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Author Topic: My view of the war  (Read 240867 times)

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Offline Muzh

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My view of the war
« Reply #500 on: October 01, 2014, 10:38:39 AM »

This is a good statement. We (America) are involved in just about every continent.   It is too much now. The American people generally would like to see a pullback and refocus on the home front.  Trotting around and facilitating the assassination of foreign leaders such as Assad or khadafi is not our job or decision. If continue to do these sort of things we should expect that other strong nations will follow suit.

Fathertime!


So, you speak for the American people in general, eh?


Just like Doll speak for the Russian people in general, right?
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead. Thomas Paine - The American Crisis 1776-1783

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #501 on: October 01, 2014, 10:55:38 AM »

So, you speak for the American people in general,
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Gator

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« Reply #502 on: October 01, 2014, 11:34:30 AM »
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.

Fathertime!


You are not reading the polls correctly.  The indisputable fact is there is little interest in foreign wars placing boots on the ground.  One year ago 70% of Americans opposed air strikes in Syria (after Syria's use of chemical weapons on its civilians).  Today, Seven in 10 Americans support air strikes against Islamic State insurgents in Syria.

[/size]http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/10/broad-backing-for-air-strikes-on-isis-less-for-u-s-forces-as-advisers-in-iraq/[/color]


Obama listened to ill-informed doves such as yourself and ignored Syria, allowing ISIS to develop.  We were so disconnected from Syria that until one month ago the US thought of ISIS as the junior varsity.

It would be nice my dear fathertime if the world was the utopia you envision.  However, there will always be bad guys and the US needs to be better informed and sometimes more involved than shown under the current administration.

Offline GQBlues

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« Reply #503 on: October 01, 2014, 11:49:07 AM »
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.

Fathertime!

I agree. More specifically regarding Ukraine...there's absolutely no interest or live coverage of whatever is going on in that country today, nor was there ever any interest or coverage of Poroshenko's last visit here.

Poll conducted last July pertaining to Ukraine:

Quote
Amid deepening violence across Eastern Europe and the Middle East, Americans are recoiling from direct engagement overseas and oppose U.S. involvement in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria and Ukraine by large margins, according to a POLITICO poll of 2014 battleground voters.

As for the US's global meddling reported by USAToday: http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/08/28/usa-today-pew-poll-us-role-in-the-world/14623319/

Growing majority skepticism by Americans with our foreign engagements conducted by NYT/CBS:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/07/world/americans-skeptical-of-involvement-in-foreign-conflicts-poll-finds.html?_r=0

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Offline fathertime

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« Reply #504 on: October 01, 2014, 11:50:46 AM »

You are not reading the polls correctly.  The indisputable fact is there is little interest in foreign wars placing boots on the ground.  One year ago 70% of Americans opposed air strikes in Syria (after Syria's use of chemical weapons on its civilians).  Today, Seven in 10 Americans support air strikes against Islamic State insurgents in Syria.

[/size]http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2014/10/broad-backing-for-air-strikes-on-isis-less-for-u-s-forces-as-advisers-in-iraq/[/color]


Obama listened to ill-informed doves such as yourself and ignored Syria, allowing ISIS to develop.  We were so disconnected from Syria that until one month ago the US thought of ISIS as the junior varsity.

It would be nice my dear fathertime if the world was the utopia you envision.  However, there will always be bad guys and the US needs to be better informed and sometimes more involved than shown under the current administration.
1. There is/ will be boots on the ground one way or another.

2. Why does it appear that I think the world is utopia?  I actually don't think that at all.

3. I follow world events rather close.  If I'm misinformed than 99.8% of the US populace including you are also misinformed. 

4.  It is possible at this particular point in time that there is support for strikes against ISIS, but that would be the exception.  I used the word generally for a reason.

Fathertime!
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Gator

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« Reply #505 on: October 01, 2014, 01:15:46 PM »
1. There is/ will be boots on the ground one way or another.


Depends on definitions.  Boots on the ground means regular combat units, not advisers, not training staff, etc.  By one definition,we have boots on the ground in every country where we have an embassy, namely the marine guards.




Quote
2. Why does it appear that I think the world is utopia?  I actually don't think that at all.




You have no proactive position against bad guys, as if they do not exist and would never harbor the intention to harm Americans or American interests.


 

Quote
3. I follow world events rather close.  If I'm misinformed than 99.8% of the US populace including you are also misinformed. 


