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Author Topic: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.  (Read 37999 times)

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Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2014, 06:43:58 AM »
Quote
Ukraine has been "walking hand in hand with Russia for centuries.


More evidence of a lack of knowledge of basic history,  Almost half of it didn't.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2014, 06:45:19 AM »
I'm glad we agree on one thing, at least!  :rolleyes:

To clarify what I could have expressed more clearly - the tanks are already rolling through eastern Ukraine.  You still seem to think that Putin will stop once he has control of his "Novorossiya;" that he has no further ambitions regarding conquest.  Those tanks, if not stopped NOW, will rumble right through Ukraine - through Mariupol, Kherson and Odessa and on to Moldova, and through Dnipropetrovsk to Kyiv, on to L'viv and, eventually to Poland, Slovakia and the Czech Republic, all of which are very much part of the EU.

Yes, it does.  I have to assume, from so many of your posts, that you skipped any history lessons relating to eastern Europe because it can't have been relevant to the good ol' USA.


Your patronising dismissal of what is happening in Ukraine amazes and disgusts me in equal measure.  So what if Ukraine has been "walking hand in hand with Russia for centuries?"  How can that possibly give Russia (or, probably more correctly, Putin) the right to invade another country, with the stated aim of removing its government and replacing it with his own people?  I don't think even the USA has had the gall to try that in the last hundred years (except maybe in Grenada).  Your position appears to be that what is happening in Ukraine will have absolutely no effect on your life, or on the USA itself as a country, therefore it is none of your business and you will simply carry on with your life as usual.  Fine - you're entitled to feel that way, and I have no problem with you expressing that opinion.

However, DON'T come onto a forum such as this and continue to spout such absolute crap as you have been.  As far as I'm aware (but you can correct me if I'm wrong), you have never been to Ukraine; unlike many members here, you don't have friends or family there (several of whom are in the war zone); and you have absolutely no right to proclaim that everything which Boethius has quoted is a lie, or that Ukrainians such as MsAmeno don't know what they're talking about.  For you to spout off about how Ukrainians feel, and what they should do to appease Putin, simply baffles me.

Just as a hypothetical - what if Russia decided to take back Alaska?  I mean, it was theirs to begin with, wasn't it?  How would you feel if "little green men" suddenly appeared in Anchorage, proclaiming that this was now part of the new "Furthest East" oblast and people speaking English weren't welcome?  Of course it won't happen - but then nobody predicted the invasion of Crimea, or the extent to which Russia has fomented (and assisted) the rebellion in eastern Ukraine.
You made so many misstatements in these paragraphs I don’t know where to start…first…I don’t care if you are ‘disgusted’ by the position I’ve taken. Second, you can try to tell me what to post or not post, but I won’t listen, and will still post my own opinion. 
 
 There are a dozen conflicts around the world and if you are so ‘caring’ you can bring yourself into all of them and risk life and limb of your children…otherwise it is just talk and risking somebodies else’s kids.    My opinion remains that if the most of separatists are killed off, Russia will still be there, and Ukraine would be better off negotiating with them.  Not everything the ladies here have posted is a lie, like you were pleading in this last post….just   some of their representations of the position I’ve taken are!   I’m not telling anybody else how to feel, like you are…I’m expressing my relatively unpopular viewpoint on the subject.   
Main points:
1.        USA should not get involved, we
2.       I believe Ukraine would be better off negotiating whatever they can get now, rather than later when they are routed.
 Ukraine is not worth risking a wider conflict (possibly much wider) over

Fathertime!   

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Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #127 on: September 02, 2014, 06:47:57 AM »

Every word of the negotiations is recorded.


You can google my facts, and learn that there were negotiations on September 1, the terms the terrorists set out, and that fact the OSCE was there.


I don't lie, I have no reason to, and when I post something as a fact, it is a fact, reported by at least two independent sources.


I believe you are perpetuating falsehoods once again, as if they are fact....about the same as lying.    If everything is recorded, where is the recording of Putin and Poroshenko together alone? 


