Russian Women Discussion
RWD Discussion Groups => Starting Out => Topic started by: SMS60 on October 27, 2009, 06:16:48 AM
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Is it a good idea for men in international relationships to seek advice on relationships from the members of RWD?
I ask this in wake of the numerous relationship failures by members of this forum. I suspect there are more but they have not surfaced yet. Sometimes you can sense it by the way they post.
Does this forum need to be giving advice on relationships? Yes and No.
Some members have a good understanding of how it works. Others do not.
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It is IMHO impossible for anyone to give relationship advice based on the little details that can be posted on an internet forum.
The RWD membership can give hints on if certain things are the result of cultural background (usually 90% not), are 'normal' in international relations (usual 90% not), or should be considered a usual trait in women (no comment).
From this they can determine if there is a relationship and if it has issues.
As far as seeking adviise on how to improve a relationship, one may just as well ask the local grannies.
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Is it a good idea for men in international relationships to seek advice on relationships from the members of RWD?
I ask this in wake of the numerous relationship failures by members of this forum. I suspect there are more but they have not surfaced yet. Sometimes you can sense it by the way they post.
Does this forum need to be giving advice on relationships? Yes and No.
Some members have a good understanding of how it works. Others do not.
As may be seen in our RWD Vision (http://www.russianwomendiscussion.com/index.php?pid=33), the fundamental purpose of RWD is to expand our collective knowledge and understanding. Whether that falls into the category of "advice" is something each individual must decide for themselves.
For my part, RWD was started as an effort to 'give something back' to a community that had been helpful to me when I needed it. Since then RWD has provided innumerable insights I might not have gained otherwise. I do not take anything from RWD as Gospel. I 'test' everything I read here in the context of my values and aspirations - and I take aboard those things from RWD that help, and reject that which does not. In the end, it is always my choice and my decision and I use RWD as a resource - the same way I encourage others.
BTW - your comment that; "you can sense it by the way they post" is potentially a risky proposition. I learned quite some time ago that it is best to not assume anything - and to give others the benefit of the doubt. Just a point of perspective, FWIW.
- Dan
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An interesting question certainly, but probably a bit vague. I think as a man searches there is a lot of value in what is to be read on these forums, but understand that most people will give you statements based exclusively on thier experiences. This can be good or bad, but it is worth remembering that thier experiences are dictated by well them. How they approach things etc... What works for one man will not work for another. The first place anyone should start searching for any mate is himself. You have to know who you are and what is acceptable for you. You have to know what your comfortable with. I think a lot of value is to be found in the experiences of others, so long as you remember that your not baking cookies here. Everyone is different.
As for relationship advice, I think some general comments about what the transition to american culture was like is valuable, but when you seek such advice you have to place a filter on it so that it applies to your girl. Not every woman is the same and hence they will all react to the culture shock differently.
As for marital advice, well the first place you should go to for marital advice IMO is your spouse. If your going here then there has been a communication breakdown with your partner and no problem can ever be solved unless you solve the communication problem first.
The one thing, and boy am I going to get hit for saying this, I would point out is that IMO often times people who are divorced, at least while they are divorcing or just after thier divorce, may be the worst people ask about why they got divorced. When talking to people it always helps to ask yourself 1)is this person really over it enough to offer objective positions, 2)Is this person simply throwing all the blame on the partner, 3) Is this person self reflective enough to even come to question one in the first place.
In short there is a lot of valuable advice here, but like all advice the key is not in recieving it, the key is in knowing which of it applies to you.
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I think that first of all it is a forum where some people are just sharing their experience in international dating, nobody can actually advise you , I agree here with Shadow.
This forum is trying to bring people together who have similar situations - foreign men married Russian women, or Russian women married foreign men and so on
And concerning failures in marriage of some members here it is just how life is, you should not think of anyone as a God in relations because people make mistakes and people can not resolve their issues no matter how authoritative, experienced they might sound here in the forum.
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I will (over)generalize and state my opinion that there are three types:
1. Those who learn from their mistakes;
2. Those who learn from the mistakes of others;
3. Those who never learn.
The first and second can certainly benefit from discussions in forum or real life, the latter can provide some entertainment when bored ;)
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This forum does provide some useful insights to the whole process, but it does require some filtering of the information. :wallbash:
Dave
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1. Those who learn from their mistakes;
2. Those who learn from the mistakes of others;
3. Those who never learn.
This is a theory. In practice exclude #2
Actually #2 helps to understand that you are not that dull like others :D
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Sometimes mistakes can be a lot of fun. 8)
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Depends on what advise your looking for and who answers it.
For example, when it comes to whether to use a tour, agency, free personals, newspaper, roam the streets, etc there are many ways to find your true love. However, people who have actually tried the methods may give you some tips that may or may not help. I used to know the agencies in Kiev but have been out of that scene almost 2 years. So I could provide little advise as the agencies change quickly. Even where to stay in Kiev as I now stay at the intercontinental hotel in Kiev rather than rent apartment. Hotel life is just cleaner, easier, etc. But probably not the best place for a man searching for a wife.
I find this forum interesting but you see many men come on this forum and you know the trainwreck is going to happen or divorce is in the future. I have not been surprised by one failed relationship here. When people marry a younger wife and they do not have kids that is a huge red flag to me. Time is ticking.
You will also see many men who once get married never come back to this forum. Probably because they get bored as the same topics and answers are out there. I will admit I like reading the trainwrecks. Shame on me. But all good news is boring.
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Advice?
Nope..and avoid generalities
Those who tend to generalize, generally tend to be wrong.
Now..information?
You can just get that at RWD
Good luck to all
Karl
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I will admit I like reading the trainwrecks. Shame on me.
I confess that I also find the train wrecks more interesting to read.
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To the OP's question, yes with two caveats:
1. Some advice here is bad; however, this usually becomes apparent when other posters jump in.
2. Every situation is different, and the man must make battlefield decisions.
I started reading 7 years ago after my first trip. I survived that trip and actually met my wife yet did not know it at the time. However, if I had read RWD before I would have had even more fun and spent less money.
As I got deeper and deeper into the process I gained a lot of knowledge from JB, KenC, Jet, AJ, DonnaPedro, etc. This knowledge helped me as I deliberated regarding: whether a RW was worth the trouble, the implications of cultural differences, how to jump the next hurdle, etc.
Also, my local friends thought me crazy so I needed to spend time in a friendly club filled with other crazy men.
Now I don't know why I post other than I like to:
- hear success stories, :kissing:
- reminisce, :)
- enjoy a good debate, :arguing:
- want to help the newbie, 8)
- and become titillated by the graphic sex. :evil: :o
Oh yes, the occasional idiots are entertaining in their own way :ROFL:. Train wrecks make me feel bad :'(.
As far as understanding how to live with RW, I need to understand only one, and I can depend on her to tell me when and how I am wrong. ;D
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Gator, Now that is a very wise post 8) " As far as understanding how to live with RW, I need to understand only one, and I can depend on her to tell me when and how I am wrong."
Dave
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You try on cloths and sometimes they fit, and sometimes they don't. You cant always tell from how they look in the window.
A couple of points:
1, Russian, Eastern European women, generally speaking, are educated and refined with a strong character. They can be beautiful. That puts them on top of the food chain. American men seeking foreign wives, generally speaking, are right brained, successful, and with experiences ( and that may imply, with past mistakes in life that they are trying to correct the second time around. ) That puts them at the middle, to the bottom of the food chain. So, if and when these two people get together, there can be a balancing that is more uncertain than normal, again, generally speaking. Can an advise forum help with that? Certainly not.
2, Scammers on the hunt. "Scammers" or professional daters are women with tons of game. The men who are taken in - attracted by these women and taken advantage of - usually have no game. The result is predicable. Can an advise forum help that? Just a little, but not really.
3, Cultural differences and a million little things. I started to write a couple of paragraphs to illustrate the point, but deleted them. It would take a book. It is those things that this board particularly can help with.
4, Lastly, this is a group of intelligent people with enough boldness and individualism to ask "what is possible?" The topic creates a like-mindedness amongst its members. (I found this place some time ago and enjoy the dialog. Although these ideas were central in my living much of the last two years in Central and South America, I still have not visited Eastern Europe and Russian is looking increasingly as being an unattractive destination.)
I think , for the man, 75% of success is knowing himself; what he wants, and what he is willing to give to have what he wants. Guys that are prone to get "crushes" are their own worst enemies. So, the advice is free. And what is it they say about buying free advise? buyer beware:)
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Russian, Eastern European women, generally speaking, are educated and refined with a strong character. They can be beautiful. That puts them on top of the food chain. American men seeking foreign wives, generally speaking, are right brained, successful, and with experiences ( and that may imply, with past mistakes in life that they are trying to correct the second time around. ) That puts them at the middle, to the bottom of the food chain.
So RW are sharks and AM are chum? ;D
I disagree with one point. IMO, advice can help the men with little experience regarding scammers. I say that because the ploys are routine and readily apparent, and are not as sophisticated as a carny trick. A man needs to know just a few signs to recognize he is the being fleeced. However, if the guy's testosterone is signaling him that he is going to get some, you are correct, he is hopeless.
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And what is it they say about buying free advise?
That it is worth every penny
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Does this forum need to be giving advice on relationships?
Absolutely. My wife, a PhD. in math and physics from Moscow Laminosov University, considers me slightly better than a talking Labrador Retriever but is absolutely amazed at my skill in choosing a quality woman. (I joke, I joke but only a little)
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I am the only person qualified to give advice on anything around here. All Hail Me!!!
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I've found RWD particularly helpful, but you also have to be very, very careful in what advice you do take. When I first related how I met my wife (using EM but decided to meet in a neutral country first), I was warned by several people this was the sign of a scammer because she was clearly trying to hide something. When we were preparing to get married and she asked me about pre-nuptial agreements, several people told me to dump her immediately as she was just trying to get a Green Card (we talked about it but decided not to do it). I know people are probably just trying to help, but thank goodness I didn't follow any of that advice, or I would have lost the most loving and wonderful person I've ever met.
My theory is follow advice where possible, but also recognize that sometimes you have to follow your heart. Of course sometimes people get burned following their heart, but that's going to happen with or without RWD.
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I read this forum but do not post much.
I do not post much because most of what is written is not interesting to me but some of it is.
I will say that there is good advice to be taken in the physical how do I get there, what are the costs of hotels, visa issues both in Russia and America, divorce and married protocol but very little else is anything more than ego, chat and stereotype.
Almost everything written about FSU woman is stereotype general rubbish when I compare it to myself and my friends. :o :rolleyes2:
I know this port will be ignored by most and that womans like me will continue to be spoken of in the stereotype way because it is the only way some ego can compete here.
Mt advice although it will be deemed worthless as I am only RW is to stick to asking basic actual physical help questions.
When you arrive here be yourself and let others be individual also.
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Well Bored1, I didn't ignore your post :D
As far as your comments I actually tend to agree with you. I think its always dangerous to say all RW are like ....... or all AM are like ..... or anything really.
I also agree in there is very good advice on the physical how I get there? Where do we go when together?
Also I think some good advice on how to take a ruined trip and get something out of it.
But as for me, I liked your post.
Roy, I think you make a very valid point. A person has to know when to take the advice given and when to throw the advice away. Yes, you may get burned and do something you were advised not to do, but as in your case you may not as well.
Getting scammed is a terrible thing and I think the experience tends to warp some peoples perspective, but like all experiences in life it is in the end just one of them.
the other areas I would RWD is very good at, is it has been a nice support network for people trying to get back on thier feet after bad experiences. I personally like trading stories with the other posters just because I find thier stories fascinating.
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Is a funny but good question..
When asked in person about this whole RW thing I'll quickly respond 'move on' regardless.. AKA one of those 'if you have to ask, forget it' type things.. same you get from the salesperson when you walk into a store where there are no price tags except they will usually roll their eyes and let you count the hairs in their nose.
On the forum it's a little different because by the time someone gets here they are usually so hooked on this venture (and probably a specific girl) that whatever you say it won't make a darn bit of difference. I've only seen one or two that 'bowed out' gracefully after conceding that this might not be a wise choice for them. I tip my hat to those Men (yes with a capitol M).
RWD sorta sits at the edge of the 'event horizon' so giving a nudge here or there might make a difference to those that absolutely insist on diving in to the black hole but it will still remain a 'fly by the seat of your pants' venture for the most part.
Just remember, if you lined up 1000 typical guys interested in RW and told 999 to just forget about it chances are you would be doing much more good than harm.. The 1000th will probably insist and end up at RWD but his chances of 'success' (whatever that is) are always 50/50, either you make it or you don't.
Ever wonder why so many seem to not want advice, but instead only confirmation?
We know roughly 10 FSUW/WM couples and over the years two have split. None anywhere close to MOB circumstances and none that I know of actively sought a FSUW. Mostly plain and simple boy meets girl scenarios.
It's the 'actively seeking' part that worries me the most and I don't see anything at all resembling sanity jetting halfway around the planet to chase skirt.
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I read this forum but do not post much.
I do not post much because most of what is written is not interesting to me but some of it is.
I will say that there is good advice to be taken in the physical how do I get there, what are the costs of hotels, visa issues both in Russia and America, divorce and married protocol but very little else is anything more than ego, chat and stereotype.
Almost everything written about FSU woman is stereotype general rubbish when I compare it to myself and my friends. :o :rolleyes2:
I know this port will be ignored by most and that womans like me will continue to be spoken of in the stereotype way because it is the only way some ego can compete here.
Mt advice although it will be deemed worthless as I am only RW is to stick to asking basic actual physical help questions.
When you arrive here be yourself and let others be individual also.
Totally agree with this and a lot of information does not make sense at all especially in terms of relations and even when people share their so called "experience" on how to live, understand , etc. with Russian women - it is irrelevant most of the time
People are all different so are their situations , but a lot of members do not want to hear any other possible thoughts on the topics and it has started on this forum long long long time ago and nothing has changed, but I guess everybody like it like that.
There is no room for controversy here and that is what this forum lacks to my mind, no room for real debate.
Yes, this forum tries to bring people together with similar situations as i said before, but this forum only tries, unsuccessfully
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It is not a sirprise to me that there is so many problems.
To read this forum as a RW there is only maybe a few mens who do not do them self harm in any thread by what they write.
Even many of the married mens and those which were have very steroetype views of RW.
Any RW who read this forum and would be dismayed by what they are perceived as.
Any RW who was writing of some of the single mens here, if they read the forum and saw what was written would not have anything further to do with these mens if they had an sense.
Most of the writers here seem to forget this is public and can be read by RW also at any times.
Any thoughts a RW may have of marrying mens from a foreign country would be completely removed if they saw how they were spoken about here.
I read the forum for other reasons than the mens, but some womens may read it to find out about how foreign mens think of them.
It does not do your chances much good or those you claim to try and help by consistantly stating RW are schemers, untrustworthy, using a mans for this or that.
Why would a womans be interested in a mans who says one things to her and then writes on here that RW are so bad?
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You see Bored1 you've touched one of the most interesting topic here, some female members of this forum , russian women, were expressing their thoughts like you, but none of them were successfull.
You have to agree with anything they post here, otherwise get an iron costume and wait for attack ;D
And I agree , how they portray the whole thing, all those flickering images of half naked girls on the site , the whole content- How to court russian woman, "How to get her in my cage" and so on
It is almost as a pet shop site, where they promise you that they got the best advise on how to keep "Rare African Parrot" alive, how to train some very unique dog and so on
I read the forum still cos i hope to find something very informative here one day, am I a dreamer?
Though at least there are people who enjoy communicating here , maybe this is enough
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How to court russian woman, "How to get her in my cage" and so on
Jazzy, can you please point to a thread about this?
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See here you go again :)
That was
Metaphor
A metaphor is a comparison used to add descriptive meaning to a phrase. Metaphors are generally not meant literally, and may have little connotative similarity to the concepts they are meant to portray
on "How to get her in my cage"
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See here you go again :)
That was
Metaphor
A metaphor is a comparison used to add descriptive meaning to a phrase. Metaphors are generally not meant literally, and may have little connotative similarity to the concepts they are meant to portray
on "How to get her in my cage"
So it's not only some of the men here that can make exaggerated sweeping generalisations then...
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You see Bored1 you've touched one of the most interesting topic here, some female members of this forum , russian women, were expressing their thoughts like you, but none of them were successfull.
Maybe this is why there is so many problems then. AM seem to think they know Russia and RW women better than RW women do. It certainly seems that way from almost any thread you can chose to read. :D
You would think that a RW opinions on Russia or RW or even AM would have more of an impact with the posters married to RW and even more so for those who for some reason have decided that a RW is a must have accessory for a successful family life. :wallbash:
My uncle lives in Beverly Hills nine month from a year and I have been to the USA and have had many mans chasing me thinking that they are going to save me from Russia and my way of life here when they do not know Moscow or my way of life. :D
Why do they think they save me or my life is bad here or they are any better then the mens in Moscow? It is stereotype is the answer.
I will not be concerned of a attack Jazzyclassy as after all as I have said everyone knows RW and Russia better than we RW so all will carry on as before and more stereotype and bad manners to RW will continue in many post together with words about situations nobody really knows about other than those involved in them. The program of failure will continue through ego warring mens here and I shall return to reading and not post many times :D
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My uncle lives in Beverly Hills nine month from a year and I have been to the USA and have had many mans chasing me thinking that they are going to save me from Russia and my way of life here when they do not know Moscow or my way of life. :D
Why do they think they save me or my life is bad here or they are any better then the mens in Moscow? It is stereotype is the answer.
Bored1, you are aware that Western men are also stereotyped when we travel to Russia, yes? People usually don't assume we're poor and in need of saving, but there are a host of other annoying stereotypes that we've all had to deal with. It's perfectly normal even if it's annoying.
If you have something to say, please say it - I would love to hear your opinions on this and any other topics.
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My theory is follow advice where possible, but also recognize that sometimes you have to follow your heart.
I love your post roykirk.
I remember I was considered to be a scamer. No, I didn't ask for money. I had nice conversations with a nice man for few days then I got bad news from my home - my mom was diagnosed to have cancer. Being under a big shock and actually not thinking properly I said about it and he disappeared in the middle of conversation and never came back.
Then some time later I talked with another man and said things as they were, as at that time I was at my mom's place taking care of her. He didn't run away but supported me in conversations, I think he was more tolerant because he had cancer treatment himself in the past. We met later on my next trip to England and spent few nice days together.
So just remember that people are living creatures and everything can happen at any time and any moment. This is my advice 8)
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Bored1, you are aware that Western men are also stereotyped when we travel to Russia, yes?
I am aware of the stereotype of western mens also yes. I know only not many western mens in Moscow but they are all here to work and do not fit any stereotype propoganda that is communicated.
If none of those mens fit the stereotype how many RW meet the stereotype written about here?
I do not only mean the scams which posts seem to write so much about but also that we are all good cooks, all want childrens, all want to leave Russia, all think foreign mens and better than local mans and all thinks our lives would be so much better with a foreign mans.
The route to my affection may be different from that to my sister or my mother or my grandmother. My perception of life may be different to them also. What I want from life may is certainly different to that of what my grandmother wanted because time is changed and so have people.
The situations of some RW has changed much in recent times and independence and reliance on mans for some does not mean that a better life can be offered anywhere now.
That is not true of all womans but so to it is not true of the stereotype also if many womens do not fit the stereotype.
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Maybe this is why there is so many problems then. AM seem to think they know Russia and RW women better than RW women do. It certainly seems that way from almost any thread you can chose to read. :D
You would think that a RW opinions on Russia or RW or even AM would have more of an impact with the posters married to RW and even more so for those who for some reason have decided that a RW is a must have accessory for a successful family life. :wallbash:
My uncle lives in Beverly Hills nine month from a year and I have been to the USA and have had many mans chasing me thinking that they are going to save me from Russia and my way of life here when they do not know Moscow or my way of life. :D
Why do they think they save me or my life is bad here or they are any better then the mens in Moscow? It is stereotype is the answer.
I will not be concerned of a attack Jazzyclassy as after all as I have said everyone knows RW and Russia better than we RW so all will carry on as before and more stereotype and bad manners to RW will continue in many post together with words about situations nobody really knows about other than those involved in them. The program of failure will continue through ego warring mens here and I shall return to reading and not post many times :D
Again agree with this, nobody knows RW and Russia better than we do
As for me I find Russia to be the best country in the world, there are issues in Russia, but where will you find a country which has none? impossible.
I 've lived in the Uk for 1 and a half year and I can totally say that yes it is a lovely country , great nature, fresh air , "fake friendliness " around you, there is no soul to it, like there is in Russia- these are my own feelings.
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I will say that there is good advice to be taken in the physical how do I get there, what are the costs of hotels, visa issues both in Russia and America, divorce and married protocol but very little else is anything more than ego, chat and stereotype.
Almost everything written about FSU woman is stereotype general rubbish when I compare it to myself and my friends. :o :rolleyes2:
You and others of a like mind are totally missing the point.
Of course you can interpret as stereotype, but you don't have to.
When someone, man or woman writes that FSUW or FSUM or WW or WM are like such and such . . . . what it means is that is their experience with X number of persons. Of course, this cannot be generalized to everyone in that category, but it does not mean their observations are invalid.
So when someone writes all FSUW are like . . . . the reader merely should read it as that is what the FSUW that this person met are like.
However, when many, many people write that FSUW are like . . . . and they are fairly consistent; then it gives some support to the proposition that FSUW are indeed like that.
There is something behind every stereotype; elsewise the stereotype would not have gotten started.
For instance:
Do you often hear that Jewish people are good athletes and dancers?
Do you often hear that African people are good with money?
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Bored1, you are aware that Western men are also stereotyped when we travel to Russia, yes? People usually don't assume we're poor and in need of saving, but there are a host of other annoying stereotypes that we've all had to deal with. It's perfectly normal even if it's annoying.
I think you are a bit stuck in the past , that could be true some years ago, but not now. A lot of russian people now travel and they do meet poor western men, with huge eggos and they are aware of the fact that there are poor people out there ,as well as in the USA
Plus people do read forum something like this and quickly become aware of financially insecure and poor people, there are no such stereotypes anymore. A lot of people who communicated with people around the world got the idea of how they treat to money and how they save on everything.
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I think you are a bit stuck in the past , that could be true some years ago, but not now. A lot of russian people now travel and they do meet poor western men, with huge eggos and they are aware of the fact that there are poor people out there ,as well as in the USA
I have a weakness for Eggos, especially with gobs of butter and maple syrup! Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;) :D
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If none of those mens fit the stereotype how many RW meet the stereotype written about here?
That's a little bit trickier, Bored1. Unfortunately there are a percentage of Western men who DO fit these stereotypes. We have a saying: For every stereotype, there is a prototype :)
The best anyone can hope for is that the people they meet will take them as they are, but I know from my wife's experiences here that such people are not so common.
I do not only mean the scams which posts seem to write so much about but also that we are all good cooks, all want childrens, all want to leave Russia, all think foreign mens and better than local mans and all thinks our lives would be so much better with a foreign mans.
I agree with you 10000% here.
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You and others of a like mind are totally missing the point.
Of course you can interpret as stereotype, but you don't have to.
When someone, man or woman writes that FSUW or FSUM or WW or WM are like such and such . . . . what it means is that is their experience with X number of persons. Of course, this cannot be generalized to everyone in that category, but it does not mean their observations are invalid.
So when someone writes all FSUW are like . . . . the reader merely should read it as that is what the FSUW that this person met are like.
However, when many, many people write that FSUW are like . . . . and they are fairly consistent; then it gives some support to the proposition that FSUW are indeed like that.
Russian and Ukrainian people stereotype Moldovan people as stupid. It is still a commonly heard insult when someone does something stupid. I have met almost 50 through work and none are stupid but ther stereotype still continues whist my experience is 100% opposite to the stereotype.
A man from England told me that they say the same of people from Ireland and he had never meet a stupid Irish person either.
At what point does stereotype become legend or myth? Are Molodovan people to be seen as stupid in Russia and Ukraine forever because of the stereotype?
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Russian and Ukrainian people stereotype Moldovan people as stupid. It is still a commonly heard insult when someone does something stupid. I have met almost 50 through work and none are stupid but ther stereotype still continues whist my experience is 100% opposite to the stereotype.
A man from England told me that they say the same of people from Ireland and he had never meet a stupid Irish person either.
At what point does stereotype become legend or myth? Are Moldovan people to be seen as stupid in Russia and Ukraine forever because of the stereotype?
You simply have to separate stereotypes into two groups:
1) Those that are based on truth.
2) Those that follow from jokes.
It is actually very easy to put a stereotype into one category or another.
You gave the examples of Moldovan and Irish.
These exist in every country with respect to another country.
In USA, there are many Polish jokes. There are many 'redneck' jokes.
I met several people from many European countries while I was vacationing with a FSUW in Turkey.
I told these people some Polish and redneck jokes.
They readily recognized the gist of the jokes and commented;
"In my country we tell these jokes as about Belgium or French or Czech people."
On the other hand there is the 'stereotype' of the stubborness of FSUW who will never admit they are wrong!!!!!!!
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You simply have to separate stereotypes into two groups:
1) Those that are based on truth.
2) Those that follow from jokes.
All stereotypes are based on truth at some level, nothing comes from nothing. All jokes come from standing stereotypes.
If Russians drink vodka, they damn do drink vodka. Not the majority but more than rest of the world.
If Finnish people are slow, they are damn slow. Not the majority but more than people in any other country.
Stupid in not the right word, there are no stupid nations. If you say stupid, you don't understand the difference in mentality or level of education.
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All stereotypes are based on truth at some level, nothing comes from nothing. All jokes come from standing stereotypes.
If Russians drink vodka, they damn do drink vodka. Not the majority but more than rest of the world.
If Finnish people are slow, they are damn slow. Not the majority but more than people in any other country.
Stupid in not the right word, there are no stupid nations. If you say stupid, you don't understand the difference in mentality or level of education.
I think a large part of the problem is that many current stereotypes about Russian women can be traced to one of two (both fallacious) sources.
In the first case, there were many stereotypes about Russians, in general, emanating from the Cold War propaganda campaigns. I am a bit ashamed to admit it, but for a very long time while growing up, I imagined the majority of Russian women as being thick and stout and plowing potato fields with their hair covered by a scarf. Oh, and a couple of gold teeth. That may be a bit of an exaggeration - but not much.
The other fallacious source of stereotypes emanated from the agencies, who promoted (and still promote) Russian women as virginal traditional hand-maidens to their husbands who are cover-girl beautiful and cannot get enough sex - from ONLY their Western husbands of course. Again, a bit of an exaggeration, but not much.
I very much appreciate the Russian women who contribute to RWD, and we now have a great number who are balanced and intelligent and offer wonderful insights into the Russian culture and how if affects the women, and the men - and how that translates into romantic relationships with western men.
It would be interesting to see if we could compose a list of the more common stereotypes - and then debunk them with real life facts and experience.
Just a thought.
- Dan
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Maybe this is why there is so many problems then. AM seem to think they know Russia and RW women better than RW women do.
Well, I would add that RW are pretty good at generalizing themselves from time to time and some seem to think that what they believe and think is generalizable to all RW ;) What is true for one part of Russia may not be true for all the FSU and what is true for one segment of Russian society may be irrelevant to others.
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Russian and Ukrainian people stereotype Moldovan people as stupid.
And, let us not forget the poor Chukchi who are the butt of many Russian jokes. Sometimes it seems that there are more jokes about the Chukchi than there are Chukchi. The jokes are told and retold even if few Russians will have actually met a Chukchi.
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Let us also not forget that some of these stereotypes can be perpetuated by Russian women themselves. While my wife dismisses many of the stereotypes of Russian men and women as untrue, she will readily claim that rampant alcoholism and unmotivated men (career wise) were some of the things that made her want to look outside the country. As to the former, she calls it Russia's "secret shame" and says people play it down as a stereotype for the simple fact that it's so embarrassing. Take that for what it's worth.
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Well, I would add that RW are pretty good at generalizing themselves from time to time and some seem to think that what they believe and think is generalizable to all RW ;) What is true for one part of Russia may not be true for all the FSU and what is true for one segment of Russian society may be irrelevant to others.
This is the issue I am trying to raise exactly thank you Misha. What is true of me and my life here is not true of a RW from Reutov, Samara or Sochi. Life and attitudes, needs and requirements are not the same for each RW or each place.
Not 2 RW are the same in circumstance even if in location and should be treated as individuals and not classed in a certain way without evidence of such.
The only 100% accurate statement about a RW is that she is R and W :D
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In the USA Polish people are thought as stupid and ugly. Just google Polish jokes. I lived in Poland several years and found the women very attractive and intelligent. Anyone ever try Polish arm wrestling? - in 7th grade I saw a kid break his own nose with his own hand doing this. Got rushed to the hospital and later had plastic surgery.
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And, let us not forget the poor Chukchi who are the butt of many Russian jokes. Sometimes it seems that there are more jokes about the Chukchi than there are Chukchi. The jokes are told and retold even if few Russians will have actually met a Chukchi.