 :ROFL:


Begs the question of who is the 100 - 99.8 = 0.2%.  Just because you read something does not mean you comprehend it, or more important able to see the big picture.  BTW, one follows closely. although you may be a close follower.
 


Quote
4.  It is possible at this particular point in time that there is support for strikes against ISIS, but that would be the exception.  I used the word generally for a reason.


You used the word "indisputable."    You did not use the word "generally" in what I quoted.   If you did in an earlier post, please note that the word "generally" in comparison with "indisputable" is like "good" vs. "best."    You used the phrase "It is possible..."   Does that mean you are wrong?  Are you sure you are not going out on a limb?    ;) [size=78%]  [/size]


Offline Boethius

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« Reply #506 on: October 01, 2014, 01:52:37 PM »
A piece in which a Russian soldier claims he was spirited into Ukraine in a "humanitarian aid" truck


http://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/pro-russian-separatist/
After the fall of communism, the biggest mistake Boris Yeltsin's regime made was not to disband the KGB altogether. Instead it changed its name to the FSB and, to many observers, morphed into a gangster organisation, eventually headed by master criminal Vladimir Putin. - Gerard Batten

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #507 on: October 01, 2014, 02:40:25 PM »

 


You have no proactive position against bad guys, as if they do not exist and would never harbor the intention to harm Americans or American interests.

[/size][size=78%]    [/size]
I don't think that is accurate.  I am all for executing people that are physically  harming Americans directly and without cause.  '"American interests", that is a different story and would depend on exactly what the circumstances are.











 
 


Begs the question of who is the 100 - 99.8 = 0.2%.  Just because you read something does not mean you comprehend it, or more important able to see the big picture.  BTW, one follows closely. although you may be a close follower.
 


I think you are confusing 'misinformed' with 'comprehend'.  I read lots and from various websites and talk to people, watch news, youtube etc etc.  I think I have lots of information.  I also think I comprehend much of it just fine.  I think I come up with some different conclusions than YOU might, that doesn't come from being 'misinformed' or not 'comprehending', it comes from looking at it differently than you might.  Not everybody has to agree about everything.



You used the word "indisputable."    You did not use the word "generally" in what I quoted.   If you did in an earlier post, please note that the word "generally" in comparison with "indisputable" is like "good" vs. "best."    You used the phrase "It is possible..."   Does that mean you are wrong?  Are you sure you are not going out on a limb?    ;) [/size][size=78%]  [/size][size=78%]


This is a little silly. It does appear that it is indisputable that American as a whole are NOT interested in foreign wars/interventions GENERALLY!  Of course there are certain situations, where a case can be made to change that FACT, but these are the exceptions.  If you don't get what is being said here, I don't know if it can be explained much better...or perhaps you do think Americans are interested in foreign intervention/wars. 
 
 
Fathertime!

I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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« Reply #508 on: October 01, 2014, 03:25:44 PM »
The American people have spoken through polls and the indisputable fact is...there is little interest in foreign wars and interference.

Fathertime!

Can you cite the poll you are referring to?

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #509 on: October 01, 2014, 03:54:11 PM »

You have no proactive position against bad guys, as if they do not exist and would never harbor the intention to harm Americans or American interests.
 


Argentina's President, is now convinced that the USA is looking to topple her, or assassinate her.  When random and rather neutral countries like Argentina are having these sort of complaints against the USA you certainly got to wonder what is going on?  This is obviously not an isolated incident.  Maybe we shouldn't be sticking our snout so far up the rear ends of so many govts. 


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/argentina-president-claims-us-plot




Fathertime!   
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Offline GQBlues

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« Reply #510 on: October 01, 2014, 04:01:52 PM »

Argentina's President, is now convinced that the USA is looking to topple her, or assassinate her.  When random and rather neutral countries like Argentina are having these sort of complaints against the USA you certainly got to wonder what is going on?  This is obviously not an isolated incident.  Maybe we shouldn't be sticking our snout so far up the rear ends of so many govts. 


http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/argentina-president-claims-us-plot




Fathertime!

Don't be silly. The US have such a *generous attitude* to be involved in these types of regime changes.

