The Propaganda War

[Shadow]

Rebel? Who are you to say that? Rebelling from who?
Ukrainians has as much right as any other nation to be free and defend their land.

Except for those in the East.

[missAmeno]

Except for those in the East.

You mean Russian tourists or Russian army?

[Shadow]

You mean Russian tourists or Russian army?

You mean Ukrainians are so weak as people that a hand ful of tourists can keep them hostage for months?

[missAmeno]

You mean Ukrainians are so weak as people that a hand ful of tourists can keep them hostage for months?

You mean russians are so vile as people that they have no shame to hide behind children and women?

[Shadow]

You mean russians are so vile as people that they have no shame to hide behind children and women?

You should know, you lived with them.

[Boethius]

You mean Ukrainians are so weak as people that a hand ful of tourists can keep them hostage for months?

Unless an army wants to slaughter hundreds of thousands of innocents, then yes, terrorists do have an upper hand when they fight from civilian areas.

[fathertime]

Rebel? Who are you to say that? Rebelling from who?
Ukrainians has as much right as any other nation to be free and defend their land.

If you are going to ask who I am then  exactly who are YOU?  So what if you are from  the area and have a brother fighting. 

That said, linguistically I used the wrong word in 'rebel'. The sentiment is the USA is delighted  and encouraging Ukrainians to RESIST.  It doesn't matter if they die doing it, even if there could be a better way to solve the crisis. Whatever and whomever we can use to bloody Russia is the longer term plan and where our real interest lies.

Fathertime!

[missAmeno]

You should know, you lived with them.

Shadow, have no idea how you came to such conclusion but I can assure you I have never lived with Igor Girkin (Strelkov), Igor Bezler, Alexander Borodai, Vladimir Antyufeyev, or any other Russian tourist rebel fighting on East of Ukraine and neither I lived with any of Kremlin schizophrenics who encourages russian tourists to hide behind Ukrainian children and women.

[missAmeno]

If you are going to ask who I am then  exactly who are YOU?  So what if you are from  the area and have a brother fighting. 

That said, linguistically I used the wrong word in 'rebel'. The sentiment is the USA is delighted  and encouraging Ukrainians to RESIST.  It doesn't matter if they die doing it, even if there could be a better way to solve the crisis. Whatever and whomever we can use to bloody Russia is the longer term plan and where our real interest lies.

Fathertime!

And RESIST is better than REBEL? How?  Resist who? Come on, complete the sentence! RESIST Russian occupation? REBEL Russian dictator?

There is no better way to solve the crisis at this moment. Putin is not prepared to let Ukraine go and Ukrainians not prepared to be under Russia once again. Bullet in schizophrenic's forehead will be helpful to solve crisis.

[lordtiberius]

That logically means there is also no involvment of Russia in Ukraine.

You talk logic?   

[fathertime]

And RESIST is better than REBEL? How?  Resist who? Come on, complete the sentence! RESIST Russian occupation? REBEL Russian dictator?
 .

Who said RESIST was BETTER than REBEL?   I think it is a more accurate way of describing what is happening.    Resist who?  The Russians and the Ukraianians that support the separatist movement. ...who else?

There is no better way to solve the crisis at this moment. Putin is not prepared to let Ukraine go and Ukrainians not prepared to be under Russia once again. Bullet in schizophrenic's forehead will be helpful to solve crisis.

Well I'd say it is more likely that the bullet will wind up in the head of the leader of Ukraine, than Russia's leader... 




Perhaps you think the fighting is the best way, and maybe it is...but it is going to be bloody and possibly never ending so it would seem negotiating something that works for both countries would be better....and if it still truly isn't possible then the alternatives narrow....of course it is up to Ukrainian representatives to decide.


Fathertime!   

[BillyB]

Perhaps you think the fighting is the best way, and maybe it is.

Fighting is probably the only way this thing gets settled. Putin pretends to talk peace and wants to negotiate but Putin will only allow peace if the Ukrainian government gives the east so much autonomy Putin can rig the election and claim the east as his own. Why is Putin involved in any peace talks? Because the smart people know he's in charge of the rebels in Ukraine. Things can end or escalate on his word.


How can Ukraine negotiate with Putin who stole a piece of their land already and are sending in military hardware to kill their troops? How many people here can talk nicely to someone who steals a piece of their property and smile at the negotiating table knowing that person wants to steal more property?

