Russian Women Discussion

RWD News From the Front => Russian Front Discussion => Topic started by: Bounder on November 14, 2016, 01:18:16 AM

Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 14, 2016, 01:18:16 AM
JayH was tired of discussing the bad news in Ukraine under the "More Bad News for Russia" thread, so I decided to start a new one to rectify the problem.

I don't even know where to begin on this topic.  There is so much bad news for Ukraine.  I suppose when they realize that Russia is their proper bed mate, there may be less to post under this thread!  :D
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on November 14, 2016, 09:28:01 AM
There is so much bad news for Ukraine.  I suppose when they realize that Russia is their proper bed mate,


If one lies in bed with the Devil, they're going to get fukced. Hopefully Ukraine can get out from being Russia's bitch. They had their chance to bring Ukraine prosperity. We'll see if Trump keeps his campaign promise that Russia won't go into Ukraine any further if he's president.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 14, 2016, 09:38:18 AM
JayH was tired of discussing the bad news in Ukraine under the "More Bad News for Russia" thread, so I decided to start a new one to rectify the problem.

I don't even know where to begin on this topic.  There is so much bad news for Ukraine.  I suppose when they realize that Russia is their proper bed mate, there may be less to post under this thread!  :D

I doubt, very much, that Russia will be Ukraine's proper bed mate until there is significant change in the way Russia is governed.  While there is plenty wrong in Ukraine, most of the Ukrainians understand that to have any success as a country requires them going it alone.  Think in terms of a woman in a marriage that is continually beaten.  She has no choice but to seek her own life. 

One only needs to look at Ukraine's neighbor to the Northwest, Poland, to understand that a future without Russia entails a significant increase in the standard of living.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 14, 2016, 06:03:11 PM
JayH was tired of discussing the bad news in Ukraine under the "More Bad News for Russia" thread, so I decided to start a new one to rectify the problem.

I don't even know where to begin on this topic.  There is so much bad news for Ukraine.  I suppose when they realize that Russia is their proper bed mate, there may be less to post under this thread!  :D

The was no where that I said that-- the actual quote is below and is clear enough.
Funny how the petty little promotoers of Kremlin bs  seek to troll  and misrepresent ad nauseum .
BTW-- what happened to your "respect" for Ukrainian dead as a result of Russia's actions? No answer required--your attitude is already clear to all.



"One of the things that amuses me( not) on the forum is that when the thread title is  --

MORE BAD NEWS FOR RUSSIA

and topics of what is bad news for Russia are posted is that we have seen a procession of posters attempting to divert the thread into a negative discussion about Ukraine  -- sort of shows what is in the heads of those people doesn't it?

There are plenty of threads about Ukraine on the forum."
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17720.5075
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 14, 2016, 06:10:14 PM
There is no doubt that there is bad news all too often in Ukraine -- and a remarkable amount of it is caused  by Russia.

From interfering in every aspect of Ukrainian life from politics to conducting a military invasion of eastern Ukraine and Crimea.

Virtually every day people are dying  as a result of Russia's actions.

Situation developments in Donbas demonstrate a total aggravation (UPDATE)

Update: The press office for Ukraine's Defense Ministry has informed about one civilian killed during the militant attack against the village of Tonenke near Avdiivka, Donetsk sector.

Story: For the past day, Russian-backed proxies have fired at the Ukrainian army positions 64 times using artillery and grenade launchers, according to Ukraine's ATO HQ report.

There have been 15 cease-fire violations in the Luhansk direction, 6 – in Donetsk and 43 – in Mariupol sector.

http://uatoday.tv/crime/situation-developments-in-donbas-demonstrate-a-total-aggravation-804969.html
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 14, 2016, 06:16:49 PM
For the op who was not happy that the bad news in Ukraine is not being reported-there is an endless supply of stories --or perhaps you would like to question the accuracy of the sources?


Russia sends more armour to Donbas: 2 Ukrainian soldiers killed (map)

Ukrainian troops forced to fight back militant attacks, and Russia reportedly sends more tanks to Donbas

Russia-backed militants violate the truce along the whole front line in Donbas, Ukrainian troops return fire at the major positions, Defense Ministry spokesman on ATO issues Col. Andriy Lysenko reported today. By his data, two Ukrainian soldiers were killed and two more wounded due to Russian proxies' attacks during last 24 hours. The militants' attacks were reported along the whole front line.


http://uatoday.tv/crime/russia-sends-more-armour-to-donbas-2-ukrainian-soldiers-killed-804714.html
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 15, 2016, 08:42:00 PM
The was no where that I said that-- the actual quote is below and is clear enough.
Funny how the petty little promotoers of Kremlin bs  seek to troll  and misrepresent ad nauseum .
BTW-- what happened to your "respect" for Ukrainian dead as a result of Russia's actions? No answer required--your attitude is already clear to all.



"One of the things that amuses me( not) on the forum is that when the thread title is  --

MORE BAD NEWS FOR RUSSIA

and topics of what is bad news for Russia are posted is that we have seen a procession of posters attempting to divert the thread into a negative discussion about Ukraine  -- sort of shows what is in the heads of those people doesn't it?

There are plenty of threads about Ukraine on the forum."
http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=17720.5075

I haven't been doing anything ad nauseum.  I find that this forum is overall very pro-Ukrainian and that's okay.  But since I have a different view, I thought I would present it to make things a little for interesting.  You seem to have difficulty handling the idea that someone would present a more pro-Russian view.  I don't think Russia is perfect, but if I start criticizing Russia, I'll just have posters ad nauseum agreeing with me.  And that would be boring  and useless to the point of being nauseous!

I feel that if I have showed disrespect to those that have died in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine I would have been banned from here by now.  I don't have disrespect for them, and I have told you that.  I think every person who dies in human conflict represents a personal tragedy and it is sad beyond words for those most directly affected.

As far as blaming it all on "Russia's actions", I guess I should expect much more from someone who reads the Euromaidan press for his news and gospel.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 16, 2016, 12:15:06 AM
I feel that if I have showed disrespect to those that have died in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine I would have been banned from here by now.


This isn't the other forum.  No one gets banned here for their opinions, no matter how repugnant they are.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 16, 2016, 12:28:06 AM

This isn't the other forum.  No one gets banned here for their opinions, no matter how repugnant they are.

As I understand you govern this forum, if you find my opinions repugnant and feel I show disrespect to people who have died in the conflict in Ukraine, or anywhere else for that matter, then I will excuse myself from this forum.

I do not disrespect any dead.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 16, 2016, 12:31:43 AM
Sorry, I know you have Ukrainian connections and so do I by the way.  I have been "enriching" my comments.  Did you notice who I was responding to?  Maybe that gives a clue why I have been inclined to go over the top.

But if you can't just take a differing viewpoint on these issues, then let me leave you to your Ukrainian safespace.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 16, 2016, 12:52:38 AM
I do not "govern" this forum.  You shouldn't listen to the malcontents in chat.

Ask the many posters who have clashed with me over the years whether or not they are restricted from posting here.  My self worth is not tied to whether or not someone on the internet disagrees with me.


Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 16, 2016, 12:56:44 AM
Sorry, I know you have Ukrainian connections and so do I by the way.  I have been "enriching" my comments.  Did you notice who I was responding to?  Maybe that gives a clue why I have been inclined to go over the top.

But if you can't just take a differing viewpoint on these issues, then let me leave you to your Ukrainian safespace.

So pointing out that you were factually inaccurate is requiring a "safe space"?  You're a little old to be a college student/millenial special snowflake, are you not?

I don't have "Ukrainian connections".  I have family in Ukraine.  I have lived in Ukraine.  I speak Ukrainian fluently.  I went to Ukrainian schools as a child, studied Ukrainian history from the time I was eight, recited Shevchenko and Franko, just as did tens of thousands of Canadian-Ukrainian children.   My better half is part Russian, and has, as he refers to it, a "Kremlin approved" surname.  My children have Russian blood, and carry that Russian surname.  So, given I sleep with a Russian, I can hardly be looking for a "safe" Ukrainian space.


If you disagree, that is fine by me.  But you should at least base those disagreements on actual facts.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 16, 2016, 01:11:15 AM
I haven't been doing anything ad nauseum.  I find that this forum is overall very pro-Ukrainian and that's okay.  But since I have a different view, I thought I would present it to make things a little for interesting.  You seem to have difficulty handling the idea that someone would present a more pro-Russian view.  I don't think Russia is perfect, but if I start criticizing Russia, I'll just have posters ad nauseum agreeing with me.  And that would be boring  and useless to the point of being nauseous!

I feel that if I have showed disrespect to those that have died in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine I would have been banned from here by now.  I don't have disrespect for them, and I have told you that.  I think every person who dies in human conflict represents a personal tragedy and it is sad beyond words for those most directly affected.

As far as blaming it all on "Russia's actions", I guess I should expect much more from someone who reads the Euromaidan press for his news and gospel.


You seem to think the situation is like some football match--where you barrack for one side. Labelling the forum as pro-Ukraine  is an example of your thinking.

Your petty carping over criticism and negative posts about Russia supports that. You have constantly alleged ( incorrectly) that I and others see no flaws in Ukraine

You mention the other forum --which is blatantly  anti Ukrainian and in fact-receives financial support from the Russian troll factory.One gets banned there ( as many of our members here are)  simply by disagreeing with the proprietor --in my case -I got banned  there for my comments on this forum !!  You only have to read at any given time to see a clear bias - against Ukraine.
 Now here you whine that I have a problem with someone presenting a "more Russian" view  -- all you have done is repeat Russian bs that has been aired a 1000 times before.  You lace your posts with potential half truths in the attempt to provoke - I see it as pathetic.
 It makes me wonder why someone would be so obtuse -- to have their head in the sand to such a degree.