Can nor will never happen...
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lordtiberius

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« Reply #511 on: October 01, 2014, 04:13:07 PM »
Keep changing the subject maybe no one will notice

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #512 on: October 01, 2014, 05:25:55 PM »
Can you cite the poll you are referring to?
I can provide you a link, although you have left a gaping question on reply 30 unanswered in this thread for some strange reason: I will accept a flat denial... Or maybe you should come clean (show a little honor), IF the case warrants it. 
  [size=78%]http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?topic=18039.25[/size]


In any event, here is a nice link for you to read regarding a recent Politico Poll.


http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/despite-a-plethora-of-world-crises-americans-oppose-greater-foreign-intervention/


Perhaps you think there is wide support for the USA to stick our snout around the globe, but I don't see it.


Fathertime!   
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline AC

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« Reply #513 on: October 01, 2014, 06:15:35 PM »
Hah, I'm not a professional, I'm only a beginner in propaganda business :D
Answering your question, why not?  If russian volunteers became Russian army in west media interpretation, everything is possible. We can only guess how many US volunteers are fighting there  8)

Apparently neither one of you can read.  "Hunter" is fighting for the pro-Russian separatists, in the Vostok Battalion, against Ukraine.

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« Reply #514 on: October 01, 2014, 06:31:34 PM »
A piece in which a Russian soldier claims he was spirited into Ukraine in a "humanitarian aid" truck


http://www.vocativ.com/world/ukraine-world/pro-russian-separatist/

from the link you posted:
"Aleksey Yuryevich’s profile on VKontakte, or Russia’s Facebook, is about as vile as it gets. The brains and bowels of enemy soldiers are splattered across the floor in more than one image. In another photo, a dead enemy soldier appears with his pants off while a man who looks like Yuryevich poses for the camera. A soldier who also appears to be Yuryevich flips off an exploded Ukrainian military vehicle in another pic. (Ironically, the middle-finger salute has been an integral part of Ukrainian anti-Russian politics in the past year.)"

Offline Gator

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« Reply #515 on: October 01, 2014, 07:08:54 PM »


In any event, here is a nice link for you to read regarding a recent Politico Poll.


http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/despite-a-plethora-of-world-crises-americans-oppose-greater-foreign-intervention/




My God!  Look at what are you doing fathertime.

The date of the Politico report you cite is July 21, 2014.  For the ABC poll I cited showing 70% of Americans support airstrikes in Syria, the date is what?

Drum roll please.........October 1, 2014 as in TODAY!     


Now what happened between July and today?  I will tell you - videotaped beheadings of Americans by ISIS performed with the same aplomb and pride as a mohel at a brit milah.  This frightened the heretofore liberal  pansy asses, and things have changed considerably. 

If you are so well informed fathertime, why are you citing out of date polls?  The only possible answers are that you are trying to deceive us, or rationalize a position you know is wrong, or that you are indeed lame in the head.  I don't believe you are lame, so tell me why I should respect your views if you do not respect our views enough to discuss without twisting facts.


Let me try to focus your comprehensive readings of the news.


Unlike liberal doves, conservatives were not surprised by ISIS beheadings.  We certainly are not indifferent, yet we expected something bad knowing the world is full of bad guys and America's past preemptive measures have been replaced by a policy to do little other than wait for the bad guys to appear here.

Look how this has affected the liberals who were elected based on being a dove.  I quote your cited Politico as saying a number of liberal doves are now running for reelection as war hawks. 

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/2014-elections-senate-democrats-iraq-syria-111445.html?hp=l19

They make me sick.  They do what the polls tell them to do rather than do what is needed.  And people like you elect them again and again. 




Quote
Perhaps you think there is wide support for the USA to stick our snout around the globe, but I don't see it.




Of course you don't see it because you have never lived in the Middle East.  I will say something else.  Americans in general (using your qualifier) do not know what is best for them regarding foreign policy. 


I oft feel that Americans in general do not know what in general is best for them.  I say that based on the results of the last two Presidential elections.  Forgive me, I forgot.  We are suppose to be easy on him because this is his first job and he is black. 


Frankly, I am getting annoyed from reading about your position.  You criticize America for intervention policies when in comparison with past decades we have backed away from intervention.  OTOH you criticize Ukraine for defending itself against a neighboring bully who is grossly intervening in Ukraine, killing thousands of citizens, stealing sovereign land, downing a passenger airline from another country, etc. 


So what precisely is your policy?  You can not have it both ways.  If you are a non-interventionist, you should be criticizing Russia.  Oh, I know, Russia was justified because its vassal sate Ukraine wanted to better itself and break away from the Russian masters.  How dare they?   You better be convincing in your response because your empty rhetoric is becoming tedious. 


