Another plane crash - Perm

[viking]

MOSCOW - A passenger jet traveling from Moscow to the Ural Mountains city of Perm crashed near residential buildings as it was preparing to land early Sunday, killing all 88 people aboard, officials said.

Emergency Situations Ministry spokeswoman Irina Andrianova said there was no indication of terrorism in the crash of the Boeing-737-500, which went down on the outskirts of the city at about 3:15 a.m. local time.

Flight 821 operated by an Aeroflot subsidiary carried 82 passengers and six crew members, Aeroflot said in a statement. Among those killed were citizens from the United States, France, Turkey, Switzerland, Germany, Italy and Latvia, company spokeswoman Irina Danenberg said.

[roykirk]

I just talked to my girlfriend on the phone.  She said that she was watching the news this morning and some talking head aviation expert surmised that it crashed because it was an American made airplane, and that they needed to start making more better quality Russian airplanes or purchase more Airbus.     Hmm, I suppose all those Tupelov's augering in to the ground over the decades were because of unavoidable bird strikes?  Bottom line, Russia has one of the worst airplane safety records in the world, it doesn't matter if they're flying Boeing or an Ilyushin.

[OlgaH]

The investigation considers 10 versions of crash. The Boeing started to collapse and caught fire during its flight at a height of 1800 meters.

Before the Aeroflot Nord the Boeing was exploited by China company Xiamen Airlines. The Boeing was produced in 1992 and rented since 28th July 2008 till 21st March 2013. The leasing company is PINEWATCH LIMITED in Dublin.

American corporation Boeing is ready to render assistance in investigation of crash. 

Two lawsuits were filed Wednesday against the Chicago-based Boeing Company for separate international plane wrecks, one of which killed 154 people in Madrid.

http://www.nbc5.com/news/17385511/detail.html
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9823531.asp?scr=1

Fatal Boeing 737 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

[viking]

An update I just read says it was engine failure. One of the two engines cut off during the landing approach.

[docetae]

An update I just read says it was engine failure. One of the two engines cut off during the landing approach.

Please wait to have complete report. One engine failure can not bring a plane down. This is usual part of training to do approach on one engine.

[roykirk]

The investigation considers 10 versions of crash. The Boeing started to collapse and caught fire during its flight at a height of 1800 meters.

Before the Aeroflot Nord the Boeing was exploited by China company Xiamen Airlines. The Boeing was produced in 1992 and rented since 28th July 2008 till 21st March 2013. The leasing company is PINEWATCH LIMITED in Dublin.

American corporation Boeing is ready to render assistance in investigation of crash. 


 
http://www.nbc5.com/news/17385511/detail.html
http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/world/9823531.asp?scr=1

Fatal Boeing 737 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

Fatal crashes involving Tupolev, Yak, Ilyushin, and other Russian made airplanes (just since 1990): 

http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/fsu.htm

[roykirk]

Please wait to have complete report. One engine failure can not bring a plane down. This is usual part of training to do approach on one engine.

While I'm certainly no aviation expert, I do know of crashes where the loss of one engine has brought a plane down.  I know in reading the investigation of the Concorde crash that investigators believe part of the problem (aside from the serious fire), was that they lost an engine which caused enough loss of lift that they couldn't gain enough altitude to make a return to the airport.  I also read the report of a 747 that went down after an engine fell off.  Apparently the failure caused such a massive and unequal shift in the stresses on the frame that two more engines fell off before it disintegrated.  Probably unusual events, but I could certainly see where an engine failure, especially one that is rapid and unexpected, could cause a fatal loss of control.

[docetae]

About concorde, this is serious fire first that make engine shutdown and broke all hydraulic systems.... After there is a difference between engine failure and losing physically one engine. This is definitely not the same issue....

[OlgaH]

Fatal crashes involving Tupolev, Yak, Ilyushin, and other Russian made airplanes (just since 1990): 

http://www.airsafe.com/events/airlines/fsu.htm

Boeing since 1990 till 2007

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp?spage=1&x_page_size=500&sql=Y&p1=1%2F1%2F1990&p2=1%2F1%2F2008&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=Air&p7=&p8=boeing&p9=&p10=&p11=like+%27SCH%25%27&p12=&p13=&p14=&p15=&p16=ev%5Fdate&p17=Asc&p18=&p19=&p20=&p21=&p22=&p23=&p24=

[roykirk]

Boeing since 1990 till 2007

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/Response2.asp?spage=1&x_page_size=500&sql=Y&p1=1%2F1%2F1990&p2=1%2F1%2F2008&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=Air&p7=&p8=boeing&p9=&p10=&p11=like+%27SCH%25%27&p12=&p13=&p14=&p15=&p16=ev%5Fdate&p17=Asc&p18=&p19=&p20=&p21=&p22=&p23=&p24=

Boeing airplanes involved in crashes aren't really the point, because along with Airbus, it's what most of the world's airlines fly (and in any case, most of the flights in your link are non-fatal "incidents" whereas the ones in my link all involved fatalities).  The only thing that matters is rate of accidents per miles flown, and with that consideration, Russian airlines are recognized by international airline safety groups (i.e. not evil capitalist ones run by the US trying to make Russia look bad) as having one of the worst safety records.  Poor maintenance and poorly trained pilots are suspected to be the primary problem (hmm, let's turn the controls over to our 15 year old son, shall we?). 

I'm assuming you agree with the aforementioned talking head that this never would have occurred with a solidly built Russian plane?   

