Wedding Canceled

[Sculpto]

. The gift is that of the receiver to do as they wish, return it or do something else. Once given, it is no longer the giver's option.

Exactly.. and this is what has led me to wonder what the whole story is.

[Faux Pas]

FP, apparently the norm varies with the locale. Boethius's more specific 'rule' applies here in Italy, too.

The jilted fiancée keeping the ring is considered a rightful compensation for 'damages' incurred into , IINM our legislation never contemplated 'breach of promise'.

I've seen it go a number of ways. The Dear Abby etiquette is okay as a rule of thumb but, from what I have witnessed break ups/offs are rarely amicable and all etiquette flies out the window. Personally, once I presented a ring I wouldn't want it back. The OP's situation clearly has some extenuating circumstances but I wouldn't have asked for it back either. For me, a gift is a gift.

[Sculpto]

I've seen it go a number of ways. The Dear Abby etiquette is okay as a rule of thumb but, from what I have witnessed break ups/offs are rarely amicable and all etiquette flies out the window. Personally, once I presented a ring I wouldn't want it back. The OP's situation clearly has some extenuating circumstances but I wouldn't have asked for it back either. For me, a gift is a gift.

Requesting the ring back would be seen as the ultimate in greed and poor taste.  And then afterwards she mocked him.. hmmm

[kievstar]

My experience with RW in Kiev is engagement ring is a gift and not to be returned.  I think this is different than AW.  In the Elena model hand book (the former owner of the agency who wrote a book) - she stated any gift given should not be expected to be returned by a RW otherwise do not give the gift to RW in the first place.  Foreign men may think this is strange but this is the culture in Russia.  Gifts are not to be returned.

The 50,000 usd contract may not hold up in USA court but there are a lot of scum bag RM in USA who would enforce this contract for her for 50%.  They would enforce it by threatening you and your family.  This is no joke and has happened to other men. You did the right thing by not signing.  This contract was not her worrying about coming to the USA it was about providing a meal ticket to her.  

When I sold cars in Ukraine, it was stated several times to me that RM would show up at my door in USA if things went wrong.  One time they came to verify I lived where I stated just to make sure they could trust me.  These were RM living in USA.  

My advice is not worry about the money.  What has been spent is spent.  You can write on the internet all you want but if she is listed in agencies many men will visit her - because most men who visit do no research on the internet.  

You want revenge hire a man to take her on a trip to Dominican Republic.  Than have this man steal her passport and all her belongings and leave the country.  Also, cancel her airplane ticket home.  



 

[Sculpto]

You want revenge hire a man to take her on a trip to Dominican Republic.  Than have this man steal her passport and all her belongings and leave the country.  Also, cancel her airplane ticket home.

I LOVE THAT!  hahahaha!  you are EVIL! 

[GregfromGa]

I like the way you think Kievstar. GB is a very nice guy and I just cant see him pulling this one off. Me on the other hand well I'd probably try it or either just pay someone to have her dismembered and dumped in the Dniper at various points while being weighted down ...I'm certainly not piling on my friend GB but in the future to avoid crap like this, just dont give a ring until you're married. Spend as much time as you possibly can in Ukraine with her and her family. On Friday and Saturday nights, she should be at home. On any night, she should be at home or on the way home.  I was lucky because my wife never did discos and clubs ever. If you're engaged your wife to be shouldnt be doing them as well. It's pretty sad the way this whole thing turned out for GB. He's a great guy and will one day make some lucky girl a wonderful husband. Hang in there buddy.

Also I'm certainly not saying that GB's girl was not at home when he called. We never discussed that.Discos were never mentioned as well. I just thought I would throw in that little tidbit for free. Obviously something was going right because dates were set, tickets bought, etc etc...

[kievstar]

I communicated with GB before I met my wife on a blind date. I never talked on the phone or saw her prior to the meeting  GB said nice things and I made the visit.   He is a nice guy. 

[Andrew]

You want revenge hire a man to take her on a trip to Dominican Republic.  Than have this man steal her passport and all her belongings and leave the country.  Also, cancel her airplane ticket home. 

LOVELY! Absolutely BRILLIANT! If my relationship goes south in a bad way, I'll be pm'ing you for some great ideas 

[GoodBrew]

Requesting the ring back would be seen as the ultimate in greed and poor taste.  And then afterwards she mocked him.. hmmm

I last saw her wearing the engagement ring the first weekend in June on Skype webcam.  She delivered some refund money to Mila just before I arrived in Kharkov June 25 and I was told that she was not wearing it when they met.  This was prior to me formally requesting that she return it.  Chances are that it was long gone before my arrival in Kharkov.

Greg and k-star, thanks for the kind words.  And Greg, point taken on any future jewelry purchase.  I started this thread hoping that someone might stumble upon it and spare himself some grief dealing with Anna.  However, other life events have occurred which are making it difficult to concentrate and remember all her questionable behavior and detail what happened.  A week prior to the whole MC fallout a lifelong friend was diagnosed with and almost died from an aneurysm.  He survived with just a little short term memory loss and is now resting at home.  Now I have been told that a close relative has lung and brain cancer.  I just don't have it in me right now to continue discussing what some hussy did to me and quite frankly my troubles are nothing compared to those of my friend and aunt.  This is as good a time as any to take an extended break from fSUW and, for a while at least, RWD.             

