Forum issues

[Trenchcoat]

So thought I would create this thread owing mainly to this forum becoming a bit like a ghost town and how to improve things.

My ideas:

1) A section on this site could be created for International News & Politics with a rule to keep all such to that section. I know Dan in the past has said that people interested in such can do that elsewhere and I get the focus of this Forum is on FSU dating rather than the said. However when most members wish to discuss such and prefer to do it here I think it makes sense to have such a section. I think it could always be created and axed later if it didn't seem to work. Most members I think have a joint interest in the FSU/FSU Dating and International News & Politics and its pretty much all in one for them. I fear that otherwise without change like this the forum will soon die off as members are what makes activity happen.

2). Possibly I might be able to rummage up some poor incels  living a miserable, sedentary life of loveless existence in the UK and direct them here. A kind of incel FSU dating missionary if you like, don't worry I know where they hang out


In general I get some ex-forum members angst about the Russian & Ukrainian division but I don't think that is likely to heal any time soon. So I can understand those on the Russian side staying away but I think it's one where you're one one side or the other in general and I think as this site tends to be a pro-Ukrainian one it's just the way it is on that front. I personally feel this site might be better renamed Ukrainian Woman Discussion or similar so everyone knows where they stand.

I'm not sure why some Ukrainian supporting members are staying away I'm going to guess the lack of activity here. As said I would stay away if due to my presence.

Anyone with anything left to add feel free too.

[ML]

I think setting up a subsection where folks could show support for Russia vs Ukraine would be a bad idea.

It would completely fracture some cordial relationships that continue to exist simply because the parties do not discuss this issue one to one.

It is just like the Democrat vs Republican situation.
Each side cannot comprehend why the other side thinks like they do.

[Trenchcoat]

I think setting up a subsection where folks could show support for Russia vs Ukraine would be a bad idea.

It would completely fracture some cordial relationships that continue to exist simply because the parties do not discuss this issue one to one.

It is just like the Democrat vs Republican situation.
Each side cannot comprehend why the other side thinks like they do.

That's a good point ML, another way to view the situation here. It's never bothered me if someone disagrees with me politically but some people I think it may bother a great deal and they get upset. I never really get upset over politics it can be kind of fun to pit yourself against another, like old Mobers and some people enjoy such and see it as good fun. Others don't take it well though and get out out by it and in that front it is a shame to have fall outs over it and mess the forum up.

On that one then perhaps scrub the above idea of having a International News & Politics subsection/topic. I think though in that case that the removal of the now ominously named 'RWD News from the Front' with the 'Russian Front Discussion' & 'Ukrainian Front Discussion' would be best also. Since the conflict gets discussed in those areas and perhaps this forum would be better steering clear of those areas (the war) and perhaps refocus on what is good about each culture, so perhaps replace it/rename it with a section in the culture of each where current trends on the domestic front, history, language, people's families etc may be discussed. I think that could bring a more warmer and interesting element to this Forum as those who have done the 'finding a FSW' thing can give an insight into the cultural side of being with a FSW rather than ramble on about something they've done to death in finding a FSW. After all with the war it's been talked about, we know where we are at and I don't think it's got a lot of mileage left in it anyway as things grind to a standstill. So indeed I think that avoiding too much talk on such and upsetting others may be the way to go, sorry for those it upset also I didn't realise it was so. In that regard thank you to Steamer for his contribution in that regard.

What do others think about scrapping the 'RWD News from the Front' section? Good idea? Would Dan be open to considering it?

[Grumpy]

 As many of us are getting older, maybe a health and wellness section would be in order.

[Trenchcoat]

Stuff like that may not be a bad idea Grumpy, medical stuff can be done cheap out in Ukraine, etc, and then there is the medical stuff in our own countries, what they offer, what we need to stay healthy or keep our quality of life.

I definitely think freshening up the sections could be an idea. A lot of stuff like scammers and so forth had been done to death and is in some ways old hap. It's up to Dan but I think the scene has moved on and the outlook of this site is possibly a bit old skool these days from how things were nearly a decade or so ago. I'm not saying these pages aren't full of useful info and much still with some relevance but the world moves on. For me I think this site may have met the purpose for which I set out for. I suspect for others possibly the site might have exhausted itself.

I myself have decided to take some time away, maybe a long time, I will of course reply to any mail sent but my concern is that possibly my presence may be off-putting to some and I would like to give others the chance to use this site without my interjection.

I would personally like to see others use this site whatever the case as it's been a great help to me but I think for me it's run it's course, but I hope others will come back to use this site in the future.

[Davo]

Here’s the issues as I see it for you and the site Trench Please  don’t take that and anything more than constructive criticism and genuine advice.

Not much has changed from when successful senior members on this site were meeting, courting and marring their wives. The only difference is they used agencies, catalogs, emails and letters to meet and converse with women and successful men today use the few legitimate dating sites available, then move to messaging apps where it’s a faster method of vetting and getting to know woman than what some senior members had available to them… especially video chat.

The conflict hasn’t deterred men from traveling, meeting and marrying women from all FSU countries and there’s still a need for this site and the advice from senior members. To teach an absolute noob who’s realistic, how to navigate the intricacies of meeting and attracting a FSU women online, then have positive experience when he first travels to meet them, literary takes less than an hour.

This is why Trench you should hang around, you’ve spent years online trying to meet a good woman and thousands of hours here, over thinking and theorising how to meet that woman, when the average (realistic) noob can achieve online success in a matter of hours to a week, then a couple of months later be on the ground and moving forward into a relationship if there’s genuine chemistry.

You’ve only dipped your toes in the water and until you get waist deep in a serious relationship, only then will you’ll have a true understanding of the difficulties you face. Meeting good women and forming relationships is the easiest part of this game, keeping those relationships going to fruition is infinitely more challenging than anything you’ve experienced so far. This is why you frustrate some of the more experienced members, you’re perpetually frozen at the  first and easiest step that you should have taken an hour to get your head around if you followed there advice the day you joined RWD.

The first thing i’m sure you would have been told is you need to be mentally and financially in a good place, make this you’re starting point.  This isn’t easy and Bills statement “This isn’t for novice daters” is %100 accurate. Having a good experience in both Western and FSU dating IMO the only advantage taking this path for a man with realistic expectations, is a better reply rate online and if you’re one of the few willing to get on a plane you can take advantage of a larger dating pool and less competition. It takes a hell of a lot more dedication and commitment than dating at home.

Because of your very limited relationship experience, never having lived with a women in a mutually loving partnership or understanding the saying “love is blind”, has resulted in you regularly making post has no relevance to real world dating or your potential success. It might seem relevant to you, but all of us who have been married and or are actively dating are left bewildered by some of what you say. If you ever climb the first step the senior members here will be invaluable to you because the same courting / relationship problems they faced are the same today, you need to keep them onside.

You’ve often listened to the wrong person. The most important advice for you to take onboard right now is Bills advice to search for a good girl and not arm candy out of your league, they are the women who are more prone to take advantage. It has taken years to sink in but maybe you’re starting to understand this. Don’t be the typical male MOB stereotype, it’s the reason we are all unfairly seen as gullible, desperate fools. My current advice to you is to not waste the women’s and your time when you’re severely under financed to have any chance of success. The minimum $$$ you need in 2023 to be successful in your search is your annual wage in savings (Trenches wage) and then that again when she arrives, anything less and you’re going to fail.

Good FSU girls are smart and no different than most Western women, they will happily marry a guy who’s making an middle class wage if there’s genuine chemistry, but at our age chemistry means nothing if she’s knows being married to you will place her and her current or future children in a financially difficult situation. I’ve had a struggling single mother in her 40’s from Siberia with limited options to meet men, tell me immediately that it will be expensive for me to court and marry her, because the couple of potential husbands she’d met would have placed her in a situation not much better than she was in already. She wasn’t a gold digger, she was being realistic in the face of men that weren’t.

Financial issues are a common reason for couples to argue, i’ve been there!! . If your marriage starts off with this pressure because your true financial position was hidden from her, it will quickly develop into resentment and divorce. No amount of trendy jackets or knock off watches will hide reality for long.

