So does anyone here ever go to Ukraine or Russia to date anymore?

[northkape]

mroz87

You can read my story here:

http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=15509.0

[Chelseaboy]

northkape,

                Your idea of beautiful and another mans idea of beautiful can be two different things.

A woman who complains about other mens prowess in sex would be a real turn-off for me.

Maybe the mens potency problems were caused by the women having small breasts and/or stretch marks ?

It certainly seems odd these "beautiful" women you know keep meeting men with small dicks,potency problems and sexual complexes...maybe these women need to look at themselves.

[Muzh]

northkape,

                Your idea of beautiful and another mans idea of beautiful can be two different things.

A woman who complains about other mens prowess in sex would be a real turn-off for me.

Maybe the mens potency problems were caused by the women having small breasts and/or stretch marks ?

It certainly seems odd these "beautiful" women you know keep meeting men with small dicks,potency problems and sexual complexes...maybe these women need to look at themselves.

It's all in your head dude. Don't blame the babe.

[Chelseaboy]

It isn't in my head "dude"..i get no complaints,but then i don't date women who bitch about other men's lack of sexual prowess.

And i don't date women with kids either..i don't need to 

[ML]

I also do not believe women who openly speak to a male friend about her companion's 'sexual issue' constitute an appropriate behaviour (and vice versa too).

Hey this is 2015, not 1950.

Women talk about these things with other women and with some other men.

World would be much better off if more people would discuss sexual things openly.

I am not saying that we should discuss other persons sexual inadequacies with people who know the other person, but certainly with 3rd parties it does no harm.

Such discussions could lead to the receipt of advice that could be useful to the person with the complaint.  Maybe they are doing something wrong, etc.

And, not infrequently, a seeming lack of potency of the male IS CAUSED BY HIS FEMALE PARTNER.

Switching partners can cause miracles . . . as the song says "She could make a blind man see" . . . or something like that.

[cc3]

If you don't know how to deal with women in your home country, you will not be able to relate to women in the FSU.

[AC]

Anyway, you don't need to answer these questions. That pro-daters category I referred to are almost always associated with the pay per xxx agency model: pay per letter, pay per date, etc.

Sounds like this is your problem.  You went to Ukraine hoping to snag a woman from a pay per letter agency, and it did not work out for you.  Hopefully you've learned something from this situation.

[northkape]

northkape,

                Your idea of beautiful and another mans idea of beautiful can be two different things.

A woman who complains about other mens prowess in sex would be a real turn-off for me.

Maybe the mens potency problems were caused by the women having small breasts and/or stretch marks ?

It certainly seems odd these "beautiful" women you know keep meeting men with small dicks,potency problems and sexual complexes...maybe these women need to look at themselves.

Chelseaboy

I think you are reading more into my posting,, than what I said,,
If you go look at it, I didn't say "the most beautiful" or "very beautiful"
I made a general statement about the women I met with as being beautiful.
This statement is of course based on my experience of what is considered to be beautiful among other men, throughout my life. If I had made such a statement about a group of Ferrari sports cars, the statement doesn't need everyone to agree, for it to be objectively true in general.

I don't know, what kind of a man had potency problems or why.
It's just among the complaints that I remember.
And again, I didn't say that all of the women had the same complaints.

Where did I say that these women "keep meeting" men with sexual problems, I said that it was one in the total list of various complaints. 

Also in general, based on my limited experience, I have found Ukraine women to be refreshingly open when it comes to talking about sexual preferences. But maybe I'm just out of sync. with todays society. Maybe this is the "new normal" among all young women today. I have been reading some Scandinavian forums to get updated in the last year or so. And I see a lot of young women discussing their preferences about sizes. In the same way we as men discuss the size of their boobs.
 
 

[mroz87]

Going back to the original question. Today I saw two couples of interest in Kiev. I am almost 99% certain the two guys are foreigners. That means there are still a little action here.