True. But someone who says they are stupid don't understand their culture and mentality. All jokes are about how they can't follow the technical progress or lost in Moscow. It is understable why. They probably think all other people are stupid because can't condact a simple deer :D
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If Finnish people are slow, they are damn slow. Not the majority but more than people in any other country.
I heard a group of Muscovites refer to Estonians in this way.
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All jokes are about how they can't follow the technical progress or lost in Moscow.
I have lived almost all my 23 years of life in Moscow and there are still parts which I am so unfamiliar with I can take the wrong route. :D
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I heard a group of Muscovites refer to Estonians in this way.
Yes, they are close to each other :P
We call them as "hot Estonian guys" and plenty jokes in this way.
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And back to the topic: Should men seek advice from RWD?
Yes. Absolutely. Tons of information and advice that is just necessary and if not known can totally "brake" a person. But I would also add - please pay closer attention to what RW themselves say on this board!
There is nothing wrong in seeking advice, and the more opinions you hear on this or that topic - the better. Simple common sense should be followed too.
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Thanks AnastassiaAsh for bringing this topic back. I have been on this forum for a few years and seldom post.
I want to make it completely clear to all the Women on this site that I really do appreciate what you write. I want to hear your perspectives, ideas, thoughts... everything. Please don't let a few inconsiderate people shut you down. Also thank you Bored1 and RussianWind for speaking up.
I think women's posts are need to balance out the testosterone that sometimes is jaded.
Regards,
Kenny
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I don't think the thread drifted too much. Seems the womenfolk were trying to explain why they see limited value in the advice or opinions of the forum members. RW know RW better than any WM could. WM could (perhaps do) claim likewise, that is they know self better than anyone. Is this true?
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I think I have tried to say as best as I can that because an AM has had 1 success or multiple fails or even a mix of results the AM cannot possible have the same knowledge of Russia or of RW as an RW.
For example I lived in Moscow almost 23 years. AM man can match my knowledge of Moscow? Unlikely I think.
I am a RW of almost 23 years and have schooled with many RW, know many more and have many RW family members. I have almost 23 years experience of being a RW and living amongst RW of all types.
Has any AM here been married to a RW 23 years? If so it is to 1 RW and not exposure to RW such as we RW have had.
I am saying that new people come here and ask AM who may or may not be married to RW and may or may not have been to Russia and may or may not have even lived in Russia for several years but this cannot surely out way our experience of ourself over decades and yet when we point out their experience of RW is very small compared to our own and happen to dare to disagree with them based on our own life time experience we are not given the same credibility as an AM married to a RW for 5 years or an AM who has try any failed many times.
There is no secret that what is good for 1 person is not good for another.
There is no secret that what work for 1 will not work for another.
We are all different and the way many post speak of RW is generally quite distasteful.
We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases. We are classed as wanting a green card or wanting money. Again not always true. We are classed as typically this or that when there is nothing typical about any person amongst the member RW or AM.
We are often set out in post as goods on display seeming available for purchase and to see as many as you can and then decide upon which you want to take home. If such things were said about AW by foreign people they would be attacked on this forum saying AW were not commodity to be viewed in such a way.
When this point is made and people take offence one of a few things happen. Either their English is wrong and it is pointed out really quite unecessary as English is not my native language. If you can understand me and I can understand you it is enough, or because it does not meet the advice given by large ego which have been here a long time then it is quite simply dismissed.
I do not see how ignoring a RW, even if she meet the stereotype or not, can help anyone asking for advice over a RW.
I have been member for almost 9 month and have written only a few post. The reason for this is that it does seem quite pointless to tell AM coming here that they should only really seek physical help with visa, hotel, taxi and such things.
Not 2 RW would react the same way to different AM (unless they were quite insulting) so why ask such questions.
I would understand questions such as what does a certain flower mean in Russian culture, or how many should I give and the signifant of the number given as they are beneficial to an AM to have made some effort into learning something of our culture. These things are not missed by a RW if a foreign man understands it and gets it right.
It is the fact that the foreign mans has taken time to find out such things that is appreciated. He should though treat the RW as an individual and dismiss most other advice given here about how RW are.
It should be quite plane to see even from this forum that RW are not the same and that we also disagree with each other so how can anyone serious ask an AM with even more limit experience than we expect an answer to which to work from?
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Seems the womenfolk were trying to explain why they see limited value in the advice or opinions of the forum members. RW know RW better than any WM could. WM could (perhaps do) claim likewise, that is they know self better than anyone. Is this true?
You know I find it very useful for myself to read posts of WM, to look at our country and culture through their eyes and it helps to understand you better. Mutual understanding, isn't it what we all are looking for?
You know I/O, since I joined that forum few years ago, my perception of life and people abroad very much changed through my own experience and reading your board opinions. I think if I read my posts few years back, I will find them naive at some point. :D
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RW know RW better than any WM could. WM could (perhaps do) claim likewise, that is they know self better than anyone. Is this true?
No, because as some of the ladies pointed out above, there is no such thing as an RW. Everyone is individual. I can tell you what growing up and living in California was like for me. Someone living just down the block might have very different opinions and experiences, or they might have the same experiences but view them in a completely different light. And if you want to know what a foreigner experiences when coming to California for the first time, I'm probably not the person to ask.
It all depends on what type of information you seek. If I want to know about what it was like growing up in Russia, I ask a Russian. If I want to know what it might be like to date a Russian woman through a bridal agency, I ask someone who has done so.
Consider the original question:
Is it a good idea for men in international relationships to seek advice on relationships from the members of RWD?
Take out 'international'. When you seek relationship advice, what is more valuable, the advice of women or men? For me, it all depends on the individual, their situations, their experiences and how similar they are to mine.
My direct relationship experience with Western Men is… zero. I can only accurately say what it's like to be in a relationship with me.
Regarding stereotypes: I really don't see it on these boards. Newbies usually come perpetrating the agency stereotypes, and regular members shoot them down. Some negative stereotyping does occur with things such as 'Russian women are stubborn, tough, argumentative, they never say thanks, they never say sorry', but that all goes against what agencies have to say.
Should men seek relationship advice here? Good advice can be given even by someone who never follows it himself. So I say sure, just always consider the source.
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We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases. We are classed as wanting a green card or wanting money. Again not always true.
Do you see these sterotypes here, on this board, by the regular members?
We are often set out in post as goods on display seeming available for purchase and to see as many as you can and then decide upon which you want to take home.
Also, do you get this from reading this board? Can you point out or give examples of things said here that make you feel this way?
It should be quite plain to see even from this forum that RW are not the same
I agree, and that's why there is value in asking questions, however stupid, and sharing experiences, however individual. Without forums like this, there is only agency hype for men to go on.
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For example I lived in Moscow almost 23 years. AM man can match my knowledge of Moscow? Unlikely I think.
Yes, your expertise about Moscow would be of course very good. But, from what I gather from the personal info provided, you are not married and have not immigrated to another country as you have indicated "Status: Looking 0-2 years." So, your knowledge about the experiences of culture shock and what some women go through during the immigration and integration process would be quite limited if the status you have indicated is correct.
Likewise, I can wager that there I have been to some locations in Russia that you have never heard of and could not even find on a map ;)
People share what they know and have experienced in forums. Sometimes they are useful simply as a means of release: when my wife was going through culture shock, I certainly wasn't going to go talk about this to my friends and family.
Has any AM here been married to a RW 23 years? If so it is to 1 RW and not exposure to RW such as we RW have had.
True, but if you are "looking" how much experience have you had in an intercultural marriage? It is one thing to have witnessed countless marriages of RM married to RW over 23 years, it is quite another to be married to someone from another country and culture and dealing with the difficulties that arise on a daily basis.
We are all different and the way many post speak of RW is generally quite distasteful.
I agree with you here.
We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases. We are classed as wanting a green card or wanting money.
RW are not necessarily any better when it comes to this. Quite often RW are the most insistent that a RW is only interested in how much money a man earns and not other factors.
I do not see how ignoring a RW, even if she meet the stereotype or not, can help anyone asking for advice over a RW.
I am curious, are you referring to something specific that was posted recently or some incident whereby a RW was ignored and her advice rejected?
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Do you see these sterotypes here, on this board, by the regular members?
Quite honestly in certain threads there is often such stereotype comments by members new and old whether said in joke or not they are there to be seen and not often clearly idenified as a joke. So yes as a single RW I find many post rude or insensitve. I never feel the need to make such comment either seriously or in joke and find it better to say nothing than be involved in the ego wars which always seem to start after such a post.
Also, do you get this from reading this board? Can you point out or give examples of things said here that make you feel this way?
Most come as a result of agency dating thread. Posts such as have some back ups for seeing when you are there. A man serious about finding a RW would join a Russian chat room or meeting site which has nothing to do with agency. Our Facebook equivilants would be the best starting point and of course it is quite free. There is more than time to speak with a woman on site such as vkontake and to get to know her well enough to only visit her when the time feel right. Agency is a cattle market with pretty pictures on many occasion where nobody knows if they speak with man or woman in Russia.
It may be my understanding of English which is bad but words like have a plan, have a agenda, have a list of questions makes things sound like job interview and if I felt as though I was being interview for job as a wife I would have no interest in that man.
It sound quite cold and callous and make it feel as though if we are lucky to be offered such job we would happy to take it. No thought seems given we may not like you and that you can simply go through your recruitment process and expect the one you chose to come home with you.
This forum is open to public to view if not join. How many RW may read this site and see what is written about them and feel angry or embarassed by it?
It often seem the thread read like the woman must make an effort to prove she is not scam or after money or wanting green card through marriage.
I agree, and that's why there is value in asking questions, however stupid, and sharing experiences, however individual. Without forums like this, there is only agency hype for men to go on.
This is quite true but to often these thing are not written to say they are individual experience but is generally true of RW. Without the qualify that it is a personal experience relating to RW it can and has seemed to be taken as true for all RW.
I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar.
I do not pretend to know anything much of America or American people having only visited. I do not pretend to know much of AM having only briefly spent time with a few. I therefore I do enter discussion or pretend I know much on such topics as my limit experience is of now value compaired to many AM posts.
It is because of this I do not understand why RW are not listened to for we surely have much more experience of RW and Russia and are surely at least equally aware of what it is like to be a RW and live here.
The forum at least for me and I speak only for me is quite hostile for a RW and it is why I post so little even if I read it much.
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Bored: I (for the first time I have had time to do so) read this thread this evening (my time about 6 hrs ahead of Moscow time) and to be frank, I found it quite disturbing.
I actually don't agree with a number of points you have put forward, but that isn't important. What concerns me most of all is your assessment of the way men are thinking here. There are a number of us who have been at pains for years to dispel stupid myths regarding RW, want to leave Russia, bad life, baby machines etc. If what you say is correct and the WM here on this site are as you say, it saddens me no end because I can only say, we have failed miserably in our quest to present some truth.
Russian Wind (if her memory is as good as I think it is) can attest to my first ever post on any forum on this subject several years ago being a brutal and extensive beating up of a fellow countryman which went on for endless pages because he was so clueless and arrogant regarding what RW were and how they would be unable to compete with WW because they didn't know what they were up against and so forth. I was never much of a forum writer prior to that and certainly not on this subject. At the time of his ridiculous post, it was just too much. I felt someone had to point out the error of these guys way. BTW, that fool I beat up so badly had never and I believe to this day, has never been to or near Russia.
I find your comments intersting in contrast because I have always sought external opinion on my way of doing things, my country and so forth because I feel to look to ones own to make those assessments removes some objectivity. You see it another way, perhaps this is a demonstration of cultural difference? Sadly, if your assessment of men here is accurate and is representative of how RW would view it, this and other forums have pretty much been a waste of space.
You know I/O, since I joined that forum few years ago, my perception of life and people abroad very much changed through my own experience and reading your board opinions.
I hope in a positive sense?
I think if I read my posts few years back, I will find them naive at some point.
And..............you will probably say the same of your current postings in a few years time, that is just the cycle of life. "Growing" older as opposed to aging. Just wait till you get to my age..................... :o :o BTW, I hear what you are actually saying. ;)
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I agree with what the RW are saying here. RW are IMO very well qualified and I personally value their opinion. Stereo typing is not wise, unfortunately things like the marriage agencies contribute immensly to stereo typing. As far as should men seek advice here. I think there is alot of imformation both here and generally on the internet and it is never a bad idea to try to become informed or enlightened. It is allways an individual choice though of which information should be considered as good or valid. It is ALLWAYS the way it happens anyway, some people make bad decissions based on bad advice and then tend to blame the advisor!! :P
When I need advice I allways ask my wife!! She is the smartest person I know and I trust her completely!! OK enough!!
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Yes, your expertise about Moscow would be of course very good. But, from what I gather from the personal info provided, you are not married and have not immigrated to another country as you have indicated "Status: Looking 0-2 years." So, your knowledge about the experiences of culture shock and what some women go through during the immigration and integration process would be quite limited if the status you have indicated is correct.
Likewise, I can wager that there I have been to some locations in Russia that you have never heard of and could not even find on a map ;)
I do not claim and never have claimed to know everything about Russia but I do feel that living here for 23 years rather than visit for a month or 2 means I will know at least an equal amount about Russia or do you not agree?
True, but if you are "looking" how much experience have you had in an intercultural marriage? It is one thing to have witnessed countless marriages of RM married to RW over 23 years, it is quite another to be married to someone from another country and culture and dealing with the difficulties that arise on a daily basis.
I am not looking but I am not married either. When I joined I did not see a possibilty which said anuthing neutral but being single I cannot say I was married. I have no specific intention of marrying a foreign man but it maybe that I will. I read the forum as I have family in the USA.
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I am curious, are you referring to something specific that was posted recently or some incident whereby a RW was ignored and her advice rejected?
I say this as for me personally I find the board quite hostile and full of ego and member who want to pick on someone whenever they have the chance. This fight will then continue into other thread and also the original thread will drag on and on with no real purpose to it.
It is quite hostile in this regard and I would not enter such a thread even if I had something worthy of saying as I would not want to be the next target for such egos.
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After reading my post I thought I should explaine.....whenI said "OK enough" it is a form of self censorship and not directed at anyone else
One more thought I would like to share though. I don't find fault in anyone trying to make a better life, including wanting to move to another country. It is a good thing generally and indicates a certain intelligence IMO. When I was a boy we lived in the mid-west and my father was offered a much better job in California, so he moved us lock, stock and barrel. Californina was a whole different culture, climate etc. than the midwest. OK well that's my point how can someone look poorly on another for the desire to make an improvement?
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I do not claim and never have claimed to know everything about Russia but I do feel that living here for 23 years rather than visit for a month or 2 means I will know at least an equal amount about Russia or do you not agree?
I am not disagreeing and agree that you would be quite knowledgeable about life in Russia. But, I will point out that Russian women have their biases as well. I would not believe at face value, for example, what a woman from Moscow has to say about life outside of Moscow, much less life in Siberia, the Russian North or God forbid a Russian "village" ;) And I have seen RW more than happy to share their stereotypes about Ukrainian women on other forums :-X
I say this as for me personally I find the board quite hostile and full of ego and member who want to pick on someone whenever they have the chance. This fight will then continue into other thread and also the original thread will drag on and on with no real purpose to it.
It is the nature of the beast IMHO. Are there any forums where there are no egos and no hostility?
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It is the nature of the beast IMHO. Are there any forums where there are no egos and no hostility?
Indeed you are probably right. But it does not encourage anyone expecially a RW like me with limited English to offer genuine and well nature help in the middle of it to just become a next target and yet nobody seems to care and what maybe helpfull advice is not given because of it.
I have many occasion written a post to help someone and then not put it on the forum because the tread has been dominated by fighting and not want to become a traget.
It is of no loss to me it was not post of course.
As I have said it is only my view that the forum is hostile and RW are not spoken of with sufficient respect when it is general statements. I agree that many such post are relating to agency womans if they are really womans writing to the mans but it is the womans written about and not the agency in many times.
I would not comment upon individual circumstance unless I know the perosn involved or it was a administrative issue in Russia I could find out about.
That is just me though and we are all as I have said many times in this thread different.
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As I have said it is only my view that the forum is hostile and RW are not spoken of with sufficient respect when it is general statements.
I agree with you, and I am sometimes amazed to see men who have never met any RW or at best a few RW at best claim speaking with such expertise about all RW :rolleyes2: I do find that very odd.
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Wow my post just disappeared Why? I guess somebody didn't like my opinion.
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Wow my post just disappeared Why?
Oops. Hit the wrong button. Meant to hit "Quote" and managed to hit "Remove."
- Dan
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Hey Dan maybe that's why Olga and I can't PM. Off for coffee
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Bored,
Hang in here. In my opinion, RW collectively offer superb insights. The key word is collectively.
You are young and I would think you would give very useful information on culture, universities, night life, etc. However, what could you tell me about marrying a RW with a child and the adjustment they would go through upon arriving in America? Only married AM and RW with children could really explain the issues.
The value of a discussion forum is to start with a question and discuss it at length from various perspectives.
No vote is taken to determine the correct answer.
No prize is given for the most intelligent answer.
It boils down to this: The person asking the question decides what is the best answer for his/her situation.
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There is no secret that what work for 1 will not work for another…..We are all different....
Absolutely true.
We are cast as desperate to leave Russia - not true in many cases.
Some RW are indeed desperate, yet the general advice is for men to avoid them and instead focus on RW with choices.
We are often set out in post as goods on display seeming available for purchase and to see as many as you can and then decide upon which you want to take home.
Often? Sometimes, yes. Stupid men get this thought after reading myths portrayed by marriage agencies marketing their services. Men who select a RW wife the same as buying a chenuk (puppy dog) will quickly learn that he can not put a collar and leash on her.
I would not comment upon individual circumstance unless I know the perosn involved or it was a administrative issue in Russia I could find out about.
I think you are wrong to stay silent. No one knows the individual circumstance, so all of us must speculate. I rather hear an educated guess than a WAG (wild ass guess). The more people who join a discussion, the better the discussion ultimately.
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I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar.
I agree. :(
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Quote from: Bored1 on Today at 13:21:06
I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar.
I agree. :(
It all boils down to language/communication IMHO.
Those that have lived with a FSUW for an extended period of time seem to best understand the actual intent of a woman's post, regardless of how and which words are used. The casual reader may comprehend something totally different. I've seen it happen time and time again.
Apply a good bit 'benefit of doubt', think more intent than literal.
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As I have said it is only my view that the forum is hostile and RW are not spoken of with sufficient respect when it is general statements.
Allow me to disagree. RWD, in my opinion, is one of the most respectful forums I've seen, whether to RW posters or speaking of RW in general. Most instances of open hostility I've observed here were caused by a Russian poster making a generalized statement with an air of "I know it better than any of you because I am Russian"; other members debunking the generalization; and the original poster taking personal offense, accusing everyone of hostility, and storming out. A typical scenario.
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You are young and I would think you would give very useful information on culture, universities, night life, etc. However, what could you tell me about marrying a RW with a child and the adjustment they would go through upon arriving in America? Only married AM and RW with children could really explain the issues.
I know nothing of these things which is why I do not post in such thread. I post only in a thread where I have something I feel valid is worthy of saying. I do not think you will find a post from me in a thread about moving to America or adjustments with children or any issuse after marriage. You will also find no post from me in divorce or visa issues again because my knowledge is lacking.
I do have 100% experience of being a RW and I do know what it is like to have WM want to be with me also. I have spent time with a few in a social atmosphere. ;D I think that may qualify me to at least speak of dating a RW should I feel inclined so but not marriage so this is what I stick with.
I also have experience of Moscow.
I would not post in such a thread as Moscow Nightlife for example as some of the people who have post I would not wish to meet in the places I go. That is my decision of course.
I see no point in idle speculation as it only seems to start conflict over something which will not be resolved and to what purpose is idle specutlation?. I therefore think I am right to stay silent and think that for the forum to have less fights many others should stay silent and not speculate either.
Again this is my opinion but the consistant fighting, egotism and expanding arguements across so many threads does make it very hostile.
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I have spent time with a few in a social atmosphere. ;D I think that may qualify me to at least speak of dating a RW should I feel inclined so but not marriage so this is what I stick with.
And please do share because dating is very important.
I also have experience of Moscow.
Wonderful city. My wife was born and raised in Moscow as were her family as far back as she knows. She misses Moscow yet does not want to return other than visit every year or so.
I would not post in such a thread as Moscow Nightlife for example as some of the people who have post I would not wish to meet in the places I go.
:ROFL: You are smart not to tell us of the best places.
I see no point in idle speculation as it only seems to start conflict over something which will not be resolved and to what purpose is idle specutlation?. I therefore think I am right to stay silent and think that for the forum to have less fights many others should stay silent and not speculate either.
If none of us speculated, this forum would be boring. Given you name that would be bad. Yes? Would you read this forum if it only addressed how to exit SVO airport, how many and what color roses to give a RW, how to get tickets to the Bolshoi, etc.
Again this is my opinion but the consistant fighting, egotism and expanding arguements across so many threads does make it very hostile.
I agree that we have too much bickering. Did you follow the Dukemaxwell episode? If yes, what was your impression? If no, what particular threads made you stop reading and surf to something else on the Internet?
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Quote from: Bored1 on Today at 07:21:06 AM
I speak only for me, but the reason I post little is I find the forum full of big ego of people who know very little about RW in reality or Russia and when RW says something which is not on the same line they are dismissed or ignored as knowing little of what the speak of or they are picked on for bad English or other minor English language mistakes in grammar
I agree. :(
Thanks for posting Brave Girl.
Can you imagine a marriage in which a husband does not listen to his RW wife? And if she insists on explaining what's on her mind, the husband criticizes her English?
Men who behave this way will need to change before they marry. Maybe that is why they are interested in RW because no AW will tolerate such crap. Please be brave and tell these men that they are full of kaka.
I assert that such a man will not be able to win the heart of a RW with choices, so he will end up with a desperate RW and will probably live in turmoil until the divorce is finalized. :(
I do appreciate all opinions here. However, as I stated early in this thread:
As far as understanding how to live with RW, I need to understand only one, and I can depend on her to tell me when and how I am wrong. ;D
Okay, Brave Girl, I hope to see you post in other threads. Please believe me that most men welcome RW participation. However, some of us can be too gruff when we disagree. Please remind us to behave as gentlemen when you feel insulted. Men do need feedback and so do women.
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Yes I read all threads until it become personal insult between 1 member and another. After this point I stop read the thread as it becomes a war of individual or group and the point of the thread is forgetten.
Yes I have now read that thread you mention from start to end.
If you wish to know my thought then I will say that even after the member is barred then many still continue to discuss both he and his thought process. To what purpose? The moderator or administration bar the individual but the most offensive quotes such as they bad smell below are still in display and at no time have ever been moderated reworded or changed and remain as rude as they were before he was barred.
Could this small bit of text not have been moderated even if leaving the rest of the post and context unchanged.
His reason for being how he was is unknown to me. He would certainly not have got with me if we had met in Moscow but that can be said of 80% of the mans on this forum. I may not wish to find a husband but I do enjoy to socialise some times. ;D
It is a thread which I had little interest in from the first post if I am honest and when I next read it he is barred and the thread is dragging on over old news but with the same hostility as if the man was still putting on post. I see no rational to this when there are other post with better content and of real interest or people asking for serious advice over visa problem.
I cannot assist with visa problem but they are interesting as to the result and how it is achieved.
It is up to a member what they write here but the few personal message I have passed to a man here have been through the my message system when I was asked some questions by him.
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I know nothing of these things which is why I do not post in such thread. I post only in a thread where I have something I feel valid is worthy of saying. I do not think you will find a post from me in a thread about moving to America or adjustments with children or any issuse after marriage. You will also find no post from me in divorce or visa issues again because my knowledge is lacking.
I do have 100% experience of being a RW and I do know what it is like to have WM want to be with me also. I have spent time with a few in a social atmosphere. ;D I think that may qualify me to at least speak of dating a RW should I feel inclined so but not marriage so this is what I stick with.
I also have experience of Moscow.
I would not post in such a thread as Moscow Nightlife for example as some of the people who have post I would not wish to meet in the places I go. That is my decision of course.
I see no point in idle speculation as it only seems to start conflict over something which will not be resolved and to what purpose is idle specutlation?. I therefore think I am right to stay silent and think that for the forum to have less fights many others should stay silent and not speculate either.
Again this is my opinion but the consistant fighting, egotism and expanding arguements across so many threads does make it very hostile.
Everyone on these forums whether married, looking, single, young old or whatever can offer a different perspective and opinion. This is what makes the forums so beneficial to not just WM seeking a RW but basically anyone. It is not important that you agree with anyone. What is important that when you state a position it is because you have given it some degree of thought and can defend that position with some degree of passion and logic.
When you state an opinion or even a fact for that matter on an open forum such as RWD, someone likely will not agree with it and attempt to poke holes in your statement. This is not a bad thing and 9 times of 10 it is not personal. The benefit of this is that it forces the poster, the respondent and anyone reading to think and reason. This is a good thing and helps most in this pursuit whether it be WM or RW to better understand the nuances of these type relationships. Of course everyone isn't capable of thought and reason beyond the nose on their face. It's good when you can't recognize those early and the earlier the better ;D
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His reason for being how he was is unknown to me. He would certainly not have got with me if we had met in Moscow but that can be said of 80% of the mans on this forum.
:D :D :D :D
That is a compliment in contrast to my wife who thinks 90% of foreign men are "idiots." My wife is "sweet," so I can assume that you are a really "sweet" person in real life to be so tolerant of us men.
It is a thread which I had little interest in from the first post if I am honest and when I next read it he is barred and the thread is dragging on over old news but with the same hostility as if the man was still putting on post. I see no rational to this when there are other post with better content and of real interest....
Most people probably felt the same as you. I too am bewildered by the amount of deliberation it received. Yet, I was in there participating.
It is up to a member what they write here but the few personal message I have passed to a man here have been through the my message system when I was asked some questions by him.
You are very polite to answer your PMs. Some of my first impressions of RW were that many RW were impolite. I corresponded with many RW in 2002, and a few simply vaporized after exchanging 3-4 emails. Not a word. Poof! I know they were busy, as was I, yet it does not take much time to write "I am no longer interested."
You mentioned that you are not interested in marrying a foreign man but read the forum because you have family in America. How is your family doing in America?
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I have an uncle and aunt who live in Beverley Hills nine month from the year and live here in Moscow the rest of the time. Their son stays in the Beverley Hills always.
He does work with computer programs but my uncle and aunt do not work in America. All their business interests are here in Moscow. It is for them I work and try to run things as good as I can for them on a financial level :D
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It is up to a member what they write here but the few personal message I have passed to a man here have been through the my message system when I was asked some questions by him.
Bored1,
I also communicated with several members through PMs (till it has been blocked) who shared with me their privet information and asked questions, and I continue to communicate through e-mails and phones we exchanged. They just feel uncomfortable to share their situation and ask for some advice on the open forum as there is possibility to receive the personal insults, including personal insults towards a wife for some of her thoughts.
Of course everyone isn't capable of thought and reason beyond the nose on their face.
and usually they are very quick to post their "advice" or opinions" with personal insults as "idiot", "stupid", "handicapped wife" and etc... Oh, and I also was labeled and received different "epithets" because of my thoughts :)
But as Jooky has noticed the selectivity towards members
One poster was warned in personal messages and banned for being insulting (understandable), others hurled the same type of insults and provocations and nothing was said to them.
Should men seek advice from RWD? Members can find here useful information and advice. But question also is can they receive an advice or opinion without personal insults...
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Bored1,
I have just finished reading this thread and must share that I have enjoyed your perspective on things. Not that I necessarily agree with your point of view on some issues. You do need to stop apologizing for your English skills however because you are very understandable.
RWD is a melting pot of opinions. Some are good, some are bad and some are just "off the wall." Of course it is still someones opinion of which are which. Personally, I see no gender lines drawn as to who's opinion falls into which category. RWD is truly blessed with some very level headed and wise ladies. Much great information could be gleemed from the likes of Boethius, Blues Fairy, Anastassia, Olga H. and Lilly. (I am sure I left many more out, so forgive me please.) From what I have read in this thread, you surly could be considered as a wealth of insight from a young Russian woman's perspective.
With the great amount of respect I personally have for the women I mentioned, I will dare to point out that none of them is a "shrinking violet." (Meaning that they can give as good as they get in any debate with a man or another woman here.) These are all strong and spirited women that can handle a debate on any level it may take, harsh or otherwise.
I recently had a small debate with Doll here at RWD. I like Doll, a lot, but I failed to put her in the category of the others as she is usually here seeking answers to questions she has regarding a new marriage and assimilating to life in America. (Which BTW, is a GREAT use of the resources here at RWD IMO.) Any way, in our debate, she became backed into a corner with no real answer except to "use" her "because I am a woman" card. Maybe it is a cultural thing, or an upbringing thing but IIRC, I told her that you cannot come here and debate an issue toe to toe only to eventually "hide behind your skirt." To her great credit, she understood my meaning and accepted it well.
