War of the Roses (Russians)?

[Journeyman]

This is likely to be a sensitive topic.  Here goes.

During the last 4 or 5 years, I have taken note of how a clear majority of the Russian women I have met speak about marriage.  That is, the nature of the interaction between the husband and wife.  I am referring to how they seem to articulate their experiences, observations, concerns, or expectations regarding being involved in a marriage.  In each case, they have seemed to be drawing on experiences, observations, and anecdotes regarding purely Russian marriages (RM+RW).  Here comes my thesis.

What has disturbed me so very much is that, again, a clear majority of these women seem to characterize marriage as being a kind of war, with daily battles, big and small.  Granted, marriage is a lot of work, a LOT of work, every day, for years and years, and forever.  And every marriage will have some bumps in the road here or there.  However, with my "sample size" involving about 50 substantial conversations that touch on this topic in some detail, I feel that my "findings" are worth examining.  Fortunately, not all of the women speak this way, but most of them have.:?

Also, regrettably, it has seemed to me that many of the Russian ladies with whom I have spoken about this subject seem to be posturing themselves to go into a marriage with a rather defensive posture (that is, apart from the matter of moving to a new country, etc.).  Moreover, there also seems to be a disinclination toward the notion of spouses discussing problems in a marriage -- in terms of finding mutually agreeable solutions -- and rather, an inclination to simply "battle it out."  

We all know that every marriage, every family, and every culture has slightly different ways of handling conflict resolution.  However, I am somewhat reluctant to be a "relativist" on this matter (in terms of cultural differences accounting for everything here).  It seems to me that there must be some regard for having good relationship skills (and using them), and a sensible or useful attitude toward your spouse and your marriage.  For me, that would encompass the notion that conflict is something to be minimized, or otherwise dealt with peaceably, and in view of what is best for the marriage or family, rather than winning the battle.

But, again, I have gotten the distinct feeling that most of these RW are preparing to do battle.  In fact, the attitude I have observed is so pronounced, that I might even say that some RW are inclined to think that there is something "not normal" about a calm and peaceful marriage -- in terms of it being slightly contemptable.

Has anybody else come across this kind of attitude?  And please don't flame me, suggesting that I am just meeting the wrong ladies.  I have shared this idea previously with other western guys who have been pursuing relationships with Russian ladies.  Their findings are basically similar.

Please understand also that I am hoping that my observations have been wrong.  If so, I would actually be somewhat relieved.
 
Journeyman

[Elen]

And what exactly do you call "war", "fight" and "work" in marriage?

And what does that mean

Moreover, there also seems to be a disinclination toward the notion of spouses discussing problems in a marriage -- in terms of finding mutually agreeable solutions -- and rather, an inclination to simply "battle it out."

Do you imply we get our solutions of problems in marriages with a help of frying pans instead of words?

[Elen]

To my mind while we are  "fighting" with words at our kitchens with our husbands your wives just civil with smile and kind words go to court and leave you without last pants:P:P

[MandM]

I agree with Elen. It is quite shallow to generalize like that. No RW walks down the aisle preparing for a life time battle!. I believe that with some RM they have no other choice! As for marriage being peaceful and boring, when it all falls in to a rut, then a woman of any nationality might get a bit restless, that's why you have to introduce some fireworks into a relationship now and again (which is not necessarily a fight!)

[Turboguy]

If this were a poll, I am reading that as two votes in your favor and non against Journeyman.   Considering the two votes were Russian gals I think the early results definatly are agreeing.   I am not married yet but I have noticed that about my gal, she seems to like to lock horns.

[MandM]

Come to think of it, looks like Elen and I proved that may be RW are argumentative after all by quickly jumping to argue that we are not! 

I might have to admit a defeat on this one as Mark just told me that yes, I am strong headed and do like a good fight! (but I am getting better). I must admit I am quite opinionated (as you all probably realized by my posts) - but at least I can admit my shortcomings!

[Elen]

As for me I'm ALWAYS right:P:P:P Better to admit that without any dispute:D:D:D

[Elen]

Well just some thoughts wich may be have nothing to do with situation we are supposed to discuss here.