[lordtiberius]

A truce and a peace treaty are two different things.  Why not get a truce?  Time is on Ukraine's side not Russia's.

[BillyB]

Why not get a truce? 

Does Putin want a truce or even peace with Ukraine remaining intact? I don't think so.

[GQBlues]

The link was not from youtube.  We don't know if the inidviduals are Ukrainian or Russian.  All we know is, they are from the region, evident from their accents.  The manner in which they speak tells me it is not rehearsed/staged, but real.  It has nothing to do with them being from Ukraine....

LOL! Seriously now Boethius. I bet you can also lay an ear against any ground and be able to tell me the full names of the last 100 folks that walked past it, won't you? You should be on the Jimmy Kimmel show.

You believed Obama WAS the TRUTH way back in 2008 that you even bought his book...somehow now you'll tell me you can 'trust' a stranger on YouTube by the way he speaks? C'mon. I'm neither a loser, a MOBer or a dolt from Wisconsin.

...NATO has always stated it is monitoring the situation, and has since Russia started amassing troops on Ukraine's borders.  IIRC (I do, I am just being polite), Putin claimed there were no Russian forces in Crimea.  After the illegal annexation of the region, he admitted Russian troops had indeed been dispatched there....

NATO, yeah...

Yes. All 22,000 of them. Silly of Putin to deny that. But then again, sillier still are folks who's been buying into the narrative, too. 

...NATO has access to extensive sophisticated satellite imagery.  There is no need for them to have anyone on the ground to know what is going on in the region.[/font]

LOL. Sophisticated satellite images? You don't mean the one they bought from Digital Globe now, do you? Because unless the CIA or NATO came over to your home to show them to you, Digital Globe's imagery had been the only one made available so far.

Look, NATO have *zero* business in this conflict. Zip, Nada, Zilch...at least not yet. *Interest* is a whole other matter.

After all, Hillary had been trying to make this happen since back in 2009 (that we now about) Likely even further back when Slick was still in Monica's Oval and we were too busy playing 'kill-a-Serb' in Yugoslavia) roughly the same time she was handing Lavrov that ridiculous red buttoned 'Reset' fiasco. NATO membership was reinforced even more strongly by what happened in Georgia the prior year. Except in 2009 they were hoping to get ride through Tymoshenko's presidential run of 2010.

Why do you think her prison release was an integral component in the AA's condition, which was the major block as to why Yanu didn't immediately inked the deal despite literally already agreeing to it?

Over 2,000 dead, thousands injured/wounded, hundreds of thousand displaced, cities damaged and blown and you folks still follow the narrative.

From December 2009, 1:15 PM, Washington DC

SECURITY ASSURANCES AND NATO

7. (C) Secretary Clinton reiterated that the United States stood behind the Budapest Memorandum security assurances and that these assurances had not changed with the expiration of the START Treaty.  She emphasized that the United States envisioned multiple pathways to NATO membership.  The United States, however, had received mixed messages from Ukraine during its presidential campaign, and Ukraine's friends wondered whether Ukrainians really wanted NATO membership.  The United States continued to support Ukraine's eventual membership in NATO, but the Secretary reminded Poroshenko that all aspirants must meet NATO standards. She noted that during the December 3 NATO-Ukraine Commission meeting, Allies commended Ukraine on the finalization of its first Annual National Program and urged Ukraine to make further progress through its 2010 program.
 
8. (C) Poroshenko was pleased by the U.S.-Russia statement reaffirming the Budapest Memorandum security assurances.  He proposed bilateral consultations to establish new security "guarantees" for Ukraine, saying such consultations were needed to avoid an incident similar to the Russia-Georgia war.  Poroshenko lamented that Montenegro and Bosnia, which had not voluntarily given up nuclear weapons, were on their way to NATO membership.  Ukraine felt that NATO had demanded greater reforms from it than from other countries.  He claimed that both Prime Minister Tymoshenko and opposition leader Yanukovych had agreed to avoid raising NATO in their campaigns....