I disagree that RW's opinions are not treated respectfully here in as much as they deserve to be respected. After all, not all opinions are well thought out or presented in a logical manner from women or men. Gender really has nothing to do with the validity of the opinion.
One other small point I would like to make with you here is that even though your basic knowledge of information regarding Moscow will always be greater than a visitor, it is from a visitors perspective that we also find valuable. ;)
KenC
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Most come as a result of agency dating thread. Posts such as have some back ups for seeing when you are there. A man serious about finding a RW would join a Russian chat room or meeting site which has nothing to do with agency. Agency is a cattle market with pretty pictures on many occasion where nobody knows if they speak with man or woman in Russia.
It may be my understanding of English which is bad but words like have a plan, have a agenda, have a list of questions makes things sound like job interview and if I felt as though I was being interview for job as a wife I would have no interest in that man.
I agree, and also advise men to use Russian dating and contact sites instead of agencies.
But, realistically, most men coming to this site are going to use bridal sites, agencies and tours. That’s just the way it is, and it makes sense for them to get advice from others who have gone through the same ‘process’.
I also dislike the interview like ‘process’, but from what I’ve seen it comes from both sides. Of the women I met through bridal sites, many treated a first meeting or few phone conversations as an interview and also perpetuated the typical agency stereotypes about Russian women and men.
So, while you are bothered by the stereotyping, it comes not just from men and from the agencies they use, but from the women they meet as well.
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Bored1-
Don't mind me joining the thread since we're on a good subject of viewing things from a Russian woman's point of view...I would like to ask you these questions.
1. How do you view a man, or those who promote and advocate it, when they talk about bringing along names and phone numbers of other women, generally referred to as back-ups, in case things didn't work out on that man's trip to his woman whom he professed life and love with? Do you see the logic in this thereby making it understandable for you as a Russian woman? For the benefit of the men reading this, or is it disrespectful to women to do so?
2. Being you've been to USA and have had a few experiences being around AM in real life, what if the roles were reversed and this site is actually for Russian women dating American men and questions & answers are being exchanged regarding relationships with American men and life in America. Would you be compelled to give your opinions, good or bad, based on your experiences? If so, to what extent? Would you advise these women, prior to their trip to USA to meet and visit their American inamorata, to bring along names and phone numbers in case they didn't like the man (vis-a-vis) after meeting them in person?
Lastly, in both scenarios, let's just hypothesize if you are the main woman (or the back-up), what is your view in this?
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Some of my first impressions of RW were that many RW were impolite. I corresponded with many RW in 2002, and a few simply vaporized after exchanging 3-4 emails. Not a word. Poof! I know they were busy, as was I, yet it does not take much time to write "I am no longer interested."
Why do you think men do different?
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Actively looking for a wife is an unnatural process or shortcut if you will, or simply looking for trouble.
There are some lucky folks out there that somehow manage to form a long term relationship under these circumstances.
Such is quite random.. and chances probably equal to walking up to a woman on the street and asking her to marry you.
Even that has happened and succeeded.
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So, while you are bothered by the stereotyping, it comes not just from men and from the agencies they use, but from the women they meet as well.
And the women are told what to say and expect. I have posted this before, but might as well share it again, Elena's (of Elena's Models) how to guide for RW seeking a foreign husband: http://www.zamuzh.com/index.html.
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And the women are told what to say and expect. I have posted this before, but might as well share it again, Elena's (of Elena's Models) how to guide for RW seeking a foreign husband: http://www.zamuzh.com/index.html.
Such guidelines have softened the stark cultural differences. In a way I preferred the style of smiling only when there is a reason to smile, not saying 'please,' not saying 'thank you' unless it was a surprise and special, suggesting good restaurants, eating like a horse, drinking like a fish, flowing over with pride even with holes in their shoes, jumping into bed because it seemed right and not because it was third date, etc.
A few years later I knew more and so did the women. The lines had blurred albeit still there.
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Why do you think men do different?
I don't know because I did not write sweet letters to men. I like women! :D
So men can be just as rude?! A couple of RW told me that they sent a "no interest" letter only to have the man assail them in an ugly letter. Ugly letters should be ignored.
In 2002 I sent introductory letters to many RW. The letters went by snail mail. Some women did not reply by email (it was 2002) and instead wrote me a letter in longhand and sent it via snail mail. That really impressed me, knowing that these women were busy yet took the time to write sweet words, probably slaving away with a Russian-English dictionary. I wondered about buying a stamp from a $30/month salary, taking the time to walk to a bureaucratic post office, etc.
A few years later everything was by email and everything seemed more mechanical. Or perhaps I had become jaded.
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Such guidelines have softened the stark cultural differences.
With younger generations, I think the cultural differences are disappearing quickly, and it's not guidelines from marriage agencies that are to blame.
In a way I preferred the style of smiling only when there is a reason to smile, not saying 'please,' not saying 'thank you' unless it was a surprise and special, suggesting good restaurants, eating like a horse, drinking like a fish, flowing over with pride even with holes in their shoes, jumping into bed because it seemed right and not because it was third date, etc.
This is all interesting to me, as most of this doesn't sound at all like the typical young Russian women I meet here.
Smiling: not much different than in the US. Please and Thank You: the same. Cashiers, waitresses and clerks use these words as a matter of habit. It's either You're Welcome (pozhaluista) or Thank You Too (spasibo vam). Eating like a horse, drinking like a fish: not so much with the slim young Russian girls, but that all depends. Flowing with pride with holes in their shoes: It's more likely to see a girl wear the same fashionable outfit 5 days in a row before she wore something that made her look like a 'bum'. Jumping into bed only when the time is right: Ok, I agree. I never agreed with the 3 date rule.
What I do notice is that using bridal sites, many women introduce themselves with usual talk of the traditional cozy home and tasty meal. Not so with women I meet through other avenues, even the ones that actually do keep a cozy home and cook tasty meals. ;)
That's some of my observations...
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And the women are told what to say and expect. I have posted this before, but might as well share it again, Elena's (of Elena's Models) how to guide for RW seeking a foreign husband: http://www.zamuzh.com/index.html.
Misha, you made my day :D
I love the "advice" for women from the book below:
Strategics of success.
Use your e-mail:
- you will look educated and modern
- 100% of well provided and educated men in America have a computer at home (in Europe and Australia 99,9% of men) - you will be in correspondence with the best candidates.
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A few years later everything was by email and everything seemed more mechanical. Or perhaps I had become jaded.
One snail mail is worth a thousand emails.
Don't worry, good things never die.. It will become a 'fad' again someday.
Want to really impress her? Lick a stamp.
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So men can be just as rude?! A couple of RW told me that they sent a "no interest" letter only to have the man assail them in an ugly letter. Ugly letters should be ignored.
My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Please compose collectively a polite answer, I will send it to him.
In 2002 I sent introductory letters to many RW. The letters went by snail mail. Some women did not reply by email (it was 2002) and instead wrote me a letter in longhand and sent it via snail mail.
Sounds romantically :) I had internet in 1998 but snail mail was something special. Does anybody write papper letters today?
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My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Please compose collectively a polite answer, I will send it to him.
'Well thank you for your compliment! I only chat with 12 inches or more. Do you have a webcam?'
That should do it.
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BC,
:ROFL:
RussianWind did ask for a polite answer.
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Want to really impress her? Lick a stamp.
My wife said exactly that. She opened her mail box and there was this thick letter (photos included). It was something she could hold in her hands and read again and again while relaxed, drinking a cup of tea and munching on a chocolate.
All of her other correspondence came via email at the office. She had to read them quickly and usually hit the "delete" button.
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Most instances of open hostility I've observed here were caused by a Russian poster making a generalized statement with an air of "I know it better than any of you because I am Russian"; other members debunking the generalization; and the original poster taking personal offense, accusing everyone of hostility, and storming out. A typical scenario.
Example/s?
A couple of RW told me that they sent a "no interest" letter only to have the man assail them in an ugly letter.
That can cut both ways. Hell hath no fury as the woman scorned and I certainly had paper (email if you like) supporting evidence. :o
My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Suggest he visits RWD for a little "advice" before you are prepared to proceed. ;D (Sorry, just couldn't resist that one). Another answer might be, "I know I'm hot and no I'm not interested in chatting", unless of course you are....................... :-\ However, seriously, you can cover all bases and maybe, just maybe give him a clue or two by simply saying "thanks but no thanks".
snail mail was something special. Does anybody write papper letters today?
Absolutely..!!! Mrs I/O and I certainly exchanged a couple of snail mail letters and I agree, they are very special and no amount of technology will EVER replace that.
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This is all interesting to me, as most of this doesn't sound at all like the typical young Russian women I meet here.
Same situation? The no smiling, no 'please' days were in 2002. Young? The youngest was 27 and the oldest 43. She would be 50 today!
You say waitresses smiled and said thank you in 2002? I only saw this at McDonalds and that came only after the manager, trained at Hamburger University, screamed "Why isn't everyone smiling for the customers?" Every waitress resembled the waitress questioning the order for potatoes without meat in Everything Illuminated. That movie was largely how I recall my first trip.
For this first trip I did not know Jack $hit about RW, had not read any RW forum, and traveled on my own for 30 days without interpreter and without contacting a single agency (I used the agencies such as Angelica only to purchase home addresses; never used the agency afterwards).
Even though I had worked for the UN in the past and had traveled well beyond the line of demarcation for toilet paper, I was in a bit of culture shock in the FSU. So every cultural difference was magnified.
In Ukraine I dated only women from the provinces. As you said, one UW wore the same outfit for 5 days. She had two pairs of knickers. And she ate meat without a knife, letting the whole piece dangle from a fork while chewing from the bottom. :hairraising: And she was a physician.
I tried but our differences were too stark. I bought her a pair of Italian shoes just before departing. It made her so happy. I could feel her sincere gratitude.
Another UW got drunk with me on vodka and some odd Georgian concoction while roaming atop the mountain high above Yalta. We were having so much fun that a Ukrainian family joined us, and the man's rather plump wife sat on my knee for a photo (see below). I could barely walk after that. This UW was always bringing me beer (trained well by UM?) and was skinny like a stick (second photo).
After a couple weeks of peasant life, I was so relieved to make it to Moscow and there I met my cultivated wife. It was comparable to having camped out in a tent for two weeks and returning home to a hot shower and clean sheets. One problem: what few smiles I noticed in Ukraine disappeared altogether except those on my future wife when she was not interviewing me. :D
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'Well thank you for your compliment! I only chat with 12 inches or more. Do you have a webcam?'
Bravo BC :ROFL:
Will you be my adviser? :P
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Bravo BC :ROFL:
Will you be my adviser? :P
Bez problem RW.. Have a soon to be 16 year old daughter so get plenty of practice.
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My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Please compose collectively a polite answer, I will send it to him.
"Try again, but this time pretend you are intelligent, unless that is too much of a reach."
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You say waitresses smiled and said thank you in 2002?
No, I'm talking about right now, 2009. I definitely got a different impression my first trip here back in 2001.
Back in 2001 I met with a girl who cracked a smile maybe once in three weeks. Smile for photos? No way! It's not Russian! Only fools smile in photos! Move forward to a few weeks ago in a Moscow shopping mall. Customers are lining up for photos taken for some kind of promotion. Photo after photo and everyone is flashing smiles. I'm chided for not smiling enough!
Not that everyone is friendly. The girls at the corner store here don't smile much, but they do say 'thank you' or 'you're welcome'. The clerks at the local 7-11 back home don't smile much either.
But, times are changing, and spending time with young people here I don't see much of a difference comparing them with young people back home.
PS: The girl from 2001 sends me updates with photos now and then. She's learned to smile too. :D
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"Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
It's funny, but if that's on a normal dating site, I bet it often gets a conversation started. I know that a lot of guys approach women with a lot worse than that! :hairraising:
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My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Please compose collectively a polite answer, I will send it to him.
Do you like this dude's profile?
I remember sending a website-generated "icebreaker" saying something like "Hi, you're sexy!" to my now-husband more than 6 years ago. His response was: "Thanks, you're very kind. However, I think you out-rank me in terms of being sexy. The proverbial face that launched a thousand ships. Also, your writing is absolutely exquisite. Are you a poet/musician? In what field is your Master's degree?"
Needless to say, I was hooked. :)
But if you don't like his profile, then use BC's answer. :)
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The girls at the corner store here don't smile much, but they do say 'thank you' or 'you're welcome'. The clerks at the local 7-11 back home don't smile much either.
LOL. Sorry, I can't resist but maybe things are different in cities high up on the altitudes but in my sea-level city of Los Angeles, the 7-11s are staffed with Indians or Middle-eastern men anyway so it won't make any difference if they were smiling my way. :P
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Ha ha! True! But, I don't think you'd care if the girls at this corner store smile or not either. They're not exactly Anastasia Web front page girls. Some are hard at work to dispel the myth that young Russian women are all slim. ;D
Now the girls working at the Sushi place or Il Patio... that's another story, but they do smile. :P
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And she ate meat without a knife, letting the whole piece dangle from a fork while chewing from the bottom. :hairraising: And she was a physician.
Reminded me a case when we had a Moscow commission. Of course we organized a dinner for them. A 40 y.o. woman knew how to use a knife but during dinner she was also swinging her knife and folk in the air and time to time pointing at "listeners" while she was telling us a story about her parents, native Muscovites and what degree she had. The culmination was a tea time when she licked her tea spoon and dipped it into a sugar bowl. :)
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Some are hard at work to dispel the myth that young Russian women are all slim.
WHAT?!? You mean that isn't true? Oh my! :o
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Needless to say, I was hooked. :)
Such answer definitely needs attention :)
A nice one.
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The culmination was a tea time when she licked her tea spoon and dipped it into a sugar bowl. :)
Pass the sugar, please - NOT !!
Smiling faces were rare in Yoshkar Ola, but table manners are better than the dangling-meat girl that
Gator described. In the summer of 2006, I volunteered to take out the garbage every day, which relieved
my MIL of the task. The dumpster is quite a walk into a field adjacent to the flat. As I passed by an older
woman making her way back, I smiled and offered a Здравствуйте. Stone faced, she ignored me. We
passed one another again and again as that week wore on - eventually she cracked a grin and returned
the greeting.
Needless to say, I was hooked. :)
That's a nice story, Blues.
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Needless to say, I was hooked. :)
And.....................it still took you two 3 years to get together. Imagine if you'd dropped a clanger first up, you'd still be writing, not that it is any of my f*****g business. Sorry, but you really can't imagine how I laughed for hours when I read that one.
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I/O, nice avatar.
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My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Please compose collectively a polite answer, I will send it to him.
Response: "No, I'm too hot for you" :)
P.S. Are you hot?
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I/O, nice avatar.
Yeah, 'n the bloke's OK too if ya look real close like. :-X
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P.S. Are you hot?
JR: She is.
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And.....................it still took you two 3 years to get together. Imagine if you'd dropped a clanger first up, you'd still be writing, not that it is any of my f*****g business. Sorry, but you really can't imagine how I laughed for hours when I read that one.
We still wish sometimes we could go back to the writing. :D Those 3 years were fun! :P
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My today's arrival: "Hi sexy! You look hot, would you like to chat"?
Please compose collectively a polite answer, I will send it to him.
I have never sent such a first message. However, I don't think it is the worst thing in the world that a woman could receive.
I suggest to you, like BF did, that you look beyond a simple message that may not appeal to you and think about whether you might have any slight interest in the man.
The whole point of this endeavor is to get started with people of the opposite sex (if that is your preference) and give it a chance to see where it might lead.
So I don't think it is wise to rule someone out based on a first message. Rather, use your screening criteria of age, height, weight, education, etc., to rule potential mates in or out.
Also, read the message posted by GQ in another thread in this section:
"Speaking of marriage and romance, the couple I currently work for now just celebrated their 63rd anniversary and they feel as much in love as they did when they just first started dating.
The story goes that they met in a skating rink and he spotted her for the first time and skated alongside her and his first words to her were, "Hi, we dont know each other yet but I just want to tell you now that I know we'll be married soon." Her first words to him were, "You're crazy! Get away from me!" "
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We still wish sometimes we could go back to the writing. :D Those 3 years were fun! :P
I'll bet good money those "sometimes" aren't when you're lookin' at Bub. :o
Having said that, we put in about a year of penning before we got to skin sensations plus much later nigh on a year apart before Mrs I/O (Still Miss at that time) arrived here permanently. I must admit, they were pretty special times in their own way. Not sure I'd really want to go back there but fond memories nevertheless.
Anyway, does any of that constitute "advice" men should or shouldn't be seeking at RWD? :-\
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I must admit, they were pretty special times in their own way. Not sure I'd really want to go back there but fond memories nevertheless.
I agree with you, I/O. Robert and I also would rather cherish our special time of writing as memories. We enjoy our present time :)
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P.S. Are you hot?
None of your F*** business! :P
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None of your F*** business! :P
Too late, I blew your cover (metaphorically speaking) earlier.
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None of your F*** business! :P
I'll it my business you little Russian Tart you!!!!!
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Bored1-
Don't mind me joining the thread since we're on a good subject of viewing things from a Russian woman's point of view...I would like to ask you these questions.
1. How do you view a man, or those who promote and advocate it, when they talk about bringing along names and phone numbers of other women, generally referred to as back-ups, in case things didn't work out on that man's trip to his woman whom he professed life and love with? Do you see the logic in this thereby making it understandable for you as a Russian woman? For the benefit of the men reading this, or is it disrespectful to women to do so?
I have never met such a mans and if I did our meetings would last less than 1 minute. :D
I would say though this mans should like shopping for a new car. He really want the red Porsche but will have the black one or the blue one if the red Porsche really doesn't feel right. It seem that this man onlys wants a Porsche and which it is does not matter to him. He has spent not enough time to learn why he like the red Porsche most and should not go shopping until he is absolutely certain he only want the red Porsche. He should not have the attitude that any other Porsche will be good enough.
If I was the blue Porsche and new he wanted red but then the mans came to me I would not be for sale at any price as I think I will always be second choice.
If the mans does not know what Porsche he really want other than any Porsche he should not go shopping until he does.
I admit it is a long ways to come to find the Porsche you want is not going to be available to him but if the red Porsche is THE machine and the blue Porsche is only an intersting back up then why even look at something which is not what is really wanted. You would not treat it the same way.
2. Being you've been to USA and have had a few experiences being around AM in real life, what if the roles were reversed and this site is actually for Russian women dating American men and questions & answers are being exchanged regarding relationships with American men and life in America. Would you be compelled to give your opinions, good or bad, based on your experiences? If so, to what extent? Would you advise these women, prior to their trip to USA to meet and visit their American inamorata, to bring along names and phone numbers in case they didn't like the man (vis-a-vis) after meeting them in person?
Lastly, in both scenarios, let's just hypothesize if you are the main woman (or the back-up), what is your view in this?
My experience with foreign mans has been in America and Moscow and not one experience has been the same. How can I give advice on such things when my experience with each mans has been different other than to say follow your head and your heart as I do not know anything of your mans?
I have not and never would meet a mans from the internet Russian or foreign with the intention of physcial or emotional relationship. I see no problem with writing to any mans on the internet if you wish to talk with him but I would not enter into any discussion with someone I have not met with the specific purpose of romance or marriage.
The friendship which may grow from writing may lead to romance and marriage but I would not set out of such a quest with this primary intention on the internet with any mans. This is just talking about me I must make clear. My circumstance do not allow for such due to family business reason and the peoples we are connect with in Moscow. When I marry I will be quite certain of the mans if he is Russian or foreigns because of this.
This does not mean that I do not date mans of course. ;D
When I was in LA I did not have one mans number other than family should I become lost. There seem no point for a RW to need one mans number there so definitely no need for several back up number as the mans seem to be able to find me quite easy when I was there. :D
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Bored1-
I have never met such a mans and if I did our meetings would last less than 1 minute. :D
Would it shock you to know that that is exactly the advice men give to other men when they first travel to Russia to meet the woman of their dreams? To make that even worst, they'll tell the man to hide this from all the women because what the women don't know shouldn't really matter. How's that for showing respect for Russian women, eh? Especially one you have plans on possibly marrying. LOL.
My experience with foreign mans has been in America and Moscow and not one experience has been the same. How can I give advice on such things when my experience with each mans has been different other than to say follow your head and your heart as I do not know anything of your mans?
I agree but a man can also offer an opinion based on his personal experience simply to give the other person 'an idea' of what may happen in his journey. What I readily agree with what you said upthread is there is a greater benefit for people to share information regarding travel info, visas, accomodations, etc...
It is when personal advice are structured to a finite model dealing with individual and inter-personal relations that I believe becomes pretty silly. Especially knowing these advice is coming from men you do not know nor have any idea how they conduct their own personal lives.
I see no problem with writing to any mans on the internet if you wish to talk with him but I would not enter into any discussion with someone I have not met with the specific purpose of romance or marriage.
I agree. That's exactly what I have done. But other people do things differently and it doesn't mean it has no merit.
When I was in LA I did not have one mans number other than family should I become lost. There seem no point for a RW to need one mans number there so definitely no need for several back up number as the mans seem to be able to find me quite easy when I was there. :D
Yeah, that must be terrible! Don't you just hate it everytime that happens? :P In LA, or anywhere else for that matter, as long as you're female and cute - it matters little where you're from. Next time, go to Manhattan Beach if you have the time.
But seriously, the ironic thing about that is knowing it only takes but one out of the many, isn't it?
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I am certainly female but I think cute is a matter of opinion for the mans ;D
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Would it shock you to know that that is exactly the advice men give to other men when they first travel to Russia to meet the woman of their dreams? To make that even worst, they'll tell the man to hide this from all the women because what the women don't know shouldn't really matter. How's that for showing respect for Russian women, eh? Especially one you have plans on possibly marrying. LOL.
Let's face it, whether home or abroad, this is the reality of dating. People are most likely going to be seeing other people in the early stages of dating. You seem intent on wanting to put a negative spin on MEN meeting multiple RW on their visits when in reality the RW are meeting other guys as well. IMO, the only way a man is showing disrespect for a woman is if he is contacting or visiting other women after a relationship is established. Really, it is neither the business of the man or the woman if the other is seeing other people on the first, second or even third date.
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You seem intent on wanting to put a negative spin on MEN meeting multiple RW on their visits when in reality the RW are meeting other guys as well.
Dogspot, this is an issue debated as much as age gap. You perhaps should ask GQ how many RW he met on his first trip. :evil:
I assume GQ's main point is about deception, and I agree that is a bad way to start a relationship. Also, GQ was just meeting RW casually as part of a travel and tourism trip, and during correspondence he did not lead any RW to think she was his dream woman (IIRC).
GQ wrote a sensational trip report, long disappeared at RWG. And I was there along with Donna Pedro and my future wife to share a piva at a Chucky Cheese knockoff. GQ was a very tired boy.
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Let's face it, whether home or abroad, this is the reality of dating. People are most likely going to be seeing other people in the early stages of dating. You seem intent on wanting to put a negative spin on MEN meeting multiple RW on their visits when in reality the RW are meeting other guys as well. IMO, the only way a man is showing disrespect for a woman is if he is contacting or visiting other women after a relationship is established. Really, it is neither the business of the man or the woman if the other is seeing other people on the first, second or even third date.
dogspot,
I agree 100%. I see nothing nefarious about going to the fsu to meet multiple women which may or may not lead to establishing a future relationship. It's called dating! "Don't ask, don't tell" is common place or even a courtesy in the initial dating phase of a budding relationship. IMO, this is where AM and RW get off track. Are the men going over to meet women that they may eventually be interested in marrying, or are they going to fill a wife vacancy? Same logic (or lack of logic) also applies to the RW. Maybe the long term goal is to find a partner to marry, but it should not replace the many steps required to get to that point.
If we were to use logic :rolleyes2:, there is absolutely nothing wrong with making the acquaintance of many fsu women in order to sort out the possibility of a romantic relationship evolving in the future. Even after, the first introductions, I see nothing wrong with the women or men pursuing a romantic interest in multiple partners. Where and when a couple becomes exclusive is entirely up to the couple. It sure in Hell should not be on the first semi-blind date.
KenC
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Smiling: not much different than in the US. Please and Thank You: the same. Cashiers, waitresses and clerks use these words as a matter of habit. It's either You're Welcome (pozhaluista) or Thank You Too (spasibo vam). That's some of my observations...
Holy! I must be visiting a different Russia than you Jooky......... in general :P
But I accept it, with a smile ;) , as all cultures and nationalities are different.
I have always been led to believe that many Russians see us smiling and 'polite' foreign men as either phony, weak, mentally challenged or 'blue boyish' :kissing:
Oh how many times this topic has been covered here!!
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IMO, this is where AM and RW get off track.
KenC: Frankly I think you're floggin' a dead horse on this one and have been for as long as I've known you because you're preachin' to the wrong crowd. It isn't the western men you need to educate because most of them agree with you, it is the Russian Women you should be projecting to if you really want to change things. I wouldn't give you great chances of success but you're welcome to try. :wallbash:
Well meaning and even maybe correct to an extent though you are, you are MISSING (or choosing to) the point being made by Bored1 for example. You may be right but by whose standards? Yours, mine, international or Russian? The hunt is where? And the majority of RW don't see it the way you (anyone arguing this line) do. This is what Bored1 for example is trying to say. You can cut it up how you like, those (RW) who have placed a profile on a site or whatever and taken the time to talk to you, prepare for and agree to meeting you are NOT simply looking for a casual, try and see date. For the most part, they have set their hopes higher. If by lining up a couple of options you really think you are not running a serious risk of offending that hope, then you (anyone) is trying to enforce their social norms in another country. That isn't going to win points anywhere, much less amongst the fierce pride of Russians. Whether or not the RW are right or wrong, is not yours or my call to make.
I only wish jb were still writing here, he formed part of a quite brilliant expose' on this one and why RW (mostly) don't see the "dating" thing in the same light as most westerners do.
There are two arguments which support the "right" of the western man to go the multi date road in Russia. 1) Cost in money and time of visiting. Therefore he should be entitled to maximise his exposure. 2) She's doin' that anyway, she's seein' other guys anyway so it's only fair right? Wrong. "Rights" and "Fair" don't come into play until much later. That's how it is and yes she'll cut you loose in the first 3 minutes of meeting if she chooses and won't bat an eyelid for your time and expense. That's how it is, like it or not. That's the risk. In this caper, guys take the big risks up front and girls take their big risks at the other end (by moving abroad with nobody other than him for support).
FWIW. Most men seem to actually understand this as demonstrated by the countless threads wherein men seek advice as to how to juggle the many without telling and advise each other on turning themselves into contortions to do so. All that said, the street front agency presents a very 'nother arena for those who wish to go that way.
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I'll it my business you little Russian Tart you!!!!!
"thank you for your compliment! I only chat with 12 inches or more. Do you have a webcam?"
:P
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dogspot-
Intentionally or otherwise, what you extracted out of your post to present your point (KenC too) is the most important part of my point. BACK-UPS, names and numbers of other women you compiled to contact and date in the event the woman you specifically came to FSU for didn't work out.
You either go to FSU as a man poised to meet multiple women, or a man scheduled to meet only one. There is no in between and there should not be any confusion in that distinction. No one obligates you meet only one or meet many. It is your choice and if the woman, or women, of interest are aware and willing to take that step with you, you should as any sane man would do - do it and do it accordingly.
What I do not agree with, nor understand, is how men corresponds to any one woman, and in the course of their correspondence make the woman believe - either expressed, implied, deceived, or lied to; that he is coming to FSU in the implicit purpose of meeting ONLY her. Women will often ask you straight out if you are writing or meeting her and her alone. The fault I tag as a disrespect is when men either a) lie, or b) deflect the Q and leave it unanswered because they already planned and arranged to meet other women. It matters little to me whether these women's existence hinder in how your experiences with your inamorata pans out. It's a cop-out, it's a deception, and it's silly.
You don't agree or believe me that this is disrespectful - ask your woman what she thinks about it (if you in fact did this), or else, ask back-up woman 'a', 'b', or 'c', etc...If you are confident there's nothing wrong with it - then I dare you. If you believe this is right but cannot however place yourself to ask that question to these women, then ask yourself why? Show me a woman who will welcome and embraced this deception and I'll show you a woman I would not want to have any part of.
If men cannot come to grips that there's a possibility of flaming out with their target of affection when they meet in person, then don't commit to meeting only one. If men cannot come to grips that there's always a possibility that they'll get back home empty-handed, then they better set life's priorities a little better and take a dose of introspection.
I am indifferent as to whether or not you agree with my sentiment, but at the same token I reserve the right, just as you do upon your own, to opine acts like such as being disrespectful to these women.
It boggles me to no end how AM/WMs openly declare the evils of AWs/WWs and thus justifies why they are searching in FSU, but then their first act of romance is deceive a woman the first chance they get. Now how silly is that?
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GQ,
You are making some big assumptions in your position. The biggest IMO is that some sort of deep relationship has already been established prior to visiting. Even if a "friendship" or the beginning of a friendship has been established as much as one can be so via the Net, so what? As long as the two of you have not picked out the names for your future children, then it is a "come see what happens" adventure.
