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Author Topic: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?  (Read 450961 times)

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Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #850 on: April 18, 2014, 06:57:37 AM »

Take Moscow and a few large cities out of the equation and those tied to the oil and gas average, and that average Russian wage would go down quite a bit. The relevant point of comparison would be to compare the average wage of Russians in Voronezh and other such cities to those in Ukraine.


Pensions would go up, but the question is how Russia will be able to keep adding new pensioners to the mix without putting undue pressure on the entire Russian pension system...

My MIL's Russian school teacher's pension equates to $260 bucks a month. My SIL who was recently forced to retire at 55 from a Western salary position the gas industry equates to $400 a month. FWIW


Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #851 on: April 18, 2014, 07:33:34 AM »

You are stating (as fact) reasons that see things differently than you.  You are incorrect in doing that.


I have no idea FT what you are trying to say here.

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I do see a difference when you look at the ENTIRE playing field.  I still see differences between Ukraine and the USA, and with those differences I see a case to be made to allow for more independence of certain regions of E. Ukraine. 


If the USA was in a different position and certain states wanted to leave the union that would have to be looked at seriously. 

Entire playing field? WTF?  What differences and why would they apply? Why would the U.S. borders be any different from Ukraine's borders? Because U.S. is a wealthy nation and Ukraine is a poor one?

Brighton Beach in NYC is full of Russian speaking U.S. citizens. Does that make it acceptable to you that it is then "okay" for Putin to invade Brighton Beach?

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I don't believe the main reason Russia is likely fomenting is because of the Russian speakers.  I believe they are attempting to keep a pro-Russia buffer region.  The West and Russia disagree about a lot of things and are on opposite sides of the fence, and I think Russia has decided that they sure as hell aren't  going to have another western influenced country on their doorstep.  As it turns out it is possible that a majority of people in this part of the country are supportive of this for their own reasons.  I see how Russia can retain some influence while most of the people get what they want too.  It is imperfect but so are most things.  Since I'm willing to hear and extrapolate what I think are Russia's reasons for doing what they are doing. They have not outright invaded E. Ukraine as they have retained enough influence from within to make some noise. 
 I've decided that to this point what Russia has done is not unreasonable in terms of world balance.  I realize others do, which is fine of course.



FT, you just keep going back to your circular logic. "Ukraine just has to take it in the ass because Russia feels threatened by the West" "Russia has invaded annexed against it's will part of a sovereign nation and this is "not unreasonable" in terms of "world balance"?  Just Wow!

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I also realize that not every single individual does well because of what is happening, some die, some are displaced, some are unhappy.  But as you well know nobody has promised us a rose garden.  I'm thankful I'm not in that region and I'm thankful that we haven't attempted to counter Russia thus far.     

FWIW FT, I don't believe the U.S. has any dog in that hunt, either. But, I do not justify that by declaring Russia has full right to invade/agitate/foment/annex another country because it is "uneasy" and needs a pro Russian neighbor in Ukraine. That is bullshit. When the majority of U.S. begins to think as you do you won't have to worry about you being in "that region". That region will be coming to you

Offline Muzh

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #852 on: April 18, 2014, 07:51:38 AM »
I have no idea FT what you are trying to say here.


FP, I'll try to explain it to you.
 
First, the man has no interest in the former Soyuz since his spouse is from South America. However, he comes to a forum that caters to relationships between Western men and women from the former soyuz.
 
Then he appoints himself as the paladin of the truth in this forum and will "push back" those he considers unworthy of his knowledge.
 
So how he does this? Like a child being unhappy with his parents. He goes on this passive-aggressive rant looking for issues that will push the buttons of those with interests in the region.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #853 on: April 18, 2014, 09:40:17 AM »
Take Moscow and a few large cities out of the equation and those tied to the oil and gas average, and that average Russian wage would go down quite a bit. The relevant point of comparison would be to compare the average wage of Russians in Voronezh and other such cities to those in Ukraine.



 I was comparing country vs. country. If Moscow and all Russian oligarchs are taken out of the equation, we need to take Kiev and Ukrainian oligarchs out of the equation too. The average Russian makes 3 times the income of the average Ukrainian. I'd bet the average Moscovite makes 3 times the income of those living in Kiev. I'm willing to bet the Russian oligarch is on average 3 times richer than his Ukrainian counterpart.


