The Propaganda War

[Photo Guy]

Die-cast,
Please answer your previous questions for me.

Photo Guy,
Why do you think that RWD is a good place to get inside the Russian mind?
       There are people here from Russia or living in Russia, and this is not a political forum, so the sampling of people is probably random.

What prevent you from reading those threads about Ukraine/Russia cause, which we already have on RWD?
     Lack of time. I barely have time to be here.
 
Don't you think you can find there many answers to your questions?
     It would be nice, but my life does not depend on it. I do not live
in Ukraine.

     Can you tell us, why Ukraine is of interest to USA?
No, I only speak for myself. The USA is a supporter of NATO and Russia is close to NATO countries, so we are obligated to protect NATO countries. When Hitler invaded the Sudetenland to protect ethnic Germans, many countries did nothing and were not interested. The world is a small place. When a strong country invades a weak country, the world should be interested. When a country changes from a dictatorship to a democracy, the USA usually supports them.

     Do you question the actions of your politicians in Ukraine?
Which actions are you referring to? Kerry has been direct with Russia. I agree with his statements.

Why don't you use other sources about Russians in Russia except Russian News service?
     I am open to specific suggestions. Most of Lavrov's statements sound crazy to me.

What sources do you use to learn more about Ukrainians in Ukraine?
     I speak with people that I know there. And there are many internet articles. Even Belarus supports the territorial integrity of Ukraine.

Are you able to separate real news from ridiculous propaganda (both Russian and Ukrainian)?
   Yeah, I think so. For example, I read one story here about how there were 'fake' refugees from Crimea. I determined that was a stupid story because I then found many stories about real refugees from Crimea- many Tartars. And did you see the video where students protested the playing of the Russian anthem at their school in Crimea? I think the video was truthful.

Did the life of your Ukrainian friends improve since "corrupt dictator was thrown out"?
     That was very recent and yes, trade agreements are being made with the EU. Life for my friends there has not changed very much. Now they have hope for a better life. They want to travel freely to the EU. They want to follow in the footsteps of Poland.

What makes you think that Ukraine will be invaded?
     They already were invaded in Crimea and Russia is sending armed individuals to take over buildings in Donetsk, Lugansk, Kharkov, etc. Russia is interfering with life and government in Ukraine. Russia has many troops at the Ukraine border. Ukrainians are very worried. This is intimidation by Putin.

What do you think about Hungarian wish of Transcarpathia's annexion? (Ukrainian Zakarpattia Oblast)
     I am not familiar with that. Send me a link.

Do you understand that Ukraine is a bankrupt already and a part of Ukrainian population doesn't support current government?
     Did you know that many Americans do not support Obama. Ha. Yes, Ukraine is bankrupt, Russia is financially shaky, and the EU is slowly improving economically.
Allow Ukraine to solve their problems without an invasion, without taking over buildings and creating chaos. That is what Russians are doing.

Why people who were fighting on Maidan they call "heroes", but people who are protesting in South-Eastern Ukraine - "terrorists"?
   Good question. Maidan revolutionaries are heroes because they protested Yanukovych's sudden decision to avoid a trade agreement with the EU. Then Yanu's court said it was illegal to have a public protest. Then Yanu's police beat journalists and students who were protesting. Protesters gathered there for three months. They were brave and strong. The public became aware of Yanu's opulent palaces, in the context of a poor country. Yanu's court made it illegal to 'slander' the government, going against freedom of speech. His court made it illegal to wear protective helmets. Despite that, protesters of all ages remained on the square as the riot police tried to force them away. The brave protesters stood strong. The revolutionaries were protesting:
1- the right to protest 2- freedom of speech(Yanu's police beat many journalists) 3- Yanu's sudden decision to move away from the EU and toward Russia. There were many more protesting at Maidan than any pro-Russian protest in other cities.
     Now let's compare Maidan to the armed occupation of a Donetsk government building by a gunman from Tula. What are the pro-Russians in the East protesting? It is not clear to me. Please explain. They want anther corrupt leader like Yanukovych?

What do you think about statements like , which comes from Ukrainian citizens in Donbass area?
     I think unification will benefit the citizens of Ukraine. I think separation will be a big mistake. If people in the east want to separate, maybe that's a good idea. But, it certainly should not be by force from outside, from Russia. Russian media is promoting the idea that the EU is a horrible place and Russia is wonderful place. It's ridiculous.

[Larry1]

Very recent news from Eastern Ukraine:

Fears of full-scale Russian invasion as eastern Ukraine cities toppled

Fears of further Russian land-grabs in Ukraine grew on Saturday as pro-Kremlin gunmen mounted a series of co-ordinated assaults on police stations and security buildings. The operations came as Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s foreign minister, said Ukraine was “demonstrating its inability to take responsibility for the fate of the country”.

In what many fear could be the prelude to a full invasion by Russian troops, masked men armed with Kalashnikovs and stun grenades seized two police stations and an intelligence headquarters in eastern Ukraine.