I agree that going to visit one woman that you have earmarked for a potential wife with back up addys in your back pocket is a less than sincere attempt. But if they are ALL backups, what's the harm?
When I first went to meet Lena, she and I had become friends via our phone calls, but just friends, nothing romantic at all. She understood well that I was going to meet other RW on my trip and had not a problem with it. The other women I scheduled to meet were all well aware that I was not coming to spend my time exclusively with them either. I met the others, had a few dinners with some and even took another to a New Years party, which we all know is a big deal. But it wasn't a big deal, that we did not click at the party either. All in all I met maybe 10 other women in total. All showed great interest in moving forward with me, but I only had eyes for Lena. I treated the women well, enjoyed their company and even gave a few a token gift. I thanked them for their time, wished them well in their search, and was a gentleman in excusing myself from consideration. Where is the harm? Where is the foul? :noidea:
KenC
It boggles me to no end how AM/WMs openly declare the evils of AWs/WWs and thus justifies why they are searching in FSU, but then their first act of romance is deceive a woman the first chance they get. Now how silly is that?
How on earth is it a "deception" if you did not promise anything but to meet and see what happens?
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dogspot,
I agree 100%.
And I second this 100%. One of the biggest problems in keeping many men from finding the right woman and keeping many women from finding the right man is this totally unrealistic point of view by many FSUW that the man must come to see only them.
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dogspot-
Intentionally or otherwise, what you extracted out of your post to present your point (KenC too) is the most important part of my point. BACK-UPS, names and numbers of other women you compiled to contact and date in the event the woman you specifically came to FSU for didn't work out.
You either go to FSU as a man poised to meet multiple women, or a man scheduled to meet only one. There is no in between and there should not be any confusion in that distinction. No one obligates you meet only one or meet many. It is your choice and if the woman, or women, of interest are aware and willing to take that step with you, you should as any sane man would do - do it and do it accordingly.
What I do not agree with, nor understand, is how men corresponds to any one woman, and in the course of their correspondence make the woman believe - either expressed, implied, deceived, or lied to; that he is coming to FSU in the implicit purpose of meeting ONLY her. Women will often ask you straight out if you are writing or meeting her and her alone. The fault I tag as a disrespect is when men either a) lie, or b) deflect the Q and leave it unanswered because they already planned and arranged to meet other women. It matters little to me whether these women's existence hinder in how your experiences with your inamorata pans out. It's a cop-out, it's a deception, and it's silly.
You don't agree or believe me that this is disrespectful - ask your woman what she thinks about it (if you in fact did this), or else, ask back-up woman 'a', 'b', or 'c', etc...If you are confident there's nothing wrong with it - then I dare you. If you believe this is right but cannot however place yourself to ask that question to these women, then ask yourself why? Show me a woman who will welcome and embraced this deception and I'll show you a woman I would not want to have any part of.
If men cannot come to grips that there's a possibility of flaming out with their target of affection when they meet in person, then don't commit to meeting only one. If men cannot come to grips that there's always a possibility that they'll get back home empty-handed, then they better set life's priorities a little better and take a dose of introspection.
I am indifferent as to whether or not you agree with my sentiment, but at the same token I reserve the right, just as you do upon your own, to opine acts like such as being disrespectful to these women.
It boggles me to no end how AM/WMs openly declare the evils of AWs/WWs and thus justifies why they are searching in FSU, but then their first act of romance is deceive a woman the first chance they get. Now how silly is that?
A particularly below the belt and disingenuous argument you put forth.
First, you play up to the men by saying you realize it is the only logical thing to do; and then set forth the righteous thing to do by simply telling the women.
But you know full well that by telling the women, that a large majority of them will drop the guy instantly. Kind of like telling a kid that it is dangerous to cross the Interstate on foot, but that it is the quickest way home if he does it. A sure slaughter.
The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach so the man can spend the money and scarce vacation time in order to be rejected by the woman as he steps off the plane. Thus, it is a no-win situation for any man who tries to do the honorable thing as you propose.
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One of the biggest problems in keeping many men from finding the right woman and keeping many women from finding the right man is this totally unrealistic point of view by many FSUW that the man must come to see only them.
The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach...
Mars, it sure looks like you resent a woman's preference to exclusivity. Some of them just won't
agree to standing in a chorus line. That's the way it is. It's not ridiculous nor unrealistic to them.
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Mars, it sure looks like you resent a woman's preference to exclusivity. Some of them just won't
agree to standing in a chorus line. That's the way it is. It's not ridiculous nor unrealistic to them.
Wow, Vaughn,
Who would want to stand in a chorus line as you say? What a tainted way to put things. It shows your take on things rather clearly. With the implied disrespect of your statement, please explain to me how what I proposed in my last post is in any way disrespectful to the women I met?
Me thinks you may be a bit brainwashed, sir. There is a huge difference between going to meet multiple women than just one with back ups as you imply and GQ states. It is very dependent upon how deeply involved you are with the woman or women you have communicated with prior to going over. A man can wade through the profiles and eliminate all potential candidates except one and try to develop whatever kind of "relationship" can be developed via the phone and Net taking the huge risk that the "virtual" relationship doesn't disintegrate upon first eye to eye meeting (or shortly thereafter.) OR he may choose to do the final whittling down of his list of interesting women face to face.
It is up to the man to set the proper expectations of his future trip. It is disingenuous to communicate with talk of love, marriage and a future life together to multiple women. So? Don't do that. Quite simple, really. Speak of how interesting she is or how you would very much like to meet her in person and share some time with her. The phrase "kissing a lot of frogs....." swings both ways. ;D If the expectations are to meet and even have a date and no more, where is the deception?
The Internet is a wonderful and amazing tool to meet others, but most misuse it in a way that it is incapable of providing. Just ask the hundreds of men that fell in love over the Net only to find that their princess was really just a frog with good Internet skills. Or more likely, the men that have fantasized the perfect woman before seeing her face to face. And don't kid yourself, we ALL (men & women) start out in a chorus line of sorts.
KenC
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I will say this as my own view only once again.
If I was told by a mans he was coming to see me and then discover he was seeing other womans also I would not even meet him.
If I meet him and then discover this I would say goodbye immediately and leave.
I see no good reason for a mans to come all the way to Russia without having identified the woman he truly wants. By the time he comes to Russia he should be quite certain in his belief in her or why waste the time and money.
If he is not certain and wants to meet many womans then it is simply a holiday and he should say that it is a holiday and would see her if she is free and if she was not it would not matter.
To give the idea that a mans comes a long way at much expense to specifically see a particular RW has much meaning and is quite possible the most romantic thing done in such a process until any marriage.
To come and meet many womans simply shows the mans is not as confident in the womans as he makes her believe. If he is not so confident he should not comes until he is.
If I was to travel all ways to USA to see a mans it would be only to see that mans. If he not like me then so be it. If I want to simply date many mans I will stay in Russia and save the monies and time of such a trip.
For me to go to USA with the intention of seeing many mans to see which I liked best is nothing but shoppings.
Again this is my view as a RW. As I say many times no 2 RW are the same.
The original question of this thread was should mans seek advice from RWD and again I must return to how I view things as a RW. The advice given by some AM is still to see coming to Russia as normal datings. How can it be normal datings when you travel a much monies to a country you cannot speak the language or read alphabet?
It is not normal dating for a RW to travel at much monies to another county where they do not speak the language so how can the AM expect many RW to see it this way?
What is seeming normal to AMs is most not normal to RW in this respect and the fact you comes all this ways implies if you like it or not that you have more serious intentions than you may. The fact you make arrangement with a RW coming all this ways to meet you implies such serious intentions unless you qualify this by stating you comes on holiday and would meet if the opportunity is there.
In this regard you then take away many of the implications that the RW has of being the reason for your coming and the expectations are not so high.
It is not so hards to find a mans in Moscow with many womans phone number so you are just another mans if you come with this plan and are discover.
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The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach so the man can spend the money and scarce vacation time in order to be rejected by the woman as he steps off the plane. Thus, it is a no-win situation for any man who tries to do the honorable thing as you propose.
I submit that if the man is worried about burning up his funds or scarce vacation time he's probably over his head to begin with.
Not doing the honorable thing is taking a shortcut and adding even more risk factors for rejection.
Get what you pray for thing.
If you have a laptop and internet access that's probably all the backup you need.
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I submit that if the man is worried about burning up his funds or scarce vacation time he's probably over his head to begin with.
Not doing the honorable thing is taking a shortcut and adding even more risk factors for rejection.
To me that sounds like it is said by someone who has not had a WOVO go bad.
I had lots of trips that were disasters. I got off the plane to find someone who in letters seemed wonderful but in real life either there was not an iota of chemistry, the woman had a temper like the devil, was a scammer or serial dater or a total alcoholic.
Exactly how much is the woman gambling on this fantasy pen pal she is meeting. She may have asked for a few days off work, maybe not. She may have bought some new clothes, maybe not. She may have made a trip to the airport to meet him and rearranged her plans. Not much anyway.
Exactly how much is the man gambling on chasing this dream girl? Well thousands in airfare, hotels, visas, lost wages, using fixed vacation time that may be all he gets for a year.
I was never big on meeting 3 women each day for a couple of weeks but had enough bad experiences that dong a WOVO was not acceptable. I only did one towards the end of my search and it turned out to be the biggest disaster of all my trips and actually was a forum romance that happened on RWD and which I never talked about. I will talk about it now a bit. My trip started off as one to meet 5 women. As this internet romance developed I kept cancelling meetings until it turned into a WOVO. When we met, it took all of 10 minutes for her to decide we had no chemistry. I ended up with a totally wasted trip and passed on some plans to meet what could have been some women with good prospects.
I always liked to limit my first visit to 2-3 days and tell the woman I was meeting that it would give us a chance to get to know each other a little and if the meeting went will I would quickly come back and spend a much longer time with them. I never went out of my way to tell them I was meeting other women but would answer honestly if they asked and most didn't. I have had anyone refuse to meet me over it.
I am sure that many women who men do a WOVO meeting with are meeting someone else or manybe many men a few weeks later.
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I will say this as my own view only once again.
Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it with an open mind, please consider mine too.
If I was told by a mans he was coming to see me and then discover he was seeing other womans also I would not even meet him.
If I meet him and then discover this I would say goodbye immediately and leave.
It is perfectly acceptable that some women will feel this way. I would also agree that if some sort of deception is involved, he probably isn't good relationship material.
I see no good reason for a mans to come all the way to Russia without having identified the woman he truly wants. By the time he comes to Russia he should be quite certain in his belief in her or why waste the time and money.
If he is not certain and wants to meet many womans then it is simply a holiday and he should say that it is a holiday and would see her if she is free and if she was not it would not matter.
These two statements appear to contradict each other with the second confirming my point. If it is acceptable to meet him without any deep commitment because he will be on holiday in your area, then you agree with my thoughts. I understand that there would be no deep commitment either way in such a meeting. The only thing agreed to is that they would meet and see if they were further interested in each other. BTW, that is the way ALL first meetings are, no matter how well developed the couple thinks their virtual relationship has become.
Why should a man have to make the decision that any woman is "the one" prior to meeting her face to face? Would not both the man and woman be more sure in a relationship developed in real time than via electronic methods?
To give the idea that a mans comes a long way at much expense to specifically see a particular RW has much meaning and is quite possible the most romantic thing done in such a process until any marriage.
There is plenty of time for a romantic courtship after meeting face to face. I am not saying my methods would eliminate any of it, just that the wooing would begin after meeting and not before.
To come and meet many womans simply shows the mans is not as confident in the womans as he makes her believe. If he is not so confident he should not comes until he isIf I was to travel all ways to USA to see a mans it would be only to see that mans. If he not like me then so be it. If I want to simply date many mans I will stay in Russia and save the monies and time of such a trip
. OK, Bored1, let us say that you have a trip planned to visit your aunt and uncle in California. A week or two before your trip, you "meet" a nice young man via the Net that lives close to your relatives. What would be the harm in arranging a coffee date or even a day where he might take you to a local museum? Keep in mind that you are not going through all the expense and trouble of your trip for him, but just set aside some time to meet him. Or even just agree to have him call you when you are in his town to see if you could meet and do something together if it can be comfortably arranged?
For me to go to USA with the intention of seeing many mans to see which I liked best is nothing but shoppings.
Ahh, so it is the intentions that are important? ;D This may surprise you, but I agree. A man coming to Russia should not be "shopping" for a wife. But it should be perfectly acceptable for his goal to meet many interesting people and enjoy the culture and country. If he happens to meet a woman that sparks his romantic interest while there, all the better.
If you are single and unattached and interested in eventually being together romantically with another at some point in your life, would it not be wise to keep your eyes open to all possibilities regardless of where you were at any given time? You can label it "shopping" but is it not just a natural mate selection that we have inborn?
Again this is my view as a RW. As I say many times no 2 RW are the same.
The original question of this thread was should mans seek advice from RWD and again I must return to how I view things as a RW. The advice given by some AM is still to see coming to Russia as normal datings. How can it be normal datings when you travel a much monies to a country you cannot speak the language or read alphabet?
It is not normal dating for a RW to travel at much monies to another county where they do not speak the language so how can the AM expect many RW to see it this way?
All very good points and questions. It has been the subjects of many discussions here too. Fortunately, there are many interpreters/guides that have made themselves available. On my first trip to Russia, I took a day to drag my interpreter (assigned to me by a marrage agency) on a sight seeing trip to your great city of Moscow. Why would it be OK to you if I had met a lady in Moscow while sight seeing and not OK to meet the ladies at the agency?
What is seeming normal to AMs is most not normal to RW in this respect and the fact you comes all this ways implies if you like it or not that you have more serious intentions than you may. The fact you make arrangement with a RW coming all this ways to meet you implies such serious intentions unless you qualify this by stating you comes on holiday and would meet if the opportunity is there.
In this regard you then take away many of the implications that the RW has of being the reason for your coming and the expectations are not so high.
You EXACTLY prove my point here Bored1. It is very important for the man NOT to set the expectations of the woman too high prior to meeting the first time. To do so, would be deceptive and not acceptable.
It is not so hards to find a mans in Moscow with many womans phone number so you are just another mans if you come with this plan and are discover.
I may not perfectly understand your meaning here, but will attempt a response. :D When the expectations are set properly low in first meetings, I would not expect a woman to give me a high priority in return either. I would need to be flexible around her schedule too. If a man is looking for a casual meeting then he should also be prepared to have a casual response from the woman. Now if there should be some mutual sparks from this casual meeting, then all bets are off!
You see Bored1, I am not trying to eliminate the romance or the time and effort it takes to court a woman from a foreign country. In fact, I am adding a step in that the first trip would be nothing much more than meeting and getting to know the woman a little and she getting to know you a little. There will be plenty of time for some deep meaningful correspondence after the first meeting and before the second trip. I just question how meaningful any correspondence can be without meeting face to face first.
KenC
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Ken, that is a well thought out response and provides a lot of food for thought. However, I have to wonder how accurate is really is. I do think most of the men making a trip are not sightseeing and most of the women who are meeting men from abroad are not looking for a friend and to learn about other cultures.
I have had lots of times that I developed a lot of rapport and strong feelings based solely on emails. (well maybe a few beautiful photos as well). I think as Bored mentions you do go in the hopes that the fantasy's you have created in your mind and she has inspired with her emails and phone calls will turn out to be reality. Most often they don't. Spending an extended period of time with someone you have no real connection to is really difficult and uncomfortable. In a perfect world you would find what you were looking for with that person you built up the chemistry with and Bored is right. A WOVO would be the way to go but the world is not perfect and neither are the people in it. Most WOVO's are a bust. Some guys get lucky and the first one turns out to be perfect but that is the exception.
I do agree that if everyone adopted the attitude you talk about this venture would be much easier on the wallet and the heart. Everyone should go with few expectations and an open mind. I do think you did do that when you went to see Lena and that is great. I don't think that is the mindset of most when they make a trip.
I do think that if a woman and a man have built a lot of chemistry before the trip that she has a right to expect more than an afternoon coffee date and they should spend enough time to know if they are right for each other or not but I think the first trip is to find out what chemistry and compatibility exists between two people when they meet in real life and until then they are only pen pals. Men have enough money and time invested that meeting only one woman is a big mistake.
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To me that sounds like it is said by someone who has not had a WOVO go bad.
Yep, you are right.
1. I wouldn't go jetting halfway around the world to date someone I had not met, much less many I had not met.. Much more comfy at home.
2. I never dated with the intent of marriage.. Why ruin a good thing.
3. Life has provided for me quite well in many ways, so I never felt the need to 'force the issue' when it comes to relationships. I just trust whatever life has in store for me. I simply let them happen and without any pressure. Dry spells were relatively short and often at times in my life when I needed solace and introspect. I have found that seeking what "I want" only causes trouble.
I did go visit my wife after we dated a couple of times, MOVO if you will.. Had things gone south I wouldn't have had any problem finding other things to do, and believe me seeking a marriage partner would have been the very last on my list.
I guess I view marriage as an unforeseen result, rather than a goal. If you find yourself paddling upstream with a woman, relax and change direction.
By all means guys, go have some adventurous dates but you'll be much better off not seeking marriage.
quello che sarà,sarà.. worked well for me near a half a century so far.. I see no reason at all to start doubting a good thing.
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2. I never dated with the intent of marriage.. Why ruin a good thing.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Wow, Vaughn,
Who would want to stand in a chorus line as you say? What a tainted way to put things. It shows your take on things rather clearly. With the implied disrespect of your statement, please explain to me how what I proposed in my last post is in any way disrespectful to the women I met?
Huh? I never meant to imply dating many is disrespectful at all. I was just commenting on Mars' resentment
that there are, in fact, many ladies who feel this way. Your approach was actually quite normal, and respectful in
all ways. I was a very fortunate WOVO - with a fishing expedition in Arkhangelsk as my back-up plan. Had I wound
up fishing the northern waters, my second journey would likely have mirrored your own style of meeting more than
one woman.
By no means am I "brainwashed" thinking my luck is the only way to go - in fact, many times I've recommended
that WM visit more than a few - within a workable geographic area ie- NOT spend all their precious ground time
traveling between Republics. But when I see new guys here comfy with the calculated risk of a WOVO, I give
them encouragement to see it through.
"Chorus line" is not a negative implication by me personally, but that's just how some ladies react knowing they
are Date #3 or 5 - and while that's a shame, it does exist.
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I submit that if the man is worried about burning up his funds or scarce vacation time he's probably over his head to begin with.
You have a leg to stand on with respect to the money angle, but quite a stretch to bring in the vacation time. In your ideal, only men with extra ordinary vacation time should get involved.
Also, I respect your experience and comments on many topics, however I think you would do us all a favor if in each of your posts (you could put it in your byline) that you are not speaking from the general framework of men who are traveling to a different county in this venture. You did it from an 'in-country' viewpoint.
That alone makes a lot (most?) of your comments quite irrelevant for the average guy.
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Your opinion is your opinion and I respect it with an open mind, please consider mine too.
I do not see that I have disrespect your position but if I have appeared so then I apologise. Maybe it is my bad English and ability to communicate which has caused this.
It is perfectly acceptable that some women will feel this way. I would also agree that if some sort of deception is involved, he probably isn't good relationship material. These two statements appear to contradict each other with the second confirming my point. If it is acceptable to meet him without any deep commitment because he will be on holiday in your area, then you agree with my thoughts. I understand that there would be no deep commitment either way in such a meeting. The only thing agreed to is that they would meet and see if they were further interested in each other.
My response was initially to GQ statment that the men had professed love for these women before coming when they also had a list of back up womans.
I tried to say after that if on holidays and no such statement had been made to womans then that is OK. I doubt many RWs would take the mans seriously if he say he is on holidays but of course many would meet him if he was here saying he was on holidays as it is quite a neutral statements and implies nothing more than that.
Why should a man have to make the decision that any woman is "the one" prior to meeting her face to face? Would not both the man and woman be more sure in a relationship developed in real time than via electronic methods?
There is plenty of time for a romantic courtship after meeting face to face. I am not saying my methods would eliminate any of it, just that the wooing would begin after meeting and not before.
Again my reply was in response to GQ statement he had already stated to the womans firm intetions towards her.
OK, Bored1, let us say that you have a trip planned to visit your aunt and uncle in California. A week or two before your trip, you "meet" a nice young man via the Net that lives close to your relatives. What would be the harm in arranging a coffee date or even a day where he might take you to a local museum? Keep in mind that you are not going through all the expense and trouble of your trip for him, but just set aside some time to meet him. Or even just agree to have him call you when you are in his town to see if you could meet and do something together if it can be comfortably arranged?
There would no no harms but yet again my response was to GQ statement the masn ahd already made firm intentions towards the womans.
I my case as I have already said I would not meet a mans from the internet with the intention of romance or physical relationships. I will state again my circumstance does not really allow me to do so.
Ahh, so it is the intentions that are important? ;D This may surprise you, but I agree. A man coming to Russia should not be "shopping" for a wife. But it should be perfectly acceptable for his goal to meet many interesting people and enjoy the culture and country. If he happens to meet a woman that sparks his romantic interest while there, all the better.
Yes it is the intentions and my responses were made to GQ's statement about such intentions.
If you are single and unattached and interested in eventually being together romantically with another at some point in your life, would it not be wise to keep your eyes open to all possibilities regardless of where you were at any given time? You can label it "shopping" but is it not just a natural mate selection that we have inborn?
It depends on circumstance. Not everyone has the option to look at such possibility as freely as other.
All very good points and questions. It has been the subjects of many discussions here too. Fortunately, there are many interpreters/guides that have made themselves available. On my first trip to Russia, I took a day to drag my interpreter (assigned to me by a marrage agency) on a sight seeing trip to your great city of Moscow. Why would it be OK to you if I had met a lady in Moscow while sight seeing and not OK to meet the ladies at the agency?
Again there is no problem if you have made no such comments as stated by GQ. Personally I would prefer to meet you in the street than on the internet as it will save you and I much time and writing if I do not like you for some reason. :D
You EXACTLY prove my point here Bored1. It is very important for the man NOT to set the expectations of the woman too high prior to meeting the first time. To do so, would be deceptive and not acceptable.
That has been my point I have tried to make from GQ example throughout. He asked me the question and I have replied to his question which was something about being surprised that mans who have professed love or made a particular RW feel she is his dream to also come with a hidden agenda of other womens.
It have simply responded to his question. As you seem to answer his question the same as I then I do not see why you have cross examined me so. :-\
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Mars, it sure looks like you resent a woman's preference to exclusivity. Some of them just won't
agree to standing in a chorus line. That's the way it is. It's not ridiculous nor unrealistic to them.
It is completely ridiculous and unrealistic!!!!!!
Exclusivity before a first meeting . . . even exclusivity after a first date . . . both totally ridiculous ideas.
You ladies and brown nosing men; look at it like this.
The man, in many cases, will be making one trip during one year. So he will be in a particular FSU town once during a given year.
So the woman says to him, I will only meet with you if you agree to meet no one else on this trip to my city.
Now, how would the women and brown nosing men respond if the man said:
OK, then lets both agree to this equally. I will meet with you only, in your city, for this one year during which I will be in your city (albeit only a short time). And you, in turn, must agree to meet with only me, in your city, during this entire year in which I will be in your city (albeit during only a short time).
So both parties must in effect agree to meet only each other in her particular city during that entire year, even if they only meet each other for 10 minutes.
If the man must give up all contacts with those of the opposite sex in that particular city for a year, then the woman should do it also.
Yes, of course, the women and brown nosing men find this idea ridiculous and unrealistic . . . just as their idea was likewise.
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You have a leg to stand on with respect to the money angle, but quite a stretch to bring in the vacation time. In your ideal, only men with extra ordinary vacation time should get involved.
Also, I respect your experience and comments on many topics, however I think you would do us all a favor if in each of your posts (you could put it in your byline) that you are not speaking from the general framework of men who are traveling to a different county in this venture. You did it from an 'in-country' viewpoint.
That alone makes a lot (most?) of your comments quite irrelevant for the average guy.
Aha.. so just because I am in EU means it's 'in country'?
The only 'easy' part is that I did not have to search to find a woman to date. The rest is quite the same.
Yes, on the whole, those whittling away at two weeks a year vacation time can forget it. Even EU workers with 21 or so workday vacation time may find themselves stressed.. time flies when you're having fun.
In one year, I spent over two months on the ground in FSU prior to marriage and a boatload of unproductive (in business sense) 'off work' time once my family arrived. Had I not been self employed I would have been flat out fired.
Yes, I agree.. quite irrelevant for the average guy who wants to buzz on over, find a girl that will wash his feet, get her back forthwith and into a paying job to pay off the credit card bill, not to mention keep her busy enough so she doesn't call work 10 times a day because she is bored.
You and others may not like what I have to say and that's really great if it provokes a little thought and turns heads towards the writing on the walls in here.
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Ken, that is a well thought out response and provides a lot of food for thought. However, I have to wonder how accurate is really is. I do think most of the men making a trip are not sightseeing and most of the women who are meeting men from abroad are not looking for a friend and to learn about other cultures.
Of course you are correct here, but my point is that not to emphasise meeting just one woman. The man should be prepared for activities other than meeting a singular woman.
I have had lots of times that I developed a lot of rapport and strong feelings based solely on emails. (well maybe a few beautiful photos as well). I think as Bored mentions you do go in the hopes that the fantasy's you have created in your mind and she has inspired with her emails and phone calls will turn out to be reality. Most often they don't. Spending an extended period of time with someone you have no real connection to is really difficult and uncomfortable. In a perfect world you would find what you were looking for with that person you built up the chemistry with and Bored is right. A WOVO would be the way to go but the world is not perfect and neither are the people in it. Most WOVO's are a bust. Some guys get lucky and the first one turns out to be perfect but that is the exception.
I actually learned this lesson prior to going to Russia. I spent the longest weekend of my life in Nashville, TN. No language or cultural barrier necessary, just a phone/Internet fantasy gone awry. :rolleyes2:
Yep, you are right.
1. I wouldn't go jetting halfway around the world to date someone I had not met, much less many I had not met.. Much more comfy at home.
And yet you later say:
By all means guys, go have some adventurous dates but you'll be much better off not seeking marriage.
These two statements appear contradictory to me, BC.
2. I never dated with the intent of marriage.. Why ruin a good thing.
And yet you are indeed married.
:rolleyes2: 8) So you must have been open to the idea of marriage. Not a bad attitude IMO. I do agree that many (most?) men and women in this venture put far too much emphasis on getting married than they should.
3. Life has provided for me quite well in many ways, so I never felt the need to 'force the issue' when it comes to relationships. I just trust whatever life has in store for me. I simply let them happen and without any pressure. Dry spells were relatively short and often at times in my life when I needed solace and introspect. I have found that seeking what "I want" only causes trouble.
Forcing agendas is usually not the best course of action.
I did go visit my wife after we dated a couple of times, MOVO if you will.. Had things gone south I wouldn't have had any problem finding other things to do, and believe me seeking a marriage partner would have been the very last on my list.
I see very little difference between you meeting your wife where ever you did meet her and a man casually meeting some women in their home country.
I guess I view marriage as an unforeseen result, rather than a goal. If you find yourself paddling upstream with a woman, relax and change direction.
I 100% agree with this statement. I just happen to be of the opinion that you could meet the right woman anywhere, including her home country.
Vaughn,
Sorry for misunderstanding your post, My bad.
KenC
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The man, in many cases, will be making one trip during one year. So he will be in a particular FSU town once during a given year
.
What's truly ridiculous is a man who can make only one trip per year meeting many women over the course of a week or two and deciding to marry one.
I agree that being exclusive with someone you haven't met is also ridiculous. The whole 'process' most men follow in this pursuit is ridiculous and unrealistic. It doesn't seem to me that Bored and others are arguing for exclusivity or meeting only one woman. They're arguing against deception, that's all.
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Quote from: BC on Today at 15:23:41
Yep, you are right.
1. I wouldn't go jetting halfway around the world to date someone I had not met, much less many I had not met.. Much more comfy at home.
And yet you later say:
By all means guys, go have some adventurous dates but you'll be much better off not seeking marriage.
These two statements appear contradictory to me, BC.
Yeah, to the second I should have added 'If you must..' at the beginning, but even then it sounds a bit redundant when someone already caught the 'itch'. ;D
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Bored1,
I am not in the least trying to imply you disrespected my opinion in any way. I understand now that you were just responding to GQ's scenario, which as I said up thread was slanted toward making the men look like insincere deceptive creatures IMO. The end result is that you and I both agree under the casual circumstances as I proposed. 8) I did not mean to make my post sound like a "cross examination" either but I misunderstood your response.
KenC
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Ken-
Methinks you misunderstood my point based on your response.
When I first went to meet Lena, she and I had become friends via our phone calls, but just friends, nothing romantic at all. She understood well that I was going to meet other RW on my trip and had not a problem with it. The other women I scheduled to meet were all well aware that I was not coming to spend my time exclusively with them either. I met the others, had a few dinners with some and even took another to a New Years party, which we all know is a big deal.