ENERGY SECURITY

9. (C) Poroshenko stated it was vital that the EU invite Ukraine to join the European Energy Community at the December 18 ministerial in Zagreb.  The Secretary agreed that energy security was essential.  Ambassador Morningstar said that he had actively lobbied for Ukraine's inclusion in the Energy Community and would be happy to make another approach to the EU.  (Morningstar later spoke with European Commission Pielbalgs to voice continued support for Ukrainian membership.)  Morningstar noted that the EU was considering a compromise agreement that would involve a two-step approach to Ukraine's membership. 

He noted some progress on energy issues, e.g., progress with Russia on gas issues at Yalta, but emphasized that this was short-
term; what was needed was long-term reform.  The United States was ready and willing to help Ukraine modernize its gas sector, increase energy efficiency and improve the investment climate, if Kyiv's commitment was there. The Secretary stressed that Ukraine could boost its independence and sovereignty by increasing its energy independence.


We don't have a hand in this illegal government overthrow, you say? Well, WE apparently, will "never let a good crisis go to waste"

[GQBlues]

...blah, blah blah...
The simple fact is that you never served your country, either in the Phillipines or in the United States, by your own admission so you would have absolutely no clue of the human drama playing out.  You are a guy who sits at your computer for many hours.  We wonder whether such activities make up for not having anything to do at home....blah, blah

OY! The dramatics! I'm just quoting a portion I thought was worth my time to respond to your wazoo post...

First, an English & history lessons. The proper spelling is, *Philippines*, not 'Phillipines. The country was named after King Philip II of Azturias who later became King Philip II of Spain.

Secondly, this is how I served, and will continue to serve *my* country:

I am and had been chiefly responsible for, or had a hand in, or collaborated on the development, renovation and improvements of the following: hospitals, schools, public infrastructures i.e. utilities (water, sewer, storm drain systems, common trenches (gas, communication/cable/electrical), roads, highways/freeways, bridges, ports, landfills, reclamation systems for local, state and federal projects.

I had built industrial complexes, commercial complexes, residential communities, single-family homes, high-density / multi dwelling residential buildings, parks, golf courses, entertainment sites like Disneyland, Universal, Knotts, the Getty Museum..coastal developments and improvements i.e. seawalls, jetties, piers, ports....

I've done work in LAX, Sta. Monica Airport, Van Nuys Airport, & Ports of Long Beach. I've done *classified* work in various federal/military bases: 29 Palms, Camp Roberts, Vandenburg AF...

I've done work as far away as Daytona Beach Raceway Florida to Virginia's Banta Books to Oklahoma's Frito Lays and all over California.

What I haven't done is gone to a foreign country with the SOLE INTENT of killing/bombing/murdering/plunder/rape its men, women and children; solely on the virtue their politics had fallen out of favor with ours.

Your silly *generous attitude* theory is flat-out stupid. Why don't you tell me exactly HOW YOUR service benefited Iraq? Tell me how exactly *our* participation in the killing fields of millions benefited the citizens of Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam? Iran? The citizens of Yugoslavia? Colombia, El Salvador, Honduras, nations of Africa, Libya?....

Dude, you're much too dense to even remotely understand WHY we are perpetually at zones of conflict. When you peel off your fuzzy blinders one of these days and finally realize all these are actually nothing more than an overrated, modernized narrative, media falsely glorified COLONIALISM.

We control territories, we control commerce. ONE for you NINETEEN for me. I take your stuff, you buy my stuff. I hire your cheap labor, you buy my pricey label. You don't do as I say, I either slap you sanction to deprive your people, or just simply bomb the fcok out of you - policy.

So in the end, unlike you and super-size-it-with-extra-friesLT, I am much PROUDER in the way *I SERVE*, and continue to serve, my country...

 

[GQBlues]

Although technically to be correct, the word 'talk' should be replaced with the phrase 'wear out a keyboard'. BTW why hasn't our friend posted a response already, usually he is a lot quicker than that. Phone line down at his home? Or maybe jone's post really did hit a raw nerve with our friend?

Simple, because unlike the lot of you, I have a life to enjoy on weekends.

Ta-da!

[GQBlues]

Not all trucks were full, some had very small load in....

I can't understand why there's much ado about partially loaded trucks in this saga.

The total weight of the humanitarian goods supposed to total to 2,000 tons. If these trucks are anything like the semis we have here at home, it likely have the capacity to carry 20 tons/truck (fully loaded). 2,000 tons will mean a total of 100 FULLY LOADED trucks.