You have kept attempting to attribute a position I do not hold to me -repeatedly stating that I attempt to blame Russia for "all" of Ukraine's problems.
Fact is--it would be a lot simpler for Ukraine to be moving forward faster if it did not have to deal with Russia.

You ought to recognise that Russia has been repeatedly been  outsmarted in Ukraine. Russia pulled the wrong rein when it attempted to takeover Ukraine. Now -Ukraine has made significant economic progress--the military is now far more capable-- and soon will present a real challenge to Russia.
Can you imagine the reaction is Moscow when their military starts getting their arses handed to them on a plate!!

Russia has paid-- and is going to pay a huge price for the miscalculation over Ukraine.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 16, 2016, 01:23:17 AM


I feel that if I have showed disrespect to those that have died in the conflict in Eastern Ukraine I would have been banned from here by now.  I don't have disrespect for them, and I have told you that.  I think every person who dies in human conflict represents a personal tragedy and it is sad beyond words for those most directly affected.


You have and are showing disrespect . The country is UKRAINE

It is not- and never has been "The " Ukraine.

Your thread title is deliberately disrespectful  -- and shows your ignorance in your quest to use those  words  to describe Ukraine  because it came naturally to you?

Funnily enough  (not)  you and another current clown poster attempts to divert threads    are the classic troll strategy used on a world wide basis -leaves me wondering.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 16, 2016, 01:30:40 AM
You have and are showing disrespect . The country is UKRAINE

It is not- and never has been "The " Ukraine.

Your thread title is deliberately respectful  -- and shows your ignorance in your quest to use those  words  to describe Ukraine  because it came naturally to you?

Serious countries don't spend their oxygen whining and complaining about how they are called.  And only dodgy countries get the crown "The" put before their noun name.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 16, 2016, 01:47:22 AM
It isn't the country that has referred to the use of articles.  It's just poor grammar.
Title: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: mhr7 on November 16, 2016, 02:51:50 AM
Serious countries don't spend their oxygen whining and complaining about how they are called.  And only dodgy countries get the crown "The" put before their noun name.

Like The United States of America or The United Kingdom?
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 16, 2016, 05:39:27 AM
Like The United States of America or The United Kingdom?

I was thinking of those ones, too!  ;D  However, he might have a point with The Gambia, or The Democratic People's Republic of Korea.  :-[
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: ML on November 16, 2016, 07:32:07 AM
Hey gang, we have been over this many times before.

There are only two groups of countries which require the article in English: Those with plural names such as the United States or the Netherlands. The others have names with adjectival or compound forms which require the article, such as the United Kingdom, the Dominion of Canada, etc.

There is one case in which the country decided to use The as part of it's official name.  The Gambia.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Gator on November 16, 2016, 08:56:11 AM


There is one case in which the country decided to use The as part of it's official name.  The Gambia.

Who knows - Gambia is not plural or it would be Gambiae.  Gambia is an identical plural.

ML, excellent explanation.  Thanks.    You must have learned this at The Ohio State University.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: ML on November 16, 2016, 10:01:33 AM
To further clarify, some countries require 'the' before their names.  i.e. the plural, adjectival or compound forms.  In these cases 'the' is not capitalized.

However, The Gambia requires a capitalized 'The' because the country chose the two words as its official name.

The Gambia did not chose this name because of any plural, adjectival or compound reason . . . the country just wanted the name The Gambia.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: mhr7 on November 16, 2016, 11:31:09 AM
To further clarify, some countries require 'the' before their names.  i.e. the plural, adjectival or compound forms.  In these cases 'the' is not capitalized.

However, The Gambia requires a capitalized 'The' because the country chose the two words as its official name.

The Gambia did not chose this name because of any plural, adjectival or compound reason . . . the country just wanted the name The Gambia.

I've never come across or thought about the capitalization of 'the' before a country name, interesting.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: AkMike on November 16, 2016, 11:56:51 AM
Nevermind.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 16, 2016, 05:06:56 PM
Okay.  The United States is?   Or:
The United States are?
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 16, 2016, 05:18:21 PM
Okay.  The United States is?   Or:
The United States are?

It's a single country (same as The Netherlands), so it IS what it is.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 16, 2016, 05:21:06 PM
But you never watched National: Treasure Book of Secrets.  In it, they said that until after the Civil War it was always:  The United States are ....  making sure that everyone knew that the States took precedence over the federal government. 

Cute little history fact.  And thank you for indulging me.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 16, 2016, 05:24:54 PM
But you never watched National: Treasure Book of Secrets.  In it, they said that until after the Civil War it was always:  The United States are ....  making sure that everyone knew that the States took precedence over the federal government. 

In which case, what was the point of federation?  People might just as well have remained citizens of Virginia, Massachusetts, or wherever.

Cute little history fact.  And thank you for indulging me.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 16, 2016, 05:25:57 PM
Smart Azz. 

You would pull up two states that weren't states at all.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 16, 2016, 06:03:33 PM

The ongoing "peace" in the east continues to be violated.

Kyiv records 14 cases of shelling in Donbas

Positions of Ukrainian troops in Donbas were shelled 14 times on Nov. 16, the Kyiv headquarters of the military operation in eastern Ukraine said.

The separatists repeatedly shelled Vodyane, Opytne, Novotroyitske, Pavlopil, Krymske, Berdyanske and Avdiyivka using 82mm and 120mm mortars, grenade launchers, large-caliber machineguns and small arms throughout the day, the press center for the headquarters said on Facebook.

A sniper also fired at Pavlopil and Novotroyitske.
http://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politics/kyiv-records-14-cases-shelling-donbas.html
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: ML on November 16, 2016, 08:36:00 PM
Okay.  The United States is?   Or:
The United States are?

When a proper name is involved, the fact that there are some plural components is of no consequence.

References using this proper name are to the single object.
Hence . . . the United States is the greatest country.

It might help to think of other examples, e.g. General Motors.

We should know it would be wrong to say that General Motors are a well known auto manufacturer.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 17, 2016, 05:18:40 PM
When a proper name is involved, the fact that there are some plural components is of no consequence.

References using this proper name are to the single object.
Hence . . . the United States is the greatest country.

It might help to think of other examples, e.g. General Motors.

We should know it would be wrong to say that General Motors are a well known auto manufacturer.

And yet people still use the plural conjunction for singular names in such cases, without it sounding too weird.  For example, "Chevrolet ARE a well-known ..."

I don't know about the USA, but this is actually quite common usage here.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: SANDRO43 on November 18, 2016, 05:40:50 PM
And yet people still use the plural conjunction for singular names in such cases, without it sounding too weird.  For example, "Chevrolet ARE a well-known ..."I don't know about the USA, but this is actually quite common usage here.
Are you sure they don't say ChevroletS, or RollS, FordS, ToyotaS, FerrariS, etc.?
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 18, 2016, 05:43:19 PM
Are you sure they don't say ChevroletS, or RollS, FordS, ToyotaS, FerrariS, etc.?

Ever the proper linguist!   :clapping:
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 18, 2016, 06:01:52 PM
Are you sure they don't say ChevroletS, or RollS, FordS, ToyotaS, FerrariS, etc.?


RollS    is Rolls Royce -never seen spelt with a capital S !!!

Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: AkMike on November 18, 2016, 07:36:41 PM
Ever the proper linguist!   :clapping:


Perhaps,sometimes a cunning one too.   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: SANDRO43 on November 19, 2016, 06:00:07 AM
RollS is Rolls Royce -never seen spelt with a capital S !!!
I know, I wrote SAY, not WRITE :wallbash:. I put the S there for emphasis :rolleyes:.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 20, 2016, 05:00:34 PM
Are you sure they don't say ChevroletS, or RollS, FordS, ToyotaS, FerrariS, etc.?

I'm quite sure.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: SANDRO43 on November 20, 2016, 06:06:19 PM
I'm quite sure.
Maybe because for a long time there was only ONE Chevy in NZ ;D?

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/1958-chevy-impala-chevrolet-archives.jpg#ActualImage)
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 20, 2016, 06:09:19 PM
Maybe because for a long time there was only ONE Chevy in NZ ;D?

Sure - just like there was ONE Thunderbird, ONE Mustang, ONE Cadillac...
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Stirlitz on November 23, 2016, 04:29:54 AM
There is a lot of bad news for Ukraine but the worst news takes 99.9%.

The Russian Federation/USSR/Russian Empire/Muscovy/Golden Horde/Mordor (whatever you call it) still exists.

By the way, this is bad news for the entire free world, not just Ukraine. It was bad news for Ukraine in 1240 and in 1654, Poland in 1772 and 1939, Crimea in 1783, China in 18xx, Baltic states and Finland in 1940, Hungary in 1956, Israel in 1960s through 1980s, Czechoslovakia in 1968, Afghanistan in 1979, Moldova in 1992, Georgia in 1992 and 2008, Syria in 2015 to name just a few...
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on November 28, 2016, 09:28:06 PM
I find that this forum is overall very pro-Ukrainian and that's okay.
It's not okay. A forum like this must be neutral. It's a forum mostly dedicated to dating women in former USSR. Why should it be a pro Ukrainian one? There are a few ethnic Ukrainians that live in the West who are loud and very anti Russian. I said it's a good idea to visit Ukraine, they said it's bad idea to visit Russia and so on and so forth. Those guys are trolling this great forum and turning it into another place for pointless political arguments about nothing.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 28, 2016, 11:17:23 PM
It's not okay. A forum like this must be neutral. It's a forum mostly dedicated to dating women in former USSR. Why should it be a pro Ukrainian one? There are a few ethnic Ukrainians that live in the West who are loud and very anti Russian. I said it's a good idea to visit Ukraine, they said it's bad idea to visit Russia and so on and so forth. Those guys are trolling this great forum and turning it into another place for pointless political arguments about nothing.