The description you laid out about your maiden trip is what I would hardly describe as WOVO. You came knowing, as did the women, that you will be there to afford all and each one of you an opportunity to personalize your virtual acquaintance and decide if compatibility even exist.
This is not a discussion of merit between WOVO / WMVM.
My comment specifically targeted the act of deception. When a woman ask a man if she is the only one he writes to and is planning on visiting, and he either replied a) Yes, or b) deflects the question and leave it unanswered ('don't ask, don't tell' advice) in hopes he never had to tell her the truth - then to me that is a lie or a deception if they in fact contacted and took along names and numbers of women to see and date 'just in case'.
C'mon, you see this advice gets handed out all the time and taken by men. Why are we skirting around this specific issue?
But you know full well that by telling the women, that a large majority of them will drop the guy instantly. Kind of like telling a kid that it is dangerous to cross the Interstate on foot, but that it is the quickest way home if he does it. A sure slaughter.
The first thing I wanted to say is....so what? To somehow believe being open and honest to women, any woman, you don't know will somehow cause spontaneous combustion, or as you say, slaugthered; tells me that you would easily opt to deceive a woman than take that chance.
The women set up this ridiculous situation by their insistence on the WOVO approach so the man can spend the money and scarce vacation time in order to be rejected by the woman as he steps off the plane. Thus, it is a no-win situation for any man who tries to do the honorable thing as you propose.
So deception is raison d'être?
If you feel so strongly about that conviction you expressed above, then I am very curious to know why on earth would you be investing your precious time and money to court and marry one of these women?
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Ken-
Methinks you misunderstood my point based on your response.
The description you laid out about your maiden trip is what I would hardly describe as WOVO. You came knowing, as did the women, that you will be there to afford all and each one of you an opportunity to personalize your virtual acquaintance and decide if compatibility even exist.
This is not a discussion of merit between WOVO / WMVM.
My comment specifically targeted the act of deception. When a woman ask a man if she is the only one he writes to and is planning on visiting, and he either replied a) Yes, or b) deflects the question and leave it unanswered ('don't ask, don't tell' advice) in hopes he never had to tell her the truth - then to me that is a lie or a deception if they in fact contacted and took along names and numbers of women to see and date 'just in case'.
C'mon, you see this advice gets handed out all the time and taken by men. Why are we skirting around this specific issue?
GQ,
When did you ever witness me "skirting" any issue? :noidea: Never have I ever been accused of being shy! 8)
I fail to understand why a "don't ask, don't tell" position is a deception or a lie of any sort. Whatever the man's other plans may be, it is simply none of the lady's business in the beginning. Not to be harsh, or ungentlemanly in any way, a deflection may be the kindest course of action to be honest. I would never expect a woman to give me full disclosure of her dating itinerary in the beginning either. As a new man in her life, I simply do not have the right to ask. If and when she and I become involved to a point where these things should be divulged, then they will be.
Now if the woman is very forward and insist upon a direct answer to the question "Are you visiting any other women?" I would answer with the truth. I would explain that as she and I were curious enough to meet in person, I had become Internet or phone friends with another lady too. While I was in Ukraine/Russia, I wanted to say hello and share a coffee with her too. Or I could say that I was going to hang out with Jack Bragg in the next town for a few days.
If the man has made no assurances that he is exclusively visiting the one woman, I see no harm in not sharing his complete detailed itinerary. Should the question be put forth (improperly in my mind) prior to the trip, I would go into a detailed explanation that both you and she are not yet in an exclusive relationship and she should feel free to date others too.
I also see no harm in a man having a batch of addys in his back pocket, in case plan "B" is necessary. That is just common sense man. Of course it shows some doubt in his mind that things may not go perfectly with his number one girl, but only a fool would not give some thought to the possibility of everything not being perfect. Everyone (men & women) should have some very big doubts when meeting for the first time. And I would go even further than just the "first time" too! Ask Dave if he regrets not having a back up plan on his second trip to visit his lady. What is the old saying? Plan for the best but be prepared for the worst!
KenC
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"Don't ask, don't tell" does not apply as it means the RW should not ask. Most RW ask.
The appropriate policy IMO should be "don't volunteer and be forthright if when she asks."
Accept the fact that she may decline to meet you. That's the risk you take. I find it despicable to bullshiit a woman that you are coming just to see her when you have plans for other RW.
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My Observations Explaining RW’s Distaste for A Man Meeting Other Women
RW Dating Style
RW are more serious about what I call dating. In my younger days, it was common to be dating different women at the same time. The few RW I knew well did not date RM that way. If they became interested in a RM after the first date, they would not consider dating another man.
Many RW have dated less than we expect. My wife hooked up at age 18 with the man who became her husband. Prior to him, she had a few dates with one RM without sex.
Meeting a Western Man
Even though a RW considers us as a stranger from a strange land, she hopes we are special, worthy of her attention and love. Without exception she is willing to spend all of her available time with the stranger if he comes to her city. If the meeting proves he is indeed special, how can they have a relationship if he will now meet other RW? If he is not special, that is his fault, not hers. In her mind he was stupid for not recognizing the incompatibility.
Destiny
Many RW believe in destiny. The Gods of Destiny would never hatch a series of eventful coincidences that include meeting other women.
Heightened Expectations
Deciding to consider marriage to a foreigner, listing herself on the Internet as “available,” corresponding with many foreigners who never make the trip, finally having a man decide to travel to her city, knowing that important decisions must be made in a compressed amount of time ….all add up to heightened expectations, perhaps unrealistic. Suffice it to say circumspection flies out the window.
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"Don't ask, don't tell" does not apply as it means the RW should not ask. Most RW ask.
The appropriate policy IMO should be "don't volunteer and be forthright if when she asks."
Accept the fact that she may decline to meet you. That's the risk you take. I find it despicable to bullshiit a woman that you are coming just to see her when you have plans for other RW.
Gator,
You're probably correct. However, not one RW asked me about meeting others when I went on my trip, oh so many years ago. All assumed I was meeting others. It really was no big deal. Again, as long as the man is honest and is not misleading the woman into thinking he is only coming to see her, no harm no foul. It is funny too, in thinking about this conversation, I remembered I was actually dating an American woman at the time of my first trip to Russia. She understood that we were not in an exclusive relationship at the time too. I just told her I was going to be out of town for a week. Never told her I was going to Russia. Some how she came up with the assumption I was going to Las Vegas for the week and I never corrected her. Would that make her plan "C"?
I really didn't rate who was "A", "B" or "C" at the time. I was a single and available man without any commitments to any single woman. I believe I had a healthy attitude about it then as I do now. "You want to get together and enjoy a dinner, drink, concert or whatever with me? Yes? Great! No? OK too." I would date and spend time with a woman while it was enjoyable for me. Once it stopped being enjoyable, I moved on. No commitment before it's time. As for marriage, I am open to the idea eventually, but it is not a priority. Of course I wasn't wife hunting when I met Lena either. :rolleyes2:
KenC
Congrats on your Bucs win
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"thank you for your compliment! I only chat with 12 inches or more. Do you have a webcam?"
:P
Of course I have a webcam...
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only men with extra ordinary vacation time should get involved.
Absolutely. I was working my own show when I started this crazy caper and could please myself regarding time. Now I have 5 weeks / year paid leave, about 10 weeks banked and I wouldn't even remotely consider this caper under present circumstances. Put simply, for whatever reasons, RW ain't for everyone.
Short resources will kill it.
Financial resources.
Time resources.
Information resources.
For those who haven't spent much if any time in Russia particularly over the last few years, I would tender this. The landscape has changed massively over the last two or three years and beyond most imagination over the last 10. 'Tis a very different world there now.
KenC: IIRC you met women through a shop front agency? That’s a very different ball game. The reasonable assumption for anyone (man or woman) listing with a shop front is others will meet others. In direct communications the assumption is much less so.
Gator: You are touching on something I’ve observed over a number of years. Far too many WM are trying to implant (almost dictate) their “dating” philosophy on RW and from my observations they will be pushing sch!t up hill for a long time because……………
Again, from my observations past and present (including within the last 6 months on the ground in 4 different Russian locations) for the most part if a RW decides / agrees to “go out” (date if you like) a guy, RM or WM, she sees him as the (not A but the) present marriage prospect until proven otherwise. Further, often the family or part thereof have already been consulted. Innocent until proven guilty springs to mind. It is just a very different picture from the likes of USA, Aus or other similar. “Dating” as we know it just isn’t so much the norm.
Anyway, it's funny how this has drifted to a VO vs VM thread very quickly which at the end of the day is up to each and every. However if guys think they can dictate the terms across the pond, there is news for them and it ain’t good. Anyone got a view on age gaps?
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Many RW have dated less than we expect. My wife hooked up at age 18 with the man who became her husband. Prior to him, she had a few dates with one RM without sex.
Yes, we always say this. "You are only the second, honey... :-*'
(... and only because the first was an ex-husband. Who was in between is absolutely doesn't matter :P)
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Yes, we always say this. "You are only the second, honey... :-*'
(... and only because the first was an ex-husband. Who was in between is absolutely doesn't matter :P)
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Now if the woman is very forward and insist upon a direct answer to the question "Are you visiting any other women?" I would answer with the truth. I would explain that as she and I were curious enough to meet in person, I had become Internet or phone friends with another lady too. While I was in Ukraine/Russia, I wanted to say hello and share a coffee with her too.
Wonderful! Do you mind elaborating why you would?
I also see no harm in a man having a batch of addys in his back pocket..... That is just common sense man.
Sure. As many as you can jam into your Blueberry. For men who isn't sure about their fate going to see only one woman - be straight and say you're not. That gives her an option as to whether or not to entertain seeing you. If she feels it isn't for her to be involved with you because of it, fine. Look for someone else who'll understand and agree to it. If she does, then that's even better.
When you date at home, the point when both of you discuss not seeing anyone else is the point you both agree to be 'exclusive'. You've gone beyond casually dating. Booty calls and casual intimacy come to a screeching halt.
Where I believe it isn't cool in my book is when a man deliberately deceives a woman (because he has in fact contacted other women and had gotten their contact info - just in case) in fear she may exercise her option not to see him if she felt this isn't something she would rather not be involved in.
Considering your conviction expressed above, surely I don't need to further explain that point to you, yes?
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Wonderful! Do you mind elaborating why you would?
Don't quite understand the question here.
Sure. As many as you can jam into your Blueberry. For men who isn't sure about their fate going to see only one woman - be straight and say you're not. That gives her an option as to whether or not to entertain seeing you. If she feels it isn't for her to be involved with you because of it, fine. Look for someone else who'll understand and agree to it. If she does, then that's even better.
When you date at home, the point when both of you discuss not seeing anyone else is the point you both agree to be 'exclsuive'. You've gone beyond casually dating.
Where I believe it isn't cool in my book is when a man deliberately deceives a woman (because he has in fact contacted other women and had gotten their contact info - just in case) in fear she may exercise her option not to see him if she felt this isn't something she would rather not be involved in.
Considering your conviction expressed above, surely I don't need to further explain that point to you, yes?
Look, people are not committed until they are. And even if and when one side of a relationship becomes committed, doesn't necessarily mean the other is too. I am the most faithful man in the world after marriage, but before I swallow the hook, I am what I am. I do not or ever plan to be a guy that is in to a constant assessment of a relationship step by step. Don't like it? Don't stay in it then.
KenC
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Don't quite understand the question here.
If you'll tell her straight-up you're seeing other women if asked - what fuels that conviction?
Look, people are not committed until they are. And even if and when one side of a relationship becomes committed, doesn't necessarily mean the other is too.
Great! Now were getting closer. All the more reason tell it like it is, isn't it?
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You and others may not like what I have to say and that's really great if it provokes a little thought and turns heads towards the writing on the walls in here.
Has nothing to do with whether what you say is liked or not.
Rather, much of what you say is simply irrelevant to the average poster here who is facing an entirely different situation.
Your comments about married life with a FSUW are very relevant.
Your comments about getting to the married stage are not; because you faced a much different environment.
My view on this extends to several other posters here such as Misha and others whom I don't quite remember right now. You, Misha and these others simply faced an entirely different environment than the vast majority of the posters here.
The comments from your group show an almost complete lack of reality (with respect to helpfulness to the other men) similar to those espoused by Marie Antoinette.
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If you'll tell her straight-up you're seeing other women if asked - what fuels that conviction?
Great! Now were getting closer. All the more reason tell it like it is, isn't it?
GQ,
Sorry dude, but you still seem to be talking in riddles on the first part. Maybe this will answer your question though.
In the beginning stages of any relationship, I believe there are lines of privacy. I will tell a woman all that I am comfortable in sharing based upon my perception of how close we are. My life is not an open book to all comers, sorry. I have no problem in saying "Sorry, dear, I am not comfortable in sharing that with you yet." I will move forward at my own chosen speed. Damn the cultural difference if that is in play as Gator says above. I will respect hers but also insist she respect mine too. If my ways are not acceptable, then she should move on. As Lee Iaccoca used to say, "If you can find a better deal, then buy it!" In this case "go for it!" Too many guys here are willing to sell their own self respect and jump through any hoop put before them by a RW IMO. I know that sounds terribly inflexible, but I am willing to compromise if I think compromise is in order, but then again, I ain't Silly Putty like some men here. (Willing to transform myself into any shape the woman prefers) Some may call it arrogance, but I think it is confidence in ones own self worth.
KenC
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You, Misha and these others simply faced an entirely different environment than the vast majority of the posters here.
What exactly was this different environment? The main difference: I spoke Russian and I was able to spend a few months in Russia. Otherwise, it was pretty standard: met a variety of women, one fell in love with me and I fell in love with her. Once we knew we were compatible, we married.
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Sorry dude, but you still seem to be talking in riddles on the first part. Maybe this will answer your question though.
LOL. Dude, no, I wasn't talking in riddles - but now you are. Let me remind you again what you said in the event I made reference to it and it gets lost in translation ( Try not to read between the lines with my questions below).
First you said:
"Now if the woman is very forward and insist upon a direct answer to the question "Are you visiting any other women?" I would answer with the truth. I would explain that as she and I were curious enough to meet in person, I had become Internet or phone friends with another lady too. While I was in Ukraine/Russia, I wanted to say hello and share a coffee with her too. Or I could say that I was going to hang out with Jack Bragg in the next town for a few days."
Now you're saying:
In the beginning stages of any relationship, I believe there are lines of privacy. I will tell a woman all that I am comfortable in sharing based upon my perception of how close we are. My life is not an open book to all comers, sorry. I have no problem in saying "Sorry, dear, I am not comfortable in sharing that with you yet." I will move forward at my own chosen speed. Damn the cultural difference if that is in play as Gator says above. I will respect hers but also insist she respect mine too. If my ways are not acceptable, then she should move on. yada, yada, yada..."
I will try again and since you added a new (in my opinion a reversal from the first) statement, additional questions came to life.
1. Which is really your conviction? Statement #1 or Statement #2?
2. If your true conviction is Statement #1, the question was: Why would you tell her you are seeing other women. Because it's the right thing to do?
3. If your true conviction is Statement #2, then are you saying you will deceive a woman by either lying to her, or avoid answering a direct question that you are seeing other women and hide behind the ' it's your life and it is not an open book' - so you won't have to tell her?
I'm hopeful this is a bit clearer now.
Footnote: I haven't yet met a woman from anywhere who expects a complete bio from a man - day one of dating. Asking a man during the early stages of a relationship if they are seeing other women is not akin to making your life an open book. LOL. Way too much drama there, Ken. Asking a man (or a man asking a woman) if they are dating other people is a normal process of dating. That is not an invasion of privacy, chrissakes - MOST specially in this day and age.
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GQ,
I would prefer to not be asked or to tell if I am seeing any one else or not . I do not think it is a proper question in the beginning regardless if you think it is normal for christsake or not. I would think it a very invasive question from any woman before we met and even after just a few dates. I might even consider it a red flag for a controlling or insecure issues.
If the lady in question persited in asking, I would not lie to her but I also might just blow her off too. BTW, avoiding the answer or refusing to answer is not a deception of any kind. It is information I choose not to share at that point of the relationship. I would add that I think it is rude to ask the question. I have never asked it nor have I been asked it before. It falls into the area of if you have to ask, you really do not want to know the answer.
KenC
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3. If your true conviction is Statement #2, then are you saying you will deceive a woman by either lying to her, or avoid answering a direct question that you are seeing other women and hide behind the ' it's your life and it is not an open book' - so you won't have to tell her?
You know, GQ, this is a really pissy thing to say. I NEVER said I would lie to a woman and I do not consider it hiding behind a damn thing, if I choose not to share this information with a new woman in my life. You may think it is necessary to kiss a woman's ass and jump through every hoop she might put in front of you, but I don't.
KenC
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Kiss a woman in the booty? You now sound like Mars. Is that how you look at men who chooses to be on the level with women they chose to associate with on a personal level? LOL. More power to the two of you, then.
Silly me to believe getting to know one another is a vital part of dating. LOL. If you ain't gonna know her, whattcha datin' her for?
Heck, if I'm casually dating anyone at home, I sure as hell would like to know who and how many she's dating - Don't you? I certainly wouldn't blame her for asking me, too and certainly won't think it's some silly act of invasion of my privacy like you do. I'm not even factoring STDs in this equation yet....but even that by itself you better believe it's everyone's business and responsibility to know, man. I'll certainly be very leery of a woman who doesn't ask nor care to....
I asked you questions to better understand where you're coming but you keep sidestepping the issue. Then you give me 2 conflicting answers (IMV), so I asked for an elaboration...
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Kiss a woman in the booty? You now sound like Mars. Is that how you look at men who chooses to be on the level with women they chose to associate with on a personal level? LOL. More power to the two of you, then.
ON THE LEVEL? WTF is not on the level about choosing NOT to share every intimate detail of your life before you meet a woman? Get real dude. I guess I am not so desperate to submit to an anal exam prior to getting involved with a woman like you seem to suggest is the only way to be "on the level." Your attitude that there is something devious about not sharing every detail prior to having a relationship is total BS.
Silly me to believe getting to know one another is a vital part of dating. LOL. If you ain't gonna know her, whattcha datin' her for?
All in due time dude. A relationship is a journey not a destination. You share more and more things as their relationship progresses. A new acquaintance does not need to know every detail of your life in the beginning or in this case even before the real relationship begins. :cluebat:
Heck, if I'm casually dating anyone at home, I sure as hell would like to know who and how many she's dating - Don't you?
No, it isn't any of my or her business in the beginning stages of a relationship. The only thing that is important is to know you enjoy each others company. Period. Where the relationship leads you will determine what and how much you each want to voluntarily divulge.
I certainly wouldn't blame her for asking me, too and certainly won't think it's some silly act of invasion of my privacy like you do. I'm not even factoring STDs in this equation yet....but even that by itself you better believe it's everyone's business and responsibility to know, man. I'll certainly be very leery of a woman who doesn't ask nor care to....
Oh, so you required a sexual history and a current STD test before you met your wife? I must of missed that part of your trip report.
I asked you questions to better understand where you're coming but you keep sidestepping the issue. Then you give me 2 conflicting answers (IMV), so I asked for an elaboration...
More BS from you! I see no conflict in the two different scenarios at all. I would never volunteer the information that I would be meeting other women. I do not see this as a devious practice in any way. It is simply not relevant to the first meeting. I am not so desperate for any woman to offer up the details in order to meet her. If a woman rudely persists to demand such information, I would not lie to her, but I would seriously consider not meeting her as this action would tend to be a warning sign for her insecurity or controlling nature. To think that the man OWES a detailed explanation of his personal life in order to meet a woman is ridiculous and a sure sign of one desperate man.
KenC
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I'm one of those that believe you should be open and honest with someone you plan to visit; lying by omission is still lying. Of course, as someone pointed out, in a MOB dating agency type environment most anticipate that the people they are talking to are also talking to others and may even be visiting them. Still, I think there are women even in these environments that would expect you to visit them only and I see nothing inherently wrong with that, it's their choice after all. Not being open with them removes that choice and the reverse is also true of course if they aren't honest with you; if you guys have issues with women that would require you to have a monogamous visit then you should find someone else graciously.
FWIW I certainly would not have entertained visiting my wife had she been dating or even talking to other guys but then again, I wasn't desperately trying to find a RW to marry and I had options at home if I'd wanted them. I also stopped talking to other women (in the dating sense :D ) once it became clear that I was interested in focusing on my wife and that was after just a few days after we started talking and I made that clear to her.
We all have choices and requirements and I understand the need for some men to line up a bunch of women "just in case" but it's incredibly narrow minded not to accept that some women do not want to be one of many and want the choice not to be.
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You have a leg to stand on with respect to the money angle, but quite a stretch to bring in the vacation time. In your ideal, only men with extra ordinary vacation time should get involved.
Also, I respect your experience and comments on many topics, however I think you would do us all a favor if in each of your posts (you could put it in your byline) that you are not speaking from the general framework of men who are traveling to a different county in this venture. You did it from an 'in-country' viewpoint.
That alone makes a lot (most?) of your comments quite irrelevant for the average guy.
I agree with BC; if you can't spend enough time in country the likelihood of short term or long term disaster increases dramatically. My guess is that the majority of train wrecks occur just because these guys did not spend enough time with their prospective wives.
If I couldn't have spent the many months with my wife that I did spend, I would not have been willing to get involved in the first place; it would not have been fair on either of us.
Do you honestly think it's wise that American's with just couple of weeks a year vacation time are attempting this? Personally, I think it's extremely inadvisable.
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I think you could look at anything in life as being extremely inadvisable. Does getting married to someone at all see advisable. You get all your problems and theirs too, have to worry about things that can go wrong. How about a job, take one of those and you have to pay taxes, worry about transportation. Darn, buying a house, all that upkeep, taxes, mowing grass.
I have always believed you decide what you want in life, what is really important then you decide how to accomplish it with the assets and limitations you have. I don't see a problem with someone who only has two weeks vacation a year accomplishing this, they just need to approach it a bit different than those who can spend all kinds of time there.
As far as that honesty thing, I have to agree with Ken, you need to tell her most everything but not before you meet. I think dating is getting to know each other and as you get to know each other you can find out more about your lives. Frankly I never wanted to know everything. I would want to know the person I am marrying but never felt I needed to know every detail about everything that happened.
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I think you could look at anything in life as being extremely inadvisable. Does getting married to someone at all see advisable. You get all your problems and theirs too, have to worry about things that can go wrong. How about a job, take one of those and you have to pay taxes, worry about transportation. Darn, buying a house, all that upkeep, taxes, mowing grass.
I have always believed you decide what you want in life, what is really important then you decide how to accomplish it with the assets and limitations you have. I don't see a problem with someone who only has two weeks vacation a year accomplishing this, they just need to approach it a bit different than those who can spend all kinds of time there.
It's all about risk assessment. Sure, it's not impossible for one-week wonders to do it but it increases the risks astronomically. A typical scenario would be a failed K1 or a GCG/DV train wreck.
At least in Schegen Europe these guys with limited vacations can bring the girl over for 6 months out of every year. And "limited" in Europe usually means at least 4 weeks of vacation. A lot of us have 5 or 6 weeks; if you include public holidays, it's not that uncommon to have 7 or 8 weeks to play with.
For the average American, it would take several years of their vacation just to have a month or two with their prospective wives. But of course we know that doesn't happen, instead you have failed K1's and marriages of strangers.
As far as that honesty thing, I have to agree with Ken, you need to tell her most everything but not before you meet. I think dating is getting to know each other and as you get to know each other you can find out more about your lives. Frankly I never wanted to know everything. I would want to know the person I am marrying but never felt I needed to know every detail about everything that happened.
I think at least some women would agree with you but some certainly wouldn't; my wife would not have met with me if she thought I was going to visit others during my trip. And if you knew that a woman you were going to visit felt the same way would you deliberately withhold information from her because, "you choose not to share every intimate detail with a woman before you've met"? If so, you're limiting her to an uninformed choice and lying by omission.
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The thread is about whether men should seek advice from RWD. VO vs VM is an issue, and I find this RWD advice very appropriate:
Gator: You are touching on something I’ve observed over a number of years. Far too many WM are trying to implant (almost dictate) their “dating” philosophy on RW and from my observations they will be pushing sch!t up hill for a long time because……………
Again, from my observations past and present (including within the last 6 months on the ground in 4 different Russian locations) for the most part if a RW decides / agrees to “go out” (date if you like) a guy, RM or WM, she sees him as the (not A but the) present marriage prospect until proven otherwise.
We all have choices and requirements and I understand the need for some men to line up a bunch of women "just in case" but it's incredibly narrow minded not to accept that some women do not want to be one of many and want the choice not to be.
And when she does ask if you are writing/meeting other women? As you sow so shall you reap.
Caveat: Some RW are doing the same and don't tell you. They might have a RM boyfriend, f_____buddy, or sponsor. They might be writing other foreigneres. They might have already met another foreigner whom they are interesed in but he/she is not ready yet to commit. I know of instances of each of these.
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My guess is that the majority of train wrecks occur just because these guys did not spend enough time with their prospective wives.
That and the fact that they were usually blinded by lust and fantasy (their own or the MOB myths) and discounted all the evidence that should have sent them fleeing in the first week as "cultural"...
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Caveat: Some RW are doing the same and don't tell you. They might have a RM boyfriend, f_____buddy, or sponsor...
So, they deserve a man who keep a bunch of women as a reserve (на черный день as we say in Russia) :D
A decent woman deserves and expects an elementary decency from a man :)
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SJ,
First let me say that I do not agree that choosing not to share certain details of your life with a new acquaintance is a lie of any sort. There is no obligation IMO that anyone bare their soul prior to having even met. The only "obligation" is to offer enough information as the couple deem mutually necessary to share some time together to explore the possibilities of developing a future relationship. I can appreciate that some women would demand to be exclusive from first eye to eye meeting. I happen to be of the opinion that to pledge exclusivity to a woman you have never yet met is foolish at best. If a woman would insist on an exclusive arrangement from the first date, I would pass on meeting her.
Any relationship is an evolution of emotions and knowledge of each other. Just as I would never profess love for a woman before meeting her, I do not feel obligated to provide every detail of my life either. Some women, you and GQ believe that it is mandatory to begin every relationship with full disclosure of ones dating status while I and others do not. We need to agree to disagree. It is a personal choice of when in any relationship certain information will be shared or not shared.
KenC
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Has nothing to do with whether what you say is liked or not.
Rather, much of what you say is simply irrelevant to the average poster here who is facing an entirely different situation.
Your comments about married life with a FSUW are very relevant.
Your comments about getting to the married stage are not; because you faced a much different environment.
My view on this extends to several other posters here such as Misha and others whom I don't quite remember right now. You, Misha and these others simply faced an entirely different environment than the vast majority of the posters here.
The comments from your group show an almost complete lack of reality (with respect to helpfulness to the other men) similar to those espoused by Marie Antoinette.
Mars,
You do have an interesting discussion point with your views that would be worth following up on IMHO. Suggest you post a new topic and I'll meet you there instead of complicating this one. Misha and others might also want to join in.
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ON THE LEVEL? WTF is not on the level about choosing NOT to share every intimate detail of your life before you meet a woman? Get real dude. I guess I am not so desperate to submit to an anal exam prior to getting involved with a woman like you seem to suggest is the only way to be "on the level." Your attitude that there is something devious about not sharing every detail prior to having a relationship is total BS.
All in due time dude. A relationship is a journey not a destination. You share more and more things as their relationship progresses. A new acquaintance does not need to know every detail of your life in the beginning or in this case even before the real relationship begins. :cluebat:
No, it isn't any of my or her business in the beginning stages of a relationship. The only thing that is important is to know you enjoy each others company. Period. Where the relationship leads you will determine what and how much you each want to voluntarily divulge.Oh, so you required a sexual history and a current STD test before you met your wife? I must of missed that part of your trip report.
More BS from you! I see no conflict in the two different scenarios at all. I would never volunteer the information that I would be meeting other women. I do not see this as a devious practice in any way. It is simply not relevant to the first meeting. I am not so desperate for any woman to offer up the details in order to meet her. If a woman rudely persists to demand such information, I would not lie to her, but I would seriously consider not meeting her as this action would tend to be a warning sign for her insecurity or controlling nature. To think that the man OWES a detailed explanation of his personal life in order to meet a woman is ridiculous and a sure sign of one desperate man.
KenC
Touchy, touchy Ken. Get a grip. Again, sharing a part of an obvious segment in dating IS NOT an act of IDENTITY theft. LOL. You need to step off the puter and start socializing again, man. You're getting waaaay too dramatic these days.
You are trying so hard to disown that little BS you stated above (statement #1 for clarity) by appearing to be a big bad wolf (Grrrrr) and now thumping your chest growling - 'Hey, it's my life...blah, blah, blah!!!'. OK, dude, I get the point - you can neatly disown the first statement. LOL.
Sexual history, anal exam, attitude, BS....Ken, LOL, how long has it been since you entered the the fight or flight zone? Get a grip, dawg. I made a statement NOT directed at you, you came to disagree with me. I pointed at that maybe you misunderstood what I said and reiterated that in my response to you. Since then you've been blowing smoke up the kazoo, dude.