Offline Drew

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« Reply #516 on: October 01, 2014, 08:13:31 PM »
Oh, I know, Russia was justified because its vassal sate Ukraine wanted to better itself and break away from the Russian masters.  How dare they?   

Didn't you state earlier that your step son was a staunch supporter of Russia's current actions toward Ukraine?

If yes, then how is your relationship with him coming along?

I couldn't have a person in my house whose views on such matters were 180 degrees opposite of mine on such an important matter.

So - Just wondering !!

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #517 on: October 01, 2014, 08:22:59 PM »

My God!  Look at what are you doing fathertime.

The date of the Politico report you cite is July 21, 2014.   


Yes I cited a link from under 3 months ago, it isn't as if it is from 2 years ago.  At that point it had been several years of a Syrian Civil war and the US public was NOT interested.   Since that point there have been some public beheadings which have moved people to want to do something.  SO WHAT? 





If you are so well informed fathertime, why are you citing out of date polls?  The only possible answers are that you are trying to deceive us, or rationalize a position you know is wrong, or that you are indeed lame in the head.  I don't believe you are lame, so tell me why I should respect your views if you do not respect our views enough to discuss without twisting facts.





What a load of hysterical crapola!  Lets break this silliness down.
1.  I have linked an article AFTER 3 years of a civil war in which many have attempted to get us involved.  At that point, there still was little interest. 

2.  Now there appears to be support for some action on the group ISIS...BTW I didn't say there wasn't, as they are a special circumstance.  And so?  Does that mean that the USA population is interested in getting into foreign wars?  NO it does not, but in this case the beheadings seemed to have rallied some support. 

3.  I don't really care if you 'respect my views' or not if you are going to base it on a bunch of bologna as you are doing now. 

4.  None of what you have said has changed the fact that generally the US public IS not interested in foreign wars.  There are exceptions, but rarely so.

5.  That link I provided earlier was not just discussing ISIS, Ukraine and foreign intervention in general was discussed...and as it states most Americans opposed more foreign intervention. 






Frankly, I am getting annoyed from reading about your position.  You criticize America for intervention policies when in comparison with past decades we have backed away from intervention.  OTOH you criticize Ukraine for defending itself against a neighboring bully who is grossly intervening in Ukraine, killing thousands of citizens, stealing sovereign land, downing a passenger airline from another country, etc. 


That is fine by me if you are annoyed from my position, although and as what is becoming usual for you,  you are misrepresented a thing or two.   
1.  I don't care if Ukraine defends itself or not. It is THEIR choice to decide what they think is best for them.  I don't want the USA involved.
2. You may think that the USA hasn't been busy 'intervening' elsewhere, but I don't agree.  If other powerful nations decide to do something in the same vein, we aren't ones to demand they stop.






So what precisely is your policy?  You can not have it both ways.  If you are a non-interventionist, you should be criticizing Russia.  Oh, I know, Russia was justified because its vassal sate Ukraine wanted to better itself and break away from the Russian masters.  How dare they?  You better be convincing in your response because your empty rhetoric is becoming tedious. 






[/size]I've stated my position many times as the threads develop (as have others) I read some of your rhetoric but it doesn't bother me.  I simply state my own observations and argue the case...whether people like it or not!  [size=78%]     


Fathertime! 
I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

lordtiberius

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« Reply #518 on: October 01, 2014, 08:40:19 PM »
While the Putin Trolls are making side show spectacles of their moral disintegration, Russia is still invading Ukraine.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/01/ukrainian-forces-pro-russia-rebels-donetsk-airport

Offline fathertime

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« Reply #519 on: October 01, 2014, 09:04:56 PM »
While the Putin Trolls are making side show spectacles of their moral disintegration, Russia is still invading Ukraine.


I don't think there is much of a difference between somebody who cheers on US aggression, or Russian aggression....sometimes different means are used, but the result is a whole bunch of dead bodies and/or suffering.   


Fathertime!   
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« Reply #520 on: October 01, 2014, 09:09:09 PM »

Yes I cited a link from under 3 months ago, it isn't as if it is from 2 years ago.  At that point it had been several years of a Syrian Civil war and the US public was NOT interested.   Since that point there have been some public beheadings which have moved people to want to do something.  SO WHAT? 



You wrote, "So what?" 


Isn't that what Hillary told the Congressional committee investigating whether the White HOuse had mislead the American public about Benghazi?  She said it better, "What difference does it make" but it still was an indirect admission of misleading the public.  And in your case I take it as indirect admission of being wrong, that is, you were attempting to mislead us.







