dating sites and agencies, but if the agency was good enough i could rely only entirely on her.

Choosing a big city or few big cities make things easier because you start to know your surroundings and that makes logistics easier. Restaurants, transportation, places to go, prices, schedules for train, connecting flights...
YOu can plan  all in advance. I used some service to have russian lessons during my free time for example and walked a lot, trying to visit museums and so on as possible. In fact i probably know Ukraine better than my wife, i mean here that i have travelled more in Ukraine than my wife did.
 
Sharing time with different ladies is overboosting your social skills.
As North said you will know more about her than six months of bla bla. And internet bla bla will never tell you if she is a psycho or alcoohol addicted (both happened to me).
 When i was not interested in the lady i tried to open my world by knowing in what she was interested and let her talking. They appreciated it and i learnt a lot.  So the meeting stayed interesting for both and was more respectful for her.

[Patagonie]

Msb,

There are no such thing existing that you will be rewarded by the best quality woman if you talk to only one lady, wait till the end, and write and date her and only her, proceeding one by one. 

This reward is the fruit of a myth coming from your family education, society beliefs and media advertising, and social morale.

But in the real life that's not happening, it's irrelevant.

You believe it because some women told you that they would have not accepted to meet you if you have come for several?

Keep it logical: do you really believe that a woman can tell you : "you know i understand men who meet several women, that's fair, it allows them to have more chances and they can compare who is the best woman for them". It's no gonna to happen of course, because they don't get benefit of this. 
Are women dating man one by one, totally IGNORING all other men TOTALLY  like nuns? Come on guy! you will find very few ladies proceeding like this, and if you meet such girl you think she is a little weirdo.

The interest of a quality woman met don't depend of the first motivation of the man but more of his worthiness (include here of course his attrativeness in first place).

[treadmilldude]

Northkape, great post and really I agree with basically everything you said. Patagonie, likewise your post is absolutely outstanding and I pretty much agree with everything you said.

I want to say right off the bat that anyone who says that WOVO is not likely to work or cannot work is wrong. Moby is living proof of that - SC is a very beautiful, lovely woman and obviously very sweet, kind and loving as well. SC is a "Good Girl", the type of girl every man wants to marry and the type of woman I hope to meet and marry in the FSU. (Does SC have any Sisters that are even 10% as attractive as her? HAHAHA!!  ) Moby struck gold when he met and won the heart of SC, and I am sure he considers himself an extremely blessed man.

But I do not agree with Moby that his method (WOVO and not choosing a s-i-n-g-l-e city to search in, but rather using the entire, vast FSU to look in) is the best method. However, I also do not think that, at least for myself, a W"Many"Visit"Many" trip is something I can necessarily handle, or handle well. For me, what I am in the process of doing right now is not really a W"Many"Visit"Many", but a W"Several"V"Several" trip traveling to a large city. Specifically, "several" is (4) girls I met on VK, whom I have chosen to communicate with for a short period of time and then will travel to meet them in person. I just do not think I can successfully coordinate meetings with 10-15 different women, as ML, Pat and Northkape were all able to pull off very well. The most women I have ever dated in my life at the same time were 3 and it was very stressful for me, I was always worrying about the other 2 girls when I was out with one of the girls. I did not want to hurt anyone's feelings nor come across as a player, because I am absolutely not a player. I am a very sweet, tenderhearted, kind young man.

What was I saying? Oh yeah, sort of rambling on there. I cannot handle a WMVM (their version is 10-15 girls) and I am not going down that route. But a WSeveralVisitSeveral WSVS (in my case there are 4 really wonderful, fantastic girls from VK) is a much better plan for me than a WOVO.

I do not recommend any member to hop around from country to country as Moby is basically suggesting to do. That sounds like a nightmare, incredibly stressful to me and is such a waste of time. Pick a large city (Minsk - 2.1 million / Kharkiv - 1.4 million), then only focus on women from that city. If you cannot find a keeper in Minsk or Kharkiv, for example, out of approximately 1.1 million women and 700K women, respectively, then something is wrong with you.

Northkape, how is everything going with your lovely Wife? I hope everything is going great for you two.

[msmobyone]

Pat and ML are absolutely right,,,,

Nope - you're just as daft as they are ) Especially, if you are in Europe.

Choose a reasonably sized location and search within this area.
Pat avoided the logistic riddle of meeting many by the help of an agency.
ML organized it more like what I did, tell all of your prospects that you will be visiting her city, and ask for a short meeting.

Moby is also choosing a location,,, but an unreasonably sized one, namely all of the FSU.

To repeat - I think limiting finding a partner by city is MADNESS and totally back to front logic )

 

That is just plain illogical, as you can't possibly meet all filtered prospects within such a large area.
And then on top of it, meeting only one at a time, could easily waste years and years of your life and bank account.
As some men here have done through the years.....

 

This contributor begs to differ and in his experiences VM is the waste of time and money.  Most FSU women I speak to will label a guy on VM as a possible player and you just don't get the most out of a trip

Done correctly,,,,,
with the use all possible dating sites, searching continually for your filtered profile in a city like Kiev with surroundings,,,,
should easily give you more new prospects than you would be able to meet with, unless you were living there permanently.
For me, in the year I was searching, I always had a lot more highly qualified meetings lined up, than I ever was able to follow through.
When looking back at it,,, I still feel sorry for not being able to meet some of my "dreams" at that time....

Above is how NOT to do it ... of course ...

As you even admit - you overlooked some 'dreams' ...

Ten minutes to a couple of hours face to face, tells me more about a woman, than months of writing and Skyping.

'bollox' !!

This presupposes the VO guy is not prepared to do his 'due diligence' and filter down to the one that is worth getting on a plane for and hasn't got a Visa - if necessary - sorted. He who hesitates is lost

If you want results, you should focus on meeting as many prequalified prospects as you are able to.
Prequalified means that she has most of the features you are looking for (your filter), and that she is pleasant and interesting to talk with in writing / phone / Skype.

You will get FAR better results if you grant each other plenty of one on one time and don't have a string of other dates lined up ..

[msmobyone]

Moby, I am sure for the odd few like yourself, a girl can pop up anywhere in FSU and there was chemistry, assumingly, so it worked out for you, but for the majority of us this random occurrence will not happen

I'm probably very odd .... but believe me - there was nothing 'random' about my latter Skype backed search ...


As for multiple trips - you assume this was all 'wife hunting' ?

I have been going 12 years for biz reasons....  hence 20+ Back in 2006/7 I was regularly in Kyiv as Russians and EU citizens didn't need visas to meet up

I'm thinking though if an invasion of the Ukraine came,

It already happened - it's just the Kremlin won't admit it - hence sanctions ..according to them Ukraine 'isn't a country, really' 

it would come in the north with Ukraine's long border it has to protect and the crimea and east are just diversionary tactics. Still, it makes travel to Ukraine and increasingly risky activity to undertake I believe now.

Trench..

1/ Approx half of UA's northern border is with Belarus

2/ I expect any further encroachment would be preceded with 'disorder' in Kharkiv with 'humanitarian help' from Moscow ... A total invasion would result in war with more than UA

Expect a frozen conflict status to continue ...The Kremlin might be looking for an excuse .. 'terrorism' but folks are wiser to Maskirovka - 'deception' tactics, now and the deeper into UA any incursion might go, would be met with increasing lack of support from the locals