The Propaganda War

[Gator]

My dear, I quoted Merkel.- just didn't have time in the morning to find the link (had to go to work)))

Part of what you quoted is correct, part incorrect.  Merkel is trying to prevent escalation of European bloodshed .   She and the Hungarian president met Monday and both agreed that "...economic sanctions imposed against Russia for its alleged meddling in Ukrainian affairs remained an essential pillar of Europe’s united front."   

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/2/2/merkel-seeks-to-wrest-hungary-from-russian-orbit.html

OTOH, some in Europe believe  Merkel is "dead wrong" for taking the military option off the table. 

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/merkel-dead-wrong-ukraine-311800

[Doll]

Ok, so Germany and Hungary which IS EU (this is what I posted)
What's the problem with Boe?
 

[Photo Guy]

The Budapest Memorandum has been trashed by Russia. Ukraine's eastern border is not secure. It's sovereignty is under attack.

[Brasscasing]

Germany will publically state they are not supplying lethal aid. They do this to avoid lingering accusations of imperialism. However, if they're so inclined to supply weapons they'll find a way as they did with Croatia in the early 90's.

I'd think they'd go through a third party in this regard. Merkel keeping Germany's diplomatic options open is actually not a bad idea as Putin still talks to Merkel. This will provide Putin with an out when his military house of cards crumbles.

I note that Merkel will be in Canada next week discussing a wide range of issues including Ukraine. Depending on whether or not the U.S. decides to supply weaponry my guess would be Canada and Germany might enter into some sort of third party arrangement. It won't be written that way but that'll be the end result.

Brass

[jone]

While your points are well noted, Brass,

I actually saw Germany's response as a political response due to domestic politics and the need to keep the government on the same page as the people.  There is not widespread support for military support or involvement in Germany.

Having said that, I agree that Merkel is the carrot, having said so above.

[BillyB]

OTOH, some in Europe believe  Merkel is "dead wrong" for taking the military option off the table. 

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/europes-east/merkel-dead-wrong-ukraine-311800

Months ago I read Merkel took military options off the table too. As Putin moves more into Ukraine, Obama will eventually change his stance and supply weapons and will have to pressure Europe to stand united on a military option just as he had to pressure them to apply sanctions last year. If it weren't for America pushing, the EU would do nothing. If the West supplies Ukraine with weapons, they must do it fast and not be conservative about it. Putin may try a full invasion to get this over with before Ukraine gets too many weapons in their hands.


In other news, Putin is trying to get friendly with Greece, a NATO member. When he sees cracks in the organization, he will exploit.

[Gator]

Ok, so Germany and Hungary which IS EU (this is what I posted)
What's the problem with Boe?

Boe needs to speak for herself, yet I agree with Boe's point:   a diplomatic solution is not possible because Putin will not negotiate in good faith.    In fact, this has already been attempted and it failed.


When Russia grabbed Crimea, Ukraine tried to seek a diplomatic solution, i. e., Merkel's way.    Diplomacy got no where.   The same is happening for eastern Ukraine.   

In fact, not coming close to a diplomatic solution in Crimea encouraged the rebels in eastern Ukraine to make their move.

I disagree with your statement that the EU wants a diplomatic solution to avoid pressure. 

I believe Merkel's reason is not "pressure" but knowing Putin is a SOB, would never back down if NATO supplied weapons,  and instead escalate to the point of a real war.   

Doll, what do you expect will be the final outcome in Ukraine?

[Brasscasing]

While your points are well noted, Brass,

I actually saw Germany's response as a political response due to domestic politics and the need to keep the government on the same page as the people.  There is not widespread support for military support or involvement in Germany.

Having said that, I agree that Merkel is the carrot, having said so above.

I agree with you Jone. The German population itself has a lingering collective guilt regarding WW2. Just about all their domestic and foreign diplomacy reflects that to some degree. There is an almost ingrained avoidance of giving any country the ability to criticize them as being militaristic.

Brass

[jone]

Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 

[Brasscasing]

Months ago I read Merkel took military options off the table too. As Putin moves more into Ukraine, Obama will eventually change his stance and supply weapons and will have to pressure Europe to stand united on a military option just as he had to pressure them to apply sanctions last year. If it weren't for America pushing, the EU would do nothing. If the West supplies Ukraine with weapons, they must do it fast and not be conservative about it. Putin may try a full invasion to get this over with before Ukraine gets too many weapons in their hands.