Rubbish.
Neutral? Like you? What a joke.
Let me make a couple of points as to why ludicrous posts like you consistently make are totally relevent-even when politically charged.

Any guy(or girl) who is considering any association with anyone from the FSU needs to understand the degree that the craziness of the ideas you have expressed  makes that person an unacceptable future partner.
For guys --be warned-- if  some crazy stupid Russian bitch believes the sort of crap promoted by this guy--run and then run faster & keep running!

For guys heading to Ukraine -- understanding that expressing ideas like this guy keeps pushing will see the door shut in your face -or worse!   Russia and Putin is on the nose big time in Ukraine.
This is no light hearted left or right discussion--this is a brutal reality of people being killed,maimed,injured- a displaced people humanitarian crisis.Many have relatives and friends with extreme hurt as a result of Putin and Russia's actions-there is nothing nice about it.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 29, 2016, 01:38:08 AM
To say that this guy is unacceptable as a future partner because you are in disagreement on what can be a highly charged issue is way over the top. 
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on November 29, 2016, 01:41:23 AM
To say that this guy is unacceptable as a future partner because you are in disagreement on what can be a highly charged issue is way over the top.


No -- it shows the brain has a problem with the wiring. Or maybe a change of medication is needed. :cluebat:
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 29, 2016, 01:56:38 AM
Strange way to think about anyone who has a different view than you.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: msmob on November 29, 2016, 03:17:51 AM
JayH

Do you know anything about folks viewpoints changing as a result of a change of situ

Before I travelled to the Levant / FSU I had a conservative pallet, didn't even drink tea, thought the Brits were 100 percent right re Ireland .....etc., etc.,

My soon to be ex Russian Wife thought the Ukrainian language was bucolic and didn't trust Ukrainians  - ten came here and lived amongst them.

I don't blame folk almost brought up to believe one perspective is 'right' to not question their own perspective.

My best Russian mate and long term biz associate is Russian - served in the Soviet Red army and are discussions / arguments are legendary...  We often think each other 'crazy' in our stances.

In fact I'd say your wiring was similar to someone's entrenched with an opposing viewpoint  - you just got fed differing data perspective.....

Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 29, 2016, 04:12:41 AM
It's not okay. A forum like this must be neutral. It's a forum mostly dedicated to dating women in former USSR. Why should it be a pro Ukrainian one? There are a few ethnic Ukrainians that live in the West who are loud and very anti Russian. I said it's a good idea to visit Ukraine, they said it's bad idea to visit Russia and so on and so forth. Those guys are trolling this great forum and turning it into another place for pointless political arguments about nothing.


I am the only ethnic Ukrainian on this forum, AFAIK.  I have never posted it is a bad idea to visit Russia.  My children have a Russian surname and Russian blood, so I am hardly anti Russian.  But I make no apology for denouncing the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Faux Pas on November 29, 2016, 07:24:07 AM
It's not okay. A forum like this must be neutral. It's a forum mostly dedicated to dating women in former USSR. Why should it be a pro Ukrainian one? There are a few ethnic Ukrainians that live in the West who are loud and very anti Russian. I said it's a good idea to visit Ukraine, they said it's bad idea to visit Russia and so on and so forth. Those guys are trolling this great forum and turning it into another place for pointless political arguments about nothing.

The more pointed difference is Ukrainians are not invading, annexing Russia and killing Russians. If your head wasn't stuck so far up your anus you would see and recognize what's happening as most posters here do. Yes, that situation lends itself to garner ample Ukrainian sympathy and support. I love Russia. My wife is Russian and she shares my sentiment. You are attempting to defend the indefensible.

It is "okay" and the forum doesn't have to be anything at all to your liking. Contrary to your belief it is not anti-Russian. Lately it does seem to have an anti death and destruction position at the hands of a Russian dictator atmosphere however.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on November 29, 2016, 11:11:02 AM
For guys heading to Ukraine -- understanding that expressing ideas like this guy keeps pushing will see the door shut in your face -or worse!   Russia and Putin is on the nose big time in Ukraine.
This is no light hearted left or right discussion--this is a brutal reality of people being killed,maimed,injured- a displaced people humanitarian crisis.Many have relatives and friends with extreme hurt as a result of Putin and Russia's actions-there is nothing nice about it.

There's somebody for everybody. No matter how radical you think somebody's beliefs are, there is a woman or man for that person that believes the same. Even the guy that showed up here obsessed with aliens has  a chance. It may be hard to find a woman that have beliefs like him but she's out there.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on November 29, 2016, 04:33:58 PM
The more pointed difference is Ukrainians are not invading, annexing Russia and killing Russians. If your head wasn't stuck so far up your anus you would see and recognize what's happening as most posters here do. Yes, that situation lends itself to garner ample Ukrainian sympathy and support. I love Russia. My wife is Russian and she shares my sentiment. You are attempting to defend the indefensible.

Totally agree.  This is the main point that nearly everyone has been trying to make for the last couple of years.  It's only those whose attitudes are totally blinkered that can't see this.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on November 29, 2016, 08:37:10 PM
I highly doubt that most people in Ukraine consider Bandera and UPA heroes. I'm sure lots of people in Ukraine doesn't mind having Russian as a second state language. And I'm sure lots of Ukrainians want to fight corruption.
Even Klichko said that Bandera was not his hero. Klichko speaks Russian. And he's a Kiev mayor. And here come a few nobodies like my opponents who are rude and intolerant who try to preach me morals. Not only that, they think that they have a right to frighten  potential visitors to Ukraine. According to them, one has to change his life views just to visit safely Ukraine. I've been living in Russia for 3,5 years already and I openly express my opinion about Putin. It doesn't mean that I specifically express that in public. No. But if someone asks me, I would tell. Though most Russians would disagree with me, incl. my wife. And if it's really all that dangerous to come to Ukraine, then you can come to Russia and date here. It's generally safe here.

Moreover, when someone from the West comes to date in such a corrupt country like Ukraine, he must be ready that his future wife considers a bribe normal. When you date across the world, you must be ready to accept differences in mentality. Most regular people don't care too much about politics in Russia, especially women. They would change their views the minute they land in JFK.

You keep talking about invasion, annexation and killings. And I said that there's no connection between dating someone and the policy of the government in a country where she lives. Let's say if Vietnam invades Korea and a few thousands of Koreans die. Would that mean that I must avoid Vietnamese women? It's a total bs. Not only because that particular Vietnamese woman might be against the policies of her government, but also she could be too scared to go against the flow. I might disagree with some stuff that Putin does, but I didn't come to live in Russia to support Putin. I have my own reasons that have nothing to do with politics. It didn't bother me as a child what Brezhnev was doing in Afghanistan, why should it bother me what Putin does in Syria? I disagree with both of them, so what? There's no Russia # 2 somewhere without Putin. So if I want to live in Russia, then I have to accept Putin as President whether I support him or not. It's sad that people die in Ukraine because of a military conflict in Donbass. But people die everywhere. In just one year about 800 people were killed in Israel in terrorist acts. It was about 15 years ago when there was a second Intifada. According to your stupid logic, one from, say, Australia shouldn't date an Arab woman, 'cos Arab terrorists kill Jews? I dated an Egyptian woman in the US. Though I think she was Christian. US invaded Iraq and many thousands of Iraqis died. Does it mean that one shouldn't marry an American? Why do you apply different standards to Russia?
As I said before, you live by double standards. You can live anyway you like, just don't tell others what to do and to which country to go to get married. Mind your own business.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: alex330 on November 29, 2016, 08:43:59 PM
Moreover, when someone from the West comes to date in such a corrupt country like Ukraine, he must be ready that his future wife considers a bribe normal.


Growing up in LATAM I actually find a bribe more convenient and practical in some cases.....  ;D


I can imagine some of the men here may have even had experience with it in getting some paperwork done in the FSU before their wives arrived.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on November 29, 2016, 09:04:41 PM
I talked once in Kharkov with Ukrainian immigration officer about me possibly applying for a citizenship in Ukraine. It was a terrible experience. Russian immigration officials seem like angels to me after that experience in Kharkov. Old stupid immigration female officer in Kharkov literally told me "What do you want from Ukraine". And it's in a country where I have every right to live as a citizen. Here in Russia they are much more polite. I got my Russian citizenship and before that a permanent and temporary residences without any problems. Except the long lines in the office.
In Ukraine the attitude is much worse than here. Again, it's a generalization. But it's true. It's MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better for a westerner to get a visa and to come to Russia, than to come visa free to Ukraine. The one place in Ukraine I really enjoyed visiting was Uzhgorod. But most guys from the West don't go there anyway. Again, I'm not saying that Ukraine is not worth visiting and such. I'm just saying that Russia is better. Russia and Ukraine it's like USA and Canada, respectively.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on November 29, 2016, 09:48:07 PM
So you can't discuss Ukraine without inserting "Boo! фашисты!"   LOL.  Well, I guess that demonstrates how seriously anyone can take what you post.

No one has claimed every Ukrainian views Bandera or UPA as heroes.  The point has always been that some Ukrainians admire him for his view that Ukrainians have to fight for themselves if they want an independent country.

Yes, bribery never occurs in Russia.



Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 29, 2016, 10:31:16 PM
I really don't think Cat Daddy has been listening to anyone but himself. 

Many of the members of the forum love to go to Russia, myself included.  I spent all of last fall in two cities in Russia and then dipped down into Kazakhstan.  But that doesn't mean that Russia is better than Ukraine.  I have been there as well.  And I loved it.  People might have more luck finding a woman in either country.