RWD :- The bottom line is it’s not noobie friendly. There been several new members who were flamed when they needed constructive criticism and honest advice and never returned. They are now happily married to FSU women. Privacy is a problem, most men don’t want to discuss their budding relationship on a public forum. A newbie section needs to be accessible by members only who are going to be understanding and tolerant of basic mistakes made by a new comer.  Thousands of men who are considering taking this path read this forum each day, an obvious method to encourage them to join and hopefully contribute is to have the first page of each topic (apart from a newbie section) available to visitors and if they want to read further then they need to sign up to unlock the complete topic. Just a thought, but if changes aren’t trialed immediately then I think it’s a lost cause.

[ML]

Excellent post Davo!!

My one comment is that I was successful despite being a novice dater, at least up to my first WMVM trip.

However, this 'fact' might be a little bit skewed in that I had tons of experience with women all the way from female students, to secretaries, to middle managers, to top executives, lawyers, CPAs, etc.

So, even as I wasn't dating them, I was extremely at ease with women.

- - - - - -

But on the topic of what changes would revitalize this forum . . . I have no good ideas.

[Davo]

Excellent post Davo!!

My one comment is that I was successful despite being a novice dater, at least up to my first WMVM trip.

However, this 'fact' might be a little bit skewed in that I had tons of experience with women all the way from female students, to secretaries, to middle managers, to top executives, lawyers, CPAs, etc.

So, even as I wasn't dating them, I was extremely at ease with women.

- - - - - -

But on the topic of what changes would revitalize this forum . . . I have no good ideas.

After my divorce I’d class myself as a novice dater too. Maybe a better term than novice is being prepared… Mentally, financially, physically, maybe even socially Also it doesn’t hurt if you’re naturally relaxed around women too like yourself. I spent 6 months working on the first three before I attempted to ride the dating rollercoaster after a long relationship.

When I envisage a novice, the documentary Love me comes to mind. Every guy has obviously one or even all three areas to work on. Put aside that they were lining the pocket of a scam PPL company, when in the real world it costs zero to meet real FSU women online …. if they happened to find those sites, they’d struggle. Put you on the same dating site ML and you’d do well. Look at the amount of women you went on dates with back in the day without the ease of using messaging apps, video calls etc…  It must have been time consuming!!

[Trenchcoat]

Here’s the issues as I see it for you and the site Trench Please  don’t take that and anything more than constructive criticism and genuine advice.

Not much has changed from when successful senior members on this site were meeting, courting and marring their wives. The only difference is they used agencies, catalogs, emails and letters to meet and converse with women and successful men today use the few legitimate dating sites available, then move to messaging apps where it’s a faster method of vetting and getting to know woman than what some senior members had available to them… especially video chat.

The conflict hasn’t deterred men from traveling, meeting and marrying women from all FSU countries and there’s still a need for this site and the advice from senior members. To teach an absolute noob who’s realistic, how to navigate the intricacies of meeting and attracting a FSU women online, then have positive experience when he first travels to meet them, literary takes less than an hour.

This is why Trench you should hang around, you’ve spent years online trying to meet a good woman and thousands of hours here, over thinking and theorising how to meet that woman, when the average (realistic) noob can achieve online success in a matter of hours to a week, then a couple of months later be on the ground and moving forward into a relationship if there’s genuine chemistry.

You’ve only dipped your toes in the water and until you get waist deep in a serious relationship, only then will you’ll have a true understanding of the difficulties you face. Meeting good women and forming relationships is the easiest part of this game, keeping those relationships going to fruition is infinitely more challenging than anything you’ve experienced so far. This is why you frustrate some of the more experienced members, you’re perpetually frozen at the  first and easiest step that you should have taken an hour to get your head around if you followed there advice the day you joined RWD.

The first thing i’m sure you would have been told is you need to be mentally and financially in a good place, make this you’re starting point.  This isn’t easy and Bills statement “This isn’t for novice daters” is %100 accurate. Having a good experience in both Western and FSU dating IMO the only advantage taking this path for a man with realistic expectations, is a better reply rate online and if you’re one of the few willing to get on a plane you can take advantage of a larger dating pool and less competition. It takes a hell of a lot more dedication and commitment than dating at home.

Because of your very limited relationship experience, never having lived with a women in a mutually loving partnership or understanding the saying “love is blind”, has resulted in you regularly making post has no relevance to real world dating or your potential success. It might seem relevant to you, but all of us who have been married and or are actively dating are left bewildered by some of what you say. If you ever climb the first step the senior members here will be invaluable to you because the same courting / relationship problems they faced are the same today, you need to keep them onside.

You’ve often listened to the wrong person. The most important advice for you to take onboard right now is Bills advice to search for a good girl and not arm candy out of your league, they are the women who are more prone to take advantage. It has taken years to sink in but maybe you’re starting to understand this. Don’t be the typical male MOB stereotype, it’s the reason we are all unfairly seen as gullible, desperate fools. My current advice to you is to not waste the women’s and your time when you’re severely under financed to have any chance of success. The minimum $$$ you need in 2023 to be successful in your search is your annual wage in savings (Trenches wage) and then that again when she arrives, anything less and you’re going to fail.

Good FSU girls are smart and no different than most Western women, they will happily marry a guy who’s making an middle class wage if there’s genuine chemistry, but at our age chemistry means nothing if she’s knows being married to you will place her and her current or future children in a financially difficult situation. I’ve had a struggling single mother in her 40’s from Siberia with limited options to meet men, tell me immediately that it will be expensive for me to court and marry her, because the couple of potential husbands she’d met would have placed her in a situation not much better than she was in already. She wasn’t a gold digger, she was being realistic in the face of men that weren’t.

Financial issues are a common reason for couples to argue, i’ve been there!! . If your marriage starts off with this pressure because your true financial position was hidden from her, it will quickly develop into resentment and divorce. No amount of trendy jackets or knock off watches will hide reality for long.

RWD :- The bottom line is it’s not noobie friendly. There been several new members who were flamed when they needed constructive criticism and honest advice and never returned. They are now happily married to FSU women. Privacy is a problem, most men don’t want to discuss their budding relationship on a public forum. A newbie section needs to be accessible by members only who are going to be understanding and tolerant of basic mistakes made by a new comer.  Thousands of men who are considering taking this path read this forum each day, an obvious method to encourage them to join and hopefully contribute is to have the first page of each topic (apart from a newbie section) available to visitors and if they want to read further then they need to sign up to unlock the complete topic. Just a thought, but if changes aren’t trialed immediately then I think it’s a lost cause.

Thanks for replying Davo, it is good to have some input here I think as to what the problem may be and I imagine perhaps other members may feel so also. I am replying as I think it's a good post in parts and tried to address the problem. In general I will likely only reply if I see it necessary too as I don't wish to eclipse other members by being overly active here.

I will work through the points you've raised in turn some I agree with others not so. The first point not so, sure there are still some people going to look for FSW but if your statement were true we would still get some newbies here. Instead it is like a ghost town 👻. Practically speaking a lot have been put off Russia & Belarus by safety fears, enemy status, visa concerns, much increased flight times & cost. Ukraine guys have been put off by the war, safety, crossing the border concerns, no flights in and increased travel times using trains, etc as a result. That leaves Moldova which is a small country & still flight concerns. Further afield Georgia & the Stans with much increased travel time and hence flight cost. So there are easier places to go wife hunting, South America, North Africa, Egypt, Turkey, Philippines, Thailand, etc. People usually go with what is easiest & convenient, for me the FSU still is as most if my experience & time to date has been there, but I would be less keen to start over in a new country/area, cultural group. For guys new to International Dating this is not so they have no time input anyway so can decide on the most suitable, usually convenient option for them.

The next point I also disagree with, not to be adversarial though. I don't see it as novice daters having no chance. That's like saying you Davo have no chance as your a divorcee so are willing to actually walk away too readily from any relationship. Novice daters aren't like they used to be back in Bill's day that they are only the guys that have so many issues, come across so badly and are such dysfunctional misfits that they scare away any women. There are many guys around my age and younger who have grown up in a feminist world where they just aren't given any chance by western women who are only interested in what they regard as the top guys. There are as a result many decent novice daters around. You mention the Love Me documentary (one of my favourites ) but remember the NRA nut on there with all the guns, had some kind of shack, standard job and cane across as a social retard. Now by the novice dater statement which he pretty much admitted too, he should have stood no chance, but he succeeded, got married and had a child and I got the impression ended up in a pretty stable relationship. Which brings me to the point that the first step I don't believe is not trying to ace it in an hour of understanding on here but that it is largely down to luck. People often like to belittle luck as they prefer to believe that it was all down to them (it may help, what you learn) but luck can make this journey incredibly easy or incredibly hard for you. You can get lucky on the first meet or lucky meeting the right woman after meets with many different women. Often it is not the first meet as the odds aren't in favour of that but it can happen. So often a numbers game is at hand as that boosts the odds but there are never any guarantees.

