BiilyB's 'research' Trench's 'fawning admiration' re RW's TR to Odesa

[GQBlues]

Using public Transport in FSU nations does not carry the stigma attached in some US cities and I have never been bothered in BY, UA, RU on a bus or metro ....

True, mainly for someone 'looking like you'.

With a high degree of 'nationalism in-country', I cannot, and those as dark if not darker skinned as I am, can lay claim to such bliss. It's true in most central European countries I've spent time in as well like CzechR, Slovakia and Hungary notably.

[ML]

As for Chinese (or Asian) in our society - they are generally the least criminal offender . . .

But for those who are criminals . . . aren't they  some of the most vicious of all?  i.e. the Asian gang members.

[GQBlues]

But for those who are criminals . . . aren't they  some of the most vicious of all?  i.e. the Asian gang members.

The only ones I am aware of here in LA proper are the Vietnamese youths of Santa Ana/Anaheim (little Saigon). Even the silly Bahala Na gang I once heard about. I say silly because these guys are one domineering Filipina woman away from getting their phsyt together.

But with only less than 6% of the US population, pros and cons, good v bad, the overall effect of Asian immigrants in the US is overwhelmingly 'positive' for the small slice they represent.

[BillyB]

I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) )))))))))))))

I'm glad you enjoyed reading it.  FSU women enjoyed it but "some" Western men couldn't handle it. I still have haters following me around.


I don't know if you read my update thread but here it is below. Posted some photos and been married almost 6 years now to the same girl from the report.


http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=19800.0

[Jumper]

Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.


PS: Could you please catch me up on one thing: is Trenchcoat BillyB's gf/wife? I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) ))))))))))))) - Ok, got it, Trenchcoat is not the RW who's writing the report, then can somebody give me a link to the report which is discussed, pls? )))))

Hi Nat!
 The report this,side bar is pulled from is rw_recruiter's trip report titled-  Pearl.of the Black Sea

[wallm]

Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.

In Ukraine, developers get paid that much? How? Unless they do remote work for foreign based companies, I don't see how those salaries are justified in that economy where some physicians make as little as 5000UAH/month. I manage a team and we have one developer based out of Krakow, Poland in our office there and he doesn't get 6 or 8K USD and he is a damn good senior developer.

[Boethius]

Oh, come on! I know mothers of two who knit toys and sell them on the Internet to European customers, making a lot of money, who give classes on Skype and make decent money, I know people cooking festive food for a lot of money, and there are a lot of people (both men and women) who left their low-paid jobs, did short-term courses and started working in IT, making a lot of money. Which means that there will always be someone who is eager to do nothing and just spread their legs for money (no, I'm being unfair to them, this is also hard work )), and it has nothing to do with poverty. If you want to make money in Ukraine, you will find a way which won't insult your dignity, believe me. But of course it's easier to do nothing, complain and try to scam money out of people who want to feel like heroes coming and saving somebody from the depth of poverty and squalor )))

I dont' think anyone is saving them. 


I know a woman who runs an organization for prostitutes, trying to get them off the streets, in Ukraine.  That's how I know the problem is increasing.

[Boethius]

Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.

I'm not referring to someone who can save up and take a trip to Paris.  I was referring to real money - Bentleys, yachts, offshore bank accounts, etc.


$3000 may be a great salary in Ukraine, but the fact you view this as "rich" or that 1,000-1,500 is "upper middle class" proves my point. 

[treadmilldude]

Speaking of Ukraine being poor, and also drug dealers etc ))))) (there are so many experts on this question here, pardon my intrusion in the discussion )))) don't forget, that not only criminals are rich in modern Ukraine )) Those who work in IT get outstanding salaries by Ukrainian (and also USA, I believe) standards. A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.


PS: Could you please catch me up on one thing: is Trenchcoat BillyB's gf/wife? I haven't been around for a while so the last thing I remember about BillyB is his amazing trip report a couple of years ago which kept me gripped for like many evenings (as well as multiple fights around it) ))))))))))))) - Ok, got it, Trenchcoat is not the RW who's writing the report, then can somebody give me a link to the report which is discussed, pls? )))))

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/in/Kiev?displayCurrency=USD

Average (Mean) Salary in Kiev as of 9-18-17, after tax is (This data is based on 6360 entries in the past 12 months from (443) different contributors.) (Ie the sample size is fairly robust) $304.73 US. However, as in all other jurisdictions I know of Nat, this average salary (after tax) is skewed right, as there are a small number of Kiev citizens who make wwwwaaayyyyy more than $304.73 per month. Thus, in this case, the Median (50th percentile) and Mean are a good bit different from each other. In this case, the Mean is irrelevant of this right skewed data. Focus on the Median Nat. I estimate the Median to be about $220 US or so per month after tax.