Curious you should use United States and Canada as a parallel.  My experiences in Canada are wonderful.  I love going there.  Many will like Canada better than the US.  And, therefore choose to make it their home.  One of our moderators on this forum chose Canada from Eastern Europe.

Cat Daddy, why don't you just accept that either location is suitable for finding a wife and stop trying to lecture us as to which is better.  If you wish, tell us all of the wonderful things you love about Russia and we can come and judge for ourselves.  We have a wonderful friend of the forum who posts great things about Russian culture and heritage and I read it whenever I can.  I've even tried some of the recipes he has shared.  His name is Mendeleyev.  Look at some of his posts.  And if you choose, you can then follow his blog on Russian culture.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on November 30, 2016, 01:34:00 AM
I talked once in Kharkov with Ukrainian immigration officer about me possibly applying for a citizenship in Ukraine. It was a terrible experience. Russian immigration officials seem like angels to me after that experience in Kharkov. Old stupid immigration female officer in Kharkov literally told me "What do you want from Ukraine". And it's in a country where I have every right to live as a citizen. Here in Russia they are much more polite. I got my Russian citizenship and before that a permanent and temporary residences without any problems. Except the long lines in the office.
In Ukraine the attitude is much worse than here. Again, it's a generalization. But it's true. It's MUCH, MUCH, MUCH better for a westerner to get a visa and to come to Russia, than to come visa free to Ukraine. The one place in Ukraine I really enjoyed visiting was Uzhgorod. But most guys from the West don't go there anyway. Again, I'm not saying that Ukraine is not worth visiting and such. I'm just saying that Russia is better. Russia and Ukraine it's like USA and Canada, respectively.

Feel free to cut the crap on comparing Canada to Ukraine or Canada as undesirable destination when compared with the U.S.  Other than the abysmal weather up here, what you are saying is hogwash.

But that is just a throw away comment.  My real reason for feeling compelled to write is that I started to become concerned that you are an inauthentic troll.

My case is this.  See the words you wrote, which I bolded above.  You compare how easy it was to get your citizenship in Russia with what a headache it was in Ukraine.

Now,

Exhibit A:
November 10, 2016, 05:16:21 AM »
Once I become Russian citizen, I would be more open to discuss politics, but something tells me that you're not gonna like what I have to say.

Exhibit B:
November 10, 2016, 03:24:08 AM »
msmob,
Part of the misunderstanding is possibly due to our different perspectives. My perspective is one of a resident of Russia. Hopefully soon I'd be a citizen here.

Exhibit C:
November 12, 2016, 09:22:02 AM »
Once I become Russian citizen, I'll share my personal thoughts on current political events.

Possibly there are more examples of this, I haven't looked further.  If between November 12 and November 29, you received your Russian citizenship, then I hope you will accept my deep apologies for the point I am making.

Citizenship to a country is a very fundamental thing and your story is confused and contradictory.  People speaking authentically about their own experiences don't confuse the basics such as whether or not they have citizenship in a certain country.

You have made many references to receiving Russian citizenship in the future.  And now you are claiming you already received Russian citizenship.

So what is the real story? You are a Russian citizen?  You aren't a Russian citizen?  Which one, because you have claimed both now.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on November 30, 2016, 04:44:47 PM
Bounder,
OK, I accept your deep apologies.  I became a temporary resident in Russia in 2013. I became a permanent resident in Russia in 2015 (decision was made in November 2014). I applied for Russian citizenship in May 2016 and got it in November 2016. It takes them up to 6 months to process an application in case you're married to a Russian citizen spouse. Officially I became a Russian citizen on Saturday when I signed an acceptance paper in local Immigration Office. I hope to get a Russian passport this month. The internal one. Frankly, I don't even know WHY do I have to prove anything to any of you, since so far no one here proved anything to me. But it's not a big secret about my status in Russia. I wasn't talking about Russia vs. Ukraine in terms of how easy it is to get papers, I was talking about AN ATTITUDE of immigration officers. You simply misunderstood me also in that regard. As a matter of fact, Russian immigration law is much more liberal and friendly than an immigration law in the Ukraine. A good example is its attitude towards a second citizenship. US vs. Canada is not a topic to discuss here. It's a long story and it's irrelevant here.

jone,
I'm not pushing my opinion on anyone. But I have a right to express it. Again, I never said it's a bad idea to come to Ukraine to meet a local woman for marriage. I did it myself back in 2005. Ukrainian women are very good looking and all, BUT... I highly doubt I could've found in Ukraine a wife who'd support me financially for over 3 years like my Russian wife does here. Also there's much higher chance a Russian woman will come to your country to meet you for the first time. Generally speaking, I think that Russian women are much more sincere and open. Also I think it's easier to win trust of a woman in Russia.

Boethius,
I never wanted to discuss politics here in the first place. You dragged me into it. Speaking of politics, here's another good example that there's no real war between Russia and Ukraine. My favorite singer in Ukraine is Ani Lorak. I think she's the best female singer in Ukraine since 1991. She sang in July in Saint Petersburg at a Russian Navy celebration event.

http://gordonua.com/news/society/ani-lorak-spela-na-koncerte-v-chest-320-letiya-voenno-morskogo-flota-rossii-142367.html

http://www.instagram.com/p/BIQgtu9ghgj/

http://miamusic.ru/report/7793-ani-lorak-pokazala-shou-karolina-na-bis-v-moskve.html

Funny to read comments from Ukrainians. Some say she's great, while others call her a traitor. It only proves my point about current events in Ukraine.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 30, 2016, 05:49:27 PM
jone,
I'm not pushing my opinion on anyone. But I have a right to express it. Again, I never said it's a bad idea to come to Ukraine to meet a local woman for marriage. I did it myself back in 2005. Ukrainian women are very good looking and all, BUT... I highly doubt I could've found in Ukraine a wife who'd support me financially for over 3 years like my Russian wife does here. Also there's much higher chance a Russian woman will come to your country to meet you for the first time. Generally speaking, I think that Russian women are much more sincere and open. Also I think it's easier to win trust of a woman in Russia.

Unfortunately, you can't just let it lie.  There is absolutely no evidence that a Russian woman would be more likely to fly to a Western country than a Ukrainian woman.  Especially if the man is paying for the trip and assisting with visas.  As for trust and sincerity, it depends on the woman.  I have met both insincere and sincere women in both countries. 

Your great bit of advice is simply an opinion.  If you would back it up by evidence, then it would be a different story.  But, nothing you have given to the board is anything more than you simply sitting at the computer with a bee up your bonnet.

Speaking of advice, I gave you some good advice in my last post.  If you really are trying to sell Russian women instead of pissing off most of the forum members, share with us stories that capture the imagination about these women.  What makes them special?  I, for one, can tell you your little littany about how you were someone's f-buddy and how other women have f-buddies did not raise the stock of Russian women on the forum.  But, meh.  Say what you will.  I have my own opinions of Russian women and they don't come from you, but from years of visiting Russia and direct interaction.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on November 30, 2016, 08:19:20 PM
Unfortunately, you can't just let it lie.  There is absolutely no evidence that a Russian woman would be more likely to fly to a Western country than a Ukrainian woman.  Especially if the man is paying for the trip and assisting with visas.  As for trust and sincerity, it depends on the woman.  I have met both insincere and sincere women in both countries. 

Your great bit of advice is simply an opinion.  If you would back it up by evidence, then it would be a different story.  But, nothing you have given to the board is anything more than you simply sitting at the computer with a bee up your bonnet.

Speaking of advice, I gave you some good advice in my last post.  If you really are trying to sell Russian women instead of pissing off most of the forum members, share with us stories that capture the imagination about these women.  What makes them special?  I, for one, can tell you your little littany about how you were someone's f-buddy and how other women have f-buddies did not raise the stock of Russian women on the forum.  But, meh.  Say what you will.  I have my own opinions of Russian women and they don't come from you, but from years of visiting Russia and direct interaction.

I don't pretend that my personal opinion is more than that. So what? Just because I don't have the evidence, doesn't mean it's wrong. My personal experience tells me what I told before. If someone doesn't believe me, so be it.

I've already told something fascinating that my Russian wife supports me though she doesn't have to. I personally know at least two Russian women who flew to my country. Well, one of those two was just an ethnic Russian, but not from Russia. Women in Ukraine or in Belarus didn't want to travel to their neighboring town to meet me even if I'd pay them for tickets and such. I talked to hundreds of women in former USSR, so I have a clue what to expect from them. In Ukraine alone in 2005 I met face to face around 50 women. It's just a matter of statistics. If something happens all the time, there's a reason behind it, even if I can't prove it on fingers. Again I'm generalizing, so of course, it's not a law of math. Like I met one woman in Ukraine who was willing to travel, but it was exception that proved the rule.

I don't have to "advertize" Russian women same as Germans don't have to advertize Mercedes. And there's a good reason why this forum is called russianwomendiscussion and not ukrainianwomendiscussion. 'cos everybody knows about Russian women, not the Ukrainian or Belorussian ones. Even like Turkish men know "Natasha from Russia" and not some "Bohdana from Ukraine". It's a fact of life. Half of the world doesn't even know what "Ukraine" is. Even in a country like Canada, where lots of Ukrainians live, ok. I used to go to libraries and for every 10 books in Russian, there's just one in Ukrainian.