Bottom line is many Ukrainians would love to make the income of those living in the Baltics, Poland and Czech Republic. It's unrealistic for them to make what Russians make under the previous program.  To get to where other ex soviet bloc nations are, they need to make changes in their government and change direction of the country.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline Misha

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #854 on: April 18, 2014, 11:16:52 AM »
The average Russian makes 3 times the income of the average Ukrainian. I'd bet the average Moscovite makes 3 times the income of those living in Kiev. I'm willing to bet the Russian oligarch is on average 3 times richer than his Ukrainian counterpart.


Let's take two comparable regions: the Voronezh region and the city of Donetsk.


In the Voronezh region, the average salary is a bit more than 21,000 rubles in the latter half of 2013. This works our to roughly a bit less that $600 US.


In Donetsk, the average salage is a bit more than 4,000 griven, and this works out to a bit more than $360.


Do they earn more in Russia? Yes. Is it three times more than comparable regions in Ukraine? No. It is short of even twice as much.


And, this in spite of the fact that hundreds of billions of dollars poured into Russia thanks to the sale of oil, gas and other natural resources. What would it be like if oil prices dropped or if oil and gas production were to go down?


Sources: [size=78%]http://www.infovoronezh.ru/News/Srednyaya-zarplata-v-Voronejskoy-oblasti---bolee-21-tyisyachi-rubley-20402.html[/size] and [/size][size=78%]http://www.62.ua/news/463126[/size][/size][size=78%] [/size]

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #855 on: April 18, 2014, 01:52:53 PM »
I have no idea FT what you are trying to say here.

 


it looks like i left a word or two out accidentally...it isn't really important though.




Entire playing field? WTF?  What differences and why would they apply? Why would the U.S. borders be any different from Ukraine's borders? Because U.S. is a wealthy nation and Ukraine is a poor one?

Brighton Beach in NYC is full of Russian speaking U.S. citizens. Does that make it acceptable to you that it is then "okay" for Putin to invade Brighton Beach?



FT, you just keep going back to your circular logic. "Ukraine just has to take it in the ass because Russia feels threatened by the West" "Russia has invaded annexed against it's will part of a sovereign nation and this is "not unreasonable" in terms of "world balance"?  Just Wow!

FWIW FT, I don't believe the U.S. has any dog in that hunt, either. But, I do not justify that by declaring Russia has full right to invade/agitate/foment/annex another country because it is "uneasy" and needs a pro Russian neighbor in Ukraine. That is bullshit. When the majority of U.S. begins to think as you do you won't have to worry about you being in "that region". That region will be coming to you


Hey FP...I think I have SOME understanding of the RUssian position regarding the recent events...

We (The USA) have been guilty of some misdeeds and even assassinated a pro Russian leader...we didn't actually assassinate him, we just killed all the people around him, so the rebel forces could stick a bayonet up his rear end.. I guess RUssia has decided they are going to also raise hell where they have the upper hand.  Had we not been doing these sort of things ourselves I would have been outraged by what I see is happening in Ukraine.. I showed extreme outrage for at the time we started bombing and threatening other countries, and still do.  Russia is now embarking on their own campaign.  I'm not saying Russia has a right to encourage rebellion in another country, but they are doing it anyway, just as we have.  We have our  'civilized' ways of doing it, and Russia has its way...I don't see a difference...I really don't.  So yes, although I'm not supportive what is happening. I do accept it to a point, not because I want to, but because it would be hypocritical of someone here in the USA after what has been done in our names not to be.  .  I understand that others don't accept it, and that is fine. 

No Ukraine doesn't have to take it "Up the Ass"...they can fight it...Just as other countries have fought the USA, if they choose to.  It appears that quite a lot Ukrainians aren't though. 

Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #856 on: April 18, 2014, 01:58:28 PM »

FP, I'll try to explain it to you.
 
First, the man has no interest in the former Soyuz since his spouse is from South America. However, he comes to a forum that caters to relationships between Western men and women from the former soyuz.
 
Then he appoints himself as the paladin of the truth in this forum and will "push back" those he considers unworthy of his knowledge.
 
So how he does this? Like a child being unhappy with his parents. He goes on this passive-aggressive rant looking for issues that will push the buttons of those with interests in the region.


What no more self-portraits?




I'll try to bring this post down to your lower level so you can understand best. 