The 50th percentile in Kiev, Nat, is roughly $220 US per month.

Translation Nat....those salary numbers you just quoted are B.S. Complete gobbledeegoop.
You just made those numbers up out of your head because you were bored and wanted to make up some fake numbers. Why did you do that? I am sorry, but Boethius is a very reliable source of data like that. Evidently, you are not. I trust my figures and I trust Boe's figures. I am confident that close to 0% of IT developers in Kiev make $6K-$8K US per month or even $3K / month after tax.

I am sorry Nat. Good luck to you.

[Boethius]

No, there are IT people making excellent salaries in Ukraine.  They're just not the majority of the populace.  That's my point.

[Boethius]

You know, guys, this made me remember one thing. I sometimes watch a youtube channel of 2 girls who used to live in the USA and then relocated to China to work there as English teachers. It's quite interesting to watch their insights on cultural differences and all that stuff. But there was one video which was kinda revealing )) The girls were talking about the pros of living in China, and the main advantage they named was SAFETY ))) Which was kinda surprising, because knowing about the level of everything in China it's hard to imagine it to be a safe country. But I still remember the astonished facial expression of the girl from LA who kept saying: "Can you believe it, you can actually go by bus without being attacked, and you can walk at 10 pm and it's perfectly safe!" (it was eye-opening for me because I'd never think it's unsafe to use public transport in LA, btw).
I'm saying this because whether it's safe or not safe to walk around at night in Ukraine (it depends), it really has nothing to do with poverty, it's all about local culture, your personal behavior and a bit of luck.

Actually, it does have to do with poverty in this case, though I agree, being poor has nothing to do with crime.   


The outdoor lights in the neighbourhood are not turned on by the city at night, as it tries to "save money".   It is just so different from what I was used to in that neighbourhood. 

[BillyB]

A junior developer gets 3000USD a month (the tax is only 5% for IT), a senior developer can get as much as 6-8k USD. Lower positions like QA stuff get 1000-1500 USD, which makes you an upper layer of middle class in Ukraine.

Your estimates are close to reality.


http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary


http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary

[rw_recruiter]

Your estimates are close to reality.

http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Senior_Software_Engineer/Salary

http://www.payscale.com/research/UA/Job=Software_Engineer/Salary

Nats numbers are spot on actually. A dev can freelance on upwork for 25-30 USD per hour if he is average. I place guys at 4-5k USD per month all day long. No way to tell if they also work side gigs.....

[Nat]

BillyB and Jumper, thanks guys for the links to trip reports, I guess I'll have some fun tonight 

Poverty is the 'default' excuse for criminal activities used in the US, so why not Ukraine? 

Exactly.
Based on my various life experience  , I noticed that a lot of people use any excuses to justify their views on what's happening, the views they are comfortable with, even when it becomes clear than they might have been deceived or might have got something wrong. I have also learned that trying to persuade such people and explain them the obvious usually provokes denial, hostility and arguments like "you're lying" or "you don't know anything" So I'm just saying what I know living here, and it's up to each and every person what they take out of it ))

In Ukraine, developers get paid that much? How? Unless they do remote work for foreign based companies, I don't see how those salaries are justified in that economy where some physicians make as little as 5000UAH/month. I manage a team and we have one developer based out of Krakow, Poland in our office there and he doesn't get 6 or 8K USD and he is a damn good senior developer.

That's exactly what they do - they do remote work, but being employed by Ukrainian companies. There are multiple Ukrainian IT companies which specialize in doing outsourced stuff for Sweden, the Netherlands, the USA etc, the demand for such work is currently much higher than the supply, so a lot of people give up their jobs to become IT workers. University degree in the field used to be obligatory but now several months courses are just fine. Then you have to gain some experience, and after a year or two you're already a senior developer.

Speaking of inequality of salaries - a year ago it was an issue, but now other employers are trying to raise salaries in order to at least try to keep up. Anyway, they are no match for IT salaries, but they are going up steadily.

I know a woman who runs an organization for prostitutes, trying to get them off the streets, in Ukraine.  That's how I know the problem is increasing.

You see, in any country there are places where social problems are quite acute. I'm sure there are problems with drug addicts and prostitution in the USA as well. If such people are your only source of information, obviously your whole idea of what things are like in this country might be a bit out of touch with the reality.
In fact, Ukrainian society is very uneven, and there is also this soviet stigma - it's never been considered embarrassing to be poor - vice versa, being poor has always been perceived as a kind of nobility, whereas being rich has been something to frown at. That's why a lot of people don't even try to get a bit richer or don't see other ways of doing that apart from stealing (as they have always been told - "that guy is reach because he's stealing"). However, luckily, the Internet and the global space for communication are gradually taking effect on people's mentality, and there are more and more people who understand that if you want something, you just have to do something, like start your own business, change your major, etc.