One guy looks totally out of league with his girl. It appears that he is in his late 40s, has a big belly, and looks unkempt. For visualization purpose, picture an out of shape American slumps on his couch with his potato chips and beer watching TV all day. His girl like other local ladies dressed for the kill, and on high heels. I think she's in mid 30s. I am going to guess the lady is a pro-dater, due to the large gap in their leagues.

Another guy is 99% American. He actually looks a little like the Family Guy dude. At least he dressed smarter than the first guy. His lady also dressed for the kill. Their age seems compatible with each other. This combo could be legit.

[mroz87]

I later found out this was while she was banging a guy from Canada in Kiev and getting serious money out of him.

I met that pro-dater in November 2011,and she was an agency girl.

I reckon she was a hooker but figured she would get more financial benefits pro-dating. Kiev was rather famous for hookers years ago, then the popular venues for such solicitations closed one after another, or simply changed. I guess many girls discovered that pro-dating is easier. And they don't need to pimp out their bodies (method explained in my long post).

[RoboCop]

I reckon she was a hooker but figured she would get more financial benefits pro-dating. Kiev was rather famous for hookers years ago, then the popular venues for such solicitations closed one after another, or simply changed. I guess many girls discovered that pro-dating is easier. And they don't need to pimp out their bodies (method explained in my long post).

Very interesting mroz. Before I met my wife I was well aware of the existence of dating scammers, and I'm fortunate that I've never met any during my travels to the FSU. (I only met 3 girls.)

I wonder though if the situation is unique to Ukraine--to have so many scammers. Ukraine does seem to be the most popular country for men to travel too, maybe the girls are taking advantage of the endless supply of foreign men? I mean, if more guys went to Vladivostok, Bishkek, Baku etc. I find it highly unlikely they'd meet as many scammers as you have. Then again, I am aware that Ukraine is cheaper to travel too, and in the eyes of many men, tend to have more attractive women, so I guess you take the good with the bad.

Interesting to hear about the situation in Ukraine. Keep us posted.

Best of luck in your journey mroz, I hope you find your other half.

[mroz87]

Robocop, you met 3 women and you married one. I think the Lord must be looking after you I see that your wife is from Azerbaijan. If I continue my search, I might take the road less taken. Heck, even Poland can be a better place than Ukraine, since it is eastern european and English is widely spoken.

Here in Kiev, I find that I have to do so much assessments (or scammer baitings) it practically takes away the romance. Whatever I do, it seems like a lose-lose situation. Every date costs money whether it involves scammer or not. In the hypothetical scenario where I don't lose money, technically speaking I still lose time, and the opportunity to meet a real genuine woman. I wasn't losing my shirt or anything like that. It's more like I lose some baits without catching any fish, if you can get this analogy. The biggest lost would be a wasted trip, where I could have enjoyed myself in other european cities without any focus on women.

Another side of the issue is that women who are not affiliated with agencies do not like to be tested. Problem is they can still be pro-daters, only difference is these women don't get commission from agency for 'dating' men. The days of women asking to buy fur coat or LV bag is long gone, I believe. Now it's more like dividing up the costs of normally priced daily items and letting a few guys (foreign or local) to foot the total bill. This has little monetary impact for the foreign men, but it is still pro-dating nevertheless. Sure you can get nice dates here and there with beautiful ladies, but you lose because you do not achieve what you set out for....which is finding a long term partner.

I am near the end of my trip, and have only one women left where I have not crossed out yet. I met this woman from a free site, but I still have my doubts whether she is truly sincere. The future prospect is not looking very bright, at least in Ukraine.

[RoboCop]

Robocop, you met 3 women and you married one. I think the Lord must be looking after you I see that your wife is from Azerbaijan. If I continue my search, I might take the road less taken. Heck, even Poland can be a better place than Ukraine, since it is eastern european and English is widely spoken.

Here in Kiev, I find that I have to do so much assessments (or scammer baitings) it practically takes away the romance. Whatever I do, it seems like a lose-lose situation. Every date costs money whether it involves scammer or not. In the hypothetical scenario where I don't lose money, technically speaking I still lose time, and the opportunity to meet a real genuine woman. I wasn't losing my shirt or anything like that. It's more like I lose some baits without catching any fish, if you can get this analogy. The biggest lost would be a wasted trip, where I could have enjoyed myself in other european cities without any focus on women.