I believe you are just angry because you read the entire situation entirely wrong from the start.  Meanwhile I politely posted what I believed was happening.  To this point I've been closer to correct than you.   :)


You fancy yourself as a 'wise expert' but really you have behaved like a whiny fool.  I'm delighted my presence here has rocked your boat! You can continue to count on 'push back' when I disagree with an opinion, and you try to act like a know-it-all while attempting to denigrate others in the process. 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #857 on: April 18, 2014, 02:03:03 PM »

it looks like i left a word or two out accidentally...it isn't really important though.



Hey FP...I think I have SOME understanding of the RUssian position regarding the recent events...

We (The USA) have been guilty of some misdeeds and even assassinated a pro Russian leader...we didn't actually assassinate him, we just killed all the people around him, so the rebel forces could stick a bayonet up his rear end.. I guess RUssia has decided they are going to also raise hell where they have the upper hand.  Had we not been doing these sort of things ourselves I would have been outraged by what I see is happening in Ukraine.. I showed extreme outrage for at the time we started bombing and threatening other countries, and still do.  Russia is now embarking on their own campaign.  I'm not saying Russia has a right to encourage rebellion in another country, but they are doing it anyway, just as we have.  We have our  'civilized' ways of doing it, and Russia has its way...I don't see a difference...I really don't.  So yes, although I'm not supportive what is happening. I do accept it to a point, not because I want to, but because it would be hypocritical of someone here in the USA after what has been done in our names not to be.  .  I understand that others don't accept it, and that is fine. 

No Ukraine doesn't have to take it "Up the Ass"...they can fight it...Just as other countries have fought the USA, if they choose to.  It appears that quite a lot Ukrainians aren't though. 

Fathertime! 

More flawed circular logic FT. We imported slaves and had a thriving slave trade in our history, does that make it okay for Russia to enslave the Ukrainians?

You are trying to "justify" Russia's  Putin's actions based on what the U.S. has or hasn't done in the past. FYI, that is not what you "should" make the comparison based on. Instead, based Putin's actions as if Ukraine were the U.S. and he was doing to you and the U.S. what he is doing to Ukraine. How do you feel/see through that prism? Is it now okay and a win/win for the U.S. and Russia?

Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #858 on: April 18, 2014, 02:10:46 PM »
Do they earn more in Russia? Yes. Is it three times more than comparable regions in Ukraine? No. It is short of even twice as much.


And, this in spite of the fact that hundreds of billions of dollars poured into Russia thanks to the sale of oil, gas and other natural resources. What would it be like if oil prices dropped or if oil and gas production were to go down?



Let's say for arguments sake you're 100% right and Russians don't make 3 times as much as Ukrainians especially if you take away Russia's oil and gas and Moscow. It's more reason for Ukrainians to adopt a Western style economy instead of using the Russian model. Poland, Czech Republic, and the Baltics don't have near the oil and gas Russia does yet the average income in those countries are more than in Russia.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #859 on: April 18, 2014, 02:35:40 PM »
Fp, I do not agree that it is circular logic. I am not talking about slavery so I don't believe that comparison is relevant to this particular issue.

In explaining why Russia is doing what they are I feel that our past actions are at issue.  We can bemoan what they are doing, but I'm not going to because I believe we had a role. I believe that we have been interfering way too much and this event is one of possibly a few consequences. 
If I were in Ukraine I might not like what was happening..it would depend.
Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #860 on: April 18, 2014, 02:42:17 PM »
Fp, I do not agree that it is circular logic. I am not talking about slavery so I don't believe that comparison is relevant to this particular issue.

It is as relevant as anything else that the U.S. has done in justifying what Putin is doing.

Quote
In explaining why Russia is doing what they are I feel that our past actions are at issue.  We can bemoan what they are doing, but I'm not going to because I believe we had a role. I believe that we have been interfering way too much and this event is one of possibly a few consequences. 
If I were in Ukraine I might not like what was happening..it would depend.
Fathertime!

You are ignoring my question FT, if Putin were doing to the U.S. what he is doing to Ukraine from the Canadian border right now, would you be as accepting?

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #861 on: April 18, 2014, 03:03:19 PM »
It is as relevant as anything else that the U.S. has done in justifying what Putin is doing.

