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Author Topic: Putin is Ruining Russia  (Read 232943 times)

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Offline Misha

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #350 on: July 30, 2014, 04:18:11 PM »
I agree with Doll that the mob-like confrontation with a man simply displaying a St. George's ribbon is too much. 


Perhaps, but given that men wearing these ribbons occupied cities and brought in mercenaries inflicting great harm to the citizens of those cities, displaying a St. George's ribbon openly is saying that you side with Strelkov et al. and presumably wish that the same would happen in Odessa or other cities in Ukraine  :o

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #351 on: July 30, 2014, 04:22:59 PM »


Lessons to be learned so far:

If you're with us, you can kill as many innocent folks you want and we'll turn a blind eye. However, if you are against us, and since we've included your economy into ours, then anything you do differently than where our interest lie - then your people will direly suffer for it.

Welcome to spreading of democracy (because of our generous attitude) unto our world one nation at a time....



You hit the jackpot with the lesson you have learned.  There is a lot of Ukrainian civilians dead from the UKRAINIAN ARMY, yet it hasn't been reported widely.  Why is that? My feeling is that it is being downplayed by our 'representatives' as it doesn't fit into the narrative they are promoting at all.  Ballistic missiles don't get used everyday, although it is has been reported (barely) that Ukraine's govt is now using them...and the western news media is mostly ignoring it....That should seem odd.   All that said, Ukraine obviously can do as it pleases, if they feel civilians were in the way of Separatists and felt it was best to kill them all that is their choice...but not to cover it at all...that is weird. I can't help but think, had the shoe been on the other foot, Kerry, McCain, etc etc would be screaming and it would be all over the headlines.  I don't feel like we get a proper accounting of what is going on. 


Fathertime!     
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Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #352 on: July 30, 2014, 04:35:00 PM »
Nice diversion.  Where are your facts.  FLAT OUT:  You don't have any.  This whole tirade for the last three months is built on VAPOR WARE.  You have no direct evidence of the US's involvement.  As a matter of course, the US has let Russia play this out and look like fools.  A good strategy. 

So,  GQ, with the entire Forum wondering, where is your evidence of US involvement in Maidan?

Your credibility on this board is completely lacking because when you are asked a direct question, you divert and insult.

Can't play with the big boys.

Educate yourself, jone. Educate yourself.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #353 on: July 30, 2014, 04:40:48 PM »
Apparently not very well.  Enough were deported and murdered by Stalin (Putin's hero) and then enough ethnic (white) Russians were imported, that the Russian Federation was able to pull their annexation stunt so quickly.  The ones remaining have been treated very badly.


On your comment re "white" Russians.  Tatars often are light skinned and light eyed.  I knew a Tatar in Kyiv.  He was blond and blue eyed.  He'd been born in Siberia, his name had been Russified, he didn't advertise his ethnic origin, but my husband knew him well, and he knew his family history.  My husband knew a lot of Tatars, and virtually all of them were light skinned and green eyed.


BTW, I believe Doll is half Tatar. :)
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline jone

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #354 on: July 30, 2014, 04:49:11 PM »
Educate yourself, jone. Educate yourself.

In other words (you can say it) "I DON'T HAVE ANY FACTS.  I'VE BEEN BUSTING THIS FORUM's CHOPS FOR THREE MONTHS WITHOUT ANY FACTS."

See, I read what you wrote at the time.  There is no evidence of US involvement in Maidan.  I don't need to educate myself.  You come on here, make assertions and have no evidence to back yourself up. 

No more insults.  No more diversions.  Just the facts.  Can't share them because there are none.

You subscribe to a theory that if something bad happens in the world, your country is to blame.  I happen to think Maidan was a direct response to Russia trying to manipulate Yanukovich.  Most of the people in the protests said as much. 

You come on here and say it was all manipulated by the US.  But you have absolutely no evidence to back it up.  Don't you think, this being an Eastern European country. that Russia would have shouted from the rooftops if it had credible evidence?  Why do you think the Russian media kept blaming the Banderistas.  They did so because they couldn't tie the US to the protests.