The next point I totally agree with that you need to find a good girl as otherwise it's going to be difficult to impossible. That is Bill's best piece of advice I have come to learn. Good girls treat you right and want the relationship to work, bad girls don't. Again that can be down to luck, there are girls who are decent out there and easy to find them but they also need to be into you, attracted to you or it may not be as smooth. The girl I am with at the moment is a good girl and the difference with a bad girl is very noticeable. Admittedly I may not have played all the right moves with girls in the past but a good girl makes it easy to get along with her and I believe long term in a relationship. She wants the relationship to work.

Well my current girl is not at the bottom socio-economic status in Ukraine. She is a girl from a good neck of the woods but in comparison to me my current financial situation being above hers. Her Family have some money, assets in Ukraine but mine pound for ghrivna are likely worth a fair bit more. I may not be some all mighty guy pulling in a six figure sum but importantly I own my own house outright and that gives me a lot of clout in the UK and abroad, far more than most Ukrainians, Russians, etc. In addition the State provision in the UK for education, health care and dentistry being free at point of delivery helps a lot as do the child benefit system, etc. That makes having children feasible and eases living costs. A girl marrying a UK guy has all that to be grateful for The UK also has a State Pension you can live off as well as a welfare safety net as you never know if bad times may come. I get the point though about raising my income but it's not like I aren't trying to improve my situation. The single mother in her 40s no guy is going to touch, local or foreign. There is a reason she is single in that she is the one with unreasonable expectations unless if course she is open to dating wealthy foreign guys 20-30 years or so older than herself. But no guy around her age or probably even 10-15 years or so older than her wants to take in her and her kids with her high earning expectations and pay out for all of them, to live of his back, to be used financially and as a pension plan. That said though there is a point potentially where two people can align with what they are looking for but I think she will have a tough time finding a guy that does. I myself wouldn't want to know, I would rather be a single guy with an X-box, tinnies of my favourite beverage and sitting comfortably in my own pad financially secure even if alone than suffer all of that.

The last point I think you are hitting on something good here Davo. I get that Dan probably doesn't want to do a lot of work on the site as he has a life too of course. I'm not sure if it's feasible just to have certain members reply to a section. Possibly the easiest way to execute it would be to have a newbies section with the top and perhaps only sticky being one which suggests new members message whoever is willing, 2tallbill, ML, etc directly if they want to be assured not being flamed in the forum. Something like that.

I personally think that having just the Newbie section visible possibly not even that unless you register is a good thing. Allowing all the info to be available without anyone having to register is not a good thing in my opinion. If people have to register it's easier for them to get involved in the site, make posts, contribute, etc. A site such as this lives on people giving and giving back not just taking, reading and running off. I think it needs to be understood that we help each other through our collective knowledge and batting off stuff with one another. I admit that at times I have been wrong and others members right and they have helped me out greatly, I would like to think I have helped others who have come on here along the way also. I am pretty sure I have helped some newbies delve into what their issues really were. Anyway, yeah I definitely think that on a privacy front that is also a good idea as we discuss all sorts and people just being able to view most of the site without even having to sign up to see just makes that info all too at hand really. I get some members not wishing to discuss their relationships also. It's ok if they went and met some girl whose English is not good but if her English is good then coming out with the ins & outs of their relationship on a public forum particularly one you don't need to sign up for isn't what those guys want of course.

I don't know what Dan makes of this, as said I wouldn't want to suggest too much work and I know in the past Dan hasn't seemingly been open to alterations. I personally see it as up to Dan, I'm not pushing for him to do anything he would be unhappy doing merely raising the issue as obviously this site isn't working at present as just having ML posting and no one left to post back isn't likely to work well long term as the  discussion is kind of muted. I hope this site improves but it depends on people being involved I feel.

[Trenchcoat]

After my divorce I’d class myself as a novice dater too. Maybe a better term than novice is being prepared… Mentally, financially, physically, maybe even socially Also it doesn’t hurt if you’re naturally relaxed around women too like yourself. I spent 6 months working on the first three before I attempted to ride the dating rollercoaster after a long relationship.

When I envisage a novice, the documentary Love me comes to mind. Every guy has obviously one or even all three areas to work on. Put aside that they were lining the pocket of a scam PPL company, when in the real world it costs zero to meet real FSU women online …. if they happened to find those sites, they’d struggle. Put you on the same dating site ML and you’d do well. Look at the amount of women you went on dates with back in the day without the ease of using messaging apps, video calls etc…  It must have been time consuming!!

The funny thing with the guys on that documentary was that one of the guys had the financial and the physical, the rich guy who was obsessed with working out, but he didn't have any luck on the tour. Mentally he was pretty much there, he was realistic, knew what he wanted, was willing to engage in conversation with the women, did his homework there with the terps. The only foul up he may have made was going around and introducing himself to all the women, in the west likely an ace move but in Ukraine a possible sign of a player or maybe they thought he was one of the hosts/workers, lol. All the other guys featured seemed to have a pretty standard to good income situation in general. I personally see it as long as you have a home and have some income coming in that you can live off it doesn't matter a whole heap. Did the two guys risk missing out to the millionaire guy on their girls because they thought, wow, money! Possibly they might not have figured he was rich but I think they went for the guy that they felt was right for them, seemed right for them and liked. The millionaire guy seemed a decent enough guy and I think astute enough but he was just unlucky most likely on the day, not as unlucky as the guy who met the scammer but unlucky in there presumably being no one for him there.

[Trenchcoat]

Davo one thing I would say about the financial stuff is while you need to have something solid behind you like a house that is worth something all or mostly paid up or a good income, I think overdoing it could potentially be detrimental. That may sound strange but if it's mission complete with the finance situation at least to the extent of having plenty to have a nice sized house and a good income to live very comfortably then what is there left to do? I mean if the financial goal is only somewhere along that path but still plenty more to do then it gives both parties an incentive to work towards even if she is just supporting in a home maker, domestic, emotional way, etc. So if they are working together towards a laudable goal it gives each other a meaning and purpose in the relationship and most importantly binds them together. If it's just the dude that has moved mountains to get real wealthy then while that is great there is nothing for the woman to do but sit there and enjoy it all, there is not that there to bind the two of you. Possibly the relationship might still do well on other grounds but the point being is that not being quite so wealthy and not having quite as much financial strength isn't always a negative I feel. After all plenty of couples get together where there is not a lot of wealth. To be honest I am likely better off than many other people in this country though at the same time some others are better off than me. While I would like to boost my income a little in the future, I am quite happy owning a house outright in the UK where it's wealth can be realised.

Another thing is guys that work too hard and this can link to the above wealthy guys. They work their arse off and go above and beyond working all hours to win in life, sometimes it's just the way they are and their mindset. However all work and no play can lead to neglecting the relationship which can in turn lead to the relationship going downhill at any stage in the relationship. I wonder if any of this might be relevant to you Davo as you seem to do well on finance and be work orientated but as yet still haven't found a girl to settle down with again, I assume.

[ML]

Put you on the same dating site ML and you’d do well. Look at the amount of women you went on dates with back in the day without the ease of using messaging apps, video calls etc…  It must have been time consuming!!

Yes, it was a full time job in the 1-2 months leading up to my WMVM trips.

Although not nearlyt as complicated, I often equated it with my analytical work in acquisition and merger analysis.

Given my relative expertise in M&A work, I was able to easily establish criteria, goals, etc., and send out tons of first contacts, sort and screen replies, send out follow-ups, etc., etc. and have preliminary dates already lined up with 12-20 gals when I touched down.

And, due to my semi-photographic memory (or some such), only 2-3 times out of hundreds did I ever slip up and confuse one gal with another in some correspondence or conversation.

I remember one time I was spending time with gal-2 whom I had spent time with the previous year.  But on this same latter trip, I had already spent 2 weeks with another gal-1.

When gal-2 was heading out of apartment to do some shopping, I said:  Pick up one of those ice cream bars.
She said: What kind?
I said: The same as we had last week.
She said: We weren't together last week.
I said: I meant last year.
She said: We didn't  buy any ice cream bars last year.
I said: Sure we did, for me a vanilla with chocolate covering.
She knew I was BSing, but she said nothing more and came back with the ice cream bars.
Our relationship was already fraying anyway, so no biggie . . . but I was embarrassed to myself for my screw up.