$3000 may be a great salary in Ukraine, but the fact you view this as "rich" or that 1,000-1,500 is "upper middle class" proves my point. 

Well, you have to take everything into account First, the figures mentioned are the money you get after you pay the tax (well, if you pay it at all, you know how it is here ). Second, prices for everything are extremely cheap. An apartment in a newly build building is 25k + remodeling, so if you earn 3k, you can totally live off 500usd and have enough money to buy an apartment in 10 months, without any mortgages. We don't have high property tax. Utility bills have gone up, but they are still affordable if you live in a modern building. Public transport is cheap as shit (it looks like shit as well, of course )). A one-way ticket is 0,1 usd. 10 cents. So basically if you earn 3k, you will have trouble finding where to spend it. Actually, that's one of the problems now - that people started getting a lot of money, but have no culture of spending it, and thus just waste it on expensive restaurants etc.
So, surely for the USA 3k salary might sound a bit ridiculous, but having a lot of friends and actually relatives there in the states I know how much you have to pay in tax/insurance/other payments monthly, and here you don't, so the final figures are not that different

Average (Mean) Salary in Kiev as of 9-18-17, after tax is (This data is based on 6360 entries in the past 12 months from (443) different contributors.) (Ie the sample size is fairly robust) $304.73 US. However, as in all other jurisdictions I know of Nat, this average salary (after tax) is skewed right, as there are a small number of Kiev citizens who make wwwwaaayyyyy more than $304.73 per month. Thus, in this case, the Median (50th percentile) and Mean are a good bit different from each other. In this case, the Mean is irrelevant of this right skewed data. Focus on the Median Nat. I estimate the Median to be about $220 US or so per month after tax.

The 50th percentile in Kiev, Nat, is roughly $220 US per month.

Oh my   Have you ever heard of tax evasion? 10 out of 100 people show their REAL salaries to the government   So how can you trust this statistics? )))  Besides, the rent for an average apartment in Kiev is 250$ (a studio, 40 sq m), so if the average salary is 220, who can then afford such rent? And I gave you the price for an average flat, not for a good one - most of my friends in Kiev pay 350-400 usd in rent for small flats. Most of them have their own business or work in IT or are self-employed, but there are also those who work for multinationals or local but wealthy companies.

Translation Nat....those salary numbers you just quoted are B.S. Complete gobbledeegoop.

 

You just made those numbers up out of your head because you were bored and wanted to make up some fake numbers. Why did you do that? I am sorry, but Boethius is a very reliable source of data like that. Evidently, you are not. I trust my figures and I trust Boe's figures. I am confident that close to 0% of IT developers in Kiev make $6K-$8K US per month or even $3K / month after tax.

Totally agree with you - after all, what do I know, living here and earning money here )) But that's exactly what I started this post with, so let's just relax and enjoy the performance

I am sorry Nat. Good luck to you.

Nothing to be sorry about, I'm having a lot of fun, please continue ))

Nats numbers are spot on actually. A dev can freelance on upwork for 25-30 USD per hour if he is average. I place guys at 4-5k USD per month all day long. No way to tell if they also work side gigs.....

Oh, they do ))

[rw_recruiter]

I trust my figures and I trust Boe's figures. I am confident that close to 0% of IT developers in Kiev make $6K-$8K US per month or even $3K / month after tax.

There you go. Keep in mind a remote dev can bill multiple clients as long as they produce.

[rw_recruiter]

The editor Anya is friends with who works for a local movie company here in Odessa was just offered a job for Netflix. She will now work both, and of course only report one as income. This is how it works in Ukraine.

[BdHvA]

An apartment in a newly build building is 25k + remodeling, so if you earn 3k, you can totally live off 500usd and have enough money to buy an apartment in 10 months, without any mortgages. We don't have high property tax. Utility bills have gone up, but they are still affordable if you live in a modern building. Public transport is cheap as shit (it looks like shit as well, of course )). A one-way ticket is 0,1 usd. 10 cents. So basically if you earn 3k, you will have trouble finding where to spend it.

Not entirely sure what you are smokin. Please let RWD know of any central new build apartments in Kiev for $25,000 US.

You are correct about utility bills & most yellow buses are charging 5 to 6 ₴ in Kivy

So, surely for the USA 3k salary might sound a bit ridiculous, but having a lot of friends and actually relatives there in the states I know how much you have to pay in tax/insurance/other payments monthly, and here you don't, so the final figures are not that different

[/size]

Oh my   Have you ever heard of tax evasion? 10 out of 100 people show their REAL salaries to the government   So how can you trust this statistics? )))  Besides, the rent for an average apartment in Kiev is 250$ (a studio, 40 sq m), so if the average salary is 220, who can then afford such rent? And I gave you the price for an average flat, not for a good one - most of my friends in Kiev pay 350-400 usd in rent for small flats. Most of them have their own business or work in IT or are self-employed, but there are also those who work for multinationals or local but wealthy companies.

