My view of the war

[lordtiberius]

Two years ago when I started my search, I narrowed my search to Ukraine.  I prospected heavily in Lugansk because a Terp on this board gave me good advice.  That Terp helped many Westerners find brides.  Now he is either dead or exiled.  Last time I saw his vk he had a lot of Pravvy Sektor references.  Now he is gone.

My number 2 was a doctor in Lugansk.  She worked at the government hospital and had a private practice.  Her father died about ten years ago.  It is just her and her mother.

A couple of my online friends emigrated to Kiev.  One is an entertainer, he is rapper.  The other was a bit of a grifter.  I don't know what he is doing.

Another girl I met online who protested in the Euromaidan protests, her boyfriend was an opposition politician in Lugansk.  She emigrated to Holland.  Another woman I met online, she, her husband and son moved to Russia.

Luhansk has no water or electricity.  It is very hot there now but soon it will turn very cold.

These are good people and they all deserve better than what they got.  But you listen to some people on this board, they have it in their heads that to make up for all the wrongs in their life these innocents have to suffer.

When will it end?

After the end of the Second Punic War, the Romans exacted a hard peace with Carthage. Marcus Porcious Cato the Elder ended every speech whether it was on tax policy or grain subsidies with these words Carthago delenda est - Carthage must be destroyed.   Cato gave a speech about Carthage and a page brought him an olive.  Cato looked at the olive and said, "They picked this olive in Carthage this morning."  He did this to demonstrate the nearness of Carthage. 

The Carthaginians could not have a Navy.  They had to get permission to conduct foreign policy and there was a huge indemnity. It was so huge that it was thought it could never be paid. The Carthaginians paid it in a couple of years.  Rome dispatched another Scipio Africanus and eventually he ripped down the walls of Carthage and sown salt in the land so that nothing will ever grow in Carthage again.

Churchill said of diplomacy that "Jaw Jaw is better than War War."  I just want a better life for my family.

[Shadow]

It will end when as I already mentioned many times before, people will stop fighting and start talking.
Ukraine was a nation where people believed in democracy. Where people believed that in spire of differences in culture and language they were still one. Where people hoped fo improvement of their lives.

If the gap between expectations and reality becomes too big, a revolution is the result.
When Ukraine became independent (and yes they are still truly independent unlike the Baltics) they expected it would be possible to rise from the situation in communist times to a more Western level. Far various reasons which include corruption and the role of Russia progress was slow. The promises made by politicians were never kept, and people got impatient.

In 2004 there was the Orange revolution when people did not accept the result of the elections. They wanted the president that promised to move them towards the EU and away from Russia. And they managed it by mainly peaceful protesting.
However they were soon disappointed as from the promises made (membership EU, visa-free travel, end of lease of Sevastopol) none happened and the government was embroiled in internal struggles for power and money.  Instead of moving forward, it seemed Ukraine was moving backwards.

At the next presidential elections this became clear, this time there was no dispute in Yanukovich becoming the president.
And while this meant a slowdown in their wish of moving toward Western Europe, for a while it seemed to work.
That is until external forces decided to use the division between ethnic groupd to tear the country apart.

Make no mistake, the stories that started Euromaidan were false promises. The EU has only offered a trade agreement, things like visa-free travel or a candidate membership were never on the table, and I sincerely doubt they will be even if the current course is kept within 15 years. But that is not what the people demonstrating believed.
When it went to a level that Yanukovich decided to leave, I was one of the few who saw the danger of a civil war. The government acted too fast in their wish to please those who feigned to be on their side, and took measures that divided the country instead of keeping it calm.

The result was that Russia felt the urge to secure Crimea as their base. While it was done in a clever way that can be debated for legality, it was clear that Russia instigated this. Within a short time the Ukrainian government had zero influence, and this happened almost without any fight.

Unfortunately this gave hope to the region that has traditionally supported Russia for accomplishing something similar. Already before they had shown not to accept the government change and demanded that their voice would still be heard even if the president from their region was now considered former president. While initially their only request was to be heard inside Ukraine, and they had no wish to separate, their protests were met with more violence as the protests of Euromaidan, without the international attention.
This led to them becoming more radical in their thoughts and protests very fast. Within a short time their targets changed to autonomy and separation from Ukraine.