Now, if I was in charge of dispatching these trucks in a heavily conflicted zone, I would do as they did. Partially load the trucks, or even have an accompanying 'empty' trucks.

Why?

Consideration of the following: Time is of the essence. You need to get 'there' and be 'out' ASAP. A 'hot-zone'.

1. It'll be much easier to unload/load trucks in the event of break-downs. This was why they had a driver and a rider in the beginning.
2. In the event one or two, or more gets' hit by the fighting, intentionally or otherwise, you don't suffer 'mass' waste.
3. The destination is a 'city'. They don't have the luxury of a 'distribution warehouse' where they can unload everything in a lone central depot. The Kiev government either doesn't differentiate between hostile or civilians to begin with when they bomb the city, or are doing it on purpose like they did with the State Administration building not too long ago. So I doubt anyone can expect these civilians to be walking blocks and citywide fetching supplies of food, water and medicine.

Thus, many of the trucks likely various appointed/designated points of delivery in the city which could be 5 - 10 points of distribution.

...Earlier in news today came the following:
http://24tv.ua/home/showSingleNews.do?rosiyani_vivozyat_na_vantazhivkah_gumkonvoyu_naboyi_i_tehniku_z_ukrayinski h_zavodiv__rnbo&objectId=477459

MissA, I hope you understand the meaning of the word 'accuse'. Unless there is substantial and irrefutable evidence to support an accusation, you literally have *nothing*. The allegations is null and void.

IF, it turns out the Russians did in fact gathered *sensitive* military and security materials borne out of their business with Ukraine before, especially knowing who had been behind and in strong support of the coup, IMO, they are entitled to it.

As for 'accusation', the Kiev government accused the rebels of bombing the State Administration building that killed civilians not too long ago despite knowing full well they did it themselves.

Which begs the question, how do you like a government who would *lie* like that in their quest to start anew?

Do you even know your government were the ones who did it?

[missAmeno]

I can't understand why there's much ado about partially loaded trucks in this saga.

....GQB's Saga....

Do I have to explain anything else?

MissA, I hope you understand the meaning of the word 'accuse'.

Of course I do

IF, it turns out the Russians did in fact gathered *sensitive* military and security materials borne out of their business with Ukraine before, especially knowing who had been behind and in strong support of the coup, IMO, they are entitled to it.

Here you have lost me on 'gathered *sensitive* military and security materials'. I haven't posted anything about gathering materials, I posted about accusation of stealing factory equipment to manufacture certain military equipment. Since when Russia entitled to rob Ukrainian factories?
 

As for 'accusation', the Kiev government accused the rebels of bombing the State Administration building that killed civilians not too long ago despite knowing full well they did it themselves.

Which begs the question, how do you like a government who would *lie* like that in their quest to start anew?

Do you even know your government were the ones who did it?

Post more specific details about which State Administration building you are talking about and I will reply. It is impossible to give any answer to general statements as the one you did above.


By the way perhaps you also wold like to see this photo (hopefully you follow news enough to recognize face on this photo as well as able to understand where that photo is made)

[Boethius]

LOL! Seriously now Boethius. I bet you can also lay an ear against any ground and be able to tell me the full names of the last 100 folks that walked past it, won't you? You should be on the Jimmy Kimmel show.

You believed Obama WAS the TRUTH way back in 2008 that you even bought his book...somehow now you'll tell me you can 'trust' a stranger on YouTube by the way he speaks? C'mon. I'm neither a loser, a MOBer or a dolt from Wisconsin.


NATO, yeah...

Yes. All 22,000 of them. Silly of Putin to deny that. But then again, sillier still are folks who's been buying into the narrative, too. 

LOL. Sophisticated satellite images? You don't mean the one they bought from Digital Globe now, do you? Because unless the CIA or NATO came over to your home to show them to you, Digital Globe's imagery had been the only one made available so far.

Look, NATO have *zero* business in this conflict. Zip, Nada, Zilch...at least not yet. *Interest* is a whole other matter.

After all, Hillary had been trying to make this happen since back in 2009 (that we now about) Likely even further back when Slick was still in Monica's Oval and we were too busy playing 'kill-a-Serb' in Yugoslavia) roughly the same time she was handing Lavrov that ridiculous red buttoned 'Reset' fiasco. NATO membership was reinforced even more strongly by what happened in Georgia the prior year. Except in 2009 they were hoping to get ride through Tymoshenko's presidential run of 2010.