In other news, Putin is trying to get friendly with Greece, a NATO member. When he sees cracks in the organization, he will exploit.

I posted months ago the U.S. is the key. As the leader of the free world, if Obama gives the O.K., the rest will follow and the floodgates will open.

Brass

[Doll]

Boe needs to speak for herself, yet I agree with Boe's point:   a diplomatic solution is not possible because Putin will not negotiate in good faith.    In fact, this has already been attempted and it failed.


 

I didn't ask for HER opinion- Read my post please.

[Boethius]

Whether or not you asked for my opinion is irrelevant.  Your point was not supplying weapons was due to the EU not wanting "pressure".  That is not the reason.

[AC]

I posted months ago the U.S. is the key. As the leader of the free world, if Obama gives the O.K., the rest will follow and the floodgates will open.

This is the key.  Without a strong POTUS Ukraine will likely fall.  The USA is focused on ISIS.  I really wouldn't be surprised if somehow Putler is supplying ISIS through a 3rd party.

[cc3]

Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 

I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.

[cc3]

Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 

I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.

[AkMike]

I would like to see what 'Warthogs' could do against  T-72's.

 Bang flop,  DRT

[Hammer2722]

Still,

I'd love to see what some of those Leopards could do against the T72s. 

 

Or Brit Challengers?

[Brasscasing]

I'm shaking my head. Read this article (it's worth the time).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-government-propaganda-stokes-anti-west-sentiment-1.2944274

Now watch how a U.S. commercial is altered...

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2651997771/

This is but one example and the Russian people are being subjected to it 24/7.

When the time comes I hope the Allies don't let the criminals responsible for perpetrating this kind of subversive activity on their own people slip through the cracks. They need to be hunted down and held responsible for their actions as any of the other Russian war criminals would/will be.

Brass

[Anotherkiwi]

I'm shaking my head. Read this article (it's worth the time).

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russian-government-propaganda-stokes-anti-west-sentiment-1.2944274

Now watch how a U.S. commercial is altered...

http://www.cbc.ca/player/News/ID/2651997771/

This is but one example and the Russian people are being subjected to it 24/7.

When the time comes I hope the Allies don't let the criminals responsible for perpetrating this kind of subversive activity on their own people slip through the cracks. They need to be hunted down and held responsible for their actions as any of the other Russian war criminals would/will be.

Brass

That is just disgusting.  It's a shame that Fat Head won't be able to take legal action because whoever made the alterations will officially be some completely unknown cyber geek living in Nowherecaniskibecauseitstoocoldgorod, northern Siberia - and he doesn't have a phone.

[AkMike]

The problem is that the directed at audience will lap this nasty ad up like a dog and vomit.

[AkMike]

Diagnosis: A Great Big LIAR
30.01.2015 | 15:20

Konstantin Goncharov


UNIAN asked a group of psychiatrists and psychologists to diagnose serial fibber Vladimir Putin. The result - he’s a liar all right, but there’s method to his deceit.

"Putin likes Goebbels, and he’s never hidden the fact, calling him a very talented man. In my opinion, Putin is not a smart man, really. If he were smarter, he would behave smarter,” says Gluzman.

Nevertheless, he thinks that when speaking of the “NATO legion” fighting in Ukraine, the Russian President expects only his people to believe this. “Rather, 80% [of the population], his supporters,” Gluzman believes.

Moreover, the psychiatrist is positive that soon the Russian leader will start voicing more primitive messages.
Read more on UNIAN: http://www.unian.info/politics/1038364-diagnosis-a-great-big-liar.html

[jone]

Can anyone put in layman's terms what Asperger's Syndrome is?

http://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/563053898135797763

[AkMike]

Sure!
 It means he nuts.. 

[Gator]

Brass, Incredible!  The sad part is that most of Russia believes it. 

[Brasscasing]

Can anyone put in layman's terms what Asperger's Syndrome is?

http://twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/563053898135797763

Found an article in USA with more info...

Pentagon 2008 study claims Putin has Asperger's syndrome

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2015/02/04/putin-aspergers-syndrome-study-pentagon/22855927/

 Basing a diagnosis on behavioral indicators without physical examination is a bit of a stretch if you ask me.

IMO He exhibits behavior consistent with his past and present environment meaning he came up through the ranks of the KGB and Russian political arena with the normal occupational hazards associated with same.

So, paranoid? You bet. Control freak? Definitely.  Aspergers? Would need to be confirmed with standard tests before I'd be on board with that one.

Brass