Please inform RWD what a flat to rent in Tetris Hall or Skyline of Kiev/Kivy cost per month as well as cost to purchase outright, unfinished.

While I agree many are self employed. When you are employed by a Western facing firm your income is fully reported.

Please stop with this nonsense.

[Boethius]

The attitude displayed by Nat is why Ukraine will remain a mostly failed state, and why it will never be accepted as part of the EU.   I can't blame her or other Ukrainians though, when they have the example of the grifters running the country at all levels.


Don't get old or sick in Ukraine.  Don't expect water you can drink straight out of the tap, or great roads all across the country, or a bureaucracy that runs efficiently or bribe free.


MIL's utilities are about $25 a month, and they are subsidized by the state.  Her pension is about $50. 

[Boethius]

n fact, Ukrainian society is very uneven, and there is also this soviet stigma - it's never been considered embarrassing to be poor - vice versa, being poor has always been perceived as a kind of nobility, whereas being rich has been something to frown at. That's why a lot of people don't even try to get a bit richer or don't see other ways of doing that apart from stealing (as they have always been told - "that guy is reach because he's stealing"). However, luckily, the Internet and the global space for communication are gradually taking effect on people's mentality, and there are more and more people who understand that if you want something, you just have to do something, like start your own business, change your major, etc.

It has never been embarrassing to be poor in the West, either.   I doubt it is an "acceptance" of poverty at play.  Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur, nor should they be. 

In Soviet times, being poor was not perceived as "noble".  Why do you think all  peasants were clamouring to live in cities?  Why do you think people joined the CPSU?  Out of a deep belief in Bolshevism? 

I understand this is how you see it, and I think your statement about the mentality being Soviet is accurate. However poverty is not the reason. It is because anyone who had such ambitions was jailed. You can't beat initiative out of people for seven decades and expect it to change overnight. 

[BillyB]

Please let RWD know of any central new build apartments in Kiev for $25,000 US.

Nat didn't mention the new apartments are central. Could be on the outskirts of the city. I bought a new apartment in an elite neighborhood in Ivano-Frankivsk last year for $19,000. The dollar tripled in value there since the war started. Nat also said "+ remodeling". My apartment was a concrete box. Had to put up money to do the kitchen, bathroom, floor, etc....

[ML]

We paid around $100,000 for 3 room apartment in new building near new US Embassy in Kyiv back in 2014.  That was just the shell.  Put in another $50,000 or so plus a lot of free labor from me, friends and relatives that might have been worth $30,000 or more.

Standard old 2 room Khrushchyovka's still go for $60,000 or so in outer districts of Kyiv.

[BillyB]

An old house with land in "central", not center, Kiev for under $5000


http://www.uaproperty.com/ua-offers/central/kiev/low-cost-house-for-sale-in-ukrainian-countryside/


A new build luxury apartment in "central", not center, Kiev for under $20,000. I can't say Nat is wrong on this. She lives there after all. Good time to invest, rent the place out, and sell when it's a seller's market which will happen after Russia backs off.


http://www.uaproperty.com/ua-offers/central/kiev/new-build-apartments-for-sale-in-kiev/

[ML]

An old house with land in "central", not center, Kiev for under $5000


http://www.uaproperty.com/ua-offers/central/kiev/low-cost-house-for-sale-in-ukrainian-countryside/

Billy, it is not central Kiev . . . it is central Ukraine.

And Kiev has very little to do with it, as it's 130 Km away.

There are a ton of such houses available for that price out in the countryside of Ukraine.

[BillyB]

Kiev is a big place. Here's a brand new unfinished apartment for $20,000. Check out the Google map. It's 4 miles from the center of Kiev and 3 miles from the airport. You can find these prices Nat mentioned in Kiev. Sometimes guys are too trusting of FSU women but in this case, they're not. Trust and verify is easy in this case. Google helps find the answers.


http://www.dimdom.kiev.ua/en/37533-kvartira-sale-Kiev-Goloseevskiy-Raketnaya-ul.html


http://www.dimdom.kiev.ua/en/sale-kvartira/Kiev/p_2#orderby_pricea

[AkMike]

A better 'feel' for the rea estate market would be  dom.ria.com or OLX.ua. Normal values for an shell apt are much higher than the 'cherry picked' 20K shown as an example. 


 I've got 2 apts. on the left bank that were shells when I bought them and after finishing they are worth about what I've got invested. No 'Blue Sky' , just a stipend for rent.  The political situation is still too IFFY to consider being a good time to invest IMO.