[rwd123]

There's probably a bunch of reasons this forum is essentially dead. Here's a few:

1. There are very few active users.
2. Of the active users, practically none are dating or have dated in years.
3. Less men will travel to Russia and Belarus, Ukraine is eseentially off limits.
4. Forums are not as popular as they once were (certainly not for "passport bros").
5. The old content is largely irrelevant for modern dating.
6. There's very little in the form of useful information (e.g., logistics).

Demographics are completely alien to 20-25 years ago. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union it experienced societal collapse. The TraumaZone documentary series by Adam Curtis will provide a feel for what it was like. There was a huge demand to emigrate from FSU countries (for economic reasons). Today is vastly different. Asides from the war zones life has dramatically improved in many areas and the gap in living standards between the FSU and the West is likely to narrow over the next decade. There's less demand for emigration. Scoring a wife two decades ago was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Technology has not only changed the process (e.g., dating agencies v. Instagram), but has changed the culture. I don't think the older generation understand this well.

[rwd123]

After my divorce I’d class myself as a novice dater too. Maybe a better term than novice is being prepared… Mentally, financially, physically, maybe even socially Also it doesn’t hurt if you’re naturally relaxed around women too like yourself. I spent 6 months working on the first three before I attempted to ride the dating rollercoaster after a long relationship.

I'd probably tweak this but probably still stands up after posting it four years ago.

TC - life is not transactional and deterministic, particularly when dealing with intercultural relationships. Women are different and seek different attributes in a partner. But I'll try to make it easy for you.

There are (at least) five primary factors that will determine possibility of "success" in international dating. They will vary at different times in your life:

A) Money
B) Language skills
C) Time
D) Physical characteristics
E) Personality

Money
-1: you receive any government welfare
0: need to budget, cannot afford two additional dependents, on a "low" income, etc.
1: can support two additional dependents and travel regularly without increasing income
2: money is not a concern

Language skills
-1: No language skills and clueless about the culture
0: Little or no (Russian) language skills
1: Passable conversational ability, can read a bit
2: Advanced conversational ability

Time
-1: Unlikely to visit the FSU in the next six months
0: Hard to take time off work, only two weeks annual holiday, etc.
1: Can travel up to four weeks a year and at least 2 visits
2: Can travel more than four weeks a year and make at 4+ visits

Physical characteristics
-1: 15+ years older than a woman, fat, ugly, etc.
0: 10+ years older, in poor shape, average looks, etc.
1: Within 5-10 years of a woman, in good shape, etc.
2: Less than 5 years older than a woman, good looking, good physique, etc.

Personality
-1: No confidence, boring, lacking social skills, etc.
0: Low confidence and a relatively boring person
1: Confident in dating, intelligent, an interesting interlocur
2: Can engage with people without speaking the same language, confident, charismatic, etc.


Self assess with a critical lens, rank yourself against each and add up your score:

< 0 (Cold): forget it, you don't have a chance.
0-4 (Cool): don't pursue an FSUW unless you dramatically improve yourself.
5-7 (Warm): there's potential but weaknesses may hold you back.
8-10 (Hot): if you're smart and persistent you'll probably find a good woman.


(Note: Whether you have children or not is probably the other factor I'd call out, but it really depends on your age and attitudes of a potential partner, and the age of children, so harder to rank. Generally speaking, -1 if you have kids, +1 if you don't.)

[ML]

Interesting post RWD123.

Quantifying some important variables.

I accumulated 5 points.

Despite my middling score, I fared pretty well with the gals.

[Trenchcoat]

There's probably a bunch of reasons this forum is essentially dead. Here's a few:

1. There are very few active users.
2. Of the active users, practically none are dating or have dated in years.
3. Less men will travel to Russia and Belarus, Ukraine is essentially off limits.
4. Forums are not as popular as they once were (certainly not for "passport bros").
5. The old content is largely irrelevant for modern dating.
6. There's very little in the form of useful information (e.g., logistics).

Demographics are completely alien to 20-25 years ago. After the dissolution of the Soviet Union it experienced societal collapse. The TraumaZone documentary series by Adam Curtis will provide a feel for what it was like. There was a huge demand to emigrate from FSU countries (for economic reasons). Today is vastly different. Asides from the war zones life has dramatically improved in many areas and the gap in living standards between the FSU and the West is likely to narrow over the next decade. There's less demand for emigration. Scoring a wife two decades ago was like shooting fish in a barrel.

Technology has not only changed the process (e.g., dating agencies v. Instagram), but has changed the culture. I don't think the older generation understand this well.

I think that is mostly true, I really missed a trick about 25 years or so back. I wouldn't have thought of going to the FSU to date, to go to Uni there, etc. I would have likely had a fabulous time if I had but none of that was known to me or occured to me. As a young guy in my late teens & early twenties life looked like it could hold great promise in the UK but that was off old information and the way things were and I failed to assess that society was being changed.

Guys are clearly looking abroad, I think the countries they choose may be wider now. However I can't really understand why they don't use forums. I think the younger generation just kind of expect to go out there and have things calm into their lap and if it doesn't work they either go elsewhere or give up. I am not sure they understand that what you put in you get out and there is learning involved though even then nothing is assured. To some extent the world has changed a bit with the Internet and places like the FSU can learn about western culture and get in tune a bit better than they used too, though of course many differences may remain.

I think there has possibly been a rise in guys who aren't serious and just want someone to chat too, are lonely, etc.

The number of guys that are success I get the impression is likely not much or any better than it used to be as many don't understand the culture, what they are dealing with and just give up too readily or don't have the capacity to deal with it. I can get that done guys don't want to bother with the time input of reading on forums much less get involved but it brings me to wonder what they are expecting out of life.

I think this brings me to the point of the outlook of the younger generation (let me bemoan as an old fart ) I wonder if they have just been brought up to just mosey along in life and just accept whatever. If it's just a dull job to go to and go home eat food, watch TV, hand out with mates then that's it. I know from reading on some forums for younger people that there are guys that are lonely desperately want a girl, have never had one by their late teens & twenties, etc and want one. They want to know what to do but seem to want an easy answer with the solution delivered on a plate for them. I have suggested looking abroad to them but don't tend to get any interest there. It's like they just expect it to be delivered on a plate for them. Self entitled Millenials I guess. Maybe when they are older in their thirties they may get more desperate or just give up probably more likely.

So I think a generational change is possibly the reason for it. Millennials have been brought up being spoon fed everything and want the same. The concept of effort and thinking outside the box is seen as unnecessary for them. A shame as while initial success is not guaranteed the challenge is worthy of taking up even if it's ultimately not met with success the fun and adventure of the challenge along the way can be worth it alone I think.

So my thoughts are it's a great shame to see society go that ay and not take advantage of what sites like this are teaching out to give them. I've learned a hell of a lot of forums on all sorts and while it's not so much of a life as such it's a great place to exchange info and get to discuss stuff even get to know others and have a bit of fun along the way.

The older generation I can see that if it's mission accomplished then after a while these sites have less interest and as the guys get older it's more of their past lives that have been and gone and stuff has moved on. Hopefully when the FSU becomes more accessible again stuff will pick up as I think their is still much the FSU can offer the western guy but for now it's looking like a bit of a dry period.

[Boethius]

Technology has not only changed the process (e.g., dating agencies v. Instagram), but has changed the culture. I don't think the older generation understand this well.

LOL.  You're no spring chicken yourself. 


I do believe technology has changed our culture, and I would go as far back as the late 1990's for that change.  I don't think it's been an overall positive change, either.

[Trenchcoat]

LOL.  You're no spring chicken yourself. 


I do believe technology has changed our culture, and I would go as far back as the late 1990's for that change.  I don't think it's been an overall positive change, either.

I agree that around that time, just past the Millennium that the growth of the Internet started to change the way we interact with the world. Before that roughly Millennium tipping point people had to interact mostly personally. After it more and more as the Internet grew both in size, scope and technology, people started to interact more with the internet.

I kind of miss the old world off the 90s and before even though I feel the internet has done a hell of a lot for me. I wished many years before they came out to have internet on the mobile phone and it's developed on great since it has. The stuff you get online I think can be great too, including forums, though forums like social media I think is possible to live your life on instead of real life. So overuse of either can be a bit of a negative in that regards. I can see though like you say that the Internet has not been an overall positive change. While it's given us much and made life easier it has also taken away by making everything too internet based and easily accessible rather than us having to go out and forage in around in society and find out for ourselves.