I can't estimate how you foreigners see us Russians (just heard many times we all rude, like to fight and to argue and are not such gentle in choosing "phrases"for that. I'm not about me:X:D but about Russians in general)

 But think about this - The majority of Russians live in very "tight" living conditions with two or more generations in the same flat. And we still didn't kill each other:D So if we are such "lovers" for fighting do you recognize what nightmare would be our lifes in families?? But somehow we do manage to exist and to love each others. So may be our "fights" are not such bad and it's only your "tender" minds can't understand that Russian" "tradition".

[Turboguy]

It is funny isn't it.  We have two main topics here.   All the faults Russian gals have and how to marry one.    Doesn't say much for the logic of American men, but it reality I think we see all the good qualities too and they far outweigh the bad.

PS Elen, the word you could not remember is Mass.   That is the service they have.  You do great on your English though.   You are a woman which means a man will never understand you, but we do easily understand what you are saying.

 

[Journeyman]

I think that I have to step back in here now and attempt to clarify something.

By making my initial post, I was NOT saying that Russian women are bad, or poor partners in marriage. NYET!!!

What I was saying was that it seemed that both Russian men and women seem, surprisingly often, to view their future or present marriage as containing a large element of struggle against each other.  It is a kind of pessimism that leads into a defensive posture, which further leads into expecting conflict, and even taking the offensive in order to not lose the expected battle.

Now, let me say this also.  I think that many American marriage also contain this element.  However, I rarely see Americans head into marriage preparing to do battle.  Rather, Americans just seem more optimistic about how a marriage might work, even if, yes, perhaps they are a bit too naive about it.

All marriages have problems from time to time -- American, Russian, all marriages.  And all spouses have various conflicts from time to time.  63% of all American marriages fail, and probably 1/2 of the other 37% are otherwise problematic (at least sometimes).  There is no such thing as a perfect marriage, anywhere.  And both men and women can be culpable.  So, I am NOT attacking Russian women on this point.  PLEASE, understand this.

However, it has seemed to me that Russians are rather pessimistic about marriage, and therefore, adopt a rather defensive posture when considering, entering into, or participating in a marriage.  I consider this to be unfortunate.  But I am NOT assigning blame to Russian women, or men, or whatever.  I am sure that if socio-economic conditions in America were the same as those in the FSU, American marriages would be even more "interesting."  

So, let me re-focus the discussion now.  If this debatable phenomenon is true, is it due more to culture, or due to societal institutions, or to economic issues?  Of course, they always are intertwined.  However, I can see no reason to try to assign blame to people.  It is reasonable to presume that all people want to be happy and live in peace, including when married.  However, over time, for various reasons, some things become more "normal," including conflicts in marriage.

I am now preparing for marriage with a good Russian lady. I am trying to understand her attitudes and expectations, at least those derived from her life in the FSU.  That has caused me to reflect upon my 4,5 years of learning about Russian marriages, which I described in my initial post, above.  

Journeyman

[Elen]

Yes We all are pessimists I don't know what were those reasons but we used to wait for a troubles and be prepared to them ( but if look back at our history then there are no surprises for such position)

The only one thing you could do with us is to calm us down with your american optimism We use to good thing fast as well:D

[ConnerVT]

Journeyman, I think that it truly depends on the woman.  Or more specifically, the parents of those involved.

I have been with AW who truly believed that all domestic relationships were a constant battle.  So I think nationality has little to do with it.

My wife's parents are two people who have little resemblance to the couples you describe.  After many years, they obviously love each other, and work together as a family with little struggle between them.  In the time my wife and I have been together, I can see she is a product of this family.  True, we have our frustrating moments, but there is a great effort between us to make each other happy, and our family together work without the need to battle it out.

It just takes finding the right woman... :cool:

[Journeyman]

Elen,

Yes, on many occasions, I have indeed employed my American optimism to help my devushka's mood.  Eventually, she relents, and I see a smile again on her face.  Sometimes, even more.


ConnerVT,  

Absolutely, it all depends upon the woman, and her family.  Her most personal experiences will tend to dominate over societal or cultural influences.  It seems that your wife comes from an exceptionally good family.  Yes, they are out there.

And as you say, finding the right woman is the key.  I have spent a long time doing so.  My girlfriend also comes from a good family -- stable, respectable, and kind.  While that is no guarantee of anything, odds are that it is a beneficial factor.  