As the government in Kiev refused to defuse the situation by talking and instead chose for increasingly violent answers, the simple call to be heard evolved in to the civil war that is now taking place. Reason for this is mostly the propaganda and misinformation fed.
And part of that is the call not to have the pro-Russians any influence on the government, as that may cause Ukraine to change its course once again in the future should the promises made now be as empty as they were before.

Those who suffer are the people. They are losing friends and family, and not only those who die in the conflict. The propaganda is tearing apart lifetime friendships as well as families. And when the fighting is over, in whatever way it will be, the country as a whole will show how much it has suffered economically. People will be happy to land at the level they were before all this started, as in the old Russian proverb.

If you wish to help your family and loved ones do not spread a message of hate. Do not point fingers or blame someone else as the people. It does not help if politicians from other countris tell each other they are doing everything to stop it. When there is a fire, calling the fire department from another city to tell the local fire department to come over seldom helps.
What must happen is the people to settle their differences. That will not happen by conquering. You can not conquer the people in Ukraine, just as you can not conquer the people in Russia. If you wish to conquer a West-European country, all you have to do is to take over government. To conquer Ukraine you must take down the last man and woman standing.

Ukrainians are proud people, diverse but nevertheless the same. They have as people suffered many hardships, many more than we feel is justified. And a lot of that is due to a small minority who put their own well being above the country, regardless of what they claim to be doing. This is regardless of their political affiliation.

The irony here is that while we are fighting over who is behind what, our actual goal is the same. To let Ukraine and its people choose their own leadership and follow the targets they choose. To see Ukraine become more prosperous as a country. To allow Ukraine to choose its own allies, without being forced from any side. And for all of that to happen in peace.

Democracy does not mean that they who are most vocal should get what they want, or that the majority can once chosen neglect any minority. Just as survival of the fittest does not mean the strongest will win.
Democracy means the votes of all should be heard and taken in to consideration. Only then a vote will cause consensus. You may not agree with a decision, but if you know you had the opportunity to explain your point of view you may still be able to support it.

That is the key issue. Democracy was disrupted, and should be restored. Not by force, but by allowing the voice of everyone to be heard. Without fear of being arrested ot thrown out for supporting the view of a minority.

[jone]

Very altruistic words, Shadow.

Should have told them to the Russians back in March.  The entire Eastern Ukrainian campaign was created by the Russians.  The promises that they made to the Eastern Ukrainians and the wholesale infiltration of Russian nationals on Ukrainian soil is the cause of the conflict in Donetsk and Luhansk. 

You're a bright guy.  Why did the 'Ukrainians' seeking democracy at the onset of the Eastern Campaign attack the Opera House in Kharkiv?

All conflict in the East was manufactured. 

[sleepycat]

RT is probably looking at hiring more Kremlin Apologists at the moment. Maybe you should fax them your CV...

[lordtiberius]

Six months ago, Ukraine was a pro-Russian country that hated Yanukovych but was also indifferent and yet somewhat favorable to Putin.  Now, that's changed.  The mask is off. 

I have two more trips to Ukraine planned.  I do not know if I should re-route my itinerary and fly into Poland.  I don't know if I will get shot out of the sky in which case I feel sorry for the poor bastards who have to haul my carcass off the field.  I don't if the Russians will bomb my family in Bila Tserkov and have to give them money.  Some of my family have people older than 50 and younger than 13 - just the kind of people who die when they become refugees.

I remember the film Doctor Zhivago where all this woman carried a dead baby around and then I see the propaganda pictures both sides post.  It is ghoulish.  There are legitimate questions and inquiries that both sides could discuss and yet we play these stupid games on this forum.  We are not the UN.  Nothing will change from a policy point of view, but a lot of people have interesting life experience.  Instead we play topic change, Mr. Cheap Shot and who can one up each other on why America is such a horrible country.  Meanwhile people on both sides are dying.

There is one douche bag on this forum who calls me a warmonger.  I have been to war.  I posed my DD-214 online, if you want to see it, because I got sick of these never evers questioning my courage.  When I was a kid, I favored war because it gave finality to conflicts.  Yet in my lifetime having seen dead bodies, crumpled up buildings and hatred live on after the carnal harbors of that hatred have died and passed on this black inheritance to their children.  What's it all for if we do not win the peace?