Why do you think her prison release was an integral component in the AA's condition, which was the major block as to why Yanu didn't immediately inked the deal despite literally already agreeing to it?

Over 2,000 dead, thousands injured/wounded, hundreds of thousand displaced, cities damaged and blown and you folks still follow the narrative.

From December 2009, 1:15 PM, Washington DC

SECURITY ASSURANCES AND NATO

7. (C) Secretary Clinton reiterated that the United States stood behind the Budapest Memorandum security assurances and that these assurances had not changed with the expiration of the START Treaty.  She emphasized that the United States envisioned multiple pathways to NATO membership.  The United States, however, had received mixed messages from Ukraine during its presidential campaign, and Ukraine's friends wondered whether Ukrainians really wanted NATO membership.  The United States continued to support Ukraine's eventual membership in NATO, but the Secretary reminded Poroshenko that all aspirants must meet NATO standards. She noted that during the December 3 NATO-Ukraine Commission meeting, Allies commended Ukraine on the finalization of its first Annual National Program and urged Ukraine to make further progress through its 2010 program.
 
8. (C) Poroshenko was pleased by the U.S.-Russia statement reaffirming the Budapest Memorandum security assurances.  He proposed bilateral consultations to establish new security "guarantees" for Ukraine, saying such consultations were needed to avoid an incident similar to the Russia-Georgia war.  Poroshenko lamented that Montenegro and Bosnia, which had not voluntarily given up nuclear weapons, were on their way to NATO membership.  Ukraine felt that NATO had demanded greater reforms from it than from other countries.  He claimed that both Prime Minister Tymoshenko and opposition leader Yanukovych had agreed to avoid raising NATO in their campaigns....

ENERGY SECURITY

9. (C) Poroshenko stated it was vital that the EU invite Ukraine to join the European Energy Community at the December 18 ministerial in Zagreb.  The Secretary agreed that energy security was essential.  Ambassador Morningstar said that he had actively lobbied for Ukraine's inclusion in the Energy Community and would be happy to make another approach to the EU.  (Morningstar later spoke with European Commission Pielbalgs to voice continued support for Ukrainian membership.)  Morningstar noted that the EU was considering a compromise agreement that would involve a two-step approach to Ukraine's membership. 

He noted some progress on energy issues, e.g., progress with Russia on gas issues at Yalta, but emphasized that this was short-
term; what was needed was long-term reform.  The United States was ready and willing to help Ukraine modernize its gas sector, increase energy efficiency and improve the investment climate, if Kyiv's commitment was there. The Secretary stressed that Ukraine could boost its independence and sovereignty by increasing its energy independence.


We don't have a hand in this illegal government overthrow, you say? Well, WE apparently, will "never let a good crisis go to waste"

I still believe Obama is the truth.  No president achieves all he wishes, and he faced some almost insurmountable problems.


GQ, you don't speak the language, you haven't been to the region, and you have never interacted with Ukrainian peasants.  I have, and that is what tells me it is not faked.

[GQBlues]

..Do I have to explain anything else?..

Yes. Because from that picture you posted doesn't tell me anything other than a silly label saying it's ammunition. These trucks were at the border a FULL WEEK and had both the Ukrainians/ICRC inspecting them.

...Of course I do..

Good. Then tell me exactly what it means and how it applied to my assertion.

...Here you have lost me on 'gathered *sensitive* military and security materials'. I haven't posted anything about gathering materials, I posted about accusation of stealing factory equipment to manufacture certain military equipment. Since when Russia entitled to rob Ukrainian factories?...

Radars is but one of the equipment being accused of 'trucking' back to Russia. The eastern region of Ukraine had been manufacturing a lot of Russian weaponry and technology. These are classified, intelligence material. As to whether or not the Russians took them back is still left for evidential due process. and Like I said, if they did, then I can't honestly say I blame them because the truth of the matter is, had it been USA, UK, France, Israel, etc...they will undoubtedly do the exact same thing.

...Post more specific details about which State Administration building you are talking about and I will reply. It is impossible to give any answer to general statements as the one you did above...

No it isn't. How many 'STATE ADMINISTRATION BUILDING are there in Luhansk? You're just being coy to avoid a direct line of questioning.

So answer the questions.