Please keep in mind that I am entirely cognizant of not wanting to paint with too broad of a brush.  My statements refer to what seems prevalent, but not to everybody.  

Good luck to us all.

Journeyman

[KenC]

Jouneyman,

Interesting topic.  I find it very ironic that two RW already started to debate your thesis.  LOL.  You wrote:

It is reasonable to presume that all people want to be happy and live in peace, including when married. However, over time, for various reasons, some things become more "normal," including conflicts in marriage

I know in my case, debating most subjects are the norm for my wife.  The pessimism you speak of seems to diminish over time, but the stubbornness and argumentative nature of RW seem to be endless.  It seems as though they need to debate in order to maintain the image of being strong.  Agreeing with a husband seems to be a sign of weakness in their minds.  After six years of it, it does wear on you.  If there was one thing I could change, this would be it.  The problem I have is magnified by my being a stubborn Russian too!

My spin on this is that Russian families tend to be matriarchal with the woman being the head of the family whereas in America, the man is usually considered the head.  The paradox here is that RW tend to be attracted to strong, decisive and confident men.  Once they find one they cannot adjust to a man that displays such character traits inside the family structure.

My Mother in Law is a strong dominant woman and the head of her household.  My Father in Law is a good man, but accepts his wife's leadership.  There is little doubt about who is in charge there.  Their debates are more for sport than for struggles for leadership.

Coming from a Russian/American family, I can see that both my Grandmothers were the head of their respective households.  My Father's mother divorced her strong Russian husband (my Grandfather) and remarried a much more timid man.  My own parents were always in a constant battle for leadership in my immediate family. Now I find myself in a similar position.

Ken

[BC]

Take Ken's post, mix in M&M's comment about fireworks, add a little of Elen's pessemism/optimism remarks and it just about fits my experience.

[Leslie]

Hi Ken,

I think your post is a very accurate description of typical family organization.

"My spin on this is that Russian families tend to be matriarchal"

I think most Ukrainian families are too. In my opinion UW are very strong and tough.  Life in Ukraine is way harder than it is in UK or USA.   In many ways my wife is stronger than me. She runs the household.  I am not stupid enough to argue on what she regards as her territory!

I agree many UM are weak.  Weak me are easily docilated and in these relationships it is the man who is submissive and is often treated like a servant by his wife....

In Ukraine the guys have one big advantage - they generally control the money.  Outside the big cities womens salaries are a very small fraction of a man's.  Forget all your notions of women being economically independent.  A woman who earns $200 a month is doing very well.  A successful guy will earn more than 5x as much. Of course if the guy is not earning so much he does not have this power.  UW like strong men because they tend to be  better providers in economic terms. 

Respect is very important.  You will not be respected just because you are a man.  You will have to build that respect by acting like one...

My own experience is that Natasha and I went through a period of CATACLYSMIC arguements.  I don't reckon I won any of these rows but I did give in all the time either!  I ended the worst by refusing further discussion. 

I now know that there are subjects where Natasha and I are never going to agree.  We have learned to live with these.  We have also learned to respect one another and in doing so the rows have tailed off...

The agency hype is that UW are "traditional" This invokes the stereotype of a "Stepford wife" - docile and sunmissive.  My view is that the opposite is true. 

A UW woman who has the courage to pack her life into two suitcases and emigrate is going to be strong dominant character. 

You had better be man enough to handle her...

 

 

 

 

 

[Vaughn]

Journeyman, great topic. I'm in doubt that the defensive posture is a Russian/Ukrainian trait, but I do agree it's more likely an individual one, with its roots mired deep in family life and prior experience. We gave ourselves almost two years before taking the leap into a marriage; even given that, I feel she was watching me closely, looking for familiar signs of past strife, as if perhaps the first two years were my facade. I continued being just me - showing her consistency and dependability - exactly what she missed earlier in life. Like Leslie and Natasha, we've had our rows, a few low points, it's part of the growth. Many workplaces employ some catchphrase like "exceed the customer's expectations" - I've strived to live that out at home as well, and in turn, I've been afforded the same. Did she enter this house ready to rumble? No, but she was keenly cognizant of my habits and tendencies, my promise to honor my wife - when those panned out over time, the closeness became cozier.