You are ignoring my question FT, if Putin were doing to the U.S. what he is doing to Ukraine from the Canadian border right now, would you be as accepting?
No I don't think bringing slavery into the discussion is worthwhile.  It is a different issue.

I also don't think making up a hypothetical about Canada is an equal comparison because for one in worldwide terms the people here are doing great.  That cant be said in Ukraine.  Nevertheless to respond, at this time I am not for rebellion or big change so I wouldn't want Putin to bother with me...people of different areas or situations might feel differently.
Fathertime!
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Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #862 on: April 18, 2014, 05:01:57 PM »
One way to look at it is that we couldn’t hold our president to account for his transgressions in Libya, it didn’t matter what the public thought, he was going to do what he wanted to do….but Putin CAN hold our ‘representatives’ accountable, with consequences like doing some regime changing of his own (he hasn’t gone that far yet).  In a recent question and answer session, Putin specifically called out our country.  Russia had agreed to allow the UN to create a ‘no fly zone’ in Libya…after which we decided to go much further and start bombing and assassinating a foreign leader, which was not part of the agreement.   While many in the US were chuckling about it, I thought it was a terrible thing for us to get involved in doing. 


We have now given Russia the license to do the same sort of thing if they choose to.  After all we are the ‘leaders of the free world’ so people follow our lead, so some believe.  Of course we do these things for the sake of ‘liberating people’ and when Russia makes a move it is because they are ‘Hitler’ or ‘evil’…I just don’t buy it.   As citizens of the USA we are accountable for what our ‘representatives’ have done, so we really don’t have any leg to stand on complaining when another country does something similar. Why is it that we feel we can have it both ways?
   Of course this is only my opinion.




Fathertime! 
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Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #863 on: April 19, 2014, 01:50:28 AM »

We have now given Russia the license to do the same sort of thing if they choose to.  After all we are the ‘leaders of the free world’ so people follow our lead, so some believe.  Of course we do these things for the sake of ‘liberating people’ and when Russia makes a move it is because they are ‘Hitler’ or ‘evil’…I just don’t buy it.   As citizens of the USA we are accountable for what our ‘representatives’ have done, so we really don’t have any leg to stand on complaining when another country does something similar. Why is it that we feel we can have it both ways?
   Of course this is only my opinion.



Fathertime!

And one I agree with as well.  As in law, historical precedents count.  In fact today it seems to be acceptable to do just about anything in the name of 'national security' not only at home but abroad as well.  That other powerful countries can wield their swords as well with the same justification should not be a surprise nor deemed unacceptable.


Offline Chelseaboy

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #864 on: April 19, 2014, 02:23:29 AM »
Which other countries have USA,Britain,etc recently invaded and stolen part of that countries land ..claiming it as their own ?


The Russian cheerleaders on here do talk some rubbish. :rolleyes:
Just saying it like it is.

Online Faux Pas

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #865 on: April 19, 2014, 04:41:44 AM »
And one I agree with as well.  As in law, historical precedents count.  In fact today it seems to be acceptable to do just about anything in the name of 'national security' not only at home but abroad as well.  That other powerful countries can wield their swords as well with the same justification should not be a surprise nor deemed unacceptable.

There is no comparison or precedent for Putin's move on Ukraine. Unless of course you want to reach back to Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait? Take away Russia's nukes and they are not a powerful country neither economically or militarily in fact, they are a very weak country
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 04:46:39 AM by Faux Pas »

Offline BC

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #866 on: April 19, 2014, 06:14:00 AM »
There is no comparison or precedent for Putin's move on Ukraine.

In terms of annexation indeed. Iraq waged a full scale war against Kuwait with thousands of lives lost along with property and equipment damaged and destroyed.  The Autonomous Republic of Crimea founded in 1991 seceded from Ukraine and joined Russia after a popular referendum, a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.

As far as precedents such as meddling in political processes (funding and other political tools), sending 'military advisors' or special forces to assist one or other party in overt or covert manners, black ops, assassinations, even to the extent of starting conflicts from within and all out war for reasons of national security or other interests, RU is most certainly not alone.

Why does RU do such?  Because it can despite objections from the US and/or others.
Why does the US do such? Because it can despite objections from RU and/or others.

My line of thought make sense now? 

