Scammers and genuine eastern ladies

[ukthesis]

For what it's worth, here are my own experiences of a lady over in eastern Europe.  We plan to marry in the summer after I've been over there 8 or 9 times from the UK where I live.  The wedding is over there, in her home country.

Guys on these forums need to be realistic about the type of eastern lady they are likely to meet on these online sites. 95 percent of the ladies on these eastern sites are materially POOR by our standards.  Rich eastern women will not normally come on the regular online dating or marriage sites to advertise themselves.  They can do a lot better by using elite social contacts and marrying rich western men who use other channels to meet their own type. 

So for the average western guy, be prepared to come across a MAJORITY of ladies over there who are NOT able to pay the airfare to come to the UK or USA and return home, or to pay for themselves for any other relatively expensive purchases.  Moreover, when you meet, you may discover that you pay some of the bills for both of you.  Especially if (as in my case) the lady has to take time from work to see you and thus she loses wages each time you go there to be together.  She still has apartment bills to pay, few savings, and (in the case of my own lady) a daughter to pay through university (which is not free and there are no loans).  In this case, you will be expected to compensate her for lost income and to understand why.

So, you will have to be prepared to fork out for most of the time she is with you.  This is simply because of the bad economic situation of most of the ladies from the east who are on these sites.  You have disposable money she does not have.  This, however, does NOT automatically mean they are either scammers or only interested in you so long as you can give them money.  This is where western guys can end up getting the wrong idea if they think they can easily identify a scammer, because she asks them for money or to pay for restaurant bills for example.

If you place yourself in the place of the lady you are attracted to over there, and you are struggling to pay the bills for basic services, which is common, you would expect that a guy you explained this to would understand why you ask him to pay some expenses, if he is genuine and wants to help you and to have a future with you.  To be a real dushechka (soul mate) who is reliable and tries to use his better economic situation to build a life for both of you.

This is why it is hard to identify scammers from genuine ladies in that region.  They both initially seem like they are high maintenance and reluctant to spend much of their own money.  But the real and fake ones come to it from completely different directions and for opposite reasons.  This is where you can only fall back on your intuition as to the true motives of the lady in question.  There are no hard and fast ways to separate the behaviour of scammers from real ladies who, as I say, would ideally not like to have the guy pick up most of the tabs but who find it necessary because of the bad economic situation they are in.

In my case, because I had a strong feeling that I found a genuine lady, I put this problem to one side after I encountered it on my first trip over there, and paid.  If I'd been of a cynical frame of mind, I might have considered her a scammer and not gotten involved.  But I am SO glad I put this fear to one side, consented to paying when asked, and now as I say we are getting married.

For the guys who think she still may be a scammer.  We decided that because of various factors, it will be better if I moved to her country rather than her coming here to the UK to enjoy a higher standard of living.  So she wants to stay over there (with me by her side) living in relative poverty.  So she is not interested in UK citizenship and the material benefits that come from it.  And she has no interest in opening a joint bank account with me, which she could then use to siphon off my money in years to come.  So I keep most of my money in my sole account, back in the UK, proving she is not after my money either. 

So tales of eastern European scammers that guys on these forums often get warned about are not the only side to the story.  Even good ladies over there will expect the guy, normally, to pay for some of her expenses when they are together.  And they are often not able to pay for the cost of return flights to the UK or USA, so expect to pay for those larger expenses also.  This does, however, not automatically mean they are fakes.  You really have to judge them as people, keep an open mind on their motives, and reflect on their personal circumstances as she describes them. 

If they show an unusual interest in your bank accounts, of course, you need to think of this and wonder.  Or if they keep on asking you about the material benefits from living in the west, that might also set off alarm signals.  But do not meet them with a pre-determined view of the "typical signs" she will display if she is a scammer and because of this, possibly lose the chance of a lifetime with the girl over there of your dreams.

[JayH]

Nice post-- I have often tried to make the same point myself. My view is that guys should pay everything and look after her out of pocket cost incurred in meeting. Sure-- you run the risk of being scammed-but your brain is still there. Being overly concerned about being scammed has the greater possibility of turning off a girl very fast-being"greedy" is a cardinal red flag for a girl !!
I also think that spending a few bucks in a learning curve will not kill western guys-it is far better than prematurely screaming scammer!!

The other major part guys should realise--it is a very hazardous adventure for girls also-not just you!

[KenInUtah]

Maybe another idea would be for the guys to learn a little bit about Russian culture.  In Russia it is expected that a guy pay for dates, dinners...for both of them.  That is the chivalrous culture.  While everything you said is true, it behooves the guys to learn a little before engaging in this endeavor.

Here's where Russians differ strikingly from Western Europeans. They don't go Dutch. So, if you ask a lady out, don't expect her to pay for herself, not at a restaurant or anywhere else. You can, of course, suggest that she pay, but that usually rules out the possibility of seeing her again. She may not even have money on her. Unless they expect to run into a maniac and have to escape through the back exit, Russian women wouldn't think of bringing money when going out with a man.

