The Propaganda War

[Boethius]

As far as I'm concerned, the west never cared for Ukraine.

That must be why Western governments and Westerners gave them money and often, moved to Ukraine, often giving up lucrative careers to do so, in order to establish the democratic advancement of the society, such as writing Ukraine's constitution, setting up an independent supreme court, teaching and funding journalists in independent journalism, creating think tanks and independent centres of academic study, teaching societal activism, etc.

The US is not into creating Democracy or a good life for Ukrainians, they just use them in a Proxy war against Russia.

Ukraine already is, and was, democratic.  Unlike Russia, it is not authoritarian.  That was thanks to seed money from the U.S., the EU, and George Soros, and the work of thousands of Ukrainians.

The Ukrainians who bought into this Maidan stupidity is now Learning a lesson. Ukraine will never join the EU or NATO.

Euromaidan was about corruption.  The EU was just the vehicle to stop that corruption.  Euromaidan was never about NATO.  Never, ever.  In fact, until Russia invaded Ukraine, a significant majority of Ukrainians never, ever, voted in favour of joining NATO.  That is why it is a false argument and always was.

They will be useful idiots until a New crisis somewhere else happens and the world will forget about them. What they will be left With however, is a big debt and oligarchs stealing the rest of their Resources along With their masters, the multinational Companies, sucking the country dry.

Your hero Putin hopes so.  Personally, I don't view multinationals as evil. 

Russia should never forget their hate.

You need to stop reading Russian propaganda.  There was never hate toward Russia.  Until Russia decided to invade Ukraine.  Even now, Russians who visit Ukraine would find no negative feelings toward them.  My Russian MIL has no problems living in fascist central, aka Kyiv.

The idiots who thought they could just get into the EU and be carried through life on a gold plate needs to learn their lesson! Europe has more than enough problems With it's own failuring countries as well as the freeloaders from the Baltics. Handing over billions upon billions to stupid Ukronazis will never be accepted. Leave than up to the Americans who apparently have unlimited dollars to spare.

There you go again with unfounded allegations.   How small is your world!

[Boethius]

Incidentally, you may want to have a look at the number of wars Russia has been involved in since the collapse of the USSR, versus how many all those vampire second tier countries (Baltics, Ukraine) have been.

[southernX]

mendy .I asked again, "so, they know about Russian troops in Ukraine?"

"Absolutely," was his reply. He went on to explain that until stopped, they will never admit the truth because a lie is okay if it advances the state.

They know.

They understand.

one would have to think a reasonable amount of the population is aware i agree ,
question is even ''knowing '' about it , what can/are they able to effectivly do ??even if they so wish ?

i venture not much , its not in the mind set from my experience

SX

[fathertime]

I still discount it.  It's about as realisitc as Saddam's "WMD".

That is quite an indictment against the USA and our 'reasoning' for doing what we have in Iraq.  After all, the war in Iraq and aftermath have led to 500,000 dead at least...Russia is small potatoes compared to us...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War


Fathertime!   

[Boethius]

True, and I was always against the war in Ukraine.  But then, so were a significant number of Americans.  I don't see that same level of dissent among Russians.

[The Natural]

Ukraine already is, and was, democratic.  Unlike Russia, it is not authoritarian.  That was thanks to seed money from the U.S., the EU, and George Soros, and the work of thousands of Ukrainians.

Seed Money? Try seed debt. Interesting to see that George Soros, the warmonger and opportunist, is one of Your heroes. But what can one expect from a person that supports the nazi punishment Battalions which acts like ISIS in eastern Ukraine.



These are not Russians as far as I can tell.

You need to stop reading Russian propaganda. 

There you go again with unfounded allegations.   How small is your world!

You expect me to stop Reading whatever I read because you say I NEED to?
Unfounded allegations? Small world? Everything you wrote is unfounded. And I Guess my world is about the same size as Yours.

[mendeleyev]

I am really puzzled as to the confusion. Mr. Putin has made clear references to his thoughts on русский мир (Russian world) which are no secret.

When he, or those who have permission to speak and write for him, argue that modern day boundaries are invalid because there was no Yalta conference styled division of territory at the end of the Cold War, he is not being shy at explanations on why he considers that Ukrainian boundaries (and others) to be still open for debate.

His statements on Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, and the Baltic states come straight from this concept. He views the Russian world as having been broken up prematurely, and therefore it is Russia's right and heritage to reclaim what is theirs. We don't need to speculate; it is on Russian TV, newspapers, and magazines.

Follow the money? To an extent, yes, but not entirely. Accredited foreign and domestic journalists are invited, by rotation, to observe the opening of many government meetings. In Security Council discussions prior to dismissal of observers, there was no secret about the supposed amounts of money that would be saved if rental payments to Ukraine were no longer needed for the Black Sea fleet.