Another side of the issue is that women who are not affiliated with agencies do not like to be tested. Problem is they can still be pro-daters, only difference is these women don't get commission from agency for 'dating' men. The days of women asking to buy fur coat or LV bag is long gone, I believe. Now it's more like dividing up the costs of normally priced daily items and letting a few guys (foreign or local) to foot the total bill. This has little monetary impact for the foreign men, but it is still pro-dating nevertheless. Sure you can get nice dates here and there with beautiful ladies, but you lose because you do not achieve what you set out for....which is finding a long term partner.

I am near the end of my trip, and have only one women left where I have not crossed out yet. I met this woman from a free site, but I still have my doubts whether she is truly sincere. The future prospect is not looking very bright, at least in Ukraine.

Yes, compared to the experience of the majority of guys, I know I'm very lucky. Before I even went on my trip, I was lucky in the sense that I was unaware of websites like this, because if I read the travels reports of other guys, who have made multiple trips and spent years finding their significant other, I would have been in despair mode and probably not make the trip I did.

After I got married I started searching for sites like this, where men are married to FSU women or looking for one, and I was shocked to see how common it was for men to have made several trips and still not have found someone, or to have been searching for more than 4 years!

It's confusing to me when I hear experiences like yours, because my experience was just so different. To be honest though, from what I have gathered reading the experiences of other men, I have a few things on my side:

1) I'd just turned 30 when I made my trip. Thus, I was much younger than the majority of guys.

2) I wasn't overweight or obese.

3) I didn't go for girls who looked "Too good to be true."

I went to Vladivostok, Baku and Kiev in that order. I spent 2 weeks in Kiev back in 2010, getting to know one girl Elena. After 3 days I told her there was no chemistry between us and the feeling wasn't mutual, and she spent every other day showing me around Kiev.

Kiev was strange because I saw a lot of old foreign guys, walking around with young Ukrainian women and their interpreters (They were the ones who stood out at least). It was obvious back then most of them were pro-daters (like in the photos), but given the amount of guys here who have wives from the Ukraine, I figured what I saw must of just been the surface of such relationships, and that most guys were successful in Ukraine.

Sounds like things are different in Ukraine to what I thought.

Best of luck with this one last lady. I'm gunning for you mroz.

[mroz87]

Robocop, thanks for your story. I am actually similar age to you, and look nothing like those guys in the photos you attached. You mentioned you have no chemistry with Elena in Kiev, but she spent days showing you Kiev. I think that's very similar to my experience in Kiev. I met girls who would spent days with me, sometimes even show physical attraction, then few days later it dropped down a cliff (no chemistry, parents disagree with her notion of marrying a foreigner and any other lame excuses). The latest experience was with an agency girl (pay per date type). It is an agency that was used to be part of the well known Angelika network that was legit. I used to think there might still be a 10% chance of success going with the more reliable agency, now I am 100% certain this route is useless.

The last standing girl, well, I want to see what you think of her:
We met from a free site. I dropped her a message because my original plan had failed. It's totally unplanned. She seldom logged in and only saw it few days later, but she's quick, and responded with her number straight away. She lives in the ourskirts near airport. And it took her from 45 mins to a little over an hour to get to city center.  But she comes pretty much anytime I ask her out. The minor trouble are the taxi fares which I paid. She didn't quote any ridiculous taxi charge. In the beginning it was always her asking me out. Somewhere down the line she asked me if she doesn't call her, would I call her? She also knew I was meeting another lady. She didn't quite like it, I can tell, but she keeps on calmly anyway. She also told me she is a jealous woman. By the way, she shocked me on Day 2. She brought me into clothing store and wanted to buy a dress. I refused politely, and said I only bought for my girlfriend and said that we only met for two days. She did not throw any tantrum and continued the meeting and spent the night away normally. We still went out the next day and so on. Later on she told me it was a man test. Anyway, I had paid for some of her other stuff, like when she did grocery shopping and metro recharge. She even bought her female hygiene stuff when I was there ...lol. None of these are expensive even after adding up.