Fathertime!   
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Online Faux Pas

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #128 on: September 02, 2014, 07:40:15 AM »
They would still fight with ticks and fists.

That doesn't equate to war. That's a fight with a bunch of angry irrational peeps.  But, in the bigger picture you believe angry irrational folks should be armed with machine guns, tanks and supported by a neighbor nations army? Is that the size of it?  ;D

Offline Muzh

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #129 on: September 02, 2014, 08:58:50 AM »

I believe you are perpetuating falsehoods once again, as if they are fact....about the same as lying.    If everything is recorded, where is the recording of Putin and Poroshenko together alone? 


Fathertime!


LMFAO


You must be in cloud nine.


All this attention just for you.  AND for someone who can't see past his nose.


Boe called you out on this. You are good at using inference and then pretend surprise when proving you wrong.


"Who, Moi? I never said that." It's not working anymore.


BTW, if you are going to call anyone liar, stand in front of a mirror and then say it.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2014, 09:49:40 AM »

I believe you are perpetuating falsehoods once again, as if they are fact....about the same as lying.    If everything is recorded, where is the recording of Putin and Poroshenko together alone? 


Fathertime!


Every word stated is recorded and transcribed.  It won't be released unless the parties want it to be released. 



After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2014, 10:50:21 AM »

Every word stated is recorded and transcribed.  It won't be released unless the parties want it to be released. 


Don't believe every word is recorded and transcribed.  It could be counterproductive to frank conversion. Anybody could figure that out...but you can continue believing that rubbish if it makes you happy.
 After all the recording of conversations is MUCH more important than actually finding a solution. :rolleyes:
Fathertime!
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2014, 10:56:54 AM »
Every conversation is fully recorded and transcribed.  At some point in the future, the transcripts of those negotiations, like those before them, will be released.  The fact they are recorded does not mean frank conversation does not occur.


Have you ever read such a transcript?  If you have, you will not that at some points, conversation is redacted.  It eventually is released, but it may not be for a century.


How can I take you seriously when you don't even know these fundamentals?


In case you are unaware, the tape recorder doesn't negotiate a compromise.  There will be no solution.
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #133 on: September 02, 2014, 11:14:17 AM »
Every conversation is fully recorded and transcribed.  At some point in the future, the transcripts of those negotiations, like those before them, will be released.  The fact they are recorded does not mean frank conversation does not occur.


Have you ever read such a transcript?  If you have, you will not that at some points, conversation is redacted.  It eventually is released, but it may not be for a century.


How can I take you seriously when you don't even know these fundamentals?


In case you are unaware, the tape recorder doesn't negotiate a compromise.  There will be no solution.
This is redundent baloney which you do not know for a 'fact'  I take many of your 'facts' with a grain of salt, as I think you continue to be fatally biased.
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Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #134 on: September 02, 2014, 11:43:36 AM »
I don't really care if you believe me.  Any careful student who has written university papers in history or political science has reviewed such transcripts.  It is a standard procedure. 

The transcripts of the Minsk meeting have been released to selected individuals.  They were even commented on, in Ukrainian papers, by a Moscow based analyst the same day.  Have you bothered to look for them, let alone read them?

I'll link the opening speech by Putin.  You can search the rest at your leisure.

http://eng.kremlin.ru/transcripts/22851
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 11:48:22 AM by Boethius »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #135 on: September 02, 2014, 12:34:05 PM »
Good old yahoo news reports that Lech walesa has just nailed it, despite what the 'war escalators'  ( with other people's children)here say! http://news.yahoo.com/arming-ukraine-could-lead-nuclear-war-lech-walesa-183453862.html
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Offline Muzh

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #136 on: September 02, 2014, 12:56:29 PM »
Good old yahoo news reports that Lech walesa has just nailed it, despite what the 'war escalators'  ( with other people's children)here say! http://news.yahoo.com/arming-ukraine-could-lead-nuclear-war-lech-walesa-183453862.html


Where does it say that Yahoo nailed it? Hallucinating?