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #867 on: April 19, 2014, 06:27:10 AM »
In terms of annexation indeed. Iraq waged a full scale war against Kuwait with thousands of lives lost along with property and equipment damaged and destroyed.  The Autonomous Republic of Crimea founded in 1991 seceded from Ukraine and joined Russia after a popular referendum, a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.

 :ROFL:

If you "need" to believe that, there's nothing I can say to you.

Quote
As far as precedents such as meddling in political processes (funding and other political tools), sending 'military advisors' or special forces to assist one or other party in overt or covert manners, black ops, assassinations, even to the extent of starting conflicts from within and all out war for reasons of national security or other interests, RU is most certainly not alone.

Why does RU do such?  Because it can despite objections from the US and/or others.
Why does the US do such? Because it can despite objections from RU and/or others.

I don't disagree with this BC, many, many countries do this all the time and have throughout history. The U.S. and Russia being two of the biggest offenders in the last 70 years however, invading and stealing territory no, Russia and Iraq have that distinction.

Quote
My line of thought make sense now?
Ah, no
« Last Edit: April 19, 2014, 06:28:46 AM by Faux Pas »

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #868 on: April 19, 2014, 07:59:00 AM »
There is no comparison or precedent for Putin's move on Ukraine. Unless of course you want to reach back to Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait?
I disagree with this statement, imo a comparison CAN be made.  I don't see a very significant distinction between taking effective control of a govt using influence/financial pressures, among other things...and outright annexing it as Russia has done with Crimea.  I don't see a significant difference between assassinating a foreign leader and many of the people around him, vs fomenting which it appears Russia is doing in Ukraine.  Of course a US citizen (or anyone else) CAN say there is a big difference, but from Russia's perspective they don't agree, and I see their point.

As you said earlier, Russia is not a strong nation in many respects, but it does have some abilities.  It may not be able to summon the financial pressures (yet) but obviously it can/will use what they do have. 


Going forward,  today I read that one of our US drones went and bombed and killed at least 15, as we deemed them terrorists in training.   Now at some point down the road when other nations/groups get the technology/drones and start deeming our military advisers to be terrorists in training, and kill them, we will cry foul....and will have no leg to stand on....from their point of view we are terrorists.   


Yeah I get the idea. But, I believe these are two separate and distinct things here as LFU mentioned. The hours and days after Benghazi the truth wasn't made available to be on the web. Being lied to and unable to find the truth aren't the same things. The same pertains to IRS scandal and the bevy of other lies this admin has purported


I've pulled this from a recent parallel thread to demonstrate another example of what I feel is selective reasoning and excuses.  Presumably Russia is the liar and the USA is the nation that makes it near impossible to find the truth.  You have insisted that doing this isn't the same thing.  Well technically you are correct it isn't the same, but that doesn't make any difference other than being able to say "I didn't lie!".  Either way the public doesn't get the correct information.  I don't see a good reason to minimize the USA's fouled up actions while condemning another nation for their more obvious methods.  Once again, we can't have it both ways and act like we are doing everybody a favor.  Myself, I choose to be more focused on our own inconsistencies, and until we do better with them (if we ever choose to), I feel we should keep from whining about other countries methods.  There is VERY little difference in my opinion.
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Fathertime! 
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Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #869 on: April 19, 2014, 08:37:03 AM »
As citizens of the USA we are accountable for what our ‘representatives’ have done, so we really don’t have any leg to stand on complaining when another country does something similar. Why is it that we feel we can have it both ways?
 


One can replace "USA" with "Soviet Union/Russia" in what you wrote. After WWII, USA has been trying to stop Soviet advancement and undo what the Soviet Union has done and we're still not finished. Russia shouldn't be mad about losing something they should've never owned.



We have now given Russia the license to do the same sort of thing if they choose to. 



Russia isn't exactly doing the same thing USA is doing. Old America did steal people's land. Present day USA doesn't steal land although we do get involved in regime changes against those that are hostile. I'm all for regime changes against those who'd end America's, friendly nations, and my existence. Ukraine wasn't hostile to Russia. They simply wanted to move in a new direction and Russia wasn't happy about it and now want their gifts back which legally belonged to Ukraine. Not only do they want their gifts back, they don't want Ukraine to move in another direction. How many guys know of a man who doesn't allow his weaker wife after a split to move about on her own free will? Is that right or wrong?