...By the way perhaps you also wold like to see this photo (hopefully you follow news enough to recognize face on this photo as well as able to understand where that photo is made)...

I don't. You ask me to be specific but you like remaining vague.

You need to remember. Military advisers, strategists, foreign fighters, or whatever else you'd like to introduce in this conflict *swings both ways*. You can't condemned one but not the other. Eastern Ukraine largely voted for what was the presiding president in 2010, which was illegally removed. That is what you need to view this entire conflict.

I am amazed at how ordinary Ukrainian citizens just bought into the whole *investigation result* on who was behind the Kiev sniper attacks.

[GQBlues]

I still believe Obama is the truth...

Therein lies my point.

...No president achieves all he wishes, and he faced some almost insurmountable problems....

Insurmountable problems? He had the majority of congress at his bidding at the start of his administration. There hasn't been a president who trampled our Constitution in the way this dufus has, Boethius. I doubt the IRS, VA, Benghazi et al scandals can hardly be termed 'insurmountable problems'.

...GQ, you don't speak the language, you haven't been to the region, and you have never interacted with Ukrainian peasants.  I have, and that is what tells me it is not faked....

Riiight...

I can speak other languages than just English and if I saw anyone speaking what I speak doesn't automatically say I can ascertain whether truth or lies are being conveyed. English speakers are in knots in our court system and they had to rely on lie detectors, court deliberations and other scientific means to gauge truths from lies.

Ferguson's recent eyewitness's testimony of 'Hands up, don't shoot' BS is a good example of this.

You either need to market your skills, appear in some 'wonderful world of the unexplained' or simple admit you're wildly stretching by saying you can ascertain truths from lies from someone who you don't know speaking from a silly youtube video.

I can't believe the lengths some of you would go to maintain silly narratives.

[GQBlues]

At a meeting arranged by the chief of police in Starobilsk (97 km north of Luhansk city) on 20 August, a man claimed that he had been severely beaten the previous day in Polovynkyne (88 km north of Luhansk) by members of a Ukrainian volunteer battalion. He said members of the 24th Aidar Battalion – already at the centre of accusations of human rights abuses in the northern Luhansk region (see SMM daily reports of 8 August,of 11 August, 14 August) – after detaining him at a checkpoint, had accused him of separatism and had threatened to kill him, unless his wife paid over USD 10,000. She did so, whereupon he was released the same day, he said. The SMM observed that the man’s head was heavily swollen, bloody and bruised and that he had bruises and smaller wounds on his arms and legs.

Rest of the report here: http://www.osce.org/ukraine-smm/122920

[jone]

Interesting article today about the way Russia is playing this at home:

http://wpolityce.pl/swiat/210801-rosjanie-pochowali-swoich-zolnierzy-poleglych-na-ukrainie-chcieli-zachowac-tajemnice

[Muzh]

The old KGB Agent, Putin, is scared sh&tless that the same revolution that happened in Kyiv will happen in Russia.  If, in ten years time (and probably sooner now that Ukraine is polarized and the West is sympathetic) Ukraine's standard of living bounces to a new, never before seen level, such will put the final nail in the coffin or Russian hegemony.   His only hope on maintaining power will come with the increased controlling of his population.

Reporting from the front, this may be closer than you think. My outlaws have a cousin who lives in Omsk. He would repeat the propaganda he saw on Russian TV and would tell my outlaws they were over reacting and all the stuff my outlaws told him they experienced, he said they must be lying because they don't see anything like that in Russian TV.


Well, one of his neighbors in Omsk is creating a big stink. (He may be asking for a death sentence for all I know.) The neighbors have a son in the military and they went to visit him at his base. When they got there, their son was nowhere to be found. They went to the base commander and demanded to know where was their son. "Oh well, he went missing or something like that." The father, who was also military got on the commander's face at ripped him a new one telling him that if his son "went missing or something like that" he is breaking the law and that is punishable with jail time so what the fcuk is he doing about it. They left the base and no news from the son. That was a month ago. Now they are questioning all the bullshit news media they see on TV and are expecting the worse as they feel their son was killed in Ukraine and they may never see his body.


As I was told, this guy is beyond himself and may do some stoopid shit that we will never hear on Russian TV.


Needless to say, the zombies are NOT telling my outlaws they are making up stories of shit happening in Ukraine anymore. This time, they are listening. Including the father of the young soldier.