Good ol' Lech most probably signed an agreement to say peace in every other word when he got the Nobel Prize.


Guess who would have received a Nobel Peace Prize based on his actions? Neville Chamberlain


Okay, a little lesson for the uneducated.


Ukrainians know they cannot give in any territory. Even Crimea is off the table. They know they are going to die at the hand of the Russian Masters. So they will bite the hand of that master as hard as they can and hope Mama comes around and punish the brat who was abusing the dog.


Of course, this is too complicated for you but try to use whatever you have you call brain.


You said to me something earlier that had me thinking. You said I'm so decrepit that I have nothing to live for so I don't care if there is a war. Now, why would you say so?


There is no concern for us if there is a conventional war in Europe. What you are afraid is of a nuclear war and that's got you shitting on your pants.


So, you rather bow your head, bend over and take it like a "man" instead of confronting the aggressor.


This says tons about you.


Even a pacifist would had enough of Putler.
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #137 on: September 02, 2014, 06:16:41 PM »

Where does it say that Yahoo nailed it? Hallucinating?


Good ol' Lech most probably signed an agreement to say peace in every other word when he got the Nobel Prize.


Guess who would have received a Nobel Peace Prize based on his actions? Neville Chamberlain


Okay, a little lesson for the uneducated.


Ukrainians know they cannot give in any territory. Even Crimea is off the table. They know they are going to die at the hand of the Russian Masters. So they will bite the hand of that master as hard as they can and hope Mama comes around and punish the brat who was abusing the dog.


Of course, this is too complicated for you but try to use whatever you have you call brain.


You said to me something earlier that had me thinking. You said I'm so decrepit that I have nothing to live for so I don't care if there is a war. Now, why would you say so?


There is no concern for us if there is a conventional war in Europe. What you are afraid is of a nuclear war and that's got you shitting on your pants.


So, you rather bow your head, bend over and take it like a "man" instead of confronting the aggressor.


This says tons about you.


Even a pacifist would had enough of Putler.


I don't see enough of a reason to start a sequence leading up to a potential nuclear war.  Aside from nuclear war, there are other scenarios that could also be unpalatable.  You forgot to put your thinking cap on if you believe a conventional war in Europe is something that won't have a great effect on us in the USA.  Ukraine will have to fight on it's own.




There are probably a dozen conflicts going on around the world...we only intervene when it isn't too risky or when a true national interest is at stake, and trying to 'stick it to Putin' or anger is not a good enough reason to risk a large war that could wipe out millions...thankfully Obama hasn't intervened enough yet to force a Russian escalation.  Obviously your limited brain function impedes your ability to think more than 1 step ahead so no point in trying to explain the likely sequence if the west did get more involved.


Regarding your age/status in life...yeah if you want to risk what remains of your life go ahead...just don't expect our kids to be as willing to risk death or a scorched planet because little Ukraine and big Russia are in a violent quarrel.  That is THEIR problem, not ours or the rest of the planet's!  As far as I'm concerned Ukraine has some culpability of it's own. 




I'm clear that I am throwing cold water on the little circle jerk and that is fine by me.  As far as I'm concerned, many are rather one-sided in their viewpoint.  One thing I find interesting is that if so many here find Putin to be insane, and compare him to Hitler, it would seem to me that making some concessions here and there is the best route to go for now.  Sure parts of Ukraine may go under his thumb, but in the scheme of things it could be worse...Meanwhile Ukraine can try to fight their way out of it if that is what they want to do. 


Fathertime!   

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Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #138 on: September 02, 2014, 06:23:11 PM »
Yet again, you completely miss every damn point that I'm trying to make!  :wallbash:  :arguing: I would seriously be better off talking to the spiders which live in my garden.

You made so many misstatements in these paragraphs I don’t know where to start

Try at the beginning, point by point, in the same way that I (and others) have tried to understand your posts.

…first…I don’t care if you are ‘disgusted’ by the position I’ve taken.

No problem - as I wrote yesterday.  I'm happy for you to have your opinion - I'm even happy for you to post it on here. 