[Sculpto]

GB, best of luck to you and yours.  I really am sorry about what happened to you.  Please don't take my analysis as criticism.. just trying to dissect things to make what you went through more valuable to future readers and maybe yourself. 

[Whynot]

GB -

Very sorry to read your tale of woe but thanks for sharing - it'll help keep us newbie's on track.

The lessons i've gleaned from this are:
1) Be wary if you've not been introduced to the family fairly early-on in the piece
2) Spend extended time (as much as possible) with her before taking the leap and getting engaged
3) Be on the lookout for (but not paranoid about) 'untruths'
4) Early removal of a profile(s) from websites is a good sign; and the opposite could be a cause for concern

Anybody care to build on/debate these?

Thanks again GB and hope you meet a decent woman soon!

WN?

[sweetpea]

Lets ask the ladies.. in the event of a breakup.. is the lady obligated to return the ring?
 

Yes, if the break up is mutual, she has to return the ring. When a guy breaks up with a girl, it depends. Normal guy would not drag a ring off her finger the second after break up. It happened to me  , and it was pretty horrible. Plus, I really do not need a ring if nothing worked between us, he can keep it.

[Faux Pas]

GB -

Very sorry to read your tale of woe but thanks for sharing - it'll help keep us newbie's on track.

The lessons i've gleaned from this are:
1) Be wary if you've not been introduced to the family fairly early-on in the piece
2) Spend extended time (as much as possible) with her before taking the leap and getting engaged
3) Be on the lookout for (but not paranoid about) 'untruths'
4) Early removal of a profile(s) from websites is a good sign; and the opposite could be a cause for concern

Anybody care to build on/debate these?

Thanks again GB and hope you meet a decent woman soon!

WN?

Those are good for "rule of thumb" but not hard and fast truths. Each is certainly a flag but, none mean that a guy is on his way to scammersville or need for paranoia. When one sees two, three or all these and more, it is certainly time to take stock in the situation logically, which is very difficult to do with your penis.

I reaffirm this approach has to be in the same way and manner that you'd date a lady in your hometown (with appropriate adjustments of course). If you'd date a liar or a lady once or twice before engaging marriage at home, don't hesitate to do it in the FSU. 

[Chillidog]

If you'd date a lady once or twice before engaging marriage at home, don't hesitate to do it in the FSU. 

then I'm behind schedule with my FSU woman  

[tfcrew]

We have a member that stood up and made their report.
All-be-it a disappointment.
I think it was brave and informative.

I don't agree that 'Bolshivism' is a contributing factor in the Russian culture any more.
My wife is convinced that since the break-up of the Soviets...life is actualy more chaotic than ever.
Odd that this Anna girl is listed on Latina dating sites but folks take pictures from other angencies and manipulate what they might.
No need to be critical of the responces here and there.
No matter where some one is from...it's a crapshoot.
I threw the dice myself and got lucky.
Good luck to all...........................
Karl

[dobradavid]

Sandro is correct.  Traditionally, engagement rings were never given in Ukraine.  This is imported from Western culture, and Ukrainians often do see it as a way of fleecing foreigners. 

In Western culture, if a woman breaks an engagement, she should return the ring.  If the man breaks the engagement, the woman is free to keep the ring.

In US law  -an engagement ring is part of a "contract" leading to marriage. If the contract is not consumated, the  ring reverts to the giver (unless it can't be found). Quite a few ladies seem to have trouble with this.

[Misha]

In US law  -an engagement ring is part of a "contract" leading to marriage. If the contract is not consumated, the  ring reverts to the giver (unless it can't be found). Quite a few ladies seem to have trouble with this.

I did not buy my wife a diamond engagement ring. She didn't mind as it was not part of her culture. Now, however, we are upgrading our rings this summer after three years and she will wear her old wedding ring on her right hand and her new rings on her left. This fall, we want to go back to the church where we were married to have our new rings blessed and to commemorate our three years together as husband and wife. The easiest solution IMHO: do not give a ring unless you would not mind losing it as it is not central to Russian culture anyways. It is a gift, and gifts should not be given if you fear losing them 

[Daveman]

In US law  -an engagement ring is part of a "contract" leading to marriage. If the contract is not consumated, the  ring reverts to the giver (unless it can't be found). Quite a few ladies seem to have trouble with this.

I have neither seen nor heard of such a "law", however, I must admit my legal education is based upon watching Judge Judy deal with the intellectually challenged of the world.  She has mentioned the "moral rightness" of returning an engagement ring, mentioning the custom 'who breaks the engagement', but legally viewed it as a "gift" -- though I do seem to remember one or two cases where she ordered the return of the ring....  if there is such a law, it must be buried somewhere on the books of a few states otherwise I am positive there would be many more guys in court getting rings back.