[OlgaH]

most of the flights in your link are non-fatal "incidents" whereas the ones in my link all involved fatalities

Fatal Boeing 727 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b727.htm

Fatal Boeing 737 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b737.htm

Fatal Boeing 747 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/boeing.htm

Fatal Boeing 757 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b757.htm

Fatal Boeing 767 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b767.htm

Fatal Boeing 777 Events
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/b777.htm

Other McDonnell Douglas/Boeing Models DC10, MD80, MD11, MD90
http://www.airsafe.com/events/models/dc9.htm

[roykirk]

Apparently I've got my answer.     Hopefully that will calm my nerves on the next 40 year old Tupolev I have to be on out of SVO, because by nature I'm a nervous flyer.  To self while flying:  Remember, you're flying on the cutting edge of Russian technology, pay no attention to that hammer and sickle still on the tail.  It's one of the fastest passenger jets in the world.  That overhead luggage compartment is supposed to come apart like that, it's part of the design.   

[viking]

MOSCOW - The crash of a passenger jet that killed 88 people in a central Russian city was most likely caused by engine failure, a Russian investigator says.

Vladimir Markin said in televised remarks that a failure of one of the Boeing-737-500's two engines may have caused Sunday's crash.


The most likely cause of the crash was technical failure, Vladimir Markin, a spokesman for the federal prosecutors' Investigative Committee, said in televised comments.


This was posted about 2 hours ago. Draw your own conclusions.

[SANDRO43]

The most likely cause of the crash was technical failure, Vladimir Markin, a spokesman for the federal prosecutors' Investigative Committee, said in televised comments.

IINM, technical failures in non brand-new aircraft are usually attributable to poor maintenance. Who was responsible for it ?

[roykirk]

IINM, technical failures in non brand-new aircraft are usually attributable to poor maintenance. Who was responsible for it ?

Precisely. 

[Kuna]

Last year when Russia reclaimed the title for worlds most dangerous place to fly the Minister for Transport (or equivalent) reeled out some stats that showed a big bias of deaths on foreign built aircraft.  The stats were presented in a way that suggested it WAS safer on Russian built planes.

I remember the two main "tricks" in the stats:

1. More people died per crash on foreign built planes because they held more people, and;
2. The Minister pointed out more foreign built planes crash because the training wasn't as good - INCLUDING language problems with trainers.  One assumes training includes maintenance crews.

Still... it's very sad many people have lost their lives.

[SANDRO43]

2. The Minister pointed out more foreign built planes crash because the training wasn't as good - INCLUDING language problems with trainers. One assumes training includes maintenance crews.

I don't know if Boeing provides maintenance training/manuals in Russian, I rather doubt it as English is the international language of aviation, and I think maintenance crews are supposed to have a working knowledge of it: IIRC, maintenance establishments have to go through some sort of 'accreditation' process.

Other maintenance-related problems:
- Inspection: all countries have an equivalent of the CAA, who should conduct spot checks on maintenance sites, typically having inspectors periodically visiting them, asking to examine their log books and doing checks on random listed entries.
- Spare parts: original replacement parts are expensive, and there's a flourishing market for cheaper 'equivalent' parts, particularly in 3rd-world countries.
- Turn-around times/costs: since deregulation, airlines are under constant pressure to reduce them, and this may cause fatal errors due to haste/approximation. A Tunisian ATR42 crashed into the Mediterranean in shallow water last year due to lack of fuel. The subsequent accident investigation revealed that its fuel gauge had been erroneously replaced with that of another, similar aircraft, and was showing a reassuring fuel level in an otherwise empty tank.

Anybody still feeling like flying ?

[Shadow]

While the number of people killed or injured at once in an air crash is larger, when compared to the number of accidents by road cars, flying still is the safer travel method. If you are concerned for safety, bring your car to the garage.

[MaxxumUSA]

Ugh...

This report two days before I fly Aeroflot in Russia!!!

I fly to Moscow from states Wed the 17th then fly Aeroflot from Moscow to Samara on Thurs the 18th.

There was a crash in Samara last year 2 days before my March visit.

I guess the odds of two in a week is low?  I hope so.

- Maxxum

[roykirk]

Ugh...

This report two days before I fly Aeroflot in Russia!!!

I fly to Moscow from states Wed the 17th then fly Aeroflot from Moscow to Samara on Thurs the 18th.

There was a crash in Samara last year 2 days before my March visit.

I guess the odds of two in a week is low?  I hope so.

- Maxxum

I'm in the same boat, but I don't fly Aeroflot again for two weeks.  I'll still feel much safer on that Boeing 737 out of SVO than I am on the Tupolev 154 with the screws falling out of the walls that I have to take on my connection. 

[ConnerVT]

I fly to Moscow from states Wed the 17th then fly Aeroflot from Moscow to Samara on Thurs the 18th.

There was a crash in Samara last year 2 days before my March visit.

I wouldn't worry about the flight from the US to Moscow.  Except that there's a good chance your luggage won't join you on the trip.  The intercontinental part of Aeroflot is very good, with the newest aircraft and the best maintenance.  This is to keep their ability to service the Western countries, which have very strict standards regarding airframe maintenance.

Things just aren't as strict when dealing with Aeroflot-Dom, -Nord, or the other babyflot carriers.   

[Shadow]

Perhaps inland flight security is also less strict. Download a service manual and take a screwdriver.