Second, you can try to tell me what to post or not post, but I won’t listen, and will still post my own opinion.

That is your own mis-statement, not mine.  Try reading what I wrote, for Christ's sake!  What I'm NOT happy about is the continuous set of assumptions and untruths that you keep posting about:

1. Ukraine;
2. Boethius; and
3. Russia's and, more specifically, Putin's intentions.

I don't agree with everything Boethius writes but, as a member of the Ukrainian diaspora, who spent many years living in the country and reads source material in that language every day, as well as being in constant contact with family members there, I think she has a damned sight better idea of what is going on in Ukraine than you do.  She is also far better qualified than you to comment on what Ukraine and its people should (or should not) do in the face of an invasion by Russia.
 
There are a dozen conflicts around the world and if you are so ‘caring’ you can bring yourself into all of them and risk life and limb of your children…otherwise it is just talk and risking somebodies else’s kids.

My military days are long gone, but, if I lived there, I would do what I could.

My opinion remains that if the most of separatists are killed off, Russia will still be there, and Ukraine would be better off negotiating with them.

You still don't get it, do you?  Nobody has a problem with you expressing your opinion - heck, some have even applauded you for being willing to offer it.  However, the reality is that there is no point in Ukraine trying to negotiate with Russia - they've already done that, and have been told that Russia wants the whole country, so why persist?  Again, as I posted yesterday, what would your reaction be if Russia invaded Alaska under the same premise?  Would you still say it wasn't your business, because you live somewhere in the lower 48 and it's too far away to worry about?

Not everything the ladies here have posted is a lie, like you were pleading in this last post….just   some of their representations of the position I’ve taken are!   I’m not telling anybody else how to feel, like you are…I’m expressing my relatively unpopular viewpoint on the subject.

No?  Then how can you explain these responses to Boethius?

When a person (like you) knowingly omits all the “if’s”  and “then’s” of another’s position and then simply boils it into a one-liner, that is lying, and that is what you almost always do.

…I find your opinions rather biased and your ‘facts’ not to be trusted, so we can call it about even. 

I believe you are perpetuating falsehoods once again, as if they are fact....about the same as lying.


Then we move on to:

Main points:
1. USA should not get involved

That's not just your opinion, it seems to be that of most in the USA.  Possibly a fair call, but what other country has the power to stop this invasion in its tracks?  Certainly none in Europe seem to have either the inclination or the ability to do so.  And, a second "but" - how can the USA justify not intervening in Ukraine, with tens of millions of lives potentially at stake, when it is quite happy to intervene in Iraq?  What is the difference between the Christians under severe threat from ISIS militants, and the much greater numbers of Christians in Luhansk and Donetsk (as examples) under severe threat from the separatists and the Russian army?

2. I believe Ukraine would be better off negotiating whatever they can get now, rather than later when they are routed.

Again, nobody is disagreeing that you have a right to this opinion.  BUT - you still can't see that negotiation is no longer an option.  It may have been, several months ago, before Russia got openly involved in escalating the conflict.  It certainly isn't now, with Putin wanting the whole country, to be followed in turn by Kazakhstan, then what?  The Baltic states, the other "stans,"  Armenia, Azerbaijan, another go at Georgia?  Belarus may be safe in the meantime, but it might be a different story in ten years' time.

You are also assuming that Ukraine WILL be routed - on sheer numbers one would certainly think so, but not if the West actually comes to its aid.

Ukraine is not worth risking a wider conflict (possibly much wider) over

That's your opinion, but I doubt that it's shared by any Ukrainians.  Stop Russia now, and you stop the chance of a future escalation.  Leave Russia alone to conquer Ukraine, and who's next?



Offline Anotherkiwi

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #139 on: September 02, 2014, 06:38:18 PM »
I don't see enough of a reason to start a sequence leading up to a potential nuclear war.

We all hope that you're right.

Aside from nuclear war, there are other scenarios that could also be unpalatable.  You forgot to put your thinking cap on if you believe a conventional war in Europe is something that won't have a great effect on us in the USA.  Ukraine will have to fight on it's own.