You can point in different directions all you want, but absent any facts, which you obviously don't have, every time you say that Maidan was the US's play, we're gonna ask you for the facts.
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Offline Muzh

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #355 on: July 30, 2014, 05:13:04 PM »

It ain't America's to give away. But an interesting window into your thinking.


I was thinking about this statement and I had to respond.


Sorry to disappoint you but it is the USA to give away.


Before the Soviet collapse, way before that, the USA had a system of checks and balances. It kept the Executive Branch from getting to "imperial." Unfortunately for the Soviets, it was basically the opposite. There were no checks and balances and you saw what happened when they few did not corresponded with the many. Eventually it collapsed beyond its own weight.


So what happened? The US ended as the only superpower in the world. And because of this, the Presidency of the US has become THE source of power, aka, an imperial Presidency. Don't believe. :Listen to the moniker "The Leader of the Free World." Basically, the ruler of the world.


Sp like it or not (personally, I don't like it) it seems that you, as a Brit, have no choice whatsoever to change the way we do things. Same goes for the Ukrainians and Russians, no matter how much Putin takes off his shirt. Count your blessings it is Obama and not McCain.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline southernX

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #356 on: July 30, 2014, 05:19:49 PM »

You hit the jackpot with the lesson you have learned.  There is a lot of Ukrainian civilians dead from the UKRAINIAN ARMY, yet it hasn't been reported widely.  Why is that? My feeling is that it is being downplayed by our 'representatives' as it doesn't fit into the narrative they are promoting at all.  Ballistic missiles don't get used everyday, although it is has been reported (barely) that Ukraine's govt is now using them...and the western news media is mostly ignoring it....That should seem odd.   All that said, Ukraine obviously can do as it pleases, if they feel civilians were in the way of Separatists and felt it was best to kill them all that is their choice...but not to cover it at all...that is weird. I can't help but think, had the shoe been on the other foot, Kerry, McCain, etc etc would be screaming and it would be all over the headlines.  I don't feel like we get a proper accounting of what is going on. 


Fathertime!   

FT  AGAIN , there is reporting of this , ''you '' just havent read it

it has been minimal given the difficult circumstances and how the terrorists have chosen to fight from within civilians apartments and schools , hospitals etc and much of the supposed shelling /killing of ukraine citizens being blamed on the ukraine military is actually being done by the terrorists deliberatly ,

SX
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Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #357 on: July 30, 2014, 05:25:33 PM »

 


Sorry to disappoint you but it is the USA to give away.


Before the Soviet collapse, way before that, the USA had a system of checks and balances. It kept the Executive Branch from getting to "imperial." Unfortunately for the Soviets, it was basically the opposite. There were no checks and balances and you saw what happened when they few did not corresponded with the many. Eventually it collapsed beyond its own weight.


So what happened? The US ended as the only superpower in the world. And because of this, the Presidency of the US has become THE source of power, aka, an imperial Presidency. Don't believe. :Listen to the moniker "The Leader of the Free World." Basically, the ruler of the world.


Sp like it or not (personally, I don't like it) it seems that you, as a Brit, have no choice whatsoever to change the way we do things. Same goes for the Ukrainians and Russians, no matter how much Putin takes off his shirt.


Having the most powerful military and a large GDP doesn't give us qualification to be leader of the world.  It really doesn't....much of the world resents us acting like we are.  I believe we would be better served to pull back quite a bit. 


Count your blessings it is Obama and not McCain.


That is true...if somehow McCain was elected, the USA and the world would be in much worse shape.  The American people are generally unsupportive of Obama, but for McCain it would have probably been worse...I think there would have been riots in the streets if he made the types of choices it seems it he would have.


Fathertime! 



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Offline AC

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #358 on: July 30, 2014, 05:26:06 PM »

On your comment re "white" Russians.  Tatars often are light skinned and light eyed.  I knew a Tatar in Kyiv.  He was blond and blue eyed.  He'd been born in Siberia, his name had been Russified, he didn't advertise his ethnic origin, but my husband knew him well, and he knew his family history.  My husband knew a lot of Tatars, and virtually all of them were light skinned and green eyed.


BTW, I believe Doll is half Tatar. :)


Very interesting, thank you.  The ones I met so far had darker hair and darker features. 