Anyway, I'll continue later. I am supposed to meet her soon and have to go.

[mroz87]

Continue from my last post...

Her dating performance failed a bit today in the beginning. She was supposed to text me but she overslept and only woke up after I called her. She slept late yesterday due to some work (nothing sleazy and I knew what she does). Actually there was a bit more story to that. I suspected she didn't feel happy yesterday and couldn't sleep because I was with another lady. Anyway she turned up as soon as she could. She remained starry eyed for a while until we got up to speed again in our conversation. Since I am leaving soon, I gave her some gifts I brought from my country. I also agreed to buy her a dress, as she once liked though she had another one in mind and the price is not too far away.

After lunch once again she brought me to grocery shopping, this time to buy some stuff for cooking in anticipation of her mum's arrival. I paid for this too. It's not expensive. Pro-dating or not, I guess I am leaving soon and don't quite care.  If you are wondering, both of us agreed it's a bit early for meeting the mum, but she did told me that her mum knows about her meetings with me. She also said she is free to choose her partner and her parents' advice is only that, advice.

In the past few meetings, I have heard stories of her travel, her friends, her ex-boyfriend, etc. She is well travelled, beautiful, and certainly have no issue finding a man. She's even taller than me, but she said she doesn't care. Seeing that I might be a bit out of her league, I asked what she likes about me. She said I am different from other guys who are boastful and trying to 'buy' her.

Anyway, there is just a little quirks that I am not too comfortable with. She doesn't take photo with me. She said she is a bit reserved. Maybe she doesn't want her photos with a number of men she met get circulated online and only will take photo when I am officially her boyfriend (if that happens at all). Anyway, all scammers and pro-daters I met so far were willing to take photos so this by itself is not technically a deal breaker. Another thing is we had not been too passionate. It did not go further than crossing hands and kisses on her cheeks. From conversation, I sense that she is holding out because she is still afraid I might be seeing other girls, though I told her today I want to date her exclusively and mention that I will be back to see her again in a few months time. I told her I want to visit her only.

As it is standing now, I will be meeting her again tonight for dinner.

[BillyB]

By the way, she shocked me on Day 2. She brought me into clothing store and wanted to buy a dress. I refused politely, and said I only bought for my girlfriend and said that we only met for two days. Later on she told me it was a man test.

She tells you she's jealous and asks you to buy her a dress on day 2? It may be a test to see if you're stingy but it's also very bad manners in any culture. No excuses for her, she has character flaws and if she does it to you, she does it to everybody she dates on day 2 unless it's guy she really likes and doesn't want to insult him the same way she did you.

I had paid for some of her other stuff, like when she did grocery shopping and metro recharge. She even bought her female hygiene stuff when I was there ...lol.

I went grocery shopping with a few ladies I was serious with and I enjoy the food when they ladies cooked it for me. On a date, all a man is obligated to buy is the dinner. A guy should also pay for the ladies transportation to get to the date if he doesn't pick her up. Her asking you to buy her female hygiene stuff is also bad manners. She views you as her personal walking wallet.

She was supposed to text me but she overslept and only woke up after I called her.

She goes to work on time. Aren't you important too? You just met and she's supposed to put her best foot forward. I hope you didn't have to wait for hours in your room before she finally answered your call.

I suspected she didn't feel happy yesterday and couldn't sleep because I was with another lady.

When a guy meets multiple ladies on a trip, he needs to be clear he's dating the ladies as friends first. Are you sure she's unhappy because you diverted your attention elsewhere or she had to get out of bed early to see you?

I also agreed to buy her a dress, as she once liked though she had another one in mind and the price is not too far away.

After lunch once again she brought me to grocery shopping, this time to buy some stuff for cooking in anticipation of her mum's arrival. I paid for this too.

You said she likes you because you are different than the other guys and you don't try to buy her love and here you go and be like the other guys and buy what she wants to gain her affection. Challenge yourself to win the lady over with who you are, not with what's in your wallet.