Dating wise it's a moving game on the internet and in real life. I've found you can be top of your game in knowing how to work the dating game through the internet one day to being out of touch and floundering a year or two later when stuff moves on, such as when Dating Apps became popular. In the west one day there was Match and having to write for England to get meagre response to be replaced with the swipe left & right on photos that probably brought up even less response lol.

Compare that with the old dating scene of the 80s & 90s of actually talking to people and what you were saying in person mattering. That scene favoured a different type of person all over again from the internet scene. But yeah, I am acutely aware that being on top of even having the upper hand on how to function in the dating game one day can be out the next and the pain of relearning and having to deal with a dating scene that has moved on being a regular feature these days.

Back in the day in the noughties we had the quaint world of guys going to the FSU with electronic translators to sit with the girl to aid those that couldn't speak English and them with no to little Russian. Later on we had Google Translate with the regular warning of it not being sufficient as it didn't translate well enough, it was often out a bit. Then it improved and people were arguing whether it was still good enough. Now it's improved a lot more and while not always perfect it's generally good enough most of the time and very few disagree to its use anymore. The girls in the FSU have seemingly moved from not using it (or Yandex) to using it all the time if they need too.

Do the technology moves on all the time in different ways on the internet. When I started my search mostly back in 2016 I was using Email as a part of my interactions with women. Now in recent years I have not used email at all in dating, that mostly finished around 2017 for me I think. So those that were savvy with email like ML in their dating process would have to adjust to using WhatsApp (& similar) and use shorter messages and possibly more frequent messages. Though some dating websites are still a bit email like in the messages sent back and forth, but discovery of a dating work that has moved on in its methods is not always a fun thing for guys who get nicely happy with the way of working things.

[Trenchcoat]

One thing I kind of always regret I think (but only to a point) is not going away on tour in Ukraine. I know people often didn't have good stuff to say about the live tours depending upon results but I think stuff like the AFA tour looked fun. Sure you get the scammer girls there and knowing how to spot them and handle getting away from them is good to know but I think that guy's including myself could at times take all that stuff too seriously and not see what fun could be had. I intended to get around to a love tour around the time COVID hit, then the war came with possibly no end in sight and now it probably looks that I won't need to go on one, lol. I probably wouldn't have had much joy on one anyway but it leaves me wondering at times how the scene would have gone down.

[Turboguy]

I went on four tours and they were a blast.  I do think most of the girls were either scammers or out for a free party but they were still fun.  The last tour was with the Late Jack and his tours were actually somewhat productive. 

[ML]

I went on four tours and they were a blast.  I do think most of the girls were either scammers or out for a free party but they were still fun.  The last tour was with the Late Jack and his tours were actually somewhat productive.

I never met up with a scammer in person, but it might have been fun to see who could score the biggest scam on the other.

I only encountered a few in my email correspondence and just dropped them and moved on to focus on the rest.

I remember one gal who told me (in email) she could spend as much time with me as I wanted, but she had to pay her boss 200 Euro a day for missed work.  A big belly laugh to myself.

Another told me she would have to pay a baby sitter $100 a day.
This was back when many folks worked entire month for less  than $500.

Sad part was . . . some (many) western guys paid such.

[rwd123]

LOL.  You're no spring chicken yourself. 

I do believe technology has changed our culture, and I would go as far back as the late 1990's for that change.  I don't think it's been an overall positive change, either.

The last chick I was seeing was 29 (now 30). Many of my friends who I socialise with are in their 30s. The culture is vastly different from a generation (or two) earlier. If you're dating Betty or Bob in the senior citizens home then granted the advice on this forum would be more useful. I also don't think anything I posted was invalidated.

I don't believe humans have adapted well to technological development since the commercialization of the Internet. In some respects it is diabolical.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all!

[Trenchcoat]

I went on four tours and they were a blast.  I do think most of the girls were either scammers or out for a free party but they were still fun.  The last tour was with the Late Jack and his tours were actually somewhat productive.

Thanks for the input Turboguy, we know on the 'Love Me' documentary two of the guys got married to girls that seemed to be legit and stable, one had a kid with her. One poor guy got scammed despite him having decent intentions and another fell victim to the PPL scam. I have heard online that the AFA tours have a lot of pro date/scammer girls to be spotted and avoided there. Also a lot of girls that turn up for the party though sone of which end up unintentionally finding their other half there. And of course done girls that do go to the tours to genuinely find a guy and leave empty handed as can the guys.

I think not finding anyone on the tours would be a bummer but if a good time was had then it could still be quite a blast. The AFA tours looked a blast despite their reputation for scammers. Anastasia Date tours before they ceased running them also. I thought it was sweet on one video they used to have on You Tube where the Mother turned up with her young daughter to help her find a foreign guy

There was another lot, forget the name think some guy called Mike ran them, more expensive and not a great reputation from sine of those that went in then, I saw a video of one of their tours on You Tube and it was kind of cringe, stiff and starchy looking with women that looked that they were brought in and paid to play the part, don't know if this was the case but it's just the impression it gave me.

I heard of Jack and that he used to write in this board before he passed on. That he did yours that were more productive is a great thing as while a party is good it can feel disappointing if that is all there is when the guy was hoping to meet a girl though of course that can never be assured.

RWD, I think you are somewhat right, dating has changed a bit in the FSU/Ukraine both with technology and generational  change in society/culture. We've already talked about how technology has changed stuff and continues to change the dating game. I think though also the girls are different to how they were before, not vastly different at heart still much the same values but different to previous generations as might be expected. Back in the day were the old ex-Soviet girls, then the post collapse of the USSR girls who grew uo in hard times. Both were of more FSU influence and ways, culturally often very different to us, many into the Arts, theatre, concerts and stuff, that often went hand in hand with the scene. However, more recent are girls that are more westernised, often speak good English, fortunately not too much like western women, still much more feminine and hold good family values, but can relate to life in the west a bit more easily. Sure the change in culture may still be difficult for them at first in reality than it is for them experiencing it over the internet or on TV but it is easier for them to adapt than it was for the previous generation of FSW I think though still not easy.

Anyway, that is me for today, Happy Christmas 🎄 and New Year to all!

[Bee Farmer]

Trench, why would any guy on a tour realistically hope to find anything other than girls looking for money?

The guys pay money to meet girls.  The tour guides try to tell the men they can meet women who will fall in love with them for who they are in 2 minutes.  It doesn't matter that there is a language and culture barrier.  The moment the guy is paying money to meet women, it becomes a transactional arrangement.  The guy isn't looking to build love - he is trying to buy it.

The women are not attending the socials with the expectation of falling in love with a man who speaks a different language.  They attend the socials in order to meet wealthy (compared to the women) men.  The women are willing to try to find a way to overcome language and culture barriers, in order to have a relationship with a rich man.

Is it possible for feelings to develop?  Yes.  But feelings are not what brought the people together.  It was all about money, and all about a transactional relationship.
If you're rich enough, the relationship can last, assuming the guy doesn't run out of money.  If he runs out of money before they develop deep feelings, the relationship ends.  But odds are, the relationship won't last if the guy runs out of money.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.

[ML]

I never dealt with a marriage agency,  nor did I ever go on a tour.

However, I am wondering what is the difference between women one can meet on a tour and women one can meet at a bar or nightclub in your home town.

Some of the women who go to bars or nightclubs are probably looking for a long-term relationship.  Sure they would  like to find a man who can provide them with the financial security they would like to have, but I doubt many of them are thinking in terms of finding a really wealthy man.

So isn't it possible that the UW and RW that can be met (not today) on tours are also just looking for a more or less ordinary guy who can provide them with the financial security they would like to  have?

Of the hundreds of UW and RW I met, I never got the feeling that they were looking for extreme wealth.

In fact, the subject of money was never mentioned - - - except for a couple of scammers that I screened out without ever meeting.

At most, I presume they were thinking . . . if he has money to travel and stay here for extended periods of time . . . then he probably is not poor.

[Bee Farmer]

However, I am wondering what is the difference between women one can meet on a tour and women one can meet at a bar or nightclub in your home town.

The women attending the tour know in advance the men they will be meeting are [rich] foreigners who can offer them a much higher standard of living than they are accustomed to.