[BillyB]

Maybe another idea would be for the guys to learn a little bit about Russian culture.  In Russia it is expected that a guy pay for dates, dinners...for both of them.  That is the chivalrous culture.  While everything you said is true, it behooves the guys to learn a little before engaging in this endeavor.

Here's where Russians differ strikingly from Western Europeans. They don't go Dutch. So, if you ask a lady out, don't expect her to pay for herself, not at a restaurant or anywhere else. You can, of course, suggest that she pay, but that usually rules out the possibility of seeing her again. She may not even have money on her. Unless they expect to run into a maniac and have to escape through the back exit, Russian women wouldn't think of bringing money when going out with a man.

I dated a RW living in America. On the first date she took the check and said she'd pay for half. I took the check and said I'll pay for it all and let her know that although we're in America, I don't approve of the changing times that a woman pays for half on a date. She later told me that if I let her pay for half, I wouldn't get a second date. She also told me a story about a guy who was happy she offered to pay for half and he even calculated what each other owed to the last penny. He didn't get a second date.

[RoboCop]

Good post ukthesis.

I like what you say about intuition, I can't help but to feel though some men lack any form of social awareness whatsoever, and are destined to get scammed because they have "sucker" written all over them.

I basically did the samething you did before I married my wife. I paid for 99% of things, she had a decent job compared to most people in her country, but still, getting her to take time off work to go on holiday to Turkey and most of Central Asia, was way out of her budget. I paid for everything, but she made up for it in other ways. Not once did I seriously consider she might be scamming me. If you have decent social acuity, your intuition will be able to pick up on the behaviour of someone who is genuine, and someone who isn't.

[facetrock]

 Excellent post Ukthesis! Some of the best advice I've heard here. Especially the part about the ladies losing wages when they either take a trip with you or spend a lengthy amount of time with you when your there.  Some might not agree with me but I believe in compensating them for their lost time. Life it tough enough over there. No need to make a woman blow a hole in here budget.

[STaty]

Maybe another idea would be for the guys to learn a little bit about Russian culture.  In Russia it is expected that a guy pay for dates, dinners...for both of them.  That is the chivalrous culture.  While everything you said is true, it behooves the guys to learn a little before engaging in this endeavor.

[STaty]

Hi guys! In Russia, when a man likes a woman he would pay dinner, opening the door for her, shake hands when she gets out. He takes care of her because he likes her. Every Russian woman would like to have it. But if she does not like a man, she can pay for the dinner herself. But  then will not continue.....

[Faux Pas]

Good post ukthesis.

I like what you say about intuition, I can't help but to feel though some men lack any form of social awareness whatsoever, and are destined to get scammed because they have "sucker" written all over them.

I basically did the samething you did before I married my wife. I paid for 99% of things, she had a decent job compared to most people in her country, but still, getting her to take time off work to go on holiday to Turkey and most of Central Asia, was way out of her budget. I paid for everything, but she made up for it in other ways. Not once did I seriously consider she might be scamming me. If you have decent social acuity, your intuition will be able to pick up on the behaviour of someone who is genuine, and someone who isn't.

Excellent post Ukthesis! Some of the best advice I've heard here. Especially the part about the ladies losing wages when they either take a trip with you or spend a lengthy amount of time with you when your there.  Some might not agree with me but I believe in compensating them for their lost time. Life it tough enough over there. No need to make a woman blow a hole in here budget.

Did you guys really read that post?

[BillyB]

Hi guys! In Russia, when a man likes a woman he would pay dinner, opening the door for her, shake hands when she gets out.

I would also offer my arm to a lady I'm dating when walking down the street and when greeting her or saying goodbye, kiss her.

[GregfromGa]

All of this is well and good but at the end of the day the marrying is the easy part. Staying married is where it gets a little more difficult to say the least. If some has never been married to a RW/UW then they have absolutely no basis in trying to form an opinion and giving loads of advice on said matter. If she arrives to wherever and things aren't like she thought and she's not wiling to acclimate to her surrounds well then the wheels will surely come off the wagon.

[Noch1]

All of this is well and good but at the end of the day the marrying is the easy part. Staying married is where it gets a little more difficult to say the least. If some has never been married to a RW/UW then they have absolutely no basis in trying to form an opinion and giving loads of advice on said matter. If she arrives to wherever and things aren't like she thought and she's not wiling to acclimate to her surrounds well then the wheels will surely come off the wagon.

I agree, yet some on these forums believe you need to married 10,20 or more years before you know anything also. LOL

[jone]

I had the opportunity, while in Russia last week, to invite a young (married) Mom out with young baby.  She was a guest of me and my hosts that were looking after me.