It's not expensive. Pro-dating or not, I guess I am leaving soon and don't quite care. 
 

You don't care but you want to enter into a relationship with this woman? You should care when a woman you just met takes you on multiple shopping sprees.

It did not go further than crossing hands and kisses on her cheeks. From conversation, I sense that she is holding out because she is still afraid I might be seeing other girls, though I told her today I want to date her exclusively and mention that I will be back to see her again in a few months time. I told her I want to visit her only.

You've said she's holding out, you're uncomfortable with some things and she's shown you red flags and you are ready to dedicate months of your life solely to her now and till your next trip? She hasn't shown you any indication she likes you and you are ready to dedicate your life to her? As it stands now she is not "into you" and you do not know if she likes your wallet or you better. Of course she will probably accept you coming back since you will take her shopping again. If she has an ounce of decency, she will tell you not to come back.

As it is standing now, I will be meeting her again tonight for dinner.

I know for a fact there are much better women in the FSU that will give you no doubts. For every moment you spend with the wrong woman, you are losing time with the right woman. Cut your losses and look for the right woman.

[Boethius]

mroz87, you come across as a control freak.    Do both yourself and FSUW a favour and give up on them.
 
 

[Chelseaboy]

Boethius,

                Where in the meetings with the last girl he's dating in Kiev does mroz87 come across as a control freak ?

Seems to me it's developing into a familiar pattern of a Ukraine girl doing the controlling over a foreign man/suitor.

He's buying her gifts already before they've even kissed....another one trying to impress a girl with the buying power of his wallet.

BillyB has it spot-on.
 

[Boethius]

An overall impression from his posts.

[ML]

I was on dates (not just coffee at an Agency) with over 80 FSU women.

Not one asked me to buy them anything.

But, of course, I went through an extensive screening process covering 6 weeks of emails before going on these dates.

Even during that phase, I only had to drop a few that were perhaps pro-daters.

Don't know how some guys keep coming up with those types.

Sure, I ended up spending a lot of money on some of them for subsequent trips, etc.  But the several dates (with some of them) on a first trip to their city were meals and theatre tickets only.

[mroz87]

Oh boy....here it goes again. The reason I wrote is because I want some feedback from robocop, as we are both similar age during the pursuit and we were targeting the similar range of women (under 30, no kids, not divorced).

As a digression, somebody please show me a recent success story where a foreign man has been bagging young FSU women (meeting the criteria above) left and right within the last few years. Even the scams and dupes are all drying up as I observed. I am aware some members here may have strong opinions about everything. Thanks for responding anyway and I do appreciate it. You guys may consider yourself lucky for getting a women from FSU. If I don't get a FSU woman, then that's probably my fate and I harbor no ill feelings. There are other places with beautiful women and it is not the end of the world.

Being an armchair critic is easy. The situation can be a bit more complex in real life. It is neither that I am completely stupid, nor the lady is completely scandalous. I brought small gifts that serve as souvenirs. The cost is really not so much to be able to 'buy' someone. And I don't simply give to any women, as you can tell I am only giving at the end of my trip. Giving to this lady does not mean automatic green light for her. She's the only one left, and I don't bring back the souvenirs I brought initially. Plus, she told me she used to have one of the souvenir. Maybe she bought it herself? Maybe her friend? Maybe another man? I don't care really. Also, there are Tiffany and Co, Burberry, LV and other luxury shops. These were never implied or hinted at me.

I am leaving soon and time does not allow me to have other options. As an analogy, it's like sitting at a poker table with little chips left. I am not going to be tournament champion, but let's enjoy the rest of it. As for the lady, she was on her way back, and seeing she could take a taxi, then she thought of just buying some grocery including her personal items. I do not need to follow her, and if I did not, then she would pay for it herself.

After dinner tonight, I think she is also going to Gulliver to get some other things before taking taxi home. She mentioned that during dinner and I thought she was going to bring me for shopping spree again. At the end she asked me to stay and finish my drink since it is still early. She has to go earlier than expected due to an unexpected incident related to an earlier event that I am aware of.