Why?  When friends get attacked, you try to help.  Unfortunately, Ukraine's friends all seem to be out to lunch, with their phones turned off.

...just don't expect our kids to be as willing to risk death or a scorched planet because little Ukraine and big Russia are in a violent quarrel.  That is THEIR problem, not ours or the rest of the planet's!

Take some comfort from the fact that you have plenty of supporters in this viewpoint - even if there aren't many on this forum.

As far as I'm concerned Ukraine has some culpability of it's own.

How?  What on earth has Ukraine done that justifies an invasion by Russia?

I'm clear that I am throwing cold water on the little circle jerk and that is fine by me.  As far as I'm concerned, many are rather one-sided in their viewpoint.

That's rich, coming from you.  You haven't considered any possible view except your own throughout this entire conflict.

One thing I find interesting is that if so many here find Putin to be insane, and compare him to Hitler, it would seem to me that making some concessions here and there is the best route to go for now.

I'll reserve judgement on the insanity part, as far as it relates to Putin.  In relation to Hitler, how on earth can you possibly talk about "making some concessions here and there?"  I know you're too young to remember World War II, but even you must know that Hitler listened to all the talk of appeasement, laughed his head off, and sent his troops swarming all the way across Europe!  Keep appeasing Putin and the same looks more and more likely to happen.

Sure parts of Ukraine may go under his thumb, but in the scheme of things it could be worse...Meanwhile Ukraine can try to fight their way out of it if that is what they want to do. 

Do tell - how could it possibly be worse?  As for the fighting - one hopes that all true blue Americans would fight if their country was invaded, as would people in any country if they had the means.  Isn't that why you folks have all those guns?


Offline fathertime

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #140 on: September 02, 2014, 08:00:31 PM »


Why?  When friends get attacked, you try to help.  Unfortunately, Ukraine's friends all seem to be out to lunch, with their phones turned off.



Phones are working just fine...it is just that we are not interested in doing what Ukraine is asking us to do....Do you see the difference?




Do tell - how could it possibly be worse?  As for the fighting - one hopes that all true blue Americans would fight if their country was invaded, as would people in any country if they had the means.  Isn't that why you folks have all those guns?




It could be a lot worse for the world if this were to turn into a wide scale war, which is completely possible if we get involved.  Do you REALLY think that the worst thing in the world is for Ukraine to be under Russia's thumb?   I can think of lot of things that would be worse for the world. 


We all hope that you're right.
 


 
You must have missed my point on this one...you actually think I'm wrong since you seem to believe we (The USA) should be sending arms or men...I believe that starts a very dangerous sequence for the world, since my belief is this is not a bluff by Russia...maybe you think it is a big bluff or showmanship.   




I'll reserve judgement on the insanity part, as far as it relates to Putin.  In relation to Hitler, how on earth can you possibly talk about "making some concessions here and there?"  I know you're too young to remember World War II, but even you must know that Hitler listened to all the talk of appeasement, laughed his head off, and sent his troops swarming all the way across Europe!  Keep appeasing Putin and the same looks more and more likely to happen.


If and I say a big IF it gets to the point then we will have a wider war.  I don't think it reaches that point this time, and I'm not anxious to help it reach that point.  If you think somebody should make a stand then send your own children and all of New Zealand's young people and money to makes sure it doesn't.  As far as I can see the West is striking close to just the right balance for the moment. 




That's rich, coming from you.  You haven't considered any possible view except your own throughout this entire conflict.
 

I have attempted to consider Russia's viewpoint  (which I don't think many others have) as well as Ukraine's and continue to think that a negotiation was possible, and maybe still is.  In addition, I'm not going to act like every statement I make is a 'fact' confirmed by '2 independent sources' when in fact they are not.  Now who's point of view do you think I should be espousing if not my own?


Fathertime!   
 