Some people, such as Putin, want to bring back the past to make an argument instead of using present day recognition of borders. How far back in history is Putin going to go in search for land that Russia once owned? He won't have to go too far back. After WWII Russia owned many countries. That is why Ukraine and eastern European NATO countries are in panic. Those countries are inviting America on their land and are rejecting Russia. That should be the biggest telling sign about the difference between Russia and America base on how most citizens and nations of the world view us.


Fathertime, although you believe Russia has more interest in that part of the world than America, the majority of citizens living there doesn't think so and are inviting America into their business. If they are our friends and we have the ability to help with their survival, we should be reliable friends not only because it's the right thing to do but someday we may need their help in our time of need. Obama needs to stop acting like a wimp thinking being strong is going to provoke Russia. He needs to speak out more that Russia is not going to steal more land and do something about it. "Land grab" is too nice of a term. Obama should call it for what it is.


In other news it seems pro Russian protestors aren't leaving the government buildings. USA is telling Russia to do more about it. I'm sure Russia will come back and say they don't have control over those people since they once claimed they never did have control, influence, and troops in Ukraine. My guess now is Russia is going to mess up the May 25 elections so they can say the new president is illegitimate based off the unrest in east Ukraine and the people there couldn't get to vote.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #870 on: April 19, 2014, 08:48:30 AM »

One can replace "USA" with "Soviet Union/Russia" in what you wrote. After WWII, USA has been trying to stop Soviet advancement and undo what the Soviet Union has done and we're still not finished. Russia shouldn't be mad about losing something they should've never owned.


You are characterizing Russia as 'Mad'...Who said they are 'mad'? 
Why is it OUR business to stop 'Russia advancement'?  We could substitute in that Russia is trying to stop US advancement and would that be ok?





Russia isn't exactly doing the same thing USA is doing. Old America did steal people's land. Present day USA doesn't steal land although we do get involved in regime changes against those that are hostile.
 




well billyb it depends on what you call present day....Hawaii wasn't TOO long ago in the scheme of things, and that was blatant theft. 
We may use different means nowadays, and not administering to the land/peoples after we reap it for the business interests and resources we want/need...but I still don't see why we grumble when other nations decide to follow suit in their own way.  We have not been elected to dictate the rules for the planet.  We have become aggressive and meddlesome in our own ways which in my opinion have opened the door for other nations to do the same thing.  When China makes it's move at some point, we will be in a similar position that we are in now. 


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Misha

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #871 on: April 19, 2014, 08:49:07 AM »
a democratic process regardless whether or not it is recognized by others.


If it was so democratic and the Russians were so convinced that the population supported them, why the rush? They could have waited until the end of May. Gave people a chance to discuss the options. Heck, they could have given the option of keeping the status quo. Then, they could have invited legitimate international observers by the busload to confirm that the elections were conducted fairly and openly...

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #872 on: April 19, 2014, 08:56:09 AM »

 


Fathertime, although you believe Russia has more interest in that part of the world than America, the majority of citizens living there doesn't think so and are inviting America into their business. If they are our friends and we have the ability to help with their survival, we should be reliable friends not only because it's the right thing to do but someday we may need their help in our time of need. Obama needs to stop acting like a wimp thinking being strong is going to provoke Russia. He needs to speak out more that Russia is not going to steal more land and do something about it. "Land grab" is too nice of a term. Obama should call it for what it is.


Hey Billyb, 


I don't know about that one...I'm sure that a lot of Ukrainians want US protection, but I don't know that fact equates to them inviting us in to make profits at their expense. 
I really think Obama is correct in how he is handing this for the most part...if the USA does act in a strong way militarily in Russia's backyard I believe Russia will respond with a lot of force...This is not the time or place IMO... To this point Russia has not invaded E. Ukraine so letting things play out and allowing Ukraine to form a federation doesn't seem unreasonable. 
If Russia does choose to invade, I think it would be a dreadful mistake, that is one reason why I haven't thought that they will. 


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline BillyB

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #873 on: April 19, 2014, 09:27:11 AM »
Why is it OUR business to stop 'Russia advancement'? 



Every time an enemy advances, you lose a friend and your world becomes a deadlier place. Which scenario is better for any nation? Having America or the Soviet Union/Russia on their border? The choice is clear for most nations.


We could substitute in that Russia is trying to stop US advancement and would that be ok?