Winning and maintaining the peace takes wisdom and love.  Those are thing that are in short supply in the world.  I guess it is should be no surprise there isn't a lot of wisdom on the pages of this forum.  But its still hard to watch.

[Shadow]

Very altruistic words, Shadow.

Should have told them to the Russians back in March.  The entire Eastern Ukrainian campaign was created by the Russians.  The promises that they made to the Eastern Ukrainians and the wholesale infiltration of Russian nationals on Ukrainian soil is the cause of the conflict in Donetsk and Luhansk. 

You're a bright guy.  Why did the 'Ukrainians' seeking democracy at the onset of the Eastern Campaign attack the Opera House in Kharkiv?

All conflict in the East was manufactured.

If only they would have listened to me Jone.
Through our contacts there I warned them that all Russia would ever take was Crimea, and the best the others could hope for was federalization. But people were convinced they would manage to break free from a government they dispise and that has given them zero reason to think otherwise.

As for the idea that Russians orchestrated the conflict, it is laughable when you have the information that I have.
Look at the polls that you and Boethius posted and you will see that most people had no wish to join Russia, which I fully agree with. However not wanting to join Russia does equal support for the government in Kiev.

Six months ago, Ukraine was a pro-Russian country that hated Yanukovych but was also indifferent and yet somewhat favorable to Putin.  Now, that's changed.  The mask is off. 

Do you feel that change has made people better? Hating their own politicians is something that happens in almost every country. Hating fellow countrymen so much they are able to kill is something entirely different.

I remember the film Doctor Zhivago where all this woman carried a dead baby around and then I see the propaganda pictures both sides post.  It is ghoulish.  There are legitimate questions and inquiries that both sides could discuss and yet we play these stupid games on this forum.  We are not the UN.  Nothing will change from a policy point of view, but a lot of people have interesting life experience.  Instead we play topic change, Mr. Cheap Shot and who can one up each other on why America is such a horrible country.  Meanwhile people on both sides are dying.

There is one douche bag on this forum who calls me a warmonger.  I have been to war.  I posed my DD-214 online, if you want to see it, because I got sick of these never evers questioning my courage.  When I was a kid, I favored war because it gave finality to conflicts.  Yet in my lifetime having seen dead bodies, crumpled up buildings and hatred live on after the carnal harbors of that hatred have died and passed on this black inheritance to their children.  What's it all for if we do not win the peace?

Winning and maintaining the peace takes wisdom and love.  Those are thing that are in short supply in the world.  I guess it is should be no surprise there isn't a lot of wisdom on the pages of this forum.  But its still hard to watch.

And you have taken more than part in such games. What do you feel it has done for you other than getting a bigger e-penis?

[lordtiberius]

This is the only part of your post that deserves an answer Shadow

Do you feel that change has made people better?

Better to die on your feet than live on your knees

Hating their own politicians is something that happens in almost every country.

In the end, Yanukovych's coterie of supporters was very small, because he iced out his supporters (other rich bastards).  The actions of the GRU in Ukraine have alienated their supporters in the South and East.  The GRU in Ukraine was only effective in Crimea.

The last election in Ukraine was even by the opposition's account somewhat fair.  So in America we have the same problem except worse.  Obama has more in common with Maduro or Chavez than he does with Yanukovych.  So this idea that Banderists terrorized the people of Luhansk or Donetsk, its a bit of a legal fiction.  Ok, its a lot of a legal fiction.  You can claim it was a tit for tat in extra legal or extra legal constitutionality.  But the fact is there was legal ways for them to express separatism through nonviolence.  At some point, legitimacy comes at gunpoint.  That is an ugly truth.  But if you do not have discretion or wisdom, you won't hold onto to that gun for very long.

Let's just say that everything you believe is true and everything I believe is whack.  Ask yourself, why do so many Russian-speaking Ukrainians and ethnic Russians in Ukraine support Poroshenko and not Putin?

Hating fellow countrymen so much they are able to kill is something entirely different.

This is not a problem in where you live in Europe but it is a problem in Greece, Spain, Hungary.  There are some ugly places in Europe and America as well.  The extreme Banderism is not popular in Ukraine.  Why don't you hold the post-Soviets to the same standards as you do to the Banderlogs?

[Shadow]

  Why don't you hold the post-Soviets to the same standards as you do to the Banderlogs?

I do. Yet you should know that once a war begins there is no good or evil.