'Oh, I'll tell her, Oh, It's my life!, Oh! in due time!' 'Oh! It's private! - I get where you comin' from bro. You think it's confusing on your side, LOL....and you say I'm being pissy.
For RWs reading this, this is what AWs see at home, you don't - yet. Get your stickies and note it.
For you guys out there: If you are not comfortable going to FSU dating one woman, fine. No one is asking you to do so. Matter of fact, if you don't like to participate in any of this - don't. If you find comfort in dating as many as you can during your trip, tell each one of them that that is what you want to do. If they don't like it, fine. Trust me, RWs didn't crawl out of the Arctic cave someplace - there's a better than a good chance they are far more social savvy than most men who steps off the FSU tarmac - so there will be women who'll appreciate your honesty and would even agree with you. How bad can that be, right?
Contrary to the popular consensus of the experts here - it isn't akin to giving your life's secret, nor is it the same as an invasion of your privacy. Russian women simply wants to know a very simple, basic, or as Olga said - ELEMENTARY - segment of their association with you. That is never equal to asking you for the PIN on your ATM cards. LOL.
Yes, there's a good probabilty you'll have women not wanting to be a part of your trip if you are seeing other women. That's OK. It's their right to do so and wish them well. That is far easier to do than deceiving them into believing something otherwise.
One more note: Walking into an agency, sitting down with the agency's menu is NOT dating. That would be like going to a restaurant in Russia by yourself and you can't read cyrillic and the waitress don't speak English, so you're left having to rely on pointing at pictures of food so you can eat.
If you find yourself in this situation, please one advice to you - date as many as you can at home - first. Undertsand how to properly associate with the opposite sex before trying to marry a foreign woman - let alone one who can't speak your language. It will make a whole lot of things easier in your life.
Disclaimer: I am married but to only ONE Russian woman. I know, met, dated, associate with some Russian / Ukrainian women. By no stretch of the imagination do I consider myself an expert, or make claims as such, of all things FSU, it's women, it's culture, it's history, etc...take what I say in this hall with a grain of salt. There are OVERLORDS in these boards dealing with Russian women 101 Know them and know them well. :rolleyes2:
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Some women, you and GQ believe that it is mandatory to begin every relationship with full disclosure of ones dating status while I and others do not. We need to agree to disagree. It is a personal choice of when in any relationship certain information will be shared or not shared.
KenC
Ken,
Of course it is personal choice :) But as for me, with my respect to your believes, I would prefer a man to be honest about his dating status. If his is married or has a girlfriend I would appreciate his honesty at the very beginning. If he being in international dating says that he would like to visit me I also would appreciate he would tell me honestly that I'm not only woman in his list to visit and let me decide to participate or not, and probably my decision would depend on my level of interest in that man :) I just believe that even very beginning of relationship should start with mutual elementary honesty and ethics.
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It seem to me the best way to answer this for a mans wanting to know the probables of being politely decline an invitation when seeing many womans in a visit is to ask all the RW woamns here what they would do. Not necessary what they did in time past but what they would do today.
If they is enough answer then there will be a small and maybe not accurate guide to what a mans can expect as a percentage who will see him and who will not.
It is only my thought but as there RW womans here who can answer then it may provide an answer to the mans?
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It's weird to see big words like "elementary decency" and "ethics" thrown around to describe a simple situation of non-exclusive dating. I understand we are not talking about a married man or man who has a girlfriend going on dates with other ladies and not telling them about his status?
As for going out on coffee dates with multiple ladies and expecting them not to pry, where's the non-decency and non-ethics? Seems perfectly normal to me. I wouldn't expect the man to cater to my insecurities and disclose all his dating arrangements at the very first meeting.
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It's weird to see big words like "elementary decency" and "ethics" thrown around to describe a simple situation of non-exclusive dating. I understand we are not talking about a married man or man who has a girlfriend going on dates with other ladies and not telling them about his status?
No, Blues Fairy, it is not just big words thrown around it is just a life that is not just white and black, but life with many different colors and different situations.
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No, Blues Fairy, it is not just big words thrown around it is just a life that is not just white and black, but life with many different colors and different situations.
All the more reason not to be overly moralistic about the grey shades and try to paint them blackest black on every occasion.
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Some quick comments, experiences, observations...
I've never had a Russian woman I met online ask me if I was going to meet (or if I was currently meeting with) other women. The subject has just never come up, so unless you're dealing with someone really insecure or possessive, I think the principal argument here is a non issue.
I have been accused of being able to meet other women by two women from Moscow I found through Elena's Models. One explained it to me quite well. Since I was already in Moscow, had friends there and understood some Russian, I could easily meet other women (competition) and she wouldn't be able to control me or lead me around. I passed on meeting these two.
I have had a few women during a first meeting (either a date or at a club) ask me if I was married or with a serious girlfriend. Apparently if I did it wouldn't be a problem.
I don't see dating as much different in Russia than anywhere else. Some couples date seriously and marry quickly. Some date seriously for years. Some live together. Some don't. Some date casually. Some line up a string of one night stands. Some have sponsors. Some have ongoing affairs.
From what I've seen there are more sponsor type relationships and even in normal relationships a man spends more money on a woman than back in the US (more gifts, more expensive gifts and going dutch is rare). I'd also say there might be more extramarital affairs, but maybe Russians are just more open about them than in the US.
There are definitely women on bridal sites that are lining up meetings with several foreign men, still dating back home or even still married. I know of a few right now that are trying to plan romantic trips with me (unsuccessfully, I'm too busy) while hooking up meetings (probably 'exclusive' ones) with guys that are getting ready to get on that plane. Maybe some of you out there?
Anyways, I vote for no deception and no need to promise exclusivity before a first meeting.
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All the more reason not to be overly moralistic about the grey shades and try to paint them blackest black on every occasion.
There is nothing moralistic in my words. If you have found something moralistic it is just your own perception that doesn't mean to be right.
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There is nothing moralistic in my words. If you have found something moralistic it is just your own perception that doesn't mean to be right.
Yes, yes, I know there's no such thing as "overly moralistic" for you (when you're on your high horse). :D
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Yes, yes, I know there's no such thing as "overly moralistic" for you (when you're on your high horse). :D
Blues Fairy, you have labeled me in different ways during our "debates" and "on your high horse" is not a new :) I already have said feel free to continue, you are just an impersonal poster as you have said and you have the same attitude towards other people here. :)
Of course you perceive my understanding of morals and ethics as "overly moralistic" and nothing surprising about it. May be because there is some of your lack of understanding of elementary morals and ethics when even your "advice" and "opinions" contain personal insults :)
Sure, you will perceive my words as "overly moralistic", but it is OK with me :)
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May be because there is some of your lack of understanding of elementary morals and ethics
"On a high horse" is not a label, Olga, it's an expression describing a self-righteous attitude, such as using judgmental moralizing statements (labels) similar to the one quoted above.
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"On a high horse" is not a label, Olga, it's an expression describing a self-righteous attitude, such as using judgmental moralizing statements (labels) similar to the one quoted above.
That's fine.
While you reserve your rights to call people "idiots", "handicapped", "liberal crowd with white rhinos" and so on because of a difference in opinions I don't expect from you you to understand what I'm talking about :)
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I've never had a Russian woman I met online ask me if I was going to meet (or if I was currently meeting with) other women. The subject has just never come up, so unless you're dealing with someone really insecure or possessive, I think the principal argument here is a non issue.
Again our experiences differ. All of this reminds me of the parable about blind men describing an elephant. Collectively as members of RWD we may get the full picture.
I estimate 50% asked me. Why me and not you? My guess is that our meetings differed as well as the length of our correspondence. I would typically plan to spend 1-4 days with a woman in her city and not meet another woman while in her city. So maybe she wanted to know a lot more before committing so much of her time (take off from work, etc.).
One week I tried the meeting with many for coffee and cake routine via a full-service agency. Not one woman asked. They knew.
I passed on meeting these two.
So would I. Sounds too controlling.
I have had a few women during a first meeting (either a date or at a club) ask me if I was married or with a serious girlfriend. Apparently if I did it wouldn't be a problem.
They maybe perceived you as a player and wanted to play?
I don't see dating as much different in Russia than anywhere else.
Contrary to what I/O and I observed? Are your observations primarily made with Moscow women who are indeed more like Big City AW?
From what I've seen there are more sponsor type relationships....
For certain "more." I would say "far more" than in the US.
There are definitely women on bridal sites that are lining up meetings with several foreign men, still dating back home or even still married. I know of a few right now that are trying to plan romantic trips with me (unsuccessfully, I'm too busy) while hooking up meetings (probably 'exclusive' ones) with guys that are getting ready to get on that plane. Maybe some of you out there?
I am not a hypocrite so if this were true it was none of my business unless I became seriously interested after meeting her.
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even in normal relationships a man spends more money on a woman than back in the US (more gifts, more expensive gifts and going dutch is rare)
Not my experience, but the last time I brought this up in another forum I was portrayed as living on the street with my wife ready to leave at any second ;D But, for the record, I will point out that my wife and I celebrated our third wedding anniversary last month and she isn't packing her bags just yet :)
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my wife and I celebrated our third wedding anniversary last month :)
Misha,
Congratulations to both of you, all the best and many more happy years together!
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Misha,
Congratulations to both of you, all the best and many more happy years together!
Спасибо большое!
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I will point out that my wife and I celebrated our third wedding anniversary last month and she isn't packing her bags just yet :)
What.... no packed bags test??? LOL
Sincerely, Congrats! Misha and Mrs.
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All of this reminds me of the parable about blind men describing an elephant.
Ah ha and so it is.
Collectively as members of RWD we may get the full picture.
I very much doubt that but it is at least a wider picture than otherwise might be seen.
Gator: Age old story, some get it and some don’t because they don’t want to. There is more emotive BS in this thread than I have seen for quite some time. The reality is (not limited to) these.
EVERY available woman will be happy to meet a guy who is only meeting her.
SOME available women will meet a guy who is meeting many.
Which provides the greater number of choices? No brainer isn’t it. The only remaining question then is does the punter have the time and money to sort out those greater number of choices.
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Caveat: Some RW are doing the same and don't tell you. They might have a RM boyfriend, f_____buddy, or sponsor.
All women who are interested in finding a foreign boyfriend normally have very strong allergy to local guys.
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Why me and not you?
Probably different reasons in different situations. Many women I've met through non-bridal sites and set up casual first dates. Other women I had long correspondences with and flew out to visit only them. I guess they assumed that if I'm visiting for 5 days to 3 weeks, as I did, that I'm coming just to see them, but they never did ask.
I think the main difference is meeting women who were not accustomed to the 'bride business'. The first time I met a long distance pen pal was about 20 years ago. Since then I've met many women through writing first, in the US, Europe and in Russia. In normal dating this just isn't something that comes up. In meeting someone that you clicked with in letters, they figure your main goal is to meet them which is true. 'Bride hunting' is different in this respect. Women presenting themselves as brides, especially those who have already met men through agencies, know that a man's main goal is to land a bride, not just to meet them. That gives them more reason to ask if you plan to meet others or demand exclusivity to clear out their competition.
Are your observations primarily made with Moscow women who are indeed more like Big City AW?
No, mostly in Novosibirsk, partly in other cities including Moscow, Tomsk, Omsk and Izhevsk.
If you observed that women might be looking abroad but still have a serious or non-serious boyfriend, sponsor or f-buddy back home, clearly not all women that you've met are dating with marriage on their mind either.
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EVERY available woman will be happy to meet a guy who is only meeting her.
SOME available women will meet a guy who is meeting many.
Which provides the greater number of choices? No brainer isn’t it. The only remaining question then is does the punter have the time and money to sort out those greater number of choices.
I/O,
Funny proposition you pose here. Let's do the math. If it costs a man one week vacation time and $3K (American) per visit:
Meeting 10 women per trip equals about one day and $300 per woman
Meeting 1 woman per trip equals 10 days and $3,000 per woman.
Using this math guy #1 could meet 100 women at the same cost per lady OR
It would cost guy #2 $30,000 and 100 days to meet the same number of women as #1
OR
guy #1 could meet 10 women as stated above, meet one woman that interests him in his face to face meetings (better selecting in person, eh?) and go visit HER 9 TIMES to equal time and money it would take #2 to meet 10 women.
OR (more practically)
Guy #1 could meet one woman as above and spend 3 weeks of vacation time with her for the same as it would take #2 guy to meet 3 women and still not yet know much about her, if by chance he meets Mrs. Right in only 3 tries.
HMMM? :selfharm:
And I forget, how many women can one man marry at a time? :noidea: Oh, yeah, one. I have little doubt that a man can fill his dance card if only some of the women would "submit" to meeting him. And I would contend that "some" would translate into the "majority" under the right conditions.
KenC
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Not my experience, but the last time I brought this up in another forum I was portrayed as living on the street with my wife ready to leave at any second.
Well, there are all kinds of women, of course, but walk around the downtown of any major Russian city and the materialism should be obvious. I do know of far more relationships here than back home where the man spoils his lady, and these aren't strictly sponsor relationships.
No matter, there are plenty of women that don't require being spoiled, but few that don't expect you to foot the bill on a date.
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Well, there are all kinds of women, of course, but walk around the downtown of any major Russian city and the materialism should be obvious.
Precisely the type of women I avoided.
No matter, there are plenty of women that don't require being spoiled, but few that don't expect you to foot the bill on a date.
True, but most of the time while dating my wife, we simply ate at her place with her family. We would go to the market, buy vegetables or pelmeni or other foods and simply go to her home for tea. Nothing fancy, no large sums of money being spent. Just the two of us spending quality time together.
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Yes, we always say this. "You are only the second, honey... :-*'
(... and only because the first was an ex-husband. Who was in between is absolutely doesn't matter :P)
Or how many lovers she had during the marriage. Spoke to a woman today who told me she cheated on several of her boyfriends. She seemed to be ok with that because she always told them about it. She also stated that she would be 100% commited to her future husband. Hmmm, makes one wonder.
Was it Daveman who posted "Every Russian women will tell you they have had only two lovers? :)
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Well, there are all kinds of women, of course, but walk around the downtown of any major Russian city and the materialism should be obvious. I do know of far more relationships here than back home where the man spoils his lady, and these aren't strictly sponsor relationships.
I was recently advised by a lady friend in Moscow that I should spend far more on gifts for my lady than I currently do. She said Russian men are known to shower their ladies with gifts and recommended I do the same if I want to keep her interested.
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Or how many lovers she had during the marriage. Spoke to a woman today who told me she cheated on several of her boyfriends. She seemed to be ok with that because she always told them about it. She also stated that she would be 100% commited to her future husband. Hmmm, makes one wonder.
Me too. But I don't think this behavior is common here, most try to be honest to a partner. Not like this one 8)
Was it Daveman who posted "Every Russian women will tell you they have had only two lovers? :)
They believe men are too sensitive creatures to this kind of information. Who of you wouldn't be sensitive? :brightidea: And what is a safe number :P
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I was recently advised by a lady friend in Moscow that I should spend far more on gifts for my lady than I currently do. She said Russian men are known to shower their ladies with gifts and recommended I do the same if I want to keep her interested.
... if this is the only merit you have... :-\
A normal girl wouldn't feel right to accept gifts from somebody she is not interested in.
And I would change gifts for flowers, flowers, flowers. This is touchy.
Hey, married guys, when did you give flowers to your wife for the last time?
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She said Russian men are known to shower their ladies with gifts and recommended I do the same if I want to keep her interested.
Well, if the only thing that would have kept my wife interested in me was gifts, I would have told her to go find herself a Russian man to shower her with gifts if that was all that she wanted ;D
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Hey, married guys, when did you give flowers to your wife for the last time?
Last week.
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... if this is the only merit you have... :-\
fortunately... it's not ;)
And I would change gifts for flowers, flowers, flowers. This is touchy.
Why touchy?
(By the way, I just finished ordering flowers to be sent to my girlfriend at work this morning. She loves when I do this at random.)
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Well, if the only thing that would have kept my wife interested in me was gifts, I would have told her to go find herself a Russian man to shower her with gifts if that was all that she wanted ;D
Yeah, this woman is somewhat of a leech. She has even admitted this to me. But I'm sure there are many like her all over the FSU that expect their man to meet certain requirements.
Fortunately, I found a woman who isn't like this. She is quite happy with the love that I give to her and the modest gifts I present.
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But I'm sure there are many like her all over the FSU that expect their man to meet certain requirements.
Of course, and the men are also free to move on :)
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I would contend that "some" would translate into the "majority" under the right conditions.
KenC
IMO, that "majority" which "some" would convert to under the "right conditions" (Joys Ken, how many hoops do you want to jump through to hang onto a slim point) is likely to exclude the "best". >:(
And....................Did it occur that some people don't give a damn about the cost because they are not (Never were) on a "wife hunt" as such?
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is likely to exclude the "best"
Another way is to use only agencies. :P
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Me too. But I don't think this behavior is common here, most try to be honest to a partner. Not like this one 8)
They believe men are too sensitive creatures to this kind of information. Who of you wouldn't be sensitive? :brightidea: And what is a safe number :P
She was honest with them. She told them about it right after it happened and also that the relationship is over.
A safe number is the one that the listener wants to hear...
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Hey, married guys, when did you give flowers to your wife for the last time?
A little less than 3 weeks ago.
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They believe men are too sensitive creatures to this kind of information. Who of you wouldn't be sensitive? :brightidea: And what is a safe number :P
a) It is none of our business and b) what difference does it make if it is 3 or 23?
What is most important is what happens in the future.
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If you observed that women might be looking abroad but still have a serious or non-serious boyfriend, sponsor or f-buddy back home, clearly not all women that you've met are dating with marriage on their mind either.
Yeah, contrary to my intentions.
I had a good meeting with one RW and I called her the next day to confirm the place for our next meeting. A man answered in one of those deep bearlike voices that RM use when confrontational. Thinking he her father, I asked for Natasha. He went ballistic. Natasha called a few minutes later and said in a meek voice, "I no meet." He had to be a RM boyfriend.
From dating a number of single moms years ago, I surmised that many had some sort of sugar daddy to help out with expenses. They were serious about marriage yet towards the desperate side of the scale.
The f______buddy was a pure guess as this RW clearly could not go a long time without being pleasured. Maybe he was Albert. ;) Too much for an old man like me.
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SJ,
First let me say that I do not agree that choosing not to share certain details of your life with a new acquaintance is a lie of any sort. There is no obligation IMO that anyone bare their soul prior to having even met. The only "obligation" is to offer enough information as the couple deem mutually necessary to share some time together to explore the possibilities of developing a future relationship. I can appreciate that some women would demand to be exclusive from first eye to eye meeting. I happen to be of the opinion that to pledge exclusivity to a woman you have never yet met is foolish at best. If a woman would insist on an exclusive arrangement from the first date, I would pass on meeting her.
You do like to be melodramatic don't you? We're not talking about soul baring and intimate personal details here, just basic honesty to allow your date(s) to make an informed choice. And we are also not talking about a lifelong monogamous commitment before you meet either.
Any relationship is an evolution of emotions and knowledge of each other. Just as I would never profess love for a woman before meeting her, I do not feel obligated to provide every detail of my life either. Some women, you and GQ believe that it is mandatory to begin every relationship with full disclosure of ones dating status while I and others do not. We need to agree to disagree. It is a personal choice of when in any relationship certain information will be shared or not shared.
KenC
No, we do not believe that "it is mandatory to begin every relationship with full disclosure of ones dating status" unless by that you mean, "you are single and not seeing/writing to anyone else". Instead of agreeing to disagree maybe you could clam down a little and try to understand what is being said.
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Is it a good idea for men in international relationships to seek advice on relationships from the members of RWD?
I ask this in wake of the numerous relationship failures by members of this forum. I suspect there are more but they have not surfaced yet. Sometimes you can sense it by the way they post.
Does this forum need to be giving advice on relationships? Yes and No.
Some members have a good understanding of how it works. Others do not.
Coming in late but absorb the good advice and discard the bad. If a guy is married, it does not mean he has all the answers, if the guy got a divorce, it does not mean he lacks wisdom. You can judge a man by his actions and certain results in his life but in a marriage there are two people with a say on if it's going to happen or not.
Someone once told me to be careful who you search for on the internet, there are a lot of crazy people there. I replied those crazy people exist in real life too. Broken relationship don't only exist here on the internet at this forum. Whether or not someone ask for relationship advice on this forum or real life, they still need to sort out the sound advice from the advice that will further hurt his or her relationship.
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Hello,
Certainly, the advice given here can only increase your knowledge base and help you in making your own decisions. The experiences of others can be both wide ranging at times yet so specific to your own question that it can't be ignored.
I'm new here as you can see but have lived in Kiev for over 3 years and can contribute in my own way to the collective wisdom. People are of course free to ignore any and all advice but at least read it.
Kievman
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We are discussing if we should tell a woman we are meeting for the first time that we are meeting with other women on the same trip we are meeting them! One thought that comes to my mind is, how many of us ask the woman if she is corresponding and meeting with other men before our first meeting? I have a feeling it is very rare for the men to do that. I rarely asked anyone. I always assumed they were and felt usually that it was proper.
My wife and I discussed this before we met for the first time. As I recall it just sort of came up in conversation.
I would say that at most 25 percent of the women I met asked me. I was always honest if they asked but to me if they want to know they should ask. If they didn't ask I saw no reason to share that information and I can't see that in doing so I was being deceptive. I always felt they assumed I was.
To me it seems that there is a time to search hard for the right woman and a time to be exclusive with her and in many cases the first needs to come before the second.
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We are discussing if we should tell a woman we are meeting for the first time that we are meeting with other women on the same trip we are meeting them! One thought that comes to my mind is, how many of us ask the woman if she is corresponding and meeting with other men before our first meeting? I have a feeling it is very rare for the men to do that. I rarely asked anyone. I always assumed they were and felt usually that it was proper.
My wife and I discussed this before we met for the first time. As I recall it just sort of came up in conversation.
I would say that at most 25 percent of the women I met asked me. I was always honest if they asked but to me if they want to know they should ask. If they didn't ask I saw no reason to share that information and I can't see that in doing so I was being deceptive. I always felt they assumed I was.
To me it seems that there is a time to search hard for the right woman and a time to be exclusive with her and in many cases the first needs to come before the second.
Yes, I asked and I also told her that until I knew if she and I were going to work out I would be exclusive with her and yes, this was before we met.
Some guys will think this is silly but I had no plan on spending 6+ months twiddling my thumbs before we met and she wasn't a "MOB agency girl" either. If she had been or if I couldn't have visited for an extended length of time things might have been different. Having said that, I probably wouldn't have visited an "agency girl" in the first place and I doubt I would have visited if I were limited to a 6+ months between trips.
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SJ, You have me curious how many women you had to go through to meet your wife?
My point in asking is if someone met their wife as one of the first women they met thay might be more oriented towards a WOVO and not to meeting a lot of women trying to find the right one. In which case being more open and volunteering information that she was the only one you were meeting might make more sense. I don't believe in being dishonest in any way but I never felt a need to volunteer that information if they didn't ask and never felt it was being deceptive in not disclosing that if they didn't ask. If a woman asked I was quite open about what I was doing.
My wife and I did discuss things and I really went to meet her with the hopes that she was going to be the one. I had enough first meetings with women who I thought were going to be the one that I was hesitant to commit before a first meeting. For my general search before meeting her I had stopped writing to any new women. I had stopped writing to most of the women who were so so in my feelings that they could be the right one. I had a couple that I told her I would maintain communication with until our meeting and if it went well would stop writing at that time which is what I did. I did omit telling her one thing and that was that I was going on one of Jack's tours with my son mainly in the hopes that my sone would find a good woman. I really planned just to go through the motions on the tour and my first trip to meet my wife was scheduled for two weeks later. Of course I was posting a TR on RWD and did not know she was reading RWD at the time so I didn't do a very good job of hiding it from her. My reason for not being open about it was not to worry her and because I felt she was so special and the woman I wanted to end up with and did not want her to worry or to be upset with me. It could have been a real disaster and I guess the moral to that might be that it is better never to lie or to hide things.
In my early days of my searching I made lots of trips, took lots of big agency tours and wrote stacks of snail mail letters and met very few women who were really sincere. I made a number of trips to visit one woman and rarely had it work out. I always seemed to end up with women who were scammers, serial daters, a few who were borderline crazy or just no chemistry. When you waste a lot of trips doing a WOVO seems much less productive. I always liked to spend enough time with a woman to get to know them but always tried to meet 3-4 women per trip. Most never asked if I was meeting others. If they did ask I told them and never had any that were not willing to meet me because of it.
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SJ, You have me curious how many women you had to go through to meet your wife?
Well, I guess I have to ask you to define "had to go through" and from when do we start counting exactly and do we count all women, all Russian women or just all foreign women or maybe all women met through the medium of the internet?
If you mean how many Russian women I had to go to Russia to meet in person before I finally met my wife, I'd have to say none as she was the first Russian woman in Russia (FWIW, my ex-wife was the first Norwegian woman I'd ever dated too). However, if you mean how many women in total I had to talk to, mail, meet, and sometimes have relationships with in total I'd have to say I've lost count. And yes, I've had several disasters in my time where I thought we were a perfect match while talking on the net only for it to fall flat when we met face to face so I know how it can be to have high expectations dashed.
Even so, I still prefer the "invest more effort communicating with one beforehand" WOVO approach rather than the blunderbuss WMVM method; I honestly believe that if you are careful selecting the "one" and quickly move on when you find that they aren't compatible, you can increase your chances rather than taking pot luck with a bunch of women you've hardly spent any time communicating with. Of course, you could always try the investment with many at the same time but to be honest, I've never been able to focus deeply on more than one woman at a time. These principles are the same whether the women live in the same city or are in deepest Siberia.
The WOVO is a little misnomer anyway. These days, with a laptop, a mobile phone and a little cash in your pocket there would be no reason why someone couldn't find and meet another woman while there if the woman he goes to visit turns out to be incompatible.
FWIW, if someone thinks that what they are doing is totally okay, I see no reason not to volunteer the information to the women they will meet. But we both know that the only reason to hide it would be because they knew there was a chance that the women would not like it, and what does that say about the man?
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Had to keep my eyes open and open my mouth at the right moment.
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FWIW, if someone thinks that what they are doing is totally okay, I see no reason not to volunteer the information to the women they will meet. But we both know that the only reason to hide it would be because they knew there was a chance that the women would not like it, and what does that say about the man?
SJ,
That he has a different opinion than you? Seriously, you appear to be a one woman at a time man, and that is great for you. I also consider the fact that you live much closer to the fsu than most of us with much less less expense involved. I would compare it to dating a woman a few states away here. All very doable and I have done that too.
I don't think there is anything nefarious about going to meet multiple women that you have made contact with via the Net as long as no promises are made other than to meet and see what happens. I think all the hub bub in this thread is a bit silly really. It all boils down to when the guy is going to refine his desires down to a single lady. You and others believe it is better to zero in on one main target before traveling to the fsu. Great for you! I am of the opinion that refining my interest in one woman would be better done in person face to face. I also believe that I am not obligated to divulge very much to a woman that I plan to meet in a very casual setting without any further expectations other than to have the casual meeting to see if there is a future mutual interest in each other.
To throw more gas on this fire, I will also say that I see no harm in dating multiple women even on the second or third trip. But if a man is going to continue down the road of nonexclusive dating, I agree that he has an obligation to explain to each woman that they are not exclusive because of the possibilities of heightened expectations.
KenC
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Why touchy?
Ooops. My spelling. Should be "touching". 8)
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To throw more gas on this fire, I will also say that I see no harm in dating multiple women even on the second or third trip. But if a man is going to continue down the road of nonexclusive dating, I agree that he has an obligation to explain to each woman that they are not exclusive because of the possibilities of heightened expectations.
KenC
Can't argue with that.. I've 'two timed' enough in the past to learn my lesson..
What's that FSU saying "Chase after two rabbits and you won't catch one" or something similar..
But if you must, go right ahead and learn.
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What's that FSU saying "Chase after two rabbits and you won't catch one" or something similar..
It goes very well with VO & VM discussions.
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The first question never addressed in these debates is which method is actually, in a numbers for numbers calculation, more successful? The second question is what percentage of either is successful. The VO guys tout their success and justifiably so, but they don’t tell how many “clanger” trips for the final so called success trip if they reach that stage and I don’t think very many do.
The VM guys beat their chests and tell us how “right” the idea is but very carefully, like the VO guys, avoid telling how many “clanger” trips they make. There are generally dismissive throw away lines which lack substance tossed in from both sides. The erroneous assumption is the VM method will eventually bring the mandatory success. Ain’t so.
The premise of the VO guys is the VM are ALL being deceptive which is crap if it is handled well. The downside is most don’t handle it well and most women are not that thrilled about the idea.
The premise of the VM guys is nothing serious can be developed before face to face contact which is an equal load of crap, if not more so than the argument of the VO guys. Pen friends meeting and marrying has been happening since long before any of our time. My parents being a case in point. Most of us would kill for the wonderful marriage they have held for 52 years and they will BOTH tell you they met with affair amount of anticipation. It certainly wasn’t any casual, let’s see if we like the colour of your eyes type meeting.