I don't see America advancing in this situation. America is helping countries regain their full independence since being taken over after WWII. Putin believes NATO is advancing on Russia but that's ridiculous. Russia should've never owned eastern Europe to be telling them who they can or can't join forces with.


I really think Obama is correct in how he is handing this for the most part...if the USA does act in a strong way militarily in Russia's backyard I believe Russia will respond with a lot of force...



We were nice guys during the crisis in Crimea slapping a few sanctions on Putin's buddies. Didn't work. Obama's handling of this is wrong because here we are again with an even bigger problem. Putin isn't dumb. He won't get into a fight he'd lose. I've dealt with Russian people before, mostly women, and strength is respected. Putin respects strength. One reason Putin is going slow in taking over Ukraine is because if there are too many deaths, America's military may get involved and that is the last thing he wants because it's the only thing he'll back off from.


To this point Russia has not invaded E. Ukraine so letting things play out and allowing Ukraine to form a federation doesn't seem unreasonable. 
 


Things aren't going to play out on it's own since Russia is involved but even if it did play out on it's own, it's wrong for the country to be split apart. I can find pockets of Americans, who don't like America, that would love to take their land and create their own country. I can find Americans who would love to split their state in two because they never get their politicians elected. One half the state is red and the other blue but the majority of the population is on one side and the other side always feels left out after elections. People can be bitter everywhere including in America but it's no reason to tear the country apart.


If Ukraine was very successful under Russia's influence, I'd probably think the majority of Ukrainians were crazy for wanting to join the west. It's not only their right to make that choice, it's the smart thing to do.


You may accept a split Ukraine but the only way the international community will accept Ukraine splitting is if there is a very bloody war between east and west where it's better for east and west Ukrainians to live separate than together. Putin is trying to make that bloody war happen.
Fund the audits, spread the word and educate people, write your politicians and other elected officials. Stay active in the fight to save our country. Over 220 generals and admirals say we are in a fight for our survival like no other time since 1776.

Offline fathertime

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Re: What would a U.S.-Russia war look like?
« Reply #874 on: April 19, 2014, 09:38:31 AM »

Every time an enemy advances, you lose a friend and your world becomes a deadlier place. Which scenario is better for any nation? Having America or the Soviet Union/Russia on their border? The choice is clear for most nations.



I don't see America advancing in this situation. America is helping countries regain their full independence since being taken over after WWII. Putin believes NATO is advancing on Russia but that's ridiculous. Russia should've never owned eastern Europe to be telling them who they can or can't join forces with.



We were nice guys during the crisis in Crimea slapping a few sanctions on Putin's buddies. Didn't work. Obama's handling of this is wrong because here we are again with an even bigger problem. Putin isn't dumb. He won't get into a fight he'd lose. I've dealt with Russian people before, mostly women, and strength is respected. Putin respects strength. One reason Putin is going slow in taking over Ukraine is because if there are too many deaths, America's military may get involved and that is the last thing he wants because it's the only thing he'll back off from.



Things aren't going to play out on it's own since Russia is involved but even if it did play out on it's own, it's wrong for the country to be split apart. I can find pockets of Americans, who don't like America, that would love to take their land and create their own country. I can find Americans who would love to split their state in two because they never get their politicians elected. One half the state is red and the other blue but the majority of the population is on one side and the other side always feels left out after elections. People can be bitter everywhere including in America but it's no reason to tear the country apart.


If Ukraine was very successful under Russia's influence, I'd probably think the majority of Ukrainians were crazy for wanting to join the west. It's not only their right to make that choice, it's the smart thing to do.


You may accept a split Ukraine but the only way the international community will accept Ukraine splitting is if there is a very bloody war between east and west where it's better for east and west Ukrainians to live separate than together. Putin is trying to make that bloody war happen.


Hey billyb,


I can't respond as thoroughly as I might otherwise because i gotta roll outta town...but to address a couple of the highlighted points....
1.  actually I see widespread bitterness as a valid reason to split up a country, I can't think of many better reasons actually...not saying that applies in this case...but just talking generally....relate it to a marriage...if partners are bitter, why the hell stay together...just to say you are married? sometimes going separate ways benefits everybody.


2.  I don't think a federation is a split...I also don't think the international community has to 'accept' anything really...unless they are the ones coming in and fighting and making a war.


Hey bud have a good weekend/easter.


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

 

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