Quote
You may think that the USA hasn't been busy 'intervening' elsewhere, but I don't agree.  If other powerful nations decide to do something in the same vein, we aren't ones to demand they stop.


You can not be serious in thinking that US intervention is significant.  Consider the Kurds in Iraq fighting ISIS.  In August the US promised them direct military aid in their fight against ISIS.  Al Jazeera News said today that the US has not yet delivered the promised military aid.     How is that for intervention? 


The stateless and ancient people of Kurdistan have been fighting tyrants for centuries and somehow have survived.  Their goals are aligned with our goals.  They ask for help and we promise it, yet do not deliver it, leaving them to fight ISIS with outdated weapons, and meanwhile ISIS is armed with modern military weaponry that we originally gave to the corrupt Iraqi government. 




A serious question:  Fathertime, why are you a member of RWD?  You have zero interest in RW.   You treat this board as a political board when that subject should be the last thing we discuss. 


Maybe you attempted participating on an intellectually vigorous political board, and found you were out of their league.  I have news for you, I don't know if anyone is aligned with you here.  Maybe someone will post now that they agree with your win-win position.   If not......

Offline Gator

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« Reply #521 on: October 01, 2014, 09:11:42 PM »

   

 
 Didn't you state earlier that your step son was a staunch supporter of Russia's current actions toward Ukraine?
 
 If yes, then how is your relationship with him coming along?
 
 I couldn't have a person in my house whose views on such matters were 180 degrees opposite of mine on such an important matter.
 
 So - Just wondering !!
 

 
 Everything is fine.  Repeat fine.
 
 
 He is only 15, and God is never finished with 15-yo kids.   My stepson is feeling some of that Putin patriotism, reinforced by Skype conversations with his old friends and also reinforced by the girls at school liking his Russian accent (among other things). 
 
 
 He will eventually learn the truth.  We will see what he does with the truth. 
 
 
 Your comment about not having a person in your house with polar opposite views, I and the mother of my sons would stand in the election lines just to cancel each other's vote, yet we got along splendidly in life. 
 
 
 Patience, patience, patience...

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« Reply #522 on: October 01, 2014, 09:27:55 PM »

You wrote, "So what?" 


Isn't that what Hillary told the Congressional committee investigating whether the White HOuse had mislead the American public about Benghazi?  She said it better, "What difference does it make" but it still was an indirect admission of misleading the public.  And in your case I take it as indirect admission of being wrong, that is, you were attempting to mislead us.

 


You are once again INCORRECT!  I don't think I'd have any problem saying I was wrong/mistaken, IF I thought I was.   My statement continues to stand, despite your grandstanding about ISIS and that the American people are generally supportive of some action regarding it.   The general point still stands and that is should be obvious: The American people are generally not interested in these foreign conflicts.  This is NOT groundbreaking so i have no idea why you would act as if it is a controversial statement. 


It doesn't matter if anybody is 'aligned' with my position, a lot of positions overlap to a certain extent.  If you found you were 'out of your league' in other political boards, that is ok...this is not the big leagues.  I still have a general interest in the world.


So it seems you think that the USA is not very active around the world.  I will disagree with that, although it doesn't always show up with military action, it is still happening....the latest being Argentina complaining about us, as is Venezuela, Bolivia,  Brazil, and Cuba in our own hemisphere.  I'm ok with you being blinded to all this, but that doesn't change it....you may continue to believe that all the USA touches is candy crapping unicorns, and rainbows, but that is not how I've come to see it.  Much of our foreign policy stinks!  :) [size=78%]  [/size]


Fathertime! 



I just happened to be browsing about the internet....

Offline Belvis

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My view of the war
« Reply #523 on: October 02, 2014, 12:21:11 AM »
Apparently neither one of you can read.  "Hunter" is fighting for the pro-Russian separatists, in the Vostok Battalion, against Ukraine.
Exactly, US is fighting Ukraine in the same way just like Russia. I thought my sarcasm about double standards was clear enough.

Offline Belvis

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My view of the war
« Reply #524 on: October 02, 2014, 12:26:53 AM »
Your comment about not having a person in your house with polar opposite views, I and the mother of my sons would stand in the election lines just to cancel each other's vote, yet we got along splendidly in life. 
Me too. I'm afraid to look as  unprincipled person but I would  change the election line if she promise me a good meal for  disloyalty to my party.

 

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