It's not about sex. If a woman from former USSR is willing to sleep with you, there's a good chance that she would also marry you. And if she doesn't want to sleep with you, then she probably will reject you. I've been officially married four times, not simultaneously of course. Twice in the US and twice in Russia. All four of my wives had sex with me right away. Sex is a best indication that she's serious about you. Though it doesn't always work, but usually it does. Unlike men, women usually don't tend to sleep around. In America it's somewhat different, 'cos there lots of women just sleep around. But we're discussing Russian women here.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: jone on November 30, 2016, 10:43:42 PM
 :cluebat:
Based on your writings, I can imagine it won't be long til you're working on Numéro 5.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on December 01, 2016, 05:00:30 PM
Bounder,
OK, I accept your deep apologies.  I became a temporary resident in Russia in 2013. I became a permanent resident in Russia in 2015 (decision was made in November 2014). I applied for Russian citizenship in May 2016 and got it in November 2016. It takes them up to 6 months to process an application in case you're married to a Russian citizen spouse. Officially I became a Russian citizen on Saturday when I signed an acceptance paper in local Immigration Office. I hope to get a Russian passport this month. The internal one. Frankly, I don't even know WHY do I have to prove anything to any of you, since so far no one here proved anything to me. But it's not a big secret about my status in Russia. I wasn't talking about Russia vs. Ukraine in terms of how easy it is to get papers, I was talking about AN ATTITUDE of immigration officers. You simply misunderstood me also in that regard. As a matter of fact, Russian immigration law is much more liberal and friendly than an immigration law in the Ukraine. A good example is its attitude towards a second citizenship. US vs. Canada is not a topic to discuss here. It's a long story and it's irrelevant here.

jone,
I'm not pushing my opinion on anyone. But I have a right to express it. Again, I never said it's a bad idea to come to Ukraine to meet a local woman for marriage. I did it myself back in 2005. Ukrainian women are very good looking and all, BUT... I highly doubt I could've found in Ukraine a wife who'd support me financially for over 3 years like my Russian wife does here. Also there's much higher chance a Russian woman will come to your country to meet you for the first time. Generally speaking, I think that Russian women are much more sincere and open. Also I think it's easier to win trust of a woman in Russia.

Boethius,
I never wanted to discuss politics here in the first place. You dragged me into it. Speaking of politics, here's another good example that there's no real war between Russia and Ukraine. My favorite singer in Ukraine is Ani Lorak. I think she's the best female singer in Ukraine since 1991. She sang in July in Saint Petersburg at a Russian Navy celebration event.

http://gordonua.com/news/society/ani-lorak-spela-na-koncerte-v-chest-320-letiya-voenno-morskogo-flota-rossii-142367.html

http://www.instagram.com/p/BIQgtu9ghgj/

http://miamusic.ru/report/7793-ani-lorak-pokazala-shou-karolina-na-bis-v-moskve.html

Funny to read comments from Ukrainians. Some say she's great, while others call her a traitor. It only proves my point about current events in Ukraine.

Papakota (sorry, sentences start with capital letters),
At certain points in the past, you wrote that you didn't have Russian citizenship and were seeking to obtain it at some point in the future.  Then recently, you made a reference to being in possession of Russian Citizenship.

You're right, your personal affairs aren't anyone else's affair.  But there was a missing piece of information in the context where you had volunteered information about your citizenship status in Russia.  And this was creating a credibility issue for me once I noticed it.

I am willing to take what you say at face value, and I offer congratulations to you on gaining your Russian citizenship recently.  I hope you will accept my apologies once again for putting your credibility into question, but it is cleared up as far as I'm concerned.  Congratulations!

I understand you had a larger point that was getting at the issues of process for example.  I just wasn't interested in considering it while I was doubting your credibility.  But as I said, it has been cleared up in my view.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 01, 2016, 10:48:29 PM
Thanks Bounder!
I hope to get my Russian passport this month and then I'll be really happy.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Gator on December 02, 2016, 09:48:38 AM
Thanks Bounder!
I hope to get my Russian passport this month and then I'll be really happy.

Why the delay?  Steven Seagal has his citizenship. 
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 02, 2016, 12:26:10 PM
Why the delay?  Steven Seagal has his citizenship.
Steven Seagal got his Russian citizenship from the President. Obviously, everything was prepared well in advance for Steven Seagal. So he wouldn't have to wait for his Russian passport. It's an exception that proves the rule.
Normally, it takes up to a month here, if not longer. Minimum two weeks.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on December 05, 2016, 08:47:12 PM
Ukraine whistleblower says he has proof that Poroshenko was using loans to pay off Parliament members.  Sounds like the proof has been handed over to the US.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXY12gioFOw
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 05, 2016, 09:51:41 PM
It could be true. However the report is from the Kremlin arm of the media, so, who knows?
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on December 06, 2016, 12:58:03 AM
It could be true. However the report is from the Kremlin arm of the media, so, who knows?

As has been noted many times-anything is possible as the old ways die hard--  and short term pragmatism rules.
To the disgust of many of the "new" era much of that "old guard" thinking and methodology undoubtedly exists.
The problem I see now is that when faced with a lesser of 2 evils anything that Russia promotes is a far greater evil !
The international community is well aware of these issues in Ukraine--hence to carrot of the IMF aid,greater military aid etc being constantly attached to internal reforms and a serious attempt at removing corruption.
I think now that only the next wave of unobligated politicians is capable of tackling the real issues-- ie a new "revolution" -- hopefully a peaceful but clear changing of the guard.
How much of these reports are true? As Mrs B says-'who knows"?


Bags full of bank notes and a plot to bring down a prime minister: Politician makes claims of vast corruption in Ukraine

Pro-Western president Petro Poroshenko’s office strenuously denies the allegations, which have been made by former parliamentarian and oligarch Alexander Onishchenko. Mr Onischenko has fled to London where he now lives in exile having himself been accused of corruption by Ukrainian authNABU claims Mr Onishchenko organised the embezzlement of state funds in a joint programme with the gas company UkrGasVydobuvannia. It claims the scheme led to losses of around £50m to the state. NABU detectives also seized 10 apartments, nine houses, 10 pieces of land, 39 bank accounts, and 11 cars belonging to him and his suspected accomplices.

Mr Onishchenko claims the case is fabricated and politically motivated.


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/politician-makes-claims-of-vast-corruption-in-ukraine-a7452961.html
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: LiveFromUkraine on December 06, 2016, 01:25:29 AM
It could be true. However the report is from the Kremlin arm of the media, so, who knows?


Very true. What raised an eyebrow was when they referred to him giving the US his evidence.   I do wonder if this evidence could be authenticated by the US.  That is if he did indeed pass on his evidence as suggested.  I doubt they are writing checks with memos of "from IMF loans" on it.   :D
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 06, 2016, 03:31:16 PM
anything that Russia promotes is a far greater evil !
It's not Russia promotes, but Putin promotes. I'm Russia as much as Putin is Russia. My Russian citizenship has no less value than his. Don't put Putin and late Nemtsov into one basket. Russia does what Putin wants. It's not like Putin does what Russia wants.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: calmissile on December 06, 2016, 03:57:22 PM
It could be true. However the report is from the Kremlin arm of the media, so, who knows?

I have been curious about how the purge of corruption in Ukraine has been going the past year, but have not heard much.

I am also suspect about the report.  The oligarch/whistleblower has been charged with corruption and had his bank accounts and assets confiscated, so no doubt has an ax to grind.     

This does not seem to pass the 'smell test' either.  Poroshenko gave up a lot to become president in his own estate.  It would seem to me that his interests would be best suited to cleaning up corruption in the government rather than trying to feather his own nest.

What has happened in the past year to clean up the corruption and 'drain the swamp' in Ukraine?
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 06, 2016, 04:18:50 PM
From everything I have read, and from the better half's observations in two trips this year, it is still incredibly corrupt.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Darth_Budda on December 06, 2016, 05:13:28 PM
The Ukrainian Donald Trump,,,

Is to busy making money... To fix any real problems..
But they are renaming things.. Like cities and roads...
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on December 06, 2016, 09:52:49 PM
What has happened in the past year to clean up the corruption and 'drain the swamp' in Ukraine?


Many of the people I talked too said the new, western trained, cops are not corrupt like the old cops. Changes are made at the lower levels but I don't see how government is going to get better when the same crooks are running the show. The people should have ran them out of town too like they did the ex president.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on December 10, 2016, 11:19:40 AM
It's not Russia promotes, but Putin promotes. I'm Russia as much as Putin is Russia. My Russian citizenship has no less value than his. Don't put Putin and late Nemtsov into one basket. Russia does what Putin wants. It's not like Putin does what Russia wants.


When the citizens of Russia have the guts to stand up to Putin and Kremlin  bs-- as  Ukrainians have done at Maidan & since -- until that happens ALL Russians will be included in the responsibilty of Russia's actions--like it or not.

It is the large majority of ordinary citizens that will suffer in due course.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: ML on December 10, 2016, 11:28:59 AM
When the citizens of Russia have the guts to stand up to Putin and Kremlin  bs-- as  Ukrainians have done at Maidan & since -- until that happens ALL Russians will be included in the responsibilty of Russia's actions--like it or not.

It is the large majority of ordinary citizens that will suffer in due course.