Added this:
No. I didn't get stood up for hours when she overslept this morning. I called, then she came as fast as possible. She could come a little later some days, but that's normal due to traffic jam into the city, something I had also experienced before when trying to get into city. There was a day the snow was so heavy I could barely walk. That slowed me down immensely and I was late for 40 minutes. She waited for me.

She doesn't go to work on time. Her work is a little different. Sometimes she pushes her work to other times in order to meet me.

[jone]

I was on dates (not just coffee at an Agency) with over 80 FSU women.

Not one asked me to buy them anything.

But, of course, I went through an extensive screening process covering 6 weeks of emails before going on these dates.

Even during that phase, I only had to drop a few that were perhaps pro-daters.

Don't know how some guys keep coming up with those types.

Sure, I ended up spending a lot of money on some of them for subsequent trips, etc.  But the several dates (with some of them) on a first trip to their city were meals and theatre tickets only.

What about the Peanut Butter?

[BillyB]

The reason I wrote is because I want some feedback from robocop, as we are both similar age during the pursuit and we were targeting the similar range of women (under 30, no kids, not divorced).

People of any age or gender can give you solid advice about the lady you're currently seeing. We've read enough stories and the song and dance you're experiencing is familiar to us.

Being an armchair critic is easy. The situation can be a bit more complex in real life.

True and because us folks at the forum don't have an emotional or financial investment in your dating trip, we can give you a good read on what we're seeing from the outside. Being emotionally invested in a woman can prevent a guy from making rational decisions. She's tall, got long legs and is beautiful and the thought of a few nights of bliss is making you think of hanging onto her but you may encounter a life of hell instead if she's the wrong woman.


In your last post you've been defending her but in yesterday's post you said "I am near the end of my trip, and have only one women left where I have not crossed out yet. I met this woman from a free site, but I still have my doubts whether she is truly sincere. The future prospect is not looking very bright, at least in Ukraine." Today you're talking about committing to only her. You've written nothing between yesterday and today that puts her in a better light. Why the sudden change of heart? I hope it's not because she's the last of the ladies you've dated and you don't want to go home empty handed.

[ML]

What about the Peanut Butter?

I prefer to use whipped cream.  The gals seem to prefer it also.

[Jumper]

While I think dating several is fine, if you are up front about it,
what men here  think or feel doesn't matter, its how the women feel
 that effects your dating experiences.

She seldom logged in and only saw it few days later, but she's quick, and responded with her number straight away. She lives in the ourskirts near airport. And it took her from 45 mins to a little over an hour to get to city center.  But she comes pretty much anytime I ask her out. The minor trouble are the taxi fares which I paid. She didn't quote any ridiculous taxi charge. In the beginning it was always her asking me out. Somewhere down the line she asked me if she doesn't call her, would I call her? She also knew I was meeting another lady. She didn't quite like it, I can tell, but she keeps on calmly anyway. She also told me she is a jealous woman. By the way, she shocked me on Day 2

 You dated others, made time for her when you decided to,and she has complied.
 That's fine of course, but I do think this colors your initial meetings and may cause her reservations about a relationship.


Trust me I've heard every side of WMVM /WOVO ,done both myself, but again it doesn't matter what I or I -net pundits think or feel, it matter what the one woman you are dating feels about it.
Some are fine with it, others not.
This woman already stated she really wasn't, and in my opinion hit you up for a dress because why not? You are just another foreigner serial dating in her city, a city where most any foreign guy staying is going to be considered sex tourist, until he proves without a doubt, by actions, otherwise.
So her guard is up.Most every UW's is.
 I don't say it justifies her actions, but I am fairly certain your actions while their (innocent or not)  colors her responses.

My wife was 28,and I met her in 2010 dating through 2011.
Plenty of her friends are still there,  single, sincere, and looking.
Granted its a provincial city, and not Kiev, which seemed generally jaded to foreign men wife hunting , even back in 2001.


I'd say Kiev has been a difficult place to do anything more than date in a long time,and doubt its gotten any better, really why should it?

I'd think any city with a large MOB or affiliate agency presence is gong to be a tough go with a visit many style.