I am trying to understand her attitudes and expectations...

That's the ticket.

[jb]

Leslie wrote: A UW (RWs fall into this same basket) woman who has the courage to pack her life into two suitcases and emigrate is going to be strong dominant character.
You had better be man enough to handle her...

Truer words were never uttered.  A Caspar Milquetoast personality will be eaten alive.  After over 3 years of marriage I have seen every important detail of this proven on a daily basis.  Etna has become more docile over time, but in the beginning she was constantly looking for reinforcement of my ability to  handle her... Let's just say; we have had our moments.

[MandM]

A UW woman who has the courage to pack her life into two suitcases and emigrate is going to be strong dominant character. 

That's what Mark tells me every time I feel like being weak. He says: "Remember, you are the girl who got on the plane and moved to a foreign country! You've got some balls (well, not literally), so just deal with it! (whatever I say I can't do)"

Well, it does take some balls, believe me. (More reasons for you guys to respect your RWs!) I never thought I could build my life in another country. My family didn't expect that either, as they always considered me shy and not very independent. It feels fantastic to prove them all wrong!

[Leslie]

Elle,

Mark is right.  Making a life in another culture requires real courage.  You deserve the congratulations.  I often reflect how difficult it has been for Natasha and marvel at the progress she has made. If the situation were reversed would I have learnt the language and adapted to living in Ukraine so well?  I doubt it.  Maybe I will get the chance to try as there is a real possibility that we will move to Ukraine.  I don't think there are many guys who would even consider this.

JB,

We know that marriage to a Russian or Ukrainian woman has many difficulties and it's own unique rewards. 

There are no specific statistics on failure rates.  The authorities don't publish divorce rate statistics for MOB's from FSU countries.  However from my own anecdotal experience the failure rates are high.  A substantial percentage of fiance visa applications are abandoned.  ( I have read stats as high as 50%!)  A significant % of the applications that do complete do not lead to marriage.  Even if the regular 2 year divorce rates apply then another 25% of marriages will fail.  All this adds up to a huge attrition rate.

The newcomers may not like me raining on their parade but I reckon around 80% of the relationships which start by filing for a visa will end by the time the woman can file for permenant residency....

On the other hand, Russian/Ukrainian women are very special.  If you find one who truly loves you then all these problems won't matter at all!

 

[525i]

On the other hand, Russian/Ukrainian women are very special.  If you find one who truly loves you then all these problems won't matter at all! 

When I was at Odessa airport waiting departure, after meeting with Tanya, one Ukrainian man started talking with me. Maybe he noticed that I was a foreigner. He talked about Russian soul, went for a smoke and came back. I don't know the reason why he started talking about Russian women. He said that if you have a Russian woman, don't replace her with another woman. She will love as you are. When I told Tanya about this, she said, "You don't need to find another woman. You have me."

[jb]

Leslie wrote: The newcomers may not like me raining on their parade but I reckon around 80% of the relationships which start by filing for a visa will end by the time the woman can file for permenant residency....

I don't doubt your guesstimate at all, in fact I'd say you were being conservative.  This is why most of the old married guys recommend so strongly against the whirlwind courtships.  

Filing for a marriage visa for a woman you don't know and can't even talk to is akin to Russian Roulette, not a game to be taken lightly.

[Todd]

Very interesting topic.  Am I the only one who found humor that JB's wife is named "Etna"???  When I think of Etna, I think of volcanoes....

While I'm not married yet, I've been engaged to Kate for about 6 months now.  One thing that I've noticed about her is that it is rare for me to be able to convince her of something immediately.  However, she does listen to a reasonable and a reasoned reply.  If she likes it, then about a week later, we will be discussing something, and it will come up as "of course we will do things this way...it is reasonable after all."  So, the number one lesson that I have learned is to not back Kate into a corner; it is enough to just plant the seed.  If her opinion doesn't change in a week or two, then it is time for me to examine why my thinking isn't right.  Has anyone else noticed this behavior?

[jb]

Am I the only one who found humor that JB's wife is named "Etna"???When I think of Etna, I think of volcanoes..

No, you've got it exactly right.  She's a very strong minded RW.

[OhioGuyRob]

I havent had the breadth of conversations you have had.  I can only draw on my limited experience with my current girlfriend....