Curiously, as unmarked "little green men" poured out of unmarked helicopters over Crimea, none of the Security Council discussions seemed to count the cost of such actions were the rest of the world to protest. But, there was a great deal of discussion regarding the gains to the Russian economy if those rental payments were used elsewhere in the general budget.

As Mr Putin revealed recently on Russian television, the government actually paid for professional polls taken across Crimea to determine the outcome if a referendum were to be introduced regarding the future of Crimea. Significantly, this was done while events on Maidan were still in the earlier stages, and the outcome was far from being determined. Those polls revealed overwhelming support by key sectors, and thus it is understandable how and why the Tatar minority (true and original Crimeans) were sidelined during the process by shutting down their television station and newspaper, and refusing to allow Tatar leaders from reentry after they had attended meetings in Kyiv.

As added insurance, an overnight coup ousted a pro-Russian Crimea parliament, including its pro-Russian prime minister and cabinet, and the next morning a new prime minister and cabinet were introduced--without a single vote being cast by citizens of Crimea. So much for introducing democracy to the situation, albeit the Kremlin loves to tout the outcome of the referendum. We would be remiss if not pointing out that the new PM was a Russian citizen, not of Ukrainian citizenry, a violation of both the Crimean and Ukrainian constitutions.

Then just to be safe, the referendum ballot had only two questions. One was for the option to join Russia. The other was to succeed from Ukraine and be semi-independent under the protection of Russia. There was no option to remain as an autonomous republic within Ukraine. Was someone afraid of giving ethnic Ukrainians, a sizable minority, a viable option, too?

Again, following the money, the country of Ukraine represents the largest and most productive agricultural sector to the Eurasian Union. Belarus produces bountiful carrots (among other things) along with strong tractors, but Belorussian farm production capabilities are dwarfed by Ukraine's potential. When there were fears of Ukraine abandoning proposed membership with that Union, and instead perhaps moving toward the EU (which I never thought that they would be accepted as full members), there was widespread panic inside the Russian government.

Putin had always disliked Yanukovich personally, but at least he was somewhat aligned with Moscow. The prospect of a Ukrainian state aligned with Europe was too much for the Kremlin to bear. Yanukovich's rescue and transport out of Ukraine by Russian special forces was not only the rescue of an ally, but the removal of at least one irritation. The resulting shunning and sidelining of Yanukovich after his settling in Russia has been telling.

The eventual capture and annexation of Odessa (god forbid) will be of both historic and geographic importance. While Odessa has both Greek and Tatar roots, it was part of the Turkish empire for hundreds of years. That naturally begs an explanation from Russians as to why it is okay to reference modern day Russia back to the old Empire, but such seems not permitted when discussing the Turks and their successors. 

As to the nonsense of there being no Russian troops in Eastern Ukraine, I am tired of explaining the obvious. The concept of tossing pearls to swine comes to mind immediately. If you ask most Russians, troops there are needed to "protect the Donbas children." Whether they are already there or not, despite massive video and photographic evidence, is something most Russians know, but are not yet willing to openly admit.

Those who live in the region however are no fools: whether pro-Russian or pro-Ukrainian, they know what they see with their own eyes. Other than the paid Kremlin trolls, it is usually keyboard pounding Westerners who remain blinded, and thus to which I challenge to get off your friggin' fat ass and go see for yourself if you are so damn certain in your ignorance.

[Boethius]

Seed Money? Try seed debt. Interesting to see that George Soros, the warmonger and opportunist, is one of Your heroes. But what can one expect from a person that supports the nazi punishment Battalions which acts like ISIS in eastern Ukraine.

I don't recall ever posting Soros is one of my heroes.  However, there is no doubt the funds he used were instrumental in funding several important democratic institutions in Ukraine.


I also don't recall ever posting that anyone in Kyiv is my hero.  My history of posts would indicate quite the contrary.  But Ukrainians soldiers and battalions are hardly "ISIS" and that type of hyperbole merely demonstrates that you have already lost the argument.

You expect me to stop Reading whatever I read because you say I NEED to?
Unfounded allegations? Small world? Everything you wrote is unfounded. And I Guess my world is about the same size as Yours.

Your reading is propaganda.  You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for it.  It is laughable.


Your allegations are unfounded.  And no, the amount of vitriol you post indicates to me your inner world (that is the world I am referring to) is small.  Not particularly interesting to me.

[The Natural]

Your reading is propaganda.  You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for it.  It is laughable.

And I find Your propaganda laughable! Only it's not something to laugh about when Your propaganda supports atrocities. I take a stand against atrocities.

Your allegations are unfounded.  And no, the amount of vitriol you post indicates to me your inner world (that is the world I am referring to) is small.  Not particularly interesting to me.