The VO guys for the most part are not comfortable juggling a number of women. I’ll address this personally and say I fit that group. Nevertheless, I have done it both at home and abroad many many times. At one point, I spent 6 months travelling and met new women every second day. Fun but futile if you look at it in the scheme of searching for a life partner which I was certainly not at that point. I have found that it always lead, at some point to my having to be less honest or more brutal than I would like, but that’s me. I don’t think you have to be particularly clever to fly the VM kite but I do think you need to be a particular personality.
The VM guys, from what I see in many of their posts in these types of threads are not capable of or patient enough to dig down well in letters etc. It is simply their personality. They can’t and or are not inclined to do so.
Cost efficiency is argued by one side whilst integrity is argued by the other and in case anyone hadn’t noticed (I’m sure they have), there is no real evidence to support either side of the argument. Some speculation and opinion. Therefore it all comes down to “pick your poison”.
Two points I can see is the VO guys need to acknowledge they can’t always get this right first up and the VM guys need to understand no matter how well they think they can disguise their other meetings, the women know.
Back to the original question, should guys seek advice here, IMO yes, however, if this thread were to be an example, the advice is very badly presented on both sides of this equation.
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I/O,
The VO vs VM discussion has moved primarily to another thread in this same section, but here is my last post minus any chest thumping:
"How" you first meet matters not, but that you met the "right" person for YOU.
We all start with a blank slate and as I said before are open to communication with many others. How everyone weeds through their possibilities is up to them. But we ALL do weed through them at some point in time.
The "VO" people seem to think that the weeding should be done prior to traveling to the fsu and actually meeting face to face. While the "VM" see an advantage of weeding through the possibilities face to face. Whichever strategy one chooses is great if they find the right one. The relationship is either half baked beforehand with an extended correspondence prior to meeting or it is developed after meeting face to face. Where I think some people get their nose out of joint is if there is an extended correspondence to multiple women. I would not think highly of anyone that would purposefully mislead many women into thinking they are their one and only.
KenC
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Can't argue with that.. I've 'two timed' enough in the past to learn my lesson..
What's that FSU saying "Chase after two rabbits and you won't catch one" or something similar..
But if you must, go right ahead and learn.
Here ya go BC,
If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one. [Russian, Za dvumya zaitsami pogonish'sya, ne odnogo ne poimaesh'.]
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The first question never addressed in these debates is which method is actually, in a numbers for numbers calculation, more successful? The second question is what percentage of either is successful. The VO guys tout their success and justifiably so, but they don’t tell how many “clanger” trips for the final so called success trip if they reach that stage and I don’t think very many do.
The VM guys beat their chests and tell us how “right” the idea is but very carefully, like the VO guys, avoid telling how many “clanger” trips they make. There are generally dismissive throw away lines which lack substance tossed in from both sides. The erroneous assumption is the VM method will eventually bring the mandatory success. Ain’t so.
The premise of the VO guys is the VM are ALL being deceptive which is crap if it is handled well. The downside is most don’t handle it well and most women are not that thrilled about the idea.
The premise of the VM guys is nothing serious can be developed before face to face contact which is an equal load of crap, if not more so than the argument of the VO guys. Pen friends meeting and marrying has been happening since long before any of our time. My parents being a case in point. Most of us would kill for the wonderful marriage they have held for 52 years and they will BOTH tell you they met with affair amount of anticipation. It certainly wasn’t any casual, let’s see if we like the colour of your eyes type meeting.
The VO guys for the most part are not comfortable juggling a number of women. I’ll address this personally and say I fit that group. Nevertheless, I have done it both at home and abroad many many times. At one point, I spent 6 months travelling and met new women every second day. Fun but futile if you look at it in the scheme of searching for a life partner which I was certainly not at that point. I have found that it always lead, at some point to my having to be less honest or more brutal than I would like, but that’s me. I don’t think you have to be particularly clever to fly the VM kite but I do think you need to be a particular personality.
The VM guys, from what I see in many of their posts in these types of threads are not capable of or patient enough to dig down well in letters etc. It is simply their personality. They can’t and or are not inclined to do so.
Cost efficiency is argued by one side whilst integrity is argued by the other and in case anyone hadn’t noticed (I’m sure they have), there is no real evidence to support either side of the argument. Some speculation and opinion. Therefore it all comes down to “pick your poison”.
Two points I can see is the VO guys need to acknowledge they can’t always get this right first up and the VM guys need to understand no matter how well they think they can disguise their other meetings, the women know.
Back to the original question, should guys seek advice here, IMO yes, however, if this thread were to be an example, the advice is very badly presented on both sides of this equation.
Well, I can't speak for the masses, VO/VM alike, but I was a VM and the none of presumptions you made above never even remotely came under my radar. Also, it matters little to me if there's a 99.9% chance of success that followed those who fell in love and committed to someone they never met in person because it was simply something I can never allow myself to be in.
I was a VM. I went into Russia the very first time for no other reason than to meet a number of women simply for the purpose of affording all of us a chance to meet in person BEFORE we can even determine if this is what any of us want to pursue.
I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating. The only promise I made was I will be travelling to Russia within 3 months' time from when I started my campaign. I gave each one an approximate calendar date when that would be.
In the interim, all I asked the women expressing interest in meeting me is make sure they fully understood, appreciate and willing to go through this. This will be a chance meeting void of any personal committment, promises or any suggestion of personal relations. Friendship was above and foremost. There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia. I encouraged women to explore, date and write to other men when I was asked about my feelings about it.
The geographical extent of the women stretched from Vladivostok to Ukraine. I treated each one of the women with equal dose of attention, appreciation and respect. I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women. Each one received a modest gift and flowers and a congratulatory note from me. Beyond that, all correspondence was well managed to insure it was as impersonal, yet interesting, as we can manage it to be.
When I made my mind up that this was what I was willing to do, I set aside ample resource for the expense. There were no expense made on credit. If I can't afford this without living above my means - I can't afford it.
Throughout this period, I read a lot about FSU, dating customs, travel info, societal and cultural norms,etc... In my doing so, I stumbled upon a message board once called RWG. I spent time speaking with FSU ex-pats living in my neck of the woods and AMs who were experienced in traveling to Russia, or those married to FSUWs and/or those who dated in Russia.
I knew I stood the probability I would lose candidates because of my plan, and I did. But, demanding as it was for me and the women, all things considered I thought it was the fairest, sanest and most beneficial approach that WE can all partake in.
I met these women in Moscow. I decided to stay in a hotel for the simple reason I thought the women coming from out of town will be treated better with the available amenities one can find in hotels. Each one of them had their own room reserved and paid for in their names for the given number of days they were to be in Moscow. I sent each one of them ample travel money for airfare and travel related expense (food, travel to/fro airport, etc..) to get to Moscow. Fortunately, 70% of the women were Moscow residents.
Despite all the tediousness and demands that went behind this plan, I was prepared to come home with the reality that this wasn't a venue available for me to meet someone that can be potentially someone I can 'date'. Had the trip proved to be unsuccessful in terms of meeting anyone to explore any possibilities with, I would've been content knowing I gave it an honest effort and held no bounds in affording all of us a chance. I would've been happy to continue my search/date at home and had my Russian experience be what it all was - an experience..
In the aftermath of that first trip, I followed it up with 4 supporting visits within the year. As an American, we are not afforded the luxury of having prolonged number of days off but I made time. The seriousness of what I was doing in my life, and hers, demanded the time necessary to meet the task I set out to do. IMV, there's no other way to do this than make the necessary time.
In the end, much of this experience is highly subjective. What works for one doesn't necessarily mean will work for another. So all the silly debates about approaches means nothing to the casual observer unless they have a full understanding of who they are and an appreciation of what needs to be done. Every plan is the right plan unless you phuck it up.
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GQ,
And a very impressive plan it was.
:applaud:
I don't remember, but did you meet your wife on this first trip? IIRC, you did.
KenC
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GQ,
And a very impressive plan it was.
I don't remember, but did you meet your wife on this first trip? IIRC, you did.
KenC
Ken, yes. Nat was the second the to last woman I met on that trip. She was the only woman from Novosibirsk that I was writing to, too.
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I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating.
That's what I really appreciate - honesty and openness! :clapping:
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none of presumptions you made above never even remotely came under my radar.
Huh? The only presumption was to point out the futility of this entire discussion because there is no real evidence to support either argument, it all comes down to the individual. ::)
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In the end, much of this experience is highly subjective. What works for one doesn't necessarily mean will work for another. So all the silly debates about approaches means nothing to the casual observer unless they have a full understanding of who they are and an appreciation of what needs to be done. Every plan is the right plan unless you phuck it up.
Great post GQ. Thanks for sharing your story with us new folk. I think your last paragraph pretty well sums up this debate and your own experience sheds light on your POV. Personally, there is no way I would've put forth the effort to fly all those ladies in AND put them all up in hotels for the night. Bravo! I guess I am just a WOVO guy who will never be able to pull off a WMVM (and hopefully will never have to). :)
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Here ya go BC,
If you chase two rabbits, you will not catch either one. [Russian, Za dvumya zaitsami pogonish'sya, ne odnogo ne poimaesh'.]
As a young lad one I heard time and again is "one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" :D
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"one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" :D
if you don't have a cage and extra traps ;D
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I see no good reason for a mans to come all the way to Russia without having identified the woman he truly wants.
I see a great reason for a man to go all the way to Russia even without identifying the woman he truly wants: to have a wonderfully enlightening trip by experiencing all aspects of another country.
why waste the time and money?
Waste? I think visiting another country is not a waste, especially a country with as rich of a history as Russia.
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As a young lad one I heard time and again is "one bird in the hand is better than two in the bush" :D
Most lad's will have the pecker in hand and two bushes in his head..
:-X
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Most lad's will have the pecker in hand and two bushes in his head..
:-X
Heh heh..said in my best Ed McMahon "You are correct sir"
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I was a VM. I went into Russia the very first time for no other reason than to meet a number of women simply for the purpose of affording all of us a chance to meet in person BEFORE we can even determine if this is what any of us want to pursue.
I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating. The only promise I made was I will be travelling to Russia within 3 months' time from when I started my campaign. I gave each one an approximate calendar date when that would be.
In the interim, all I asked the women expressing interest in meeting me is make sure they fully understood, appreciate and willing to go through this. This will be a chance meeting void of any personal committment, promises or any suggestion of personal relations. Friendship was above and foremost. There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia. I encouraged women to explore, date and write to other men when I was asked about my feelings about it.
It's good to see after all the back and forth between GQ and KenC, that they both were in such complete agreement all along :D
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I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women. After the initial letter of interest, I specifically told each one that I plan to travel to Russia for one reason only: to meet women who will be interested in meeting so we can be in a better position to make a decision if there's any continuing interest to then begin any notion of dating. The only promise I made was I will be travelling to Russia within 3 months' time from when I started my campaign. I gave each one an approximate calendar date when that would be.
In the interim, all I asked the women expressing interest in meeting me is make sure they fully understood, appreciate and willing to go through this. This will be a chance meeting void of any personal commitment, promises or any suggestion of personal relations. Friendship was above and foremost. There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia. I encouraged women to explore, date and write to other men when I was asked about my feelings about it.
The geographical extent of the women stretched from Vladivostok to Ukraine. I treated each one of the women with equal dose of attention, appreciation and respect. I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women. Each one received a modest gift and flowers and a congratulatory note from me. Beyond that, all correspondence was well managed to insure it was as impersonal, yet interesting, as we can manage it to be.
When I made my mind up that this was what I was willing to do, I set aside ample resource for the expense. There were no expense made on credit. If I can't afford this without living above my means - I can't afford it.
GQ you are missing your calling as a comedy writer. This is one of the funniest stories I have read in a long time.
But then again, I am not sure if this is meant to be comedy or an application for Sainthood.
In any event, I do not believe a single word of it.
A complete fabrication on your part in an attempt to back up your 'current' comments in this thread on the righteous way to go about this endeavor.
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GQ you are missing your calling as a comedy writer. This is one of the funniest stories I have read in a long time.
But then again, I am not sure if this is meant to be comedy or an application for Sainthood.
In any event, I do not believe a single word of it.
A complete fabrication on your part in an attempt to back up your 'current' comments in this thread on the righteous way to go about this endeavor.
LOL.
Mars, I take great comfort knowing my reality, based on your thoughts in this thread, is diametric to yours. Your disbelief is my source of validation, your doubts - my confidence. Your very presence compliments mine. It was always men like you that made life so sweet for men like me. The more of you, the better for us.
It's good knowing my reality will always be a fantasy for you. Thank you. ;D
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Mars,
If you were participating at RWG when GQ was posting his plans and trip report, you would believe it. Most of us remarked that he was overdoing everything, yet that was his style.
In addition, I met him in Moscow one afternoon during his trip.
All the proof you need is the very lovely bride he found from Siberia.
Each of us is different. Accept it.
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Each of us is different. Accept it.
Brilliantly simple. These words should be placed at the heading of every thread. I’ve always thought any fool can design something complex but it takes a clever mind to design something simple.
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Asked my husband yesterday what he would have thought of a hypothetical woman who, on a first date (on his hypothetical VM trip), asked him if he was visiting other women. He said he would have considered the question legitimate, but "it would have killed the moment". :D This whole "open and honest" VM scenario is too much like a business transaction, in his opinion.
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In addition, I met him in Moscow one afternoon during his trip.
All the proof you need is the very lovely bride he found from Siberia.
Sorry, but I don't get what proof is offered by virtue his lovely bride??
I never voiced any doubt that he found a bride or that she was lovely.
A lovely bride in no way is proof that he actually followed the detailed procedures he posted here; apparently copied verbatim from his Sainthood application.
Even your meeting him offers no proof of the procedures.
I have a beautiful bridge for sale to those who are believers.
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Sorry, but I don't get what proof is offered by virtue his lovely bride??
I never voiced any doubt that he found a bride or that she was lovely.
A lovely bride in no way is proof that he actually followed the detailed procedures he posted here; apparently copied verbatim from his Sainthood application.
Even your meeting him offers no proof of the procedures.
I have a beautiful bridge for sale to those who are believers.
Mars,
You're way off base. Thousands of people read GQ's very detailed trip report including me. And yes, he over did everything as he stated. Now apologise and move on.
KenC
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Bonaparte, (or so you would like to think about yourself, GQ)
I nearly had an upset stomach reading your post about how you were "conquering" Russia. Do you remember what happened to the general from Corsica and his conquering plans?
Your glorifications of your "generosity" and "honesty" (almost made me drop a tear) .... revealed a lot about your character.
Although it has nothing to do with you being a naturalised American of Chinese descend, you do not represent a typical American man, his mentality ,system of values and cosm.
Hopefully, Russian ladies on the list discard your approach to life and cynicism as atypical for American men ( exclusive of Ambach).
Hope, your wife ( with or without the help of her mama) will......take it into account duely and timely.
Thanks Lord, that typical Americans are men like Mars, Gator, JR, Ken C and others.
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Although it has nothing to do with you being a naturalised American of Chinese descend, you do not represent a typical American man, his mentality ,system of values and cosm.
Chinese? :P Anyway Ludmila, thank you for noticing I'm not like Mars.
and btw, Typical AMERICAN is an oxymoron these days. With or without a cosm. Whatever that is.. ;)
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Asked my husband yesterday what he would have thought of a hypothetical woman who, on a first date (on his hypothetical VM trip), asked him if he was visiting other women. He said he would have considered the question legitimate, but "it would have killed the moment". :D This whole "open and honest" VM scenario is too much like a business transaction, in his opinion.
In my case it wasn't a direct question. I volunteered the information that I had stopped talking to anyone else because I wanted to focus on her and she volunteered similar information. It doesn't have to end up as an interrogation, in fact, my guess is that it's only with those people that have the social skills of a rock where that happens.
Seeing as we ended up married I guess the result was a far cry from "ruining the moment". I'd also suggest that this information should be made clear before the date so that both parties can decide if they want to have the date in the first place. GQ's methodology, although incredibly over engineered, is the most perfectly executed WMVM that I've heard of and I can't see how anyone can have an issue with it as it gives all the women a chance at an informed choice.
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GQ's methodology, although incredibly over engineered
Well he is like...an engineer you know :)
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The proverbial engineer will learn the hard way there's a huge error in his state of the art calculations. You only have to wait. When that happens, will not seem little. My advice for GQ -- grab as many calculators as he can.
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The proverbial engineer will learn the hard way there's a huge error in his state of the art calculations. You only have to wait. When that happens, will not seem little. My advice for GQ -- grab as many calculators as he can.
I'm extremely curious what you think this "huge error" is precisely? As I see it, GQ engineered a meeting environment with several women in an open, honest and sare I say it, efficient way. His methodology was far more likely to be successful than the sometimes deceitful blunderbuss approach I see other WMVM men employing. Sure, it wasn't a method that I would have used but then again, I'm not a WMVM type of guy. If I were, I think I'd consider an approach similar to his.
Not to mention that AFAIK his relationship is doing very well in spite of your dire predictions. ;)
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I'm extremely curious what you think this "huge error" is precisely? As I see it, GQ engineered a meeting environment with several women in an open, honest and sare I say it, efficient way. His methodology was far more likely to be successful than the sometimes deceitful blunderbuss approach I see other WMVM men employing. Sure, it wasn't a method that I would have used but then again, I'm not a WMVM type of guy. If I were, I think I'd consider an approach similar to his.
Pretty brave of you and thanks for the props, but believe me, it was a lot more involved than what I summarized above. I couldn't really think of a better way that will make it as fair and beneficial for everyone involved at the time other than doing it this way. Yeah, it would've been easier had I kept the other meetings hidden from everyone the way some people seem inclined to do, but I likely would have preferred not going through this at all if that was the only option I had.
As for the puzzlement of Ludmila's sentiments towards it, it has nothing to do with what's being discussed here. She likely didn't even take the time to understand what was being discussed. I know of the woman as she appeared on another board under the handle 'Lida' married to a Ukrainian man and was living in New Jersey. People immediately pegged her as a very unhappy and miserable woman with a serious case of superiority complex. You can easily see her posts in this board to support that fact.
She hates everything 'USA'. I once advised her then to just buy a one way ticket back to FSU and quit having a miserable life. So I just assume she keeps posting as she'll do a better job of projecting herself to everyone.
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SJ,
replying to your question : because it is cynical, cynical, and again, VERY cynical, not differing from that of Ambach. IMO, Mssr. Ambach is , at least, more honest, doesn't hide his cynicism, and isn't trying to present himself as a WM.
I rule it out that this character trait will fail to be "appreciated" by any lady, who happens to be his wife ( present or future). You cannot love a Russian lady with Asian love, judge her world with Asian measure stick . That's what neither Ambach, nor GQ ever understood, and will pay a VERY HIGH PRICE.
I don't reply to GQ, because I don't like to waist my time, not because he is a naturalised American of Chinese descent and Asian mentality trying to give himself off as a Western man which he never was and never will be.
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SJ,
replying to your question : because it is cynical, cynical, and again, VERY cynical, not differing from that of Ambach. IMO, Mssr. Ambach is , at least, more honest, doesn't hide his cynicism, and isn't trying to present himself as a WM.
I rule it out that this character trait will fail to be "appreciated" by any lady, who happens to be his wife ( present or future). You cannot love a Russian lady with Asian love, judge her world with Asian measure stick . That's what neither Ambach, nor GQ ever understood, and will pay a VERY HIGH PRICE.
I don't reply to GQ, because I don't like to waist my time, not because he is a naturalised American of Chinese descent and Asian mentality trying to give himself off as a Western man which he never was and never will be.
Ah, that clarifies the situation; you're a racist. :)
And, FWIW, you should check out the definition of "cynical" as yours is way off the mark and doesn't fit anything I've read from GQ, Ambach yes, but not GQ.
Here it is from dictionary.com just for you;
cyn⋅i⋅cal
/ˈsɪnɪkəl/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [sin-i-kuhl] Show IPA
Use cynical in a Sentence
See web results for cynical
See images of cynical
–adjective
1. like or characteristic of a cynic; distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.
2. showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, esp. by actions that exploit the scruples of others.
3. bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic.
4. (initial capital letter) cynic (def. 5).
Origin:
1580–90; cynic + -al 1
Related forms:
cyn⋅i⋅cal⋅ly, adverb
cyn⋅i⋅cal⋅ness, noun
Synonyms:
1, 3. Cynical, pessimistic, sarcastic, satirical imply holding a low opinion of humanity. Cynical suggests a disbelief in the sincerity of human motives: cynical about honesty. Pessimistic implies a more or less habitual disposition to look on the dark side of things, and to believe that the worst will happen: pessimistic as to the future. Sarcastic refers to sneering or making cutting jibes: sarcastic about a profession of faith. Satirical suggests expressing scorn or ridicule by saying the opposite of what one means: a satirical attack on his political promises.
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SJ,
I would like to believe I am a Christian, not Islam believer.
Racism is disgusting.
Hope, it helps .
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SJ,
I would like to believe I am a Christian, not Islam believer.
Racism is disgusting.
Hope, it helps .
True Christian's embrace tolerance and acceptance of other people's beliefs.
It seems to me (and to my wife btw) that your comments in this thread are far more cynical than anything GQ posted and they certainly seem racist.
Maybe we are just misinterpreting your meaning though as English is not your native tongue. Please feel free to elaborate and clarify.
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SJ,
–adjective
1. like or characteristic of a cynic; distrusting or disparaging the motives of others.
2. showing contempt for accepted standards of honesty or morality by one's actions, esp. by actions that exploit the scruples of others.
3. bitterly or sneeringly distrustful, contemptuous, or pessimistic
I can easily see where one can come to a conclusion that GQ's opinions on this matter are cynical if they do not match his own. Anyone that did not agree with his "overboard" disclosure to women (my opinion) was met with contempt and not up to his moral standards.
Luda identifying that GQ's Asian background may be the source of the difference from most of us with European backgrounds, it is no worse than the many generalities attributed to Russians here frequently. Sorry, no racism there.
KenC
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SJ,
I can easily see where one can come to a conclusion that GQ's opinions on this matter are cynical if they do not match his own. Anyone that did not agree with his "overboard" disclosure to women (my opinion) was met with contempt and not up to his moral standards.
Luda identifying that GQ's Asian background may be the source of the difference from most of us with European backgrounds, it is no worse than the many generalities attributed to Russians here frequently. Sorry, no racism there.
Interesting, Ken. Being fortright to what women can expect with me is considered being 'overboard' for you. Cool. To each his own.
As for nationality, I wouldn't mind being of Chinese descent at all had that been the case. The Chinese had definitely been one of the main contributor to humanity's overall makeshift today. Heck, even Peter the Great had more than mere recognition and appreciation to Chinese/Asian culture. Ironic too that she likely have more Asian/Chinese blood running through her veins than I do. LOL. IMO, based on her insinuation in this thread, she IS a racist at worst, ignorant at best.
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I didn't view Ludmilla's posts as racist. She is referring to her perceived notion of "national characteristics". It is not that different from the many posts here on how FSU women are different.
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I didn't view Ludmilla's posts as racist. She is referring to her perceived notion of "national characteristics". It is not that different from the many posts here on how FSU women are different.
With racism there is at least an implied superiority of one's own race and an intolerance of another's. Sounds like Ludmila's post to me.
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Boethius, if she's not a racist then she's just plain ignorant.
Considering the premise of her perceived belief implying negative connotation pertaining marriages in Asian culture, it would shock her to know marriages amongst Russian themselves are far more volatile than any of the Asian culture I'm aware of. Which, taken within the context of her offerring, IS an ignorant statement. Which for all intent and purposes is the grassroot of racism.
btw FWIW, I am not a member of the band of brothers touting RWs are different than any other.
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With racism there is at least an implied superiority of one's own race and an intolerance of another's. Sounds like Ludmila's post to me.
I viewed the post as cultural rather than racial.
Boethius, if she's not a racist then she's just plain ignorant.
Yes, I can agree with that. The post was ignorant.
Considering the premise of her perceived belief implying negative connotation pertaining marriages in Asian culture, it would shock her to know marriages amongst Russian themselves are far more volatile than any of the Asian culture I'm aware of. Which, taken within the context of her offerring, IS an ignorant statement. Which for all intent and purposes is the grassroot of racism.
Hmm, I don't know about that. Asia is fairly large. I will say, in my experience, Chinese and Filipina women, like most married women, rule the roost.
btw FWIW, I am not a member of the band of brothers touting RWs are different than any other.
Yes, I know that. Nor does SJ. My point was, this is often a general "conclusion" or "accepted wisdom" on this board.
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Interesting, Ken. Being fortright to what women can expect with me is considered being 'overboard' for you. Cool. To each his own.
Couldn't help but look down from your mountaintop yet again? Point proven.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
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Couldn't help but look down from your mountaintop yet again? Point proven.
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
I find it strange that you mock a man that obviously judges himself against extremely high ethical standards without, AFAIK, overly moralizing with those that differ in opinion. I certainly don't agree with GQ's position on everything myself but I can appreciate his honesty and integrity.
I wonder what you would say if Ambach said, "Couldn't help but look down from your mountaintop yet again?" to you?
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OK, I'll play. :rolleyes2:
I find it strange that you mock a man that obviously judges himself against extremely high ethical standards
"Judges himself against" or puts himself above anyone that disagrees? Hmm?
without, AFAIK, overly moralizing with those that differ in opinion. I certainly don't agree with GQ's position on everything myself but I can appreciate his honesty and integrity.
Key word here is "overly." Rather subjective now isn't it?
I wonder what you would say if Ambach said, "Couldn't help but look down from your mountaintop yet again?" to you?
:ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
And he did, many a time too. You would be hard pressed to find any member lower than ambach in the history of RWD and therefore he would be looking up to everyone here. ambach is the polar opposite of GQ and yet their contempt for others with opinions different from their own, is rather similar. GQ is not as caustic as ambach was, but their mutual disdain and haughty attitudes were both very transparent.
KenC
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OK, I'll play. :rolleyes2:"Judges himself against" or puts himself above anyone that disagrees? Hmm?
Key word here is "overly." Rather subjective now isn't it? :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL: :ROFL:
Sorry, I just don't see it. Maybe I've missed some posts or maybe it's just that you are projecting, assuming condescension where none exists because you compare yourself against him and find yourself wanting? ;)
And he did, many a time too. You would be hard pressed to find any member lower than ambach in the history of RWD and therefore he would be looking up to everyone here. ambach is the polar opposite of GQ and yet their contempt for other with opinions different from their own, is rather similar. GQ is not as caustic as ambach was, but their mutual disdain and haughty attitudes were both very transparent.
KenC
I don't see it so either I'm missing the obvious, it isn't "transparent" or perhaps the "disdain and haughty attitude" you accuse GQ of only exists inside your own perceptions. Or perhaps you are having me on, after all, this wouldn't be the first time you exaggerated beyond reason in an attempt to win an argument with someone.
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Sorry, I just don't see it. Maybe I've missed some posts or maybe it's just that you are projecting, assuming condescension where none exists because you compare yourself against him and find yourself wanting? ;)
Yup, that's it! I wanna be just like him when I grow up! :rolleyes2:
Look SJ, I have shown my respect for GQ's opinion when I complimented him on his well planned out trip and even defended the validity of the post describing it. However, it doesn't mean that I would do things his way at all. GQ has not shown the same respect for me and others (dogspot, Mars) that have a difference of opinion on certain aspects of first meeting RW. The agreement of some RW to our way of thinking (Bored1, Blues Fairy) has not softened his position at all. His condescending jabs still continue even in his last post.
I don't see it so either I'm missing the obvious, it isn't "transparent" or perhaps the "disdain and haughty attitude" you accuse GQ of only exists inside your own perceptions. Or perhaps you are having me on, after all, this wouldn't be the first time you exaggerated beyond reason in an attempt to win an argument with someone.
Maybe because you have the same exact opinion on this subject as GQ and a similar attitude toward those that disagree? :cluebat:
KenC
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And, FWIW, you should check out the definition of "cynical" as yours is way off the mark and doesn't fit anything I've read from GQ, Ambach yes, but not GQ.
Here it is from dictionary.com just for you;
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Absolutely. But take it all with a grain of salt. While we are all well intentioned, some of us are no better than you are at figuring things out, and some of us are worse. So look at the facts, including the experience and other credibility factors of the person advising you before you act.
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However, it doesn't mean that I would do things his way at all. GQ has not shown the same respect for me and others (dogspot, Mars) that have a difference of opinion on certain aspects of first meeting RW.
Ken-
Why do you persist of being such a fatalist?
If I remember correctly, you do NOT have one clear and distinct stance in this issue because you stated TWO different contradicting views within two pages of this thread. I even re-quoted it to you. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing. Maybe you have plenty of idle times these days, but man you need to find a hobby to occupy yourself.
1. I never disrespected dogspot because he disagreed with me.
2. As far as Mars is concerned, I simply keep batting back what he pitches at me. I don't take too kindly to GrandPa reflexes.