Believed to include professional soldiers in their ranks, the gunmen also set up checkpoints along local roads and began barricading the buildings. There were reports of gunfire, but no casualties.
The operations followed a period of relative calm in eastern Ukraine, where the pro-Russian movement that had occupied a number of town hall buildings appeared to have lost momentum.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10763008/Fears-of-full-scale-Russian-invasion-as-eastern-Ukraine-cities-toppled.html

Maybe those guys bought the Kalashnikovs and stun grenades at the same store from which Putin said the guys who took Crimea bought their uniforms.

[die_cast]

masked men armed with Kalashnikovs and stun grenades seized two police stations and an intelligence headquarters in eastern Ukraine.

There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.

[die_cast]

Lack of time.
...
It would be nice, but my life does not depend on it.

So why did you open this thread? 

[Patagonie]

There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.

Total BS.
There is a core of professionels from russian services (secret or military) and some locals.

[die_cast]

Total BS.
There is a core of professionels from russian services (secret or military) and some locals.

Oh, sure. KGB-agents are everywhere, how I could forget? 

[Photo Guy]

Did you see the interview of the individual from Tula? He was armed, in the government building in Donetsk. Today's news:

 Pro-Ukraine demonstrations held in Luhansk, Odesa, and Kryvyy Rih  Posted on April 13, 2014  by  marquepro                     

[whynotme]

Maybe those guys bought the Kalashnikovs and stun grenades at the same store from which Putin said the guys who took Crimea bought their uniforms.

Maybe. Maybe at the same store as americans who use the Kalashnikovs in Irak. Or maybe where this guy did.

[Photo Guy]

When armed gunmen from Russia take over a government building in Ukraine, shouldn't the Ukrainian government respond? Here is what I think is happening:
1- Putin decides he would like to include eastern Ukraine into his new Soviet state.
2- Putin sends armed militia to eastern Ukraine to create a separatist movement, and that includes taking over government buildings. He has support of a large percentage of the population.
3- Ukraine government responds by attacking the armed gunmen who have taken over the buildings.
4- Putin and Lavrov characterize this response as 'violence against Russian speakers', which they say is unacceptable.
5- Putin sends his military to 'save' the Russian speakers.
   It's the same false pretext that was used for Crimea.
I admit that many eastern Ukrainians are pro-Russian, especially the older folks who might have a nice fantasy about returning to the Soviet Union, BUT it's barbaric to throw the government out of office, just because Putin would like that. It's crazy. Some Ukrainians want a united Ukraine and others want to be a separate government, or a part of Russia. A united Ukraine makes the most sense to me. It looks like the armed gunman who want separation are from Russia. Do Ukrainians want another country to decide their future? Do eastern Ukrainians want to give up democracy? I think it is obvious to many Ukrainians that Russia is trying to take advantage of the situation. What is the best scenario for all Ukrainians?

[Photo Guy]

I think this video is truthful. It shows a highly organized armed militia attacking a government building. Sent by Putin? Probably. Sent by Kyiv? Probably not. Sent by Obama? No. NATO? Probably not. These people are very different from families at Euromaidan. Look at the truth:

http://say.tv/220792/video/embed/30293/0a490d90bbd88f74817289cfb23e4a3f

[missAmeno]

Oh, sure. KGB-agents are everywhere, how I could forget? 

Enough of BS, russians military is operating on territory of Ukraine.
And have some shame, do not mention Afganistan veterans.

[whynotme]

Enough of BS, russians military is operating on territory of Ukraine.
And have some shame, do not mention Afganistan veterans.

What CIA chief John Brennan did in Kiev last week?

[Belvis]

And have some shame, do not mention Afganistan veterans.

Are you sure you inderstand the situation?

[Photo Guy]

Brennan? Secret meeting? Do you think Ukrainians are puppets? or cattle? That's funny, you mention a secret meeting while Russian militia openly capture government buildings! That's a real contrast. Absurd. 

[die_cast]

russians military is operating on territory of Ukraine.

What events on territory of Ukraine are NOT operating by Russia?
Why USA and NATO military are not operating on territory of Ukraine? As we all can see - it's easy to get there for poor, weak and useless Russian military even with weapons. If Russians can - why NATO can not? Rhetorical questions.

[Muzh]

There are many posts about it on FB. Those people are not Russians. They are local, they are pro-Russian ("pro-Soviet" would be better to say), but they are Ukrainians.
Local militsia, local "Berkut" in some places support them. Those masked men are mostly veterans (who were in Afganistan, etc.) and ex-military men.

I don't know about you but, I do have a problem with people who spit on the country that gave them birth.
 
BTW, I have from very good sources that the Afgahn war vets in Ukraine are taking up arms to fight the Soviet Russian invasion. The masked men you see at these revolts are the thugs employees of Akhmetov.
 
Edit: Regardless of what Belvis believes. 

[Ranetka]

I don't know about you but, I do have a problem with people who spit on the country that gave them birth.
 

 

You forget that for most people involved that country would have been USSR. Where Russia and Ukraine were the same country. And it was good.

[Muzh]

You forget that for most people involved that country would have been USSR. Where Russia and Ukraine were the same country. And it was good.