[Kuna]

I did not buy my wife a diamond engagement ring. She didn't mind as it was not part of her culture. Now, however, we are upgrading our rings this summer after three years and she will wear her old wedding ring on her right hand and her new rings on her left. This fall, we want to go back to the church where we were married to have our new rings blessed and to commemorate our three years together as husband and wife. The easiest solution IMHO: do not give a ring unless you would not mind losing it as it is not central to Russian culture anyways. It is a gift, and gifts should not be given if you fear losing them 

Sorry for the "off topic" but are you getting remarried in a RU Orthodox Church???  If so, can you invite us?     We were remarried earlier this year and the RU Orthodox service is very grand (compared to a Lutheran marriage anyway).  If you've got a big head prepare for the crown to cut in a little though!     I came out of the church looking like my head had been bound up in fencing wire for 48 hours.

[Misha]

Sorry for the "off topic" but are you getting remarried in a RU Orthodox Church???

No, we were already married in the RU Orthodox Church, but we want to have the new rings blessed and we want to say hello to the priest that married us. But, you are invited anyways

If you've got a big head prepare for the crown to cut in a little though!     I came out of the church looking like my head had been bound up in fencing wire for 48 hours.

In our ceremony, the crowns were held over our heads by out witnesses. Given that mine was shorter than me, his arms were quite tired by the end of the ceremony

[tfcrew]

I have neither seen nor heard of such a "law ...

Neither have I, but a search on that turned up some weird cases...including a married man who gave his mistress an engagement ring [some people]
Usually, these rings wind up getting sold off for a fraction of the value.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1GZAZ_en&q=law+returning+engagement+ring&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

[Daveman]

Neither have I, but a search on that turned up some weird cases...including a married man who gave his mistress an engagement ring [some people]
Usually, these rings wind up getting sold off for a fraction of the value.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1W1GZAZ_en&q=law+returning+engagement+ring&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

Yeah, some interesting cases for sure. AND, looks like Dobradavid is correct in that there ARE some laws on the books pertaining to various aspects.. as well as different possible perspective applications.  Interesting reads for sure.. whoda thunk it?

interesting quick read
http://writ.news.findlaw.com/grossman/20011023.html

[SANDRO43]

I think the moral lesson to be garnered from this discussion is:

NEVER EVER GIVE A DIAMOND ENGAGEMENT RING TO A FSUW 

Because:
1. FSUW do not appreciate its sentimental value but, on the other hand,
2. They, like any other W, do appreciate its $/€ value .

And the unsentimental b!tches may also have the nerve to complain about it afterwards

At 22 I got engaged to my (ex-)wife-to-be and gave her a ring with a small (1/3 carat, IIRC) but very nice diamond I had bought from a reputed jeweller in central Milan, their shop a few hundred yards from our Duomo cathedral, recommended by a wealthy friend's mother who was into jewelry - it being my 1st, and last , engagement ring, I was naturally clueless about the whole business and had sought her advice.

Years after our divorce, I was informed by my former SIL that her sister was mad at me because, having given the ring to a local jeweller to clean it up as she was wont to do periodically, he had informed her that the stone was of little value . What had probably happened was that a previous jeweller had replaced my diamond with another of much lower quality, and the silly b!tch never noticed his sleight of hand.

[dobradavid]

I have neither seen nor heard of such a "law", however, I must admit my legal education is based upon watching Judge Judy deal with the intellectually challenged of the world.  She has mentioned the "moral rightness" of returning an engagement ring, mentioning the custom 'who breaks the engagement', but legally viewed it as a "gift" -- though I do seem to remember one or two cases where she ordered the return of the ring....  if there is such a law, it must be buried somewhere on the books of a few states otherwise I am positive there would be many more guys in court getting rings back.

You gotta go and look, dude. 

If the engagement is over, state law decides who keeps the engagement ring.

The engagement is over. In addition to the sorrow, the heartbroken must deal with the question of whether the engagement ring need to be returned--along with the deposits left with the caterer, the florist, and the dressmaker.

State courts around the nation that have considered the issue -- whether a bride can keep the engagement ring or whether she must return it - have reached different conclusions.

When Is a Gift a Gift?
Courts generally treat the engagement ring as a gift, from the donor (the person who gave the ring) to the donee (the person who received it). To be considered a legal gift, three things must be present: the donor's intent to give the ring as a gift, the donor's delivery of it to the donee, and the donee's acceptance of the item. If the person to whom the ring was given can show all three elements, a court will consider the ring to be a gift.

Conditional Gifts
However, the majority of courts also consider such a gift to be a conditional one. That means that, until some future event occurs, the gift isn't final; if that event does not occur, then the donor has the right to get the gift back.

http://family.findlaw.com/marriage/marriage-more/broken-engagement.html

[dobradavid]

I think the moral lesson to be garnered from this discussion is:

NEVER EVER GIVE A DIAMOND ENGAGEMENT RING TO A FSUW 

See I disagree - FSU women are well aware of the western custom. OTOH - I won't spend more than a few hundred dollars. I agree that "2-3 months salary" is marketing BS.