Halfway through the meal, she had a call from her husband and things did not go well.  I never found out what the problem was.  She got up from our meal and had to leave.  As she was leaving, she gave our host (and ultimately me, as I was paying for the meal)  a thousand rubles.  When I explained to everyone that I was paying and that she need not contribute, they all told me that it was considered an (unintentional) insult that she did not stay through the meal and that it was her duty to contribute. 

I know that the place we were eating at was way above her budget.  She basically sacrificed two days of pay to uphold her honor in the situation.  I was impressed.

[Boethius]

The problem was she went out to a social function without him.

[Boethius]

All of this is well and good but at the end of the day the marrying is the easy part. Staying married is where it gets a little more difficult to say the least. If some has never been married to a RW/UW then they have absolutely no basis in trying to form an opinion and giving loads of advice on said matter. If she arrives to wherever and things aren't like she thought and she's not wiling to acclimate to her surrounds well then the wheels will surely come off the wagon.

I think the issue is not one of a FSUW, it is one of not understanding the culture and hence, who to avoid and who not to avoid.  Lack of an ability to communicate on a deep level is also an issue.   If those were put aside, there is no difference in women anywhere.  You are uniting with a soul.

[Boethius]

I agree, yet some on these forums believe you need to married 10,20 or more years before you know anything also. LOL

I disagree.  I believe what has been stated is a marriage is not successful until after a certain number of years.  I have stated over 14 years in the past, as that is the average number of years before divorce.


One may have had a successful relationship, but not a successful marriage, if the end result is divorce.

[STaty]

Halfway through the meal, she had a call from her husband and things did not go well.  I never found out what the problem was.  She got up from our meal and had to leave.  As she was leaving, she gave our host (and ultimately me, as I was paying for the meal)  a thousand rubles.  When I explained to everyone that I was paying and that she need not contribute, they all told me that it was considered an (unintentional) insult that she did not stay through the meal and that it was her duty to contribute. 

I know that the place we were eating at was way above her budget.  She basically sacrificed two days of pay to uphold her honor in the situation.  I was impressed.

[STaty]

Hi! she is right. She has a husband and has no plans to meet a serious relationship for a family with you. She pays herself.

[jone]

Hi! she is right. She has a husband and has no plans to meet a serious relationship for a family with you. She pays herself.

There was never an inference of a man/woman relationship.  I am already committed.   Which brings me to another point.   I would never imagine sharing a meal with a woman that I wasn't involved with or hoping to be involved with, alone, without chaperonage.

Boe, my general belief is that the husband was out of town or he, also, would have been at the luncheon.  And I think she was there at his instruction.  All the people at the table were good friends.  I was the outsider.

[LAman]

I had the opportunity, while in Russia last week, to invite a young (married) Mom out with young baby.  She was a guest of me and my hosts that were looking after me.

Halfway through the meal, she had a call from her husband and things did not go well.  I never found out what the problem was.  She got up from our meal and had to leave.  As she was leaving, she gave our host (and ultimately me, as I was paying for the meal)  a thousand rubles.  When I explained to everyone that I was paying and that she need not contribute, they all told me that it was considered an (unintentional) insult that she did not stay through the meal and that it was her duty to contribute. 

I know that the place we were eating at was way above her budget.  She basically sacrificed two days of pay to uphold her honor in the situation.  I was impressed.

2 days pay? Really? 1000 rubles is ~$20........she earns $10 per day????

[jone]

2 days pay? Really? 1000 rubles is ~$20........she earns $10 per day????

LA Man, when is the last time you were in Russia?  This is the central Russia area, not Moscow or St. Petersburg.

The answer to your question is:  Yes.  Two days pay.  The figure of two days pay came up in discussion post the event.  The lady in question is a yoga instructor and mother.

I gave a tip at the end of the meal of 500 Rubles and the people practically fell of their chairs, they were blown away.  I felt I was being conservative.

[LAman]

LA Man, when is the last time you were in Russia?  This is the central Russia area, not Moscow or St. Petersburg.

The answer to your question is:  Yes.  Two days pay.  The figure of two days pay came up in discussion post the event.  The lady in question is a yoga instructor and mother.

I gave a tip at the end of the meal of 500 Rubles and the people practically fell of their chairs, they were blown away.  I felt I was being conservative.

Does Cheboksary count???? 

Maybe the husband called because the lady was spending too much money eating out ?
Maybe lady has only one class per day, She surely doesn't work 8 hours a day!!!
I know there are many smaller cities being affected by economy, losing hours if not jobs.

[Subnuclear]

My x was making 30,000 Rubles per month (university educated). She did and still does consider it a great job. good months they would give them a 10,000 to 15,000 ruble bonus...lately there have not been any good months.

also remember that 6 months ago it was closer to 27 dollars a day. in july of 14 when i was there it was like 36rubles to dollar if i remember correctly.
While the ruble fell against the dollar most peoples salaries (maybe some not most?) did not increase. So my x went form making over800 dollars on average per month to about 500 dollars on average when i was last there.

ok i edited this to correct my horrendous math.