Talk about losing the argument. Here you go on With personal insults (or try to). Different standards for me than you, it seems.

Not interesting for you? It wasn't meant to be interesting for you! I'm just stating my opinion. But it's certainly interesting enough for you to always spend a lot of time on my opinions. Your actions doesn't quite fit Your spin.

[Изумруд]

And I find Your propaganda laughable! Only it's not something to laugh about when Your propaganda supports atrocities. I take a stand against atrocities.

Natural, have you ever lived in Russia?  Do you speak Russian?

[The Natural]

Pro Kiev battalion commander: 99% of people I know in Donbass hate Ukraine by now:

And he also talks about how the People now in charge are twice as corrupt as Yanukovitch.

[sleepycat]

Your reading is propaganda.  You have fallen hook, line, and sinker for it.  It is laughable.


Your allegations are unfounded.  And no, the amount of vitriol you post indicates to me your inner world (that is the world I am referring to) is small.  Not particularly interesting to me.

Ouch!!! 

[Photo Guy]

About half the people in Donbas hate Kyiv now, because they have believed propaganda from the Kremlin- that Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis and the new government is fascist.

Here's a new article that supports my view about Putin's mindset. Putin is trying to come to grips with Kyiv's turn towards the West, democracy, and 'de-communization'. Russia has its cultural roots in Kyiv. St. Volodymyr. Puytin's roots have turned away from the old Soviet state, while taking steps to be more like the West. A civilized course. I think Putin feels like his own grandfather is rejecting him and his old Soviet ways...  On an emotional level, this must be deeply disturbing for him. Intellectually, I think he's in denial. If there is strength and validity in the old Soviet structure and philosophies, Putin would NOT need to disseminate all of the severe propaganda about alleged 'fascism'. see:
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/jun/11/moscow-vladimir-the-great-statue-public-outcry
Prince Volodymyr was not a Communist. He became a Christian. And there's that first name. So now there will be a gigantic statue placed in Moscow. Putin might feel like this connects Russia with Ukraine in the present. Everyone in Russia knows Volodymyr was centered in Kyiv. So I think Putin is attempting to promote the propaganda that Moscow is more in tune with this historical figure, than Kyiv. Winning the propaganda war is crucial, because the truth is that Prince Vlad would have more in common with the new government in Kyiv, and would not see Moscow or Putin as a champion of Christianity. Putin criticizes the new government in Kyiv. The world must counter this with criticisms of Moscow's government. On the world stage, there is too little talk of political ideologies. Poroshenko should openly confront Putin about his political philosophies. Those are the real issues at the heart of this war.

[JayH]

About half the people in Donbas hate Kyiv now, because they have believed propaganda from the Kremlin- that Ukrainian nationalists are Nazis and the new government is fascist.
.

PG--you have taken  a bit of a caning upthread- and I have no wish to join in on that.
I generally agree with the tenor of your posts--but you are getting in the habit of reaching conclusions that ignore all the other evidence and material available.
The part I quoted above is an example-- of a conclusion based on no actual evidence.While it is a possibility that some think like that-- half is way to big a stretch-and that is based on the material available.
I have had reason to constantly  disagree with BillyB making statements about theoretically possible scenarios that are at odds with the facts -- and to a degree you are falling into the same trap.
At a guess--you are not reading links posted by others( BillyB is the king of not reading other material)-- and much of that material would have shown you why some of your conclusions upthread are  in the not likely category.

[Photo Guy]

My conclusions are not based on anything here at RWD.
Instead, I mostly rely on a variety of news articles and youtube interviews.

How about a conversation about Putin's possible motives for placing a huge statue of Prince Volodymyr in a prominent location in Moscow?

[JayH]

My conclusions are not based on anything here at RWD.
Instead, I mostly rely on a variety of news articles and youtube interviews.

How about a conversation about Putin's possible motives for placing a huge statue of Prince Volodymyr in a prominent location in Moscow?

There are some interesting links to material that gets to the roots of Putins evil aspirations and bigger picture issues.I have posted many( I am not alone in that!) that get to the heart of many issues.
As an example of what made me post today--perpetrating the myth that there is even 50% support in the Donbass cannot go unchallenged-the fact is the only credible polling showed little support for non Kiev regimes.
The Kremlin relies on repeating it's lies to try and give credibility to them-- and there are many examples of mainstream western media picking them up and running with them.
As an example-in the early days of the invasion-the lazy western media used what is now a totally discredited source in RT to report "news" in eastern Ukraine and on the Crimea - and it took months for them to get a more accurate picture of what was really going on.
At that time-average people in the west had quite the wrong idea about the conflict--which is exactly what the Kremlin wanted and is still trying to do today.
My overall point is this--your heart is 100% in the right place-no doubt about it- so  anything that diverts from the real issues or raises doubts by citing already disproven theories-- is not going to help Ukraine's cause.