Offline GQBlues

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #359 on: July 30, 2014, 05:29:02 PM »
In other words (you can say it) "I DON'T HAVE ANY FACTS.  I'VE BEEN BUSTING THIS FORUM's CHOPS FOR THREE MONTHS WITHOUT ANY FACTS."

See, I read what you wrote at the time.  There is no evidence of US involvement in Maidan.  I don't need to educate myself.  You come on here, make assertions and have no evidence to back yourself up. 

No more insults.  No more diversions.  Just the facts.  Can't share them because there are none.

You subscribe to a theory that if something bad happens in the world, your country is to blame.  I happen to think Maidan was a direct response to Russia trying to manipulate Yanukovich.  Most of the people in the protests said as much. 

You come on here and say it was all manipulated by the US.  But you have absolutely no evidence to back it up.  Don't you think, this being an Eastern European country. that Russia would have shouted from the rooftops if it had credible evidence?  Why do you think the Russian media kept blaming the Banderistas.  They did so because they couldn't tie the US to the protests.

You can point in different directions all you want, but absent any facts, which you obviously don't have, every time you say that Maidan was the US's play, we're gonna ask you for the facts.

OY!

Like a yapping little chihuahua...

Listen, if you do not have the faculty to understand what I have been telling you, it isn't any of my concern.

1. It isn't my fault you have difficulty understanding words in a language you were born into. Nor was it my fault for not having English as my native tongue but had to educate you with it.

2. It isn't my fault being a naturalized citizen of this country having to correct someone like you a native born in this country about the reality of the way we globally do business with everyone else - specifically about your stupid assertion of our *generous attitudes*.

3. It isn't my fault your simple, over idealistic vision of the world is structured within the confines of your secular, self-defecating, overly-simplistic beliefs that the good ol' USA is all about baseball and apple pies. It isn't silly boy.

4. My evidence with which you ask but can't seem to grasp, is all over this thread and had been all over this board -since all of these discussions sprung up going on for months now. If you have difficulty putting one and another on your own, then deal with that alone. I seek no ownership to your inadequacies.

5. My evidence and facts can even be seen in your OWN posts. In your stupid state, you deny something but subliminally state the contrary. How so, you ask? Okay...let me give you a couple samples so you can see it for yourself..

1.
...As for GQ's broken record of US involvement:  The US involves itself in every country it can achieve trade with.   I don't think that the US was any more or less involved with Ukraine than any other country in Eastern Europe...

2.
...Yes, the US has had their history of abusing countries.  I know of no powerful country that hasn't.  But if we are to freeze the economy of the world by proceeding into another cold war, then we better do it with our eyes wide open, and not because we have some forum pansy claiming that the US is interfering in other nation's affairs.

The US is the world's strongest economy.  With that moniker comes the ability to use economic might to maintain standards of civilization.  It is still our responsibility to demonstrate to the rest of the world that we aren't going to let everything be flushed down the toilet because we don't have the cajones to make a tough call on economic warfare.

The true strategic importance of US involvement in Ukraine is not the individual fight between Russia and her former vassal state.  The importance of Eastern Europe is that the US and Europe can ill afford to be caught asleep at the wheel. We have a demonstrated foreign policy that does nothing but appeasement.  If that is to continue, we can expect more of the same challenges, not only in Ukraine but in the Middle East, South America and our own back yard.

That baby, is as stupid is as stupid does.

Now, so that you don't go crying like a little child again like you have in the past - or maybe you will again - hamper down some and educate yourself a little more. So run along...

Your state of cluelessness is not, and will never be, my cause of priority and concern.

Now deal with that. I've humiliated you enough.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 05:41:58 PM by AnonMod »
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1. Because of 'man', global warming is causing desert and arid areas to suffer long, dry spell.
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3. N95 mask will choke you dead after 30 min. of use.

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #360 on: July 30, 2014, 05:31:01 PM »
FT  AGAIN , there is reporting of this , ''you '' just havent read it

it has been minimal given the difficult circumstances and how the terrorists have chosen to fight from within civilians apartments and schools , hospitals etc and much of the supposed shelling /killing of ukraine citizens being blamed on the ukraine military is actually being done by the terrorists deliberatly ,

SX


SX, it has NOT been reported in our media.  You are in Australia, and probably don't hear our news, or read the same version of CNN, Fox, etc etc.... there hasn't barely been a mention of ballistic missiles or large amounts of Ukrainian civilian casualties by the hands of the Ukrainian military.  I'm on this story every day from several angles and it is not being reported here much at all.  That is very odd to me.  Ballistic missiles and massive civilian casualties are big stories usually. 