The women at a bar or club are not going to expect that every man they meet can offer them a much higher standard of living. 

IIRC, before the war, the average net worth of a Ukrainian was something like $1800.

Sure they would  like to find a man who can provide them with the financial security they would like to have, but I doubt many of them are thinking in terms of finding a really wealthy man.

The Ukrainian girls on the tours know that the men they meet will earn as much in a week or two, as they have acquired in their whole life.

Think about an American girl going to a bar or club who has a net worth of $50,000...and her going to a bar or club when every man she will meet earns $1.3-$2.6 million a year, or maybe more.  Finding true love may be great, but most women will put up with a lot of crap from a man who earns over a million dollars a year.  They might even move to another country and be with a man who they can barely talk to.

That is why Ukrainians view American men as a walking lottery ticket.

At most, I presume they were thinking . . . if he has money to travel and stay here for extended periods of time . . . then he probably is not poor.

Have you considered that your idea of not poor (a guy making $50,000-$100,000 a year) is in her eyes, so wealthy that he earns as much as her net worth every week or two?  Imagine how an American woman would act towards a guy who earned a million a year - it doesn't matter if the guy earns a million a year, or 50 million a year.  It's a winning lottery ticket all the same.

[Trenchcoat]

Trench, why would any guy on a tour realistically hope to find anything other than girls looking for money?

The guys pay money to meet girls.  The tour guides try to tell the men they can meet women who will fall in love with them for who they are in 2 minutes.  It doesn't matter that there is a language and culture barrier.  The moment the guy is paying money to meet women, it becomes a transactional arrangement.  The guy isn't looking to build love - he is trying to buy it.

The women are not attending the socials with the expectation of falling in love with a man who speaks a different language.  They attend the socials in order to meet wealthy (compared to the women) men.  The women are willing to try to find a way to overcome language and culture barriers, in order to have a relationship with a rich man.

Is it possible for feelings to develop?  Yes.  But feelings are not what brought the people together.  It was all about money, and all about a transactional relationship.
If you're rich enough, the relationship can last, assuming the guy doesn't run out of money.  If he runs out of money before they develop deep feelings, the relationship ends.  But odds are, the relationship won't last if the guy runs out of money.
Anyone who thinks otherwise is just fooling themselves.

It varies I think is the answer as to why the girls are there. For instance some girls just turn up to have a party, they aren't that bothered with the guys and usually don't pay the guts much attention is the impression I get. Sure they will probably be nice enough if a guy comes over/with the terp. Many of those girls though if a guy happens to turn up that they feel attracted to and if they are single will then go with that guy. It's like 2tallbill says that a girl will follow a guy anywhere if she is into him and that I believe from what I have seen is very true.

Think of it l, you're a girl living in a sh*thole concrete block apartment. It may have been modernised a bit but as we have discussed it's accommodation is often cramped. You're a girl who works in a regular day to day job, it pays it's way and you get by ok but it's not living and nowhere near enough to be in the frame to by one if those new build more pleasant apartments that some Ukrainians can afford our there.

So, you go along to the free parties that AFA etc hold as a bit of easy entertainment. You're not particularly bothered about the 'old farts' that you've heard these events are synonymous with. Then while at one such events your normal disinterest is taken over by sudden attraction to one of the 'old farts' who just seems to have a pull for you and all of a sudden his being a bit older isn't such a big deal to you as you just feel a strong attraction and liking to him. So you get talking and the more you find out the more you like and vice versa. The guy having experience in life now comes over as a big advantage. This a a guy you can rely on and won't be a rudderless ship with no bearing or idea about how to go about things or likely results as many a young guy will be. What's more you realise that to the guys that are left around locally this guy stacks up well. He comes from a country that has better welfare support, a better economy, better housing (usually) and an altogether more comfortable lifestyle. You as the girl has grown bored of the same old same locally and a life going nowhere, the idea of moving somewhere new and exciting abroad has become enticing....

You see how it can work Beefarmer? Sure that's a good news situation but it can happen there and does so. It happened to two guys on the 2014 'Love Me' documentary, and from what I last saw both of them were still in their relationship and it was all legit, etc.

There wil of course be some girls who are scammers but you can get them on online dating sites also. You will get some girls who have an interest in getting with a guy with money or a guy who is just better overall than the local guts who are left, etc. Sure a girl who is after a guy with money may not be a good relationship to get into, some guys may make a go of it and don't mind, others it's a bad move to make and dooms them to a bad outcome. It's really up to you what you wish to accept or reject from what is put in front of you, but I wouldn't say they will all be bad girls after a guy with money. The flashy looking girls are hard to avert your eyes from in some cases though not all may be bad girls many likely are. However, if you look at the girls in the Tour videos, Love Me Documentary there are often many girls quietly sitting in the background that are more down to earth looking, likely just there to fill in with something to go to in the evening in an otherwise largely dull evening schedule and they I would wager would be the ones to put yourself in front off. More the pullover girl than the party girl.

Unless you get out there and get meeting these girls in real life you won't get to see the differences between them the way a not so good girl acts to a good girl and won't find your way to a girl who is naturally attracted to you for being you and not for some other reason such as money.

[Trenchcoat]

Put it this way Beefarmer, as I've learned over in the FSU there is very likely, highly likely far more likely than in the West to be your counterpart. Your counterpart will be quite likely be there like you may be tonight feeling lonely, depressed about her situation of being single or possibly content enough but not really having the life she dreamed off, with her other half, possibly children, etc. She's in the same boat as you are. If you met you would realise that you are the answer to each other's problems in life and would find happiness in being with each other. The only thing separating you is distance and a will to get on the internet and keep communicating with each other until you find each others, on Fdate, or whatever site or tour (when available) is taking place. I met my girl on Fdate, no guarantee that it will work out for certain but the signs are good. But I accept that you could meet a good girl from the FSU in many places even on tours. Tours probably have a higher number of Scammers potentially I would guess, a bit like swimming in the local river where some piranha's swim they will rush towards a feed if they see it in their vicinity. However, you will also get a lot of other fish swimming there that are normal everyday fish. If you're swimming among them then tours serve to put you right in front of their eyesight also. You're no longer a perhaps awkward looking photo online but a 3D real life person of potentially a lot more attractive proposition than a dry online dating profile. So being there in the moment I wouldn't knock. If you just turn up and enjoy oggling the women and having a bit of fun then it's not a bad deal in itself I think necessarily.

[Bee Farmer]

Think of it l, you're a girl living in a sh*thole concrete block apartment. It may have been modernised a bit but as we have discussed it's accommodation is often cramped. You're a girl who works in a regular day to day job, it pays it's way and you get by ok but it's not living and nowhere near enough to be in the frame to by one if those new build more pleasant apartments that some Ukrainians can afford our there.

So, you go along to the free parties that AFA etc hold as a bit of easy entertainment.

Easy entertainment? Zero chance.  None.  That mentality is totally delusional.  The women attend the tour socials for one reason, and one reason only.

They are going because they know all the men they will meet are the equivalent of millionaires.  Every man is a walking lottery ticket to the girls.

You're not particularly bothered about the 'old farts' that you've heard these events are synonymous with. Then while at one such events your normal disinterest is taken over by sudden attraction to one of the 'old farts' who just seems to have a pull for you and all of a sudden his being a bit older isn't such a big deal to you as you just feel a strong attraction and liking to him.

You don't care if he's old, because you know he is extremely wealthy.

Why do you think 27 year old Anna Nicole Smith married 89 year old billionaire J. Howard Marshall?  She denied marrying him for money. 
But when he died 1 year later, she went to court to get half of his estate.

He comes from a country that has better welfare support,

Girls don't care about welfare support, as they have no intention of needing welfare.  The guy is supposed to be so rich that there would never be a reason to get welfare.

If you think a girl cares about the level of welfare support in your country, it means you are looking for a girl who is looking for a mule.  She will only be using you to get into your country, and then she will kick you to the curb.

You as the girl has grown bored of the same old same locally and a life going nowhere, the idea of moving somewhere new and exciting abroad has become enticing....

No, the girl is sick and tired of living in poverty, and a man looks a lot better when he is a millionaire.  So she asks herself, is she willing to leave family and friends behind, and try to start a new life in another country with a strange man?  How much money will it take?  What is her price?  That is what she asks herself.

but I wouldn't say they will all be bad girls after a guy with money.