[Slumba]

I am shocked at the political naivete on display in this thread, from "both" sides. 

If you don't think this is about oil, natural gas, and other resources, with both the Russians and Ukrainians being manipulated behind the scenes for an ulterior motive, then you are clueless. 

To kill off 250K+ or even a million Ukrainians in order to reach their goals, means nothing to the psychopaths who want only money and power.  How many were deliberately killed in the Holodomor?  It was a manufactured genocide, not an accident.  Put on  your thinking caps, people!

[Shadow]

Put on  your thinking caps, people!

Should they be made of tinfoil?

[fathertime]

If only they would have listened to me Jone.
Through our contacts there I warned them that all Russia would ever take was Crimea, and the best the others could hope for was federalization. But people were convinced they would manage to break free from a government they dispise and that has given them zero reason to think otherwise.

As for the idea that Russians orchestrated the conflict, it is laughable when you have the information that I have.
Look at the polls that you and Boethius posted and you will see that most people had no wish to join Russia, which I fully agree with. However not wanting to join Russia does equal support for the government in Kiev.
Do you feel that change has made people better? Hating their own politicians is something that happens in almost every country. Hating fellow countrymen so much they are able to kill is something entirely different.

And you have taken more than part in such games. What do you feel it has done for you other than getting a bigger e-penis?

Nice post Shadow....the solution remains negotiating an imperfect settlement, that enables people to move on ...but if Ukraine wants to fight, they can do so...but I doubt the problem will end.


Fathertime!   

[Slumba]

Should they be made of tinfoil?

If I had told you 2 years ago, that the NSA was recording all your phone calls (not just a record of who called who, but the actual audio), emails, etc. and was gathering data on every one of the 300 million people in the USA, plus millions more around the world, would you have believed me?

Yet it is true.

You think it is mere happenstance, that Joe Biden's son, who has no real-world experience, was hired by Burisma?  Do you still believe, that the war in Iraq had nothing to do with oil?

Do you know what the term "Heartland Theory", refers to?

Anyways, throwing around the "conspiracy theorist" angle as a means of debate, makes you look intellectually un-serious.

[Shadow]

If I had told you 2 years ago, that the NSA was recording all your phone calls (not just a record of who called who, but the actual audio), emails, etc. and was gathering data on every one of the 300 million people in the USA, plus millions more around the world, would you have believed me?

Yes.
If I would have told you in 2005 that every country in the world is tapping all internet data to and from their country, would you believe have believed me? Yet I spoke to a Cisco specialist who was serviceing such equipment in Ukraine.
The information that reaches us is about 10 years behind reality.
At my job, through affordable software and GSM equipment, I can follow the whereabouts of each employee and intervene in their equipment when needed. In principle we can prevent them to start their car unless they complete a specific task. And that are simple and affordable business applications that are just a result of much more detailed and sophisticated possibilities each government in the world possesses.

[lordtiberius]

Yet you should know that once a war begins there is no good or evil.

That is true.  I have seen good and bad men die.  I think you agree that it is better that bad men live and their plans for evil are frustrated than to be killed.  That must be our common goal.   

[jone]

I fully subscribe to the idea that there is not much love for Kyiv in the Donbas and Lugansk.   But, by a wide majority, these people were not in favor of  creating their own state.  The referendum was manufactured, Soviet style.  If there were an honest plebiscite, it would easily have disclosed this.  People find it hard to vote their minds when a Kalashnikov is staring you in the face.

I have watched the US pull the same stuff that Russia did in this situation over the years I've been alive.  Russia is just not as good at it.  It all seemed so amateurish.  And 1300 bodies later, not to mention the airline, Russia is still claiming non-involvement.

As for your e-penis statement, that is shameful.  It is totally beneath that which we had hoped to come from you.  You have no singular claim to love of the Russian or Ukrainian peoples.  You constantly claim 'insider' information, as if you, personally, were presenting the case to the Donbas.  Get over yourself.

[Shadow]

That is true.  I have seen good and bad men die.  I think you agree that it is better that bad men live and their plans for evil are frustrated than to be killed.  That must be our common goal.

The common goal should be to allow all people to live in peace and let their voice be heard.

[lordtiberius]

There was a nonviolent way to accomplish the political objectives of the so called LNR and DNR.  They weren't interested in that.  Why?