[Photo Guy]

I hope you right about that. The 50% remark was not based on
a known poll. Just my general impression of
locals in Mariupol. I think there a lot of zombies there,
marching to the sound of Putin's propaganda.
I do respect your views on this.

[mendeleyev]

As I know some of those supposed "fascists" to which the Natural seems to unnaturally mistake, I have not met any racists or fascists among those groups. Most of the fascists I meet seem to be thriving quite nicely in a place where they are welcome--Russia.

[mendeleyev]

Yesterday both the First Channel and NTB ran a news story on how some 60 million German-Americans are ready to succeed from the USA to establish a pro-German Nazi nation.

After laughing myself off the sofa with the idea that major Russian networks would go live with such stupidity, and the reporters then go home to eat dinner and look in the mirror after reading such manufactured nonsense, I wondered where they came up with the "60 million" Germans living in the USA figure.

There is always a gullible public, and sure enough this afternoon an established Russian businessman mentioned the story and then asked me about it. With a straight face of all things. I was tempted to tell him that no, it is 60 million Scots who are ready to start wearing men's skirts to work, but decided to try and explain how will that claim it to anyone who knows about the USA.

I was sitting in the waiting area of Echo Moscow Radio and enjoying their view of the skyline via New Arbat, while passing the time by watching the evening news. On the First Channel, almost 24 minutes was devoted to Ukraine, a surprising amount of the video behind the anchors being stock footage of battles for the Donetsk airport months ago.

There was the obligatory coverage of Mr. Putin's meeting with the Pope with the explanation that the Pope "admires" Vova, although no documentation of that assertion was supplied.

Then came the nightly segment on the USA. I cannot think of a single US television network that devotes an entire 6-8 minute segment to Russia, or any other country for that matter, but apparently the on-going race riots in St Louis and Detroit, plus an expose of America's most filthy prisons is big news these days.

Oh, wait, you say that there are no on-going race riots in St Louis and Detroit? Hmm.....

[The Natural]

As I know some of those supposed "fascists" to which the Natural seems to unnaturally mistake, I have not met any racists or fascists among those groups. Most of the fascists I meet seem to be thriving quite nicely in a place where they are welcome--Russia.

Haha, Yeah sure, spoken like a real radical. I know how you love Your Azov pals, even With their nazi slogans tatooed on their bodies you still deny what they are. Continue With Your long russophobe rants, I don't read much of it though.

[mendeleyev]

I missed the part where you used facts to refute my post. Would you remind repeating those for me?

[The Natural]

I missed the part where you used facts to refute my post. Would you remind repeating those for me?

Oh really? I didn't notice you using any facts either. But I Guess there's different standards for you, right? Besides, watch the video added, before Your response here, I will add.

[mendeleyev]

Ah, you are too dumb to notice. I get it.

Okay, go back and read about the evening newscast, which you labeled as a "rant" by the way. Now, please be so kind, even though it will be a mental stretch for you, to prove that a US network does dedicate a nightly segment to Russian news, validate the report that 60 million German-Americans are planning to succeed and begin a new Nazi nation, etc.

Can you handle that?

[jone]

I would just like to assign a post here to mention that I am entirely in favor of rooting out the Nazis in Ukraine.  Yes, this is a nation who lost enough of its citizens to populate five of its cities in WWII to the Nazi atrocities.  It would be Natural for the population to embrace the Nazi ideals and to create a government tied to such standards as death camps and a master race.

Anyone who has visited Ukraine, or, I daresay, lived there for a period of time will instantly recognize the Nazi tendencies of the Rada and the average Joe (Stalin) Sixpack on the streets.  After all, the lawmakers in this Rada who, with very few exceptions except those legislators who live in territory now claimed by Russia and its minions, are the same that were there under Yanukovych, surely had Nazi tendencies two years ago.

So, for all you baby killers and soldiers who hide behind babushkas so as not to get killed by the valiant insurgents, I congratulate you for hiding your Nazi sympathies from the West.  If you did not hide them so well, our intrepid reporters would identify you immediately.  You are too clever for us.  Fortunately we have members on this forum who will hunt you down and expose your true Natural tendencies.

[jone]

Ah, you are too dumb to notice. I get it.

Okay, go back and read about the evening newscast, which you labeled as a "rant" by the way. Now, please be so kind, even though it will be a mental stretch for you, to prove that a US network does dedicate a nightly segment to Russian news, validate the report that 60 million German-Americans are planning to succeed and begin a new Nazi nation, etc.

Can you handle that?

Most of the Germans I know have already succeeded in the United States.  I know of very few who would choose to secede.