You are forgetting that was more than 20 years ago. A whole generation has passed. And this new generation is doing the spitting.
 
Think about it.

[Ranetka]

You are forgetting that was more than 20 years ago. A whole generation has passed. And this new generation is doing the spitting.
 
Think about it.

I hope majority of them is older than 20.

[Muzh]

I hope majority of them is older than 20.

I bet many of them are in their 30s. I don't think many have such great recollection of the Soviet Union. Now, if we were talking of people in their mid 40s, I could understand.

[Steamer]

Not quite. Doesn't Ukraine have an interest in Ukraine?

Sure and about half of them want to go with Russia.

[BillyB]

half of them want to go with Russia.

They can voice their opinions in the upcoming UN monitored election. Problem is now they know they're going to lose so they're throwing a temper tantrum. Pro Russian Ukrainians were never in the majority and Yanukovych should've never been elected.


Putin needs to act quick and take Ukraine over. He has the backing of his people but the closer Ukraine comes to joining the West and NATO, the harder it is to win them back. Putin will go down in Russia's history as the man who lost the most ex Soviet bloc nations to the West. Taking gifts(Crimea) back after a bad breakup is nothing to be proud about.

[LiveFromUkraine]

They can voice their opinions in the upcoming UN monitored election. Problem is now they know they're going to lose so they're throwing a temper tantrum. Pro Russian Ukrainians were never in the majority and Yanukovych should've never been elected.


Putin needs to act quick and take Ukraine over. He has the backing of his people but the closer Ukraine comes to joining the West and NATO, the harder it is to win them back. Putin will go down in Russia's history as the man who lost the most ex Soviet bloc nations to the West. Taking gifts(Crimea) back after a bad breakup is nothing to be proud about.

Yanukovych wasn't elected only by Pro Russians so Pro Russians being a majority or not doesn't really matter.  Just because you don't like someone doesn't mean they weren't legally elected.


I am not a Republican or Democrat yet I will vote for the one who I think is the best candidate unless I don't vote at all.  That still doesn't make me a Republican or Democrat.


If you can see past your own biases, you might be able to see past the propaganda.  Instead, you are feeding right into what they want you to believe.  Sort of like some saying all Maiden protesters were the people wanting a better life while all the Pro Russians are terrorists or Russian military trying to unbalance the country. 

[Gator]

 
BTW, I have from very good sources that the Afgahn war vets in Ukraine are taking up arms to fight the Soviet Russian invasion. The masked men you see at these revolts are the thugs employees of Akhmetov.
 

The general evidence suggests IMO that the protesters taking control of government buildings in eastern Ukraine are supported by a Russian covert initiative.   Some of the protesters are likely Russians, yet a significant percentage could indeed be Ukrainian citizens. 


What percentage of the Ukrainians in eastern Ukraine support Ukraine?  Comparisons with the American revolution say the number of Ukrainian patriots could be less than half of the population. 


The concept of independence from Britain offered much hope of a better life for American citizens.   In fact, many had immigrated to America to escape certain British ways.  Thus, the American revolution of 1774-1783 seemingly would have been supported by a vast majority of those residing in the American colonies.  It is generally accepted that only 40% of Americans were patriots.  20% were loyalists (tories) who supported the British king.  And 40% were neutral and sat on the fence. 

How does that compare with Ukraine?   The Ukrainian citizens have already experienced 20 years of independence from Russia.  Did this independence bring a better life?   I say "no."   So maybe the  40% patriot percentage of the American revolution is too large for eastern Ukraine.  And maybe a large percentage of the protesters are Ukrainians who simply wish to reunite with Russia. 

Although vastly outnumbered against the most powerful military in the world, the American patriot prevailed. 

[BillyB]

A lot of people, on this forum, seems to be allowing their own biases dictate logic.

Logic, not bias, says if the majority of Ukrainians are pro Russian and pro Yanukovych, Putin would just need to sit back and let the Ukrainians elect another pro Russian candidate instead of doing what he's doing.


Anybody with half a brain knows Ukrainian elections are always rigged.  I've never started a hate campaign against Yanukovych in the past and not making statements now because I'm upset, it's a fact Ukrainian elections are rigged just as some protestors are paid.  It's also a fact anybody who comes close to beating Yanukovych is jailed or poisoned. If the man enjoys such popularity to win elections easily, he and his master, Putin, wouldn't need to do those things.

Although vastly outnumbered against the most powerful military in the world, the American patriot prevailed. 

Ukraine can do what Afghanistan did but needs the same level of support as America gave Afghanistan against a USSR invasion. Ukrainians have home field advantage if war comes.


Chances are Putin is hoping for a civil war and he will get it if there's any truth to half Ukraine being pro Russia. I doubt enough east Ukrainians are willing to split Ukraine and Putin will need to send Russian troops in to protect Russian citizens living in east Ukraine instead. If civil war happens, Putin will arm pro Russian Ukrainians and the West probably will only send food and clothes to pro West Ukrainians to support their fight. Lots of Ukrainians have to die before the West gives them weapons. Lots of Russian troops have to die before Putin backs off Ukraine.