[Shadow]

I fully subscribe to the idea that there is not much love for Kyiv in the Donbas and Lugansk.   But, by a wide majority, these people were not in favor of  creating their own state.  The referendum was manufactured, Soviet style.  If there were an honest plebiscite, it would easily have disclosed this.  People find it hard to vote their minds when a Kalashnikov staring you in the face.

That depends on the moment you speak about. While you may feel that any vote that goes against your convictions must have been under force, the reality can be very different. If your government would attack your state by force and disallow it to be voting in important national matter, would you not change from supporting the union to let is become free?

As for your e-penis statement, that is shameful.  It is totally beneath that which we had hoped to come from you. 

When you post trollish pictures that seem to contribute nothing but to increase tensions the only possible reason would be extension of the e-penis. At least that is how I see it. If the word penis offends you, spend more time on the internet.

You have no claim to singular claim to love of the Russian or Ukrainian peoples.  You constantly claim 'insider' information, as if you, personally, were presenting the case to the Donbas.  Get over yourself.

I have contact to social media groups that give very detailed information. Through different groups both camps are represented. This means that any news gets to me long before any media break the story, and I have seen the distortions of the news story many times.
Here I may seem like a Putinist, in other places they feel I am a gayish defender of the US.
As much as that may disrupt superiority of having lived there, I do not have a habit of making unfounded claims, rather to the contrary.

[Shadow]

There was a nonviolent way to accomplish the political objectives of the so called LNR and DNR.  They weren't interested in that.  Why?

Which of the many non-existent offers do you mean? As for why they are reluctant to take any offer, until now any postive offer has been followed the next day by an attack. That makes people sceptical of any offer.

[lordtiberius]

Your personal attack on jone is unnecessary and unwarranted.  I disagree with a lot of things he says.  I am told he is unfriendly to me.  But to take a swipe at him just because you disagree with his politics, is not good.  I also think that even on the posts I disagree with, maybe because I disagree with him, they always provoke thought.  I also think he understands macroeconomics better than anyone on this forum.

This kind of nonsense is why Mendy doesn't post here and Boe is sometimes absent.

Just stop

[jone]

I didn't see your post directed at me, Shadow, but now that you redirect, fine.  I can handle insults. 

So, as you say, your direct insight into social media groups give you the advantage of everyone on the forum, well, let us all lay prostrate at your feet and await your next protestation of how bad everyone is here on the forum and how much more you know.

Shadow, you're better than this.  We all have heard marvelous things come from your keyboard.  Where's that guy? 

[Boethius]

Unfortunately this gave hope to the region that has traditionally supported Russia for accomplishing something similar. Already before they had shown not to accept the government change and demanded that their voice would still be heard even if the president from their region was now considered former president. While initially their only request was to be heard inside Ukraine, and they had no wish to separate, their protests were met with more violence as the protests of Euromaidan, without the international attention.  As the government in Kiev refused to defuse the situation by talking and instead chose for increasingly violent answers, the simple call to be heard evolved in to the civil war that is now taking place. Reason for this is mostly the propaganda and misinformation fed.

The majority of the people in the Donbas did not support federalization, or independence.  Even in Donetsk (the city, not the oblast), support was never more than 50% for federalization.


If you look at how the protests occurred, there was a pattern.  Almost identical protests also occurred in Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkiv, and Odesa.  We know what quelled the protests in Odesa.  In Kharkiv, the "pro Russian separatists" admitted, during the heat of conflict, that they were being paid, that they had been trained by what they assumed was the Russian secret service, and that they were getting direction from Russia.  In Kharkiv, the mayor stopped the protests, and all is calm.  In Dnepropetrovsk, Kolomoisky stopped the protests, and all is calm.  In the Donbas region, no one took action to stop the protests.  Kyiv did not take decisive action, waiting for the election of a new president.  In that period, Russia did provide mercenaries, arms, and monies to the "separatists".  Most of the "separatists" were Russian nationals, not locals.  We can argue about who was funding those "separatists", some accuse Yanukovych, others accuse oligarchs, and others, the Russian government.  I suspect all were involved.  However, it is irrelevant, as the point is, outside forces came in the "lead" people who largely did not want separation.

This led to them becoming more radical in their thoughts and protests very fast. Within a short time their targets changed to autonomy and separation from Ukraine.