Every single one is expecting a guy to have money.  These girls wouldn't give a foreign man the time of day if he was poor.  They can find a poor man in their own neighborhood.  They don't have to leave friends, family, and the life they have.  The poor local man will be from the same culture, and speak the same language?  Why would she want a poor man from a different country with a different culture who speaks a different language?

Unless you get out there and get meeting these girls in real life you won't get to see the differences between them the way a not so good girl acts to a good girl and won't find your way to a girl who is naturally attracted to you for being you and not for some other reason such as money.

A good girl will be very, very reluctant to get involved with a foreign man.  She knows he is from a different culture, speaks a different language, she barely knows him, and she will have to leave family and friends.  But the allure of a life with more financial security...

The not so good girls sell themselves much cheaper.  Rich foreign guy?  Sold.

[Bee Farmer]

Put it this way Beefarmer, as I've learned over in the FSU there is very likely, highly likely far more likely than in the West to be your counterpart.

More likely to be your counterpart? You honestly believe that?

Different language, different culture, you barely know each other.  She will have to leave family and friends.
As opposed to a local girl?

Your counterpart will be quite likely be there like you may be tonight feeling lonely, depressed about her situation of being single

Maybe that's your idea of a counterpart.  My idea of a counterpart is not a girl who is lonely and depressed about being single.  That reeks of desperation.

If you met you would realise that you are the answer to each other's problems in life

Nobody is the answer to your problems in life.  At best, they will be a helping hand as you deal with life's problems.  But they aren't going to solve your problems for you, and you aren't going to be the solution to their problems.

You sound like you are suffering from White Knight Syndrome and looking for a codependent rescuer syndrome.

If you just turn up and enjoy oggling the women and having a bit of fun then it's not a bad deal in itself I think necessarily.

 

Yeah, that's the way to win a girl's heart.  Show up and ogle all the women.  That'll charm the panties right off them.  You should practice ogling the local ladies to perfect your technique.

[ML]

As I have written about here before . . . a relationship that could be viewed as transactional can turn into mutually beneficial companionship and then into true love.

The story of my wife and I is a good example of this.

She had a fairly large sum of money by Ukrainian standards and wanted to come to USA to get a masters degree.  She knew that I was a safe person to be with and that I could provide her a safe place to live.  Don't really know if she also thought of how I could help her with improving her English, navigating academia, etc.

We both soon realized that we were highly compatible . . . even with a few normal bumps along the way.

Currently she really doesn't need me at all for anything.  She has a PhD in mathematics and a fairly  stable position in academia, and she owns multiple properties in 3 countries.  We have a significant age difference and she could readily attract much younger men.

Just now we were talking on the phone while she is waiting to change planes to make the trip to Ireland to visit with family that are refugees from the terrorist Russian invasion.  She will only be gone for 9 days and then will return to USA to resume her calculus teaching duties at the University.

She was telling me how she was already missing me and thinking about how much she really needs me in her life. 
She said: I am about ready to cry. 
I said: Me too.

[Boethius]

The last chick I was seeing was 29 (now 30). Many of my friends who I socialise with are in their 30s. The culture is vastly different from a generation (or two) earlier. If you're dating Betty or Bob in the senior citizens home then granted the advice on this forum would be more useful. I also don't think anything I posted was invalidated.

I don't believe humans have adapted well to technological development since the commercialization of the Internet. In some respects it is diabolical.

Merry Christmas and a happy new year to all!

First I hope you had a good Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and others!

Second, no matter what age the women you are bedding are, it doesn't make you that age.  You're no spring chicken.

I know youth trends because of my children (mine are in their twenties now, but all Generation Z).  But that doesn't make me a part of their cohort.  Personally, I don't think the "how" is particularly relevant, nor does, or has, the forum provided advice on this in the past, beyond "this site is a scam, this one is safe".  But even "safe" sites have scammers.  Typically, common sense will tell you if something is too good to be true, though men, in general, exhibiting common sense when it comes to getting laid is exceptionally uncommon.

I think humans have adapted to technology.  But I also believe it tends to bring out the worst in people.  I think that it has changed social interactions for the negative, in a way that has moved beyond the internet to real life interactions.  It's also given loonies a sounding board, because no matter what crazy theory one may hold, you can always find someone online who will ascribe to it.

[Trenchcoat]

More likely to be your counterpart? You honestly believe that?

Different language, different culture, you barely know each other.  She will have to leave family and friends.
As opposed to a local girl?

Maybe that's your idea of a counterpart.  My idea of a counterpart is not a girl who is lonely and depressed about being single.  That reeks of desperation.

Nobody is the answer to your problems in life.  At best, they will be a helping hand as you deal with life's problems.  But they aren't going to solve your problems for you, and you aren't going to be the solution to their problems.

You sound like you are suffering from White Knight Syndrome and looking for a codependent rescuer syndrome.
 

Yeah, that's the way to win a girl's heart.  Show up and ogle all the women.  That'll charm the panties right off them.  You should practice ogling the local ladies to perfect your technique.

Bee Farmer look for Ukrainian Refugee girls Get your rear on Fdate and search in there. Even put it in your profile that you are searching for a 'Ukrainian Girl already living in the US' you won't have to leave the US to go visit one which I get the impression you are not so keen on and odds are she has already left her family etc to find refuge in the US.

Most Ukrainian girls speak English these days with English speaking having improved a lot since Maidan. In any case yes she can get your counterpart in personality, character even some interests or similar interests to your field even if her language and culture are different. A girl that is into you will make it easy for you and won't put barriers in the way. Get messaging real girls on Fdate now, get some decent photos of yourself done with use if a professional photographer, do a nice little write up briefly stating who you are, what you are looking for (in brief) and that you are liking for a Ukrainian girl already in the US. That will make it EASY for you. Within a short space of time you could be happily visiting your girl in the US, hell she might even live not all that far from you or be willing to relocate to your State/County/Home Bedroom

These girls want a real relationship with a US guy and prefer to do so with one that is open to Ukrainian women and knows a bit about the Ukraine scene. Not many US guys are and that is your big advantage. Even on Fdate apart from the top hottest model girls most girls just get guys who aren't that interested, move onto talking to other girls, keyboard Romeo's, Krackpots, etc. You hang in there with the right girl, show you are serious and set up a meeting to meet the girl and your streets ahead of any other guy. Then it's down to just whether you like each other enough on the meet, if you do you're all sorted. It worked for me!

[Bee Farmer]

Bee Farmer look for Ukrainian Refugee girls Get your rear on Fdate and search in there. Even put it in your profile that you are searching for a 'Ukrainian Girl already living in the US' you won't have to leave the US to go visit one which I get the impression you are not so keen on and odds are she has already left her family etc to find refuge in the US.

What's wrong with continuing to talk to the girl I have been talking with?  She's not looking to escape Ukraine.  Neither of us have a burning desire for marriage in the near future.  It's working for us.  We've met face to face before.  Yes, the war has complicated things, but it works for us, so why look elsewhere?

Have you considered that marriage is not the highest priority in other people's lives?  Maybe it is in yours, but not everyone is like you.

I understand that the main value a marriage would bring into my life...sex and domestic stuff like cooking and cleaning.  And a guy that gets married just to get sex and someone to cook and clean for him...that's not a very solid foundation for marriage.  And if the only thing I offer is economic security for the girl...that's not a very solid foundation either.  I'm past the age of having kids and creating a home to raise a family, and that's the main reason for marriage.  Without that, what's left?
You have to build a strong friendship, and that takes a long time...years.

[Trenchcoat]

What's wrong with continuing to talk to the girl I have been talking with?  She's not looking to escape Ukraine.  Neither of us have a burning desire for marriage in the near future.  It's working for us.  We've met face to face before.  Yes, the war has complicated things, but it works for us, so why look elsewhere?

Have you considered that marriage is not the highest priority in other people's lives?  Maybe it is in yours, but not everyone is like you.

I understand that the main value a marriage would bring into my life...sex and domestic stuff like cooking and cleaning.  And a guy that gets married just to get sex and someone to cook and clean for him...that's not a very solid foundation for marriage.  And if the only thing I offer is economic security for the girl...that's not a very solid foundation either.  I'm past the age of having kids and creating a home to raise a family, and that's the main reason for marriage.  Without that, what's left?
You have to build a strong friendship, and that takes a long time...years.

You have a penpal, she has a penpal, that's all it is.

There's only so long after a first meet, second, meet, third meet, etc that a relationship turns into a penpal if there is no further meeting planned to stop it turning into a penpal.