Fathertime!     
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline AC

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #361 on: July 30, 2014, 05:31:57 PM »

I was thinking about this statement and I had to respond.


Sorry to disappoint you but it is the USA to give away.


Before the Soviet collapse, way before that, the USA had a system of checks and balances. It kept the Executive Branch from getting to "imperial." Unfortunately for the Soviets, it was basically the opposite. There were no checks and balances and you saw what happened when they few did not corresponded with the many. Eventually it collapsed beyond its own weight.


So what happened? The US ended as the only superpower in the world. And because of this, the Presidency of the US has become THE source of power, aka, an imperial Presidency. Don't believe. :Listen to the moniker "The Leader of the Free World." Basically, the ruler of the world.


Sp like it or not (personally, I don't like it) it seems that you, as a Brit, have no choice whatsoever to change the way we do things. Same goes for the Ukrainians and Russians, no matter how much Putin takes off his shirt. Count your blessings it is Obama and not McCain.


Obama does seem to be polar opposite to the Bush Jr's and McCains of the world.  But I still don't think that it's the point of what the USA wants; other than what Ukraine wants.  It is Ukraine who wanted a trade agreement with the EU and apparently closer ties to the US.  Contrary to the narrative of some here the USA has simply not interfered in Ukrainian affairs in any large measure.

It's the choice of Ukrainians whether they want to have a closer relationship with the West; but Russia seems to think that Ukraine is still their subservient property.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #362 on: July 30, 2014, 05:40:55 PM »

SX, it has NOT been reported in our media.  You are in Australia, and probably don't hear our news, or read the same version of CNN, Fox, etc etc.... there hasn't barely been a mention of ballistic missiles or large amounts of Ukrainian civilian casualties by the hands of the Ukrainian military.  I'm on this story every day from several angles and it is not being reported here much at all.  That is very odd to me.  Ballistic missiles and massive civilian casualties are big stories usually. 
Fathertime!   


Does the NYT count?


http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/29/world/europe/civilian-death-toll-rise-in-ukraine.html?_r=0


http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/ukraine/index.html?inline=nyt-geo




The Washington Post?


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/22-civilians-reported-killed-in-east-ukraine/2014/07/29/a846ac6e-1708-11e4-88f7-96ed767bb747_story.html


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/22-civilians-reported-killed-in-east-ukraine/2014/07/29/f51fff7a-170f-11e4-88f7-96ed767bb747_story.html


Associated Press (via huffpo)?


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/29/civilian-deaths-east-ukraine_n_5629487.html
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #363 on: July 30, 2014, 05:42:08 PM »

Perhaps, but RUSSIAN-SPEAKERS (with or without an accent) who do not want to see the St. George ribbon that they associate with terrorists killing Ukrainians.... Again, my point remains, Putin's crusade has made patriots out of Russian-speakers in Ukraine. Quite a feat!
My point remains- they are bunch of idiots (on the video). To do this because of this ribbon? Crazy people.
One more time- WU always was against Russian- speakers. I remember the time when I was there myself and it was MANY years ago (the times of USSR)They always hated everything Russian.
Leave Putin alone in this regard.

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #364 on: July 30, 2014, 05:46:09 PM »
Yes, it had a fairly elected president until the coup d'etat. A junta that kills its own citizens is not very free and fair.



Which junta are you referring to?  That of Putin?  That of Yanukovych?  Poroshenko received a higher percentage of the vote than either. 

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #365 on: July 30, 2014, 05:46:31 PM »
So what about "how Tatars are treated in Crimea"? :D
 

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #366 on: July 30, 2014, 06:00:56 PM »
Doll, first, I don't think those videos are in Western Ukraine.  Western Ukrainian accents are quite different from those.