See above.  In the entire region, untrue, there was never more than 30% support for the separatists.  As I stated, in Donetsk, Slovyansk, and perhaps Lugansk, that may have been as high as 50%, but no more.  In Slovyansk, the "separatists" terrorized the locals, kidnapping for ransom, beating them, and carrying out extra judicial killings.You assume the false narrative of a desire to separate from Kyiv is true.  While those in the region have issues with the removal of Yanukovych, and the perception (perhaps justified) that their interests are not represented by the new Rada, the violence was not spontaneous, and it came from outside the region.

[Shadow]

I didn't see your post directed at me, Shadow, but now that you redirect, fine.  I can handle insults. 

So, as you say, your direct insight into social media groups give you the advantage of everyone on the forum, well, let us all lay prostrate at your feet and await your next protestation of how bad everyone is here on the forum and how much more you know.

Shadow, you're better than this.  We all have heard marvelous things come from your keyboard.  Where's that guy?

Please accept my apologies if you feel insulted by anything I state. It is not meant as such, just reflecting your own statements.
As for my information, I have what I have and am willing to share that part which I believe is not distorted too much. It does not make me better as anyone else here, as many have also information from their relatives and friends. And I presume that everyone reflects the information they get.

For your information I try to sift out the huge amount of propaganda and misinformation. By getting stories from both sides, often about the same subject, it is easier to find a middle ground as when fed from just one side. 
If you disagree with what I write, not a problem for me. I do not wish everyone to agree with me, nor do I feel that someone who disagrees with me is necessarily bad or intellectually challenged.

It does not matter if it is a victim of a scam or someone believing in propaganda. I tell what I think, and am the first to admit that I can be wrong.If that cases a hissy fit to some people at times, so be it.

[Shadow]

The majority of the people in the Donbas did not support federalization, or independence.  Even in Donetsk (the city, not the oblast), support was never more than 50% for federalization.


If you look at how the protests occurred, there was a pattern.  Almost identical protests also occurred in Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkiv, and Odesa.  We know what quelled the protests in Odesa.  In Kharkiv, the "pro Russian separatists" admitted, during the heat of conflict, that they were being paid, that they had been trained by what they assumed was the Russian secret service, and that they were getting direction from Russia.  In Kharkiv, the mayor stopped the protests, and all is calm.  In Dnepropetrovsk, Kolomoisky stopped the protests, and all is calm.  In the Donbas region, no one took action to stop the protests.  Kyiv did not take decisive action, waiting for the election of a new president.  In that period, Russia did provide mercenaries, arms, and monies to the "separatists".  Most of the "separatists" were Russian nationals, not locals.  We can argue about who was funding those "separatists", some accuse Yanukovych, others accuse oligarchs, and others, the Russian government.  I suspect all were involved.  However, it is irrelevant, as the point is, outside forces came in the "lead" people who largely did not want separation.

See above.  In the entire region, untrue, there was never more than 30% support for the separatists.  As I stated, in Donetsk, Slovyansk, and perhaps Lugansk, that may have been as high as 50%, but no more.  In Slovyansk, the "separatists" terrorized the locals, kidnapping for ransom, beating them, and carrying out extra judicial killings.You assume the false narrative of a desire to separate from Kyiv is true.  While those in the region have issues with the removal of Yanukovych, and the perception (perhaps justified) that their interests are not represented by the new Rada, the violence was not spontaneous, and it came from outside the region.

Believe in the propaganda all you want. I happen to disagree.

[Boethius]

No "propaganda" stated oligarchs were funding the terrorists.

Russian journalists wrote "propaganda" about missing mercenaries, whose bodies were transported back to Russia. 

It was not "propaganda" that Poroshenko declared a unilateral ceasefire, and the terrorists used that ceasefire to kill and wound close to 100 soldiers and border patrols.

I've linked the "propaganda" from residents of cities Ukraine has retaken, telling their views of the "separatists" they supported.  That "propaganda", incidentally, also includes their criticism of Ukrainian forces for shelling their cities, causing massive destruction and, at times, death.

Even the Russians admit the "propaganda" that they have amassed tens of thousands on the Ukrainian border, though, of course, they claim it is "regular military exercises".

You will never believe the fact that the majority of the populations in this region did not support the "separatists".  If they had, Ukrainian forces would never have retaken the regions that they have.