Agree. 
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 10, 2016, 01:25:25 PM
Agree.
I became a Russian citizen a month ago and I won't vote for Putin. How am I responsible? Maidan is a bad example, 'cos it hasn't achieved so far any of its goals. Also you can't compare Ukraine and Russia in that sense. Maidan only happened due to Yanukovitch's weakness and the fact that about half of Ukraine was pro Maidan. In Russia Putin is strong and most of Russians are pro Putin, God knows why though, considering their living conditions and all the problems, but they are. Regardless, how am I personally responsible? It's as stupid as if Arabs start blaming my daughter for US's Iraq invasion in 2003. As a matter of fact, Putin is pretty liberal and pro Western. Trust me, he does a lot to keep things relatively OK. I don't support him, but just to be fair to him. There are plenty of hardliners here (Army, KGB, nationalists, Communists) who want to go back to Soviet days and if they succeed, you'd miss Putin's times dearly.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 10, 2016, 01:30:13 PM
Maidan has achieved one goal, and that is to move Ukraine closer to Europe.  Whether that would have occurred had Yanukovych stayed in power is debatable.  The visa free travel, for instance, was being negotiated under Yanukovych as well, with the sticking point being biometric passports.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 10, 2016, 01:48:52 PM
Maidan has achieved one goal, and that is to move Ukraine closer to Europe.  Whether that would have occurred had Yanukovych stayed in power is debatable.  The visa free travel, for instance, was being negotiated under Yanukovych as well, with the sticking point being biometric passports.
Ukraine is Europe. A geographic heart of Europe to be exact. Remember, Україна це Европа? Visa free travel hasn't achieved yet, but regardless, I travel to Europe visa free since 1990, so what? I'm not a citizen of a European country (well, Russia is kinda European, but I'm talking about my other citizenship). One more thing, if I understand it correctly, that visa free regime that Ukraine tries to achieve would be crippled, 'cos it won't include the UK. UK is not in Schengen area. With my non European passport I can travel visa free to the UK, not like it makes any difference in my life. Moreover, the goal of Maidan was not an easier tourism to Europe (with 200 dollars per months as average salary not many will be able to afford that). It was joining the EU and fighting the corruption. Both of those goals so far failed. No success in reduction of corruption and also Association Agreement is not ratified in Netherlands, therefore it's not valid. And considering that in Europe conservatives and Euro skeptics are getting stronger now (not speaking of Trump), Ukraine's chances so far are not so good. Of course, things change and maybe a generation from now, it would be different, but we are talking about today and not about a distant future.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 10, 2016, 01:57:39 PM
It opens new worlds to them.  It's baby steps, and this is the first step.  The UK is not all of Europe, so also irrelevant.


You aren't travelling to Europe on a Russian passport.  It it's on a Western passport, then I don't understand  what your point is.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 10, 2016, 02:11:34 PM
It opens new worlds to them.  It's baby steps, and this is the first step.  The UK is not all of Europe, so also irrelevant.


You aren't travelling to Europe on a Russian passport.  It it's on a Western passport, then I don't understand  what your point is.
Who told you that only the citizens of Western countries can travel visa free to the UK and Schengen area? There are plenty of rich non Western countries whose citizens can travel visa free. South Korea, Japan, Israel etc.
I have told here ten times that I am a citizen of a rich non Western country. My new Russian citizenship doesn't matter.
I don't even have a Russian passport yet. My point is that a visa free travel has nothing to do with anything. 'cos it's only about tourism and nothing else. Maidan was about a legal right to work and residence. Totally different. Just look where Poles and citizens of Baltics states go. Do they immigrate to Finland or the UK? Let alone Greece, Portugal and Cyprus. UK attracts most of potential immigrants from Eastern Europe, therefore it's very relevant. Even in terms of tourism, UK and Ireland are very important places in Europe.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 10, 2016, 04:01:13 PM
JayH and ML are so brave because they sit in Australia and US, respectively. They can talk about Maidan and all. But I bet that most likely if they were ordinary Russian citizens living in Russia, they would've praised Putin. And unlike me, they wouldn't be criticizing him publicly. There is a saying in Russian, it's easier to preach than to be a saint.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: JayH on December 10, 2016, 08:48:00 PM
. Moreover, the goal of Maidan was not an easier tourism to Europe (with 200 dollars per months as average salary not many will be able to afford that). It was joining the EU and fighting the corruption. Both of those goals so far failed.

Like so much of your clueless assessment and understanding of today's Ukraine- your comment is simply wrong.
On both the specifics you list they are work in progress - with some positives on the pathway.
There was no lightswitch to end corruption overnight-- and it is a work in progress.
Is it slower that a lot would like ? Yes-that is true. Is it as wide and far reaching as it needs to be? Not yet.
Is Ukraine integrated with the EU-not yet- but steps ARE HAPPENING.

Calling these aims as failures is just plain wrong-and misleading.

Try reading more and wider of Ukraine's revolution .

Russian blogger Alexander Tver condemned Russian aggression in Crimea and Donbas.

"Speaking of "Glory to Ukraine" - we're talking a shame. Shame on the whole Russian world with its false and rotten through and through spirituality, war lust, gangster lawlessness, sovereign arrogance, imperial ambitions, intolerance, destruction of the whole light, intelligent and moral, the humiliation of his beleaguered people and attempt the conquest of foreign peoples "- writes the blogger."




Nobody knew that Ukraine will become a symbol of struggle and freedom


The slogan "Glory to Ukraine" for each normal Russians according to the blogger should become a symbol of choice and save your own "I". "It's not bravado, pathos or something else. All this can be done quietly and not on elevated emotions. To do in spite of everything. No one knew that Ukraine will become a symbol of struggle and freedom

 http://www.amn.com.ua/blogy/set-vzorval-post-rossyjskogo-blogera-o-vojne-v-donbasse-nykto-ne-znal-chto-ukrayna-stanet-symvolom-borby-y-svobody/
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 10, 2016, 10:18:07 PM
Who told you that only the citizens of Western countries can travel visa free to the UK and Schengen area? There are plenty of rich non Western countries whose citizens can travel visa free. South Korea, Japan, Israel etc.
I have told here ten times that I am a citizen of a rich non Western country. My new Russian citizenship doesn't matter.
I don't even have a Russian passport yet. My point is that a visa free travel has nothing to do with anything. 'cos it's only about tourism and nothing else. Maidan was about a legal right to work and residence. Totally different. Just look where Poles and citizens of Baltics states go. Do they immigrate to Finland or the UK? Let alone Greece, Portugal and Cyprus. UK attracts most of potential immigrants from Eastern Europe, therefore it's very relevant. Even in terms of tourism, UK and Ireland are very important places in Europe.

Visa free travel has indeed been the first step to increased EU rights for Eastern Europe.  Israel is not in Eastern Europe.  You may want to review the history on this.  That is why it is important.

Maidan was never about the legal right to work or reside in the EU.  It was about adopting European human rights and European legal standards, as opposed to Russian human rights and legal standards.

The UK has attracted the most immigrants because its economy was strongest and its benefit system easily exploited.  Romanian Romanis have bragged about building houses in their home villages based on the UK benefits they received.

Ukrainians already work in Ireland (where it is easy for them to gain citizenship), in Portugal (also easy to gain citizenship), in Spain, and in Poland and the Czech Republic.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 12, 2016, 10:24:01 PM
JayH,
We were building Communism slowly, same as Ukraine starts fighting corruption. 20 years to wait, then another 20 years to wait, then to wait some more. I heard that fairytale when I was a child in Brezhnev's times. I totally agree that fighting corruption takes time. It doesn't happen overnight. But full three years is enough time to see some tangible results on the ground and there are none so far in Ukraine. Let's take international corruption index. Russia is doing better. Has Ukraine achieved at least some progress in that index since Maidan? Let's say now it's ranked 130 (while Russia is 119). If in pre Maidan times Ukraine was ranked 135 or something, then we could talk about some progress, though a slow one. But there is none at all.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 12, 2016, 10:44:28 PM
Boethius,
I know where Israel is. I'm just saying that a visa free travel is not a sign of a country being European. And I used those three countries as an example. That's all. Of course, if you live in Canada you won't care about a right to reside in EU, but almost all young pro Maidan Ukrainians were hoping to get it (me including, though I'm not so young and not quite a Ukrainian). It's so clear, I don't want to discuss it. UK has an English language that most people speak. Germany is stronger than the UK in terms of economy, but not many speak German. Don't even start about the benefits. In Canada they pay you like 500 bucks, out of those you pay like 350 for a room and then you hardly have money to eat. One can barely survive, let alone building something somewhere. Exploitation of a system is a problem of a system. People are paid to make sure it's not being exploited and if it is, then someone doesn't do their job right. I don't know the statistics, but I assume that most Ukrainians who live in Europe live there out of status. Simply because it's close to impossible to get a right to work in most EU countries. The only EU country where I heard it's easier to get a work permit is Italy.
And the only country in EU that has some special privileges for Ukrainians in that regard is Poland (same as for Russians, though they don't go there usually). I don't want to comment what you said about obtaining a citizenship in some European countries. You live on another planet probably. Show links or at least tell me which specific law you were referring to. Otherwise, it's a lie. I don't know of any laws in EU that make it easier for Ukrainians to get citizenship.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 13, 2016, 10:31:25 AM
Maidan activists were not naive enough to believe that their protests would lead to the right to live in the EU.  What they wanted was Western concepts of the rule of law and government transparency.  Naive?  Yes.  But what is the alternative?  Nothing other than more of the same.

In Canada, there are various benefit payments.  However, if you are referring to people on welfare, those rates are set provincially, not nationally. 

Ukrainians who have lived in both Ireland and Portugal illegally have been granted citizenship.  I know of Ukrainians in Ireland that were approached to obtain citizenship.  In Portugal, the government has had at least two amnesties to allow them paths to citizenship.  Ireland is now looking at a general amnesty for all illegals.  They did it quietly before, because their goals were different.  I'll post the first Portuguese amnesty.  There have been others.

http://www.fecl.org/circular/1004.htm (http://www.fecl.org/circular/1004.htm)


Spain also has large numbers of Ukrainian immigrants, mostly from Western Ukraine.  They work in agriculture.  Spain has had several amnesties for illegal immigrants.


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/may/09/spain.gilestremlett

Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 13, 2016, 08:33:23 PM
I didn't say that they had hoped that their protests would allow them to live in EU, I said that their eventual goal was for Ukraine to be accepted as full EU member.