 

 





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Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2014, 12:06:56 AM »
That doesn't equate to war. That's a fight with a bunch of angry irrational peeps.  But, in the bigger picture you believe angry irrational folks should be armed with machine guns, tanks and supported by a neighbor nations army? Is that the size of it?  ;D
Don't the Americans have an amendement about that one? :P
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

Offline Boethius

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2014, 01:58:06 AM »
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline Shadow

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2014, 03:17:19 AM »
No it is not a dog. Its really how I look.  ;)

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #144 on: September 03, 2014, 04:29:03 AM »
Now that his side is winning, of course Putler isn't going to readily agree to a ceasefire.
A few weeks ago he was calling for a ceasefire only because his mercenaries were losing the fight.

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #145 on: September 03, 2014, 05:54:32 AM »
Don't the Americans have an amendement about that one? :P

Exactly but we're not collaborating with or assisting Canada or Mexico to overthrow the gubmint  :D

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #146 on: September 03, 2014, 06:56:21 AM »
And at once denied.

Denied by Moscow because any ceasefire confirmation must come from the pro-Russian rebels, not Moscow.  After all, Moscow has no involvement in the conflict. 

Where is the tongue-in-cheek emoticon? 

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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #147 on: September 03, 2014, 07:21:28 AM »
A settlement is desperately needed as Putin could keep this up for years.  The settlement would be a variant of Fathertime's "win-win" concept such that Putin can save face, making it a "not lose - not lose" solution.

Would this work?  Here is a starting point:

Russia receives:
 
Limited amount of autocracy given to eastern Ukraine, yet short of independence or Russian control, e. g., tax revenue would still go to Ukraine.   
-  Ukraine expresses its intent to remain independent and not join NATO.
-  Sanctions are lifted. 
-  Ukraine pulls back its military.
   

Ukraine receives:   

-  An independent body is established to keep the peace (evict Russians and mercenaries, disarm rebels) and set up a democratic election.
-  "War crimes" procecuted.
-  Guaranteed supply of Russian gas at reasonable prices with some forgiveness of past debt. 
-  Russia pays a much larger share of rebuilding eastern Ukraine.   


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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #148 on: September 03, 2014, 10:26:02 AM »
Soon after posting the above, I read that Putin has unveiled a 7-point peace plan.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/09/putin-ukraine-ceasefire-201493144144284567.html


Ceasefire
Withdrawal of Ukrainian forces
Halt of rebel advances
International observers
Unconditional release of prisoners
Corridors for refugees and humanitarian aid
Rebuild infrastructure of Lugansk and Donetsk.

Can we trust Putin?  The UA PM said, "This latest plan is another attempt to pull the wool over the eyes of the international community ahead of the NATO summit and an attempt to avert the EU's inevitable decision to unleash a new wave of sanctions against Russia."

This is the first serious proposal by Putin to stop the conflict.   It will be rejected by UA because it gives them little and leaves rebels in control of UA sovereign land.   However, it is a starting point.   

I gather European diplomats have been busy communicating to the Kremlin that the next wave of sanctions will be very harsh unless Russia backs off.   And perhaps that concerns Putin. 

Putin can save face by stopping this now and making reasonable concessions to UA.   If he waits until harsh sanctions are in place, he will look weak.  So how can Putin spin this to convince Russians that this is a victory?  It is time for diplomacy.  Where is Henry Kissinger? 


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Re: Russian Troops captured in Ukraine.
« Reply #149 on: September 03, 2014, 05:50:46 PM »
Even better - France finally appears to be taking notice of the condemnation from every other European country about the sale of Mistral warships to Russia.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/2014/09/france-halts-warship-delivery-russia-201493212743893677.html

Delivery of the first ship has been delayed at least two months.

"The President of the Republic declared that, despite the prospect of a ceasefire, the conditions for France to deliver the first warship are not to date in place," Francois Hollande's office announced on Wednesday, on the eve of a major NATO summit in Wales.

The statement came just hours after Russian President Vladimir Putin unveiled a plan to end the four-month war in the former Soviet republic, calling on pro-Kremlin rebels and government forces to cease fire and agree to the broad terms of a truce.

 

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