Imagine if I got chatty with a foreign  student in High School and we agreed to stay in contact with each other by writing to each other. Imagine if that had happened ever since. It would not be any sort of real friendship there just a penpal.

I personally don't like the idea of a penpal, it is kind of like a sad emotional crutch that people rely upon. It's ok to write to someone say on a forum on a casual basis but the idea of a formal 'we write back & forth to one another in a kind of agreed form and see it as a relationship' is kind of fooling oneself & each other.

There is no relationship there penpal is a kind of emotionally infantile way of ones mind laying claim to the notion of a relationship that isn't really present. Does that person ever 'really' want to see you or see you again? Do you ever 'really' want to see that person, or person again?

Or are one or both of you not 'really' wanting that but want the emotional crutch of a relationship that just isn't?

If you said tommorow that you were going to go see her, would you 'really' want to go? Would she 'really' want to see you?

Sex can happen inside or out of Marriage it's not so much if an issue.

The issue is can you find someone compatible enough that you enjoy their time and they enjoy your time to want to be with each other regularly. That's got to be a whole lot better than a penpal crutch yourself along sort of non relationship, sad man's journal type of affair.

You can get yourself a life right now Beefarmer! You can set up a profile pretty speedily on Fdate, write to many different ladies, before long some will start chiming with you. Set out to find a Ukrainian that is already in the US, there are very many now and none of them are wanting to return home the state Ukraine is in. You can be walking along side a Ukrainian girl within a matter of days to weeks without having to go on any lengthy journey. You can choose whether to have kids or not, perhaps she is in her early thirties so lessening the issue if you being older and how long your health might hold out? Many guys live to their 70s, 80s even 90s so you are not necessarily too old as you think you may be.

Do you still want to be penpaling it through the next few potentially the next few decades of your life having a half life or a real life?

[Bee Farmer]

The issue is can you find someone compatible enough that you enjoy their time and they enjoy your time to want to be with each other regularly.

What's the definition of "regularly?"

You assume that everyone wants a dependent or codependent partner who will be stuck up their butt all the time.  I don't.  She doesn't.

We both understand that things right now are in a holding pattern because of the war.  We both enjoy the friendship right now, and future plans are dependent upon "if she is still alive after the war." 

You can get yourself a life right now Beefarmer! You can set up a profile pretty speedily on Fdate, write to many different ladies, before long some will start chiming with you. Set out to find a Ukrainian that is already in the US, there are very many now and none of them are wanting to return home the state Ukraine is in. You can be walking along side a Ukrainian girl within a matter of days to weeks without having to go on any lengthy journey. You can choose whether to have kids or not, perhaps she is in her early thirties so lessening the issue if you being older and how long your health might hold out? Many guys live to their 70s, 80s even 90s so you are not necessarily too old as you think you may be.

You assume this is what I want.  What you have described does NOT sound appealing to me.

It is pure foolishness (if not downright stupidity) for anyone over the age of 35 to have children.

I have never had the desire to have children.  I'm in my mid-40's, and think that I can safely say that I will never have kids.

[ML]

. . . a dependent or codependent partner who will be stuck up their butt all the time. 

WOW . . . how does that work ?

[Bee Farmer]

WOW . . . how does that work ?

As Trench has described it, it involves a beautiful girl who desperately wants to live in poverty to be with you, who wants to have lots of babies you can't afford, and who is unable to do anything for themselves so they will be completely dependent on you.

That, and a whole lot of lube.

[Trenchcoat]

What's the definition of "regularly?"

You assume that everyone wants a dependent or codependent partner who will be stuck up their butt all the time.  I don't.  She doesn't.

We both understand that things right now are in a holding pattern because of the war.  We both enjoy the friendship right now, and future plans are dependent upon "if she is still alive after the war." 

You assume this is what I want.  What you have described does NOT sound appealing to me.

It is pure foolishness (if not downright stupidity) for anyone over the age of 35 to have children.

I have never had the desire to have children.  I'm in my mid-40's, and think that I can safely say that I will never have kids.

Beefarmer, I will try to say this as clearly as I can, 'You have No Relationship here, none, nothing'

You saw each other once and decided that it's not worth seeing each other again just writing silly messages to each other. If you wanted to be with each other you would be.

Throw away that crutch you are leaning upon and get a real relationship in the here and now. It's Easy!!!

It's Easier than it has EVER been for you to get a Ukrainian woman in your home country. Stuff the Penpal.

At the moment there are hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian women in the US, the UK and the EU.

Many are wanting a real relationship with a guy and are just waiting for a guy to show up. Literally all you have to do is show up with some of them and you can get straight into a LTR. It can be that easy, way easier than it ever was going over to Ukraine to do it.

Why really have any sort of stuff going on out there when you can get a real thing going here. You think Soilder Girl would bother with you if a load of hot western guys suddenly flooded into Ukraine. No, girls who aren't in a committed relationship would drop you like hot coal and go get one of those guys.

Ukrainian girls in the US are wide open to you. Many guys don't realise that they don't/can't return home ever since the much vaunted counter offensive failed. Their whole attitude has changed as a result of that. They are now accepting of their present situation and making a go of it where they are. You've just got to be there for them, that's all you've got to do. Sign up in Fdate and you'll find them.

Or do you want to penpal it for the rest of the war, she either die, goes of with another guy or just ditches you. Her interest isn't there in you, you are wasting time with her and going to miss out in the opportunity literally all around you. Once the war is over those Ukrainian girls around you will probably move on, your chance wasted.

Even guys in their 50s have children, don't sweat it, do whatever you want to and are comfortable with, but I would say at least get a real relationship.

[Bee Farmer]

You can set up a profile pretty speedily on Fdate, write to many different ladies, before long some will start chiming with you. Set out to find a Ukrainian that is already in the US, there are very many now and none of them are wanting to return home the state Ukraine is in.

Just for kicks, I checked out Fdate.  I did a search of women 8 years or less than me, never married, no kids, and within my preferred height and weight range.  Guess how many women there were in the search results?

One.  That's it.  And she only had one photo that was blurry.

So I did a search on Fdate of girls in Ukraine meeting the same metrics.  Guess how many women were in the search results? 28. (Only 17 if I required them to know some English.)  None of those piqued my interest.

It's Easier than it has EVER been for you to get a Ukrainian woman in your home country. Stuff the Penpal.

At the moment there are hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian women in the US, the UK and the EU.

No, there are not.  There are lot of Ukrainian women in the UK and the EU.  There are very few in the US.

[Trenchcoat]

Just for kicks, I checked out Fdate.  I did a search of women 8 years or less than me, never married, no kids, and within my preferred height and weight range.  Guess how many women there were in the search results?

One.  That's it.  And she only had one photo that was blurry.

So I did a search on Fdate of girls in Ukraine meeting the same metrics.  Guess how many women were in the search results? 28. (Only 17 if I required them to know some English.)  None of those piqued my interest.

No, there are not.  There are lot of Ukrainian women in the UK and the EU.  There are very few in the US.

Good you were open enough to look Beefarmer.

I would say that it's possible to go for someone over 8 years younger than you. I know some people get concerned over scammers and being realistic but a lot of that relates more to women that are in their early to mid twenties or younger. That's not to say it's not possible to find a girl in that age group that would genuinely go with a much older man but it's a harder find. The early to mid twenties age group or younger tends to be very vibrant in most countries. So unless the girl has real issues dating for whatever reason then that can be a difficult age group for older guys to date in and better left alone.

However, a lot of girls in their late twenties and into their thirties are often very available and genuine. That's not to say the odd bad egg may crop up but most are genuine and available. Sone are looking for someone specific and you may or may not fit their idea of the man they want. A lot from places like Ukraine just want a solid guy who isn't going to use them for sex as a bit on the side but wants a permanent relationship, some want children some don't. Out in Ukraine girls near or in their thirties tend to want a guy who is ready to be in a stable relationship with them. Guys in their forties they know can't pick a girl up every day of the week and don't tend to want girls of a similar age - so they see guys that are older as the solid non player types they want, plus they may be more set up financially.

So I wouldn't write off going for girls a bit younger. Especially at the moment as the way things are out there a stable guy is a steady ship in rocky waters

[Daveman]

...

So, even as I wasn't dating them, I was extremely at ease with women.

- - - - - -

This.. Right there.. Cannot possibly be overemphasized.  That's like the key which opens the palace.