I know that Canadian welfare amounts vary province by province, but those differences are not significant enough to be mentioned here in details.

I never said that Ukrainians, same as anybody else for that matter, who live out of their status in EU or elsewhere can't adjust their immigration status to become permanent residents and, eventually, citizens. Say, through marriage or amnesty or otherwise. That's not the point. My point was that there is no law, concerning specifically Ukrainians in EU or elsewhere, except in Poland for temporary work permits only. An example of a special law for certain ethnic group in EU would be when Germany accepts some very limited groups of Jews from former Soviet Union to be accepted as permanent residents. Such a law in regard to specifically ethnic Ukrainians or citizens of Ukraine doesn't exist. And there is no reason why it would exist.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: ML on December 13, 2016, 08:51:50 PM
The worst possible news for Ukraine . . . by far . . . is Rex Tillerson
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: BillyB on December 13, 2016, 09:40:29 PM
The worst possible news for Ukraine . . . by far . . . is Rex Tillerson

I'm willing to give Tillerson a chance. He can be the nice guy to Putin to try and get results. Good cop shows up but if he gets no results, bad cop shows up and that would be Trump playing hard ball. We should remember Trump's words when campaigning when he said if he's President, Russia isn't going to go into Ukraine.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Bounder on December 13, 2016, 10:50:00 PM
Don't worry.  JayH has assured us all that it's just getting better and better for Ukraine and Russia will be vanquished.

Mikhail Gorbachev has been speaking some sense, something we don't hear a lot of these days:

Gorbachev said Russian and U.S. leaders must sit down for talks and "stay at the table until they reach agreement."

"The world needs Russia and the United States to cooperate," Gorbachev said. "Together, they could lead the world ... to a new path."
....
Gorbachev pointed to the productive relationship he built with U.S. President Ronald Reagan during the 1980s and the arms control agreements they reached despite sharp ideological differences.

"We accomplished a lot," he said. "We could talk openly, in a real partner-like way. It's necessary to take that approach again."


Source: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-12-13/ap-interview-gorbachev-says-us-was-short-sighted-on-soviets
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Hammer2722 on December 14, 2016, 08:09:42 AM
I'm willing to give Tillerson a chance. He can be the nice guy to Putin to try and get results. Good cop shows up but if he gets no results, bad cop shows up and that would be Trump playing hard ball. We should remember Trump's words when campaigning when he said if he's President, Russia isn't going to go into Ukraine.

He has made a lot of bold statements and promises, none of which he will keep......
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 23, 2016, 02:56:27 AM
http://ukropnews24.com/savchenko-was-expelled-from-pace/

Savchenko was expelled from PACE

Ukraine's ex Jeanne d'Arc is a fake hero. Same as everything else with second Maidan. She's crazy, literally. She needs a psychiatric help. Khmelnitskiy, Bandera and Savchenko are heroes of Ukraine. Mass murderer, Nazi collaborator and a crazy b..tch, respectively. With such heroes, I'd rather walk under Lenin monuments in Russia. Savchenko is probably another "baby step of Ukraine towards Europe" as Boethius likes to present it.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 23, 2016, 12:03:41 PM
You mean the Savchenko who joined the Euromaidan protest and tried to persuade demonstrators not to throw molotov cocktails at riot police? You mean the Savchenko who volunteered to fight for Ukraine as an instructor for the Aidar Volunteer Battalion?  You mean the Savchenko who was kidnapped from Ukraine by Russian security services and illegally imprisoned with completely false charges for nearly two years?  You mean the Savchenko who stood up to Putin by engaging in a hunger strike that nearly cost her her life? Is this the Savchenko you are referring to?

Clearly someone who follows her own conscience, which told her that words are better than weapons (and who would know more than her?), and that the people in Eastern Ukraine have suffered long enough. So her crime was talking to the “enemy”, because SHE was the only one with the courage to do that.  Is that what upsets your Russian sensibility so much, that a woman has shown more courage than any of the men?
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on December 23, 2016, 08:47:30 PM
http://ukropnews24.com/savchenko-was-expelled-from-pace/ (http://ukropnews24.com/savchenko-was-expelled-from-pace/)

Savchenko was expelled from PACE

Ukraine's ex Jeanne d'Arc is a fake hero. Same as everything else with second Maidan. She's crazy, literally. She needs a psychiatric help. Khmelnitskiy, Bandera and Savchenko are heroes of Ukraine. Mass murderer, Nazi collaborator and a crazy b..tch, respectively. With such heroes, I'd rather walk under Lenin monuments in Russia. Savchenko is probably another "baby step of Ukraine towards Europe" as Boethius likes to present it.

Two things jump out at me from the article - firstly, the English is so poor that I'm not really sure what they're talking about (other than removing Savchenko from PACE), and secondly, there's a sub-headline in the middle of the article which states "Sunset star Savchenko: from hero to “agent of the Kremlin” but which doesn't link to anything or explain what it means.  The complete lack of context makes me wonder if this is an actual Ukrainian publication or a Russian beat-up.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: krimster2 on December 23, 2016, 10:38:07 PM
Savchenko is in favor of holding direct talks with the DPR/LPR leadership with the goal of “reducing or dissolving the tension in Eastern Ukraine”.

According to her, there are three steps that need to be made in order to set negotiations the right way:

Step 1: extend sanctions against Russia.

Step 2: “...set direct contacts with “DPR” and “LPR”. We should contact them without any third or fourth party”.

Step 3: “smile to each other”

There are some people in Ukraine who are not in favor of decreasing tensions in Eastern Ukraine, and afraid that they will be losing “control” of the situation if Savchenko’s peace overture succeeds, nor are they in favor of her 3 conditions, as a result they feel it is essential to discredit her, especially after she resigned from Yulia Tymoshenko’s Batkivshchyna party in October.  After that, she was no longer a showpiece pawn of the party.  She has made the decision that the frozen conflict needs to be unfrozen for the sake of the lives that it has and continues to destroy, but that doesn’t fit into the “correct agenda”, so she must be assassinated politically.  If you look at what happened to past Batkivshchyna deputies that got out of line, getting kicked out of PACE is pretty minor, probably just a warning to her...
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 24, 2016, 07:06:49 AM
I think the Ukraine & the other ex-eastern bloc countries are another example of where the EU has stuffed up. There should have been a two tier EU with Entry Level membership given to all Eastern Bloc countries after the break up off the USSR. This would have allowed the EU to improve and co-ordinate & above all stabilise the economy of these countries without having to allow freedom of movement to Full Member countries - only when they were on a par with full member countries should that be allowed. In the case of Ukraine it would have likely averted all the strife it is currently going through as it would mean Russia would be risking entanglement with the EU not just the Ukraine itself. As it currently stands Ukraine is left out there on a limb and I'm surprised Russia has not gone in to pick it off completely already. That's my thoughts anyway.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 24, 2016, 01:01:42 PM
I think the Ukraine & the other ex-eastern bloc countries are another example of where the EU has stuffed up. There should have been a two tier EU with Entry Level membership given to all Eastern Bloc countries after the break up off the USSR. This would have allowed the EU to improve and co-ordinate & above all stabilise the economy of these countries without having to allow freedom of movement to Full Member countries - only when they were on a par with full member countries should that be allowed. In the case of Ukraine it would have likely averted all the strife it is currently going through as it would mean Russia would be risking entanglement with the EU not just the Ukraine itself. As it currently stands Ukraine is left out there on a limb and I'm surprised Russia has not gone in to pick it off completely already. That's my thoughts anyway.
And why a country like Greece should have a right to remain in a privileged echelon of EU? Greece is not ex Eastern bloc country to begin with. And it caused more troubles to EU than probably any other EU member state.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 24, 2016, 01:12:49 PM

Two things jump out at me from the article - firstly, the English is so poor that I'm not really sure what they're talking about (other than removing Savchenko from PACE), and secondly, there's a sub-headline in the middle of the article which states "Sunset star Savchenko: from hero to “agent of the Kremlin” but which doesn't link to anything or explain what it means.  The complete lack of context makes me wonder if this is an actual Ukrainian publication or a Russian beat-up.
Are you banned in Google or something? If that article's English wasn't so good, find another article on the issue. There are probably dozens of them online. What there's not to understand? When Savchenko was imprisoned in Russia, she was a hero in Ukraine. And when she finally got back her freedom and returned to Ukraine, she's got marginalized and considered as almost a traitor. It's a political circus. LNR and DNR are Putin's puppets and there is absolutely no reason to talk to them. Ukraine should only talk to puppets' master in Kremlin. And this whole Minsk process is a one big BS that only serves Putin's interests. It freezes up the conflict and that's it. It doesn't solve anything in a long run. And Ukraine now has a semi permanent war in the East.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: msmob on December 24, 2016, 01:52:48 PM
I think the Ukraine & the other ex-eastern bloc countries are another example of where the EU has stuffed up. There should have been a two tier EU with Entry Level membership given to all Eastern Bloc countries after the break up off the USSR. This would have allowed the EU to improve and co-ordinate & above all stabilise the economy of these countries without having to allow freedom of movement to Full Member countries - only when they were on a par with full member countries should that be allowed. In the case of Ukraine it would have likely averted all the strife it is currently going through as it would mean Russia would be risking entanglement with the EU not just the Ukraine itself. As it currently stands Ukraine is left out there on a limb and I'm surprised Russia has not gone in to pick it off completely already. That's my thoughts anyway.


This sort of post is EXACTLY why I get scared 'bout [ clueless ]  folks having the right to vote in the BREXIT referendum ..


TC.. I'm pleased to inform you that your idea was implemented..