To give clarity again, YES, I have great disdain and disrespect for men who would willingly and willfully deceive a woman just to get a date, let alone one he professed promises of exclusivity and endearment to. Whether they do this in FSU, here at home or anywhere. The rest is up to you to conclude. ;)
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Just tired of your overly moralistic BS and condescending attitude toward me and others. You didn't "get it" the first two or three times, why would you now? Have a nice day on your mountain top.
KenC
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Hmm, I don't know about that. Asia is fairly large. I will say, in my experience, Chinese and Filipina women, like most married women, rule the roost.
You mean like when Russian family roles are best described using head and the neck to show who rules their roost? :D
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I was a VM......
I wrote to, and received letters from, a number of women......I met these women in Moscow....Fortunately, 70% of the women were Moscow residents.
GQ: I understand the next to last lady worked out for you. Do you think things would have worked out if your favorite was one of the Moscow ladies you met in the first few days? Would she have understood you spending the rest of your 2 or 3 weeks with introduction to other ladies, even though you told her upfront the game plan? Would she (or her friend) be sneaking into the lobby and nightclub watching your escapades? By the way, your method is similar to the one I used in my first trip to Moscow at Hotel Cosmos, though on a smaller scale. I met a lady from St. Pete, Rostov, Volgograd, a small city close to Moscow, and two from Moscow(both lasted about 10 minutes). I had a difficult time finding quality ladies living in Moscow who wanted to meet me. Only the lady from Rostov interested me. What was your opinion of the 70% Moscow ladies?
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I had a difficult time finding quality ladies living in Moscow who wanted to meet me.
Who do you call quality ladies?
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Here we go, this could be good..................
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Who do you call quality ladies?
RW: I didn't say I didn't find any quality Moscow ladies on the web sites. I did. They just didn't want to meet me. One was a reporter for a Moscow TV station. She quit answering my emails as soon as I checked in. The 2 ladies from Moscow and the ones from St. Pete and Vgrad had absolutely no resemblence to the pictures they posted on their web site profiles. A quality lady will provide an accurate representation of herself. She probably won't be living with ten of her relatives in one apartment in the southeast side of town.
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A quality lady will provide an accurate representation of herself. She probably won't be living with ten of her relatives in one apartment in the southeast side of town.
Sorry...?
By the way how often you meet women who look different than in their photos?
And looking at those glamorous photos, do you understand that the reality can be different?
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Sorry...?
By the way how often you meet women who look different than in their photos?
And looking at those glamorous photos, do you understand that the reality can be different?
Only the photogenic people look like their photo. I generally have to get 30 pictures of myself to find one I would want to display on internet. So I would say 95% look different from their photos. Some actually look better. Thank goodness for videos.
It doesn't take long to find out about the glamour photos. I even see ladies with different photos on 2 different web sites. Sometimes it looks like a before/after commercial with major work by Maybelline, Playtex, and the plastic surgeon.
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I hoped you would explain me your line:
A quality lady will provide an accurate representation of herself. She probably won't be living with ten of her relatives in one apartment in the southeast side of town.
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JohnDear-
This post is in strict response to your questions. Considering the hypothetical nature of your questions, I will try to answer the best way I can.
Q: Do you think things would have worked out if your favorite was one of the Moscow ladies you met in the first few days?
- I have more than a couple of reasons to believe so. I don't think it would have changed or influenced anything based solely on the ensuing events that took place after I left. Everyone knew what that trip was all for anyway - a chance to meet in person.
Q: Would she have understood you spending the rest of your 2 or 3 weeks with introduction to other ladies, even though you told her upfront the game plan?
- I have no reason to believe otherwise. Had it been an issue for her, it never would have been an issue for 'us' cause I would not have been a part of it.
Q: Would she (or her friend) be sneaking into the lobby and nightclub watching your escapades?
- What I found out in my experience on that trip was that women react to the same stimuli they do at home. Sure there's some slight societal variances, but for the most part - women are women. There were a couple of moments that may be considered uncomfortable had it not been for the fact I didn't have anything to hide, thus had no fear of what was happening.
One example was I remember walking back into the hotel with the woman from Ekaterinberg. She just arrived earlier that day and we had a late lunch in Arbat. She knew I had to be back by 5 PM because one lady from Moscow was meeting me for dinner. But the Moscow lady was early and when I walked hand in hand with the Ekat lady through the lobby towards the elevator, Ms. Moscow was sitting on the couch watching us. I smiled and waved, she waved. I walked the Ekat lady to her hotel room, bid me good luck and asked I call her when I get back, and went downstairs - and that was that. No mention of it anymore from anyone.
Q: What was your opinion of the 70% Moscow ladies?
- Extremely wonderful, gracious and pretty much wear the same feline suit as the ladies of LA - for the most part. And yes, the game's d' same.
I can tell you a more detailed response but in light of the obvious fact this is NOT the proper venue, I can only hope the answers I did give were enough.
Good luck.
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Quote GQ:
"One example was I remember walking back into the hotel with the woman from Ekaterinberg. She just arrived earlier that day and we had a late lunch in Arbat. She knew I had to be back by 5 PM because one lady from Moscow was meeting me for dinner. But the Moscow lady was early and when I walked hand in hand with the Ekat lady through the lobby towards the elevator, Ms. Moscow was sitting on the couch watching us. I smiled and waved, she waved. I walked the Ekat lady to her hotel room, bid me good luck and asked I call her when I get back, and went downstairs - and that was that. No mention of it anymore from anyone."
'TIS SAID THAT THEIR LAST PARTING WAS PATHETIC
AS PARTINGS OFTEN ARE, OR OUGHT TO BE,
AND THEIR PRESENTIMENT WAS QUITE PROPHETIC,
THAT THEY SHOULD NEVER MORE EACH OTHER SEE,
( A SORT OF MORBID FEELING, HALF POETIC,
WHICH I HAVE KNOWN OCCUR IN TWO OR THREE),
WHEN KNEELING ON THE SHORE UPON HER SAD KNEE
HE LEFT HIS ADRIATIC ARIADNE.
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This stanza's to distract and caress GQ's ear:
(Northern Thor-- Russia. Thor--the God of Thunder in ancient Scandinavian mythology).
Crushed was Napoleon by the Northern Thor,
Who knocked his army down with icy hammer,
Stopped by the ELEMENTS-- like a Whaler--or
A blundering novice in his new French grammar.
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Thus unlamented pass the proud away,
The gaze of fools, and pageant of a day!
So perish all, whose breast ne'er learn'd to glow
For others' good, or melt at others' woe.
This stanza's to distract and caress GQ's ear:
(Northern Thor-- Russia. Thor--the God of Thunder in ancient Scandinavian mythology).
Crushed was Napoleon by the Northern Thor,
Who knocked his army down with icy hammer,
Stopped by the ELEMENTS-- like a Whaler--or
A blundering novice in his new French grammar.
Do you believe GQ is such a rube, he doesn't know who Thor is? My kids at 6 could have identified Thor.
(ETA: If you're a Byron fan, you may wish to pick up Fiona MacCarthy's fascinating biography.)
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Do you believe GQ is such a rube, he doesn't know who Thor is? My kids at 6 could have identified Thor.
Yes, we know Thor. Everytime I see a rainbow, I look for Thor in his chariot racing away from the rainclouds to get to the rainbow. Or is that Punxsutawney Phil?
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I hoped you would explain me your line: "She probably won't be living with ten of her relatives in one apartment in the southeast side of town."
RussianWind, it makes no sense to me either. Perhaps it is something from his local newspaper about a missing Mexican woman, and it erroneously became spliced with his post.
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Yes, we know Thor. Everytime I see a rainbow, I look for Thor in his chariot racing away from the rainclouds to get to the rainbow. Or is that Punxsutawney Phil?
I am glad you told me who Thor was. I would have thought it was our Norwegian member who used want ads to meet his dream girl in Ukraine. Good thing you are not from Punxy Gator. I wonder if anyone from there names their son Phil?
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I hoped you would explain me your line:
RW: It was in remembrance of another Moscow lady I met for lunch at the mall on another trip. She said she worked for $1/hour at one of the warehouse mall low budget dress shops. She told me how her sister met a man on internet. The man had lied to her about his occupation, his age, and several other things. She said the sister forgave? him and married him anyway. He moved into their apartment and they had a baby now. Her grandparents also lived in the apartment. Must have been about 10 in the one apartment. Sad. But I wasn't looking for a desperate lady.
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- Extremely wonderful, gracious and pretty much wear the same feline suit as the ladies of LA - for the most part. And yes, the game's d' same.
Good luck.
I'm just extremely surprised that all would go on schedule. The 1st 5 days of my trip were a disaster. I had two ladies back out at last minute. My #2 choice from St. Pete said she decided to go Turkey instead. While I was meeting with another lady, she called my interpreter and said she was on a stopover at the train station coming back. I guess her better offer didn't work out. Would I come over to meet with her for 30 minutes. I declined. She then sent me an email with a virus attachment. The other lady from St Pete seemed to be a bit mentally retarded. Another said her work schedule would make her delay her arrival, causing her to arrive the same day the Rostov lady (my #1 choice all along) arrived. She was an extremely nice lady, just not my type, so I felt bad about saying goodbye to her after a 2 hour visit. I got food poisoning eating the food at the park next to Hotel Cosmos. Fortunately I recovered and everything went well with the Rostov lady.
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Crushed was Napoleon by the Northern Thor,
Holy Homo Lord of Thunder Batman! Whodat?
Thor, you say? Well, Golly Gee 'spose it'll depend on which one. Oku-Thor or simply Thor? The Germanic mythology version or the Scandinavian clown? Maybe even the Marvel comic version's of the son of Odin (yeah, recently adopted by good ol' Mickey himself so Odin is now the official bastard 'POPs' of the son of God and Earth, Lord of Thunder, Protector of Disneyworld in association with The Gays and Lesbians United Front of Hollywood)
Incidentally, he was last spotted two Halloweens ago on the streets of Sta Monica Blvd. and La Cienega with his beloved kissin' cousin in tow. Rumor has it Thor actually had a mistress, (that womanizing swine, hehehe)...since he had a hard time looking for a nice, warm and dark hole to insert his lighting rod. Silly Boink of Thunder, trix are for Kix.
Anyway, he claims to be THE redheaded, bearded Thor but his cousin bore a much more strikingly glamorous long blonde locks...dunno, I think they need a new face for Thor for the sake of being PC and this time I really think he should have Rustafarian dreadlocks while screaming It'sa Hammertime! Who's Yo Dahddeeee? . (Out with the dated hammer though, man. We only do unmanned weaponry these days.)
Heck, I'll stake my money on Baku than this loser myth anyday. Thor came out of the closet many moons ago soon after riding his sweet gawdy chariot. Must be the effects of staring and striking at those equine rear ends, eh? At least Baku and his marauding hordes successfully left their Mongolian (Yikes! Asians!) cultural footprints all over (amongst other things), well, you know where....and good 'ol' Thor, The Boink of Thunder, was nowhere to be found.
No Lida, you can't have Alaska back, neppers, nope, no way! So don't worry, be happy...and make mine an expresso, please. Double. ;D
oh and btw Boethius, great elegy! Thanks.
O, ever beauteous, ever friendly! tell,
Is it, in Heav'n, a crime to love too well?
To bear too tender or too firm a heart,
To act a lover's or a Roman's part?
Is there no bright reversion in the sky
For those who greatly think, or bravely die?
Why bade ye else, ye Pow'rs! her soul aspire
Above the vulgar flight of low desire?
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JohnDear-
I went through a stringent proces as well and yes, two weeks prior to my trip, 3 ladies were struck out. One from Vladi, one from Yaroslvl and the last one from Berdansk(sp), UK. It's the nature of the beast, so I just had to deal with it. One bailed out and the other two I had to forego.
In looking back, I still can't see doing this any other way that would work FOR ME. You would be in stitches if I told you every details in my experience with each and every personalities of the women involved. Great lot. I still have the very same cell phone I used for that trip. In it, every single text messages sent and received still intact. One of these days I need to donate that puppy to our neighborhood recycler. But for now though, it's a good souvenir to have.
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I still have the very same cell phone I used for that trip. In it, every single text messages sent and received still intact. One of these days I need to donate that puppy to our neighborhood recycler. But for now though, it's a good souvenir to have.
Has your wife ever seen this memento (or the contents within)?
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Oh yeah eventually...there were nothing boldly incriminating on the messages anyway. Besides, many of them were hers.
Once we went exclusive, she sent me a folder of all the men I was in competition with. It's a humbling but comforting experience. I always believed it's very difficult to make the right choice if one never had choices to make it from in the first place. But that's just me...So it's all good.
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GQ, I am quoting your semi- conscious mumbling:
"Incidentally, he was last spotted two Halloweens ago on the streets of Sta Monica Blvd. and La Cienega with his beloved kissin' cousin in tow. Rumor has it Thor actually had a mistress, (that womanizing swine, hehehe)...since he had a hard time looking for a nice, warm and dark hole to insert his lighting rod. Silly Boink of Thunder, trix are for Kix.
Anyway, he claims to be THE redheaded, bearded Thor but his cousin bore a much more strikingly glamorous long blonde locks...dunno, I think they need a new face for Thor for the sake of being PC and this time I really think he should have Rustafarian dreadlocks while screaming It'sa Hammertime! Who's Yo Dahddeeee? . (Out with the dated hammer though, man. We only do unmanned weaponry these days.)
Heck, I'll stake my money on Baku than this loser myth anyday. Thor came out of the closet many moons ago soon after riding his sweet gawdy chariot. Must be the effects of staring and striking at those equine rear ends, eh? At least Baku and his marauding hordes successfully left their Mongolian (Yikes! Asians!) cultural footprints all over (amongst other things), well, you know where....and good 'ol' Thor, The Boink of Thunder, was nowhere to be found".
I have a feeling ( so does my husband), that you are in the mid of your slumber, while we are listening to how you are trying to finally be uninhibited and tell us about what is hidden so deep in your subconscience, the content over abundant in phallic symbols of rods and rear ends.....
A stunning blend of a nightmare, flow of consciousness, teenager's sexual dreams about something that never happened, suppressed inhibitions........and all this cock-- hm-- tail.... is offered with Chinese dressing. Truly, what is considered a deli in China ,is not regarded as food in Russia. Didn't your wife tell you yet?
I was thinking, what is subject to a more efficient cure: DELUSION OF GRANDEUR OR INFERIORITY COMPLEX?
One can easily see yours is an overexcited nervous system, overirritated psyche, hot temper, nonacceptance of an opinion differing from your own, complete lack of the sense of humor, delusion of grandeur...stemming from an inferiority complex ( usually acquired in childhood).
Quoting you, GQ: "So don't worry, be happy...and make mine an expresso, please. Double. "
Coffee? We have to be very careful what "drink" we are choosing. You are dreaming of sitting in a cafe , and a Russian lady bringing you a cup of coffee ( you see, we have to be very careful with stimulants-- see above) ?
You see, in my earlier years my parents saw to it, that their daughter would have excellent possible education, therefore the part you want to see me will only stay in your wild dream.
What I would definitely bring you--and you will not see me tip toeing with pee pee steps while doing it--
will be a glass of cold water. ( My husband suggested a bucket, he is volunteering to help me). Although i told him you say you are a WM, he refuses to beleive it-- you cannot make him, you know. And that will be because you are sick. Water for the sick. Sword for the foe. In strict accordance with the Christian beliefs. Recover soon!
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Evidently, the "excellent education" your parents provided didn't include a study of theology.
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LOL. Now, that's deep Lida, WOW! You really are edoookayted. But you still can't have Alaska back, OK?
But anyway, I understand your frustration...I can only imagine how it must sux to be a racist living in New Jersey. Tough to openly express yourself :-X
You see, in my earlier years my parents saw to it, that their daughter would have excellent possible education,
Oww...too bad they ran out of money by the time your turn came up, eh? Oh well, StarBuck's go-fer girl is a must-have in every office. No shame in that. ;)
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I will answer my own question I started many moons ago
NOPE
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In looking back, I still can't see doing this any other way that would work FOR ME.
Well, I changed my plans greatly for my next trip to Moscow. It was not VO or VM, but more like SVM (surrogate VM). I had established a good connection with the lady interpreter on my first trip. So before I traveled, I sent her the profiles, addresses, and phone numbers of the dozen ladies I was communicating with and paid her to "check them out" and provide me with her feedback. This allowed me to quickly screen out most of the ladies and left me with a couple of quality ladies to spend my time with.
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Well, GQ, I cannot help feeling you have exhausted your intellectual potential. I am letting you go: it looks like it is time for you to rest .
Focus on my free advice ( see previous post), lots of cleansing ( water is ideal material ), calming drinks, plus take a vitamin B complex for 3 months ( helps to maintain the health of nerves and proper brain function-- your case). Recover soon!
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I will answer my own question I started many moons ago
NOPE
Then why are you here?
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Then why are you here?
Entertainment
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Entertainment
Kudos. Based on some of your posts, you're doing a great job keeping people amused here.
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I will answer my own question I started many moons ago
NOPE
I think if you actually got on a plane and made a trip over there you might see that some of the advice given around here is useful. I mean, there is only one way to know. ;)
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Well, GQ, I cannot help feeling you have exhausted your intellectual potential. I am letting you go: it looks like it is time for you to rest .
Focus on my free advice ( see previous post), lots of cleansing ( water is ideal material ), calming drinks, plus take a vitamin B complex for 3 months ( helps to maintain the health of nerves and proper brain function-- your case). Recover soon!
:ROFL:
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... There was not one woman that did not know I plan on meeting a number of women in Russia.
.... I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women.
GQ
Congrats, it sounds like you have found your Russian lady.
Your story about your first visit was quite interesting.
I have a few questions for you.
1. Did you tell any of the women you met that you were meeting well over 20 women on the trip?
2. Did you tell the women the date you arrived in Russia?
3. How long on average after meeting each woman did it take for you to determine that they weren't right for you?
4. How long did it take for you to determine that your girlfriend/fiancee
was the one for you?
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So the dismal state of relations between the sexes is finally redeemed: Good source of jokes as in threads like this. Not much good advice anywhere about relations between the sexes. Here least of all. Success - when you have that you can advise. Here is my favorite bit of advice, from another one who did not get the girl:
"Man's love to women and women's love to man: would that it were sympathy in suffering and veiled deities: but generally two animals alight"
Nietzsche
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Hi CM-
Thanks. Let me address your questions.
Q- Did you tell any of the women you met that you were meeting well over 20 women on the trip?
- No, because the actual number was undetermined up until the very day I arrived in Moscow. I didn't really have a 'set' number of women I planned on so I kind'a let it play itself out. The ladies were not at all 'obligated' to this experience and they are free to exercise their right to change their minds. That ‘20’ count was I believe the third to the last cut I was screening out. It went to 14, then 12, etc..
Q- Did you tell the women the date you arrived in Russia?
- More or less. I gave them a calendar period range. I basically said I will be arriving in Moscow between 'X' day and 'X' day during this month. No one *knew* the exact date just approximately - within 5 days. I told them I would call when I arrived. With the exception of those coming from out of town, of course.
Q- How long on average after meeting each woman did it take for you to determine that they weren't right for you?
- Almost immediately, or at least within reasonable amount of face time – 2-4 hours. The gals were all great during the correspondence but as you know, the mind can be a pretty tricky thing sometimes. Face times really put a lot of things in much better perspectives.
Q- How long did it take for you to determine that your girlfriend/fiancee was the one for you?
- First trip left me with two potential women I wanted to continue contacts with. Before the second visit, that went down to one, and between the 3rd – 4th visits decided to be exclusive.
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Hi CM-
Thanks. Let me address your questions.
Q- Did you tell any of the women you met that you were meeting well over 20 women on the trip?
- No, because the actual number was undetermined up until the very day I arrived in Moscow. I didn't really have a 'set' number of women I planned on so I kind'a let it play itself out. The ladies were not at all 'obligated' to this experience and they are free to exercise their right to change their minds. That ‘20’ count was I believe the third to the last cut I was screening out. It went to 14, then 12, etc..
Q- Did you tell the women the date you arrived in Russia?
- More or less. I gave them a calendar period range. I basically said I will be arriving in Moscow between 'X' day and 'X' day during this month. No one *knew* the exact date just approximately - within 5 days. I told them I would call when I arrived. With the exception of those coming from out of town, of course.
Thanks GQ. The first two questions were tied together.
For the second question, you decided not to tell the ladies when you actually arrived in Russia.
Instead you chose to tell them a small fib which gave them the impression that you had just arrived or arrived at most four or five days ago.
What I was getting at was, on the one hand you were saying that you were being up front with the ladies right from the start about your intentions, but really you were not being totally up front.
ie. had all the ladies known that they were 1/20 or 1/30 women that you were seeing there, they might not have agreed to take part in the meetings.
Likewise, had the ladies known the actual date you arrived, some might have wondered why you were seeing them two months later etc.
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English was not the ladies' native tongue but they didn't seem to have a hard time understanding what we were talking about.
If I told you I'll be arriving between Monday to Friday and I arrived Wednesday, how's that a fib? I said I would call when I arrive, NOT as soon as I arrive. Now ask me why the date range and I'll be glad to tell you...
If I told the women I was meeting other women, never knowing exactly how many there will ultimately be - how can I give a definitve number to begin with? Even *I* didn't know exactly how many women I actually was going to meet on my trip? The women knew I was meeting many, exactly how many they didn't know and neither did I.
ie. had all the ladies known that they were 1/20 or 1/30 women that you were seeing there, they might not have agreed to take part in the meetings.
I didn't meet 20 or 30.Your mind is already playing tricks on you. Besides, some did bow out of the meeting days before I came. I had no problem with that. How's that troubling to you?
Likewise, had the ladies known the actual date you arrived, some might have wondered why you were seeing them two months later etc.
I don't get it. Which women was left wondering? Which woman was I seeing two months later beyond the one I decided to keep in contact with? You think maybe you're just picking fly phsyt out of peppers?
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GQ, first let me make it clear that I have nothing against what you did on your first trip.
If I told you I'll be arriving between Monday to Friday and I arrived Wednesday, how's that a fib? I said I would call when I arrive, NOT as soon as I arrive. Now ask me why the date range and I'll be glad to tell you...
I didn't single out the Mon-Fri as a fib. I was simply saying that from the women's perspective, you were staying five days, that's all. But that wasn't really the case at all.
You didn't tell them when you were arriving nor how long your trip was intended for, even approximately. They just thought you were there for five days, that's all.
If I told the women I was meeting other women, never knowing exactly how many there will ultimately be - how can I give a definitve number to begin with? Even *I* didn't know exactly how many women I actually was going to meet on my trip? The women knew I was meeting many, exactly how many they didn't know and neither did I.
The point is, the women never knew you had a short-list of 20-30 women to start.
That's all I'm saying.
I didn't meet 20 or 30.Your mind is already playing tricks on you. Besides, some did bow out of the meeting days before I came. I had no problem with that. How's that troubling to you?
None of this troubles me at all (see the first line of my reply).
Here's what you stated earlier:
"I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women."
That would lead most people to believe that during the stated period above you still were intending on meeting upwards of 20+ women.
All I'm trying to do is make a connection with this fact and what the women you were making dates with were thinking.
Likewise, had the ladies known the actual date you arrived, some might have wondered why you were seeing them two months later etc.
I don't get it. Which women was left wondering? Which woman was I seeing two months later beyond the one I decided to keep in contact with? You think maybe you're just picking fly phsyt out of peppers?
The way you set it up was brilliant GQ. Each women thought you had just arrived and were seeing them within a 5 day period. That's all I'm saying.
But the reality is that you were there for more than two months.
All I'm saying is that you didn't tell the ladies this fact.
I know, I know...... they never asked you. :)
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I didn't single out the Mon-Fri as a fib. I was simply saying that from the women's perspective, you were staying five days, that's all. But that wasn't really the case at all.
You didn't tell them when you were arriving nor how long your trip was intended for, even approximately. They just thought you were there for five days, that's all.
You misunderstood. I didn't stay 5 days nor did I stay 2 months. IIRC the totals days spent was 13 days. They knew I will be there roughly a half a month. The range of my arrival date was 5 days. I couldn't commit to a definite date because I had a 7-hour layover in Austria (bought two seperate RT tickets, LA-NY-Frankfurt-Vienna & Vienna-Moscow) because I had a lot of friends from Banska Bystrica & Prague and had a 'plan' to meet up with a few of them when I arrived in Vienna and if time permitted, I would have liked to have spent a couple or more days in Bratislava (a 45-minute drive from Vienna) to catch up as I haven't seen them in a little over a year. Even if I lost out on a few booked hotel days in Moscow. The women knew about this but it was undetermined if it will happen. No one knew exactly when I'll be arriving in Moscow and neither did I. There was only a 5-day window because the 6th day would've been the day the first out-of towner was scheduled to arrive so I had to be in town by then.
The point is, the women never knew you had a short-list of 20-30 women to start. That's all I'm saying.
20-30 women to start? No, I actually started with a lot more than that. I probably wrote to 30+ myself, then you need to add the number of women who wrote to me (you think this is alot, ask BillyB how many he wrote to 5 years ago). A good number of women didn't want to partake with the plan I had from the get-go. Those who initially said they were OK with it, eventually started falling off the line for one reason or another, either a) they changed their mind, b) I drop them off the list, c) their status changed, d) they lost interest/I lost interest, etc...
Here's what you stated earlier: "I remember a period between Valentine's Day and Women's Day and the list I still had was upwards of 20+ women." That would lead most people to believe that during the stated period above you still were intending on meeting upwards of 20+ women.
International women's day is March 8, my trip was mid-April to early May. I had 20+ women I was corresponding with around V-Day to W-Day and you might have missed what I said when I said, "That ‘20’ count was I believe the third to the last cut I was screening out. It went to 14, then 12, etc..". Did they know the exact number of women I wrote to and who wrote to me from the very beginning? How can they and how can I? The writing campaign was on-going probably for about the first 3-4 weeks since I started. A daily count to keep everyone updated to the actual number of correspondence I had for *any given day* unfortunately was unavailable. So there really was 'no' set number of correspondence at any given time. During the letter campaign certain women started to become *fixed* solely because of their maintained correspondence but that was the best it ever got. Even then, I still lost/drop women days before I arrived.
All I'm trying to do is make a connection with this fact and what the women you were making dates with were thinking
While subtle, remember one very important thing, the meetings were simply to meet in person - they were NOT dates. That may be a matter of semantics but IMO I wasn't dating anyone - yet. I made it clear that it was void of any personal/emotional innuendos. I was planning on meeting a number of women to see if there's any possibility of dating any of them, and them - me.
The way you set it up was brilliant GQ. Each women thought you had just arrived and were seeing them within a 5 day period. That's all I'm saying. But the reality is that you were there for more than two months. All I'm saying is that you didn't tell the ladies this fact.
See above.
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You misunderstood. I didn't stay 5 days nor did I stay 2 months. IIRC the totals days spent was 13 days.
OK got ya' now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Good luck with your lady!
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What I was getting at was, on the one hand you were saying that you were being up front with the ladies right from the start about your intentions, but really you were not being totally up front.
ie. had all the ladies known that they were 1/20 or 1/30 women that you were seeing there, they might not have agreed to take part in the meetings.
CMan: The remote ladies will not be a problem as they are scheduled for a fixed definite time period (unless they change schedule at last minute) The potential problem is keeping the local lady happy. I would think Moscow ladies would know the score and what is going on. If they aren't smart enough to figure it out, you probably won't be interested in them. If you were only visiting one lady, I am sure you will always tell her "I am only visiting you". If she doesn't hear that message, she knows what the alternative is (unless you lie to them).
So if you try this method, I would suggest scheduling the remote ladies first. Fill in any spare time during that time period with local ladies on the bottom of your "list". After the remote ladies are gone, then see more local ladies, starting with the top of your list and going down from there. If you find a local lady you like a lot, just see her the rest of the week and skip the rest. It's always harder than you think to find a good one.
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CMan: The remote ladies will not be a problem as they are scheduled for a fixed definite time period (unless they change schedule at last minute) The potential problem is keeping the local lady happy...
So if you try this method, I would suggest scheduling the remote ladies first. Fill in any spare time during that time period with local ladies on the bottom of your "list"....
Thanks John I will keep this tucked away.
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There is a ton of good information in this thread.
Regarding the original premise of seeking advice from RWD here is
my answer.
You are asking advice for free, about something in which we are only privy to
what you tell us. Only you know all aspects of the situation. Only you know your
true goals, hopes, dreams, your strengths and weaknesses.
When you ask for advice, you get lots of advice. Some of
that advice will be very good, some of it will be so-so and some of it will be
dubious or worse.
Some of the advice will be written in a helpful manner and some of it will be
written sarcastically and some will be written as if you did something wrong.
Your job is to sort through all the advice keeping the good stuff and ignoring
the rest. Whatever you do, don't get offended. Nobody knows you and getting
offended by words written in cyberspace by somebody you don't know is a total
waste of your time.
Udachi! (that means good luck in Russian)
Bill