I have posted this, but I would disagree to some degree with your statement.  My SIL is from Kyiv, but her passport says she is Russian, and she speaks only Russian.  She always went to the Carpathians for her vacations, with no issues.

However, let's also consider the history.  The population there was brutalized when the Bolsheviks came in 1939.  7,000 bodies were buried under the NKVD headquarters in L'viv between October of 1939 and June of 1941.  Tens of thousands of mass graves have been uncovered since the collapse of the USSR.

Western Ukrainians fought the Red Army until the mid 1950's.  Until 1959, tens of thousands of Ukrainians were deported to gulags or labour camps in Siberia.  Some were allowed to return during Khrushchev's time, but not all.  If one had a relative in the West, or had even a minor connection to UPA (came from a village with many UPA fighters), they were guilty by association and sent to a labour camp.  One of my relatives was a teen who did the laundry for a few UPA members, and for that, she was tortured and sent to a gulag, where she was routinely raped.

Western Ukraine was not administered by Kyiv, but by Moscow.  It was routine to "import" Russians as bosses over the workers there, as they were not "ideologically developed".

As I have posted in the past, a village could be lacking a math, physics, or chemistry teacher, but every village, no matter its size always had a Russian language teacher.  Ukrainian literature was restricted, and the media was predominantly Russian.  Every teen was forced to join the Komsomol, even in zadrepani selos.   All my cousins, living on a kolhosp (kolkhoz), were forced to join the Komsomol.  My husband told me that in Kyiv, for example, you could mouth off to a policeman, you could refuse to join the Komsomol, and you'd survive.  That was not the case there. 

All churches were closed, or converted to Orthodox churches.

All students, whether attending a university or a night college, were compelled to repay the state for their education by serving 2 or 3 years in another Soviet republic.  For Western Ukrainians, it was common to be sent to the Central Asian republics.

Along the borders, Moscow would often send strangers, and if a local did not report seeing him, they would be jailed for a short period.

All of this was routine, up to almost the collapse.  So, it was natural, given what occurred, that there would be a blow back, to some degree. 
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:04:02 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

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« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:08:09 PM by AC »

Offline fathertime

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I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #369 on: July 30, 2014, 06:06:18 PM »
Most people read them online, though, and would just link to the "world" section.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #370 on: July 30, 2014, 06:07:04 PM »

Very interesting, thank you.  The ones I met so far had darker hair and darker features.
I only dated a couple Ukrainian gals...one gal was a Tator and i spent about a week with her...Tall...dark hair....curvy body....somewhat atypical of what I pictured most Ukrainians to look like. 


This was 2005 and I was rather idealistic as it pertains to the Orange Revolution...I made a comment regarding support for Yushchenko...clearly she wasn't having any of that though...she was a Yanukovych fan.


Fathertime!   
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #371 on: July 30, 2014, 06:08:22 PM »
The "crazy Ukrainian nationalists" of L'viv.






After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Doll

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #372 on: July 30, 2014, 06:08:37 PM »
Quote
I have posted this, but I would disagree to some degree with your statement.
What statement?

Offline southernX

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #373 on: July 30, 2014, 06:09:05 PM »

Yeah...PAGE 9. Barely a mention on CNN and Fox News. 

Fathertime!

FT there is news of it , how much effort have you been putting in to look yourself FGS??

just do a simple google of it , and you will find that info ,

all the world  media are carrying varying accounts of the ukraine crisis , it is a global age you know  ;)


this link below might help you get the human side of it from an australian perspective of the innocent involved in this atrocity

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-18/malaysia-airlines-mh17-australian-victims/5607188

SX
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:11:18 PM by southernX »
Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car.

Offline Boethius

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Re: Putin is Ruining Russia
« Reply #374 on: July 30, 2014, 06:09:37 PM »
I only dated a couple Ukrainian gals...one gal was a Tator and i spent about a week with her...Tall...dark hair....curvy body....somewhat atypical of what I pictured most Ukrainians to look like. 


This was 2005 and I was rather idealistic as it pertains to the Orange Revolution...I made a comment regarding support for Yushchenko...clearly she wasn't having any of that though...she was a Yanukovych fan.


Fathertime!


Tatars aren't Slavs.  They are a Turkic people, and usually Muslim. 

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:33:16 PM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

 

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