When new members join - existing member states can and did/ do impose a time period whereby the freedom to work was only after SEVEN YEARS ..It was called a derogation from the Directive.


Cameron negotiated further derogations - but no-one paid attention ... believing 'we'd'  ''stop immigration'' and ''save money ''


Bulgaria and Romania joined on New Year's Day 2007 and UKIP would have had us believe that Jan 1st 2014 would bring 'zillions' of them - no longer needing work permits ..[ bashes head against brick wall ] ..






 



Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Anotherkiwi on December 25, 2016, 02:06:50 AM
Are you banned in Google or something? If that article's English wasn't so good, find another article on the issue. There are probably dozens of them online.

Don't be so obtuse.  Of course I can find other articles - I was quoting this particular one because it's the one which was posted!  How difficult is that for YOU to understand?
 
What there's not to understand? When Savchenko was imprisoned in Russia, she was a hero in Ukraine. And when she finally got back her freedom and returned to Ukraine, she's got marginalized and considered as almost a traitor. It's a political circus. LNR and DNR are Putin's puppets and there is absolutely no reason to talk to them. Ukraine should only talk to puppets' master in Kremlin. And this whole Minsk process is a one big BS that only serves Putin's interests. It freezes up the conflict and that's it. It doesn't solve anything in a long run. And Ukraine now has a semi permanent war in the East.

Again, I'm not arguing with you.  I'm simply quoting the article that was linked - and its lack of clarity and context.  Krimster2's reply was more to the point.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 26, 2016, 09:20:30 AM

This sort of post is EXACTLY why I get scared 'bout [ clueless ]  folks having the right to vote in the BREXIT referendum ..


TC.. I'm pleased to inform you that your idea was implemented..


When new members join - existing member states can and did/ do impose a time period whereby the freedom to work was only after SEVEN YEARS ..It was called a derogation from the Directive.


Cameron negotiated further derogations - but no-one paid attention ... believing 'we'd'  ''stop immigration'' and ''save money ''


Bulgaria and Romania joined on New Year's Day 2007 and UKIP would have had us believe that Jan 1st 2014 would bring 'zillions' of them - no longer needing work permits ..[ bashes head against brick wall ] ..

They were not implemented - there should have been a permanent ban on freedom of movement with the new member states that is what I am arguing, not a seven year wait period then all havoc is let loose. The point being is that it should take most likely decades for these states to obtain full membership status whereby their economies are on a par with full member states so they don't reck untold misery on these member states populations.

The problem is that they EU tried to rush the whole process two much and avoid a two speed EU for the reason of ego, it didn't sound good or chime with there egotistical sense of being the creators of the EU superstate as their legacy. They forgot though the deep underlying social & economic problems of it all they were so  carried away with their political dream. It should have all happened on cautious step at a time, slowly based on, on the ground practicalities. Greece too should have been made an Entry member based on its weak economy burdened down by too much debt.The EU should have been doing due diligence on the weaker economies in Europe such as Greece and they were not, competent?No I don't think so - how can we be expected to vote for an EU that is not doing the job it should be doing - its basic, these basic processes of oversight should be set up before problems occur and sort them out early on, not after and let the crises go on for weeks & months wreaking untold misery and damage.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 28, 2016, 04:43:15 AM
Trenchcoat,
What makes you think that even a few decades would radically change the situation in poor European states? A few centuries didn't help so far. That's first. Second is that there is no need to give hundreds of billions of Euros to countries like Greece. It's not EU's fault that someone made that decision. Freedom of residence in itself shouldn't be an issue for richer EU countries. Just because someone with Bulgarian passport has a right to work in the UK, doesn't mean that they would be automatically employed. If they work, then they pay taxes. If they don't, UK shouldn't have an obligation to support them. Bulgaria must support its citizens. Either way, it shouldn't be an issue for the UK. So frankly, I don't understand the problem. As a matter of fact, EU citizens can be deported if they can't get a job within a certain time frame. They can't just live indefinitely in another EU member state if they can't demonstrate their legal source of income.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Trenchcoat on December 28, 2016, 02:33:19 PM
Trenchcoat,
What makes you think that even a few decades would radically change the situation in poor European states? A few centuries didn't help so far. That's first. Second is that there is no need to give hundreds of billions of Euros to countries like Greece. It's not EU's fault that someone made that decision. Freedom of residence in itself shouldn't be an issue for richer EU countries. Just because someone with Bulgarian passport has a right to work in the UK, doesn't mean that they would be automatically employed. If they work, then they pay taxes. If they don't, UK shouldn't have an obligation to support them. Bulgaria must support its citizens. Either way, it shouldn't be an issue for the UK. So frankly, I don't understand the problem. As a matter of fact, EU citizens can be deported if they can't get a job within a certain time frame. They can't just live indefinitely in another EU member state if they can't demonstrate their legal source of income.

Its an issue, the UK just can't take the large population surges this causes from the freedom of movement policy of the EU from poor Eastern Block countries. Simply put the UK housing stock is running out and East European immigrants are moving in quicker than housing can be built. It takes moments for an east european to jump on a plane but it can commonly take up to around a year to build a house, not least to say for finding land suitable to which to build. This has push house prices up to ridiculous levels in most parts of the UK. With Greece the problem is very much an EU problem, it has affected the whole of the EU and more so countries that have adopted the Euro. In fact the Euro hastened the problem in Greece as the greek government could not print more Euros to pay down its debt. The Greek problem has not gone away. Fact of the matter is Europe is essentially two speed in economic development, this has been demonstrated by the crises, but the EU blindly ignore this obvious difference and impose a one speed Europe - one where poor declining economies like Greece are hopelessly at odds with growing developed economies like the UK & Germany, its just pure idiocy.

My point is that the EU should manage the situation, its not merely good enough to say, 'hey join up' and then disown itself from the fallout of certain member states situations. Its a two speed Europe, we need to accept that and organise a two speed EU with Entry Level status and Full Member Status depending on whether the country is economically advanced enough or economically deficient. Give Entry Level membership on a wider basis but build in sufficient restricted freedom of movement to Full Member states. Anything else is pure havoc. 
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: papakota on December 30, 2016, 01:33:06 PM
Its an issue, the UK just can't take the large population surges this causes from the freedom of movement policy of the EU from poor Eastern Block countries. Simply put the UK housing stock is running out and East European immigrants are moving in quicker than housing can be built. It takes moments for an east european to jump on a plane but it can commonly take up to around a year to build a house, not least to say for finding land suitable to which to build. This has push house prices up to ridiculous levels in most parts of the UK. With Greece the problem is very much an EU problem, it has affected the whole of the EU and more so countries that have adopted the Euro. In fact the Euro hastened the problem in Greece as the greek government could not print more Euros to pay down its debt. The Greek problem has not gone away. Fact of the matter is Europe is essentially two speed in economic development, this has been demonstrated by the crises, but the EU blindly ignore this obvious difference and impose a one speed Europe - one where poor declining economies like Greece are hopelessly at odds with growing developed economies like the UK & Germany, its just pure idiocy.

My point is that the EU should manage the situation, its not merely good enough to say, 'hey join up' and then disown itself from the fallout of certain member states situations. Its a two speed Europe, we need to accept that and organise a two speed EU with Entry Level status and Full Member Status depending on whether the country is economically advanced enough or economically deficient. Give Entry Level membership on a wider basis but build in sufficient restricted freedom of movement to Full Member states. Anything else is pure havoc.

If UK doesn't want to stay in EU, then why it's not leaving it after the BREXIT? Usually one leaves bad things pretty fast.
I totally disagree with your idea of a "two-tier EU". It's better then not to have EU at all. No country would want to be in a second best list. My idea is totally opposite of yours. It's that EU should be another superpower. Kinda like USA or USSR. Only then it all makes sense. One country, one language, one capital.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: Boethius on December 30, 2016, 05:07:51 PM
Quote
If UK doesn't want to stay in EU, then why it's not leaving it after the BREXIT? Usually one leaves bad things pretty fast.


The withdrawal of the UK from the EU is part of a treaty (the Lisbon Treaty).  It is not a matter of merely stating "we withdraw".  What happens to EU nationals living in the UK?  What happens to UK nationals living within the EU?  What happens to funds contributed by the UK to various EU agencies?  When do funds the EU contributes to the UK cease to be advanced? 


The purpose of the negotiation is to cause as little disruption as possible to the lives and prosperity of all affected.
Title: Re: More Bad News for Ukraine
Post by: msmob on December 30, 2016, 11:37:29 PM
Its an issue, the UK just can't take the large population surges this causes from the freedom of movement policy of the EU from poor Eastern Block countries.

Says WHO? You ?

Simply put the UK housing stock is running out and East European immigrants are moving in quicker than housing can be built. It takes moments for an east european to jump on a plane but it can commonly take up to around a year to build a house, not least to say for finding land suitable to which to build. This has push house prices up to ridiculous levels in most parts of the UK.

TC, house prices FELL from 2007 until two years ago in most of the UK... In Northern Ireland the ave. house price is now at 2003/4 levels

(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/BMeDN_2CIAAQZqb.jpg)

THE main issue is the demand to live in the SE. There are other parts of the UK with much less prices and lower unemployment rates.

With Greece the problem is very much an EU problem, it has affected the whole of the EU and more so countries that have adopted the Euro. In fact the Euro hastened the problem in Greece as the greek government could not print more Euros to pay down its debt.


Nope, successive Greek Govts. massaged the books to get into the Euro zone - as it was a train wreck economy BEFORE .. That they were allowed to join showed the extend of the momentum behind the Euro project.

The EU/EEA is already a two-tier project - with Norway, Switzerland choosing not to be full members of the EU  - but gaining access to the single-market.